The Diary of a CEOJesse Lingard Reveals The Problem With Man United Today & Why He Moved To Nottingham Forest | E214
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
145 min read · 28,793 words- 0:00 – 2:23
Intro
- JLJesse Lingard
What was going through my head at that time, I do not know. I was drinking, just trying to take the pain away.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's tough, man. (heart beating) And Lingard! (crowd cheering) Absolutely fantastic. Jesse Lingard!
- JLJesse Lingard
Hey, that's football. With a club like ManUnited, obviously it's all big. They can have that control over you, but people have a voice. Jesse, he asked if we could, uh, give him a couple of days off. When things are getting said about you that are not true, you've got to voice your opinion. I knew I needed to leave.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you have a suspicion why you weren't picked?
- JLJesse Lingard
Hmm...
- SBSteven Bartlett
You do, don't you? I can see it in your face.
- JLJesse Lingard
So this is the whole thing what happened. (instrumental music plays)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is there a day that you look back on and you go, "That was the hardest day." (crowd yelling) Jesse, you're shit! You're dead (beep) , bro!
- JLJesse Lingard
Getting that much abuse, and I'm already down and off, and I've got to perform. I was still trying to be Jesse, like, "Hey," like, banter, banter, jokes and that. But of course it's going to affect me. He's not done much at all this season. I'm already going through things that you don't know about. I felt like I had the world on my shoulders.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In 2019, your mother was admitted to hospital.
- JLJesse Lingard
She couldn't really cope anymore.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did you ever figure out what the root cause of your mother's depression was?
- JLJesse Lingard
I think as soon as she had me, to be honest.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Thank you for tuning in to watch this episode. Honestly, an incredible episode, but I have to say thank you before we begin, because we've hit a million subscribers on this channel now, and I... it's almost unthinkable. It's, I can't... You know, I'm speaking for our entire team here when I say, it's genuinely, genuinely unthinkable. Biggest privilege of my life to get to do this. Means the world that you guys tune in every, every week, uh, to listen to these episodes. Roughly 65% of you that watch this channel now subscribe to the channel, which is amazing. If you haven't yet subscribed, could you please do me a little bit of a favor? Um, I can't tell you how much it helps this channel, and how much it's helped us to pull in amazing, amazing guests, and to expand everything within our operations. And how it's also gonna help us enable the, the year that's to come and all the plans we have, some huge plans, which I'm going to be bringing to you very shortly. Really, really hope you enjoy this episode. Thank you for being here. Thank you for helping us reach this huge milestone of a million subscribers. Let's get on with it. (instrumental music plays)
- 2:23 – 6:31
Early context
- SBSteven Bartlett
Jesse, give me your context. What is the... Take me right back to when you were in those early years, as you signed and joined Manchester United, I think at seven years old. What was life like? If I'd been in your home, if I'd been in your surroundings, in your environment, what was life like?
- JLJesse Lingard
Um, life was good. Obviously, Mum and Dad split up an early age, especially when I was born, which can make things a lot difficult. Um, but I still had the, the desire, the hunger to go in training. My grandad took me in training, you know, week in, week out. You know, I had trials at Everton, City, Liverpool. So my grandad was driving up and down the motorway constantly, um, you know, to, to support me and, and take me to, to training and games. And then, obviously made the decision to, to sign for United at, at nine years old. You know, we had a, you know, great team, um, you know, the likes of Pogba, um, Ravel in the team. So we had a g- we had a great team, and, um, I think outside of that, obviously my mum was very supportive, my dad was very supportive. He's, you know, football mad, you know, so I think that support system, especially at an early age, is important.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did, did everybody in your circle around you have high hopes for your, for your career when you were that age, about 10, 12, 13? Did they think you were going to be a professional football player?
- JLJesse Lingard
I think my grandad did.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Your grandad did?
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah. He... I mean, he was on the astroturf pretty much every day, practicing skills, learning new things. Um, and he had the, the belief that I would be a footballer. And, you know, if it wasn't for him, then, you know, I wouldn't be in the situation that I'm in, because he took time out of his day to take me on the astroturf, you know, practice. My brother would come down, my dad would come down, you know, we'd play one touch, two-touch football, you know, pretty much on a regular basis. And that's my happy place, that's where I'm, I'm most happy, on, on a football pitch. And, and like I say, my grandad was, you know, very important, you know, putting me into Liverpool, into City, into United on trials, because, you know, people recognized, you know, their talent. But he was there to push me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I, I was watching the documentary and I saw, um, a grandad who looked (laughs) ... It's rare to see... I mean, one might expect a dad or a mother to be that pushy and direct-
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and critical, but to see a grandad being that savage-
- JLJesse Lingard
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... with you at times was quite surprising. Can you give me a fl- For anybody that hasn't seen it, can you give me a flavor of how, how, um, tough he was at times?
- JLJesse Lingard
Well, he got, he got, he got banned a couple of times. Like, when I say we're, we're 12 years old, we're playing Stoke away, and he's come on the pitch after the game and said, "You're not fit to wear this shirt." (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Your grandad's bet you.
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah. Said, "You're not fit to wear this shirt. None of you are fit to wear this shirt." Rah, rah. I'm thinking... Like, the coach is looking at me, I'm like, "I can't do nothing." He had me on weights at ten years old, like lifting weights. Went into, to ManUnited and said to one of the coaches, Tony Whelan at the time, he said, like, you know, "I'm getting my grandson into..." Because obviously he was a powerlifter for Great Britain.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- JLJesse Lingard
So, you know, he wanted me on the weights at an early, early age to try and build a bit of muscle because, you know, I was always small. He kind of drove that from, you know, being a powerlifter, you know, for Great Britain, kind of passed it down to me. My mum was a gymnast, so he was kind of tough on her as well.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JLJesse Lingard
... the wrong way, um, because obviously she wanted to be a gymnast, but my grandad was so hard on her that, you know, eventually she, you know, she quit on that. Um, but even with me, you know, some games I'd, you know, not play the best and, you know, you get in the car on the way home (laughs) and, you know, I'd say like, "Look, oh, my toe was sore today," like just trying to make excuses 'cause he was so, like, hard on me, but he was trying to push... Uh, like, it come from a good place, you know what I'm saying?
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, the reason why your mother quit gymnastics was because he was so hard
- 6:31 – 21:07
Mothers depression
- SBSteven Bartlett
on her?
