Maisie Williams: The Painful Past Of A Game Of Thrones Star | E181

1. 0:00 – 2:03

   Intro

   1. MWMaisie Williams0:00

      They were asking the right questions. (instrumental music plays)

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:03

      We can stop as much as you want, by the way. We don't have to carry on.

   3. MWMaisie Williams0:07

      Maisie Williams, everyone. (crowd cheers)

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:10

      Game of Thrones was the biggest show on television. (instrumental music plays)

   5. MWMaisie Williams0:15

      Game of Thrones flipped my whole world on its head. I sometimes worry that I'm, like, alienated because it all happened when I was so young, and like, literally from the age of 12, I've been, like, set for life. (instrumental music plays) I had a traumatic relationship with my dad, and ever since I can remember, like, I've really struggled sleeping. It had, like, met its, like, peak, and I was at school. I was taken by a teacher to the staff room. She was saying, like, "What's happened?" But I think a lot of the traumatic things that were happening, I didn't realize that they were wrong. (instrumental music plays) I would look around at other kids and be like, "Where does the joy... When does that come for me?" (instrumental music plays)

   6. SBSteven Bartlett0:58

      When you were 22, you, you talked about issues with substance abuse.

   7. MWMaisie Williams1:02

      Yeah, I would just... Had that sense of impending doom, and I didn't know how to make it go away. (instrumental music plays)

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:17

      I'm gonna come and give you a hug. (instrumental music plays) Before this conversation starts, I've got a favor to ask from you. 74% of people that watch this podcast frequently haven't yet hit the subscribe button, and 9% of people haven't yet hit the bell to turn notifications on. The bigger this platform gets, the bigger the guests get. So if you could do me one favor, if you've ever enjoyed this podcast, please hit the subscribe button and turn notifications on. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music plays)

2. 2:03 – 19:52

   Early years

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:03

      So take me back, Somerset.

   2. MWMaisie Williams2:05

      (laughs)

   3. SBSteven Bartlett2:05

      What do I need to... To understand who you are now, what do I need to know about that part of your life?

   4. MWMaisie Williams2:13

      Um, well, I, as like, a young child, before the age of like, eight, um, had quite a traumatic, like, relationship with my dad. And I don't really wanna go into it too much-

   5. SBSteven Bartlett2:29

      Right.

   6. MWMaisie Williams2:29

      ... because it affects my siblings and my-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett2:32

      Sure.

   8. MWMaisie Williams2:32

      ... whole family. Um, but like, that really consumed a lot of my childhood. Um, ever since I can remember, like, I've really struggled sleeping, and I think a lot of the traumatic things that were happening, I didn't realize that they were wrong. But I knew that like, I would look around at other kids and be like, "Why, why d-" Like, "Why don't they seem to understand this, like, pain, or dread, or fear?" Like, like, w- you know, "W- where does the joy..." Like, "When does that come for me?" Like, I, you know, I kind of always felt like I felt things very deeply, um, in comparison to other people. And so when that sort of period of my life ended, um, I imagined that like, you know, everything is just like, up from here. Like, "Everything's perfect now." Um, "All of those things that I was concerned about were actually wrong, and like, now I'm sort of free." Um, yeah, and then, you know, at different stages in life, you realize that there's never like, a end destination for that freedom, um, and it's... Yeah, it kind of comes from within, I guess. Like, when are you going to let yourself be free from, from the pain? But yeah, that really consumed a lot of my childhood. That was sort of like, what I was identified as. It, you know, what I identified myself as for a long time, and then, you know, everything changed and I sort of became this like, you know, character who, uh, who wouldn't let anything bad happen to her or anyone around her, and yeah. I guess like, maybe there is some sort of like, connection between those two things.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett4:24

      Your mother left your father?

   10. MWMaisie Williams4:26

       Yeah. Before I was born, actually. Well, no, I guess she escaped when I was about four months old, so it was, you know, bad before that. And then, uh... Yeah.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett4:39

       Have you spoken about this before?

   12. MWMaisie Williams4:40

       No. I don't know. I, I like you. (laughs)

   13. SBSteven Bartlett4:45

       Awesome.

   14. MWMaisie Williams4:45

       I don't know. I feel like this is an, um... It's something that I've been, like, learning a lot about recently, and I feel like I can speak about it now.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett4:53

       Mm-hmm.

   16. MWMaisie Williams4:54

       And yeah.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett4:55

       Yeah. Um, d- does it... Has it taken you time to like, to con- I asked the question about have you spoken about it before because, um, I think at like, 25 years old, there was like, really foundational things I learnt about myself that, that I only learn... I mean, you know, sometimes you read something or you hear something and you go, "Fuck."

   18. MWMaisie Williams5:13

       Mm-hmm.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett5:13

       "That explains this thing." So my question there is just like, did it take you time to connect those dots?

   20. MWMaisie Williams5:19

       Yeah, definitely. I think that people sort of talk about, like, rewiring... Uh, people on your podcast actually speak about rewiring your brain, but that first... In order to do that, you have to recognize when your, your brain is doing a pattern that you want to rewire, and quite often, like, it's already triggered so many things and, like, you're in a bad mood and you have no idea why, and it's hard to kind of like, trace back from that point. So like, that awareness, um, and like, finding that ha- kind of, for me, had to come first. Like, whe- when it really started to... I don't know. When I really started to understand it, it was like, capturing those minutes where I was like, "Why does that make me feel really uncertain or angry, or like, make me wanna, like...... shout at someone, like, "What, what is that?" And then you can start to go, like, "No, it's okay," and work your way back, you know.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett6:19

       So you were saying, like, social triggers or, or situations where you were... You know, I, I saw you, I saw you sa- said, when you spoke to Lewis Howes, you said, "I've always been quite an anxious person."

   22. MWMaisie Williams6:29

       Yeah.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett6:29

       And I really ref- reflect on that, 'cause I... You know, I'm not an expert in anxiety. I've been anxious myself. I've, I've been an anxious person at times myself. But, um, I, I've always wondered for many years if we're, we're born that way.

   24. MWMaisie Williams6:45

       Hmm.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett6:45

       Or if, if we're predisposed, or if something happens and then we become anxious. Have you... Thinking about how you, you saw sort of social triggers, have you connected any dots fr- re- regarding being an anxious person, as you call it, to those early years, as you've grown up now?

