Matthew Hussey: The Secret To Building A Perfect Relationship | E142

1. 0:00 – 1:07

   Intro

   1. SBSteven Bartlett0:00

      Could you do me a quick favor if you're listening to this? Please hit the follow or subscribe button. It helps more than you know, and we invite subscribers in every month to watch the show in person.

   2. MHMatthew Hussey0:07

      Think of James Bond in real life, barely says anything, not a hint of humanity. This would be a terrible person to have a relationship with, and we've been taught that that's what women want.

   3. NANarrator0:19

      Number One YouTube channel in the world for dating... And New York Times best-selling author, Matthew Hussey!

   4. MHMatthew Hussey0:25

      Let's begin. We have to dispense with this idea that the one exists. Someone becomes the one by what we build with them. Any commitment long-term requires true effort. I had an issue with my head and my ear. It created the darkest moments of my entire life. I'd always found whatever was going on in my life, I could fix it. I couldn't fix it.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett0:50

      If I removed it, what would I remove from Matthew Hussey?

   6. MHMatthew Hussey0:54

      Imagine that you're not being judged on anything but how great a chef you are. We spend so much of our lives mourning our ingredients. Don't aspire to have the best ingredients. Aspire to be the best chef.

2. 1:07 – 9:55

   Your insecurities

   1. MHMatthew Hussey1:08

   2. SBSteven Bartlett1:08

      So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO, USA Edition. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music) Matthew, before we started recording, we were having a conversation about how the thing that gets you your glory, in your own words, can often be your downfall. And it, it always tends to be the case that the start of everyone's journey, especially when I sit here with people that I consider to be anomalies, like you, there tends to be some kind of anomalous, um, situation, or trauma, or exacerbating factor that they can point to and say, "That was probably the, the poke from life, or the thing that happened in my early years that resulted in me becoming the man I am today." Have you been able to identify exactly what that is in your own life?

   3. MHMatthew Hussey2:01

      I think so, to a large extent. I mean, we had a lot of financial insecurity growing up, and I never knew if everything was gonna be okay or not. For me, it was usually, it started out as a major bid for control. I wanted control over my situation, and, um, I, I remember, we were living in a, in a trailer at one point in my teenage years, and, you know, things were, you know, a certain way at home, and, you know, I, everyone loved each other, but it was, there was a lot of tension, as you can imagine. (laughs) And I, I remember going into school and saying, I'm, you know, "I'm gonna do this, and I'm gonna do that," and I would speak so forcefully and aggressively about where I was going, but it, and what was funny was, there was a, I remember a girl at school who had never noticed me before. Um, one of the popular girls, she said, "My mum wants me to marry you." And I said, I said, "Why?" She said, "'Cause she thinks you're gonna be rich." (laughs)

   4. SBSteven Bartlett3:14

      (laughs)

   5. MHMatthew Hussey3:14

      Which sounds, for me, eh, even though it's a fairly shallow thing to say, there was something about that that was interesting to me at the time, because I thought, "Oh my God, I, w- I've never been further from that reality. But from the way I'm talking, someone really believes me."

   6. SBSteven Bartlett3:31

      Mm.

   7. MHMatthew Hussey3:31

      "Someone really believes that I'm gonna be something or I'm gonna go somewhere." But at the time, I, it, what it really was, was I was just afraid and didn't want to be at the mercy of, of life. Didn't want to be at the mercy of whatever I had in my head as the, the bad out there that could come and get you if you didn't get control. And I, and I think most of my early adult life was defined by an obsessive need for control.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett4:05

      When people say that to me, I often presume that that meant something was out of control.

   9. MHMatthew Hussey4:11

      Well, I think for me as a kid, it was, because I felt like there were problems, when we had financial difficulties, I felt like there were problems I couldn't solve. I wasn't, they were too big. I wasn't able to do anything about them. So as I, as soon as I got the chance to go out there and do something, that, that became a kind of obsession. And I think, by the way, combining that with an insecurity, that I was just desperate to feel special in some way, desperate to feel important in some way. So you know, I defined normal as bad, whatever normal is, and I always felt like I had to do something different. I had to do something that was, you know, when I was a, when I was a, I'd, my dad, when I was a kid, he owned a nightclub. And I was a DJ in that nightclub from 14 years old. Um, he was a DJ when he first bought that nightclub. Uh, he went in there, well, actually the nightclub needed a DJ and they didn't have one, so he started DJing. That was how he became a DJ. (laughs) And um, and then through my teenage years I did that, but, but I didn't just DJ for fun. I mean, I was like, you know, while all my friends were going to parties and doing that kind of thing, I was always the one DJing the party. I was always the one working. I was always the one, when everyone was going home at 2:00 AM, I was going home at 2:00 AM to unload the car-

   10. SBSteven Bartlett5:41

       Mm-hmm.

   11. MHMatthew Hussey5:41

       ... and all of the equipment, and you know, it, but in my head, I think it was still coming from that place of, it was, it was ambition, but it was ambition I think driven by a kind of insecurity. Control, and I just wanted to feel special.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett5:57

       What was your relationship like with, with women in your early years? So like, when you're 16 odd years old and you start to get those first sort of...... real, we think they're real, but, uh, real heartbreaks, crushes, romances.

   13. MHMatthew Hussey6:11

       I was shy. I was, I was qui- it's not that I wasn't ... I was a likable teenager. I was, I was good with people to the extent that I was, I was kind, I wanted to be liked, I wanted to be close to people. I kinda got on with everyone at school. Like, there was no one, there was no group that I belonged to necessarily. I could hang with the guys who played football, I could hang with the guys who, you know, played Dungeons & Dragons. There was no one-

   14. SBSteven Bartlett6:42

       Mm-hmm.

   15. MHMatthew Hussey6:43

       ... there was no one that I didn't like or get on with, but I, when, if it came to someone I thought was attractive, then it was, I couldn't, I, I could not be my fun self, my best self, my confident self. Then I would kind of freeze up. And that was sort of, in a, in a way, I was, how old was I? I was about 11 or 12 when I first picked up How to Win Friends & Influence People-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett7:12

       Mm-hmm.