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah. He was just so- so tough on her. Um, and obviously she didn't have really the motivation to carry on. Um, probably she weren't strong enough to- to carry on that. But, you know, for me, I- I always knew I wanted to be a footballer so, you know, having, you know, my grandad, you know, my dad and my mum around me at the time, them trying to push me. And it was difficult even at an earlier stage because, you know, I was living at my mum's a couple of days and my grandad's a couple of days. And this is only down the road, It's literally five minutes, but you know, like I say, my mum couldn't really cope with me at the time, um, you know, so I was back and forth from my nan and grandad's a lot. And then, like I say, like I say, driving up and down the motorway, Liverpool, straight back to Manchester. Like I would train at Liverpool for one day, have a game for United the next day. So, you know, he put the, he put the mileage in, you know, to get me where I want to be today.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You said your, you said though that your mother couldn't really cope with you at the time. What do you- what do you mean by that?
- JLJesse Lingard
It was depression. Um, she'd be in bed all day. Well, most days. Um, you know, I'd go in, ask for money for the ice cream, like, still be in bed. So me, I was ha- I was happy-go-lucky, like I'm bubbly, like, "What's it gonna play out?" We'd play football, my friends. But, and you don't understand, you know, the situation that, you know, your mother's in at the time. I was so young so I didn't really understand what was going on, um, until obviously it got- it got brought to light, you know, maybe, probably say, (sighs) probably say about 16, 17, you can kind of understand like what she's going through and- and things. But she'd never talk about it, she'll always bottle it up.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So your mother was suffering from depression even when you were very, very young?
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But at that time you just didn't realize what it was?
- JLJesse Lingard
No, didn't know what it was.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did she know what it was?
- JLJesse Lingard
I think she, I think she knew, yeah. But she would never... At that time we didn't have really a support system to support her. She didn't have really people around her that, you know, she could go to, like she can go to my PA now and, you know, go to the doctors and, you know, she would sort all that out. But at that time obviously I think she knew what it was, but, she couldn't really cope with it. She couldn't really... Didn't know how to deal with certain things. Um, and you know, for me, I'm just a kid so I wanted this to play out, have fun, play football. But for her, she just wanted to go be in bed like all day. She would, she would, she could drop me off at school... Well, she could drop me off at school at eight o'clock in the morning and then sleep until three o'clock until she picks me up. That's how bad it was. Like she was really going through it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So she'd sleep all night, wake up to drop you to school and then go back to bed?
- JLJesse Lingard
Mm-hmm. Yeah. She'd sleep in the daytime, pick me up from school, probably go back to bed again. Just lay in bed. Like curtain shut, dark room, everything. And then obviously, you know, bath me, whatever, go, um, before I go to bed and then she'll sleep all night.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Over the last 10 years or so people have become more aware of what like depression and mental health is. And this is kind of why I ask if your mother knew what it was because like 10 years ago, if I'm being completely honest, there was a real stigma around mental health. It was kind of seen as someone just kind of being a bit crazy.
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And over the last 10 years thankfully we've gotten to a point where we have a better understanding that we have physical and mental health. And this is why I say, like, did your mother know what it was? Did she just think she was just sad or- or she didn't have motivation or did she know she was depressed?
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah, I think it was the, probably the motivation part.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JLJesse Lingard
Like she couldn't get out of bed. She couldn't motivate herself to get out of bed. Even when the World Cup... I was dying for her to be there. And I think she came for the quarterfinals and that just made me so happy because in her situation, you know, not getting out of bed, not having the motivation, but she found that motivation to come and see her son play at the World Cup. That was, like, I was, I told her like, I was really proud of her. Like it was, it's brave what you did 'cause, you know, every day in bed, depressed, no motivation and just to find that little bit of motivation just to come and see, you know, her son at the World Cup. And don't forget she's got, you know, I've got my little sister and little brother as well so, you know, she's got to deal with them as well, um, which is always tough. But like I say, to- to find that motivation to come and see me at the World Cup was important for me especially, because I wanted to, I wanted her there anyway regardless, and I didn't even know she was coming until I was in the lineup singing the national anthem with Messina.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You seen her when you were doing that? Really?
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah. And it just gave me goosebumps straightaway. Like I was so emotional after that and I wanted to perform at the highest level and win the game just for her. And I think there's a, there's a video on- on my Instagram of me hugging her for like two, three minutes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've seen it.
- JLJesse Lingard
And it's just some things that can, that can make you happy as, you know, as a person but, just to be there and get up and get changed and get dressed and have that motivation to see her son at- her son at World Cup. That's what made me happy.
- SBSteven Bartlett
This is a bit of a difficult question because it's not always obvious, but did you, did you ever figure out where or what the root cause of your mother's depression was?
- JLJesse Lingard
Um, not really, no. I think-I think as soon as she had me, to be honest. I think it was just difficult for her to, to handle having a, having a child. Um, like I say, I mean, my nan and grandad, you know, took over most of the time. But, you know, she was still there, she was still a mother. But it was just hard for her to, to deal with it. And, you know, we had certain instances where, you know, w- we'd be in bed and she'd be, like, trying to stretch my legs and that. Like, I'm like, "What's going on? Why, why, what's happening there?" I didn't, I, I didn't know what was going on. I didn't know she had depression at the time. I was such, I was such, at such a young age. Um, but for her, it was just normal. Like, normal for her. And she's like, you know, "Stretch your legs, like, you've got training tomorrow." And I'm like, "Well, what's going on?" Like, I didn't realize what was going on. So she had them, like, phases where, you know, she'd do, um, you know, some just extraordinary, you know, stuff.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Stretching your legs? I'm confused.
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah, just, like, like, stretching my groins out. Like, before, like, we went to sleep. Just, like, i- it was strange for me because I knew I had training the next day. But for her, that was probably n- like, natural and normal. Do you know what I mean? Like, uh, it still, it don't, still don't resonate with me today and probably doesn't re- resonate with her today of what was going through her head at the time. Like, especially when I was born. Like, could she handle that situation of having a kid?
- SBSteven Bartlett
So you're saying basically before you would go to sleep, she was stretching your legs in a way that didn't make sense? Like, as in...
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah, I was just like, "I just want to go to sleep." Like, "Why?" Well, I would never question, like, I would never question her. But she would just do, like, extraordinary stuff.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And this lasted, this has lasted up until today? Since as young as you can remember till, till today?
