The Diary of a CEOJames Smith: How To Create The Life You’ve Always Wanted | E120
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,112 words- 0:00 – 2:07
Intro
- JSJames Smith
We've spoken about quite a few things today that I've never really-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JSJames Smith
... spoken about.
- SBSteven Bartlett
James Smith, the world's fastest growing online personal trainer. But he's much more than that.
- JSJames Smith
Like a driving instructor, I should not exist in your life in six months. Why is it so acceptable for people to invest money into fitness professionals and them still be there three years later? 'Cause if you do your job well enough, your client leaves. If people were truly happy, I would've been, "Shut the hell up then," and I wouldn't have experienced so much growth from pointing out the inadequacies. I don't like people that presents a solution without education. It breaks me to think of the tens of thousands of people who gave up on their ambitions because they went the wrong way for advice. And when they fail the plan or don't finish it, they blame themselves. Where the hell have you come to the conclusion that you would not succeed following your passion? I just wish that maybe earlier on someone had said to me, "Okay, you're not doing well here, but this doesn't mean you're not intelligent. There is something else that you could very well at."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Quick one. Can you do me a favor if you're listening to this and hit the subscribe button, the follow button, wherever you're listening to this podcast? Thank you so much. James Smith, the world's fastest growing online personal trainer. But he's much more than that. He's an author of three books. His third one's about to come out. He's unapologetic. He is outspoken, and he says it how it is. And that's meant that he now reaches millions of people online every single week. Now I had an expectation on James. I've seen him on social media, I've seen the types of things he says when he's on telly. But the guy I met today, deeply self-aware, unbelievably humble, and so incredibly wise. And because he's so honest and straight talking, I walk away with some lessons that I genuinely believe will stay with me for a lifetime. You are gonna love this one. Trust me when I say that. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music)
- 2:07 – 7:24
Your early years
- SBSteven Bartlett
James, you've listened to this podcast before. Um, so y- you probably know that I tend to start in a similar place. I tend to ask my guests about their early years. But when I was reading about comments you'd made about your early years, one of the things you said is it's not- not much very interesting happened.
- JSJames Smith
Yeah. I mean, it's one of those things where it's like ther- there's so many things to talk about. Let's not go there. As a young child in school, didn't have a huge amount of friends, and I think that primary and secondary school, if you had to pick five people that are never gonna accomplish anything in life, I would've been in that- that group of people. Uh, I was diagnosed with learning difficulties, which kind of been disputed. I remember Jimmy Carr talking about getting that laptop, and it's true, he had to see an educational psychologist, and at the end they were like, "James' reading and writing speed is very quick. We think he's just lazy." And throughout school, I was in the cloakroom, and they give you extra time on exams, which I didn't need because I was so bored. I'd be done with the exam 20 minutes before everyone else and just sat there, not through being intelligent but like, "I can't be bothered with this." And a lot of behavioral issues at school. Uh, if I look back at that, I almost feel like my brain was only functioning at 20% throughout the whole education system, probably up until college and dropping out of university in my first year.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you were adopted?
- JSJames Smith
Yes. This is a open topic. And I even, before this podcast, I was like, "I wonder if any other high achievers are adopted." I found Steve Jobs, Jamie Foxx, uh, Marilyn Monroe was in the list. And I was trying to figure out if I could draw any, you know, relations to other people that have done it. I've even read books where someone on Instagram is like, "Oh, if you're adopted, you should read this, because it resonated with me." And I bought these books and talks about abandonment and senses of, you know, unfulfillment. I didn't- I didn't really relate with any of those topics. So, I think that as far as a kind of dream adoption story, I ended up in the Smith family. You know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JSJames Smith
Blonde hair, blue eyes. Mom and Dad still together now. Each other's first girlfriend and boyfriend. So I was incredibly fortunate with that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Having come all this way in your life e- and learned a ton from the books you've written, and I know that's such an introspective process, but all the people you've spoken to, all the DMs you must get, are there any sort of dots you've connected now that have made you realize that being adopted was in any way consequential to who you were to become?
- JSJames Smith
It's difficult. I'm still discovering it. Uh, you know, with relationships, I think it's a very interesting one. I've had conversations with other adopted people and they- they say too, like, "You become very attached to people very quickly," because, you know, it's a very strange thing never seeing a blood relative before. So, you might look at your parents and other people look at their parents and, you know, uncle, they see features. I've never had that. And you never feel like your parents aren't your parents, because I'm a strong believer they're who bring you up. But then, sometimes in relationships, maybe I'm a bit cold, maybe I'm a bit too intense. I'm always judging that and over-analyzing it. And people ask me as well, they're like, "Oh, do you think you're this way 'cause you're adopted?" And suddenly you're overthinking a lot.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JSJames Smith
You're like, "Is it? Is it not? Is it something that's a big part or a small part?" And it's very difficult to get answers for that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you go through school and you go through, like, early- the early teen years and then you've got people telling you you've got a learning, um, issue and then they're giving you special treatment and all these things, at that part in your life, having like, bounced around a little bit and not really fit anywhere in terms of the system, do you think in hindsight you- you were learning that you were, like, not good enough?
- JSJames Smith
100%. And I think that I definitely wore that for the next four, five years, where I thought, "The only place I'm gonna be accepted is a bottom position in a corporate."... gig. 20K a year, I started off on 18. Sales department, I'm gonna have to cold call people and kind of work my way up slowly. So, that's what I did for my early 20s. Worked in a sales department, 18K basic, then jumped to another one for 20K basic. I thought, "Well, I- I'll do this for five to 10 years, get to a management role. Do that for five to 10 years, maybe get nearer directorship role." And I think that's what a lot of people who have failed the education system think. They're like, "Well, that's what people do. Oh, I might try recruitment," which I also did for a year.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
And everyone said, "Oh, you'll earn good money, but you'll hate it." And I'm, I'm 22, I'm like, "How can you earn good money and hate it?" I did recruitment, it was good money and I hated it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JSJames Smith
So, it was, it's one of those things where definitely I do feel that if we paint people... When we see people get bad grades at school, we should, you know, have a more open conversation about, "Okay, you're not doing well at this, what do you think you'd be good at?" And, um, I mean, even in the last 10 years. "Don't play video games, there's no future in that." No, there is.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JSJames Smith
You know? Don't spend all day on your computer, there's no future in that. No, there is.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
So, I just wish that maybe earlier on someone had said to me, "Okay, you're not doing well here, but this doesn't mean you're not intelligent. There is something else in a lateral, you know, pathway that you could do very well
- 7:24 – 11:24
What would you say to people that are climbing in a job they hate?
