Mary Portas: How To Stop Living A Life That Isn't True To You | E85

1. 0:00 – 3:24

   Intro

   1. MPMary Portas0:00

      I like a really good life, and I have a very good life. (instrumental music) I knew I was a bit different, as well, though, you know? I d- you felt it, right? I did feel different. I was doing TV shows, radio shows. I had my own collection. I had the business. Oh, God, how shit is that life? And I lost me in that. It, there wasn't times where it wasn't fantastic. There was. But where was I? I didn't stop to breathe. We've really fucked this planet for you guys. We were blind. We're blind consumers living a life while we slowly killed the planet and our wellbeing. So, it has to be you guys that go, "No." My mother died when I was, very suddenly of, of, um, encephalitis when I was 16. And she was the center of, you know, the world. And I had to grow up very quickly, and all that misbehavior went into sort of responsibility. This is, this is really painful, yet somehow I'd, I wasn't able to express it. (instrumental music)

   2. SBSteven Bartlett1:09

      Mary Portas, you may know her from the high street, you may know her from business, or you may know her from her books. But the experience I had with her today is honestly incredible. She is hilarious, she is smart, she's witty, and she is willing to be honest at all costs. And that really speaks to one of the central principles she'll talk about today, which is this idea of the importance of being true to yourself. She's made the mistake that 99% of people that are listening to this are going to make, are currently making, or are in the process of overcoming, which is living a life that isn't true to who you actually are. And today, she's also gonna tell you about an idea that will be fairly radical to some people, especially people who are building and have built big businesses, which is based on her new book, Rebuild: How to Thrive in the New Kindness Economy. She has achieved things that most people in business would never even dream of. She's been a media star, she's been a political figure at times, and through it all, through the hardest of times, through grief, through trauma, through broken marriages, through public scrutiny in the press, she has emerged as an incredibly outspoken, honest, humble, intellectually challenging and stimulating, humorous inspiration, leader, entrepreneur, and public figure. I laughed, I realized, and I was deeply inspired. And you will be too. So, without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music) Mary, um, you're a very stand-out person with a very stand-out personality, and you've managed to achieve some pretty remarkable things in your life, and, uh, uh, f- from a place of curiosity, that always makes me wonder what it is that made you different, and I like to always start with people's childhoods and their upbringings because I tend to believe that that's the most influential part of their life typically. So, is there anything from your, um, younger years that you think has been defining in the person you went on to become?

   3. MPMary Portas3:23

      Um,

2. 3:24 – 14:26

   Your early years

   1. MPMary Portas3:24

      I, well, of course, I think that, that, that probably is the case. Um, I was one of five kids.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett3:29

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MPMary Portas3:29

      But I was the fourth out of five. Um, and, uh, we were, my parents were Irish. Ca- had come over in the late '50s from Ireland. My father was a Protestant, my mother was a Catholic, so, you know-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett3:43

      Wow.

   5. MPMary Portas3:43

      ... from Belfast, from the north of it, um, um, of Ireland. So this wasn't, you know, they, they, uh, this was a time when that wasn't looked on too happily. So, they came over and chose Watford to live in. (laughs)

   6. SBSteven Bartlett3:55

      Interesting.

   7. MPMary Portas3:56

      Uh, (clears throat) it could've been Dagenham, but they chose Watford. Those were the two options and, um, I'm kind of proud George Michael, Elton John, so we're, we're kinda... And a good football team. But I think, um, I think looking back on my childhood, my, my elder siblings, we often talk about this, we're very, very close, there's sort of a two-year, one-year gap between us all. And I was the fourth, and I remember vividly thinking, "I'm not the eldest, I'm not the youngest, I'm not the first girl," and I didn't feel particularly special. Um, uh, but so I was very, um, naughty as a child, you know, just spent a lot of time up to pranks and trying to find my voice, I think, really. (clears throat) Very loving household. Um, my father was very high, highly strung, um, hardworking, and my mother was, um, poetical, musical, and, um, was, pushed us academically, put us all through the grammar school system. (laughs) I remember my sister coming home from school and saying, "I'm number two in the class. I looked at the register," and my mother said, "And who was number one?" (laughs) She goes... (laughs)

   8. SBSteven Bartlett5:02

      (laughs)

   9. MPMary Portas5:02

      So, I think that gives you a sort of a taste of what, what life was like. But, um, we were very close, and, um, but my mother died when I was, very suddenly of, of, um, encephalitis when I was 16. And she was the center of, you know, the world. And, um, just by the, the, the place where I was in the family, my elder siblings, my elder brother, Michael, was at university and my sister was just about to go and work, uh, um, go training at UCH, and my other brother was hairdressing, and so I ended up looking after, being the one at home and looking after my younger brother. And I had to grow up very quickly, and all that misbehavior went into sort of responsibility. That's what I think happened anyway. I mean, you know? And I, I just took on the role of the, the, I wouldn't say parent 'cause I was not very good at that at all-... but the one who managed stuff at home. It, and even when my elder siblings then came back, and to this day, you know, it's Mary's house that we meet at, or...

   10. SBSteven Bartlett6:09

       Really?

   11. MPMary Portas6:09

       Yeah.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett6:11

       It's really interesting because I'm, I'm the youngest of four, and I feel like I took on that role, where I feel like I had... Because my parents were absent by the time I was 10.

   13. MPMary Portas6:20

       Why were they absent?

   14. SBSteven Bartlett6:21

       My mum just decided that, I think she decided that she'd raised all of the kids already. You know, like-

   15. MPMary Portas6:26

       Yeah.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett6:26

       It's almost like they've, "Oh, I've done my, my work as a parent. All my brothers and sisters were older than me." So, she would then just sleep at her shop because she was getting burgled a lot at her shop, getting lots of, like, racial attacks on her shop, so she would literally go and sleep in the back room after, after work, wake up, work, go to sleep in the back room, but she had a 10-year-old at home.

