Mia Khalifa Opens Up About The Dark Side Of The Adult Entertainment Industry | E248

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 0:00 I, I couldn't scream loud enough. There's nothing I could do to make it go away or to make them stop. I, I didn't ...

Steven Bartlett 0:08 Are you okay talking about this?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 0:10 Um. Can we take a break? Mia Khalifa. Mia Khalifa. Mia Khalifa. Mia Khalifa. I'm Sarah. I'm Sarah f-ing Joe. Sarah Joe. The former adult film star ...

Steven Bartlett 0:22 Now business owner and social media activist.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 0:24 With over 50 million followers.

Steven Bartlett 0:27 Where should this story start?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 0:29 I lived through a lot of conflict in Lebanon, and then I moved to America, and I was bullied for being Middle Eastern. It was around the time of 9/11. That was pretty difficult. Made a lot of choices that I can't take back.

Steven Bartlett 0:42 Your husband, when you're 18 years old, is encouraging you towards the adult entertainment industry. What did they stand to gain from that?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 0:49 Fetishization. I fucked up, because I signed a contract that says, "In perpetuity," on it. Do you know how dangerous and predatory that is?

Steven Bartlett 0:59 When, when was your anxiety at its highest?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:01 The company going after me publicly. The major production companies prey on vulnerable young women. Didn't shower, didn't brush my teeth, didn't eat, didn't leave my bed. It's following me for the rest of my life, but I am not the sum of the things I've been through or the adversities I've faced.

Steven Bartlett 1:21 For people that are really struggling, how did you get out of that phase? I have some breaking news. And th- no, this is an emergency. I've spent the last two years writing a book, and I've written 33 laws for business, marketing, and life that I derived from all of these conversations I've had here. I traveled the world to write this book. I interviewed some of the most incredible people. I did six months of an- extensive research on scientific studies and principles to corroborate everything that I wrote into these 33 laws. And ladies and gentlemen, that book called The Diary of a CEO: The 33 Laws for Business, Marketing, and Life is now available for pre-order, and there are 5,000, only 5,000, signed copies, and it's first come first serve. The link is in the bio right now, so if you want that book... Honestly, it's the best book I've ever written. It's the book I always should've written. It's the book I also wish someone had written for me when I was starting out in my career. I'm really proud of it. I'm really, really proud of it. Really, really proud of it. And I can't wait for all of you to get to read it. It's out in August. I couldn't be more excited about this, as you can probably tell. I don't know what to sa- to say other than the words I've said to emphasize my excitement 'cause I think it's important, and I think it's really valuable. Um, link in the description. Where

Steven Bartlett 3:00 should this story start? Where, where should, where does your story start? What is the most sort of pertinent moment that you recall from your memory that has shaped the woman that is sat in front of me today?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 3:13 It honestly feels like the last year or two. That's, that's where, that's where my life started, and where I should start, because the woman that's in front of you right now has been a work in progress and is still a work in progress. And I feel like I've been my m- like, my most authentic and purest form of myself in the past year or two. Like, the closer to today we get, the more secure I feel in who I am and who that person is. But obviously there was a lot of other things that happened to get me to this point, but t- yeah, to answer that question, like a year or two.

Steven Bartlett 3:51 Let's start at the end then-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 3:53 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 3:53 ... um, which is today.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 3:54 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 3:55 Why? Why the closer we are to today the more authentic you feel to yourself? Why?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 4:02 I'm, I'm going after the things I actually want, and I'm growing into my confidence. And the self-assurance that I've gained from, from doing the things I love and accomplishing my goals has formed who I am, and it feels really good, and it feels very validating. And it's just... It, it's never clicked before, and they always say, like, "Oh, the con- confidence is the key to everything. Confidence will unlock everything for you." And I never really understood that because it's like, okay, where the fuck does the confidence come from? How do you just simply get confident? And, um, I have grown to realize that confidence comes from just accomplishing things that you wanna accomplish and being proud of yourself. And that pride makes you feel confident. Like, I, I, I feel confident even when I mess up now, whereas if I messed up five, six, ten years ago it would send me into a pit of shame, um, a really unhealthy just downward spiral that would get me nowhere.

Steven Bartlett 5:11 Did you ever imagine being here? Did you ever imagine being in the state you currently are today, happiness, confidence, et cetera, et cetera? And I don't wanna put words in your mouth right now in terms of the word happiness, but, uh, y- the place you are today, in the re- over the last ten year- did you imagine you would get to this point or did this seem unimaginable?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 5:30 It seemed unimaginable for a while, but my mental health was also not as strong as it is today. Um, there was, there was a lot of periods in my life where I couldn't see past 48 hours, let alone 10 years. It was very day-to-day for a while, and I think that's why I'm so confident 'cause n- right now, if you ask me what I can see in 10 years, I feel like I can answer that. I know what I want. I know what my goals are, and what I want to accomplish so-... yeah. Even in interviews five years ago, when they would ask me, "Where do you see yourself in five years?" I would always say, "I have no fucking clue. I don't know where I see myself next week."