- JSJames Smith
at."
- SBSteven Bartlett
What would you say to someone... And I imagine there's a lot of people listening to this now, who are driving in their cars now on the motorway, 'cause I see them upload the podcast when they're like driving, they're on the treadmill on Monday morning, et cetera. And they're in that job where it... But there's that voice inside them that's saying, "Do you know what? You could have done more, and you, you've got so much more potential." But they've believed the narrative. The like corporate, just climb your way up some shit ladder.
- JSJames Smith
I've two answers to that. The first, so many people are hitting quotas working for someone else's goal. So, in recruitment, people go, "Ah, I just don't think, you know, I'll be able to accomplish much on my own." I go, "Okay, but you're doing something you don't enjoy and you're exceeding at it. You're excelling at it. You've hit quota for three years in something you're not passionate about. Where the hell have you come to the conclusion that you would not succeed following your passion? How have you come to that conclusion? That's ridiculous." Now, the second thing is, although this has been disputed, I'm a big believer, and I'm sure you will too, in income society that after you earn a certain amount of money, there's a tapering off effect. And it's very difficult to, to say that because straight away people's defense is, "Well, it's okay for you because you've, you've gone past that, that curve. I'm still on the way up." And I say to them, "You'll probably work in your career for another 10 years, because you think in 10 years time, you're gonna have enough money to eventually be happy with your situation. What if that bet is wrong? What if you've just lost 10 years and you're not happy?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
What if... I think the two people... There's two ways of thinking. Some people think it's an exponential return, where they'll go through misery for long enough and then boom, they're just happy. I said to them, "How do you think millionaire CEOs wake up out of bed like, 'Oh, my God, life is so good'"?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JSJames Smith
It's the exact same, they wake up same as you, "Oh, I can't wait to have a cup of coffee." And then the other one is more of a linear scale, where they go, "Okay, 30K this much happiness, 40K this much, 50K this much." I say to them, "What if in 10 years time you're wrong?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
10 years is a lot more than 10 years between 30 and 40. 10 years is a lot more than 10 years between 20 and 30. Imagine... Always think in the back of your mind that that bet is gonna be wrong. And if you could fast-forward to 10 years time and see that you made the wrong bet, how would you feel?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
Now, think about that before you make a decision.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's so true. You know, I... Uh, link up, link up TV did a, published a video with me the other day and the ti- they put the title as like, "Money Won't Make You Happy," which is not what I said, but I understand why they're doing it, we've got to get them clicks. And, um, I did see, I saw the comments, it said a very similar thing. It was like, "Oh, it's easy for you to say." I'm like, "Well, it would take someone that's made a million to tell you that a million isn't it." I couldn't have told you when I was broke.
- JSJames Smith
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like, so... And also, I have no incentive to, to like put you off, uh, getting rich. I'm just telling you and letting you know that up here, my happiness didn't scale proportionate to my wealth.
- JSJames Smith
Exactly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Uh, to a point. So, as you say, 75K per household, apparently it starts to plateau. Just letting you know.
- JSJames Smith
I always say to people, it's very important they understand this, all wins feel the same. All wins.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's true.
- JSJames Smith
You don't get an Uber surcharge on dopamine. The way our brain chemistry works, you know, okay, pleasure, serotonin, dopamine, you don't get a 1.7 surcharge because you're wealthy.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- JSJames Smith
So, you know, when you secure a deal at mid-level, high level, or you know, stock exchange level, it's the same dopamine response. And it's one of those things where people go, "Oh, my God. Okay, yeah." And buying a car, whether it's a Lamborghini or a brand new Golf, people cannot comprehend that that win feels the same. And I love to tell them, I'm like, "No, it exactly is." And when people set goals, and I don't like the conversation going into fitness, but they say, "I want to lose 10 KG." I'm like, "Lose 1 KG, damn it."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
And then celebrate that, because that feeling of stepping on the scale and accomplishing something is the same at 1 KG as it is at 10.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
You've just denied yourself a long way before you're allowed to be happy, which I think is what human beings are really bad at.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
We won't let ourselves celebrate wins at the level we choose. Not only do they feel the same, we get to determine where those wins are.
- 11:24 – 19:44
Did you find success wasn't what you thought it would be?
- JSJames Smith
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did you find that success wasn't what you thought it would be?
- JSJames Smith
Well, this is interesting, because... And people don't believe me when I say this, I never intended for this. I never had dreams of being what I would, I would consider it wealthy. And people will watch this and they'll go, "No, no, no. The other guy's wealthy." And I'll say, "No, no, no. And from a subjective standpoint, I've been able to buy my friends and my family dinner without having to check my bank account for like four years."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
That's something that I didn't have for the 28 before it. That's wealthy.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs)
- JSJames Smith
Right? And, um, it, it's one of those things that I never really wanted. If I'm completely honest, my goal as a personal trainer was 10 clients, three sessions a week, pay me well. I don't want 30 clients doing 30 hours, I want 10 that see me three times a week. I'll be in London or I'll be in Sydney. If they skip a session that's £150 an hour, they won't mind 'cause they're good high-level clients. That was it. That was the goal.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What happened?
- JSJames Smith
I became process-orientated probably 2015, where on social media, for the first time... Investments don't really interest me that much. And this is another crazy thing people hate me about. The social media investment did. I will post something useful every day here for years, 10 years or so. And in 10 years time, "Hey, guys, here's a book." Ching. Make 20 grand, whatever. And as I was posting into email marketing, I wrote email marketing emails for 10 months before I made a sale. If you'd met me nine months in, you would have thought I was fucking insane. "Hey, James, what are you doing?" "I'm writing emails." "To who?" "300 people." "What about?" "My online PT program." "How many of them buying it?" "Oh, none so far." Social media, three years in. "What are you doing?" "I'm posting every day." "How much money have you made?" "None." People would have gone, "You're fucking mental." Nowadays, they go, "Okay, fair play." But the in- the, the momentum that I wanted, I just wanted a life where I didn't have to seek clients, they'd seek me. I just wanted a life where I could post about a book and money would appear in my account. And after doing that for three, four years, I feel like the table's hot and I enjoy being at the hot table. And rather than looking at an exit strategy, I've created a life that I love where send a marketing email, market my brand so I can get people to email, manage my academy, you know, promote books and write them. I have everything I need. I'm, I'm like on a wave that just never seems to end. And that to me, I mean, Carol Dweck, one of my favorite authors, Becoming Is Better Than Being. I never wanted to be anything in particular, so there's no gold medal depression at the end, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JSJames Smith
Remember that from your podca- uh, that's, that's not there for me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
Because I've never set an Everest peak. I've never set that. So this wave that's moving for me, I'm just happy. And do you know what? I've j- I joke around all the time, I'm like, "If this ends tomorrow, what a ride." You know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
And I don't think enough people see it that way where, you know, I know you've had the pleasure of taking friends on a private jet.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JSJames Smith
I did that once and I was like, "Wow."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JSJames Smith
If I, if I die tomorrow, they'll be like, "Rest in peace," though. Hopefully they'll cry.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JSJames Smith
"Oh, he took me on a jet to-
- SBSteven Bartlett
No more jets.
