Meta’s VP on Leadership, Resilience, and Overcoming Challenges While Battling Cancer!

1. 0:00 – 1:45

   Intro

   1. NMNicola Mendelsohn0:00

      Zuck was 11. He's our youngest. H- h- he asked me if I w-, you know, if I was gonna die. "Finish me off." As Facebook's Vice President for Europe, the Middle East, and Africa, Nicola is one of the most powerful women working in tech.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:18

      Facebook is this huge company. The prospect of leading so many regions, is there any element of, "What the fuck am I doing here?"

   3. NMNicola Mendelsohn0:24

      You don't climb Everest. You get to base camp one, and that's your thing. Certainly in chaotic moments, it's like, what are the things you can control in order to either get out of the chaos or to hit the North Star?

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:35

      So this Meta shift, people are understandably scared. Do you have any concerns that we're taking away what it is to be a human?

   5. NMNicola Mendelsohn0:42

      I think it's an important question. I think- (music stops)

   6. SBSteven Bartlett0:46

      Three years into your career at Facebook, and then you get some awful news.

   7. NMNicola Mendelsohn0:50

      (melancholy music plays) I got the diagnosis that I had follicular lymphoma, which is an incurable blood cancer. So we gathered the kids on the Sunday morning. Um, I couldn't... I just couldn't get the words out. When I told my story on, on World Cancer Day, so many people sharing having a similar disease, but were scared to show that because it was a sign of weakness. I mean, it sounds ridiculous, but there are still companies where that sort of behavior i- is happening. We often don't put the discipline into our personal lives that we do in our work lives, and often our work lives are dictated by others. These things aren't mutually exclusive.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:30

      So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

2. 1:45 – 14:52

   What made you the person you are today?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett1:46

      Nicola, you've had, um, a- an extremely extraordinary career. I've, I've followed you for many, many years, for many, many years, I think about six or seven years throughout my career. Um, and I've watched... And I've also gone back and looked at the previous 21-odd years you spent in advertising and agencies, because my background is in advertising and agencies. My first question is, when you think about why you, why you were able to lead that career, what are the circumstances of your early years that went into shaping who you became and the success you then saw for the next 30, 40 years of your career?

   2. NMNicola Mendelsohn2:28

      Well, first, can I just say I am so excited to be here in your dining room-

   3. SBSteven Bartlett2:32

      (laughs)

   4. NMNicola Mendelsohn2:32

      ... uh, and having, um, having this conversation with you and, and fear of this turning into a great big love-in, I've been following you too (laughs) .

   5. SBSteven Bartlett2:40

      Oh, God (laughs) .

   6. NMNicola Mendelsohn2:40

      So, um, yeah, I couldn't be more thrilled to have this conversation. That's a great big question to, um, to start with. I think from a very early age, I was always very curious. I was always that kid that was putting their hand up and just going, "Well, hang on. What about... Can I ask a question?" And to be honest, it didn't play so well in school. Um, the school that I was at at the time really just wanted, like, a cookie-cutter, that you came in, you learnt by rote, you passed your exams. And I, I wanted always to just push the question a little bit, understand a little bit more. And I think that kind of desire for knowledge, that curiosity, wanting to know what might happen, has probably been a part of shaping who I am.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett3:28

      Do you know where that came from, that curiosity? Did it come from somewhere? Did you have brothers and sisters?

   8. NMNicola Mendelsohn3:33

      Yeah. I, I'm... So I grew up in Manchester. I have, um, a fantastic family, uh, a family of two brothers, parents, all connected, grandparents in and out of the house every single day. And my mom worked, my grandma worked, and so my North Star at the time was just kind of a very busy household, people coming and going, but people always there for one another, people supporting, and a belief, I think, that anything was possible. My parents were caterers, and they used to do functions for, um, extraordinary people, celebrities, prime ministers. And so I grew up just seeing that even extraordinary people are just people. I was a grafter. I was working as a waitress, uh, for them. And so I saw that, and I saw people. And I think if you take the fear away out of people, however successful they are, I think it allows you to think yourself about what you can learn from, from them and then what you might be able to apply to yourself.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett4:34

      Were you a confident child?

   10. NMNicola Mendelsohn4:35

       Yes, I was. Yes (laughs) .

   11. SBSteven Bartlett4:37

       What evidence do you have of that?

   12. NMNicola Mendelsohn4:39

       Um, if you look back on my school reports, talks too much. I think if you're not confident, you probably don't talk too much. Asks too many questions. Um, I wasn't, I wasn't fearful. I wasn't afraid.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett4:52

       It's funny because, as you say, when you're younger, those things are often looked down upon, even the phrasing of that, "Too many questions."

   14. NMNicola Mendelsohn4:58

       Yeah. And especially for a woman or a girl at the time. I remember, um... Yeah, there was a really particular incident when I was, um, 15. It was the parents' evening where you... Just before... As it was O levels, that was the last year of O levels, GCSEs. And y- you go in the, um, dining room, and I was with both my parents, from teacher to teacher. And this was a really important moment for me as a child, where the Latin teacher literally started to shout at my parents and told them that if I didn't change my personality, that I was never gonna get on in life. Can you imagine being told that at 15? And i- it hadn't been such a good parents' evening, I'll be honest, but I saw something in my dad that day that really has always stuck with me, because he turned round, and he turned to her, and he said, "I wanna be really clear." He said, "I think it'll be my daughter's personality that gets her on in life, not what she does with Latin." And, uh, with that, he was like, "We're off!" (laughs) And so I went with my parents, and we left. But I just remember thinking, "He's got my back. He sees something in me that she doesn't." And it was a real seminal moment for me as a, as a child growing up.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett6:09

       What was that Latin teacher referring to when she said, when she was talking negatively about your personality? What was it in your personality she didn't like?

   16. NMNicola Mendelsohn6:16

       She didn't like the questioning, she didn't like me under, y- really trying to get to grips, not just learning the, the language by rote, but actually understanding much more about what the Romans were doing and what, you know, what we learnt as a result, but that wasn't her job. Her job was to teach us the language, not to teach us more on the history and that side of it. And I was really interested in that (laughs) . And yeah, she didn't like that.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett6:38

       At that age, what, if I'd asked you what you wanted to be when you grew up, what would you have said to me?

   18. NMNicola Mendelsohn6:42

       That time, I would've probably said, um, an actress. Y- so, yeah, I was, I was always in the plays, I was doing performances. And I was told at school that I wasn't very good. I wasn't clever, I wasn't gonna pass my exams. With hindsight, I think there was probably some antisemitism that I experienced at school, um, and a few particular incidents that stick out, but until I thought my life was gonna be on the stage.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett7:15

       A few particular incidents that stick out?

   20. NMNicola Mendelsohn7:17

       Yeah, I had, um... I'm religious and I observed the Sabbath and that meant, in the winter months, that I would go home early from school. And we had a couple of teachers that would always insist on starting the new topics on a Friday afternoon. And when my parents... And they could've started the topics on any, you know, who starts new topics on a Friday after-

   21. SBSteven Bartlett7:38

       Mm-hmm.

   22. NMNicola Mendelsohn7:38

       That's not a good thing for anybody, you know? It's the end of the week, people are tired. And my parents went in, um, and, and to ask about it, and they were told very clearly that if my parents insisted on taking me out, what, you know, that was our problem, not theirs. And, um, yeah, I, uh, I... That was one thing that I had that's stuck in my mind. And another thing I had, I had an English teacher who, um, used to mark me down. And my, my marks were really low. I was like two outta 10, three outta 10. And I was in a good school, and these were not my marks. And my parents, again, my parents y- there's ki- a kind of a thing here that they, they were backing me. They actually took my English book to, um, one of my brother's teachers and said, "W- what do you think of this work?" And they said, "We don't understand the marks. These are the marks of a, of a child that, you know, this is an A student." But my confidence was so smashed by these teachers telling me I wasn't good, I wasn't smart, that I, you know, didn't think that I would maybe even do A-levels, nevermind going to university at that time, which was kind of the normal for that school. And as it turned out, I, I left school at that school at 16 and went on to college. And I got an A in my, uh, O-level in English, and actually decided to read English for A, did A-levels, got an A, and actually went to university and read English and, you know, did an English degree. I actually went back to my school. And I think about this now and I can't believe I did it. When I got my A and my place at university, I, I went back, um, to the school, to that English teacher. And so I rocked up and I said to her, "I've come to see you." And she was like, as you can imagine, quite shocked. And she goes, "Why are you here?" I said, "I've come to tell you that you could've destroyed my life. And the power that you wielded on others really could destroy." And, and I said, "You know, you really came close with that with me in taking away a dream of mine that might never have been realized," 'cause I always loved reading, I'm passionate about books. And I just needed to tell her that, and I felt better for telling her that. Never saw her again.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett9:51

       What did she say?