Steven Bartlett 6:12 And what changed?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 6:15 Taking risks, honestly. Um, just taking a few risks here and there and seeing them play out for the better and learning from my mistakes and learning what I want and saying no to a lot of things to get to what I want, like job opportunities and- and things that didn't really align with what I thought I wanted in a year or two or five years or even 10 years as, like, my confidence started to grow and I started to actually see life plans for myself. Um, taking- taking risks and walking away from those risks, either having them play out for the better or, um, learning from the mistakes and learning, oh, this didn't work. This is what I need to do next time. Oh, this didn't work. I crossed my own... I- I- I crossed a boundary of mine and now I don't feel good. Now I know this is past where I should be pushing myself. Um, a lot of trial and error.

Steven Bartlett 7:14 Confidence. Confidence is a through line throughout your story. Um, take me back to your earliest memories of lacking in confidence.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 7:23 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 7:24 And wh- 'cause I- you know, I came to this country from Botswana in Africa when I was a young- young boy, and I struggled... I think we both struggled with, um, being accepted by the culture we had arrived in. Me in Plymouth, only Black kid, curly hair, trying to figure out why my hair's not straight, relaxing it chemically all the time, um, why we're the only Black family in this all-white school, et cetera, et cetera. And then that battle with, like, the lack of enough-ness, not feeling like I was enough and what I did to- to try and make myself feel like I was enough. But take me back to your story at the earliest moment where you struggled with, um, not feeling like you were enough or confident enough.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 8:03 I mean, it does... It's not even coming to America. It's being in Lebanon. There was colorism there. I was the darkest one in my family. There was colorism at the school that I was at. Um, I felt like a bit of an outsider because I was darker than what the beauty standard for a Lebanese girl is, which is light ha- light ski- light- lighter skin, olive undertones, dark hair, green eyes. Like, that's the epitome of a beautiful woman in Lebanon. Um, and then I moved to America, and that just got... It went to the extreme side of that. I was definitely one of the darkest kids. I was bullied for being Middle Eastern. It was around the time of 9/11. That was pretty difficult, um, especially since it was in Washington DC, and Washington DC was heavily impacted by 9/11. Um, the Pentagon was hit. New York is not that far from us. It's about four hours. Like, so many people in my school either had family and parents that worked at the Pentagon. It was a lot of bullying that then turned into internalized racism, and all I wanted to do from then forward, like you said, you wanted to relax your hair, you wanted to... Y- y- you wanted to assimilate and fit in. I also wanted the same thing, and I just held that in, and it- it turned into internalized racism.

Steven Bartlett 9:25 Ho- how did that go for you? Because I- I often reflect, and I'm... I think it's taken me time to look back o- in hindsight and realize what I was feeling, versus in the moment, you're kind of just in a state of, like, defense. It's like, "How do I get through today? How do I get these people to like me?" Versus, uh, you know, and I look back and think, "No, man, you had so much shame. Like, you were carrying around shame and insecurity." Um, how did that girl at that time... So, you... How old are you at this point? Seven, 10, 11?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 9:50 Um, eight, nine.

Steven Bartlett 9:53 Eight, nine, okay. And h- h- how, how... Were you aware of your feelings, I guess is the question in part?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 9:59 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 9:59 Yeah?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 10:00 Yeah, very much so. I think, I think... Yeah, I've always been an introvert and, um, very aware of- of what I was going through and angsty and even, like, going into my teen years, I've always been aware of the fact that I... What I was feeling is shame or what I was feeling is, um... I'm not feeling like I'm enough. I feel like I... Yes, I've- I've al- I've always been aware of that feeling. It... There was also confusion with it, but I think self-awareness has been prevalent the whole time.

Steven Bartlett 10:42 What was your relationship like with yourself in those t- teen years?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 10:46 I was very hard on myself. Um, I was very angry at myself for not fitting in and for not being a certain way. And, um, yeah, just... I did not like myself. I didn't like the reflection in the mirror, and me not liking the reflection in the mirror obviously affected my confidence, my self-esteem, everything. So, in turn, I also didn't like the choices that I was making, which made me not only hate the reflection, but hate the person that I was with at the end of the day.

Steven Bartlett 11:19 The choices you were making?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 11:21 Yeah. Um, I think insecurity leads you to... Leads you to do things for validation that you otherwise wouldn't if you were secure in yourself or if you respected yourself or if you loved yourself.

Steven Bartlett 11:35 Like relationship choices, c-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 11:37 Relationship choices, um, lifestyle choices, e- anything. Anything.

Steven Bartlett 11:43 What- what- what are some of those... So- so, uh, in the context of relationships, from doing this conversation with multiple people, I've- I've started to sort of piece thoughts together around... If your self-esteem is lacking, you might become a people pleaser-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 11:56 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 11:56 ... in- in your prof- in your work. So you might, you know, be exploited by your work and you might not get what you deserve in your job. Is there anything else that, uh, you've seen as a symptom or a consequence of having s- r- real low self-esteem?... that people might be able to relate to. Like, for you, what-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 12:13 So much.