   17. MPMary Portas6:44

       Yeah.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett6:45

       And so I just learnt this huge, I had this huge void of independence. I became super naughty.

   19. MPMary Portas6:49

       Mm.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett6:49

       Breaking into my school.

   21. MPMary Portas6:50

       Yeah.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett6:50

       All sorts of stuff.

   23. MPMary Portas6:51

       I set fire to mine.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett6:53

       (laughs)

   25. MPMary Portas6:53

       That was by accident. I thought I could-

   26. SBSteven Bartlett6:55

       It doesn't sound like it.

   27. MPMary Portas6:56

       ... do a little bonfire under the wooden steps, but yeah.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett6:58

       (laughs)

   29. MPMary Portas6:58

       Oh my God, the nuns. I was ru- looked after by nuns, they... Desperate.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett7:04

       The passing of your parents-
3. 14:26 – 25:30

   Your most painful moments

   1. MPMary Portas14:26

      predicted.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett14:26

      When you think about the pain-

   3. MPMary Portas14:28

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett14:28

      ... think of the moments of the greatest pain in your life, what are those moments?

   5. MPMary Portas14:32

      Um, undoubtedly my mother dying.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett14:34

      Mm-hmm.

   7. MPMary Portas14:34

      That- that- that, um, where you wake up and it's (gasps) . It's like something's on your chest. (clears throat) That was j- And I remember it was sunny, sunny, hot. I- I couldn't, I didn't like the summer for years (laughs) .

   8. SBSteven Bartlett14:47

      Really? Because it was-

   9. MPMary Portas14:48

      It was July, hot July of the late '70s, that summer when it was boiling hot. And I just associated that, and I used to love when it became autumn or cold, you could go indoors and hide. It felt like a security-

   10. SBSteven Bartlett15:01

       Mm-hmm.

   11. MPMary Portas15:02

       ... to me. And everybody was out playing tennis or walking-

   12. SBSteven Bartlett15:04

       And happy.

   13. MPMary Portas15:05

       ... and happy and summer. And you're just this heavy, black pain deep inside you. Um, and both separations. I've been, you know, uh, in two big relationships where I've been married and that- that, when you split up a family, and I'm a family person, when you have to sit and go, "Okay, how do I do this? How do I do this? How do I sit with you, my children, and say, 'You know, this little life you've got, this is moving on.'" That was, those... I- I actually remember, you know, lying awake three nights on the row, not sleeping a dot (laughs) and getting up and there must be so much adrenaline in my body. I mean, I don't know. I lost about a stone in weight and I'm pretty slim, but I remember putting on my trousers and they sort of dropped below my hips. I went, "Oh, my God." That sort of stress and pain, but you have to keep going because you are responsible for these children.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett16:01

       That's what I wanted to ask you about is-

   15. MPMary Portas16:02

       Mm-hmm.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett16:02

       ... y- having been through so much stress and pain-

   17. MPMary Portas16:05

       Mm-hmm.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett16:05

       ... which is just this unavoidable part of the human experience. You can't avoid it, right?

   19. MPMary Portas16:10

       No.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett16:10

       If you try and avoid it, you probably end up with more. Um, what are you-

   21. MPMary Portas16:14

       Rumi talks about the bruises, the poet, Sufi poet Rumi, the bruises and how we learn from those bruises.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett16:20

       Tell me about that.

   23. MPMary Portas16:21

       Well, he's just one of my great... I've- I've discovered him, um, a 13th century Sufi mystic, and he talks about the bruises that we hit and how they repair, but that's how we grow.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett16:35

       What have you, what have you learned about how to cope with unexpected bullshit and pain that life throws at you? I- 'cause, you know, uh, you never see it coming. I mean, a lot of people have had it over the last 12 months, right? Last 18 months with the pandemic, couldn't have seen that coming. Lots of people's businesses just smashed to pieces. They've lost loved ones. How does one cope with that kind of, like, grief, whether it's a professional grief or a, you know, um, the g- the g- grief of a lost loved one or the grief of a lost relationship? Uh, uh, is there anything you've learned over the course of your life where you think that's probably the best or only approach?

   25. MPMary Portas17:14

       Well, there is the wonderful line of this too shall pass, and it does. Um, for me, I have found great, great resolve from some of the great teachings and the philosophers who I have read for a long time now, probably about 15, 20 years. And- and even if we look at the basis' of most religion, which is a patriarchy and it's been completely screwed and bastardized by most men, but actually if you look at the truth of the heart of it, it's much the same thing that we all have to follow. And you have to just connect deeply with your inner whatever you call it, whether it's your spirit, whether it's your soul, whether it's your, as Oprah says, "My inner frequency." You know when that gets shoved or you're not aligned, that's when you start to behave and you follow whatever's happening to you rather than actually connecting truly back with your strength, your resource. Um, so that for me has been, and I've tried to guide my children on that, and actually...... found that that has been- I wish someone had done that a little bit more. It was, it was shrouded in religion when I was a kid, the Catholic faith, which I just could not connect with at all. You know, my mother literally. You know, going to confession. (laughs) Used to go into a church and see these 80-year-old women beating their chests and saying, "Dear God," you know, "I've sinned." You think, "What's she done?"