   26. MWMaisie Williams7:02

       Um, yeah. I guess, I think, like a lot of that anxiety, as I started to sort of recognize it, came from, like, not really being myself and, like, then feeling anxious about the way that you're being perceived or whatever. But knowing that you're not really being honest, and that will, of course, make you very anxious. Because if you have no idea who you're projecting, then you really have no idea how other people are gonna hear it, 'cause you don't even know how you mean it. And, you know, that sort of, like, visage of, like, I don't know, whoever, you know, whoever I thought was, like, capable of, like, getting through interviews or social, like, settings or whatever. Um, and I think that, like, struggle with identity and, like, the big questions of, like, "Who am I?", I think that everyone struggles with that. Um, but I think that, like, you know, there's a, a period of your childhood, um, where, you know, certain situations can really stunt, um, like... Or just alter forever, like, who you are going to become. Um, and that's not to say that you can't also just, like, become a very peaceful and, uh, you know, content and fulfilled person. Um, but, like, that sort of basic instinct of, like, "What do I... What brings me joy?" You know, you've kind of second-guessed that a lot as a kid and you're not known, you know, whether to trust what you really think or feel or, you know, whatever sort of, like, mental manipulation. Um, and, and that can, yeah, really have, like, lasting effects. So yeah, kind of, like, discovering that and being like, "Yes, I struggle with, you know, my identity and knowing who I am, so that brings me anxiety because I don't know who to be in a social situation." Um, but then also sort of going back, back, back far enough that you're like, "Oh, I don't know if that person really exists anymore. And that's okay, 'cause I can find, you know, something." Um, yeah, you know, fi- find, like, a, a good version of myself. Um, but yeah, I don't know. How do y- uh, what do you think about that? (laughs)

   27. SBSteven Bartlett9:37

       Um, about which part?

   28. MWMaisie Williams9:38

       Well, I guess, um, like, it feels like a lot of people are trying to retreat to, like, being a child, and, like, the things that brought you joy and, like, who you are at your core-

   29. SBSteven Bartlett9:50

       Mm-hmm.

   30. MWMaisie Williams9:50

       ... and who you are when no one's looking, and, um... Uh, but, you know, can, can that, that part of you be so damaged from a very young age that, that you, you could be searching for something that, um, you know, is just for you to make up (laughs) rather than something that's there?
3. 19:52 – 23:38

   How do you feel about your father now?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett19:52

      As you sit here today at 25 years old, how do you feel about your father?

   2. MWMaisie Williams19:58

      Um ... Well, to be honest with you, I've been thinking about this a lot. Um, and, like, I've- I've been trying to do this thing where I stop taking things personally. And like not just like, you know, when someone's had a bad day and they, like, push in front of you in the queue, but like the big things in life. Like, what if I said that it was n- like it wasn't because of me that that happened. Like, it- it- if it- if I wasn't there, it would've been something- someone else. Like, it's not, um ... Yeah, it wasn't like because there's something wrong with me that like these bad things happened when I was a child. Um ...

   3. SBSteven Bartlett20:58

      Is that a thought you had?

   4. MWMaisie Williams21:02

      Yeah. Yeah. Of- yeah. I felt like there was something inherently wrong with me or us because like we did lots of things wrong all the time, which is like why, you know, you- y- you know, you'd be mistreated or whatever, 'cause you're like, "Oh," like, "we really need to be better at this 'cause we keep doing things wrong and we keep getting in trouble," type thing. Um, but then I was like, well, you know, like w- and especially- well, because it was someone l- you know, my- a parent, and I felt like, "Oh, they're supposed to like r- like you," and so ... You know. But then I was like, well, what if like there's just like no connection between like me being, you know, his daughter (laughs) and like it could've been like literally anyone like experiencing that pain and it would like still be the same? And then, I just kind of could separate myself from it a little bit and I could start to sort of reflect on him as a person and be like, "What happens that you get so stuck in your mind that you can just like, you know, permanently like mis- mistreat people?" Um, you know, w- what ...

   5. SBSteven Bartlett22:25

      Children.

   6. MWMaisie Williams22:26

      Children. Um, like your own children. (laughs) But- but, you know, taking that step back and seeing it like more objectively kind of like makes me quite interested in- in the guy. I don't know him at all. (laughs) Um, and I'm like, "What happened to you when you were a kid?" Like, "Who were your parents? Is this something that you were always like when you were a kid? Did you like pull the legs off bugs? Or," like, you know, "did this- did you learn this?" Like, you know?

   7. SBSteven Bartlett23:02

      These are all the questions that I would ask. (laughs)

   8. MWMaisie Williams23:04

      Yeah. Yeah.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett23:04

      You know? (laughs)

   10. MWMaisie Williams23:05

       And so that's kind of like how I feel about him now, where I'm just like, "What if ..." Like, he would make a fascinating documentary. (laughs)

   11. SBSteven Bartlett23:11

       Yeah.

   12. MWMaisie Williams23:12

       And it's like nice to- to like, you know, not feel the- the personal pain of that anymore, and actually just think like, you know ... I don't know if any of the answers to that will like help me in my journey, um, but it is sort of like a nicer way to think of him than, you know, as like someone who doesn't love me or like me or like whatever.

4. 23:38 – 30:13

   Did you always think you were wrong growing up?

   1. MWMaisie Williams23:38

   2. SBSteven Bartlett23:38

      You know you talked about that feeling that you were to blame for outcomes in your life that might- well, especially as early as your early years, that weren't- you weren't to blame for. Um, were there symptoms of that as you grew up, this kind of- the feeling that, you know, um, when things happen, it was because you did something wrong, or you were- you were to blame for things? Did you feel that as an adult and in your teenage years at all?

   3. MWMaisie Williams24:02

      Yeah, definitely. I think that like I really, um, wanted to control a lot of things that you just can't control because like if I don't, then ... If I'm not worrying or thinking about this or like wanting to control this, then like it's all gonna fall down and like then I'll blame myself and it'll be like-... a- a, you know, something that I could have done better or should have done differently. Um, yeah, I feel like ... I guess it was more just, like, trying to control, like, the uncontrollable and that then leading to, like, another way that I could, like, beat myself down, you know?

   4. SBSteven Bartlett24:48

      It's interesting because I've seen so many other interviews you've done-

   5. MWMaisie Williams24:51

      Hmm.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett24:51

      And without knowing the early context, a lot of those, a lot of the things I was hearing didn't m-

   7. MWMaisie Williams24:57

      Make sense.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett24:58

      Yeah.

   9. MWMaisie Williams24:58

      Yeah.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett24:59

       Not that it e- you know, uh, make sense is maybe an interesting use of words, but, um, it f- it always felt like there was part of your story that was untold.