Steven Bartlett 12:13 Yeah.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 12:13 It's such a broad spectrum, because you can either turn into a people pleaser, or you can turn into an insufferable c-. A people pleaser, on the surface level, everyone loves a people pleaser. They, they want to please everybody.

Steven Bartlett 12:24 Mm-hmm.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 12:24 But the downside of a people pleaser is they want to please everybody. They have no boundaries with themselves or with other people. They don't respect their own boundaries. They don't respect others' boundaries. If they're people pleasing person A and what person B wants goes against what person A wants, they will find a way to please both of them. So, a people pleaser also turns into someone who lies, someone who deceive, someone who is a habitual boundary crosser with themselves and with other people. Like, it's, there's, there's a spectrum to it. I would say I was definitely a people pleaser. I also sought validation from, from people whose, looking back on it now, whose opinion I probably shouldn't have respected back then, let alone today. Um, so that is, that was a, that was a downside. Um, made a lot of choices that I, that I can't take back, porn being one of the biggest ones, but I feel like that wasn't even the first one. The first one was getting into a relationship that I never should've been in with someone who was v- extremely abusive, extremely dangerous in the sense that w- looking back on it and, and having the self-awareness and, and being able to call it what it was, is grooming. It was, it was, it was just a relationship that I feel like a lot of girls get into when they're in their late teens.

Steven Bartlett 14:10 Why, why does that happen?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 14:12 What do you mean?

Steven Bartlett 14:12 How, this re- getting into a relationship w- when you're roughly 18 years old, wasn't it? It-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 14:17 The relationship started when I was 16.

Steven Bartlett 14:19 Okay.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 14:20 And then went until I was about 20.

Steven Bartlett 14:22 And this person was significantly older than you?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 14:24 Yes. Yes. The age difference was, had a play in that dynamic. My low self- esteem had a play in that dynamic. Um, everything was just kind of, like...

Steven Bartlett 14:40 16?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 14:40 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 14:42 Uh, this person's double your age?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 14:43 No, no, no. It, it was about a 10-year age difference.

Steven Bartlett 14:46 Okay. Okay. And at 16, what were you, when you looked forward t- to your future, had you asked yourself that question about, you know, "What happens in 10 years time?"

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 14:56 Oh.

Steven Bartlett 14:56 Would you have had an-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 14:56 No.

Steven Bartlett 14:56 ... had an answer?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 14:57 No. I wouldn't have known what happened in a week's time. It was... I mean, I got, I got talked into eloping to Las Vegas four days after my 18th birthday. So, if you ask me where I see myself in five years, I don't, I don't know. I would've looked at you with doe eyes and said, "I don't know." And then looked over at him, "Where do you see me in five years?" Like, y- I... I didn't have a sense of self, so I attached myself to someone who was more than happy to abuse that, and someone who could see that and see someone easily manipulatable.

Steven Bartlett 15:39 Yeah.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 15:39 But at the same time eager to please. So, yeah, it was just the perfect storm.

Steven Bartlett 15:48 Perfect storm.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 15:49 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 15:50 You got married at 18.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 15:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 15:52 Even that is uncommon, to say the least.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 15:56 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 15:57 (laughs) Um-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 15:58 Do not recommend it.

Steven Bartlett 16:00 H- u- so, when you say that this, this, you know, this person clearly took advantage of s- several things that were present and new, whether that was low self- esteem or, um, you know, just general, uh, inexperience and naivety of being a, a young, a young woman, um, which direction in life did they push you in- towards? Did they push you towards b- becoming a, a really good partner to them? Or did they put you, push you in a professional direction? Or was it, did they pull you towards thems- themselves?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 16:29 Yeah, it was... There, there wa- there was no encouragement. There was no pushing towards anything. It was an extremely unhealthy relationship, and I, I even feel weird calling it a relationship, because the dynamic wasn't one of a relationship. It was more one of someone who saw a toy to play with. Um, they were... Their... The industry they were in is probably not the one that you're thinking of. They were in the army. (laughs) So, it wasn't even... It had nothing to do with the porn industry, but it also had everything to do with it. They were the ones who kind of put that whole world in front of me and encouraged it, and-

Steven Bartlett 17:16 They encouraged it?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 17:17 Oh, very much so.

Steven Bartlett 17:18 Uh, your, your husband?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 17:20 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 17:21 I struggle to understand this. How, h- so your husband, when you're 18 years old, is encouraging you towards the adult entertainment industry?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 17:32 It started off as just online. But then eventually, yeah, when, when I was asked to, to... I was given, I was given a business card and told to think about it. I went home. I laughed it off, and the consensus was, "You should do it. I think it would be great." That's what I mean.

Steven Bartlett 17:53 Okay, so you're, um... I read the story. You were out, out at lunch somewhere. Someone, a guy walks up to you when you're, how old?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 18:01 20.