   26. SBSteven Bartlett18:36

       (laughs)

   27. MPMary Portas18:36

       You know, this is crazy. This isn't, this isn't life. What the (mumbles) are kneeling down, beating her chest. That's not what the world's about. You know, th- that's what I've discovered, is if you try and get back to your essence and know, and try and align and connect with some deeper strength, whether it's through meditation or whether it's just pause (breathes in) and breathe, it will come through. And it does. Uh, um, that's not to say we sh-... We have to go through grief. We have to go through mourning. We have to let that go through our bodies. Leaving it in your bodies is the worst thing you can possibly do, and I've done that over the years. And I've had my back put out, I've been laid low, because it's in there. So I've, I've learnt to do that. I had... You know, at first, when COVID hit, it was shocking for me. I mean, all my clients in my business, which has been my backbone for 21 years, just closed down. And, and nobody said, "Are you guys okay?" They just stopped work. I had 55 people. Well, what the actual fuck is happening here? And I'm talking to my kids about being connected to your source, and I'm like, "Jesus wept, I've gotta pay for all this." (laughs) And I don't know where I'm gonna do this, and I'm just looking down the barrel at 60, and I suddenly went into that complete fear and was like, "You need to pull this back." I, I was actually pretty... I felt... I was a little bit ashamed that I wasn't better, if I'm honest. I, I was such a shock. Such a shock. And I've written about it in the first chapter of my book, 'cause I want... It was so shocking. And it was like, well, they were falling down like dominoes, the, the, the clients, and we were like, what we thought, as a business, was just going (imitates buzzer) . Um, and it just, slowly but surely, I kept on connecting back to that sense of me, that deep truth, that the world will look after you. Th- there was a great interview I heard, and I can't remember who it was. And I, I can't remember, I'd like to think, but I remember he was a, he was, um, uh, a philosopher, and he, and he said... We're talking about money, and he said, "Think of a time when you've never had enough." Can't think of a time when I've never had enough money. I've had very little money, but I've lived, and I remember just holding onto that.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett20:51

       Mm-hmm.

   29. MPMary Portas20:52

       When, when has the world never, ever truly looked after you? And if you can realign back into that sense of connecting and not go for the short term, whether it's, you know, following a route that you're, you're, you're trying to short-term fix it through stress or through that anxiety, and you connect back to that true source, it always works.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett21:17

       You said, uh, uh, during the pandemic, you, you felt... It, it almost looked as if you were saying you felt shame that you weren't good enough. I wanted to re- to get a more detail on what you mean by that.
4. 25:30 – 37:15

   Remote working

   1. SBSteven Bartlett25:30

      And there's a huge debate now about what the new normal will look like, especially as it relates to working and remote working. And I wanted to get your stance on this whole remote working debate. I'll give you my opinion first because my opinion tends to be quite controversial. I tend to think people have overestimated the, um, remote working thing. And I say this because I believe that the office is one of the last sort of institutions of, like, community and human connection. Dating's gone, socializing, Facebook, social media. Dating, we now have all these dating apps. And it's felt like in my life, especially as like a 25, 26-year-old, whatever, that going to the office was actually one of the places I actually got to meet people in my life, and, and connect, and form communities, and go to a football team as an adult. And if that all moves to Zoom now, like every other part of my life is, uh, dictated by a glass-illuminated screen, I worry. Um, and, uh, we have had people sat in the chair from mental health psychologists and all sorts, and the, the, the consistent theme for them has been if you can give someone community and connection in their life, then they, um, then they do better, they are healthier. And I felt like the office, especially... And I know you've got an amazing office. I've read about it. I've, I've read about the atmosphere there and, and how impressive that is. And we also went to great lengths. It's... Uh, when I was reading about your office, it felt a lot like mine.

   2. MPMary Portas26:47

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett26:48

      We've... It's not hierarchical. You wouldn't know-

   4. MPMary Portas26:50

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett26:50

      ... who was in charge. People are themselves. It's very flexible and open. We don't have these rigid, archaic systems in place. And so it was a really enjoyable place to be. And I would hate for that, places like that to be, um, to disappear. I think the old office has to change, and die, and be reinvented. But I wanted to get your take on that.

   6. MPMary Portas27:09

      Well, I think you said it. I think, you know, I think, I think there's a lot of businesses jumping on the bandwagon, thinking, "How can we, you know, save money on rent?"

   7. SBSteven Bartlett27:16

      Mm-hmm. Yes.

   8. MPMary Portas27:18

      And not looking at the mental health wellbeing. I've seen this. I've opened my offices. We opened them up as soon as we could.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett27:23

      Yeah.

   10. MPMary Portas27:24

       Uh, we have two days where we say, "We want everybody in."

   11. SBSteven Bartlett27:27

       Mm-hmm.

   12. MPMary Portas27:28

       Because we believe that is everything you've talked about. And I know even when I go in and I will see them all, and we will have a laugh, and we'll talk about stuff that's not even in the work world, but those nuggets, those little messages, those little nuances that happen are what makes us human. It, it's ridiculous to think we don't... I heard Google aren't opening theirs up for another year, and you think, "What the actual? Stop this. Have they actually asked their people?" I have a young daughter who's been working at home consistently since she went out of the world of work, and it is not good for her mental wellbeing. And I have watched my children get up at 8:00 AM and go straight on Zoom. That was... Where's the, where's the travel time where you listen to a podcast, or you listen to a piece of music, or you read something, or you bump into someone on the street and say, "Morning. Do you fancy a coffee? Yeah." I say, where has that gone out of our lives? We take this away, and we take what it is to be human. If you... When I did my High Street report, I talked about exactly what you're talking about. If we lose this, we lose what Jane Jacobs, who wrote The Death of the American City, back in the '60s, well before I talked about this, she talked about those little things where you bump into someone on the street and you say, "Morning." Or you're getting a newspaper and you say, "Can your daughter babysit tonight?" She said, "These little things are trivial, but the sum isn't trivial at all." It is a social infrastructure, a web of security that makes us human. The office is the same. The office is the same. Now, I started in my office with saying, "You got a baby, you can bring it in. Bring dogs in." The in- this was like 10 years ago, they were like, "What?" You know, we need to ease up and realize that we need more of this in our lives. I've had to sublet parts of my office because we had too much space. But we bloody went out and sublet and fought because we wanted to keep it because I knew that this was deeply important, especially to your generation. And, you know, I know there's people, and, and my kids have seen it, they, they, they said, the, the sort of 40 pluses, "Yeah, it's nice having some time out." I understand that. You can pick up the kids. You c- Of course. But let's get that balance. Let's get that balance. And you're right. The more we close down, the more we squeeze our little souls, because those small trivial things are what make up our lives. I know that. So I would be so pro it, and I, I really think this needs to be the things that are part of our society which are deeply important that do need bloody government intervention. I know Tories don't want to intervene, and it's a free market and all that crap. Transport's one. Our high streets are one. Our, our National Health Service is another. And the way we work and connect I think is another. So I would be putting this on the agenda. I heard it on one of those...What is it called? Question Times, which I keep getting asked to go on, and I think, "Oh, dear God." Um, and I was listening to it, I was there, and nobody... It was all these sort of aging politicians who weren't running businesses, who didn't see the impact of not... of, of getting together. It's- it's vital. Please, please, anyone listening... And if you're listening and you're a Millennial or a Gen Z and you don't think you've got any power, pull together, get your pals, and put pressure at the top, and ask them, "Open back up."