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah. And I think she'll just, she'll still al- she'll still always have depression, but she can cope with it now. She can handle it because, like I said, we've got the right support system around. But still, it's, like I say, I've got my little brother and sister who she looks after, and you know what? She's come on, my mom, mom's come on leaps and bounds, to be honest. Especially from, like, even the documentary. She was nervous to do that. Like, she was crying in the car. Like, the director spoke to her and said, "You're gonna be involved in it." She, she was crying, like, then she got with it. But, you know, she f- found the courage, found the motivation, you know, to do it. And that's, uh, still a big thing even though she's going through what she's going through. But like I say, we can, we can handle, you know, certain situations now.
- 21:07 – 23:26
First break at Manchester United
- JLJesse Lingard
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's difficult. Love's a difficult, difficult thing. Um, off you go into, to Manchester United. Um, when did you, when did you get, in your view, your first real break in Manchester?
- JLJesse Lingard
Um, probably when Jose came in.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah. I mean-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Not under Saf, Sir Alex Ferguson?
- JLJesse Lingard
Sir Alex said, "I'll make it when I'm 23" When I was 23, 24. So, you know, I always believed in him, he always believed in me. Um, I think when David Moyes came in I weren't ready to play first team football yet. And then I think, especially under Van Gaal, um, you know, it gave me the confidence to play. But still it was difficult because, you know, I was at a stage where I played the first game under Van Gaal, did my knee, six months out. January came, went on loan to Derby, and then the season after that's when it was like kind of make or break. So I left it till October time, and if I weren't playing then, then I knew I needed to, to leave. And then he played me at CSKA Moscow away, Champions League, like starting. I was like, "What? Okay." Freezing, cold, minus five, whatever it was. Rooney was like, "Don't wear gloves." I was like, "What?" He's like, "Don't wear gloves." I was like, "Okay." Didn't wear gloves, played well. And after that stayed in the team. So it's kind of a, that was kind of a make or break time for me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why is that comment, "Don't wear gloves," significant to you?
- JLJesse Lingard
Because, you know, especially at United we're brought up gotta wear black boots, no gloves, no long bottoms in training. Just like the basic things we, you know, we're brought up with that. So when you go into the first team, course in the warmup, you know, I'm gonna wear gloves. But for the game, you know, back to basics, how we grew up, don't wear gloves in the game.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's about values, right?
- JLJesse Lingard
Just values,
- 23:26 – 28:44
Sir Alex
- JLJesse Lingard
you know, it's morals, it's the way you've been brought up. You know, United put that into us at, at an early age.
- SBSteven Bartlett
A lot of that comes from Sir Alex Ferguson, right?
- JLJesse Lingard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I'm super ... You know, I've sat here with a bunch of ex-Sir Alex Ferguson players, Rio, Gary, Patrice. How would you describe the, um, the culture at Manchester United during that Sir Alex Ferguson period? What was the culture like?
- JLJesse Lingard
It was good.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah?
- JLJesse Lingard
Always banter. Rio, Scholesy, Giggsy. Um, you know, always banter. Even on tour. Um, you know, it's good to go on tour with them and, you know, I think, you know, Rio being Rio, always was there for advice. Always there to speak to, um, you know, on a regular basis. Like most of them, Scholesy the same.... um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Were they honest and critical as well, though? Were they tough, some of those senior lads?
- JLJesse Lingard
Um, yeah, because they're winners, and you know, they've been there and done that. And you know, they've won trophies before. And you know, it was unfortunate that I weren't in, you know, any of the teams that, you know, won the Prem or, or Champions League. But, you know, even on tour it was, you know, we still win games. And you know, going on tour with them, especially with, you know, Sir Alex was, you know, an amazing feeling. I remember being on the bench, me and Pogba got called up for, to be on the bench against Newcastle. You know, not knowing if I'm gonna play or not, but still just to be there and see how, you know, they are in the changing room and, you know, see that winning mentality. And I think being at United is all, you know, it's, it's been instilled in you from a young age that, you know, winning's important. Don't matter how you win, just win. And I think they've been so successful, you know, over the years, um, you know, winning trophies, just by having that winning mentality.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Sir Alex Ferguson leaves. Now it's funny 'cause I'm a Manchester United fan. I'm a big fan, and I've had season tickets over the years. And, um, go to most of the games at home still today. And it- and from what I've heard, it went from being like a, like a family to being run by Ed Woodward and it feeling less like a family. Like one of the comments one of the waitresses made- said to me was, "You know, when Sir Alex Ferguson and David Gill were here, they would come in here and like chat to us and they knew all of our names, every single one of our names."
- JLJesse Lingard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then when Sir Alex Ferguson left, one of them said to me, "They don't, we don't, they don't speak to us anymore."
- JLJesse Lingard
It's different. Like Sir Alex was like man to man. Like when we're training with the first team, he'd bring us all that 16, 17, training with the first team. Like he give you that confidence. Know your names, know all like from probably under 10s to the first team. He'd know everyone's name. He'd take his time out to understand you as a person, understand your family. And like I say, you know, things change. Um, you know, but with him, you know, it was good that, you know, he could understand the family side, get to know your family a bit more. Um, you know, understand you as a person. You know, see your progression. Like I say, he said 23, 24 you'll be in the first team. You know, to hear that, you know, you can kind of got a big ego, but you know, for me it was nothing's guaranteed anyway. So I'm just gonna work my ass off 10 times, you know, more, you know, to be in that first team.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Rio said to me that when his granddad was ill, Sir Alex Ferguson not only knew, but he knew what, um, Rio's granddad's favorite whiskey was, fav- flowers were, and he sent it to the hospital bed before anybody else. He got it there. So Rio said to me, when- "Whenever I've asked the senior players why Cyph was so good, they all said, they would all just, before you even get the words out, they'd say, 'Man management'." That's what you said there as well.
- JLJesse Lingard
Man management. And I think, I think even this day and age now, I feel like s- it's important. Even with Jose, Jose used to FaceTime me like randomly. A couple of times I'll be driving, he'll be FaceTiming me. Be like, "Where are you? Where are you, kid?" I'm just, just driving home from Selfridges. "Where's Marcus?" "Uh, I don't know, I think he's at home." "Okay, enjoy." Just little things like that, little calls here and there. Even, you know, Steve Cooper knocking for, ringing me. Just have conversations, wanting to understand you a little bit more. Feel like it's so... I think, I feel like it's so important.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why?