Steven Bartlett 18:02 And gives you a business card and says, "If you ever wanna consider getting into the adult entertainment industry, here's my number." You take that home. I was wondering this when I read a- read about that part of your story. Um-What happened post-bus- that business card? You know, because I was, I think when she was married, so, you know, I've got a partner. My, my girlfriend comes home and says, "A man's come up to me in the street and given me a card and made me an offer like that." Um, my, I'm gonna be honest, my natural disposition would be to, like, fucking burn the card.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 18:31 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:32 Like-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 18:33 Well, they were also unhealthy, had mental health issues that I don't know if they've ever addressed. But it's a sickness. And they were not the right p- what... The whole point of this is when your relationship with yourself isn't right, you are not going to find the right person. You're not going to choose the right person. You're not gonna choose someone who wants the best for you or will bring the best out of you, because you don't want that for yourself.

Steven Bartlett 19:06 What, what were they getting out of it, you doing that, you accepting the invitation from that business card? What did they stand to gain from that?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 19:13 Fetishization.

Steven Bartlett 19:14 Really? That was it?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 19:15 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 19:16 So there wasn't a commercial element or anything like that-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 19:18 No.

Steven Bartlett 19:20 ... for them? Do you forgive that person?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 19:21 No, I forgive myself.

Steven Bartlett 19:23 Yeah?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 19:23 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 19:23 Do you think there's a need to forgive people in life?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 19:26 Um, I think you need to f- forgive yourself for... If someone has crossed your boundary, you need to forgive yourself for letting that happen, for giving them a position in your life to hurt you like that. Me telling you that wasn't to explain or shift blame. It was to give context as to where I was mentally.

Steven Bartlett 19:46 How would you, from, from that point onwards, from t- twenty years onwards then, for the next couple of years, wh- when you look back at, at, at the m- the Mia, um-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 19:54 Sarah.

Steven Bartlett 19:55 ... Sarah.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 19:56 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 19:56 Would you prefer to be called Sarah?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 19:58 Yeah. Yeah. But it also, it's not, I don't take offense to... I did, I did a while ago, but I don't take offense to it, or I don't-

Steven Bartlett 20:06 Mm-hmm.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 20:06 ... feel like, "My name's actually Sarah."

Steven Bartlett 20:08 Mm-hmm.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 20:08 It's either/or.

Steven Bartlett 20:09 You prefer to be called Sarah?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 20:11 I do.

Steven Bartlett 20:11 Yeah?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 20:11 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 20:12 Okay. Um, so that's Sarah through that period of your life, characterized by low self-esteem, people around her, um, capitalizing on that in various different ways. You, in your own words, not knowing better at that time in your life. Um, at that point in your life, 20, 21, 22, you go and study, right? So you, you study at university, again, with the aim of pursuing some kind of academ- academic or professional pursuit. And what was that?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 20:37 History.

Steven Bartlett 20:38 History?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 20:38 Yeah. Didn't really see... Even then, I didn't see, like, a, like, a future doing anything. I just thought, "I really enjoy hi-" Studying history felt like watching a movie. Like, it, I'm-

Steven Bartlett 20:51 Yeah. (laughs)

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 20:51 ... I'm enamored with... Like, it, it's, it's my favorite subject. It felt like the easiest thing. Um, the second easiest thing is, like, psychology. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 20:59 Oh, I love psychology.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 21:00 (laughs) Yeah, exactly. They're the interesting ones. They're the juicy-

Steven Bartlett 21:03 Yeah.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 21:03 ... they're the juicy majors. Um, I didn't see myself doing anything other than whatever I had going on the next week, and then I guess the furthest I thought ahead was, "I guess I'll work in archives or work in a museum or something." I didn't have a plan, like, "Oh, I wanna be a teacher," or something.

Steven Bartlett 21:20 I've heard you talk about weight loss and weight-related issues-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 21:23 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 21:23 ... attached to the self-esteem conversation. What role did your weight play in, um, all of this and the self-esteem and the confidence and body image issues and all that?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 21:31 I think a pretty large one. My weight now still fluctuates. And the more that I've worked on myself in therapy, the less that bothers me and my... and, and affects my relationship with myself. So, even in the months where I feel like I do not look like myself, I don't feel like myself, I've let myself go a little bit, it doesn't affect me the way it used to 10 years ago. Um, I don't fall... Yeah, I, I, I don't let it get to me as much anymore. But it did for a very long time, because it was m- I weighed like 60 pounds more than this, which is a lot.

Steven Bartlett 22:08 That's a huge amount of weight to lose.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 22:09 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 22:11 I r- I read that the ways that you lost that weight were slightly, um, troubling.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 22:15 Yeah. I mean, I wasn't eating well. I wasn't exercising well. I had unhealthy habits. I was young.

Steven Bartlett 22:23 Therapy. You went to therapy. That's helped you get to, to where you are today.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 22:26 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 22:27 What role has therapy played in your life? And when did you first start going to therapy?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 22:29 Oh, the biggest role. 2016.

Steven Bartlett 22:33 Yeah.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 22:34 The biggest role. I don't, I mean, I'm still in therapy.