   17. MHMatthew Hussey7:12

       ... off my dad's bookshelf. My dad was always into self-development. So I picked up that book, and I was, I was really immediately taken by this idea that you could be better with people, and that there were skills you could learn that weren't necessarily the things we were being taught in school, that, that really could magnify your impact or the opportunities that you were able to have access to. And as a teenager, one of the ways that that sort of manifests itself is, "Oh, I might be able to talk to a girl I like." So that was one of my early kind of self-development journeys for myself, was just trying to get the courage to be able to talk to someone that I liked. Because I realized early on, "Oh, the, the girl that I'm dating right now chose me. I'm dating her because she happened to be the one who asked me out or, at school, whose friend came and asked me out on her behalf."

   18. SBSteven Bartlett8:15

       Mm-hmm.

   19. MHMatthew Hussey8:16

       "And that's why I'm dating this person right now. It's not because I went to choose who I liked. It's because someone decided they like me, and I said, 'Well, I'm not gonna have the confidence to go and talk to someone I really like.'"

   20. SBSteven Bartlett8:30

       Mm-hmm.

   21. MHMatthew Hussey8:30

       "So I guess I'll say yes."

   22. SBSteven Bartlett8:32

       Mm-hmm.

   23. MHMatthew Hussey8:32

       And that was sort of, I would say that defined my early, m- sort of teenage years with girls.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett8:38

       When you were in your late teenage years, what, what was your, "I wanna be this when I grow up"? What were you thinking that your career was going to be when you were, say, 18 years old or ... ?

   25. MHMatthew Hussey8:47

       At one point, I thought, "I'm gonna do this DJing thing."

   26. SBSteven Bartlett8:50

       Really?

   27. MHMatthew Hussey8:50

       "This is gonna be my life." And my dream was kind of I loved self-development. I really loved- I, I was 14 when I got taken to a Tony Robbins seminar-

   28. SBSteven Bartlett9:03

       Really?

   29. MHMatthew Hussey9:03

       ... in England at the Excel Center, and-

   30. SBSteven Bartlett9:07

       When- I was gonna say, when I think of the people in society generally that are seen as special and important and have the admiration of crowds, it's definitely the first two things that come to mind is, like, Tony Robbins and DJ. (laughs)
3. 9:55 – 22:32

   How do we know when our ego is driving?

   1. MHMatthew Hussey9:56

   2. SBSteven Bartlett9:56

      What are the symptoms of letting the ego drive for too long? (inhales)

   3. MHMatthew Hussey10:01

      I think, firstly, living in a constant state of never enough, living in a state of fear that you'll never be enough, and feeling, uh, ultimately disconnected.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett10:18

      From?

   5. MHMatthew Hussey10:21

      From, from the results of things, from how good things are already, and, and when you, when you achieve that thing, there is a ultimately, uh, a scary moment awaits because it's not, it's not just a numbness. There is a, there is a feeling of total disconnection. And when that happens, panic sets in, and it's a terrible feeling. It's a terrible feeling because it, then you really freak out. 'Cause as long as you're telling yourself, "Yeah, life is really hard now, but when that happens, it won't be so hard," as long as you're telling yourself that, what you have to hold onto is hope. And the hope will drive you even if you're unhappy today.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett11:09

      Mm-hmm.

   7. MHMatthew Hussey11:10

      But when you arrive, and it doesn't work, then hope goes away.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett11:15

      Hmm.

   9. MHMatthew Hussey11:16

      Matt Damon won the, the Oscar at 27 for Good Will Hunting, and Graham Norton, I always remember watching this interview where Graham Norton said to Matt Damon on his show, "You know, how does it feel? You- when you were 27, and you won an Oscar, something people work their whole lives to do, how did you feel?" He said, "I went home. My girlfriend went to bed or went to sleep." And Graham Norton joked, like, "So you didn't even get laid on Oscar night?" (laughs) He goes, "My girlfriend went to sleep, and I laid in bed, and I, I had this Oscar in my hand, and I just felt so sad because I imagined this, this version of me in kind of in a parallel universe that had worked his whole life to get this."And then realized 70 years later that this wasn't it, this wasn't the thing that worked. Um, and so I think that when- when that ego is driving, and that ego is never fed, it's always hungry, it's always wanting more, um, there is- there is the danger of just constant comparison, nothing ever being enough. And ultimately, any time you do get something you think might be enough, you feel completely and utterly disconnected from the result after the initial high of it, which is no different from a- a drug fix. Here's the hard part, 'cause we've heard this a thousand times. We all think that, "You know, I get it, I get it. When you get money, it's not gonna make you happy. When you get status, that's not gonna make you happy. When you become known, that's not gonna make you happy." We all- we all can regurgitate that, and then five minutes later, we're back to chasing it in our own lives.

   10. NANarrator13:07

       Mm-hmm.

   11. MHMatthew Hussey13:08

       And- and what's curious to me is, how do you take something that is a bumper sticker phrase-

   12. NANarrator13:18

       Hmm.

   13. MHMatthew Hussey13:18

       ... and turn it into a kind of meaningful, practical way of living and reconnecting so that you don't fall prey to not taking that advice, that we all can say it 'cause it sounds good?

   14. NANarrator13:33

       How- how do we do that?

   15. MHMatthew Hussey13:34

       (laughs) I-

   16. NANarrator13:37

       If you had to hazard a guess.

   17. MHMatthew Hussey13:39

       I'm, I'll tell you, uh, well, I'll- I'll talk about what I do. I'm- I firstly am very aware of the simple things that make me happy. And I- I have them written down. Uh, I was saying to you before we started, I'm a big note-taker. I'm someone who... I believe, Winston Churchill said, "People occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and carry on as if nothing happened." Well, I would say the reason I write so much when I feel something, if I feel something good, if I feel an emotion that I like, whether it's peace or happiness or I feel connected or I feel love for something or someone, I don't anymore just pick myself up and keep going when I stumble over an emotion like that. I- I pause life. And I go, "Okay, hold on. What's happening right now?"

   18. NANarrator14:47

       Hmm.

   19. MHMatthew Hussey14:47

       "Why am I feeling this?" I can just kind of treat emotions as an accident, or I can try to bottle them and figure out, "What's my formula for getting to this feeling of peace? I feel peaceful right now. I don't feel peaceful a lot."

   20. NANarrator15:05

       Hmm.