   13. SBSteven Bartlett30:53

       I think that clip will go viral on LinkedIn, so that's- that's great.

   14. MPMary Portas30:55

       (laughs)

   15. SBSteven Bartlett30:55

       I think you're gonna reach a lot of people with that one. (laughs) My LinkedIn's very highly engaged, so I think that will bang. Um, but no, I, you know, I think that I'm more at ease, because I think in the professional world, it's gonna become a battle of, um, employees choosing where they wanna spend their time and where they wanna work. And so my objective here isn't to... So what I, what I tend- what I feel like I saw was these kind of fragile, c- c- dare I call them leaders in business, doing all this kind of virtue signaling on, on social media and online, going, "Oh, we're gonna let our employees decide, and if they wanna work..." And I- I've said publicly, like, you... as a leader you have to have a backbone, and your company culture should be reverse engineered from the mission. So, you know, if you're, if you're, I don't know, building cars then you, you need your people at the factory, but also work should be... it should offer more than just pay. And if it is to offer more than pay, something meaningful, it would be community, connection, and these things. So my stance as an employer is, I'm gonna create the en- environment which offers you more community than you're gonna get anywhere else, good pay, more fr- more flexibility around things that matter in your life, kids, et cetera, and I think I'll be able to hire all your staff that you have working from a Zoom screen at home. And I think eventually you'll figure that out and you'll go back. But-

   16. MPMary Portas32:05

       Yeah.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett32:06

       I... and that's my-

   18. MPMary Portas32:06

       Sucker.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett32:07

       Yeah. (laughs)

   20. MPMary Portas32:08

       (laughs)

   21. SBSteven Bartlett32:08

       That's what I think. I think it's a competition-

   22. MPMary Portas32:10

       I'm with you.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett32:10

       ... of like... You know what I mean?

   24. MPMary Portas32:10

       I'm with you.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett32:11

       Yeah.

   26. MPMary Portas32:11

       You know, it's- it's... Look, you, you... A- as I say, you're younger. I- I remember when I read Work Like a Woman. I was like looking at this and thinking, "Who, who created the codes?"

   27. SBSteven Bartlett32:21

       Mm.

   28. MPMary Portas32:21

       "Who wrote this shit? How do we wanna work?" I want people in my business that have a voice, that feel... I will sit with a 23-year-old, and I know we'll sit and have a great conversation as much as I will with a 45-year-old who's running the business. I... We've actually put that with these two days when the chief exec's in, we want everyone in, because this is the time when we learn, this is the time we laugh, and we really do laugh. I mean, I'm the biggest joker, the biggest kid in the office, and my... And my daughter's been coming in so she can get some... just some interaction. She works in food policy, 'cause I'm in completely different... And she goes, "Mum, you're the biggest kid." I said, "I know. I need people around me. I need it, and I love to laugh." And it's just fantastic when you're in an office and you hear that. And it's not difficult, this stuff. You know, it's all about... When you feel as confident as you do, you're able to give up that control.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett33:12

       Hmm. Yeah.

   30. MPMary Portas33:14

       That's what you're giving up. And you're saying, "You know what? I, I know who I am, and I want you, who works with me, to know who you are. And so let's give up that control." That doesn't mean that I'm gonna have any lazy bastards coming in and, you know, sauntering in whenever they want and taking... No. No, no. I talk about the kindness economy. The kindness economy is doing what's humanely right. It's not taking the piss. So you have very s- you know, strong ethos and ethics and guidelines of what you believe your business is and where you want to go, but let everybody be themselves within that. And part of that is connection. I mean, it's fine for me sitting in my North London h- you know, home working, or I'm in the Cotswolds. What about the ones who I've seen them on Zoom in their bedroom sharing a flat? You're waking in there and you're doing Zoom. And if any owner of a business or organization isn't understanding that, shame on you.
5. 37:15 – 48:22

   Losing myself in the madness

   1. SBSteven Bartlett37:15

      it all and having more stuff, we thought that was it, which leads me into something else I wanted to talk to you about. I read you'd said, um, that you were in the public eye, you were making more money than ever, and it was extraordinarily exciting, but at the age of 48, you found yourself crying almost every day.