- JSJames Smith
... Ibiza for one night."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah (laughs) .
- JSJames Smith
And, um, I... If this all came crashing down, I'd be happy with that because I never set it, you know. There are so many boxers who wanted to be heavyweight world champion, they never made it, they've got to go to the grave with that. Almost feel like there's a element of being unbeatable when I never set a precipice to reach.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Extravagance. Yeah. I mean, Mo Gawdat, which is one of my favorite podcasts I've ever done here, talks a lot about that, that, you know, unhappiness is an essence when our expectations of how life is supposed to be going go unmet. And he's the, they call him a h- happiness expert, genius on the topic, and even billionaires, they have expectations of their steak tasting like Japanese Wagyu, uh, perfection, 10 out of 10. So if it comes and it's a nine out of 10 steak, they are often furious. "The fuck is this?" "Medium rare," I said. Right? Whereas you take that exact same steak, you give it to, you know, someone else that's on 18K a year, they'll be like... That 'cause their expectations are lower and there's, their b- all o- overall standards are lower. They will be over the fucking moon. Same steak, two different people with two different sets of expectations.
- JSJames Smith
It's interesting as well, where, uh, next time you're at a table with people that are very accomplished, I noticed the people that have experienced the steak that much, they're so much more involved in conversations because that's the only thing that can interest them on that night.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JSJames Smith
They've had 10 un... And this is something that petrifies me, where sometimes I feel like I wanna be successful but not too much.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah (laughs) .
- 19:44 – 27:04
Why did you get successful?
- JSJames Smith
- SBSteven Bartlett
You've highlighted there one of the things that evidently made you successful was that commitment to consistency. And like, I mean, you would, you would have seen it in your social channels, because every successful person I've seen and I speak to says the same thing. "First couple of years, fuck all. Then..." It would... I mean, that's the laws of compounding. It goes slow, then it goes really fast. You would have seen that. So that's clearly one of the things. But what else made you... And because there's a lot of people on Instagram giving advice, and there's a lot of fitness people and whatever else. Why you, of all of them?
- JSJames Smith
It's interesting where I think that having a conversation with me now, you'd probably assume, or you'd come to the conclusion I'm different to my socials.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JSJames Smith
I've always seen social media as a crowded room-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JSJames Smith
... where, you know, a podcast is where we're sat together driving somewhere for three hours. Let's talk, let's relax, let the conversation wander. But on Instagram, on TikTok, whatever, I have 10 seconds to capture your attention. And I love the idea of polarizing people. I said in my first book that imagine you invite me to a barbecue in Shoreditch and someone talks about Formula 1, and I go, "Oh, I fucking hate Formula 1." Someone goes, "What?" I go, "Look, I just... It doesn't interest me." And someone's like, "He's brought him the first time and he's shitting on Formula 1." 10 people at the barbecue, three of them will be like, "Do you know what? I also agree with you. I think it's shit." And they'll remember me for saying something controversial, rather than, "Oh, yeah, it's good, isn't it? Oh, Lewis Hamilton, yeah, so good." You know, so many people want to get in line with an opinion that they're no longer remembered. So I took it upon myself, and it was almost by accident. I do my lives every day, I do videos. Then something would piss me off. And I'm not a violent person, so I'd just channel it into a video. And it would get a lot more likes and shares. And I was like, "Hold on, what's going on here?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JSJames Smith
So again, I would post 10 videos, and it would be the one where I was a bit more aggressive. And over time, I learnt that there were certain things people wanted in a certain way. And it wasn't the six-packs, the chicken and broccoli, the food prep. It was being passionate without compromise about different topics. And I do swear as a person. I am crass, I am vulgar, and I do make very inappropriate analogies for things. I put that out. Like I said, I only ever wanted 10 clients. Only ever wanted 10 clients. So if half the people that see a video hate me for it, that's fine. Because as long as the other half is 10 people that would do business with me, again I'm invincible. And I've always had that mentality that I only need 10 people like me to make a living. And if I do those 30 hours at £150 an hour, six hours between 6:00 AM and 2:00 PM, I can live a dream life and be wealthy, even though it's barely breaking 100 to 200K a year. As long as I can buy dinner for my friends and family, I can be wealthy with 10 people. And people completely misconstrue social media for that. They go, "I need everyone to like me. I need a million people to like me." You know, I first flew first class with 28,000 followers. And you don't need that many people to like you to do well. And I wish, I wish people could understand that, because social media's become a popularity contest. It's not, this is not a popularity contest. This is a means of you getting people over the line to like you enough to do business with you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's so true. I, I, I did a lot of talking on stage where I was looking at people like Piers Morgan and Kanye West and Katie Hopkins, and what, what you've described there is what I've always said, which is you don't have to like these people, but the conversation orbits around them. Now, your barbecue analogy there, by you saying, "Oh, the Formula, Formula 1 is shit," everyone then comes over to you. And the conversation is, centers around James' opinion, and that brings attention to you. I said to my friends last night, 'cause I did a tweet and it's got 20,000 likes, and it's like going fucking crazy and everyone's talking about it. I said, "Listen, you're not gonna be able to build a personal brand in 2022 if you're not..." I said this, my friend, to my friends last night in our WhatsApp group, "If you're not prepared for someone to call you a C-U-N-T. If you're not, if you're not willing to accept someone calling you a C-H, C-U-N-T, it's gonna be incredibly hard to get, um, the attention you need for the algorithms to turn in your favor." And that means, in your case, and as I've seen for many, just being yourself. And-
- JSJames Smith
But there's a cost.