Steven Bartlett 22:37 Mm-hmm.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 22:37 I don't see myself ever stopping, really. I cycle out therapists. It's like... Yeah. I, I love it. I love, I love feeling like, "Okay, I'm ready. I'm ready for a f- fresh start. I'm ready for someone new. I'm ready for a new perspective." Um, it's, it's, it's a way to keep me grounded. Every week, I have to sit down and analyze myself, my, my thoughts, my past. Like, I have to dig down and actually come face to face with the decisions I've made, the, my ways of thinking, my, my, my relationship with myself. Like, there's accountability with therapy, and I think that's the biggest impact. I guess, accountability. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 23:19 What are the, what are, when you've dug down and sought to understand yourself, um, what are some of the key takeaways you've taken from, from therapy? As it re- so, when I think about that question, if I was to, uh, be, be on the receiving end of it, one of the first things that comes to mind is actually my re- my ongoing evolution of understanding why I was so avoidant in relationships, like always running away from any woman. Even if I pursued her and then she turned and said, "Okay, let's be boyfriend and girlfriend," I would just bounce. And I had this sort of, like, toxic model of, like, what love was from my parents. But then, also all the shame and insecurities, like, "I think I'm ambitious. No, I'm being dragged by (laughs) this need to be enough." Right? So those are kind of the two, two top-line ideas that I took away from my experience with sort of introspection. Are there any, like, big picture ideas that you've taken away from therapy that were epiphany moments, connected dots?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 24:06 That's a loaded question-

Steven Bartlett 24:07 Mm-hmm.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 24:08 ... because I- I'm so grateful for all of the information I've learned about myself, like, like, the dots I've been able to connect, like how...... being triggered by something a friend of mine says is actually related to the way that I felt like, the way that I felt ostracized on the playground when no one wanted to play with me. And, like, one little thing, even though they didn't mean it that way or- or even had any malicious intent behind it, has then taken me back to that 12-year-old girl who just feels so alone and doesn't know what she did wrong and- and just wants to people please. And I think the best part of therapy is, within a split... Have you seen That's So Raven?

Steven Bartlett 24:52 No.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 24:53 Oh. (laughs) It's this show with Raven-Symoné on the Disney Channel when we- when we were growing up, and she has these visions. She's a psychic, and she just, like, stares off into space and then she zooms out and then she zooms back in, and no time has gone, but she saw maybe a 30-minute vision play out. Um, but she comes back and it's been, like, a split second, and that's how, that's what therapy feels like. It takes me back and I analyze that moment and I understand that that moment is not this moment, and my friend cares about me and she's not actually trying to make me feel like no one wants to play with me on the playground just because she said, "You can come if you want," and not, "I want you to come." You know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 25:33 Mm-hmm.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 25:34 (laughs) Um, I think that's- that's the magic behind therapy. It gives you time traveling superpowers.

Steven Bartlett 25:41 Has it, has it changed your perception of the period of your life where you entered the adult entertainment industry? Has it, has it changed your perception, how you-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 25:50 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 25:50 ... yeah?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 25:50 Yeah, absolutely. I spent so much time wondering, "Why did I do this? This is not me." I was in it for such a short amount of time, and the entire time I was doing it, I was also asking myself every day, "Why am I doing this? What is wrong with me? What is wrong with me?" That's, like, the number one question. And I know what was wrong with me. I had low self-esteem, I had no boundaries with myself, I didn't respect myself, I didn't like myself. So many things were wrong with me, and all of these things anyone can work on. It's ha- it- it is- it is hard though. It's hard. Once you become self-aware, there's no going back. I think I cried more in the first two years of being in therapy than I ever did going through anything I did in my- in- in my- in my life, in my adolescence, in my early teens, in anything.

Steven Bartlett 26:41 This is why a lot of people don't go to therapy.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 26:43 It's hard. It's hard. That self-awareness is like... I mean, it's- it's- it... N- no. And es- especially once you start realizing things about people in your life that you've kind of put rose-colored glasses on for all your life to make up excuses or to kind of change the situation in your head so that you don't actually have to face what the reality was or- or the fact that, "Wow, this is actually a really situation. This person that I love, who's supposed to support me, who's supposed to be there for me, was actually not that great." In hind- not even in hindsight. In- in 20/20 sight, in actual vision. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 27:22 And the, um, the shedding that takes place when you con- you become ...

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 27:26 Shedding, that's a great word.