   21. MHMatthew Hussey15:06

       "This isn't an..." Like, my tendency is towards anxiety. I don't feel peace a lot. So when I feel peace, I wanna know how I got here. How did I stumble into this wonderful room? And I look at it, I go, "What's going on around me? What was I just thinking about that led to this thought, that led to the thought that... What- what was the chain of thoughts that got me here? Who am I with right now? What did I just do?" Because what I want is a formula for getting back there again an hour from now when life does its thing, 'cause it will. Five minutes later, life will do its thing. I'll read an email, or get a phone call, someone will say something that annoys me, and there it's- there, it's gone. I need a place where I can get back to that, and I need that formula. So I- I call these emotional buttons. I have a list of emotional buttons in my phone, on my computer, and I teach this on my retreat, but it started for m... I, this was selfishly just something I did for me, and to this day, is I'm always suspicious when someone teaches something but you never see them using that thing.

   22. NANarrator16:21

       Mm-hmm.

   23. MHMatthew Hussey16:22

       You never see them doing that thing. I, because, not because that makes them a hypocrite, it just, I feel like how important can it be if you don't do it?

   24. NANarrator16:30

       Mm-hmm.

   25. MHMatthew Hussey16:31

       I- i- this emotional buttons concept, I live this concept, because it, when I wake up in the morning, what I do is I immediately wake up and I look at these little formulas, and usually there's one thing that kind of triggers that formula. If I can... The reason I call them emotional buttons is because if there's- if there's one idea or thought or YouTube video or person even, a- an idea of a person, if there's one thing that can connect me to that formula, then I can get there instantly. So like, I don't know, um, Ju- Bo- Anthony Bourdain, who- who I really loved, he did jujitsu, and he was really, really into it. I do jujitsu. Most mornings when I wake up and do jujitsu, I don't wanna do it.

   26. NANarrator17:27

       Hmm.

   27. MHMatthew Hussey17:28

       I really don't. I'm so ha... Every time I come home from doing it, I'm like, "Oh, I'm so glad I went. That was so good. I'm so... Why don't I do this all the time?" I almost never feel like going, and therefore, I have emotional buttons that get me to- to want to go to jujitsu. I have these little triggers. One of them is a two-minute YouTube video where Anthony Bourdain is being asked about jujitsu.

   28. NANarrator17:56

       Ah, okay.

   29. MHMatthew Hussey17:57

       And he speaks about it, and the way he speaks about it, and because I feel connected to him as an individual, it makes me go, "Oh, I wanna go."

   30. NANarrator18:07

       Hmm.
4. 22:32 – 27:49

   What makes people feel disconnected

   1. MHMatthew Hussey22:32

   2. SBSteven Bartlett22:32

      When we think about the things that make people disconnected from their lives or causes them to live on the outside of the moment... 'Cause I was, as you were saying that, I was thinking about the listener, and I was thinking, there's gonna be so many people listening to this now that have, you know, veered off course of alignment. They've been dragged. They're, they're good... Uh, you know, there's something called the, I think it's called the e- excellence syndrome or something, or the curse of excellence...

   3. MHMatthew Hussey22:56

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett22:56

      ... where you're so good at something that people start paying you more and more to do it.

   5. MHMatthew Hussey23:00

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett23:00

      And you keep accepting the money. And what you're, what you're not ever asking yourself as you're being paid more and more to do this thing that you are good at or you were qualified in is, "Is it in alignment with myself?" You get 10 years down the line and people have these, like, mid-life crises or burnout because they're so far from themselves.

   7. MHMatthew Hussey23:16

      Mm-hmm.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett23:16

      But the temptation or the money or the, the applause was able to drag them away. Um, from your, from your personal experience, what was it that was dragging you out of alignment? We talked a little bit about e- ego there, but was there anything else that we haven't covered where you go, "That is the thing that keeps drifting me off course"? It's interesting 'cause I remember, uh, I was thinking as you were talking as well about the study about the impact money has on our motivation, and you can take a task as you- you know, you're, you're a kid and you liked doing personal development.

   9. MHMatthew Hussey23:43

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett23:43

       You can take a task that someone once loved doing, and when they introduce financial remuneration in the studies, people's motivation to do that exact same thing drops.

   11. MHMatthew Hussey23:54

       It's mad, isn't it?

   12. SBSteven Bartlett23:55

       Mad.

   13. MHMatthew Hussey23:56

       Yeah.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett23:56

       Makes no sense.

   15. MHMatthew Hussey23:57

       Well, there's a, um, there's a study that involves two rats. One of them is on a wheel that it controls. The-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett24:08

       Right.

   17. MHMatthew Hussey24:08

       ... the rat can run whenever it wants to run. There's, that's rat A. Rat B is on another wheel-... but Rat B's wheel is hooked up to Rat A's wheel.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett24:22

       (laughs)

   19. MHMatthew Hussey24:24

       So, Rat B doesn't get to decide. Rat A, whenever that rat runs, Rat B's wheel moves-

   20. SBSteven Bartlett24:33

       Mm-hmm.

   21. MHMatthew Hussey24:33

       ... and Rat B has to run.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett24:35

       Hmm.

   23. MHMatthew Hussey24:36

       They're both doing the exact same amount of exercise.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett24:39

       Hmm.

   25. MHMatthew Hussey24:41

       But the results of the experiment are that Rat A has all of the markers associated with the... All the positive markers associated with exercise. Rat B has all of the negative markers associated with stress.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett24:58

       Hmm.

   27. MHMatthew Hussey25:00

       They're both running the exact same amount. They're not do- one's not doing more exercise than the other, but one is choosing-

   28. SBSteven Bartlett25:06

       Hmm.

   29. MHMatthew Hussey25:08

       ... and the other one is having to. When we start to think that we're no longer choosing, when we're now having to do something, could be the exact same thing that we were doing before. We used to be Rat A. (laughs)

   30. SBSteven Bartlett25:25

       Hmm.
5. 27:49 – 39:44

   The positive impact of personal responsibility

   1. MHMatthew Hussey27:49

   2. SBSteven Bartlett27:49

      One of the three lines of like, I guess, business, but life in general, and also with relationships is... And I really wanted to ask you this 'cause it's something that I've seen in my DMs from people s- People sometimes message me about relationships, and one of the things that I find concerning when I meet someone in their personal development journey or in my DMs talking about their boyfriend or in other facets of business, is when I identify a lack of s- personal and self-responsibility. Whe- You meet certain people in life where they just can never seem to take responsibility. They never wanna, like, look in the mirror and ask themself the question, "What role have I played in this?" And I, I sat with Lewis in London on his podcast a- about a week ago or two weeks ago or something, and, um, one of the things that really astounded me about Lewis was when he said something about his ex-partner, even if it was... It seemed like a fault on the surface, he would say, "And that's on me-"

   3. MHMatthew Hussey28:37

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett28:37

      ... and then end the little, the, the paragraph with why he was responsible. Even if it was like, you know, "She wouldn't let me have females on my podcast," or something like that, then he'd say, "And that's on me." And I remember thinking, "Damn, this guy's gonna go far."