- SBSteven Bartlett
There is, but you can be selective with this as well. So, uh, if I have an argument against the keto diet-
- JSJames Smith
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... I don't advocate the keto diet. So if a load of people that are zealots in the realm of the keto drink diets hate me, that's fine. I'm starting fire on someone else's property. Then, you know-
- JSJames Smith
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... I s- I support vegan from an ethical standpoint, but I don't like this self-righteous, uh, you know, sanctimonious element of veganism. Like a religion. It's been hijacked. A bit like, um, I've often said, like...
- JSJames Smith
Feminism, what a fantastic cause, hijacked by a few to give it a bad, sometimes bad rap. Veganism's the same. But then I can have a little bit of a, a cheap shot and joke, you know, satire content with a vegan. And then suddenly, "Ah, the vegans are up in arms sharing this. This is unacceptable." Again, I've started a fire on someone else's property. And the people you've cultivated to like you go, "Oh, that's actually really funny." Or, you know, so you can be very selective with who you pick arguments with. I did one about bodybuilding where I said, "Hey, if you wanna, you know, diet down for six months to show off your insecurities versus someone else's, cover yourself in fake tan and call it a sport, you do you." Right? The bodybuilder community went mental and everyone was like, "Is this guy stupid? He's a personal trainer." I don't coach bodybuilders. Yet thousands of them shared my post. My following went up, and little did they realize, it was their followers that maybe invested in them but don't agree with their values.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
They went, "Hold on. I'm supposed to hate this guy but I agree with him." And now their eyes are on me, not someone else. Being selectively hated is brilliant, and now I even look to the comments section for new content. Someone goes, "James, well, when are you gonna start training chest?" I'm like, "Hey man, when are you gonna start, you know, stop going on people's profiles you don't follow to make content?" You know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
There are so many, like arguments now that I can see from the negative comments that I can then turn into content.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
So, again, it's one of those things where people need to appreciate there is a power in being disliked. And if I turn up to, you know, an event that's supposed to be fully booked and it's not got bums in every seat, I might go, "Ah, I might need to, you know, rein it in and really reconsider what I do for a living." But as long as the talks I do have people in them, as long as I'm still getting support for what I'm doing, I feel like I must be tiptoeing the line enough. Like I say, it's, it's passion without compromise. I'm gonna say what I feel, and I don't care. I think it was Seneca, "If you don't wish to be criticized, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." And, you know, that's how I feel.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And are you being yourself or are you playing a character?
- JSJames Smith
It's always caffeinated James, you know? Me when I've had three coffees, that's who people get. Behind the scenes, I'm a bit more relaxed, quite happy to disagree with people 'cause there isn't a, an interest in it for me. If someone walks past me on the street saying, "I love Formula 1," I'm not gonna say, "Hey mate, come back here." (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
"You're fat and I hate Formula 1." (laughs)
- JSJames Smith
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, um, and the same again where, you know, I'm, I'm not argumentative away from social media. If I see people, you know, chatting hate about me, I don't get involved in it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JSJames Smith
I'm not really that, that person.
- 27:04 – 35:52
Joe Wicks rivalry - Fitness plans you disagree with
- JSJames Smith
Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
What about Joe Wicks? What about that beef?
- JSJames Smith
Do you know what? That's-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Stirred, stirred the pot there a little bit. You said some comments to him about, um, you said there's some dishonesty there, um, regarding what he does.
- JSJames Smith
So, this is something where I haven't gone back on my word, but about six months ago, I took the podcast I did about him offline. Not, I just, I felt like I'd been a bit harsh, you know? At the time, I'd got 10,000 followers, I'd had my first taste of growth on social media. And, you know, beefing rappers, you need an arch enemy, you know? You need someone to be able to go at so you can kind of go back and forth. I actually emailed Joe about four years ago, five years, seven years ago.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JSJames Smith
And, um, I emailed him and I, I found out that he'd seen one of my videos. And I thought, "Oh, shit." I never expected him to see it, ever. I was posting content, I was, "Oh my god, I might have hurt someone's feelings." So I emailed him, I said, "Hey, Joe, just to let you know, one, I will be coming for you a bit. But two, you never get put down by people above you." That's all I said. And he emailed me back ages ago, and I continued the endeavor and there were still things that-
- SBSteven Bartlett
What did he say?
- JSJames Smith
Do you know what? Coming back, I, I think he said something along the lines of he hadn't had an email like that before. It didn't stop me though.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- JSJames Smith
So, there were a few things that frustrated me. One, I don't like people blanket prescribing solutions to people. I don't. And there's, I don't like anyone that presents a solution without education. You know, the teach a man to fish-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
... analogy. So, I had clients that were paying me but also bought his plan. So straight away, there was a bit of a conflict and I remember looking through the supplement stack. And I was like, "Branch chain amino acids, leucine." I was like, "Well, I don't know why you're popping these leucine pills. For my protein, they're massive." Like a pelican trying to swallow each one. I was like, "Unless you're vegetarian or vegan, you don't really need this." Then the branch chain amino acids, and I was like, "You don't really need to be consuming another six pills with this." And then I was like, from an ethical standpoint, I don't, these people are very over supplemented for jumping around their front room. Then there was the one size fits all plan. One of my clients was a type 1 diabetic who got sent it, and I was like, "Don't eat that." (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JSJames Smith
You know, this is not, you know, specialized for you. And the amount of volume that was being given to people is, it's very easy to make people tired. This is what frustrates me as a trainer. I actually want to stimulate people in the gym, get them moving. And if there was ever a boundary of the maximum they could do, I want to come under that every day. A lot of people are stressed, under slept, under nourished. Smashing people in their front room every day I don't think is the solution out of this. So I picked some holes in the programming, picked some holes in, uh, you know, the supplement issue there. But the main problem is this. People would've gone there, seen him on TV, GMTV, seen the book sales and gone, "This is my savior." And when they fail the plan or don't finish it, which I think a lot of people do, I think, I'm not saying that objectively, they blame themselves. And this is what kills me. So many people, maybe hundreds of thousands of people would have done a one size fits all plan, all doing the same exercise regime. I could not sustain HIIT training at 32 every day in my front room. It would break me. When they do eventually fall off that and the meal plan, cooking everything from scratch, which again, I mean, we're sitting next to Huel.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JSJames Smith
That's a market that's come off the back of people not wanting to cook from scratch. When they fail that plan, they're gonna blame themselves.And the voices in their head are gonna say, "I didn't want it enough. I'm not motivated, I'm not committed. I'm not cut out for this." And you can hear it in my voice now, this is something I'm passionate about. It breaks me to think of the tens of thousands of people who gave up on their ambitions because they went the wrong way for advice. "If people love it, and they love cooking from scratch, this guy is probably the guy for you, try his plan, not mine." But it almost felt like physics. So many people went to something, it created gravity that other people weren't. And it's my feeling that that let a lot of people down. And if it didn't, I wouldn't have experienced so much growth from pointing out the inadequacies. If people were truly happy, I would have been, "Shut the hell up then," and I would have just gone away and not existed on social media.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So what's your plan? How does it differ?