Steven Bartlett 27:27 Good word, isn't it? It's really accurate.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 27:27 Yeah, that's great. That's exactly how it feels. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:30 'Cause it means slowly letting these little pieces go. Um,

Steven Bartlett 27:34 what's interesting is when I read about your- your life post, uh, uh, the adult entertainment industry, which was only a couple of months anyway, all in all, um, you- you sounded incredibly isolated. So when I think about the word shedding, I think of all these people that you're letting go. But in that period, you sounded like you were alone.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 27:49 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:49 I remember the story of you going to Austin and meeting your friend on Twitter, ex- all those kinds of things. Um, take me to that period, then. So you- you- you make the decision that that- that career's not for you. Um, what happens the next, you know, the next day, week, month, post- post that?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 28:05 Fucking loneliness. I was living in an efficiency, in-

Steven Bartlett 28:08 What's that?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 28:09 An efficiency is not even a studio. It's where this rug cuts off, to that wall. That is wider than what it was, but definitely the length. My toilet s- my- my bathroom sink was also my kitchen sink. There was no stove. There was a broken window that I had tape over, and there was only one window. It was, uh, it was like s- it was- it's a room, I think they're popular in South Florida or, like... I- I don't think you have them here, 'cause I don't think they're legal to, like, sell as living spaces.

Steven Bartlett 28:38 Mm-hmm.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 28:39 Um, very lonely. Extremely lonely. But at that point in my life, loneliness was better than what I was doing before. And that, I think, was the start of (sighs) the tiniest, tiniest, tiniest bit of confidence. That gave me the confidence to take the risk of moving to Austin and starting a new life. And I was so lonely, I was so broke, I was so lost, I was so confused, but all I was completely 100% sure of was I don't want to do porn. I've never wanted to do porn. I'm never gonna go back to that. And standing firm on my ground, in my morals, in my boundaries, in just everything, that- that was, like, the tiniest glimmer of confidence starting to grow. Standing firm in my boundaries, even if I didn't know that was a boundary. I couldn't pinpoint it, I couldn't call it that. I didn't know what it was. I didn't have the verbiage or the knowledge or the self-awareness to- to- to call it what it was. But that was how it started. I would not... I- if I- if I hadn't moved to Austin, I wouldn't have started therapy, I wouldn't have... Tha- that was the domino effect of, in a positive way, in my life.

Steven Bartlett 29:57 Mm-hmm.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 29:57 It could've gone a completely other way, and it does for so many people. And I'm so, so, so grateful that I was able to get out.

Steven Bartlett 30:08 That first domino falling which took you to Austin in that- in that new direction, was there a catalyst? Was there something that pushed that domino? Because I- I noticed that in this- in this sort of timeline of events, you then, at the same time, separate from your partner around a similar time.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 30:23 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:23 You- y- and then you leave the- the adult entertainment industry. Is- was there a catalyst? 'Cause those two things, those two decisions are huge decisions and they feel correlated, they feel like they're attached.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 30:32 I had nothing to lose, and I think that I also knew, "I need to get the fuck out of Miami."I was in Miami at the time, and it was where everything happened, and I just did not want to be there anymore. It was, it, it felt daunting. It felt like walls closing in on me everywhere I went. Um-

Steven Bartlett 30:48 Was there, like, a catalyst day though? Something that happens that makes you go, "Fuck, I need to..." Or was it just slowly-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 30:52 Yeah, it was l- it was, I mean, it was the day I met my best friend on Twitter. I had, I didn't meet her that day on Twitter. Her and I had been following each other for a while. She was, she posts memes, I like them, vice versa. Um, she, we, her and I were talking about something. Oh, she said, "I'm looking for a mo- roommate. I'm asking around the office for a roommate." And I said, "What if I moved to Austin? I don't want to live in Miami anymore." And then I started looking up, how do you move states? Like, what does it take? What does it require? What paperwork do I need for my dogs? Like, all of that stuff. And then within a month, I was packed up and moved.

Steven Bartlett 31:27 And was th- was there a catalyst for you deciding to leave the adult entertainment industry, even though you were there for a couple of months? Was there anything-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 31:32 I think, I think it was how overwhelming everything became so fast.

Steven Bartlett 31:38 Ah, okay.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 31:39 Like, that, that was the reality check. It was like, it was like a light, like, they, when they turn the lights on at the club at 4:00 in the morning. Like, whoa.

Steven Bartlett 31:46 Ah, okay.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 31:46 The floors are sticky and nothing looks the same. This is not what I signed up for, it's not what I expected. I fucked up.

Steven Bartlett 31:56 That's not a typical experience for an, uh, an actress-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 31:59 No.

Steven Bartlett 31:59 ... in that industry.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 32:00 No, not at all.

Steven Bartlett 32:00 That is a very atypical experience-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 32:01 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 32:02 ... because you went from obscurity to n- to number one in an industry in, in weeks.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 32:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 32:11 So, you, you got hit by a fucking truck?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 32:13 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 32:15 Okay, that makes sense. Okay. You become a paralegal?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 32:20 Yeah, for a very short period of time. Like, six months.