   5. MHMatthew Hussey28:52

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett28:52

      So what role have you seen that per- taking personal responsibility has on the, the positivity of your outcomes in dating, life, business, and everything in between?

   7. MHMatthew Hussey29:04

      Well, I think that, to start with, it, it makes you a much more likable person.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett29:09

      Amen.

   9. MHMatthew Hussey29:10

      Uh, the idea of extreme ownership is, uh, in some ways powerful, but we all know there are things that have happened in life that ha- are not our fault at all. There are things that we... Trauma we have experienced that it would be insulting to say that we have to take responsibility for these things. Uh, it would be sinister in some cases to suggest that. But if we can get into the habit of genuinely saying, you know, "How this, how this is affecting me is something I can take responsibility for, and if I do, it actually gives me a shot at feeling better about this thing, it actually gives me a chance of improving it..." Because if I, if I say I'm powerless, then I can't have it both ways. I can't say, "I'm powerless and none... I, I, I, I have no responsibility over I- how I feel," and then make it better. I have to say-"Okay, this thing is happening. It's not... That it's happening is not my fault. That someone is making my life really, really difficult right now with what they're doing, their behavior, their abuse, their whatever. That is not my fault. But I wanna get really curious about how I can handle this in a better way, in a more productive way." And the, one of the thing, our mutual friend, Lewis Howes, who you're talking about, one of the beautiful things about him, both in front of the camera and behind the camera, is that he is, Lewis is not a complainer. Lewis is someone who, he'll talk about the things that, that he's struggling with right now, or he'll talk about the things that he's trying to work on, but it's never from a place of being the victim. It's always from a place of, "What, what can I do?"

   10. SBSteven Bartlett31:19

       Mm-hmm.

   11. MHMatthew Hussey31:19

       Which I think is different. People, I think, uh, what, part of the problem for a lot of people is they conflate the idea of ownership with fault, and, and that takes us into some really dangerous territory. It, it's not your fault that something's happening, but you can take responsibility for how you, how you turn that into art. I, I thought about, um, I've thought about confidence a lot in my career and the injustices of confidence, right? Because the, the, we are not distributed things equally in life. We are not distributed things equally at birth. We're not distributed opportunities equally. You know, it's super easy for anyone who's objectively decent looking to talk about h- you know, how easy it is to go and approach someone or do this or do that. And you're like, "You cannot even imagine-"

   12. SBSteven Bartlett32:20

       (laughs)

   13. MHMatthew Hussey32:21

       ... "what it is for someone who has been rejected their entire lives." They are starting from a completely different position than you in their confidence. It's so easy for someone to say, "You just need to be confident." Okay, start from where I'm starting from, and then tell me that.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett32:37

       (laughs)

   15. MHMatthew Hussey32:37

       You know? With the, confidence is a really, it could, again, it can be a very insulting concept, but I do believe that, that there's a, I, there's a TV show called Chopped, and I, I probably, I'm not familiar with the show, but so I'm probably gonna get wrong the concept. But in my head, the concept of this show is very, very interesting from the point of view of confidence. I think the chefs get given different ingredients. So you, you're, it's like just lucky dip. What do you get? What's interesting is if you get a basket of ingredients and I get a basket of ingredients, we're both getting judged on what we make of those ingredients. In that format, it's what are you able to do with what you have, and what am I able to do with what I have? And I think there's something really fascinating about that, because we spend so much of our lives mourning our ingredients, do, really being upset or frustrated about what the ingredients are that we were given. Imagine that you're not being judged on anything but how great a chef you are, 'cause that show isn't about ingredients. It's about chefs. Well, imagine life isn't about ingredients. It's about chefs. Don't aspire to have the best ingredients. Aspire to be the best chef, and the best chef is gonna be the one who can be the most creative with the ingredients that they have. I, I'm fascinated by that, because if I apply that to my own life, I just go, "Whatever thing that just happened I wished didn't happen, whatever thing that's happened to me this year that is so painful, so devastating, so whatever, whatever that thing is, it just became a new ingredient in my life." I can either judge myself on my ingredients, which if I do that, I'm always at the mercy of the next thing that happens in my life. Something cataclysmic could happen in my life and, and I lose everything, and then what? I'm gonna judge myself and my life on my ingredients. It, to me, it's always how great of a chef are you. Ingredients are luck of the draw. Uh, uh, being a chef is something we can continue to get better at our entire lives, and it's actually the antidote to whatever happens. If you're a great chef, you can cook something out of whatever you have.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett35:21

       It's such a re- such a powerful analogy, and it really, really did like, yeah, I, I sort of do what you probably do when you hear an analogy. You kind of test it from multiple scenarios, and it really stands up. And I was thinking then again about when we look into that basket of the ingredients we're handed, if we, if we believe that the ingredients we were handed are inadequate or inferior to the, the chef stood next to us, we're probably also gonna prepare the meal with a certain level of pessimism that's gonna result in a worse dish anyway. And the, the, the agony also of looking over at someone else's basket of ingredients and going, "Fucking hell, they got the rib eye. Look at me." And that, you know, 'cause we, we both know the negative power of comparison and how it can drive down performance, belief, confidence, and all those things, but it's a beautiful, beautiful analogy.

   17. MHMatthew Hussey36:00

       And sometimes-

   18. SBSteven Bartlett36:02

       Love.

   19. MHMatthew Hussey36:02

       ... im- imagine if you took pride in being able to still make, even if you knew like, "This ingredient is, this one sucks."

   20. SBSteven Bartlett36:09

       Mm-hmm.

   21. MHMatthew Hussey36:10

       Like, "There's no getting around it."

   22. SBSteven Bartlett36:11

       Mm-hmm.

   23. MHMatthew Hussey36:11

       "These ingredients I have right now suck." But you took pride in, "Look what I can make-"

   24. SBSteven Bartlett36:19

       Out of how-

   25. MHMatthew Hussey36:20

       "... out of this."

   26. SBSteven Bartlett36:21

       Yeah.

   27. MHMatthew Hussey36:21

       I get you made something amazing with your truffle salt and your-

   28. SBSteven Bartlett36:24

       Yeah.