   11. MWMaisie Williams25:11

       Yeah. It, mm, you know, I think when I was, like, 12 and I'd done, uh, a bit of Game of Thrones and was doing interviews then, like, the first interviews that I'd ever done, I remember people sort of being like, "But you're so young, like, how do you portend, like how do you show this pain? Like, you've just seen, like, the death of your father, or, like, how do you know that, like ... How, no, how do you act that sort of, like, fury?" And it just, like, in my head was like, "That's a really stupid question." (laughs) 'Cause I've known how that feels, but, like, you know, I, it's like, I don't know, something nice to just, like, leave in the past, I guess. But it's, it's hugely influenced, like, ev- everything that I do as an actor, like, I get to access all of that confusion and pain in my job, and I get to, like, really feel it in, like, every fiber of my being. But there's no, like, consequence and there's no, like, you're not really shouting at anyone or hurting someone or it's like, "It's all pretend." But, like, the emotion is, is real and, like, just being able to, like, let that out is something that I didn't do for a long time and so it's like it just all sort of came to the surface, and I guess, like, holding, you know, the early part of my story, like, to myself is also just because I haven't really understood it the way that I have now, and I'm sure I'll, uh, understand it, you know, far better in the future. But I feel, um, I feel like now there's, like, some sort of closure to it, where the journey might help other people, whereas before it was just like pain, pain, pain, pain, pain, pain, pain, and no, like ...

   12. SBSteven Bartlett27:12

       Conclusion or-

   13. MWMaisie Williams27:13

       Right, right.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett27:13

       You know? (laughs)

   15. MWMaisie Williams27:14

       No, like, okay, we're through-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett27:16

       Insight.

   17. MWMaisie Williams27:16

       ... the other side.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett27:16

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   19. MWMaisie Williams27:16

       Yeah, it was just like other problems that come from, like, the same problem, problem, problem.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett27:21

       Mm-hmm.

   21. MWMaisie Williams27:22

       Yeah, um, but yeah, I mean it's like, you know, going into that audition to play Arya Stark, I was sort of surrounded by girls that, like, were joyous and, like, were f- free and, like, like they were kids. They were kids who were happy and, um, you know, had, you know, had whatever they had. Um, and I thought, "Wow, I really, um, you know, here we go again, like gonna be a disappointment." (laughs) But, you know, for that moment actually, that was, that was all they needed, and so that was sort of like a moment in my life where I was like, "Huh, maybe this thing isn't all bad. Maybe there can be something, like, beautiful that comes from, you know, this, this part of myself that I find, like, um, unnatural, like, or, like, just different to- to other kids."

   22. SBSteven Bartlett28:31

       "Here we go again. I'm gonna be a disappointment."

   23. MWMaisie Williams28:34

       (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett28:38

       What do you mean by that? So when you, when you got the role, you presumed that you were gonna let people down, or-

   25. MWMaisie Williams28:44

       Yeah, yeah. No, uh, I, just, like, going into the room I meant, like-

   26. SBSteven Bartlett28:50

       Okay.

   27. MWMaisie Williams28:51

       ... "Oh, no, I'm not gonna be what they're looking for," but I, I did end up being what they were looking for, but, like, you know, I just, um-

   28. SBSteven Bartlett28:58

       Presumed the worst a little bit.

   29. MWMaisie Williams28:59

       ... 20 ... Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, um, yeah. I don't know. D- like, did you, did you, like, always feel, ever feel, like, disappointing to people?

   30. SBSteven Bartlett29:16

       Uh, yeah, (laughs) yeah, of course, yeah, of c- there's been moments in my life where I've definitely feel like I've let myself down and other people down and it's not a good feeling to, to sit with, but I think I've tried to channel it into, um, into making myself ... I actually went for an audition at 14 years old to do The Junior Apprentice. You know The Apprentice, the TV show?
5. 30:13 – 34:42

   Acting took me out of my real world

   1. SBSteven Bartlett30:13

      somewhat optimistic going into situations and generally feel like I've got nothing to lose.

   2. MWMaisie Williams30:19

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett30:20

      Um-And I think maybe that's a bit of a privilege, to be honest. Th- I think mindset privilege is a real thing, just like perspective privilege, something we don't talk about enough and-

   4. MWMaisie Williams30:31

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett30:31

      Um, had I been in an early situation where someone was continually, um, telling me the things that I was d- were doing were wrong or not good enough or whatever, I can quite easily see how I would anticipate that feedback going into anything where f- um, feedback was gonna be given. And it's g- it's actually pretty remarkable. I mean, you know, 'cause those early experiences, you w- you would assume would smash someone's, like, self-esteem pretty severely-

   6. MWMaisie Williams30:57

      Hmm.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett30:58

      ... and, and make them kind of retreat into safe places.

   8. MWMaisie Williams31:01

      Mm.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett31:01

      One of the safest places is where we don't get feedback and someone doesn't shout at us or, you know-

   10. MWMaisie Williams31:05

       Mm-hmm.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett31:06

       But that, that first au- this was your first audition, right, for Game of Thrones?

   12. MWMaisie Williams31:10

       Y- yeah, well, uh, one of th- in fact, I, I had an audition before that which I also was very excited about and then didn't get, so that was like my first, like-

   13. SBSteven Bartlett31:17

       Okay.

   14. MWMaisie Williams31:17

       ... you know, professional rejection. Um-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett31:19

       But you were still putting yourself out there in situations where you could be rejected.

   16. MWMaisie Williams31:22

       Yeah, definitely. And I think it was because I ... the only time that I really felt that joy that I saw in other people was when I was, like, dancing or performing and there was this feeling that I would get that I was like, "This is like ... I feel like human," you know? Um, and so I was like, "I've just got to do anything I can to, like, do this forever." And so from a very young age I was like, "I wanna go to stage school and I want to ... yeah, I'm happy to leave everything (laughs) and go and do that." And, um, yeah, so I, I really ... every opportunity was like, um ... yeah, that, I guess that little part that you said, like, "I've got nothing to lose," it was like, uh, yeah, on the other side of this could be a- absolutely everything, so I, I have to do it.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett32:17

       I read this book. I say read, I watched the summary on YouTube. (laughs)

   18. MWMaisie Williams32:22

       (laughs)

   19. SBSteven Bartlett32:22

       But I'll just say, it sounds more impressive. I read this book called The Body Holds the Score-

   20. MWMaisie Williams32:26

       Yes.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett32:26

       ... dunno if you've ever heard of it, and one of the most fascinating things about it is it talks about how acting and m- moving the body and f- like yoga-

   22. MWMaisie Williams32:34

       Yeah.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett32:34

       ... have been proven to be the best forms of, um, uh, antidepressant, like without, you know, taking SSRIs or anything, they've been proven to ... and I remember thinking, "Acting is a great antidepressant. How is that possible?"

   24. MWMaisie Williams32:47

       Mm.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett32:47

       But what you're saying now rings tr- it talks about how it kind of disassociates from identity when we act.

   26. MWMaisie Williams32:53

       Yeah.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett32:53

       Um, and so what you're saying now seems to-

   28. MWMaisie Williams32:57

       Yeah.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett32:57

       ... validate what I read.