   2. MPMary Portas37:29

      Mm-hmm. I was probably physically exhausted. Um, I just didn't get that joy, you know. I just was on this... I was doing TV shows, radio shows, I had my own collection, I had the business, I had two kids. I, it was, it was crazy. And, and I was the matriarch, I was at the center. It wasn't like, you know, I had some husband who was

   3. NANarrator37:56

      (laughs)

   4. MPMary Portas37:56

      ... radio with me. It was me, you know. And I thought, yeah, but I... And the more c- that comes, you'll know this, the more it comes, the more it comes, the more it comes. It comes, keeps coming, keep coming, keep coming, you've gotta do this, gotta do that. And there were parts to it that was just, you know, incredible. I look back and think, "What gr- some great years," but I was exhausted. And you're not allowed to say that, actually. I was thinking about that, that you... At that time, there would be those, you know, women on the front of the Sunday Times magazine like that. We can't show our pose, but it'd be like that.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett38:26

      (laughs)

   6. MPMary Portas38:27

      You can have it all. And they got eight kids, and they would get up and they would be doing, you know, yoga at 6:00 AM and then having a global call with China or whatever. Then, you know, they'd be r- bringing, dropping the kids off at school while chatting to god knows whoever's sorting out the day. And you just thought, "Oh God, how shit is that life? Where are you? Where are you?" And I lost me in that. It, it, there wasn't times where it wasn't fantastic. There was, but where was I? I didn't stop to breathe. I didn't stop to truly connect, truly connect with me. And I remember I went away, um, to some very expensive spa place where it was all Om Shanti and downward dogs and eating nice stuff.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett39:17

      (laughs)

   8. MPMary Portas39:17

      (laughs) And everyone's all listening. You know, you go where rich people are because you got money, and you go and you discover, you... And, um, and I remember sitting in this yoga session, and I just was crying. And I was like, "Oh God, please stop. Please stop, Mary. Please stop." And there was all these sort of women in their Lululemon, and I was going, just crying. And I thought... A- and I went in to, um... There was this wonderful Indian guru who used to sit in this little room where she could go and meet and chat with. And I remember going in to see him, and he didn't say a word, and I just was crying. I didn't want to speak with him, but I wanted to go to the bookshelf that was behind him, 'cause I knew there was some books there. And I picked up Eckhart Tolle's Bre- uh, New Earth. And I just took it, and as I left, he went, "That's the right one."

   9. SBSteven Bartlett40:05

      (laughs)

   10. MPMary Portas40:07

       And I went back to my room and I read it, and I read it on the beach today so I was like, "Oh my God, I've got the world wrong. I've just completely got this wrong." And that was a start of my journey. It took many a year, but I'm still, you know, getting, still partly hybriding that life. I'm never gonna sit in a, an ashram. But I f- I discovered how to connect back truly with me and stop loading this stuff in your life, Mary.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett40:36

       And, and-

   12. MPMary Portas40:36

       And saying no.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett40:38

       ... two questions there, which is regarding this book, this-

   14. MPMary Portas40:41

       Mm-hmm.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett40:41

       ... Eckhart Tolle book that you, you talk about. Um, A New Earth. What was it, what was the, the key lessons that it imparted on you about life and how you were living?

   16. MPMary Portas40:53

       I'm, I was living totally outwardly to my ego and my persona. Mary Portas, Mary with the bob, Mary the businesswoman, Mary the mother. I was not connecting truly with who my spirit, my soul. So everything was done to feed that. And you believe that that is you. You believe that that is your personality. You believe all of that. And-

   17. SBSteven Bartlett41:17

       You talk about you thought you, you'd become a bit of a caricature.

   18. MPMary Portas41:20

       Oh, for sure, but I also milked that. That was very profitable. (laughs)

   19. SBSteven Bartlett41:26

       (laughs)

   20. MPMary Portas41:26

       But you know, it, I, I knew-

   21. SBSteven Bartlett41:27

       That's TV, right?

   22. MPMary Portas41:28

       ... it was brand Mary, the red bob, the rings.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett41:31

       Mm-hmm.

   24. MPMary Portas41:32

       You know, I've always loved fashion, I've always loved... But it was very much, you know, a signature. So... And, um, yeah. Yeah, of course. I mean, I, I, I advise businesses globally on brands. I was, I suppose, a brand my own self. And I, I just didn't wanna be that anymore.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett41:48

       Philosophy is very clear on this idea of like abandoning your true self and what-

   26. MPMary Portas41:52

       Mm-hmm.

   27. NANarrator41:52

       Mm-hmm.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett41:52

       ... and the consequences of that.

   29. MPMary Portas41:52

       Your ego, your outer ego.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett41:54

       Yeah.
6. 48:22 – 51:05

   Labelling your sexuality

   1. SBSteven Bartlett48:22

      married a man-

   2. MPMary Portas48:22

      I did marry a man.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett48:23

      ... and then a woman.

   4. MPMary Portas48:24

      Then I married a woman. And I'm with-

   5. SBSteven Bartlett48:25

      You're with a woman.

   6. MPMary Portas48:25

      ... a woman now. Well, I never... It, it's interesting. I, I don't, I don't know whether female sexuality is particularly different from male sexuality. But I'm, I've been in love with-... two men in my life and I've been in love with two women. I've never sort of, I never, as a child, thought, "Oh my God, I'm a lesbian. I fancy Linda Evangelista, I've got to do something about it." And I had relationships with women and I had relationships with men, and, uh, it just didn't ever bother me. Um, but once I had fallen in love with a woman, and I remember, you know, saying to my sister, she was like, "But you're not a lesbian." I said, "Well, I don't know. What I am? Do I have to put a label to it?" And the interesting thing is, when I did and, and, you know, and married, uh, Mel, th- all the prides and the, you know, they all grab hold of you and put lesbian (laughs) and you're like, "Oh, okay, well I've gotta do this for the sake of (laughs) all of you and be a voice." Which I wanted to be, but you kind of also go, "Now you're also labeling me."

   7. SBSteven Bartlett49:26

      Yeah.

   8. MPMary Portas49:26

      It was a really diff- but I also don't wanna let you down, Stonewall. And I will do the opening speech at Pride because I know you need women, and I've just had another one that came through on, you know, LGBT Virgin Radio, "Mary, would you go and do..." Right. I don't wanna be also categorized in that way, 'cause I'm not that.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett49:41

      It's a form of prison as well though, isn't it, Stonewall?