   29. MHMatthew Hussey36:25

       ... you know, your caviar and your uni. Like-

   30. SBSteven Bartlett36:28

       Mm-hmm.
6. 39:44 – 50:58

   The value of lessons learnt from previous trauma

   1. MHMatthew Hussey39:44

   2. SBSteven Bartlett39:44

      I'd be f- I'd honestly terrified. Do you know why? Because I'd lose the lessons as well. And then I think, I literally was thinking of this soul coming down, getting my credit card, and going and buying a Lamborghini.

   3. MHMatthew Hussey39:59

      (laughs)

   4. SBSteven Bartlett39:59

      (laughs) Like, I literally was like, "He will go back to the club." (laughs) "He'll buy five pop."

   5. MHMatthew Hussey40:04

      No, no, no.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett40:04

      (laughs)

   7. MHMatthew Hussey40:05

      You start, you start with a 60-year-old level of wisdom. Let's say that.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett40:08

      Okay, so I keep the wisdom, but I get-

   9. MHMatthew Hussey40:09

      You keep the wisdom.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett40:10

       ... everything. Fantastic.

   11. MHMatthew Hussey40:10

       It's so funny. I s- I was having this conversation with, with, uh, my fiance the other day, and we were like, "We would not go back to our 20s for any amount of money in the world." There is nothing...

   12. SBSteven Bartlett40:21

       (sighs)

   13. MHMatthew Hussey40:21

       I would not take, I would not want those extra years back if it meant that I didn't have the lessons that I have today that have brought me more peace-

   14. SBSteven Bartlett40:31

       Isn't that bizarre?

   15. MHMatthew Hussey40:31

       ... than I had then.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett40:33

       Yeah, yeah, Mo Gawdat sat here, and he said he, when, when he wa- he was the head of Google X, he said that when they did the eraser test, which was asking people if you could erase the most traumatic experience of your life, these are really horrific things-

   17. MHMatthew Hussey40:44

       Hmm.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett40:45

       ... w- but in erasing it, you'd erase the lessons that came with it, 99% of people said no. And it's the same thing. It's like, I wouldn't even go back to being younger if it meant that I'd lose the last 10 years of lessons, as you said.

   19. MHMatthew Hussey40:56

       Yeah, because you, w- you, you erase that trauma, and, and you want to because, my God, who would wanna go through that? But you're playing roulette with your wisdom.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett41:05

       Yeah.

   21. MHMatthew Hussey41:06

       Who wants to take that gamble?

   22. SBSteven Bartlett41:07

       And some trauma, not all of it, gotta be clear there, some trauma is a consequence of a lesson we had to learn, and so if you were... so life will probably have to teach you that lesson again. In my, my case, whether it's heartbreak, or whatever it is, or failure, it was a lesson I had to learn about the nature of the world and people. And if you remove it, then I'm gonna have to learn it again. That means more pain, so-

   23. MHMatthew Hussey41:28

       And, and that, that trauma that you went through, even if it wasn't a result of something that you needed to learn, may have been the catalyst for you to learn something that is going to prove essential for something you've yet to experience.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett41:45

       Amen.

   25. MHMatthew Hussey41:46

       There are things, for me, that have prepared me for the rest of my life in some way, that I, I, I, I had an issue with my, um, well, I have an issue with my head and my ear. That bothered me. To say it bothered me is a s- i- is ridiculous. It, it created the darkest moments of my entire life.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett42:18

       Not tinnitus, is it?

   27. MHMatthew Hussey42:19

       Well, I have tinnitus.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett42:20

       Right.

   29. MHMatthew Hussey42:21

       It's, but it's not tinnitus alone.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett42:23

       Okay.
7. 50:58 – 55:30

   How to control emotions to bring yourself to a place of peace

   1. SBSteven Bartlett50:58

      Very few people will be able to relate to the chronic pain, um, experience that you've had. But people will be able to relate to how their out-of-control emotions have an impact on their broader immune system. So when we get stressed, we get ill. Like, for me, in my life, when I was running my, my company, I, I would get ill-

   2. MHMatthew Hussey51:15

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett51:16

      ... so rarely that when I did, I would know the email or the situation or the cash flow issue that had caused it in the preceding 48 hours. I'd go, "Ah, fuck. Yeah."

   4. MHMatthew Hussey51:25

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett51:25

      You know, and then I'd get a cold, right? So it happened, like, twice a year, and it would always be, typically it would always be when we had a cash flow problem. Um, is there anything you've implemented in your life to get, to get control of your emotional sort of stress response that life, you know, will, will, um, cause because of whatever's... because life happens? Whe- whether it's meditation or something else, just to bring yourself back down to a place of peace?

   6. MHMatthew Hussey51:48

      One of the things that's important to me is to recognize that the actually what I need to be happy is not, it's not actually that impressive.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett52:02

      What is it?

   8. MHMatthew Hussey52:02

      You know, if I get to... I have, um, a certain s- I call them my criteria. My criteria are the things that need to happen every day for me to feel like I'm living a good life, and therefore my head hits the pillow and I feel like today mattered, today was a good day. And I've distilled that down to, uh, a few key words. Create, move, learn, connect, appreciate, and contribute.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett52:45

      Interesting.

   10. MHMatthew Hussey52:45

       And I really thought about those as, like, my, my personal formula for happiness. Uh, the reason that those words sound quite vague is because I actually have m- many, many different ways of achieving any of them. Right now, I'm writing a book. It just so happens that every day I write is contributing to the goal of producing a book. But even if it wasn't, it still ticks my create box.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett53:14

       Mm-hmm.

   12. MHMatthew Hussey53:14

       Every day when I sit and write for 45 minutes or an hour, I tick that create box in my criteria. Now, it doesn't matter whether I'm writing a book or making a video or doing something else that's creative, I just have to tick that box. I don't, by the way, have to tick it for six hours a day. Uh, there's diminishing returns.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett53:34

       Mm-hmm.

   14. MHMatthew Hussey53:35

       If I do it for one or two hours a day, I tick that box. Movement or move, I typically, I do jujitsu or I do, uh, boxing or I'm in the gym. But I could even... If, if you and I went for a hike tomorrow, I'd meet that movement box with that. There's multiple ways of achieving our criteria, but it matters to me immensely, it's everything that I do meet them each day.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett54:05

       Mm-hmm.