   24. NMNicola Mendelsohn9:52

       She just looked at me, shocked. Uh, and I, I, you know, I think back now with, with the, uh, the benefit of age, it w- it was quite a shocking thing to go and tell somebody that, you know, their own biases and prejudices and the power that they wield could destroy a life. Um, you know, in comparison with the best of teachers that it can inspire and lift up and, and to make you something, make you believe in yourself more. That wasn't some of the experiences I had from some of my teachers.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett10:21

       More broadly, what does that say about the, the education system? Because I, I mean, I feel a similar way. I was, always did bad in school. Um, there was two lessons that I would never miss, which was business and psychology. But other than that, I would not attend. So, and it wasn't, I wasn't a rude kid. You know, I went back and I've spoken at the school multiple times now, and ev- when I go there they say, "You were a really nice guy, but a useless student." And because of that, the sort of implicit message of, of being a useless student, um, and the idea that the A grade people are gonna be rich and successful and happy, and then everyone else, you're gonna have to settle for something else, you're not gonna go far. For a kid, that's such an easy narrative to believe. It's almost am- amazing when you hear that someone went through that and they didn't believe that story at such an impressionable age. Is there something that we can do to remove, I don't know, grades altogether? Or to stop people like you, who went on to have these phenomenal careers, potentially falling through the net because of one bad teacher or one bad grade, or believing a narrative about themselves based on any of the above?

   26. NMNicola Mendelsohn11:22

       So I think it, uh, uh, that's a big question. And I think there is, there's a lot in there to unpack, but I think having people believe in you at a young age l- is really important. And not everyone is as fortunate to have a family that is as loving and as supportive as, as mine is. And so, people look to people like teachers. Kids look to teachers to be those people for them. And on the whole, I think teachers do a phenomenal job. I mean, a really, truly extraordinary job. But some kids slip through. And I think it's on all of us to think about what more we can do to be able to help kids to really realize, uh, their full potential. Because you're right. How many more are out there that could be doing the most extraordinary things if someone just says to them, "I believe in you. I got you."

   27. SBSteven Bartlett12:08

       Mm-hmm.

   28. NMNicola Mendelsohn12:08

       "I think you could do this"?

   29. SBSteven Bartlett12:09

       At what point then d- did you choose advertising?

   30. NMNicola Mendelsohn12:14

       This one's really simple. So I went through university doing, um, I actually did English and theater studies. So I was acting and actually had a place at drama school, um, at, at Central School of Speech and Drama. It's a great school. But I, you know, I shared that I'm religious and I observed the Sabbath. And I quickly realized that, you know, a life on the stage is not, is not very, you know, compatible with, you know, wanting to observe the Sabbath. So I also saw that friends of mine who were, um, acting were pretty miserable because there's so much luck involved. You know, they were trying to get the Equity cards, they were working in remote parts of the UK trying to, you know, get a break. And I just didn't want to roll the dice and have so much of my life dependent on luck, and they were great actors and great actresses. And at the time, I had a friend who was a year older than me, a guy called Neil Marcus, who had got a job in advertising in London, and I was, "Wow, I've never heard of such a job." I didn't know anybody growing up in Manchester that worked in the creative industries. It wasn't a known thing that... And it wasn't a thing in, in my school from a careers advice that they gave you that there were such jobs, and yet I'd always loved the creative industries. I loved theater, I'd loved, you know, drama, I love fashion, I love film. I loved all these things. So when I heard what he did and that, you know, you could get paid to do such a thing, I was like, "That's the thing I wanna do." So that's how I, uh, got e- embarked on it. And then I did my research, which back in the, um, the early '90s comprised of going to a library and getting hold of, you know, the, the magazines, the trade magazines and, and working my way through them to understand the great agencies. And so I applied, uh, as a graduate trainee to get on a scheme and I got into, uh, Bottle Bogle Hegarty, which was the one I wanted to go to.
3. 14:52 – 22:30

   What did you learn from working in the marketing industry?

   1. NMNicola Mendelsohn14:52

   2. SBSteven Bartlett14:52

      You spent that, the next sort of 20 years from that first sort of grad... Was it a grad internship?

   3. NMNicola Mendelsohn14:56

      Yeah. No, yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett14:58

      Spent the next 20 years working in advertising. Um, i- interesting industry to work in. You s- you stayed in there probably a lot longer than, than I think I could've (laughs) 'cause, you know, there's lots, especially when you're working agency side, there's a lot to deal with. You rose within that industry very quickly as well. But when you think about that period of your career, what did that really teach you in terms of yourself, leadership skills and everything in between? What was the...

   5. NMNicola Mendelsohn15:24

      So many things. So it definitely taught me leadership skills and, you know, you start early on working for others, but then you, as you rise through the ranks, then people work for you. And I was always very keen to learn from others that were doing it. And I, you know, I spent the first 12 years in advertising working for Bottle Bogle and Hegarty. So I learnt from some of the very best craftspeople, uh, in the industry, both from the business side and actually the creative side as well. I remember when I, when I left there and I was taking on my first really senior position at Gray, that I actually went to see someone called, um, Stevie Spring, who was a woman I hugely admire and now is a dear friend, to ask her what I should do, what advice did she have. And she said to me, um, "Nicola you really need to think about every aspect of when you're talking to people. Not just what you're saying, but how you're saying it and how you're using your body language and, and other things as well 'cause people are gonna judge you. They're gonna pick up on everything that you say." And I thought that w- that was good advice that nobody, um, had ever shared before. It was also the first sort of time that I started to get 360 feedback on... and, and so that I could learn about how others perceive me. 'Cause how you think of yourself in your head is very different to how other people can perhaps think about you. So it was actually making sure that I was developing the muscle of leadership as well as I was going through, uh, the different roles that I have. So yeah, it taught, taught me a huge amount.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett16:43

      What were some of your weaknesses in that early phase of your career that you, that you really had to work hard to overcome? You talked a bit about body language, and I'm not sure if that was a weakness. And then, um, was there anything that you, you, you initially struggled with being in that agency, um, sphere working for someone else?

   7. NMNicola Mendelsohn16:58

      Yeah. I think, um, not trusting my instincts, trying sometimes to be something I wasn't. You know, BBH in the '90s was super cool. You know, everybody was wearing 501 jeans and white T-shirts and honestly, that wasn't a really good look on me (laughs) .

   8. SBSteven Bartlett17:12

      Mm-hmm.

   9. NMNicola Mendelsohn17:13

      And so trying to emulate what others were doing rather than just trusting me and actually having the confidence. Now, this will sound a weird one because I already told you that I thought I was a confident person. But having... And I, and I've really realized that this is something that women do more, which is having an exhaustive conversation in your head before you get your point out and then the conversation's moved on and you've missed it or someone else has made the point. And not realizing that I had a seat at the table 'cause people were interested in what I had to say and not to be so fearful not to get those points out. So that is definitely a, a skill I honed as we, as I kind of went through my career.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett17:50

       Why do you think that, that, that issue is more, um, more prevalent in women?

   11. NMNicola Mendelsohn17:56

       I think it's a fear of getting it wrong, being seen as being stupid. Um, yeah, I think the, I think those are things that, you know, we're challenged on, um, from a young age. And it's something that, you know, if, if I could go back, I would definitely speak up more, I would share my voice more, I would...... you know, bring my opinions to the table. I think there's, I think women do struggle with that. And certainly talking with women about this issue, I, you know, especially if I'm talking to younger women, they're nodding away and it's like, just put that imposter syndrome away. It's really not a good thing, doesn't help any of us.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett18:31

       You, I- in that period, if I'm correct, you, you kind of went through three different agencies?

   13. NMNicola Mendelsohn18:35

       Yeah.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett18:36

       Started at that first one that I cannot pronounce, went to Grey, which I can pronounce, and then Karmarama, is it?