   30. MWMaisie Williams32:58

       I'd love to read that, 'cause that's, like, exactly what I instinctively, like, discovered, uh, like it just happened and I thought, "Ah," like, "this is what I'm supposed to do." Um-
6. 34:42 – 42:29

   Dealing with fame

   1. MWMaisie Williams34:42

   2. SBSteven Bartlett34:42

      The fame piece. I've had a smidge of fame. Like seven people know who I am, right? (laughs)

   3. MWMaisie Williams34:51

      (laughs)

   4. SBSteven Bartlett34:51

      And sometimes it can-

   5. MWMaisie Williams34:51

      Not much.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett34:51

      ... be a little bit difficult, so I can't even- (laughs)

   7. MWMaisie Williams34:54

      (laughs)

   8. SBSteven Bartlett34:54

      ... you know, I can't even imagine, especially with the, the sort of confounding factors of your age, s- trying to figure out who you are-

   9. MWMaisie Williams35:00

      Mm.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett35:00

       ... becoming famous for being a, a character on a huge show-

   11. MWMaisie Williams35:03

       Yeah.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett35:04

       ... um, being in your sort of adolescent years, all of these things all at the same time-

   13. MWMaisie Williams35:09

       Mm.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett35:09

       ... when you look back and y- you know, you, and you ... and I remember you saying about how people were like forecasting your downfall because of all those factors.

   15. MWMaisie Williams35:17

       Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh, it, it, the, the ... actually the strangest thing about it, the hardest thing I think was like needing to articulate who I was and what I loved and the things that I didn't like and what I had an opinion on and what, like, you know. Um-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett35:46

       (laughs)

   17. MWMaisie Williams35:46

       ... uh, yeah, that I remember at the time being like, "Oh gosh, I really don't know anything about anything. I really need to know these things. I need to," you know? Uh, and then (laughs) like, uh, you know, years later you go like, "Oh, uh, I said that my favorite film was this," and like, "That's not true," and blah.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett36:04

       (laughs)

   19. MWMaisie Williams36:04

       And it's like you don't need to know any of that stuff, not like it's all, um, it's all just like a, a journey, right? It's all like there's never like an end. Um-

   20. SBSteven Bartlett36:14

       What advice would you give that person, 13-year-old Maisie?

   21. MWMaisie Williams36:19

       To be honest with you, like I wish that I'd have just, um, like trolled it all a bit more. (laughs)

   22. SBSteven Bartlett36:25

       (laughs)

   23. MWMaisie Williams36:25

       ... and, like, whatever I, like, instead of really digging deep and going, "Oh, what is the real," uh, just, like, whatever you feel that day. That's okay, and it can change the next day 'cause that is just, like, life. You don't have to beholden to anything that you've said or done. You can let it all go and, like, rip up the rule book. C- I hated London, moved back to Manchester, went to New York, and then you're, "Actually, I'm gonna go back to London. Like, this is what I'm gonna do now." Y- and it's not gonna be, like, something that you're like, "Oh, I wish I had not done this." Like, you're like, "No, this is, this is what I want now," and that's, like... That- that's just sort of the way it is. So, I kind of wish that I'd have just, like, you know, not just, like, tortured myself to know, like, what is the real answer to these, like-

   24. SBSteven Bartlett37:07

       Hmm.

   25. MWMaisie Williams37:08

       ... silly, fun questions (laughs) um, and then been like, "Oh, no! I've, like, portrayed myself all wrong. This is not who I am," 'cause it's just, it's like, it's like water. (laughs)

   26. SBSteven Bartlett37:23

       Would you, would you change the timing of the, the events that happened in your life if you, if you could?

   27. MWMaisie Williams37:28

       Like, acting when I was-

   28. SBSteven Bartlett37:30

       Yeah.

   29. MWMaisie Williams37:30

       ... super young? Um, the only thing I really feel, like, w- we didn't have a lot growing up, but, like, I've, I've never-

   30. SBSteven Bartlett37:41

       You grew up on a council h- in a council house?
7. 42:29 – 54:03

   Your identity after game of thrones

   1. SBSteven Bartlett42:30

      post-Game of Thro- you know, I- I- I remember sitting here with s- one of the guys from One Direction, Liam Payne-

   2. MWMaisie Williams42:35

      Hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett42:36

      ... and, um, he talked about how post-One Direction you, he has this identity, which is he's a part of a boy band, and then leaving that, it can be quite troublesome-

   4. MWMaisie Williams42:46

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett42:47

      ... psychologically. Who, and y- I think he talked about the same thing, which is like, "Who am I? Where do I belong? How do I then go and iden- like, f- find out who that person is and start creating for that, and not just being this, this character, this, you know, member of a boy band that I've, that the world knows me for?" Did you ever feel that post, um, Game of Thrones?

   6. MWMaisie Williams43:04

      Yeah, in a way. But I, but I felt like I had got to a point already within being in the show that I was like, "Ooh, I feel like I'm like cosplaying as this like person I've created-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett43:17

      Hmm.

   8. MWMaisie Williams43:17

      ... and I don't think that this really is who I am." So, sort of leaving the show meant that I could leave that as well. Um, you know, I kind of like wanted to like say the right thing and do the right thing, and like act like I had everything figured out, and like be a good role model, and you know, uh, which is all very good things to want, but it's like it wa- it wasn't like very authentic. It was like just like trying to be liked, I guess. Right? And then, you're like, "Oh, I actually, you know, I don't wanna do things that make people, like, happy, because like I wanna do things that make me happy, and like I wanna, you know, represent myself the way that makes me feel most comfortable, um, and not like just the way that's most like palatable or like whatever." And so, I'd, I'd already got to the point where I was like, "Oh, this isn't really me, and I'm like desperate for something to just like drastically change, so as I can like cut from that." And- and that's sort of what happened when the show ended. Then, also sort of sped up by the pandemic and-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett44:20

      Hmm.

   10. MWMaisie Williams44:21

       ... being like in s- uh, like solitary. Um, so I was kind of like very ready for that, and it wasn't like, "Ugh, who am I?" I was kind of like, "Ooh, who could I be?" You know? (laughs) What's next?

   11. SBSteven Bartlett44:33

       21, 22 years old.

   12. MWMaisie Williams44:35

       Mm-hmm.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett44:36

       How are- how are those years for you? So, this is like around the time the show is concluding.

   14. MWMaisie Williams44:40

       Yeah.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett44:40

       I think it concluded when you were 22.