Steven Bartlett 32:24 Tell me all about that.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 32:25 Nothing really much to say. It was for an insurance defense firm. It was pretty boring, and it was very much, like, cor- like, corporate. The insurance company that they represented was, it was GEICO. So it was, like, a very boring thing, and it was, it was just paper pushing. Um, it was really weird to work there, especially since that was my first job where I did it. Uh, I, I did the application and I went into it thinking, "This is the shift. This is, this is me putting Mia Khalifa behind me, and this is me, like, trying to be a real human." Um, did not work. Everyone in the office recognized me. It was a very uncomfortable work environment, not because, not because anyone was overtly inappropriate. It was just simply being in an office knowing anyone who walked through did a double take and was like, "Are you..." So, that was uncomfortable. Um, and then after that, I worked at a construction company, just doing bookkeeping and office work. And same thing, I would have to go on a job site, and the owner of the company just made it so I, like, I, I can't go on job sites. It was a distraction, it was not a good idea. It was, people would be, that, in that situation, people would be inappropriate sometimes. But yeah-m I, I started to feel like a burden in the offices where I was, and I hated that feeling. And I was actually sitting at that construction job in the office when I was talking to Rachel in the DMs, like, "I'm gonna move to Austin. Let's do it."

Steven Bartlett 34:00 Anxiety.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 34:01 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:03 Has that been a big part of your life for much of your life?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 34:05 Yes, very much so, and I think that has been prevalent from the very beginning.

Steven Bartlett 34:10 The very beginning, as in since you were a kid or a teenager or?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 34:12 Yeah, probably even in utero. I mean, my parents grew up in the civil war in Lebanon, and I lived through a lot of conflict in Lebanon, whether it be civil or the surrounding countries or whatever. But we left for a reason, and it's because it was dangerous. So I think I've always had that, like, I jump when I hear a noise. I jump when someone who's been in the room for four hours with me speaks, even though they haven't sp- because they haven't spoken in 10 minutes. Like, I get scar- like, I, I'm a jumpy person probably because of that.

Steven Bartlett 34:47 When, when was your anxiety at its highest?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 34:51 2019, 2020.

Steven Bartlett 34:54 Okay. So that's post-Austin?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 34:57 Oh, yeah, yeah. It was when-

Steven Bartlett 34:59 Like, three years after.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 34:59 It was post-everything, but it was in the midst of, uh, the porn company going after me publicly, and re-releasing things, and digging up footage that was corrupted in, in 2012, 20-, in 2013, whenever it was shot, and releasing it like it was new, and that coming back into the news cycle, and them just being extremely abusive, and exerting and proving that they still have control over me because I signed a contract that says "in perpetuity" on it.

Steven Bartlett 35:38 Your life had, had started to move-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 35:41 Oh, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 35:41 ... on from then and the

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 35:42 next time I saw her. ... I was, I was married again. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 35:43 You were married again, 2019. You're, where are you living at this point in time?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 35:47 I was living in LA.

Steven Bartlett 35:48 LA.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 35:49 Um, yeah. I was living in LA, I was doing my own thing. I was starting to figure out what it was I wanted to do and, and where I want... Like, th- thing- things were really good that year. It was, it was the year I had that little cameo in that incredible show, Ramy. Um, that was, that was really, that was a huge moment for me and I'm so grateful for that moment, and I'm so upset that that moment was, kind of, overshadowed by all of the negativity that came from, um, the, the porn company

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 36:25 in the subsequent months.

Steven Bartlett 36:27 The porn company, um, coming after you and attacking you. Not something you would expect from a company.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 36:33 A billion-dollar company at that.

Steven Bartlett 36:36 Yeah, yeah.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 36:36 Yeah, it goes to show you how petty and personal it is, um, because the people who are behind it aren't, aren't exactly the CEOs. It's, it's the-... bored pseudo producers who, who don't like that I'm out here talking about my experience. It, it's very much individuals, not the company. But these individuals do have the power to speak on the company's behalf.

Steven Bartlett 37:09 What are they threatened by?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 37:11 I think they're threatened by, (sighs) like you said earlier, most people in my position aren't in my position because they ... This is the outcome that the girls want who enter the industry, mo- most of them who enter the commercial porn industry, um, or the mainstream porn industry. They, they want the fame, they want the infamy, they want, they want all of that. Um, and I think for the first time, these individuals are experiencing someone who is fully aware of what was happening and is fully aware of what is and isn't ethical, and has the platform and the resources to speak on all of those things.

Steven Bartlett 37:55 What is your opinion of the industry now?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 37:57 I have a very unfavorable opinion on it. But I do think that there are ethical and unethical ways that you can support sex workers and consume porn. As, as someone who is a creator or as someone who is simply a consumer, there are ethical ways to do it. Granted, any company has its downsides. Like, even OnlyFans has trouble policing and, and regulating the people who are on their site. And the ... Every company has its downsides, but I would say that the major production porn companies are all predatory and abusive and unethical, and prey on vulnerable young women. And even me saying this, I already know that some of the responses back are gonna be from women in the industry that say, "No, it's not. No, it's not. It's great. It's fantastic, everyone is so nice. I love this company, I love working with ... I love all of this." And to be honest with you, I think that that rhetoric is grooming. I think that if you're going to enter the industry and you're going to be an advocate for it, it has to, it has to come with a caveat, and that caveat needs to be you shouldn't enter the industry unless you've already kind of been in the industry. It shouldn't be a first option for you. Like, that shouldn't be something that you simply go into because you ... Like, it ... Think about it more. Wait on it more. It, the, the age to go into the industry should not be 18. You're putting contracts in front of 18-year-old girls that have the words "in perpetuity" on them. Do you know how dangerous and predatory that is? These are three, four, five-page contracts.