   15. NMNicola Mendelsohn18:41

       Yeah, Karmarama.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett18:42

       (laughs) Yeah, um, was the third one. Why did you move every time? What was the reason for you to, to move on?

   17. NMNicola Mendelsohn18:49

       The first time I moved was because I'd been there 12 years, I looked up above me and all the people that had been my bosses 12 years earlier were still all my bosses and were always gonna be my bosses. So I kind of reached a point where I really didn't think I was learning as much as, as I could and should, and actually started to think about maybe there's a life outside advertising. And then actually, it was somebody else that came to me, a guy called Gary Lace came and said, "Look, you're at the coolest agency, uh, y- on the planet. I'm just coming to Grey as a change management kind of mission. I want you to be on that mission with me." And he goes, "I know people will sort of laugh because you're at the coolest and this one isn't, but wouldn't it be amazing if we could do that?" And I loved that vision because I thought, "Yeah, why would I just swap one great agency for another great agency? Where's the learning?" Um, in fact, curiosity thing again, right? And, and so I went and did that. And honestly, that was one of my steepest learning curves as from a leadership perspective, um, and from a business perspective, how we changed that agency around in the five years, um, that I was there. And then it was another kind of moment of serendipity where, um, I'd been at Grey for five years, it had been independent, and then it sold to WPP, so the change was kind of coming. And I got a, a call from a guy called Ben Bilbil, who was one of the founders of Karmarama, and said, "Would you, could I have a cup of coffee?" And I said, "Yeah, definitely." And I always, whenever people asked me that, I would always say yes. I was like, "You never know, interesting things always happen when you, when you meet interesting people. Ben's interesting." So I go and meet Ben, and I was totally hoodwinked because the other founders of the agency were there, Sid and Dave. I was like, "Okay, what's this?" And they said, "Oh, we're here to see if you wanna be our, our fourth partner." I was like, "Oh, I didn't see that one coming (laughs) at all." And that had very much been a, a boutique business, a lifestyle business, and they wanted to significantly grow it. And so I, I joined that agency, and th- the day I joined, there were 12 people sat round the table, and the day I left, there were 250, in five years.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett20:53

       Didn't it sell to Es- Essentia?

   19. NMNicola Mendelsohn20:55

       Yeah, it did. Um, a couple of years ago, it did.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett20:59

       So that first, that first, uh, was it eight and a half years at that agency that I can't pronounce? Tell me the name, I'm gonna learn it.

   21. NMNicola Mendelsohn21:03

       You can just say BBH.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett21:04

       BBH, okay.

   23. NMNicola Mendelsohn21:05

       Bogle Bogle Hegarty. 12 years, I was 12 years there-

   24. SBSteven Bartlett21:07

       BBH. 12 years-

   25. NMNicola Mendelsohn21:07

       Which is a long time in ad- in ad land.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett21:09

       Which is a long time in anything.

   27. NMNicola Mendelsohn21:11

       I guess.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett21:12

       A lot of people, especially, I don't know if it's m- I don't have the data, but these days, I think amongst our generation, the thought of doing 12 years at one place is, is quite inconceivable. Why did you do 12 years there? And would it not have made more sense to, because there's often this narrative that if you swing more from job to job, you can get higher faster, would it have not made more sense to just, you know, do a couple of years then move on?

   29. NMNicola Mendelsohn21:34

       So, there was a lot going on in my life in that 12 years. So I got married, I had three of our four children while I was there. And also, I absolutely loved the agency and the job that I did. So I started off as an account, as an account man, but actually I moved into new business, and new business, it just gives me a thrill. It always has because you're meeting new businesses, you're learning about those businesses, you're meeting new people, there's the pitch. I love the thrill of the pitch, the chase, all, and all of that. And so it constantly felt like it, it was a new job. And especially because I had three maternity leaves during that period as well, I grew as a person each time I had my babies. Um, people often don't think that, but you learn new things about yourself. And so I came back each time refreshed and excited. But as I said, by the end, after the, uh, after the twelfth year, it was like, "No, this was time."

   30. SBSteven Bartlett22:29

       Mm-hmm.
4. 22:30 – 34:27

   Joining Facebook & leading the EMEA market

   1. NMNicola Mendelsohn22:30

   2. SBSteven Bartlett22:30

      And Karmarama, the agency where you were the fourth partner and the owner, um, at some point in that journey, you get a call from s- you get headhunted by Meta.

   3. NMNicola Mendelsohn22:41

      Well, Facebook-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett22:41

      At the time Facebook, at the time. (laughs)

   5. NMNicola Mendelsohn22:42

      Yeah, at the time Facebook. So it's 2013 and, you know, the agency's going brilliantly, and I am also the president of the Institute of Practitioners in Advertising, it's the trade body for the ad industry, and I'm the first woman in its almost 100-year history to take on that role. And my whole mission was about making the UK the most digital-minded, digital-first, um, country. Because I could see that the opportunities there for the industry were gonna be huge if we could capitalize on what was happening in Silicon Valley. And so yes, I did get a, a call. Uh, Carolyn Everson came, and it was another cup of coffee, she actually said, "Would you like breakfast?" So I go for breakfast, and we'd met through an awards thing a, a year or so earlier, and it's very American, I'll never forget, we're in the Ivy, I'm surrounded by literally everybody I know, and she literally comes straight out, I've got my water, I'm drinking my water and she goes, "Nicola, I'm here to see if you're interested in heading up EMEA for Facebook." And I literally splurted water out. (laughs)

   6. SBSteven Bartlett23:44

      (laughs)

   7. NMNicola Mendelsohn23:44

      And I said, "Oh, no, no, I, oh, I don't think so. Why? What are you talking about?" And she goes, "Oh," uh, and she said, "Oh, um, well, people have suggested your name and I've been looking for a while." And I said, "Well, I've got Karmarama and it's going great." And I said, "I'll tell you what, let me think about it." So I went home that night and I spoke to my husband John, and he goes, "Are you nuts?" (laughs) He said, and it, put it in context, it was just after Facebook had floated, hadn't been going so well.I was a huge fan of Facebook, though. But I felt a deep connection to all the people that we'd hired at Kamarama, you know, 250 people that relied on us for their mortgages and were part of the vision and the dream there. But I gave it the overnight, and I woke up in the morning, and I thought, "Actually, this one's now got my, you know, I'm excited about this. I can start to imagine what that could do." Because I'd always loved tech, I'd always been interested in it, and this would give me a ringside view. So I said, "All right, I'm interested." And then fast-forward, we had a, a whole, uh, recruitment process and ultimately got the job.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett24:55

      I've got to be honest, that doesn't sound... That, um, breakfast at The Ivy doesn't seem, sound like the most (laughs) well-thought-through pitch.

   9. NMNicola Mendelsohn25:01

      (laughs)

   10. SBSteven Bartlett25:04

       (laughs)

   11. NMNicola Mendelsohn25:04

       Yeah. That, that's how it was.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett25:05

       Schmooze, you should maybe schmooze, schmooze you a little bit first and...

   13. NMNicola Mendelsohn25:08

       No, it was direct. It was-

   14. SBSteven Bartlett25:10

       Really?

   15. NMNicola Mendelsohn25:10

       ... direct and all-in. Yeah, but I quite liked that as well, I have to say.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett25:13

       And, and that, that prospect of becoming the head of EMEA, is, that's terrifying. That, that would be, uh, terrifying for anyone, the prospect. Facebook is this huge company. It's hugely socially significant. It's now a public company. The prospective of leading so many regions, terrifying. Uh, you know, most people would, would be overcome with imposter syndrome, probably.

   17. NMNicola Mendelsohn25:36

       I d- it's not how I saw it. I just saw it as, um, a huge opportunity. I loved the product. I mean, so it started with something that I absolutely passionately believed in. I was a huge fan of Mark Zuckerberg and Sheryl Sandberg, um, before I had the job. And so to have the privilege of to work for two of the finest leaders that have ever worked in business, ever, um, and to work so closely, was, was just an extraordinary opportunity. And, you know, it, it was so early on. I mean, I remember, you know, we, we hadn't opened a lot of the offices back then. London only had a couple of hundred people working there.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett26:14

       Mm-hmm.