- JSJames Smith
Imagine, uh, we have you, the consumer-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JSJames Smith
... it's like selling, I'm selling.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JSJames Smith
You, the consumer. The principle of fat loss is a calorie deficit.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JSJames Smith
The fact that we need to create an energy deficit. Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Just for anybody that doesn't understand, that means burning more calories than you're consuming.
- JSJames Smith
Then you expend.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JSJames Smith
And this doesn't make it simple science, but, you know, let's just say to people, like money in the bank analogy, if you earn too much than you spend, you're gonna accrue money in the bank.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- 35:52 – 42:45
Identifying traits of people that change themselves over just saying they will
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're in the business of helping people change their lives, hopefully. That's, I guess that's, I'm guessing that's part of the goal is to help them become a better version of themselves. And a lot of people listening to this will have a friend or they'll have a, I don't know, a family member or someone that they, they wanna help change their life. What have you learned about those that actually do take the steps, commit, change their lives, and those that just kind of say it? And how do you, do you, are you able to identify them super early and say, "This person's got no chance?" Is there like a warning sign where you go, "This, this person's just all talk"? And do you give up at some point on people?
- JSJames Smith
Uh, face to face, I had to, because there was a finite amount of energy in which I could give people. And I had to sack clients.And I'm sorry, someone could take your slot, pay me the same amount of money, but I could make progress with them. And sometimes they come back a different person. The main thing I learned, I wrote the first book, Not a Diet Book, and then I realized it was a precursor. And my theory is that, you know, in my videos, in my content, I say fat people, I say obese, and I use the C-U-N-T word openly. But I don't think people are gluttonous and greedy. I think that, yeah, from an evolutionary standpoint, it makes sense that if we're surrounded by copious amounts of hedonic food that we should be consuming it because we have done for hundreds of thousands of years. But people don't want to be this way. So I came to realize that so many people, before we look at calorie deficit, we need to look at other pressing issues. Do you like your work life? Do you like your relationships? Because if you come home from a work you're not passionate about, from a job you're not passionate about, and you walk straight in through the door to a relationship you're not passionate about, me telling you to eat less means doing less of the only thing you might enjoy every day. So there's a big life constructionist issue that comes up. And actually I find as a PT, I was asking this. I was like, "You always, you always moaning about your boyfriend. Why, why don't you break up?" "Oh, we've been together five years." And since now, I now know that's the sunk cost fallacy, where they're making a, a decision based off the previous investment, not the actual reason if they wanna be in a relationship. So with the second book, I was like, well, before we even get into this commitment, wanting it, do I give up on this person? I'm like, right, we've got Steve. Repetitive, yo-yo dieter, sticks to the deficit for three weeks, then he falls off. I go, "Steve, mate, do you like your job? You know, do you like it?" "No, well, I've been there eight years." "Do you like your relationship, Steve?" "Well no, you know, I'm missing him, and..." Or the other way around. Sabrina's like, "My boyfriend's a wanker." Whatever it is. And I've come to realize that if we can help change those things in th- those people's lives, suddenly everything else seems a lot, a lot easier. There's a lot less boundaries, a lot less effort. So in a cheesy way, we almost need to address the foundations that people are building on, because if you haven't got this... And, and again, imagine you're in a job you hate on 50K, and you take a pay cut and start a venture with your best mate for 30K. You're gonna have less pleasure in your life, less expensive trainers, less private jets, whatever.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JSJames Smith
But suddenly you have a job you enjoy. And if you're getting enough satisfaction between 7:00 when you wake up and 4:00 when you come home, you won't need to get it from food.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
And then they drop a bit of weight, and then they start feeling better, and then they go, "Oh, do you know what I could do with a bit of muscle on this arm?" So then they start going to the gym, and then they make friends there, and... So this whole conversation surrounding, you know, motivation, I don't think it's a positive charge of motivation. I think that too many people are carrying a negatively charged career and a negatively charged relationship status.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So you view like a poor relationship with your diet or food as more of a symptom of negativity or lack of fulfillment or lat- lack of satisfaction in other areas of your life?
- JSJames Smith
'Cause I've actually been there. When I worked in, uh, so I worked in sales, and I hate phone calls. So it was the wrong job for me. I don't... Even now when people call me, I'm like, "What do you want?" They're like, "What do you mean? You know..." "Are you, you all right?" "I'm fine until you called me." So, um, and I used to get to work, I always used to have peanut Nutella sandwiches, two slices of toast. I wasn't even hungry. Peanut butter on one, Nutella on the other, put them together. I'm having a 500 calorie, just a bit of toast just to kill time from my mundane existence at my office. Again, there are, there are so many people doing this. And in my time in corporate, I realized people are doing the absolute bare minimum to get by. And I always say to people, "The second you join a, a big corporate business, they're gonna pay you the least amount of money for the most amount of your life. And if you don't construct how you want your life to look, they're gonna do it."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JSJames Smith
And a lot of people don't like how that construction looks like, and then they wonder why they're feeling malaise or, you know, depressed or disheartened. And it's because you let someone else build your life for you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JSJames Smith
And it's very important for people to unattach from that. And then if they can... And this is another thing where I'm sure you, you'll be able to relate to this. Some of the best things that have ever happened in my life have come off the back of opportunities not going my way and my back's been against the wall.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, yeah.
- JSJames Smith
Um, I'll probably get shot for saying this. Doing an event, uh, later on this year at Sydney Opera House, which is mad massive-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wow.
- JSJames Smith
... which, um, for me, is an incredible, incredible feat. Because four years ago, I remember being so skint in Sydney, living in a hostel that I went to Opera Bar to apply for a job behind the bar. And they said, "You have to have a qualification to serve alcohol." I was like, "I'm not doing this."
- SBSteven Bartlett
What the fuck?