- JLJesse Lingard
Because it shows that they care. It shows-
- SBSteven Bartlett
And when they care, you care back.
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right?
- JLJesse Lingard
Like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's how care works.
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah. Like I want to understand you a little bit more then, you know, as a person. Not just as a manager, as a person. Like how are you... Like how you operate. Not in football. I want to know you outside of football as well. Same with the lads. Like I wanna know you outside of football. I wanna get to know your families. And I think where I learned that from was England with Gareth Southgate. Man management, top. Got to the 2018 World Cup, got to the rooms. See a picture of me and my mum, see a picture me and Marcus. I'm like, "This is like we're home." So that-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wait, when you got to your room at camp?
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah, in the hotel. Like, felt like I was at home.
- SBSteven Bartlett
He
- 28:44 – 32:27
Gareth Southgate
- SBSteven Bartlett
really has got the best out of England. In my, in my lifetime, in the 30 odd years that I've lived, I've never seen an England side that looks so happy and cohesive and honestly ego free.
- JLJesse Lingard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, and then it's showing in the, in the tournaments we're playing. We have hope. Like I was at, I was out in Qatar and I wa- I was at this, in the stadium for the England France game.
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And even though we lost, it, I, I walked away happy-
- JLJesse Lingard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... 'cause we're playing great and we, and we're challenging.
- JLJesse Lingard
Playing well.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What, what's he done in your view, um, to that England side to, to create that atmosphere and that culture?
- JLJesse Lingard
I just think he understands, you know, us as players. I think when he first came in, he was the first person to give me a debut for England. I played with him at under-21s, you know, understood his values and, and the way he did things. And then, you know, coming into, you know, the senior team, you know, gave me my debut. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What are his values, in your view?
- JLJesse Lingard
Um, I mean, he cares about the players a lot. And like I say, he wants to understand, you know, the player. Um, you know, so for me, you know, being with him at under-21 level and obviously being with him at our senior team, you know, there's, there's this trust already there anyway. But you know, it takes a lot to, to trust a person and, you know, for someone new coming into the team, um, you know, he still understands the person. And like I say, he wants that trust and the, and the trust back. And you know, you can speak to him about anything. Not just football, you can speak to him about anything.... and, you know, he'll understand and, oh, ask about how- how's your mom, how's your dad, how's every-... Just little things go a long way. And I think, you know, the manaman- man management side of it is, is very important, especially tournaments anyway. But, you know, the group was a collective, you know, understand his, his values and, and the way he does things. Um, you know, so people new coming to the camp, you know, it's easy to sell in straightaway because he'll pull you straightaway and, like, speak to you and sit you down and, you know, talk, just, just talk. And that's it. And I think it's so important.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What's his, you know, a lot of managers are, are known for, you know ... So Alex Ferguson's, (laughs) one of the trademarks of his style is the hair dryer.
- JLJesse Lingard
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
I know that's kind of, like, over-gassed by the media and stuff 'cause you hear what-
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... um, a caring man he was, but when you think about Southgate's style compared to these other managers you've had like van Gaal and Mourinho and all and Moyes, et cetera, what's his style, Southgate's?
- JLJesse Lingard
It's different but he's still got the, the hairdryer in as well.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Surprises me.
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah, no, uh, it surprises a lot of people. But you need that though, because you don't want a manager who's, you know, nice and lets you, you know, get away with little things here and there. Like, he's o- he's, he's, he's on it. Right? He'll tell you if you're in the wrong or not. Don't matter what, what player you are, who you are, he'll tell you if you're in the wrong or not. But, you know, on the other hand, he still, he still wants to create that good vibe, you know, with the team, and, you know, he'll shout when, you know, it's, it's needed. But most of the time it's just, you know, simple. You can speak to him, you know, he'll speak to the group, um, you know, simple words, you know, "Enjoy the game," you know, "We've been here before. Go out, go out win the game, you know, have fun. Do the tactics all in the week." But, you know, to have someone like that, you know, who's a, who's a good guy as well, I think, you know, it goes a long way, especially, you know, with
- 32:27 – 34:20
Ads
- JLJesse Lingard
the England team. (page turns)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Quick one. As some of you know, Intel are sponsoring this podcast. And for me, Intel has made the search for a premium laptop so much easier by creating the Intel Evo platform, which is signified by this sticker here in the corner. Laptop designs only receive the Intel Evo badge when they have been tested to pass Intel's own very strict requirements so that they can actually perform as you need them to out in the real world. And the result for me is a premium laptop that can perform everywhere, even w- with my crazy schedule in mind, and most importantly, it can handle multiple tabs open and a battery that really lasts throughout the entirety of my meetings. Whatever you need your laptop for, Intel Evo have you covered. It's a game changer. To find out more and to get your hands on an Intel Evo laptop, go to intel.co.uk/evo and let me know how you get on. (page turns) It is that time of year again where my life becomes incredibly reliant on Huel. I'm busier than ever. I'm trying to be nutritionally complete in all that I do. I'm trying to make sure I get all of the vitamins and minerals that I need in my diet. And Huel has been, for the last three and a half years, the primary reason as it relates to my diet that I've been able to be nutritionally complete while also being incredibly productive. They've also been a sponsor of this podcast since we launched the podcast. And so I owe them a huge debt of gratitude for enabling this show. And in fact, when we hit the million milestone on YouTube with this podcast, I sent it to the founder because, um, I've never shared this before, but he actually said to me when I started the podcast, he was like, "You're gonna absolutely kill it. You'll have millions of subscribers. You'll be this big, you'll be that big. You'll... So many people will listen." And I don't know if I believed it, if I'm being completely honest, but he believed in us and this show, um, before we'd released one episode, which is a remarkable thing, and he gave me a huge amount of self-belief in myself. So thank you Julian Hearn for that. But also thank you Huel for creating a product that has helped me and helped my health stay intact in my busiest days over the last couple of years. Back to the episode. (page turns) Why did
- 34:20 – 37:54
Why did Manchester United struggle with so many good players?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Manchester United not reach the levels on the pitch during that era? 'Cause, uh, when I look at the players that we had, I mean, fucking hell, we signed some unbelievable players. Like, it's not, uh ... People often criticize the Glazers for l- lots of reasons, but when you think about the money spent on players on the pitch-
- JLJesse Lingard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... we spent the money.