   19. NMNicola Mendelsohn26:14

       And so it was really early, it was really scrappy, and I'm good in that. I'm, I'm good in kind of bringing people together, setting out what the objectives are, working towards what the vision should be, and I knew the industry, okay? This was my industry. These were all the things that I loved, working with some of the best and the most smartest of people.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett26:33

       But when you start that job, it's a public company, it's, as I said, hugely socially significant, is there any element of, "What the fuck am I doing here?"

   21. NMNicola Mendelsohn26:41

       Oh, k- yeah, course, completely. And, you know, joining, uh, you know, I thought I knew digital before I, I started, and then I really got to understand. In those first few months, and I think this is true for anybody that, that comes and joins Meta, you literally feel like you're drinking from the fire hose. You have got information coming at you left, right, and center. You've got to make decisions quick, quick, quick on the decisions. And I found that quite exhilarating. And I'm a great writer. I write things down, I'm learning, I'm processing in terms of that's how I retain knowledge, and it just felt energizing. I hadn't felt like that since some of the very early days in, in my career, and I still feel like that today, I have to be honest.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett27:22

       When you think about taking on a new role, um, in your career, is there some kind of framework or principles or characteristics you're looking for when you're making that decision? We, I get asked this a lot when I meet people that listen to this podcast, or when they DM about, they're at that kinda crossroads where they're trying to weigh up one of two options. What advice would you give?

   23. NMNicola Mendelsohn27:41

       So I definitely always research the business, which is obviously what you would do, but then I'm, I'm very into also understanding it better by having lot, uh, lots of cups of coffee with people that are in and around the business, and it's a, it's a two-way thing, especially at a senior level, where they're interviewing me, but I'm also interviewing them, and I've got my list of questions, and, you know, really wanting to understand what, what's motivating, what they're looking for, is it what I'm looking for as well, and, and squaring that, and then writing lists, you know, the pros and the cons of why this may or, or may not be a good thing, and picking up also the challenges that people have as well so that you're very clear going in, "What are the things that need to be fixed? What are the things that shouldn't be fixed that are working really well, and where some of the other opportunities are?" And then I often go back after a few months into them and, and just r- reflect on what I've written, uh, and see what I've done as a result.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett28:36

       And how much does the, the family play a role in that decision? You spoke about going and speaking to John about it.

   25. NMNicola Mendelsohn28:43

       Huge. I was... Huge. I mean, up until this point, I'd largely been UK-based. I did Europe as well, but I'd largely been UK-based. I didn't travel a lot. John traveled more, and, you know, we've got four kids. And so it was very clear to me that if I was gonna take on this role, that it was gonna mean a lot of travel, and how did I feel? I'd also been working four days a week up until this point, and 'cause that was something I had done when Gabby, my, our eldest, was one. I just didn't feel that I was getting, um, being good at anything. And so that was something that I'd taken on. So it was gonna be a really big change, and John and I really sat and talked about it, and he went, "Just go for it." He said, "This oppor-" He said, "I'll, I'll root myself more at home so that you can go and do those things," and we made a kind of thing in, uh, between ourselves that I'd always make sure wherever I was in the world, I'd come home for the weekend, and that we'd always have the Sabbath together, we'd always be there as a family together, but in the week, I would travel. So yeah, it was, um, it wasn't just my decision, it was a, it was a joint decision. I, I couldn't have done it unless I'd had had his, his full support.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett29:49

       On that point of working four days a week when Gabby was, was born, um, what was behind that decision? Give me some color there.

   27. NMNicola Mendelsohn29:55

       I felt that I wasn't being a good wife, I didn't feel I was being a good mom, a good kind of family member, good friend. Just work was all-consuming, and I needed just a bit more time to be able to do the things that I also, that were also important in my life. You get one go at this thing. And so I worked out that actually I probably just needed the Friday. If I had a Friday that I could do the things that I wanted to do, and remember, this is pre-tech, all this stuff. We didn't have tech at all our fingertips and everything. And so I, I went to talk to my bosses, and they were actually incredibly open about it. They cut my salary by 20%, of course, but they got me for-I did the same job, in essence, but did it in four days through the discipline that I applied. Um, and so that's, that's where it came from. And honestly, it was one of the very best things that I ever did. It did mean that I took some changes in my career though. I think back now, and I didn't push myself to do a CEO job when I was in, was, was in agency life, because I felt that I probably needed to be there five days in order to do that. But I have no regrets about that, because the experiences that I did as a result of having that time, I think, you know, fulfilled me and also make- made me who I am.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett31:06

       There's a huge importance for... And, you know, when I, when you said that, I was just thinking about how, how self-aware it is to really tune into what matters for you. 'Cause it's so easy and tempting sometimes to just, um, try and take on more and try and get the highest sounding status job you possibly can, to be a CEO. Even if it's... And I- I- I think about this a lot in my career, that sometimes I just maybe need to pause and think about what... How I feel and what really, really matters to me, as opposed to just being dragged by what I think I'm supposed to do, right?

   29. NMNicola Mendelsohn31:38

       Yeah. I think that's, I think that's true for a lot of people. I... And I think it's... We often don't put the discipline into our personal lives that we do in our work lives. And often, our work lives are dictated by others. "Here's the path that you'll climb up. Uh, off you go." And actually just stopping and going, "What matters to me in my whole life?" And, uh, I was always really clear. My North Star was always my family. I alwa- Jon and I always wanted to have a big family, four kids. That was really important to, to be around for them as well. I love the fact that my k- You know, our kids are older now and they choose to hang with us. It's, it's a real source of pride and joy for us both. So, being as intentional on the personal side as, as on the work side, these things aren't mutually exclusive. You might have to trade things at different times. But if ultimately the person feels more fulfilled and happy, then surely that's a good thing, right?

   30. SBSteven Bartlett32:30

       It's very rare for people to turn down a promotion, which is an interesting concept. I actually remember the day where I offered our marketing director the chance of... Oh, no, our head of marketing the chance to be the marketing director of the whole company. And I remember them saying, "No, no thanks." And, uh, you know, as a CEO, you take that one of two ways. You think, you know, "Is this... Is..." And this is just being completely honest. "Is this not an ambitious person? Do they not like it here?" D- You know. But when I, when I spoke to this individual to find out the reasoning behind their decision, I just had the most amount of respect for them. I respected them so much more because of that self-awareness to know that they, in their personal life, they wanted something a little bit different. And also, they, they, the person communicated to me that he didn't feel like he was quite there yet. And it was just... I will never forget that day, because, uh, it only ha- ever happened once, and we employed, you know, more than a thousand people over the last 10 years, so... Um, it's just... And I don't think it's a conversation people have enough, which is like, "You don't have to accept the next rung on the ladder just because it's the next rung on the ladder."
5. 34:27 – 50:47

   Your journey with cancer

   1. SBSteven Bartlett34:28

   2. NMNicola Mendelsohn34:28

      Yeah. Um, so I am 45 then, in November 2016, and living this amazing life, right? I'm flying around, the kids are thriving, family's great, and I'm busy and feeling great. And I, I had, um, had this little lump in my, in my groin, tiny, like the size of a pea. And honestly wouldn't have thought anything of it, but I have a, a really good girlfriend who is, um, who's a doctor, and I just mentioned it to her literally in passing. Like, I wouldn't have gone and seen a doctor for it. And she goes, "Probably nothing. If it's still there, let me know in a few weeks." And it, uh, it was, so I went to see her, and she, she put her hands on me and, and I saw in her eyes, um, that she, that she wasn't happy, uh, about it. And I said, "What is it?" She goes, "I- I don't know, but you need to see someone. I don't know what it is." And she sent me, um, sent me to a doctor who was, turned out to be the wrong doctor, but it wa- he was a gynecologist. And he said, um, he said, "You're fine." He examined me. He goes... But I literally had my coat on. He goes, "But do you know what? While you're here," he said, "we should just do a CT scan." I thought, "Okay." I was by myself, 'cause I really didn't think it was anything. So I went and had a C- CT scan, which is quite an intrusive thing if you're not kind of expecting it. Invasive. And, and then I went home. Didn't think anything of it. It was a Friday. And got home, and put my phone away, 'cause I was busy doing other things. And then I remember I picked up my phone and there were so many missed calls from my friend the doctor and also from this 0207 number, um, which I didn't recognize. And, um, I can still remember the feeling of just feeling physically sick. And I went up to see Jon, and I said to Jon, "I think this is going to be very bad news. I'm gonna phone Lisa while, she's my GP friend, while you're with me." And she just said, "Have you spoken to the doctor?" I said, "No." She said, "I'm coming over."Honestly, she lives around the corner. It was the longest five minutes of anyone getting to me. And she told me, um, that the scan had shown that I had, um, tumors everywhere. All over my chest, all, underarms, everywhere and they didn't know what it was. And that, um, that began the process over, uh, the worst weekend of our lives. Um, Googling everything, trying to work it out because you can't see, can't see doctors at the weekend. Nobody's around, had to wait till Monday morning. Had a whole fiasco of going to meet a surgeon, trying to take, uh, one of the tumors out, but they wouldn't take it out because they didn't know which was the one to take out and it was just very frustrating and being a person that's very used to... Like you, you're like knowing what you want to do, getting in control, making things happen, like, you just couldn't do anything. We had to wait till Monday morning to go for a PET scan to understand it and then over... It was just all, just so much information and also, we didn't want the children to know because we didn't know what it was and so it was just John and I, sort of isolated, working through all of this. But within a few days, it was, um, I got the diagnosis that I had, uh, something called follicular lymphoma, which is an incurable blood cancer. Um, most people that have this, it can take two to three years to get diagnosed. I got diagnosed in five days and it was, it was a shock. It was... Yeah, I'm t- I'm thinking about it now and I still can't believe what I'm telling you, that this is something that happened to me, um, and is happening to me. Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett38:23