   10. MPMary Portas49:43

       Well, it is. But I also don't want to not be a voice, because I think it's important for... You know, when, when I did, uh, meet Mel, there was n- there was no women in the public eye, besides Sandi Toksvig, who were in same-sex relationships. And I remember this with my children having to, you know, when they went to school, there was no books on it. I mean, I'm talking, what are we? Milo's now 26, so I'm talking, you know, he was nine.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett50:10

       Mm-hmm.

   12. MPMary Portas50:10

       There wasn't. So I thought I had to do that. And I did it, and I, I don't mind doing it, but, you know, there is a fluidity to it.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett50:19

       Labels are good and bad, yeah?

   14. MPMary Portas50:20

       Yeah.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett50:20

       Those kind of labels, those, like, s- socially categorizing labels where they put you in the label b- because they, A, maybe wanna understand you, but because they want you to rep, like lead the charge of a movement. I get that you're obviously a young, Black-

   16. MPMary Portas50:32

       Yeah, yeah.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett50:32

       ... you know, guy in business.

   18. MPMary Portas50:33

       Yeah.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett50:33

       There's not actually many of, many of us up here-

   20. MPMary Portas50:35

       Yeah.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett50:35

       ... in the young, Black-

   22. MPMary Portas50:36

       Yes.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett50:37

       ... male category.

   24. MPMary Portas50:37

       So you kind of go, "Well, I've gotta do that."

   25. SBSteven Bartlett50:38

       I, like, represent them. (laughs)

   26. MPMary Portas50:40

       (laughs)

   27. SBSteven Bartlett50:40

       And I'm only actually half-Black. I'm as Black as I am white, 'cause my-

   28. MPMary Portas50:42

       Mm-hmm.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett50:42

       ... my dad's white and my mum's Black, and I'm like, "I will represent the Black," you know? (laughs)

   30. MPMary Portas50:46

       Yeah.
7. 51:05 – 53:48

   Listing to your intuition

   1. MPMary Portas51:05

   2. SBSteven Bartlett51:05

      Intuition.

   3. MPMary Portas51:06

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett51:07

      A topic I've, I heard you talk about a lot. You'd said previously that the biggest mistakes in your life had come from not listening to your intuition.

   5. MPMary Portas51:14

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett51:16

      What comes to mind when I say that? Which mistakes?

   7. MPMary Portas51:19

      I think, you know, I, I think I'll know when I, I, I needed to have got out of, you know, relationships and it kept telling me something and kept telling me, and you're like, "Oh, no. No." I've suppressed that. I've suppressed it in times where I've, you know, thought... In business, "I don't particularly like this person, and yet they're paying me a lot." I've suppressed that, and it always ends up, always, you know. You feel it. You feel it. And ideas sometimes, you know, ah, they just come. If you're really, really feeling free and in tune, they just come and they're, they're wonderful. It's been my, it's been my, not sure it's yours, but it's been my, you know, ability to sort of feel something deeply and know that that's right. And you can get people that can analyze, put data behind it, logic, and I've listened to them in the past and I've let things go. Gone, "Oh." Not regret, but "Oh. That," you know. Uh, e- even, you know, now I- I've always thought, I've always wanted to do, and it's just trying to get an idea, you know, a totally sustainable, secondhand, recycled, vintage, c- take a whole space, like a massive mall that's closed down and create tomorrow's. Where you- everything is about, you know, recycled, upcycled, vintage, re-made. And I've got to get on and do that, but it's too big sometimes. (laughs) Everyone goes, "No, no, no, I'm not sure how that could work. How do you m-" But I just know it will, you know? And so I have to follow the instinct on, on doing that. But I think just, just sometimes you just, it's the small things as well, it's just the small things where you feel it's come from there and you push it down because you put too much logic and reason behind it. And I think in business, we need to let that open up so much more. Certainly in my area of business, um, I reckon we ended up with such, so many crap businesses because logic, data and systems overtook instinct, creativity and innovation, and we need to bring that back. And, uh, and interestingly, you talking about high streets, what has come back is people understanding the importance of connection and community through high streets, and we will see that coming back. Um, and I, you know, I had, uh, the Labor Party get in touch with me and saying they wanted to re-, you know, look at what we were doing on the high street report 10 years ago. 'Cause when I did it 10 years ago, they didn't understand that. It was ab- all, all about bottom line. All about bottom line.

8. 53:48 – 59:43

   Advice for the younger generation

   1. MPMary Portas53:48

   2. SBSteven Bartlett53:48

      What's your view on, uh, the younger, younger generation coming up? You know, there's a lot of, I think we talked off, off microphone about, um, some of the themes coming out of, you know, this, this, uh, Instagram generation. Like, you know, it's like really binary cliches, like find your passion. There's this idea that, like, um, working hard is now toxic. Um, and just generally, what do you, what, what's your, what's your s- if you were to impart advice or you were to give a perspective on this kind of, like, Instagram generation, who, and their perspective of the working world, um, what advice would you have for them?

   3. MPMary Portas54:22

      I think, you know, there's, there's, there's the good, the bad and the ugly, isn't there? I mean, I think it- it's, I think it's a really (laughs) tough world to be in, that you are always on.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett54:32

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   5. MPMary Portas54:32

      That's a very tough place to be.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett54:34

      Mm-hmm.

   7. MPMary Portas54:35

      Um, and I purposely, you know, i- i- don't do as much, even though I should be, you know. Because I just say, I only wanna do something when I really have something to say. And I know it drives some of my agents around the bend, you know.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett54:47

      As in social media?

   9. MPMary Portas54:48

      Yeah.And I think it's deeply difficult. I think we've got two strands coming through. I think we, it's used as an incredible place for voice and change to happen, and I think the Gen Zeds are going to be probably the best generation that we've seen in a, in a very, very, very long time. And the more I read about them, the more my, I have a social anthropology unit at, in my agency. The more we research this, the more I utterly love them, and I more, I want them to make this world better. And I think they will, and you young millennials, absolutely, I think... And I think there's a lot that comes out of it that's fantastic. The other part of it is, oh boy, I would love to change what are now used as icons and role models, especially around beauty, fashion, and young women. It is just too much to live up to, and I, I, I find it, uh, that I find just terribly stressful for individuals, and the way that they've been sold how they need to look, how they need to behave, how their body needs to be, and what their beauty regime should be. It's, it's ridiculously tough. And I, you know, I, I live in a society where I'm seeing a young generation that are pushing against that, but there's an awful lot of young women, particularly, and men-

   10. SBSteven Bartlett56:01

       Mm-hmm.