   16. MWMaisie Williams44:41

       Yes, when it came out. Yeah. Um, I just didn't really go out a lot, and I, I just felt quite ... I just, I don't know. It was just like the, it was like the most successful it was ever gonna be, and it was like most people would like recognize you on the street, and, and like I had just got so like rehearsed at like, "Oh, thank you. That's so nice. Uh," and- and I just like everything I said and felt and did, it was just like, oh, none of this is, is like, um ... I just, I felt like very going through the motions of life, where it was like ... yeah.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett45:23

       Acting again. (laughs)

   18. MWMaisie Williams45:24

       Yeah, yeah-

   19. SBSteven Bartlett45:25

       (laughs)

   20. MWMaisie Williams45:25

       ... yeah. Um-

   21. SBSteven Bartlett45:26

       Hmm.

   22. MWMaisie Williams45:27

       ... it wasn't the h- like the h- the hardest like most awful and traumatic, like, "Ugh, it was like terrible." It- it wasn't. It was fine, but I just like, I knew that something better was coming.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett45:39

       At that age though, 20 years old, how'd you feel about yourself?

   24. MWMaisie Williams45:42

       Uh, I didn't really have a very like good opinion of like myself and my self-image. It's, I forget that. I really didn't like myself that much. (laughs) Um, I don't know. I just, I just t- told myself that I was like awful, and disgusting, and like unattractive, and unkind, and like just like not a, a good person, and like unlikable. I just told myself that like every single day. And so, in ways, I sort of became l- like that because, um, you- you just like beat yourself into like a mess, you know? Mind is quite powerful in that way.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett46:31

       Yeah, really powerful.

   26. MWMaisie Williams46:32

       Mm-hmm.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett46:34

       Fern talks to me about this a lot.

   28. MWMaisie Williams46:35

       Hmm.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett46:35

       I know you, you did her podcast, right?

   30. MWMaisie Williams46:37

       Yeah, yeah. I listened to her chatting about-
8. 54:03 – 56:46

   Would you erase any areas of your life?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett54:03

      If I could give you an eraser-

   2. MWMaisie Williams54:04

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett54:07

      ... would you use it?

   4. MWMaisie Williams54:08

      Not a single piece.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett54:13

      Why?

   6. MWMaisie Williams54:17

      Because I feel... I think that there's a point in everyone's life where they experience firsthand that life is extremely unfair. And it can happen at any point.... and it's unavoidable, I think. Well, I don't know. This maybe isn't... In a few years, I might have a different answer to this question. (laughs) But the things I experienced when I was a child, no person should ever experience at any point in their life. But it's taught me so much, and I feel this like com- complex, like- like, um, deep emo- like these complex, deep emotions, um, that are ultimately what I use every single day as an actor. And, um, I can, I can, I, I can recall those things and I'm, I don't know, I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful to understand the deepest pain and fear and also like the most liberating joy and freedom. And like maybe you don't have to go through those awful, awful things to feel that, but I did, and you know, this spectrum of emotions that are like within me, I feel like incredibly fortunate for, 'cause I think that that is something that's different about me.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett56:28

      So you, you g- you go through that phase after being 20, you go through quite s- um, significant, what's the word? Self-disparaging, self-hate, um, as I've heard you describe it. You find it hard to, to, to think or say nice things about yourself. Have you overcome that?

9. 56:46 – 1:00:09

   Are you able to say nice things about yourself now?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett56:46

      Because when you did that interview with Louis, you were talking as if it was in the past.

   2. MWMaisie Williams56:52

      Yeah. I desperately wanted it to be, and I still do. I think that, um, I've got like a lot better at it, um, but you know, whenever, whenever, you know, I sort of fall back into-

   3. SBSteven Bartlett57:12

      Hmm.

   4. MWMaisie Williams57:13

      ... pain or whatever, it always comes back to like this fundamental feeling that like I'm just not worth, like any of it. Like, I'm just like not worthy of like, you know... And that's like, it's like, it's h- it's hard to combat that when you're like, "Well, but I'm really, really talking to myself differently and I'm really trying to like put up boundaries and I'm trying to really respect myself and like do, you know, um, treat myself with some respect." And then you just like still get to this point where you're like, "Ugh." So that's like difficult-

   5. SBSteven Bartlett58:00

      Yeah.

   6. MWMaisie Williams58:00

      ... and like that is something that I struggle with and I have like, you know, periods of a long time where that doesn't happen and then, you know, periods where it comes back again. Um, but yeah, just like keep combating it and telling myself that it's not true and that I am like, I'm worthy of everything in life, of, of whatever I want from life.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett58:30

      Has, has, um, has anything helped, truly? Not like, you know, we say, "Oh, this helped. Uh, here's five tips to help you." Bullshit, bullshit we write in our books and stuff. But has anything truly helped to advance that feeling of worthiness?

   8. MWMaisie Williams58:45

      Yeah. I, meditation and, uh, spirituality, which are two things I didn't have a relationship with for my whole life up until, um, t- 2021. So yeah.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett59:02

      Five minutes ago.

   10. MWMaisie Williams59:03

       Five minutes ago. (laughs)

   11. SBSteven Bartlett59:05

       (laughs)

   12. MWMaisie Williams59:05

       Yeah. So just last year, um, everything, everything really changed after that point. I...

   13. SBSteven Bartlett59:13

       You did mushrooms, didn't you? (laughs)

   14. MWMaisie Williams59:14

       No! (laughs) It was, it was-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett59:17

       Ayahuasca.

   16. MWMaisie Williams59:17

       ... literally just medi- transcendental meditation, um, uh, and, and then like a couple of like very like surreal, life-changing spiritual experiences just like in day-to-day life, like not high or anything, (laughs) um, that I just like couldn't ignore and I felt like, "Oh, I'm like, I'm not alone." Like, you know, like there's something else, um, even on like the hardest days, like there's something here that's like gonna be there, like gonna, you know, take care of me. Um, yeah. And so that's like easier to then just like keep going, you know?

10. 1:00:09 – 1:03:58

    Issues with substance abuse

    1. MWMaisie Williams1:00:09

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:09

       When you were 22, you, you talked about, um, previously having issues with substance abuse.

    3. MWMaisie Williams1:00:17

       Uh, yeah. Well, yeah.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:19

       Did you talk about that or have I just inferred-

    5. MWMaisie Williams1:00:21

       Uh...

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:21

       ... that from your v- y- you used the word substance-

    7. MWMaisie Williams1:00:22

       Yeah.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:22

       ... and I didn't hear you say.

    9. MWMaisie Williams1:00:23

       I mean, I, I feel like I spoke about this a little bit on Louis.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:26

        Yeah.

    11. MWMaisie Williams1:00:27

        Yeah. But like, I don't wanna undermine it, but I guess, who am I say like what normal teenagers do and what normal teenagers don't do, um, but like, you know, I-... t- like, party... like, took-

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:45

        Okay.