      How does, how does, how does the, the world you look out upon look differently through that period of your life, that weekend? Because you, you've gone from flying around the world, you know, of thinking about a particular professional challenge and life is normal, and then, boom.

   4. NMNicola Mendelsohn38:40

      I did a lot of crying. I cried so much. I mean, it was a physical thing. I just remember it being very physical, the feeling. I couldn't sleep. I actually lost half a stone in one weekend. Um, and then I just remember thinking on that Monday morning that that's not me. I mean, I catastrophized everything because of course when you hear the word cancer, tumors, cancer, we knew it was bad before we knew what it actually was. I went to all the worst places in my mind as to what was gonna happen. Uh, fast-forward, I was gonna have chemo, then it wasn't gonna work, then I was gonna die, then, you know, the children would be left alone. It was just horrific. Absolutely horrific. The, the games your mind can play on you or that you allow to play on yourself, and I remember thinking on that Monday morning, I actually did my hair, did my makeup and said, "I'm gonna face this in the way that I face everything. I'm gonna take it one day at a time and, you know, whatever the cards I'm dealt with, I'm gonna make sure I live the most with what I have and I'm never ever going to allow myself to go back to that weekend that I just had which was just horrific." And I didn't. And so I took it on, you know, understood what I had and then had to start to process that and then start to tell people because you're right. On that Monday, I was supposed to be flying to China and so I, I couldn't do that. And so I had to tell my bosses that I wasn't gonna be able to. I had to tell them, you know, the reason why or what I knew at that point and, you know, I will always be unbelievably grateful to Sheryl Sandberg for literally just saying, "We're here for you. Whatever you need, um, we've got your back." And that was, you know, for your boss to tell you that is, you know, the most important thing in the world. I'll never forget that.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett40:35

      That conversation with your kids.

   6. NMNicola Mendelsohn40:38

      Worst conversation of our lives. Um, we gathered, think it was about, it was a week later and it was deliberately a week later because Danny, our, our number two was just 18 that weekend and he'd had a big party on the Saturday night so we didn't want it to spoil it for him and... So we gathered the kids on the Sunday morning, um, all sat round the table to try and tell them and I actually c- I couldn't, I just couldn't get the words out. It was horrific. You know, in a, in a moment, you change your kids. You take, you know, they've got this life and in that moment, you bring a different dimension into their lives. John had to, um, he had to tell them I couldn't get the words out. Zach was 11 at the time. He's our youngest and, you know, he just, he, he asked me if I, you know, if I was gonna die. Finish me off. Finish me off.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett41:48

      How, how does, how does someone respond to that? It take, it took me back to a conversation I had with my mum when my mum found a lump in her breast when I was younger and, and it was the first thing I thought. I must've been about 11. Must've been about 11 when I got that phone call. How do- how does, how do, uh, how does a parent deal with that conversation with an 11-year-old when they ask that question?

   8. NMNicola Mendelsohn42:13

      There's no right or wrong, is there, uh, on these things. What, what I, what I said to him was, "I hope not." (laughs) "Gonna try my best." And what I promised them that day was that they could always ask me anything. There was never a question that they couldn't ask and that we would fight it as a family together and we would learn about it together. Um, and it wasn't a secret and there was no shame. Sometimes there's a shame with these things. Um, especially, it was particularly difficult because...Nobody had ever heard of this cancer. And, and the fact that it was incurable. So, all that language with cancer that we knew, of, "We're gonna beat it and cut it out and do those things," couldn't say those things. It was, this was gonna be a journey and this was now gonna be a part of our lives. And... Yeah, I think probably, probably changed us all a little bit that day.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett43:13

      The word incurable is, is a, is a hard word to accept, especially when you're, you have the type of personality that I can tell you have. It, it almost seems like control is... When I hear that word, it's like the control is taken from me. 'Cause if, you know, my natural... Um, when I was reading about your initial response to receiving that diagnosis, that, you know, "Cut it out. Attack it. We're gonna..." That would be my response.

   10. NMNicola Mendelsohn43:37

       Yeah, it was. I mean, that was part of that weekend where I was just trying to find a surgeon to... I kind of felt if I found that surgeon and they cut it out, then that would be on the path to curing it. Because in that moment, they didn't know if it was a... They thought it might have been a breast cancer that had spread, so they were going at it that way. But actually, it turned out it was a lymphoma that happened to be around the lymph nodes in, in the underarm. So, um, it was a whole new language and vocab, is to try and understand what it means to have an incurable cancer and then to start to understand that this one didn't have much research. And so all the questions you want to ask, it's, "Okay, so if I have treatment, how long is that gonna last for? How long will I be clear for?" And you go into a remission and then it comes back and... Th- th- there's just no knowledge and no information in the way that you want to have that knowledge. And so, I think a- I think one of the challenges of that word incurable is that it, it's always with you, and there's not a day that, uh, goes by where I don't think about the fact that I do have a blood cancer, um, and that the risks, especially through the last two years that we've had with COVID, have been very challenging for me and the family, um, up until the point where better treatments were available for people like me.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett44:54

       In these moments, both professionally and personally, there's a, um... There's sometimes a desire to be strong on the outside, brave face.

   12. NMNicola Mendelsohn45:11

       Yes and no. I was very... Look, I didn't... I never made this a secret, and, and in many ways I couldn't have. I suddenly disappeared from work because people knew I was having tests. And so I, I told, I told my team straight away, and, and people are wonderful, you know. People are like, "W- we're here for you. What can we do? What do you need?" I was like, "I don't know at the moment." And this cancer, as I said, is quite different inasmuch as I didn't even have treatment for 18 months, because wha- what is understood is the fact that... Because there's... We can't cure it, and because there could be new treatments, then the doctors do this thing called watch and wait, where literally they watch and they wait and they, they see what's happening, or as patients call it, watch and worry. And you have scans and you have blood tests, and then there'll come a point, maybe, that you'll need treatment. And my point came 18 months after that first diagnosis, where I was just unlucky that it grew around my kidney area. Some people can go several years without needing treatment. But they said I could have... It would, it would give me kidney failure, and so they deemed that I should, I should get the treatment there. That was a blow. And the only reason that was a blow, that moment, was because I thought I was gonna get two years. That's kind of the average after, if you get an early diagnosis. And I got 18 months, so that was a blow. Um, and then I had six months of chemotherapy and 18 months of immunotherapy treatment as well. And it was... You know, I, I did well. Not everyone does as well as me. It, it put the cancer into a form of remission. They call it no evidence of disease. But, you know, no chemo is fun. That's for sure.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett47:05

       What kind... Did you get any psychological support throughout this process? 'Cause we talk a lot about the physical symptoms, but the, the mental, um, the mental s- difficulties, I mean, are just quite honestly, like, unima- unimaginable. I just... All of the words you've used and the context of the family and all of these things, your team members... Was there some kind of psychological support that you, you sought out in therapy or, or other?