   11. MPMary Portas56:01

       ... out there, who, how they are looked and how they're perceived and what their life is like. And, and 40 pluses. I, I look at some people on Facebook and I think, "Really? You still doing this shit?"

   12. SBSteven Bartlett56:11

       (laughs)

   13. MPMary Portas56:12

       "You need to go out there and show what new shoes you've bought or what you had for brunch or where you ate? Really? Really?"

   14. SBSteven Bartlett56:19

       Mm-hmm. Isn't it a bit of a pyramid scheme in a, in a-

   15. MPMary Portas56:21

       Yeah.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett56:21

       Not a pyramid scheme, maybe like a network marketing scheme in some respects, or, uh, some kind of like network effect? Because what's happening is you, let's say you've got, I don't know, the Kardashians at the top. Then you've got people below them looking up at the Kardashians and thinking, "Fuck, do you know what? I need to get a fake bum and I need to change this, and I need to change this, and I need to post when I'm wearing my Chanel bikini on the side of that boat."

   17. MPMary Portas56:43

       Mm, mm-hmm.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett56:43

       So they follow suit-

   19. MPMary Portas56:44

       Mm.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett56:44

       ... which then cascades downwards-

   21. MPMary Portas56:46

       Mm.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett56:46

       ... and everyone's just trying to-

   23. MPMary Portas56:47

       This is what I'm talking about, the pressure. I'd love the Kardashians to turn around and say, "Let's not buy any more stuff and let's recycle." Wouldn't it be brilliant?

   24. SBSteven Bartlett56:54

       Yeah.

   25. MPMary Portas56:54

       Imagine what that would do for-

   26. SBSteven Bartlett56:55

       Can you imagine?

   27. MPMary Portas56:55

       ... consumerism.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett56:57

       Tha- that's probably the mo- the most impact they could have on the world, is-

   29. MPMary Portas56:59

       Yes.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett57:00

       ... if they just cut out the fakery and-
9. 59:43 – 1:06:37

   So you don’t get excited either?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett59:43

      You said, you know, uh, was something that I, I thought maybe I was the only person in the world that also felt, which was, before we started recording, you said that you don't get excited about things.

   2. MPMary Portas59:54

      Yeah, I mean, I have great things in my diary where someone says, "Oh, aren't you excited you're doing that tomorrow?" And I just think, "No, I just don't get excited." And you said you don't either.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:03

      I don't, no. Well, I, so I didn't actually say anything, but then, uh, my, my camera guy here, Jack, that's worked with me for some time says, "Steve always says that." And it's because there's people who will say to me, "Oh my God, you're doing this next week?" Or, "You're going on holiday," or, "Going to this place," or, "You're speaking in Dubai."

   4. MPMary Portas1:00:15

      (laughs)

   5. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:15

      "Are you excited?"

   6. MPMary Portas1:00:16

      I go, "No."

   7. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:17

      And yeah, when they hit me with a question, I go...

   8. MPMary Portas1:00:19

      "No."

   9. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:20

      No. (laughs) I just find-

   10. MPMary Portas1:00:22

       Should be trying to work that through-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:22

       Yeah.

   12. MPMary Portas1:00:22

       ... 'cause I've never sat with anyone and worked that through-

   13. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:24

       Yeah.

   14. MPMary Portas1:00:24

       ... or talked that through. And, and it, and it... But it doesn't stop me really enjoying, like, and-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:31

       Experiences in the moment.

   16. MPMary Portas1:00:31

       ... the experiences and there and now. I don't put it up there. Maybe that's the thing.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:36

       For me, I thought, and I might be wrong, but maybe we're gonna work it through now. I thought m- my lack of excitement was a defense mechanism because I also need to defend against going down when bad things happen. So I think over time, I've just, uh, de- developed this character trait where I'm just here in the moment, focused on what I have to do right now, and I'm trying to be stable and calm. So I don't swing upwards with great news. I don't swing downwards too heavily with bad news. And that also means I don't swing too far into the future or swing too far into the past. And it-

   18. MPMary Portas1:01:07

       That's a really good analysis.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:09

       ... maybe that's it.

   20. MPMary Portas1:01:09

       Maybe that is it.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:09

       Maybe that's it. Because my friends get excited about-... small things and big things.

   22. MPMary Portas1:01:13

       ... this holiday." "Oh, we've got dinner."

   23. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:14

       "I've got dinner." Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   24. MPMary Portas1:01:15

       "We've booked in, we've got that- that dinner, got that table at Brighton."

   25. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:17

       Yeah, yeah.

   26. MPMary Portas1:01:17

       You're like, great, but-

   27. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:18

       It doesn't matter.

   28. MPMary Portas1:01:19

       ... it doesn't excite me.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:20

       Yeah. Yeah.

   30. MPMary Portas1:01:20

       I don't know, there may be, that is, maybe that is a subliminal thing that we've both done. I, I hadn't thought about that, but I felt, I, I even had it like, my, my, my partner said to me last year, "Oh, you got that? Aren't you excited?" And I said, "No," and I, "Actually, I have to tell you, I don't get excited." (laughs)
10. 1:06:37 – 1:13:54

    Making businesses kinder

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:37

       (laughs) Your mission now in life seems to be focused a lot on, um, as you say, like, making businesses kinder, and it seems to be much more philanthropic than-

    2. MPMary Portas1:06:44

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:44

       ... it has, it's ever been before. Why? Why does that matter?