- JSJames Smith
I remember reading, uh, Tim Ferriss's Tools of the Titans on the ferry back to where I lived. And it goes, "If someone put a gun to your head, would you work harder?" I was like, "Oh, shit. Yeah, I would." I would call up all my existing clients, I'd get referrals. Then I'd call those referrals and I'd close them for sales. I'd give them money back guarantees. I would quite literally just do a lot more. And then I came to realize, "Okay, I'm gonna go home and do that." And within five months, I joined Fitness First and then bought my way out of it. And it's crazy that people are so afraid of being in this position where they leave a career they're unfulfilled with, that they're gonna be stuck and lost. But anything, when your back's against the wall, you find another version of yourself that works harder and does more and puts themself into uncomfortable situations. And my favorite thing to say to someone is like, "How many times have you let yourself down, really, in your life? How many times have you really woken up and gone, 'Oh, I've really let myself down'?" And even if you have, you got out of it. And most people, they haven't. And why the hell do you think you're gonna let yourself down now? Where's that come from?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
Where's that bullshit assumption come from? Probably the people you hang around with. Probably the, the naysayers in your life that may be saying it 'cause they wanna protect you. And so many people in that kind of world of just not fulfillment. And I always say, again, please do not mistake passion with being good at something, 'cause if I get you to do anything for three years, you're gonna be good at it. Don't call that passion.You do recruitment for three years and you can close people, "Oh, yeah, straight, yeah, FTSE 100, I'll get him top four," whatever, doesn't mean you're passionate about it, it means you're good at it-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
And people really need to distinguish that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
There's gonna
- 42:45 – 46:05
What do you say to people that are stuck in their job?
- SBSteven Bartlett
be a ton of people listening to this now that are in that situation. They're in a, they're on their way to a job this morning, you know, that they don't particularly like, and, but they're, they're gonna say, uh, "Well, James, I've got a mortgage to pay and I've got a couple of kids." And you know, you'll get this a lot of time 'cause I get it all, I get it every day. "Got a couple of kids and it's easy for you guys to say 'cause you, you know, you're single and you've got all this money now, but I can't just leave this call center, James. I've got Timmy that needs to go to school and I need to give, you know, buy his books for his book bag." And what do you say to those people that are feeling like they've, they've kind of built a wall too big to climb over?
- JSJames Smith
It's a very difficult one. And again, I can never say, "Or just do this," because when I'm talking now, I'm talking to James of 22-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
... similarly to how you would talk to yourself at 18.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
I can't talk to every age group listening to this podcast, so I'll try to talk to the one I know best.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JSJames Smith
But there's two kind of ways out. There's one where some people do need to make a risk because they may see no options now, but where are they gonna be in five years? A lot of the time things get worse with time, not better in these situations. Unfulfillment, passionless existence, all of these things get worse. If your relationship is on the rocks, you don't just give it four years. Something needs to be done. Sometimes you do need to rip the cord. But to people who are genuinely past it, because people did read my second book and go, "Well, I just can't do this," I said to them, "Well, okay, make sure your kids know this." Make sure if there's one valiant thing you do, is fall on the sword and say, "Right, for me, I will sit out the next 10 years, but those kids, every time I talk to them, every day they're at the dinner table, every step they make in life, instill that into them." My dad said to me, like, my whole life, he's just always said, "You're a long time dead." He always just drilled it into me my whole life. Every time I've wanted to do something, he's like, "Well, you're gonna be a long time dead, son." And there's n- it, it helps me understand there is no time to, to dwell, to wait, to see things out. And I think that, again, that's one of the things that people don't think about enough. You know, we are all slowly dying. It's such a weird thing to think about. People go, "Oh, I'll just give it a few more years." Don't have that. Time isn't on our side. Our existence as a human being is... If the universe could talk, it would laugh at the amount of time we have to live. And some people, again, what's the worst that could truly happen? You've got a mortgage call, have you got enough to survive two months?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
Two months. And if you can't give everything to something for two months, maybe don't do it at all. Pe- personal trainers as well, they, they say this all the time at my business talks, "Oh, you know, they're doing minimum wage hours, six, seven pounds an hour wiping down machines between trying to run a legitimate business, and they're afraid to go alone." Okay, if I gave you seven pounds per hour and put you on the gym floor, and gun-to-the-head mentality, you need to make a business where you're gonna wipe down machines for your whole life, of course they're gonna do it. The, the intensity, the audacity, everything they could give to people is gonna be incredible. I think it's baffling that people write themselves off before they even make the decision. And in some respects, them going, "I've got kids, I've got a mortgage," I appreciate all of those things, but is this a bullshit hurdle you're putting in front of making change in your life? I could be wrong. I don't know, but it could be. They need to ask themselves that. I can't ask them that.
- 46:05 – 55:45
imposter syndrome
- SBSteven Bartlett
One of the things you said that was really interesting, you said, "I don't feel deserving of my success." And I've, I've heard you talk a little bit about impostor syndrome. Do you suffer with impostor syndrome?
- JSJames Smith
I kind of back out of it very quickly every time I, I feel the emotion. Everything to me is just weird. It's just weird. People want a selfie, I'm like, "Yeah." I'm like, "This is a weird part of my day. Let's embrace it." This is something that up until 27 no one ever stopped me for a photo or acknowledged my work. 32 now, give or take, 15% of my life. So for 85% of my life, that never happened. So everything to me is just... You know, I, I joke around at speaking events, I go, "Hey, I'm gonna get found out soon. Until then, I'm gonna milk this for everything I can." I do, I do feel it a lot. It's a strange one, especially at home. Like, uh, I'll go out with my mom and dad, someone will say, "Oh, James, can I get a picture?" I, I now chaperone my dad when he goes into London. We went to Twickenham few weeks ago. And I don't particularly like going to watch sporting events anymore. It's cold, you know, t- trains are so crammed, all of this. But if my dad's going, I'll, like, "I'll come with you. I'll make sure no one barges into you." Especially when people are exiting Twickenham, I'm like, "Fuck off."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
And, um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Purple belt. (laughs)
- JSJames Smith
Yeah, yeah. "Watch out, mate." You know? And, um, even I see it on my dad's face. He's like, he's like, but he, he doesn't... My parents don't have social media. They don't, they don't exist in that world, but I can tell they're kind of proud of it. And I was like, "Do you know what? If my parents are proud of this weirdness, I'll embrace it, and I'll be happy to embrace it." But yeah, it's, it's just incredibly strange. It's again why I need someone else to negotiate all rates and what I get paid and speaking appearances, because whenever... Even getting the invite for this podcast, I was like, "Fucking hell."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JSJames Smith
I was like, "I hope I can keep up the conversation for an hour." It's even, I have the biggest fear whenever I have guests on my podcast. I'm like, "What if I run out of things to ask after half an hour?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Where does that come from? That sort of, like, that almost self-doubt and inse- almost insecurity?