   16. MHMatthew Hussey54:06

       And an unhappy life for me is one where I don't... where too many days in a row I didn't hit those criteria. It has nothing to do with how big my book deal is, or how many people watched a video today, or, uh, you know, it... All those external things that are stressing me out, because in that moment when I'm stressed I've convinced myself that that's what really matters. What helps me is stepping out of that game altogether and stripping my life back down to the absolute basics. If today I call my mom or my brother and have a, a, a nice conversation to connect-If I go spend an hour doing Brazilian jiu-jitsu, if I, uh, write 500 words, if I learn something new from a book, if I help someone, that's my contribute. If I help someone, I've done what I need to do to live a good life. All the rest... And none of those things are dependent on how well everything is, is going in my life. And that, that to me is really liberating 'cause it means all the stress that I'm creating is, is self-imposed.

8. 55:30 – 1:05:43

   Learning to show vulnerabilities

   1. SBSteven Bartlett55:30

      One of those boxes was connect.

   2. MHMatthew Hussey55:32

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett55:32

      And you have connected with someone-

   4. MHMatthew Hussey55:37

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett55:38

      ... who's actually sat in the room. I am... You know, you historically have not posted a lot on social media about your relationship situations. You've been, as you said in your own words, on that wonderful proposal announcement post you did-

   6. MHMatthew Hussey55:50

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett55:50

      ... you've been quite a private person. One of the lines in that, that, um, post you did when you announced that you and Audrey had become engaged was, "And finally, thank you for teaching me how to love in a way that I was too scared to before."

   8. MHMatthew Hussey56:04

      Hmm.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett56:05

      I found that quite intriguing.

   10. MHMatthew Hussey56:09

       I, I think like a lot of men, I struggled with genuine vulnerability. W- we all have our fake version of vulnerability. The, you know-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett56:26

       Yeah. (laughs)

   12. MHMatthew Hussey56:26

       ... it's the version of going into- for a job interview and saying, "I, my... Well, what's your biggest weakness?" "I, I work too hard."

   13. SBSteven Bartlett56:34

       Yeah. (laughs)

   14. MHMatthew Hussey56:34

       Everyone's got their PR version of vulnerability. It's vulnerability if, on some level, it just makes me feel like I'm expressing a part of myself that you might not like, or you, you know, I can't control your reaction to this. And I have been in relationships in the past where I had revealed an insecurity.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett56:54

       Like?

   16. MHMatthew Hussey56:56

       I was jealous of somebody, you know. I'd felt threatened by somebody else. And it was fed back to me that that was unattractive. And in my mind, that st- that kinda stuck. I think there is a, especially in a lot of men, there is a kind of, there's a kind of double thing going on in their head where they go, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know that's really important, but I'm not saying that 'cause if I say that, she's not gonna think I'm cool anymore.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett57:30

       Hmm.

   18. MHMatthew Hussey57:31

       I've spent a lot of time curating this sexy, alpha, cool image that has attracted this person. You really think I'm gonna jeopardize that by showing an actual weakness?" Something that... And I'm, again, I'm not talking about the weakness of I cry in movies. That's not vulnerability.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett57:51

       (laughs)

   20. MHMatthew Hussey57:51

       That, you know that's gonna be cute. You know that she's gonna see that and go, "Oh my God, he's sensitive too." That's not vulnerability. Real vulnerability is, this is something that I never really wanted anyone to see, and, and I'm taking a risk that when you see this, you're gonna still think that I'm what you want.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett58:24

       Are you, have you got something in mind when you say that? Like, w- you had a conversation with Audrey and you think, "Nah, this is one of the things where I wouldn't normally have had the safety."

   22. MHMatthew Hussey58:31

       I think that, for me, times when I was anxious, I would normally bottle those up and keep them to myself. I wouldn't express what I was anxious about or what was doing that to me. Times if we were arguing where I wouldn't really be honest about why I was upset-

   23. SBSteven Bartlett58:53

       Hmm.

   24. MHMatthew Hussey58:54

       ... I'd give the kind of strong version of why I was upset.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett58:59

       Hmm.

   26. MHMatthew Hussey58:59

       The, the PR version.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett59:00

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   28. MHMatthew Hussey59:01

       But I wouldn't give the real reason I was upset that went to the core of me not feeling enough-

   29. SBSteven Bartlett59:06

       Hmm.

   30. MHMatthew Hussey59:06

       ... of me not feeling good enough, of me feeling scared, of me feeling like something was being triggered that I didn't know how to handle. Sometimes even when I was in pain, and there would be other situations from my past where I would kind of not wanna reveal how much pain I was in with my head, because I was worried that someone might determine this is not... I can't... U- uh, I don't wanna deal with this. So I'd kinda keep it to myself. For a lot of guys, their experience of growing up wasn't one where being vulnerable would've been rewarded. And then you add onto that the additional layer of, as a guy, we've been culturally led to believe that being the caricatured alpha male, that's what women want. And some of our experiences have confirmed that. We lost out to the guy in high school who was much meaner than us and who we knew was not a very nice person, but he had his pick. And that, that's quite scarring for a guy-
9. 1:05:43 – 1:12:39

   Why do partners try to change us?

   1. MHMatthew Hussey1:05:43

   2. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:43

      I've been in relationships where I felt like my partner was trying to fix me.

   3. MHMatthew Hussey1:05:48

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:48

      And it really is a shitty feeling for men. I think it really emasculates us as well, right? We wanna be, I guess, perfect. We wanna just make our, our woman happy. And I've been in relationships where I felt like she was trying to fix me.

   5. MHMatthew Hussey1:06:01

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:01

      And it fucking sucked.

   7. MHMatthew Hussey1:06:03

      That's a rough situation to be in, for sure.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:05

      It's really... And I had, I had a conversation with her about it, where I was like, "By the way, when you, when you do that thing where you try and corrects- correct me constantly, what you're actually also doing as a consequence is saying that I'm not good enough."

   9. MHMatthew Hussey1:06:17

      Mm.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:17

       I remember having that conversation with her. Fortunately, she was someone that could really listen. But women, I think women and men... I only can speak from the perspective of women 'cause I've only ever been on the receiving end of it from women.

   11. MHMatthew Hussey1:06:28

       Mm-hmm.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:28

       But, um, what do women need to know about that, of this? 'Cause a, a lot of them do it. They, they meet someone. He might be d- doing this. He might be down the pub too much. He might be, have this bad habit, this thing. What do they need to know about this desire they have sometimes to try and fix us? Does it work? Where does it lead?