   14. NMNicola Mendelsohn47:36

       Actually, there wasn't, but I also think it was because I was so open. You know, you talked about, did I put on a brave face? I think the hardest thing I did was when I told my story more publicly, and I did it in two parts. The first part was when I stood up... We used to do an end-of-year conference in EMEA where everybody flew in, and I stood and told my story to everybody. And that was one of the hardest things I, I've done, w- the story of the diagnosis. And I wept on the stage. I mean, I literally had tears coming, um, down my eyes as I did it in front of everybody that worked with me. And people just inundated with m- me with hugs. And you know that thing of, "Don't hug me when I'm crying. It's gonna make me cry more." That, that happened, but people were so, so supportive. And then again when I, when I told my story on, on World Cancer Day, um, in the February, I was just inundated with support and love from people, people I didn't even know. And so many people sharing the story of having a similar disease or incurable disease that they've not gone public on for a variety of reasons, whether it was fear of...It was largely to do with work, actually, largely to do with they won't get that promotion if people think they're weak physically. And so, they live with this extra burden of having an in- a disease and putting on a brave face, hiding doctor's appointments. I never had to do any of that. And so, I felt strong mentally the whole way through this. I got my head around the cards that have been dealt with, to me, and as I said, I was never gonna go back to that weekend. And so, I made sure that I protected myself through the things that I did, through the things that I could take control on, um, in, in order to get that. But, I know that's not true for everyone and I certainly know that through... One of the things that we did was to grow this group on Facebook called Living with Follicular Lymphoma, it's almost 10,000 people now, which I kind of pinch myself, 'cause it's, it's the largest gathering of people that have ever existed with follicular lymphoma, and could only have happened because of Facebook. But the mental challenge and the anguish that people in the group talk about every single day, that haunts me and that, and that sort of drives me to do the work that I do, in terms of trying to find a cure.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett49:59

       It haunts you?

   16. NMNicola Mendelsohn50:00

       Yeah, because people... I know how bla- blessed I am. I'm blessed with my, with the job that I have, with my family, with my faith, with my community, all those pillars that support me and, and make me who I am, and I know how lucky I am to have that. And I read every day that so many are not. The group acts as a support for them, because you don't wanna talk to somebody else that's got a different cancer, it's not helpful, you know. Um, I had that in the early days, a lot of people with breast cancer wanted to tell me their story and it's actually s- thank you, but it's not that helpful. I need to know people that are two years ahead of me on this journey, who've got follicular lymphoma, that had the treatments I had, will have. That, that's the best help and support possible.

6. 50:47 – 1:00:04

   How did it impact your work & life?

   1. NMNicola Mendelsohn50:47

   2. SBSteven Bartlett50:47

      Was there ever a decision you made about whether to continue with work? Because this is, I know this is a question you've kind of been asked before about whether you, you know... Some would assume that if, if they were to get that diagnosis, they might retract from work and, and just stay home. What was your thinking around that?

   3. NMNicola Mendelsohn51:06

      It honestly never occurred to me. I, and I think I'd been very intentional in my life about the things that mattered to me and the things that I wanted. And I love what I do, I absolutely love my job. It, it is a lot of who I am. It is something that gives me huge energy, g- and, you know, helps me on, on my own journey and learning. So, it never occurred to me that if I was well enough, um, that I, that I would carry on working. And work h- you know, I was asked, you know, "Take the time off, whatever you need to do." I was like, "Oh, no, no, I don't want any time off. I wanna do... I wanna keep things as normal as possible, because I, I, I feel pretty blessed with the, with the life that I have. And if I'm well, I, I'll, I wanna do the job." And I, thank God I have been well. And even through the chemotherapy, I was able to work, which is, can often be a surprise because there's different types of chemotherapy and thankfully the one I had is not, didn't react as severely to me as some people have with theirs. I didn't lose my hair, for example, um, which I know is a hugely traumatic thing, especially for women. And so, I was able to work, but to do it in different ways.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett52:09

      On that day when you get that message from the doctors that, um, there's no evidence of disease and that your follicular lymphoma is in remission-

   5. NMNicola Mendelsohn52:22

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett52:23

      ... how was that day? How, do you, do you remember the day?

   7. NMNicola Mendelsohn52:25

      I do. And it, honestly, it was a bit of an anti-climax, because it only meant for now. And so, I'd sort of, I'd gone into that meeting going, "Either way, manage your own expectations so you're not disappointed." And so, if I didn't build myself up to go, "It's gonna be good, it's gonna be good news," I was like, "It's, this is just gonna be what it will be and you'll deal with it." And I think that really helped in terms of the management of the expectation. And so, when he told me that, I was like, "That's good." And he goes, "Aren't you more happy?" I was like, "No, that, that is good news, but there's still a journey ahead and, you know, I wanna find, I wanna be part of the team that finds a cure for this thing so that other people don't have to go through these meetings like you and I are gonna have to have."

   8. SBSteven Bartlett53:10

      Must be a nice conversation to have with your, with your kids, though.

   9. NMNicola Mendelsohn53:13

      It was good news. Um, you'd sort of get halfway through, they'd done a, a scan to say it was going well, and so they'd sort of drip-fed that information. And, but I, I didn't allow myself that euphoria of, "Yay!" I didn't do that moment. I, I, and that is quite a weird thing, if I think back on it now, because of the nature of the person that I am. I am quite celebratory. I am kind of that person. But I, that one was a mu- more muted, certainly was more muted.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett53:42

       To me, it doesn't entirely surprise me that that was your reaction, because you talked about, um, it being a process of, like, expectation management. And one would assume that if you can control your response to good news, it also helps you control your response to bad news in the same way. It seems, to me, I've done that in the past as a s- well, almost a defense mechanism.

   11. NMNicola Mendelsohn54:01

       Yeah. It, it is. It's a protection. It definitely is a protection thing. 'Cause if I was going in there going, "I hope it's good news. I hope it's good news," and then it's not, I'm just gonna be floored, right?

   12. SBSteven Bartlett54:10

       Mm-hmm.

   13. NMNicola Mendelsohn54:10

       And so, I already knew what the worst thing could be. I, I, I've got an incurable blood cancer, that's not going away. But it would just be, you know, let's see where this next part of this journey takes me.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett54:23

       How did that news impact the way that you saw your life and the... 'Cause, f- for me, the pandemic and watching what happened, happened to the world and seeing how that, that there was this tectonic plate underneath all of us that I'd never realized called our health, that I, as a young person, had never even realized could, was there or could move. And that if it did move, in fact, my whole life sat upon it. My career, my relationships, my family, everything, my goals, my ambitions, my future was all sat on this thing called health. And one day it shakes and you didn't know it was there.How does that change your view of your life and the decisions you make?

   15. NMNicola Mendelsohn54:55

       Yeah. An- and in many ways, our- our family had a trial run on the pandemic, 'cause going through chemo, you have to be super careful. I mean, we had the masks and the sanitizer at the door back in 2018 for anyone that came into the house. I didn't go to the theater, I didn't go out, didn't go on planes, et cetera, so had to be super, super careful, 'cause my immune system was shot to pieces. But actually, I didn't make a lot of major changes. You know, a lot of people that get a diagnosis like this do look at their life in- in that moment and go, "Well..." (laughs) Getting divorced, spending all the... Off to Vegas.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett55:29

       (laughs)

   17. NMNicola Mendelsohn55:29

       I- I- I didn't do any of those things, 'cause I think I'd been very intentional about the- about the life th- that I have, and been very pur- purposeful about some of the choices that, you know, we've made together as a family. And so, no, I... There was none of those kinda crazy things.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett55:46

       Did it change how you allocate your time at all? Did it- did it-

   19. NMNicola Mendelsohn55:49

       Yes, I did. Um, so I took control of some of the things that I could control. And so there was enough evidence knocking around about lifestyles and diets and things like that, especially with a disease which is about the immune system, about reducing inflammation within the body, and so I had a shocking diet. I was really not very good at exercise, i.e. I did none whatsoever. And so I did build that into my life. So yeah, they- they were, I guess, some pretty big changes then that I did make.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett56:19

       You talk about being intentional about your life. What does that mean to you? And why is that important?