- JSJames Smith
I think that a lot of my confidence, not, not all of it, but a big chunk of it is a facade, an essential facade. I need to play the character. Confidence to me isn't about who you are, it's about who you need to be. It's about how, how I need to talk in this interview, how I need to present myself, the things I need to get passionate about. In some respects, when that fades... You know, I'm just a PT on the gym floor in Bracknell. I worked on a, you know, a trading estate for three, four years. And the craziest thing is, I was happy. I was happy then. I wouldn't... You could come meet me four or five years ago, "Hey, James, man, how's your life?"
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- JSJames Smith
I went, "Oh, you know, fucking hell, I could do with a bit more money. You know, I could do with-"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
"... you know, an expensive watch." It was never like that. I used to ridicule my clients for flying business and buying Rolexes. I was like, "What a waste of money." Now, to my other friends, I'm like, "You should really try business." (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs)
- JSJames Smith
And, um...Yeah, I've- I've definitely had a complete flip on that. I don't know where it comes from, to be fair. But to be, be honest, it's probably the family. I spend a lot of time with my family and my friends. I don't really have any mega successful influencer friends. Everyone's pretty grounded, and we all think that we're getting away with murder charging money for things. So, I think it probably comes from that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But from what you said as well, you spent the first at least 15 years of your life being, uh, indirectly told that you shouldn't aim so high and not much is gonna happen in your life, right?
- JSJames Smith
It was when I first became a PT that this changed, where I remember listening to podcasts, reading books, studying topics, and one day it clicked. I was like, "I'm never gonna be in the best shape. Never gonna be the most muscular, never gonna be the most experienced." And I was like, "I could be a good communicator, because these podcasts I'm listening to are dull as fuck."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
I listened to a 56-minute podcast on caffeine. I managed to turn it into an academy module that was two-and-a-half minutes. Right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
That's all they needed. And I thought, "There's a gap in the market here." And it becomes a snowballing effect, where maybe even the same with yourself, where at the beginning you were like, "I understand the operational part of the business. I understand investorship." And when you see the returns on your efforts, you're like, "Oh, I'm actually quite good at this." And you get all these confirmations that occur along the way, and I think it's more that, if I'm honest. I still struggle to communicate with myself that I'm an authority on things. I actually need external validation still quite a lot, which I've never really told anyone before. We've spoken about quite a few things today that I've never really-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JSJames Smith
... spoken about. And even, there are always little battles that can be won and lost. And some days I'm like, I do lose belief in who I need to be.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JSJames Smith
And do you know what? Actually, content creation for me really helps me with that, because whenever I'm having a day where I'm like, "Fuck, do I really know what I'm talking about?" I will just express something I feel wholeheartedly about and see how it goes. And when it fucking blows up, I go, "Oh, maybe I do know what I'm on about." Carry on.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's a dangerous game to play, because on the other end, if your- if external validation is moving you up, it's, like, impossible for it not move you the other way. So if someone DMs you and goes, "You are- you're a- f- you don't know what the fuck you're talking about."
- JSJames Smith
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
"Vegans are-"
- JSJames Smith
(laughs)
- 55:45 – 1:01:31
Your experience with anxiety
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, you, you said the, the word depression. Now, one of the things you wrote about in your book is anxiety as well, and your own experience with anxiety. Tell me about that. That's something that, uh ...
- JSJames Smith
Well, you sleep with people and they can say anything. That's one that creeps up on you over time, where you can have ... I remember once waking up to a, to a message saying, "Relax, this is fine. It's all being dealt with, but one of your ex-girlfriends in a Facebook group community for mums has said, 'Do you think it's okay if I make up a story about my ex? I will take the money from the story and give it to my son.'" So, we had that screenshotted. We had that locked down, so if it did go to the press, straightaway we could have it taken down. And I was like, "Wow, I thought we were on good terms 10 years ago," or whatever it was. And I, that then gets your mind working. You go, "What if I rub someone the wrong way? What if someone changes their stance on you? What if, you know, I have a joking altercation with someone in a bar, which they then misconstrue? What if I genuinely want to, you know, be ignorant on a subject, and someone construes that as a facetious attempt to insult someone?" So, there's a lot of anxiety that I carry because not everyone watching is watching you succeed. A lot of people watching you wanna see you fall.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JSJames Smith
And they're waiting at that very opportunity. And that is quite tough because there are gonna be a lot of people that are out to just not see me be happy. So, that's where the anxiety stems from a lot of the time. You have the general life anxiety, like, "Oh, I hope, I hope I don't get cancer this year." You know, one of those things. I've had friends that never made it to 30. Some of my rugby teammates, uh, that, you know, find a lump in their testicle on a Friday, both off by Sunday, dead within 10 months. And I think about that a lot. So, I think it's important to have that anxiety as well. I'm not guaranteed to live to 60. You know, I'm not guaranteed to see my book release. Let's hope for the publisher's sake that I get it finished, but ...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JSJames Smith
So there's, there are anxieties, but I work proactively to override them. You know? Uh, Mark Twain, "I've had many worries in my life, most of which never happened."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JSJames Smith
So, I, I think that I've got the wisdom, especially of Stoics, to these anxious traits are not new. They've existed for a lot longer than we could imagine. So, you do carry that around. I get drunk, you know, "Oh, did I put something on the story?" You know, I know that drunk James can say things, but I know he'd never do things. He's not inappropriate, he's not a groper, he's not disrespectful to women, nor any of those things, so I'm fine with that. But then I do carry this small amount of anxiety because the higher you climb, the further you fall. And when you feel like your life is a fairytale, you hope it has the fairytale ending. And you're like, "I hope I'm not the one that ..." You know, this is going too well. It's like you're at a gambling table, you keep winning on red. Eventually I'm gonna lose everything. I think about that a lot. So, I think that's what keeps me straight.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How do you defend yourself from being canceled? What's your sort of philosophy f- f- uh, for that? For me, my, my thing, and Ant Middleton, I think reaffirmed this for me, Jordan Peterson ref- re- reaffirmed this for me as well, is if I never c- try to convince anybody that I'm something I'm not, if I never try and convince them that I'm, like, a really good guy or that I'm, like, morally perfect, they'll never be able to call that a contradiction. And really, a lot of the time, people getting canceled is because they, um, tried to pull the wool over your eyes about their, like, moral compass. And it explains why Jimmy Carr can sit here and go, I mean, this is slightly different 'cause it's comedy, but Jimmy Carr can sit there and go, "Oh fuck the over 70s. The Delta variant wiped them out," or rappers can talk about all the misogynistic things they talk about, whatever. No one's gonna leave any hate on their videos or on their, because they never gave us the expectation of other otherwise. It's usually the people that, quite often it's the people that are our prime ministers or our politicians or have inherited this moral high ground that we go, "Oh, you had a Christmas party."