   13. MHMatthew Hussey1:06:45

       Well, I think people have to suspect themselves in the beginning if they're choosing people that they're not aligned with in the first place. Th- th- that, I think, is a, the, the fixing thing is often a big symptom of the fact that-... instead of choosing a partner, you chose a project of some kind.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:08

       Hmm.

   15. MHMatthew Hussey1:07:08

       Right? And now, I'm unhappy because I needed these things from the beginning, but this person isn't doing them. But I knew that in the beginning. It's not like I suddenly found out that he enjoys going to the pub. Our first four dates were in a pub.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:24

       (laughs) yeah.

   17. MHMatthew Hussey1:07:25

       You know? The guy likes a drink. I, I knew that in the beginning.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:29

       And does that mean there's a certain level of acceptance that's required when you meet someone?

   19. MHMatthew Hussey1:07:34

       Well, I think that we have to, we have to, um, to a certain extent say, "Am- am I at peace with who this person is today? Because if I'm not, why would I get into a relationship with them? I'm literally getting into a relationship on a wager that they're gonna become what I want." What are the chances of that?

   20. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:00

       It goes back to the point we were saying about this inauthentic initial connection when you, you kind of, you don't really show who you are, um, and you might also have a presumption that the bits you don't like about them, you're not gonna mention it just yet, or you're, you're gonna kinda let maybe n- twelve months in, you're gonna start mentioning that that's really a big problem to you, but you connected inauthentically from the start. So, yeah, I just, I just, I'm just totally thinking about my own experience of that. And the other part of it was hugely my fault in the sense that I would compromise. So say that I loved watching the football and she didn't want me to watch the football or whatever, sure, fucking turn the football off for the first couple of months just to keep happy families.

   21. MHMatthew Hussey1:08:39

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:39

       And then this resentment starts building-

   23. MHMatthew Hussey1:08:41

       Yeah.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:41

       ... in you where you go, "I fucking miss the football, and you're the reason I can't watch it." You know what I mean?

   25. MHMatthew Hussey1:08:45

       Yeah.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:45

       Again, that's like I was inauthentic. I wasn't honest.

   27. MHMatthew Hussey1:08:47

       And we all, in some way, are prone to that. We, we are trying to, we're trying to oil the joints-

   28. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:54

       Yeah.

   29. MHMatthew Hussey1:08:54

       ... of, of early dating so that everything moves in this nice, smooth, romantic direction. And, and we kind of, if we're not careful, we do end up playing a part that we think will just create the most energy.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:11

       Hm.
10. 1:12:39 – 1:18:29

    Are you scared of being bored in your relationship?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:39

       What's your longest relationship? Ever. Proper one.

    2. MHMatthew Hussey1:12:46

       Two years? Two and a half years?

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:48

       Mine's roughly the same.

    4. MHMatthew Hussey1:12:50

       Yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:52

       You don't know what it's like to go 50 years in a relationship, right? Are you not scared on any level? Do you not have a fear of boredom?

    6. MHMatthew Hussey1:13:02

       I have humility about...... long-term relationships.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:06

       You've just got a fiance as well. That's a, as you wrote on that caption, a forever commitment.

    8. MHMatthew Hussey1:13:10

       Right. I have massive humility about commitments like that, in the sense that, like I said to you earlier in this conversation, I don't pretend to know about things I don't know.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:24

       But do you personally have a fear of boredom in your relationship? 'Cause I, I don't ... she's gonna listen to this. I, I wonder. I think, "Well, I've n- I've only ever done two or three years, so what, how do you get 30 years in and still have the spice and the, you know, I love her?" You know?

    10. MHMatthew Hussey1:13:39

        Well, I think that, firstly, it's, you, you have to look at ... I almost take it out of the context of relationships and say, there's lots of areas of life where y- you could say, "How do you not drink or not get high and not eventually find life boring where you need to do that?" But then you also know if you're drinking or getting high, there's a cost to that, right? It's a, there's an actual cost. It, it makes you feel like crap afterwards. There's a hangover. And, and so you, there's a price to pay for that. I don't think of it just in terms of, will I get bored? I, I, o- I'm always thinking in terms of, okay, but what's the other option, and has the other option ever worked for me? Now, the answer to, has the other option ever worked for me, is no. I- I got to a point in my life where I felt like I have empirically proven that this thing doesn't work.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:49

        (laughs)

    12. MHMatthew Hussey1:14:49

        Casual relationships don't make me, they, they don't make me happy. It, there's a, you know, it literally is just a feeling followed by hangover, and that was, became reliable in my life, where I just went, "Oh, this doesn't work." For me to continue down that path would be literally that definition of insanity. I'm, what, I'm gonna be, I suddenly am gonna find the right set of casual flings that's gonna make me happy? It just, it's nonsense. I got to a point in my life where I, I saw ... Two things happened. I met someone who had everything that I could ever want in someone that you would build with. Not to mention the obvious stuff, the chemistry, the, you know, the fun we have together, and all, all of those things were all there. I'm not one of those people who, you know, when people talk about, like, a relationship as if chemistry's overrated, you just need someone who's a great teammate or whatever. I, I don't think chemistry is overrated. I think an absence of chemistry can be dire and will hurt you. But those things were there, but what was also there is I thought, "This is someone that I can really build with, and I'm in a place in my life where I want to build," because there's so much more that can come from building something here. There's so much more that can come from the beauty of what gets built than just ... Like, for me, dating was like resetting every time. It was like, go, build a, lay a couple of bricks down, and then move on again, and reset-

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:42

        Too important.