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's like almost a billion. I think it's almost a billion-
- JLJesse Lingard
Billion, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... billion we spent in players in that period, yet we couldn't, we couldn't seem to win. We couldn't seem to get that cohesion right through that sort of van Gaal-Mourinho era and even the D- David Moyes era.
- JLJesse Lingard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, what's your assessment on why that is? Like, what, w- why wasn't it ... (snaps fingers)
- JLJesse Lingard
I just think it didn't click. Of course we won ... You know, with van Gaal, won the FA Cup, Mourinho, Europa League, Carabao Cup.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But these cl- these world-class players are coming to United, and I'll be honest, they're looking average. So they, they would come from a club where they were banging, and, and me and my friends, we celebrate in our Manchester United chat. We're like, "Here we go, lads." (laughs)
- JLJesse Lingard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Every year. And then they'd, it's like they become half the player.
- JLJesse Lingard
It's strange because a lot of players have come in and failed. Like I say, oh, you know, Alex in training, phew, top. Like this, this, this-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Sanchez?
- JLJesse Lingard
Alex San- quality, training quality. Then you come to a game, it doesn't click for some reason. don't know. Is it pressure? You know, when I was playing, especially with Rom and, you know, Alexis, we just wanted to enjoy football and... Of course it's gonna be hard to win a Prem when City have, you know, been so dominant for, for many years. But even to win Europa League, you know, Carabao Cup, Community Shield, like, we're winning trophies, but I think when Jose left, then trophy stopped. And that's difficult. Another new manager. It's kind of like you, you have to, like, kind of prove yourself over and over again. It's kind of like, you know, false, like, f- fake promises, really. Like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Think that's what the heart of it?
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah. Like, you know, you get the, "Hi. Hi." "You doing well?" Like, you know, "You're playing next game."... that I'm not playing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
During the, the time under Solskjær?
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah. 'Cause I played at first, and then also-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah, box office-
- JLJesse Lingard
... lockdown came.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When, when Ole first came in-
- JLJesse Lingard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... United were unbelievable.
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You were balling out of control.
- JLJesse Lingard
That's what I'm saying.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JLJesse Lingard
And then (inhales deeply) I said to him before the season, "You know, if I don't play X amount of games before December, then will you let me go on loan in January?" He said, "Yeah." So, didn't play, and then January come, West Ham came in and there was still people was, you know, debating, you know, "Is he fit enough? Is he ready to, to go into a team like that and, and start straight away?"
- 37:54 – 39:50
Not going to the Euros
- JLJesse Lingard
to go Euros.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How did that feel-
- JLJesse Lingard
Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... when you found out that you weren't going? After having won it- probably, arguably, your best ever year in football-
- JLJesse Lingard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... before at West Ham, when you were, you know, widely considered to be the most in-form player in the league. How did it feel?
- JLJesse Lingard
Heartbroken, because, you know, growing up, I was always want to do re- represent my country and play for England. And to not play the first half of the season, then to go to West Ham and they found out I was in there. Could have easily took it into, into the Euros, but didn't pick me. And like I say, weren't strong enough to probably say, "Look, why am I not picked?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Would that have helped?
- JLJesse Lingard
Probably, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you think?
- JLJesse Lingard
To get a, to get a-
- SBSteven Bartlett
It would have helped you.
- JLJesse Lingard
... a reason out of it, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. It wouldn't have got you in the team, but it would have helped you?
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah, like, what, what, what could I have done to (laughs) get into the team?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JLJesse Lingard
Shouldn't I have scored 10, 11, 12 goals? I don't know.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you have a suspicion why you weren't picked?
- JLJesse Lingard
Hmm...
- SBSteven Bartlett
You do, don't you? I can see it in your face.
- JLJesse Lingard
I don't know, because-
- SBSteven Bartlett
I can see that smirk.
- JLJesse Lingard
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) You do.
- JLJesse Lingard
I don't know, because (inhales deeply) I was thinking, off, off form, how, how, how can I not be picked?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you think it could be something else? 'Cause your form, you can't argue with it.
- JLJesse Lingard
Can't argue with form.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You can't argue-
- JLJesse Lingard
Can't argue with stats.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Anything off-
- 39:50 – 47:26
Your mother being admitted to hospital & your depression
- SBSteven Bartlett
In 2019, as, as shown in the documentary, your mother was admitted to hospital. What was, what was, what was the cause of that, of that happening? What was the lead-up of events that sent her to hospital?
- JLJesse Lingard
Just the depression. It was just so bad that she couldn't really cope anymore. And I think she needed to go away and get help, but then leaving me with my little sister, who was probably 11 at the time, and, you know, my little brother, who was probably, like, 15 at the time. For me, I was still going through my own things as well, so I weren't really the, the big bro that they wanted at the time. 'Cause they always get, like, the fun, the laughy Jesse, the bubbly Jesse. By that time, I was going through my own, own stuff anyway, so I was just autopilot.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Your mum's in hospital, you've got two, uh, younger siblings that you're now primary carer of, and how are things going on the pitch? You're saying that you just weren't present on the pitch.
- JLJesse Lingard
(exhales deeply) Just weren't there. Like, mentally wasn't there. Like, I'd be on the pitch, but just didn't want to be on the pitch.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah, I didn't wanna play. I didn't wanna, I didn't wanna quit football. I'd never quit football, but I would've needed a break.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JLJesse Lingard
If lockdown didn't come, would've needed a break, 100%.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And is this in, this is in Ole's first year or second year?
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah, sort of second year, and I'm just going into games like... just mind blank. Just, just on the pitch, just like, I didn't wanna be there, to be honest. So of course I'm gonna play bad.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then you're getting abuse?
- JLJesse Lingard
That was kind of what tipped it over, to be honest, after the Derby game.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What happened?
- JLJesse Lingard
So we won, but, you know, as soon as you get on the bus, it's, you know, "Jesse, you're shit." Blah, blah. Like, "Why are you playing for us?" Blah, blah. And to be fair, Luke Shaw backed it, to be honest. He came down off the bus and, like, started shouting at him, arguing, whatever. But don't know if it was Derby fans or United fans, but, like, I'm human. Do you know what I mean? Of course it's gonna affect me. Like, I'm already down enough anyway. I'm already going through things what you don't know about, and I've got to perform on a weekly basis. And when you're performing, you're not performing at, at 100%, so of course there's gonna be critics and, you know, you're not playing that well. You know, but to be abused like that?It's kind of- (sighs) kind of what tipped it, to be fair. That was like... I was like, "Nah, I can't, this is... I can't be arsed anymore." Like, I need, I need a break. I need to find something, some motivation, some fire in my belly again to get going again because, you know, I can't, I can't be doing this, like... And there'll be another game next week and I'll be like, "Oh," like, psh, "Can't be arsed, man. I can't, I don't wanna play." Just during that time, that, that time period of everything what was going on, Mum, looking after my little brother and sister and that, uh, I felt like I had the world on my shoulders.