    13. MWMaisie Williams1:00:45

        ... a lot of party drugs-

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:46

        Yeah.

    15. MWMaisie Williams1:00:46

        ... and, like, partied when I was-

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:48

        Mm-hmm.

    17. MWMaisie Williams1:00:48

        ... like, a teenager. Um, and I was in the position where, like, I could buy more, but I didn't really do that, uh, you know, to a terrible degree. So-

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:00

        We all partied.

    19. MWMaisie Williams1:01:01

        I-

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:01

        Yeah.

    21. MWMaisie Williams1:01:02

        Yeah, yeah. I... And, but, but, it was, like, definitely something that I was like, "I need to stop doing this if I wanna, like, feel happiness," um.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:09

        'Cause that's a slippery slope. Especially things like s- very accessible things like alcohol even.

    23. MWMaisie Williams1:01:13

        Yeah.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:14

        You know, I've had people very close to me that have, (clears throat) have become alcoholics because of, you know, trauma they've been through and stuff like that. And, uh, do you, do you drink now? Have you... What's your relationship like with alcohol and stuff?

    25. MWMaisie Williams1:01:26

        No, not really. I mean, I, I don't... I'm not, like, sober, um, but I don't, I don't really ch- drink, like, in the house or, like-

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:35

        Mm-hmm.

    27. MWMaisie Williams1:01:35

        ... on a weeknight type thing. It's usually, like, with dinner or, like, you know, at-

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:40

        Same.

    29. MWMaisie Williams1:01:40

        ... a gig or with friends or... Yeah. But yeah, that, a lot of that has, like, quite, um... was quite a welcome, like, release I guess.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:52

        Mm-hmm.
11. 1:03:58 – 1:09:43

    Romantic love

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:58

       we started recording, we talked a bit about Reuben.

    2. MWMaisie Williams1:04:00

       Yeah.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:01

       (laughs)

    4. MWMaisie Williams1:04:02

       (laughs)

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:02

       Your voice changed when I mentioned Reuben.

    6. MWMaisie Williams1:04:05

       (laughs)

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:06

       (laughs) "Yeah."

    8. MWMaisie Williams1:04:07

       (laughs) Yeah.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:07

       And you're, you're wearing a shirt that he-

    10. MWMaisie Williams1:04:09

        I am.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:09

        ... a T-shirt that he designed?

    12. MWMaisie Williams1:04:11

        Yes.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:11

        Created?

    14. MWMaisie Williams1:04:12

        Yeah. Inspired by these artists called Jeanne-Claude and Christo.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:17

        That's dope.

    16. MWMaisie Williams1:04:17

        Husband and wife who wrapped a bunch of iconic landmarks and buildings in fabric.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:25

        So cool.

    18. MWMaisie Williams1:04:26

        Yeah, it's quite cool.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:27

        It's very me, so-

    20. MWMaisie Williams1:04:28

        (laughs)

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:29

        ... um, when I'm not wearing all black to try and be a stoic ominous-

    22. MWMaisie Williams1:04:32

        (laughs)

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:32

        ... in this podcast. Um, what is, how is, how is, how has it been going through trying to figure out romantic love? 'Cause that's a, that was a very difficult thing for me, as I talked about earlier. But how has it been for you? What's that journey been like?

    24. MWMaisie Williams1:04:46

        Um, I think that I, I definitely, like, resonated when you spoke about, um, like, rejecting a lot of, like, relationships, friendships or whatever, because it's, like, cringe or, like, not real or, like, whatever. I th- I feel like I definitely spent a lot of time doing that. And I never really confronted, um, the, the part of myself that, um... I don't know, was like desperate to love and be loved, but I didn't really know how. I didn't really know what that looked like or whatever. Um, uh, I don't really know how deep to go with this. I never, like, had relationships where I was, like, mistreated, um, but that was mostly because, like, my trauma response was, like, whenever there was, like, any hint of, like, I don't know, conflict, I was like, "Mm, I'm out." Like-

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:56

        Same.

    26. MWMaisie Williams1:05:56

        ... "No, I don't... I seen this one before, and I'm not gonna be headwinked by this." But, like, the truth is, is, like, they were just, like, nice people, and I just ran away. Like, you know? And, and cut off, like, whatever emotions were there and just like, "I'm really sorry." Like, "It's not really gonna work," type thing. Um, and then, you know, with... confronted with someone like Reuben, who, um-

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:22

        Confronted. (laughs)

    28. MWMaisie Williams1:06:25

        (laughs)

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:25

        He's like, "Ugh."

    30. MWMaisie Williams1:06:25

        (laughs)
12. 1:09:43 – 1:16:36

    Who are you now?

    1. MWMaisie Williams1:09:43

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:43

       Who are you?

    3. MWMaisie Williams1:09:45

       (sighs)

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:45

       And what are you gonna do?

    5. MWMaisie Williams1:09:46

       (laughs)

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:46

       (laughs)

    7. MWMaisie Williams1:09:48

       Um, I am a, um... (laughs) I'm like a kind and sensitive person (laughs) and I want, uh, an... I want to, like, I want to, like m- I, I want other people to feel happy (laughs) . Like, I want to... I can't, like, bring, like make people happy, but, like, I want to cons- I, like, am considerate of, like, people around me and, like, how they might be feeling or whatever.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:38

       Why is that difficult to say?

    9. MWMaisie Williams1:10:39

       (laughs) I don't know (laughs) . I don't know. I, I don't know. I... If I had to, like, really think about it, maybe it's like, like, um, if I, if I, if that's, like, really who I am at my core, which, like, I, I really feel like I'm speaking from the heart, there's pain there because why was I made to, like, feel like I was such a monster, you know? Yeah. It's painful because I think, like, if I take away all of the things that I project and, like, "Oh," like, "I'm someone who, like, speaks their mind and, like, I don't care what you think." And if I, like, take all of that away and I'm like, "Who am I really?" And I actually just, like, you know, like someone who's quite sensitive and, like, wants to make, you know, want, uh, wants to be considerate of the people around them, like why do, why do you just, like, keep putting things in front of you that are gonna stop you from just, like, being that when who you truly are isn't a bad thing? Like, those aren't bad qualities to have as a person, so why, like, why, you know, why am I so ashamed of that? Or, like, whatever, you know? Like why... Yeah. Why, why am I tripping myself up to, like, not be that? Maybe 'cause, like, once that wasn't good enough, right? And I'm telling myself, like, you know, "That's not good enough." Yeah (laughs) .

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:21

        Seems like it makes sense as an explanation.