    4. MPMary Portas1:06:49

       I don't know. Just came to me. It's one of those things that came to me.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:52

       Certain point, certain time, or... (clears throat)

    6. MPMary Portas1:06:56

       Well, I, I, I, about five, 10, I can't remember years where they go, but about seven years ago, I looked at my business and thought... I never, no, it's longer than that, it was eight years ago, and I, my little baby son was born.And, um, this beautiful little man came into the world. And on, he, he was born on the Monday, and on the Saturday, my 18-year-old son was going out into the world to university. And I mean, obviously, this, you can imagine the emotions that are going through my body. There's this young man that's come into this world and this young man is going out into this world. And it was just visceral. And I, I, I c- I do cry when I'm feeling, you know, um, happy or sad or I listen to great music. I can. It, it c- clears me, especially if it's Nick Cave.

    7. NANarrator1:07:55

       (laughs) .

    8. MPMary Portas1:07:56

       And, um, I kept on crying and just, this moment, and I remember sitting with Milo who was going off to do, he's a very bright lad, he was going off to do, uh, philosophy and economics. And we were just chatting on the bed, and I remember clearing his bedroom and there's a little cricket bat in there. And I get emotional, 'cause I remember going off to find the cricket bat, and I remember also being really fucked off because all the sports shops were closed and they'd become JB Sports or GG Sports, you know, like, uh, "No, that's not a sports shop." I wanna go to a sports shop where someone says, "Oh, I'll give you the cricket bat," and knows about sport and... But I, I found one in, in, in Sherburn where a friend lived. I found this little... And I was looking at the cricket bat and thinking all the memories. You know, it was just lovely. And I'm packing his stuff and I'm just looking at his little hands sitting next to me on the bed, or big hands, and... Said, "You know, what do you think you'll probably do?" He goes, "Well, I don't know. Because I'm doing economics," he goes, "and I suppose I'll end up going into finance in the city." And I was like, I just remember this, "No!" Like this deep... And I remember sitting there and thinking, "That's not your frequency. That's not you. I mean, you're, you're, you're go-getting, you're... But you've grown up with me and you're gonna have to change you to go into that world." And then I looked at little Horatio, the baby, and thinking, "This is, this is what we all do. We all bloody have to change." And I thought, "Actually, I've, I've done this. I've, I've, I've changed." I became, you know, when I was on the board of Harvey Nichols, the businesswoman. When it was Mary, queen of shops, when it was Mary whatever on the TV, I was that. What the hell am I doing? Am I still doing this? And so I went on that journey then and I, that's when I decided to change the whole way that I ran the business. And I wrote Work Like a Woman on that, realizing that actually what I had suppressed was my deep sensitivity. And I called it my feminine instinct because I do believe the power of the feminine has been suppressed over millennia. There's no two ways about it. There's no two ways about it. We have created a male-dominated alpha energy in the world because we killed the, um, we, through, through the church, millions of women who were the sages, who were... We've suppressed femininity, and that power is the power that's gonna take us through into the next part of the world. And I started looking at this, and I started... I never saw myself as a feminist because I'd, you know, look at me, I looked at my life, "Why do I need to be that?" You know? And I started to go, "What are we doing with our children through work that we... This young man has to suppress his creativity, his sensitivity to go and be a bastard, basically, 'cause they get to the top." This was at the time of, you know, money, power, fame. Those were the ones, your Trumps, your Philip Greens, your loads of money, "Ignite them, they're brilliant, yeah, sir, this." And I started to go on that journey then. So that's exactly when it was, it was eight years ago, nearly nine. And I wrote the book, created a new culture in my business, opened up, started to talk about stuff that made me feel vulnerable, started to bring in this more compassionate way of working, and actually connect with what would've been seen as soft skills or HR department. Actually, I believed were gonna be the new power skills. Love, kindness. Actually, no, 'cause before, you know, 12 years ago, if someone wasn't working, I'd be like, "Oh, done, out." (laughs) You know, boom, onto the next one. "You're not good enough." How do you do that? What's going on in that person's life? I remember discovering one of our great creatives suffered with depression. Like, "Jesus." And, and he'd actually told someone else. "No wonder he's like that. I wouldn't have ever looked at that before. Okay, how do we work with this?" So I started on that journey then, and then I realized that, you know, over the years, that even the planet that we were killing was all part of this, the way that we've suppressed ourselves in search of more. We've just killed the planet, we've killed our wellbeing. And I just kept on going on the journey, and then I did a TED Talk on it, um, and they asked me to do a TED Talk and I thought, "What am I gonna talk on?" It just kept on coming up, this theme. So I talked on, well, I called it, We Need the Kindness Economy, we need an economy that isn't about growth, that isn't about money at any cost, that just doesn't measure linear. How do we create wellbeing? It's not that I'm anti-capitalism. I like money. How do we create a world so that... And I started to go on it, and then COVID hit, bam, and it was there, it kept me going, "This is what you're meant to be doing, Mary." And I'm looking at how to get back to make the same money as I did before, and all the while I'm chasing that, " (gasps) My God, my business is going there," and this voice is going, "Just there. It's where you're meant to be." And then one day I woke up and, and I rang my chief exec and I said, "I think this is where we need to go." And she's amazing. And I'm also thinking, "Well, she's 40-something with two kids and she's, you know, in this business with me." It's all right, me going, "This is amazing. Can we... But I think we should go this route." And we talked about it and talked about it and just, and the more I talked, the more it opened up, and my head of strategy and my answ... We were all like, "Yes."Actually, we need to be advising business on being better, better to people and better to the planet. And that's how it all started, and that's my journey now. That is it. Am I excited by it? No.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:31

       (laughs)

    10. MPMary Portas1:13:31

        But do I get up and think that it's deeply in there with me? And, and I just have to follow it now. And that's where I am. I hope that explained it.

Episode duration: 1:24:22