- SBSteven Bartlett
There's this really kinda, like, moving, haunting part in the documentary where I think your bro- your older brother has vi- literally video- videoed you lying on the sofa completely-
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... still. Your eyes are, like, blank.
- JLJesse Lingard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Uh-
- JLJesse Lingard
That's how I was. Like, even at training, like, just masking it, just tryna, like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Masking what?
- JLJesse Lingard
Just masking, you know, the depression side of things, the anxiety. Like, I was still trying to be Jesse, like, "Hey," like, banter, banter jokes and that. But, you know, it comes to a point where you actually need to say something because I felt like (sighs) just the world just was on my shoulders and... Had no one to turn to, like couldn't speak to anyone about anything. I didn't want to speak to anyone. I felt, "You know what? I can deal with this. I can handle this. I'm, I'm grown enough to deal with this." But come to a point where it was like, "Look, Ollie, this is what's going on." And we kinda kept it, you know, close-knit, to be honest. But even just to have, like, Ollie say, like, "You know, how's your mum? How's she doing?" Like, I could have a conversation with him, could have a conversation with the doc, have a conversation with the liaison woman and that just helped a little bit more, just having that little bit of conversation and letting people understand, like, what I'm, what I'm going through. And then, I think I did a, uh, I did a piece for the paper, um, you know, talking about it and... I still don't think people really fully understood, you know, what was going on until, until, like, like I said, the documentary came out.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In order for you to, um, s- be able to have those conversations with the people, you first had to make the decision to, like... For you to talk about how you're feeling 'cause once you open up, then they-
- JLJesse Lingard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... can give you that support. You talked about how it's difficult to do that when you're a young man. Did you realize in that moment that you were suffering with depression? Could you see your- see yourself in your mother or see your mother-
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah, probably, yeah. I think the video sums it up, the one where I'm on the sofa. I'm just, it's... I'm actually laying there for, like, three minutes just, just staring to thinner. I don't know what I was thinking, don't know what was going through my head at the time. But like I say, like, I was, I was, I was drinking, stuff like that, like, before bed, like, having a nightca- and like, look back now, I think, "Well, what am I doing that for?" Like, well, I needed something, so I was trying to take the pain away and, like, put me at ease somehow and, like, try and forget what was going on, but it makes it 10 times worse.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you feel the online criticism? Do you, do you... Are you exposed to it?
- JLJesse Lingard
No, I don't read it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You don't read it?
- JLJesse Lingard
No.
- 47:26 – 57:04
Manchester United losing the control.
- SBSteven Bartlett
you went to West Ham. You really, really performed as we've discussed. Um, I think a lot of people were expecting you to stay there.
- JLJesse Lingard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because you'd performed so well and it just seemed like you finally found your, your groove consistent. You scored the goals, you got the assists. What was your thinking at that point when that loan comes to an end? Did you want to stay at West Ham?
- JLJesse Lingard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You wanted to stay?
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Manchester United wanted you to come back?
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah. So I had a year... Yeah. I was, I wa- I went into my final year after that then.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JLJesse Lingard
And I still wanted to go on... (sighs) I wanted to go on loan in Jan 'cause I weren't playing again. So, Newcastle was on the cards in Jan. Deal was done, everything. Obviously, U- the United squad weren't big enough. So let a couple players go out on loan and then when it come to me, (clicks tongue) John Murtough rang me. He was like, "No. Like, you're not going on loan." I was like, "Um..." Well he's gone on loan, he's got... Let, let me go and enjoy if I'm not playing here, so let me just go on loan. Right, let me play football."
- SBSteven Bartlett
To Newcastle?
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah. And, um, he was like, "What do you want, days off?" I was like, "No, I just want to go and play football." Right. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
What do you want, days off?
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah. So this is the whole thing what happened.So then, they stopped the loan. Obviously, I was pissed. Um, and then when he said about the days off and that, I messaged him. I was like, "You know what? I wanna take two days off now just 'cause you said that." So then they put out, um, Jesse's asked for two days off, and the media, "What?" Went on Twitter straight away, "No, I didn't ask for two days off. He asked me if I wanted days." I, I just put, I just put it out there, the facts.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How, how, h- what was the dressing room like at that point? You know, when... 'Cause a lot of players were... Obviously, when Ole... Ronaldo comes in, obviously, Ole eventually ends up getting fired, et cetera, et cetera. Um, it did feel like... You know, they use this phrase, "Oh, the managers lost the dressing room." Or there's... From a fan looking in, you could just see that there was something wrong with the culture at the club.
- JLJesse Lingard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Players would come in there that were world-class, as we said earlier, world-class elsewhere, come in, they were becoming fucking average players.
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You've got all of these, these rumors leaking. You've got all of this stuff happening. Players at the club feeling like their trust has been broken. Like you said, you've been lied to a few times.
- JLJesse Lingard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It just felt like some-... There was no... Someone didn't have control of the place.
- JLJesse Lingard
No, they weren't. There was no control, I don't think. Like you say, when Sir Alex was there, it was full control.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like a fortress. Yeah.
- JLJesse Lingard
A fortress. Everything goes through him, contracts, everything, like commercials, like everything. Of course, generations change. Players grow up. People have a voice. But, like you say, when things are getting said about you that's not true, you're gonna voice your opinion. Like I say, it w- wouldn't happen back in the day. It'd be squashed there and then with Sir Alex. But like you say now, people have got platforms to, to voice their, their own opinion and write what they want.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you think players have lost, lost respect? Not in this sort of, um, Erik ten Hag era, but just in that period that followed through these managers in the, the Solksjaer era? Do you think players, from what you'd seen, had kinda lost respect for the club?
- JLJesse Lingard
Probably, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It looked like that?
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah, probably.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It looked like this wasn't the, the same old Manchester-
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah, there's no control.