- JSJames Smith
It's, I'm, I stand with very controversial opinions as well surrounding, I'm very pro drug legalization. I think that, you know, I've got family members in the police force I wish they were dealing with real cri- real crime.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JSJames Smith
And I think that we could abolish a lot of drug-related crimes by legalization. I think we should tax and we should quality control. I don't think it's gonna be a net positive for society, but I don't think exactly right now it is any better. So, with standpoints like that, people go, "James, have you done cocaine?" I go, "Yes." You know, "Have you done MDMA?" Um, you know, "Last weekend." You know? I'll always be honest with people, and that does give you a drop-off of followers, but I can't sit here-
- SBSteven Bartlett
You can't sit here ... (laughs)
- JSJames Smith
I have to fil- I filter them out early so that they can come in, they can go, and that's not to be sexist or to talk about female genitalia, that is to use another polarizing word, so I'll be transparent with that. Similar to Danny Dyer got caught on CCTV doing a line. Everyone's like, "Oh, it's just Danny." You know? What did you expect?
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's what I mean. He, he never tried to
- NANarrator
... fool you.
- JSJames Smith
There is, there is the, the anti-, you know, cancelable effect of that, uh, you know, even when single, being very transparent with needs and wants through messages so that if someone was to look through, you know, a trail of it, you'd be like, "Well, he made it very clear that was the position he was in." So, I'm always trying to maintain an anti-cancelable thing. I haven't got TV, I haven't got radio. I've actually probably had 12 minutes of TV time in four or five years.I think because a lot of TV networks don't wanna (laughs) get canceled, so, um, if you were to pull the plug on all my media tomorrow, I'd probably see a 1% drop-off in, in engagement. And, you know, I'm very honest with all my clientele that the people that really matter to me are book buyers, academy members, and talk attendees. I don't believe that any of my actions would ever deter them from their interest in me-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JSJames Smith
... which kind of makes me uncancellable. You know? Yeah. And I'm not too worried about that.
- 1:01:31 – 1:11:02
Mental imprisonment
- JSJames Smith
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've been thinking a lot lately about, like, the, the, there's a few types of imprisonment in life. There's physical imprisonment, you can put me in a jail. And the other type of imprisonment, which I think is probably even worse, is like the mental imprisonment, which is, "We're gonna decide what you can think and say, um, and who you are." And like, I really don't want that. So how do I have to design my life to make sure that I never get mentally imprisoned? I never go to mental jail. And one of them is building enough resources so that even if you turned off my revenue streams, the ones you could turn off, I'm still good. The other is things like this, which is this is my own show. Don't sell it to Spotify or someone else because then there is a guy that could pull the plug. And I really, I've really started to think about this idea of like designing an uncancellableable life so that you could be mentally free in a world where we're all fucking virtue signaling and trying to fit in and be correct. You know what I mean?
- JSJames Smith
Mental jail. I like that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like it is-
- JSJames Smith
I'm putting, I'm putting that in book three. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Yeah, yeah, yeah. huh. Well, it's a race-
- JSJames Smith
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... wasn't it? You can get it in a book first.
- JSJames Smith
I think, um, yeah, you're, you're incredibly correct, and I think that, you know, I don't have a huge amount in savings, but I think I could live three years on that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JSJames Smith
You know, I went to, I went to Asia for six months when I was younger, and in six months, I spent three and a half thousand pounds.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JSJames Smith
I wasn't staying in the nicest places, but-
- SBSteven Bartlett
You had a great time.
- JSJames Smith
... I spent time there. So sometimes I'm like, "Hey, if the world goes to shit, I got 10 years in Thailand. Let's go."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
I'll just train jujitsu.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
Won't cost me anything. Laundry or whatever. So I always do that. And I actually, I wrote about this in one of my books. I remember I ate in a steak restaurant in Sydney once on the beach, and the waiter that served us, really nice guy, young guy, and, uh, I looked at him, and I went, "Oh, I could have your life, you know?" You probably serve steak in the restaurant, probably get good tips. You're in Sydney. You probably work 6:00 PM to 11:00 most nights, maybe five, six nights a week. I could surf during the day and get a dog and train jujitsu. If I was to do that every day for the next 30 years, I would have a better life than 99% of people on the planet.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Smith
So with the cancelable thing, I almost think, like, if I was to get canceled, oh, well, I wouldn't have to use my phone as much. You know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JSJames Smith
As long as I can get into a country that I, that I genuinely love. I always say to myself, "I'll open a jujitsu dojo in a small town in Australia." I've got door-knocking experience. I used to door knock for NPower. I used to have to knock on a hundred doors to sell gas and electric to people that already had gas and electric. How much easier would it be to sell jujitsu memberships? "Hey, come down. First week's free." Whatever. I, in the same way, not only like to have the uncancellableable life, I like to have a get-out plan that can sometimes be better than my current existence.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JSJames Smith
So it's one of those things where I was like, um, yeah, I, I do think about that a lot. And that's why you have family trusts, isn't it?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
- JSJames Smith
Right? But, no, I think it is one of those things where, especially with Dragons' Den and you going on BBC, there is a expectation of, of who you are. And the mental jail you talk about, I experienced in the corporate world where I was in recruitment, high-end recruitment, and they said, "What'd you get up to at the weekend?" The truth was, I was on an away bus to Exeter playing rugby, and I got Dick of the Day, so we had to do Edward Cider Hands where they duct-taped bottles of cider to my hands, and I had to drink about three liters of cider-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JSJames Smith
... pretty much to break myself free. They put a bin bag around me, and I puked in it for the most of the way back. They put a bin bag around me, and I puked in it for the most of the way back. I was like, "Yeah, I just went out for dinner with my friends."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
Episode duration: 1:32:13
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