   21. NMNicola Mendelsohn56:26

       Yeah. I- I actually practice something called vision writing, which is, um... You write as though it's a year from now, and you set out wha- looking back on the year you've just had, what you're going to achieve. And all the research says that if you write stuff down, then you- and you share it with people, you're more likely to do it. And I do it around my personal life, I do it around work, and then I do it around community. And I take people on the journey with me, you know, to help to work out what it's gonna... Then I write it down and then I- then I share it. And that's really helped me to be really thoughtful about what I wanna do in the next year. And certainly with the family, it's involved a huge amount of travel. We absolutely love traveling, uh, and seeing different places and exploring. And it's we sit together and we kinda go, "What do you wanna do this year? What are the things?" And when the kids were smaller, you know, the- some of the things that they wanted to do were kinda little things. I remember there was one where, um, I think Sam just wanted to go and have a Chinese meal. I'm like, "Yep, we'll have a Chinese meal." (laughs)

   22. SBSteven Bartlett57:31

       (laughs)

   23. NMNicola Mendelsohn57:31

       And his brothers and sisters laughing at him, um, for going, you know, "You- you underplayed that one." (laughs)

   24. SBSteven Bartlett57:37

       Yeah, you could've asked for anything. (laughs)

   25. NMNicola Mendelsohn57:37

       (laughs) And so for what you fancy doing, you know, different personalities of the children coming through. But I think- I think that- that has made a difference.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett57:47

       I read about some advice that Sheryl Sandberg had given you around that time, um, about not, uh, engaging in secondary worrying.

   27. NMNicola Mendelsohn57:56

       Yeah.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett57:57

       What is that?

   29. NMNicola Mendelsohn57:57

       Well, that- the secondary worrying is what I was talking about, which is, "Well, I'm gonna have chemo, it's not gonna work. Chil- I'm gonna die. John's gonna marry a wicked woman. Children are gonna be miserable. Boom." I'm like, "I'm exhausted, and it's miserable and depressing, and that- that's just giving the power away." And- and she was right. I mean, it was such good advice just to kind of- to say that. Don't- don't allow yourself to do that. And I think... Uh, you know, I think that is something that people do with bad news. You know, you take yourself into a- into a different place of all the things that- that could go wrong. But I think people do that in- in all aspects of life. If you go for a job interview and, you know, you start to worry about not getting it, well, that's not gonna be very helpful, is it.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett58:39

       (laughs)
7. 1:00:04 – 1:06:20

   Mark Zuckerberg & company culture

   1. NMNicola Mendelsohn1:00:04

      by him.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:04

      What's he like?

   3. NMNicola Mendelsohn1:00:06

      Oh, he's incredible. Absolutely incredible leader. Um, he sees things that others don't necessarily see. Um, and he's always right. (laughs)

   4. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:16

      (laughs)

   5. NMNicola Mendelsohn1:00:17

      In those things, in terms of what he plants, in terms of where the North Stars are, no question. And then he's really clear. He gives very clear direction as to what's important, what- what matters, where the trade-offs are gonna be, and what he expects of people. And I think having that clarity of, you know, the things that we're gonna measure the company against, or the individual against, those are really important things. And, you know, growing up in agencies, as we both did, those were things that didn't really exist. It was all done on touchy-feely, "How's that person doing?" And if you weren't...You know, if you weren't kind of in that crowd, then it was hard for people. Whereas, working Meta, you've got really clear objectives as to what you need and should do. And the fact that everybody has them means that we can point towards the- the North Star, and in this case, the building, our part in the building of the metaverse.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:09

      When you talk about he, you know, he has this very high conviction, and he can see things that a lot of people can't see, um, and then it's proven right, what are the key moments of sort of self-disruption where you think he was really righ- right? He was exceptionally high conviction to the point that it probably didn't make sense to a lot of people, but it- but it was, uh, proven to be correct. Uh, was mobile the first?

   7. NMNicola Mendelsohn1:01:31

      Yeah, it was. I think mobile is the first time that we- that strength of leadership and that pivot really came through and in the actions that he had, because lots of leaders talk stuff but then don't follow through with the action. And the fact that, you know, back in 2012, 2013, Mark turned around and said, you know, "Facebook was- was built late, so it was built on- on desktop, it wasn't mobile first. We need to shift the company to mobile." And so the product guys were still coming in with desktop innovations, and he stopped them. And like, you know, for two weeks he didn't have any meetings because nobody had any mobile application to share with him of how this was gonna work. And so by being really clear as to what the expectations were, people were able to move very quickly in terms of what the deliverables. And we've seen it time and time again since then. So, you know, the- the shift to video, the shift to Stories, and now the shift to Reels that we're going through, the short form video now is another one of these pivotal moments that we- that we've seen.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:31

      In big companies, it's hard to get... I mean, you know, it's hard to get that agility and innovation often to keep up with a changing world, for many reasons. I mean, people have come to work, they're qualified in one thing, they've done it their whole life. So it's- it's understandable why there mi- might be friction and reluctancy to go from being like a, you know, a- a developer on, uh, desktop to mobile. Like, that's not what I do, I don't know it, so there's so much re- friction and resistance. How does- how does Mark and Facebook, and how does the company overcome that? You talked about being very, very clear. What does that mean in r- practical terms? Does that mean like, "You will be fired if you don't," or does it mean...

   9. NMNicola Mendelsohn1:03:10

      No, I think it's more about the culture that's created that allows people to fail, um, and demo- and talks about that with openness and vulnerability of, "We tried this and it didn't work." But if- if we're not setting ambitious goals, then we- then we- we wouldn't not be failing. We have to fail as a tech company to get to those bigger n- North Stars. But the key thing is, is to make sure that we're taking the learnings from those failures and then applying it and telling the stories of those things as well. So you create a safe environment for people to go, "Well, I'm gonna do this thing and I'm gonna go all in because this is my hypothesis of why it will work." And then if it doesn't, to have the self-reflection to go, "Why didn't? What can we learn? What's the debriefing that needs to happen?" And we take learnings from so many different places, you know. Um, the- the military is a great one that, you know, when operations don't w- all operations, good and bad, they debrief directly after. That's kind of a muscle that we also have as well, and that just keeps making us better.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:06

       On that- on that switch from web to mobile, let's say, um, I- I'd read that Mark had basically said, "I'm not taking..." And you kind of alluded to it a little bit there, but, "I'm not taking any meetings until people start bringing me mobile products to look at." Is that re- is that true?

   11. NMNicola Mendelsohn1:04:21

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:22

       'Cause that for me is one of those- that's a very practical thing where a leader goes, "I'm so high conviction that I'm no longer gonna take meetings about the old thing."

   13. NMNicola Mendelsohn1:04:30

       Absolutely.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:31

       And that's- that for me is an example of- of what I was talking about, like in a very practical sense, that's- that's a very high conviction thing to do.

   15. NMNicola Mendelsohn1:04:41

       Absolutely. And a different example of it is, um, on the shift to live video, uh, when that was first becoming a thing, Mark called what we call a lockdown and moved resources on the engineering side from whatever they had been working on. And it's not like those things weren't important that they were working on to be able to then work on this product, so convinced was he of it. And when we go into lockdown, it's- it's kind of it's like hackathons, it's day and night, people are kinda going for it. And it's, you know, you set a clear time period with the deliverables and, uh, and the expectation when the deliverables happen.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:15

       And when it- when Mark might present his vision for these sort of tectonic shifts that are going on in the macro tech environment that he believes are important to Facebook, how does he communicate that to everybody to bring them along?

   17. NMNicola Mendelsohn1:05:28

       Yeah.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:29

       Because often leaders when they- when they have a vision in their mind, they'll just go, "We're gonna do this." But I think bringing people along is- is- is a process of, uh, e- explaining and inspiring.

   19. NMNicola Mendelsohn1:05:38

       Yeah, it is. And, you know, he does, uh, a weekly Q&A for the whole company where the company can ask anything. And it's interesting because, you know, we're learning as a company as well, we're 17 years old, some of the questions get repeated week in, week out because you've got new people coming. And so now we answer some of those by, um, by writing about it. But he's very open about it, and he talks about what we're learning, he brings in other leaders to share how they're doing on some of the- the challenges. We have, you know, after every earnings there's, you know, a company, uh, meeting where we're setting out the vision as to where we see the next year. So everyone's really clear about what the North Star are, what the priority areas for the company are, and what everybody can do to contribute their part to each one of those company priorities.

8. 1:06:20 – 1:09:32

   From Facebook to Meta & what is the Metaverse

   1. NMNicola Mendelsohn1:06:20

   2. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:20

      So this Meta shift, I think it was very surprising to a lot of people, because it's one thing to, you know, add a- add a new, I don't know, product to a- to a company, but to change the name is a very high conviction statement about the future. I mean, it doesn't get more high conviction than that. Can you tell me about when you first heard that Facebook was changing into Meta, your initial thoughts about that and how it was delivered to- to the company?