    14. MHMatthew Hussey1:16:42

        ... reset, reset.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:43

        It's like renting. (laughs)

    16. MHMatthew Hussey1:16:44

        It, yeah, it was like-

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:45

        How much do

    18. NANarrator1:16:45

        (laughs)

    19. MHMatthew Hussey1:16:45

        ... rent's been? Yeah, it was like there's nothing. Yeah, every time you leave, I'm, I'm back to, to the same place. Now, there's nothing wrong. I, I have no judgment on any of that. If someone's enjoying being single, if someone wants to do that, if it makes them happy, I have no judgment anywhere. I'm not ... I don't wanna be an evangelist for a long-term relationship. I can only speak to what feels good to me in my life and what feels like ... I wanna be careful. Not just what feels good, but what I actually believe is a, is a path to a more meaningful life, to a happier life. And I truly believe that is the path that myself and Audrey are on, is she could be single, and she could, like, she's a beautiful person. Everyone loves being around her. Everyone loves her company. She could be out there having a ton of fun. She could be out there having all of this excitement. She could ... But she also is someone who value, she is very, very big on valuing the things that lead to long-term happiness, not short-term pleasure. And I always wanna be in a relationship that is, you know, has pleasure in it. I don't, you know, I don't wanna ever settle for a relationship where you say, "Well, I'll sacrifice that because I have all of this other stuff." But, you know, I, I do believe that it's, it takes, I think that takes effort. I don't, I'm suspicious of anyone who says, "When it's right, it's easy." I, I'm suspicious of that, because to me, anything, anything long-term, any commitment long-term requires true effort.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:28

        My last

11. 1:18:29 – 1:29:59

    Do we have to be in the right place personally for a successful relationship?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:29

       question, then. So on that, in that example of you and Audrey, I'm trying to get, so I'll tell you the, the, the basis behind my question. I'm trying to understand if we have to be in the right pla ... And this goes back to what, my point about s- s- sort of personal responsibility. If we have to be right when we meet this person-

    2. MHMatthew Hussey1:18:45

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:46

       ... or it's just a case. 'Cause they'll be a lot of people listening to this going, "Okay, I've just not met the right one. I've not met my Audrey, so I'm just gonna keep waiting."

    4. MHMatthew Hussey1:18:52

       But what, yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:52

       But what I see a lot is, um, I met my girlfriend, actually, three years ago. We dated for a year and broke up. I was totally not the right person, well, for all the reasons I said, immature, not willing to communicate. If she said something and it was an issue, I thought, "This isn't perfect, so it's not worth it."Um, I had all of those faults in me. We took a year out, I did a lot of work, came back, and I genuinely will marry this person. We genuinely have gone through those things. So I think timing is an issue, but largely because sometimes, like, we're, we're, we haven't done the work.

    6. MHMatthew Hussey1:19:21

       Mm-hmm.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:21

       We've gone through life bla- I've just, I'm too picky, I've not found the right one, all of this bullshit.

    8. MHMatthew Hussey1:19:26

       Mm-hmm.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:27

       What would you say, uh, what would you say to that? About the self-work we need to do, so that when you do meet your Audrey, we're also ready to receive them?

    10. MHMatthew Hussey1:19:36

        Well, I, I think we have to dispense with this idea that the one exists. I think that's really, really important. I don't think the one exists any more than the one true career exists. Uh, I think that we, someone becomes the one by what we build with them. Now they have to start with the right raw materials, as do we. You can't just, not anyone can be the person we do that with. But the person who becomes the one is the person that, I mean it sounds so funny, but is the person that becomes the one.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:14

        (laughs) Mm-hmm.

    12. MHMatthew Hussey1:20:14

        You know what I mean?

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:16

        100%.

    14. MHMatthew Hussey1:20:16

        I- if it, if you go the distance with someone, they were the one. If you don't go the distance with someone, then they weren't the one. They weren't, th- th- this idea that there's one person for you in the world that you're supposed to meet is silly to me. Uh, uh, because it, it gets into all these ideas of love at first sight and, you know, I just, uh, we came to each other ready-made to be each other's person. I think that's an insult to the amount of work that a long-term relationship actually takes. And, and I think that we get so terrified of making the wrong decisions in life that we avoid the decisions all together, and that's a form of commitment phobia, is avoiding the decision because you're so terrified that you're gonna make the wrong choice in a decision that feels so high-stakes. I, I never, um, I realized I never, I always used to kind of, when I was younger, friends of mine that would get tattoos, I'd be like, "You're insane."

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:29

        Hmm.

    16. MHMatthew Hussey1:21:30

        "You're crazy. Why would you put something on your arm that you can never take off again?" That, i- every fiber of me said, "That's a terrible idea." I had never enjoyed anything for my whole life. I'd never, I, I can't point to a piece of clothing I've always liked.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:53

        (laughs)

    18. MHMatthew Hussey1:21:55

        So why would I think, why would I have faith that I'm gonna tattoo something on my arm and I'm still gonna like it 20 years from now?

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:02

        (laughs)

    20. MHMatthew Hussey1:22:02

        That freaked me out. And what I came to realize, not with everyone who gets tattoos, there are plenty of foolish tattoos out there. But what I did realize is that actually a lot of the people that I knew who got tattoos just had a different relationship with the idea of permanence. W- I, I knew someone with a lot of tattoos and she said, "You know, there's just, the meaning changes over time." She was a client of mine who said, "I, over time, it, they come to mean different things and they kind of evolve with me." And so in a way, though to you it may look like the same tattoo, to me it's, it, it's always evolving, in its meaning and, and what it represents.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:48

        That's actually what someone said to me, because I, I was telling them I was gonna ask, one of my team in the room, uh, that I was gonna ask, ask you this question and he's been in a marriage for some time and he has kids and he said, "Well, you have different relationships with them over time, you f-" and the adage of you fall in love with them over and over again in different ways-

    22. MHMatthew Hussey1:23:02

        Right.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:02

        ... is the-

    24. MHMatthew Hussey1:23:03

        It, it, it, it, I couldn't agree more. A- and I can't speak as somebody who has done it already.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:10

        Hmm.

    26. MHMatthew Hussey1:23:11

        I can only speak as someone who I've realized that my relationship with the idea of permanence has not been a very productive one.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:28

        Has it been an, it, for, for me it was definitely an insecure one, and a scar- a fearful one.

    28. MHMatthew Hussey1:23:33

        Well I think that, you, you know, there's a, Oliver Burkeman who I th- you may have met, I think you maybe interviewed Oliver Burkeman. He-

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:39

        I did, yeah. He's-

    30. MHMatthew Hussey1:23:40

        Yeah. He, hi- hi- his book, for anyone who's struggling with, with being ready for commitment, is a really powerful book. You could read that book as a dating book. Uh, because he, he talks about the, the issue of deciding, deciding to do something and then the thing that we decide on, we resolve to make that as good as we can make it. Because by definition, you can't experience all of life. You can't experience every man in the world. You can't experience every woman in the world. You can't, like, it, you can't. So when we're trying to, what he describes it as is almost a fear of our own mortality or a lack of acceptance of our own mortality. He talks about it in a time management sense, that the fact that we're trying to cram so many things into our day is really a representation of our lack of acknowledgement that we're gonna die.

Episode duration: 1:36:41