- 57:04 – 1:04:01
Moving to Nottingham Forest
- SBSteven Bartlett
you, you chose after your time at, uh, um, Old Trafford, after your contract had come to an end, to go to Nottingham Forest. A lot of people were surprised by that. A lot of people would have thought you would've gone to, back to West Ham where you'd had an unbelievable run or even to Newcastle, somewhere like that. Why, why did you choose Nottingham Forest? Newly promoted team, they'd just been promoted, right?
- JLJesse Lingard
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, why, why n- why Forest?
- JLJesse Lingard
I think they showed the love. They showed, you know, the willingness and the hunger to want me. They were gonna fly me here, here, there and everywhere to, to get a deal over the line. Um, things broke down at West Ham, negotiations, which obviously I can't get into too much, but, you know, Nottingham showed the love a lot more than, you know, West Ham. And, you know, when you think about it, you know, I've been at West Ham anyway before, and you expect ... Like, you see what I can do and you see what I've done, so you expect them to be like, "Yeah, like, you know what? Right, we'll show you the love. Like, like, this is the contract, blah, blah. Like, let's negotiate, let's talk." And they weren't like that s- for some reason.
- SBSteven Bartlett
They didn't want you to sign?
- JLJesse Lingard
No, they wanted me to sign, but-
- SBSteven Bartlett
They just wouldn't give you a good deal?
- JLJesse Lingard
... kind of rush it. It was, like, kind of rushed. Like, it would be like Wednesday and they'd be like, "Sign by Friday." Like, "There's a deal, sign it." Like, "Let's, let's talk, like, you know me." Like, "I'm not-"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wanted some respect.
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah, like, "Just, just b- show a little respect, like, I've been there. I've helped your team, like, we got t- got to Europa League. Now show a lot, bit more respect and that." But Nottingham were just like, "Listen, like, we love ya, we want ya. Like, the manager will come to your house, like, the owner wants to fly you to Greece, like, to sign the deal. Like, ev- doing everything in their power to get the, the deal over the line." And, you know, for me it was a, it was a new challenge, different challenge. New different way of team. (clears throat) Of course I've known, I was a b- known United all my life, um ... And I remember leaving, leaving United the last day and the physio that we had from under 18s, obviously is, is with the first team now. He's like, "Remember the FA Cup goal? Remember the Youth Cup, you know, run when you, when you won the Youth Cup? Like, oh, I'll always remember that goal, like the, uh, the F- the FA Cup goal." So I got in my car, yeah, t- started crying. Just, just started bawling, crying, like, all the way home. Drove home, yeah. I rang my brother, I was like, "Oh, it's actually leaving, you know, leaving, leaving." Crying all the way home and that. And I couldn't contain my emotions and that, and then, like, it lasted a long time, like, I've been there all my life. Like, I know everyone in the club from, like, staff, kit men, dinner ladies. You know, Mike Glenny who scouted me, you know, to United and, like, that, that's been my life, United.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How did you feel about the club when you left it? Did you feel let down, like disappointed?
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah, a little bit. Like I say, false promises here and there. Not really give you a reason why, you know, you weren't playing. So yeah, kind of let down to be honest. Like I say, didn't really get a send off. Been there that long, I think I deserve one.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But when you get in that car or you, when ... You know, I've been in the moment as well where I've, like, I've, you know, quit my business that I'd started seven years in when there's hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of employees. And my first reaction, I've got to be honest, was like, I was, I was like ... When I knew I was gonna quit, I was so mad and I wrote this email and it was kind of bitter and whatever else, but when I realized I was actually going to send this email, there was this little pause.
- JLJesse Lingard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And this is when I was in, I was in Portugal at the time and I got really emotional.
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
'Cause it w- that's when you look back and go, "I'm actually going here."
- JLJesse Lingard
... yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like-
- JLJesse Lingard
It hits you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... it hits you, yeah. It's all said and done now.
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I'm, I'm leaving. And so I r- redid the email, and it was, like, a really nice one.
- JLJesse Lingard
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
It was like a thank you- (laughs)
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... to, like, the, the board and stuff for, for taking the chance on me and stuff, so. Yeah, it's h- it's tough, tough though, because-
- JLJesse Lingard
(that) That was tough. When he said that, when the physio said that, (exhales) I was gone, I was gone. Crying all the way home in the car. And people don't know that. Like, people probably thought like, "Oh, yeah, he's, ah, he's happy to leave." But I needed to leave. Like, I wasn't playing, so why am I gonna s- like, I got offered a contract, but what's the point? Like, I'm not gonna play, so I wouldn't rather, like, yeah, biggest club in the world, but happiness is more important for me and, um, I needed to be happy and (clears throat) go somewhere where I'm loved and...
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's been a difficult start to the season for Nottingham-
- JLJesse Lingard
Mm-hmm.
- 1:04:01 – 1:11:26
Your companies
- JLJesse Lingard
for me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Off the pi- off the pitch, you know, you're 29 now. Players, I think, the, the average age of a player usually goes, I don't know, 32-ish, I don't know. What are you thinking about off the pitch? What's going on in your world? I know you've got your, you've got your brand, You're doing several investments and sort of deals. You've got a media company. Give me a, a view of what, what that looks like.
- JLJesse Lingard
That's it. Even at United, I've always, you know, off the pitch, I've always, I'm always on the go. Always wanna know what the next thing is to do. What's the next investment? What can I be involved in? What can I do? E-sports comes, gaming, love gaming. (smacks lips) A sports team, let's do a sports team. Brand, love fashion, let's do a brand. At the launch, the brand was like, (sighs) was amazing. I think like 3,000 people turned up at Victoria Warehouse. And then at the nighttime, Lil Baby was there. We got Lil Baby to perform. And he weren't even big, big then. Um, but I just wanna, I just wanna be happy and do things that I wanna do to make me happy. And, you know, the investment and the business side of things, of course, I wanna set up things for my little sister, for my little brother, for my daughter when she grows up, that they can just go into straight away. And I think with the media company, um, it's called One Touch. Guess why it's called One Touch?
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Uh, (sighs) 'cause you used to play one touch with your grandad?