   3. NMNicola Mendelsohn1:06:49

      Yeah. So I found out earlier, I was one of the team that obviously found out a- a bit earlier. Um...And I just remember just going, "Oh my God, I absolutely love this." And it- it basically picks up on a lot of what we've just talked about. I love the boldness, I love the name. Absolutely love the name. I saw that it addressed pretty quickly, you know, some of the challenges that we saw about the fact that, as I said, the company's 17 years old and started just as Facebook. And we had Facebook as the company and we had Facebook as the biggest app. But by now, we were all these other apps as well, Instagram, WhatsApp, you know, Portal, O- Oculus Quest, et cetera, Messenger. And there was a lot of confusion around it. So I thought not only did it solve that, but then to show as a kind of a new North Star, uh, for the company. We'd always been a social technology company and this is kind of a new way of how people are gonna, um, communicate, live, experience in- in a whole new way going forwards. And we're right at the beginning of it, right at the beginning.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:50

      When you first hear that though, isn't that slightly terrifying?

   5. NMNicola Mendelsohn1:07:52

      No, it's so totally exciting. And 'cause we're now in a really interesting period, which is we're old enough to have seen what, you know, the first iterations, the first couple of iterations of what the internet were, and we're now at the beginning of this third phase, the Metaverse, Web3.0, all of this coming together that wouldn't have been possible before because the technology wasn't there. And- and a lot of the technology still isn't there. We're talking about something that's still gonna be probably 5 to 10 years off before that really immersive experience for many, uh, is realized. And so to be right in at the early doors, I just think is super, super exciting and to be one of the companies that will hopefully help to shape that.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:32

      What is the Metaverse? (laughs)

   7. NMNicola Mendelsohn1:08:35

      (laughs)

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:35

      It's funny. It's funny 'cause it always- almost reminds me of, like, early, you know, early Web 1.0 and Web 2.0, people ask the same questions over and over again, and I've watched the, like, news anchors saying, "What is internet anyway?" And then stumbling to answer the question. And I see- see this a lot. We're all- we're all struggling in some respects to find a nice definition. But in Facebook's definition, what is- what is the Metaverse?

   9. NMNicola Mendelsohn1:08:55

      Yeah. So i- it's the next iteration of the internet, one that is much more immersive, one that can allow you to do things that you couldn't do, um, perhaps in- in real life, um, or enhance that. And it- it's gonna be a continuum of things. It's not gonna just be one thing. People often think it takes you straight to this VR immersion, but actually it's a continuum of everything from how you use your phone, you know, it uses AR, VR, it uses AI. Um, and it's gonna... In the same way that, you know, the Web 2.0 has impacted so many different aspects of our lives, so this will too, um, as well.

9. 1:09:32 – 1:15:42

   The good and the bad of the digital world

   1. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:32

      I know you must be s- I'm gonna- I'm gonna make a presumption. I know you must be sick of- of the questions around the negative consequences. Like with Web 2.0, we- I think we conducted an experiment about social media and social networking because the technology enabled us to. So we- we had these... You know, initially, we had desktop computers, then we had mobile devices. The internet got really good. The- the social networks emerged from Friendster, to Bebo, to MySpace, to Facebook and all of that. Um, and in hindsight, we've now learned about the role that these tools play, for better and for worse in our lives. Because of this new Web3.0, Metaverse technology being perceived as being some kind of, like, headset you'll don and you'll go into this other planet where you'll be doing much of your social interactions that you do in real life now in this virtual world, p- people are understandably scared. They're scared because they're already seeing their kids glued to social media apps, and TikTok, and Instagram, and Messenger, and Snapchat or whatever, and they're thinking, "Well, they're gonna be wearing a headset in, you know, some virtual- on some virtual planet." You're a parent. Is there not... And I know that you- you care a lot about your own kids' screen times 'cause you- you've said that before. It's one of the things that you're very particular on, especially with the youngest of your children. Um, do you have any concerns that we- we're going more and more into a digital world that's taking away the, th- what it is to be a human?

   2. NMNicola Mendelsohn1:10:59

      So we're already in a digital world and so that- that's a fact and that's a reality, and how we live within that I think is the important question. And our vision of the Metaverse isn't one where we're gonna increase, it just is more about the- the time that you spend online can be so much more enhanced. But to be clear, there is nothing better than sitting with you in your dining room right now. (laughs)

   3. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:21

      (laughs)

   4. NMNicola Mendelsohn1:11:21

      That's fabulous, right?

   5. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:22

      Yeah.

   6. NMNicola Mendelsohn1:11:22

      The fact we can have a hug-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:23

      Mm-hmm.

   8. NMNicola Mendelsohn1:11:23

      ... and all the rest of it. Those things are great. I never want to replicate that. But if you have got the ability to be able to- to step into another world to see things that perhaps most people would never be fortunate enough to see, you know, the Barrier Reef, Machu Picchu, wherever those things are, that's pretty extraordinary. How we educate in the future. You can't change what's gonna happen when it comes to technology and progress. But I think there is another aspect that I think that we've learned from what's happened in the last 20 years, which is that technology can be used for good and bad. And so let's get ahead now, early doors, before this thing is fully realized, let's create guardrails, which is something that we as a company are doing. We're putting money out there working with academia, working with governments, et cetera, to start to work out what the guardrails should be so it doesn't come as a surprise, um, that is a- actually something that we can build for intentionally from the get-go.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:16

      It's a huge opportunity as well, isn't it, for- for society, it's a huge o- opportunity for entrepreneurs, for- for, um, the builders of the future, it's a huge opportunity for brands.

   10. NMNicola Mendelsohn1:12:26

       Yeah, this is just so exciting 'cause it is gonna impact everything. I think about the fact that, you know, my grandchildren will- will finally learn in a different way than I learned at school. And the fact that they will be able to have an immersive history lesson or immersive geography lesson where they can actually go for a, you know, a scuba dive, swim and- and see what the coral reefs are like or walk down the streets of ancient Jerusalem as it was then-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:52

       Mm-hmm.

   12. NMNicola Mendelsohn1:12:52

       ... and have that brought to life. I mean, that, looking up and looking around and- and seeing what that... I mean, totally gonna disrupt education in a positive, exciting way. But we're already seeing how it's, you know, impacting for good things like the- the- the health industry, uh, and medicine where we're seeing surgeons now already training, um, and doing operations in- in VR and- and practicing, which... A- and the- and the stats are saying that they're coming out as better surgeons-

   13. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:19

       Mm-hmm.

   14. NMNicola Mendelsohn1:13:19

       ... than people that are just getting the odd-... body that they can kind of, uh, uh, experiment, and that kind of makes sense as well. And then from the business side, when you asked about brands, the opportunity it's gonna create for creators and whole new jobs that we can't even imagine yet, that don't, that don't exist. I think the creator economy is going to be something that we're gonna see a really significant, um, uptick in, more people being able to make money through creativity. I think that's really exciting.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:46

       I get all the excitement. We, what we learned from the last 20 years of the internet is that there's always a cost. There's always a cost. When you're thinking about what those, what the, the downsides are, what are, what are, what are the things you're guarding against? Like, what are the things you're thinking, "Okay, we need to make sure that we build with this in mind"?

   16. NMNicola Mendelsohn1:14:02

       Hmm.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:02

       'Cause I don't think we did that over the last 20 years with the internet. Um, I don't think we built very intentionally, uh, over the last 20 years, so...

   18. NMNicola Mendelsohn1:14:12

       Yeah, I think, I think it's an important question. I think about the fact that we're, we're being very intentional with building diversity and equity into all of our-

   19. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:21

       Mm-hmm.

   20. NMNicola Mendelsohn1:14:21

       ... products and everything that we do. So, I am unbelievably proud of the fact that you go in today and you wanna create your avatar and there's over a quintillion different versions of avatars th- that you can create. I don't know if we would have had that 10 years ago.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:35

       Mm-hmm.

   22. NMNicola Mendelsohn1:14:35

       Um, the fact that you ha- can have that, can see th- to be very intentional about some of these things, that people can represent themselves as they want to be represented, I think is really important.

Episode duration: 1:52:13