    11. MWMaisie Williams1:12:23

        Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:25

        I was thinking, as you were saying it, I was thinking, well, you know, if you've, if at one point you had to be someone else or you had to be... You had to meet expectations in order to be told that you were good enough, expectations that were unmeetable, you might spend your life dancing from one expectation to another just trying to please the world's expectations. And I know you know now 'cause I've heard you talk about it, that expectations are really, trying to meet social expectations anyway, really are the-Slippery slope isn't quite the word, but it- but it is quite a- I think a slippery slope is maybe a good- a good phrase to use, because it's all down from there, isn't it? Once you start playing that game. It's this self-destructive spiral down to-

    13. MWMaisie Williams1:13:05

        Mm-hmm.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:06

        ... a place that's hard to climb out of.

    15. MWMaisie Williams1:13:09

        Like, maybe I don't value just like ... ki- like, just kindness and consi- like, cons- uh, consideration in other people. (smacks lips) I'm just spitballing on this, by the way. Okay?

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:28

        Yes, so am I (laughs) . Yes.

    17. MWMaisie Williams1:13:29

        (laughs)

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:29

        What makes you think you don't value it in other people?

    19. MWMaisie Williams1:13:31

        Well, (sighs) just because I- I have this other sort of theory that I've been, like, stewing for a while, where it's like you- y- you hate the m- like, you- you despise the most, like, what you are. Or like you'll- you'll re- you'll reject the most, like, who you are inside.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:56

        That would make sense if who you were was rejected, right? If you were told that who you were is not a good person, and that is a belief that you have, then if you see that in other people, you'd think, "Well, that's not a good person," because-

    21. MWMaisie Williams1:14:09

        Y- yeah. Yeah.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:11

        That makes sense.

    23. MWMaisie Williams1:14:12

        Wait, can you say that again?

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:13

        Yeah.

    25. MWMaisie Williams1:14:13

        Sometimes it takes me a second (laughs) .

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:15

        (laughs) No, that's fine. I'm just spitballing, uh, as well. But, um, you- you said that you- kindness was a quality that you, um, in other people d- either didn't- you felt you weren't- didn't like or something?

    27. MWMaisie Williams1:14:26

        Yeah, maybe it's something I don't val- like value enough. I don't- like, it- if- I don't think it's- I'm wor- like, if it's mature worthy.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:33

        Well, you were told not to value it-

    29. MWMaisie Williams1:14:34

        Right.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:35

        ... through actions, in a sense. Because you were that, and it was re- negatively reinforced.
13. 1:16:36 – 1:21:05

    What does success in the next 10 years look like for you?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:36

       you're- you're 35 years old, you're sat here again.

    2. MWMaisie Williams1:16:38

       Yeah.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:39

       And you go, "Those last 10 years-"

    4. MWMaisie Williams1:16:41

       Yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:42

       "... they were a good 10 years."

    6. MWMaisie Williams1:16:44

       Yeah.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:45

       Which I'm sure you will say, but if we're sat here, you're 35 years old, I'm like, phew, I'm dead. By then, I'm like 75 or something.

    8. MWMaisie Williams1:16:51

       (laughs)

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:52

       (laughs) I've just turned 30 and I'm like-

    10. MWMaisie Williams1:16:54

        (laughs)

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:54

        ... I'm having a crisis (laughs) . I'll be 40, so.

    12. MWMaisie Williams1:16:58

        (laughs)

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:59

        Um, uh, I love all my 40-year-old listeners. Thank you very much.

    14. MWMaisie Williams1:17:01

        (laughs)

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:01

        Like and subscribe. Um, but you're 35, um, I'm sat here and I'm 40.

    16. MWMaisie Williams1:17:06

        Mm-hmm.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:06

        We're looking back on the last 10 years and we're going, "Yeah, that was really, really a great 10 years."

    18. MWMaisie Williams1:17:10

        Mm-hmm.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:10

        What would've ha- had to hap- have happened in your estimation for that to be true?

    20. MWMaisie Williams1:17:15

        Um ... I guess like, um, like control o- no control. That sounds like ooh. No. (laughs)

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:26

        (laughs)

    22. MWMaisie Williams1:17:27

        Like I- I, um ... I guess it would be like looking back at all of the moments and, you know, seeing- seeing the- the conscious decisions that were made, rather than just like acting on impulse, right? I guess success would be like, that was a point that was really challenging and like, I feel really proud that I didn't slip back into that old habit. Or I didn't like, you know, I- I didn't like just go completely selfish and think like, "Ugh, my problems are the worst in the world." Like, I just like had a bit of perspective and I like picked myself up and I- I kept going. Like, I guess that's like w- I would look back on those moments and feel like those decisions like would define those 10 years, and I'd be like proud- like proud of- of that. Um, yeah.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:18

        Do you have a- do you have a- do you have a sense of mission about you at all?

    24. MWMaisie Williams1:18:22

        Mission? Definitely. I mean, uh, the- the freedom and like the- the joy that I feel through performing, um, and I'm- I've- uh, like it's- it's changed my life, right?

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:43

        Mm-hmm.

    26. MWMaisie Williams1:18:44

        And like we're at a place where, you know, there's a lot of people who want to pu- like, you know, make art, creative people who want to, um-... uh, sustain a lifestyle of, like, making art and, like, h- you know, um, whether that be acting, singing, you know, writing. Uh, and now I guess, like, the mission is, like, I, I want to build companies or, like, um, you know, w- work with people and, like, kind of continue the ethos of, like, um, you know, pushing creative people to be able to sort of, like, sustain a life of, like, you know, creative work. Because I'm, like, in a very fortunate position where I do what I love and what I do also brings me money. And the way that the work makes me feel is, like, the best thing ever and, like, that, those, like, three things, I think, are, like, a foundational piece of, like, being a p- like, a human. And, like, the, it's, like, should not be as hard as it is for, like, people to be in that position. And, um, I, when I, when I'm around, like, down about, like, the world and, like, like, whether it's the government, the environment or, like, like, anything, um, I, like, kind of wonder, I'm like, "What if, like, more people could do what they love for a living? Like, would we actually be in, like, just in a better place?" Like, not that those things, like, influence any of these, like, poor decisions, but, like, I see, like, so much, there's a lot of pain. Like, like, there's a lot of pain w- i- i- in the world and, like, life causes people a lot of pain. And I, and I, um, yeah, I just, I feel, um, feel like m- you know, art and, like, expression through art and, like, channeling, like, creativity, I wonder if that would contribute to making the world a better place. I want for that to contribute to making the world a better place.

14. 1:21:05 – 1:28:39

    Your personality is very different now

    1. MWMaisie Williams1:21:05

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:05

       You're a very different person to the person I watched in all of the previous interviews.

    3. MWMaisie Williams1:21:09

       (laughs) Yeah. Well, I don't, I'm still the same person, but I definitely have a different perspective.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:15

       When I watched, um... 'Cause you did a few interviews about three, four years ago and in those interviews, um, just like, I don't know what it was, you were very, very high energy.