- JLJesse Lingard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JLJesse Lingard
So I named it One Touch. Um, and obviously the Channel 4 documentary came from, from that. And I feel like it's just easier, because if I do a commercial now, say I do, um, JBL commercial and they're getting the production and I can be like, "Well, you, you can use my production then."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JLJesse Lingard
Like, the talent can get paid, um, p- productions even get paid at the same time. So it's a win-win. And all the con, like, anything that we do, that we, um, video or record, we get la- like, final say-so anyway. So it's all under our umbrella. And like I say, after football I wanna go into acting. So maybe starting this now and maybe start doing a little bit of voiceover work and like, you know, the animation kinda thing. Um, but I need to take drama classes. I've not done that yet.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why acting? So when you think about a- your life after football, some people think about being a pundit or a manager or a coach, whatever. You're thinking acting?
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How come?
- JLJesse Lingard
I just love films, man. I just, I've always been a big film lover. And, (sighs) you know, to be involved in, you know, a film or a series would be, you know what, would be amazing and-... like I say, I needs to, to really, you know, home in on, on the drama side of things and, you know, learn li- I'm, I'm really bad with lies, to be honest. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
What would be your dream role? Have you got an idea in mind for what-
- JLJesse Lingard
Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What kind of, like, acting? Just give me an example.
- JLJesse Lingard
I think I'd start comedy.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Comedy.
- JLJesse Lingard
I think I'd start comedy first. And then, you know, when you see the Interstellars and the Inceptions, (exhales sharply) them kind of roles. But that's gonna take time. Like, you're not gonna be, you're not gonna be thrown in straightaway. (inhales deeply) Maybe a bit part here and there. But, you know, for the, for the, for the future with, (sniffs) with the media company, we've got so many things, you know, in, in, in the lineup. (sniffs) And obviously, it's based in LA and that's where, eventually, hopefully, I wanna finish football.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You wanna finish in America?
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah, I think so.
- SBSteven Bartlett
At the very center of your documentary is the story of your mother. I found this wonderful picture. What does she mean to you?
- JLJesse Lingard
(smacks lips) Nah, she's everything, mum. (sighs) (exhales sharply) Like, she's been through it, mum. She's been through it and, (sighs) you know, to see where sh- like, where she is today from where she was, huge progression. I'm so proud of her. And it can be hard 'cause she's had depression for years and years and years. I like to say having me probably made that worse for her, 'cause she couldn't probably handle, you know, being a mother at that time. But luckily, we had, you know, my mom and my grandad there to support us. But she-
- SBSteven Bartlett
What do you, what do you want for her?
- JLJesse Lingard
I just want, I just want the best for her. I want, I want her to see, you know, her, her kids grow up. I know she's so proud of me of, you know, how far I've come. You know, she'll still message me if I've had a bad game or a thing like that, which is good. Same with like my grandad, same with my dad, same with brother. Um, but yeah, she's been through it, but I just want the best for her. I, and like I say, I wanna, you know, keep her in this lifetime long enough to, you know, see me progress, see Hope progress into the character that, what she's gonna turn into, 'cause she's a character at the moment.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're proud of her?
- JLJesse Lingard
Mum? Yeah, massively. Massively.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How come?
- JLJesse Lingard
Just, uh, from sitting in bed, you know, at the age that I was there, probably, or maybe a little bit older, not being social, to FaceTiming me every day and ringing me every day and, "Jess, what you doing?" And how it... (exhales sharply) I love that. And I think my little sister, like, sh- she's 14, but she's g- sh- acts like she's 18. But I think she, she helps my mum as well a lot, which is good 'cause my mum never really had someone to, like, lean on. Like, not even my nan, like, not even my grandad, really that much. Like, she's, she's not really had, like, a, a proper friend to lean on, you know, in times of struggle. But I think having Daisy there, you know, my little sister, you know, she's, she's really helped my mum. And I think my mum, you know, thrives off that. And like I say, we're, we're, we're both daft. We're all daft.
- 1:11:26 – 1:15:35
Last guest question
- SBSteven Bartlett
We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest without knowing who they're leaving the question for. Um, the question that's been left for you is, what are the uncomfortable things that you banished to the shadows, which means kind of put in the shadows, which would improve your life if you integrated them?
- JLJesse Lingard
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Basically means, what are the things that you put in the shadows that would improve your life if they weren't in the shadows, I guess?
- JLJesse Lingard
So, I think just to question things a little bit more because, you know, growing up, I've n- I've nev- I never do that. Like, I've been put in situations where I could question things, like, "Go and ask a question." They don't actually not get, but I'd never done that. And, you know, it's only taken me all these last couple years where, you know, kind of finally, like, man up and, you know, be strong enough to ask a question. 'Cause sometimes, like sometimes, it can take time for, you know, a person to, you know, to grow up and, you know, be a man. But, you know, having my daughter, like, changed a lot of things. And you know, like I say, if things don't go our way, of course I'm gonna question, you know, things. But back in the day, I would never.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well, Jesse, thank you. Thank you, um, for so many reasons. You've given me so much joy as a Manchester United fan, um, over the years. I've, I've, you know... Not just because of your off the field, on the field performance, but just generally, like, the personality you've brought into the game and the happiness you bring to, to your game. Um, but also, the documentary you've released on Channel 4-... is incredibly important, incredibly inspiring, because it's starting a new wave of conversation around players' mental health-
- JLJesse Lingard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and really a call for empathy, because we never, as fans, know what's going on out off the pitch, behind the scenes. And to have a view into that puts, puts things in perspective. It kind of turns the lights on. And when you can see that full picture-
- JLJesse Lingard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... hopefully people will realize, as you've said, that y- you're, you're players, you're not robots. And that even one comment or one thing happening at home can, like all of us, like the rest of us human beings-
- JLJesse Lingard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... can have a really debilitating impact on us, our mental wellbeing, and h- and how we perform. And that's a really important conversation, one that you didn't need to, to start, one that you could have very easily just kept to yourself. And it's, um, tremendously strong, uh, uh, contrary to popular opinion, um, to speak out like that, especially when you're a man and it's not so easy to do so-
- JLJesse Lingard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... because of s- the stigma.
- JLJesse Lingard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So thank you for that. That's incredibly important. And I'm exceptionally excited to see, um, the next ch- chapter of your life play out at Nottingham Forest, but then much further on beyond as you, as you embark on a, a new career in a different industry. Thank you. It means a lot to me that you've come here today.
- JLJesse Lingard
No, appreciate it, Stephen.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Pleasure to meet you.
- JLJesse Lingard
Thank you very much.
- NANarrator
(Instrumental music)
- SBSteven Bartlett
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- NANarrator
(Instrumental music)
Episode duration: 1:15:35
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