    5. MWMaisie Williams1:21:28

       (laughs)

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:29

       (laughs)

    7. MWMaisie Williams1:21:29

       Yeah.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:29

       Do you know what I mean? Like, very, very high energy.

    9. MWMaisie Williams1:21:31

       Yeah.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:31

        Um, you seemed... (laughs) Yeah, exactly.

    11. MWMaisie Williams1:21:34

        Very that. (laughs)

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:34

        Yeah, yeah, yeah. You seemed to just be very, um, considered and, uh, what's the right word? Very considered and a bit more calm now.

    13. MWMaisie Williams1:21:50

        Then? Oh, now.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:51

        Now.

    15. MWMaisie Williams1:21:51

        Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that that's, like, exactly how I feel and, like, it's so, like, it's so exhausting per- f- like, performing in that way. It's not fulfilling. It's not real. It was like... I guess I was that way as, like, an escape from, from the, the qui- like, the quiet. Like, I didn't know what was gonna be in there when I, like, stopped d- d- d- d- this. Like, I think that it's, like, quite a scary... E- even though, like, on the other side of, like, self-discovery or, like, trauma healing, like, on the other side of it is, like, the answer to all of your problems. Like, it's te- it's, it's terrifying. It's terrifying to look inside you because you've always told yourself that, like, you're not good enough and da, da, da, da, da. And, like, it's terrifying because you're worried you're gonna look inside and be like, "Ugh, all of those things are true." But no, it's, it's terrifying to be like, "Wait, maybe, like, I am actually worth, like, worthy of, like, a good life. Like, and maybe I'm, like, stopping myself from doing that." Like, that's a crime. (laughs) That's not... Like, and I think... I mean, it's like, I've said this a lot, but it is a journey. But, uh, I think it's, it's, it's like a scary thing to start buying off, and then once you start buying off, then you start to realize, like, how selfish that you've been and y- and you, you don't like yourself for, like, a number of reasons, but then you start to... It's like not other reasons to dislike yourself, but it's like you just... I don't know, I feel like I, like, there's, you have one life and, like, and I've been spending all of this time, like, s- stopping myself from doing it. And, like, that's awful f- of myself to do that, but it's also to do that to yourself. It's also just, like, a waste of all of that and there's, like, that other perspective. Um, yeah. But, yeah, just, like, stopping and having that, h- having that sort of, um, con- conversation, I guess, like, with myself has, like, it's changed everything. It's changed, like, and it's been, and it's so much better now. It's so much better and it's less tiring. (laughs)

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:35

        So many people don't, don't wanna go near that onion.

    17. MWMaisie Williams1:24:39

        Yeah.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:40

        You know? They don't wanna-

    19. MWMaisie Williams1:24:41

        Yeah.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:41

        They don't wanna go near it and it's funny-

    21. MWMaisie Williams1:24:42

        Mm-hmm.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:42

        ... 'cause I, I, I, I, you know, sometimes with my own naivety or my own, um-... mindset privilege or because I'm someone that loves introspection. I'm like, "Go on, peel it back. Go on, peel it..."

    23. MWMaisie Williams1:24:54

        (laughs)

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:54

        "Why won't you peel it back? Go on, let's go to therapy. Let's fucking talk about it." (laughs)

    25. MWMaisie Williams1:24:57

        Yeah. (laughs) What more? Yeah.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:58

        You know, I must be a pretty o- uh, uh, d- difficult friend to have if you don't want to peel back layers.

    27. MWMaisie Williams1:25:03

        (laughs)

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:03

        'Cause I only wanna peel back, I don't want small talk, so. (laughs)

    29. MWMaisie Williams1:25:05

        Yeah, yeah.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:05

        But I, but I sometimes encounter people that don't wanna peel, peel back the layers. And it, and it's frustrating 'cause you, you see the consequences of unpeeled back layers-
15. 1:28:39 – 1:31:58

    Were you nervous about coming here and opening up?

    1. MWMaisie Williams1:28:39

       freely.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:39

       Hmm.

    3. MWMaisie Williams1:28:40

       Um, in, with you in this private setting, but like understanding that it's gonna be public because I, I've never really done that, I don't think. Um, and I'm a bit scared. I have to be honest.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:51

       Mm-hmm.

    5. MWMaisie Williams1:28:51

       Like, I'm quite like concerned.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:54

       Yeah.

    7. MWMaisie Williams1:28:54

       A little bit. It's like creeping in.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:55

       Yeah.

    9. MWMaisie Williams1:28:56

       But I really hope that it like, um, can help the people that it's like, you know... Or L- I don't know. Well, I hope. But, um, yeah, I hope that it's okay.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:29:07

        What is, what is the concern?

    11. MWMaisie Williams1:29:09

        Um, I don't know. It's just like that, uh, like the media training part of you that's like, "Don't say this or..." And also, because like a lot of things that I've discussed, like they do concern other people.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:29:22

        Other people, yeah.

    13. MWMaisie Williams1:29:22

        And so, you know, there's that as well. Um, 'cause it, it, it just gets... Yeah, I don't know. But it's, it's fine. It's fine. It's gonna be okay. (laughs)

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:29:35

        (laughs)

    15. MWMaisie Williams1:29:35

        That might sound

    16. NANarrator1:29:36

        Yeah. (laughs)

    17. MWMaisie Williams1:29:36

        ... a little silly. I'm just trying to convince myself. (laughs) Yeah.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:29:40

        Were you, were you, um, were you anxious about coming here today?

    19. MWMaisie Williams1:29:44

        Um, y- uh, yes. But I had prepared. Well, no. I just ha- I wanted... Sometimes I'm anxious because I don't know where it's gonna go.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:09

        Mm-hmm.

    21. MWMaisie Williams1:30:10

        And other times I'm, I'm anxious because, um, I n- I, uh, like, it's like, "Are you gonna be open or not?" Or, "Are you going to be honest or not?" I guess, so yeah. So that was sort of the anxious thing where it was like, you know. I, I went to morning yoga this morning and I was doing breathing exercises in the car. (laughs)

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:31

        (laughs)

    23. MWMaisie Williams1:30:32

        Um, because it's like, it's very easy to slip back into the like, "Ha, yeah."

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:38

        Yeah. (laughs)

    25. MWMaisie Williams1:30:39

        I really like... Yeah.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:39

        (laughs)

    27. MWMaisie Williams1:30:39

        It's like still a part of me.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:40

        Yeah.

    29. MWMaisie Williams1:30:40

        It's still a very, very prominent part of me. So, yeah.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:44

        Why did you wanna do that today? Why did you, why did you want to be, um, open today?
16. 1:31:58 – 1:38:20

    Why we are all artists

    1. MWMaisie Williams1:31:58

Episode duration: 1:52:51