Steven Bartlett 39:49 Jesus Christ. I mean, any contract when you're 18 years old, although it's like list, reading a different language.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 39:54 The legal verbi- it's jargon-

Steven Bartlett 39:55 Yeah.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 39:55 ... it's literally another language.

Steven Bartlett 39:57 Yeah. I was thinking about Miranda rights.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 40:00 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 40:00 We don't really have, like, Miranda ri- we have our own version of it here, but you get read-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 40:03 What, you do sing God Save the Queen?

Steven Bartlett 40:05 Oh, fuck, I don't give a fucking ... I've never been arrested. (laughs)

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 40:07 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 40:07 I'll let you know if I ... But, but you get read your Miranda ... I watch all of these, like, US crime interrogation videos as like, how I fall asleep. Don't, don't worry about it. 3s

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 40:15 (laughs) Wow.

Steven Bartlett 40:16 But, but I see them being read-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 40:17 Let's go back to anxiety. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 40:18 Yeah. (laughs) Yeah. I see them being read their Miranda rights before they get interrogated, and then they get offered a lawyer.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 40:24 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 40:26 Seems like maybe, from what you're saying, that's not a bad idea-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 40:29 No.

Steven Bartlett 40:29 ... if there was some kind of, like, implications clearly stated to people that are considering ent- entering the porn industry at a, at a young age, and the opportunity to have a lawyer or at least legal representation to impartially explain as a, as, as a third party the potential, um-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 40:45 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 40:45 ... implications for better or for worse, you know.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 40:47 I don't think that's ever going to be possible unless the laws change around-

Steven Bartlett 40:53 Change ... 3s

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 40:53 ... what, the, uh, uh, arou- around the, the rights that they have. It's just those two words, "in perpetuity." It's, it's-

Steven Bartlett 40:59 In perpetuity. What vi- vicious words. The worst words.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 41:02 Yeah. Not, not forever, not, not on, in your lifetime, not in our lifetime. On, in, in perpetuity of all lifetimes in all existence. Who needs that much control over a young woman's body?

Steven Bartlett 41:15 They still own the website with your name, with your-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 41:17 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:19 There's nothing you can do to have that website taken down?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 41:24 I mean, there is, but it's a very expensive lawsuit against a billion-dollar corporation. It's a conglomerate. They also own ... The, it, Bangbros isn't the only company under that umbrella. It's, it's a very, it's a very wide reach.

Steven Bartlett 41:44 The peak of your anxiety, 2019, 2020. If I was a fly on the wall inside your, your apartment, wherever you were living back then, what would I have seen, what would I have observed?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 41:55 Didn't shower, didn't brush my teeth, didn't eat, didn't leave my bed, was crying all the time. Anytime I would open my phone, I felt, I felt like, I felt like a prisoner in my own body and in the world more so, not just in my own body, because I, I didn't ... I, I couldn't scream loud enough. There's nothing I could do to make it go away or to make them stop. Uh, honestly, the worst part about it was I knew that if I, if I went on and actually spoke about how, how it, how much it impacted me, that's, that's what they would want. Th- that, that's, that's exactly what they would want. They were very annoyed that I started naming them by name, and that's when everything started. These individuals value their privacy more than anything in the world, and it's because of ...... all of the unethical and immoral things that they've done throughout their careers in this industry. So, they all go by aliases too. Being called out by their legal, government names was not something they took kindly to, and that is why they chose to release the video that the footage was corrupted of 10 years ago.

Steven Bartlett 43:17 That's, that was a pornographic video-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 43:19 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 43:19 ... they used? Okay, so they started releasing more videos-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 43:21 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 43:21 ... because she was speaking out against them. And they started doing a variety of other attacks, making, uh, like, mini-Instagram documentary-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 43:28 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 43:29 ... clips of you, which I th- I find, I mean, you, you would expect, like, a jealous, bitter ex to be doing something like that, maybe-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 43:34 That's exactly what they are.

Steven Bartlett 43:35 ... you know, not a corporation, but-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 43:37 That's exactly what they are, a jealous, bitter ex.

Steven Bartlett 43:40 (sighs) I look, I look at all the, the decisions I've made in my life, and I think about, you know, being 18 and deciding to do this or that, or 25 and doing this and fucking up at that. And you p- people look back and they say, "There's always a silver lining." Is there a silver lining?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 43:56 Yeah. (sighs) I'm really funny. Trauma makes you funny.

Steven Bartlett 44:00 (laughs)

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 44:02 Built character. No, of course there's a silver lining. I'm sitting in front of you today, happier than I've ever been. I've, I am not the sum of the things I've been through or the adversities I've faced. I'm not... The silver lining is it fucking happened. It's over with. It's not over with, actually. It's following me for the rest of my life, but I am no longer in the mental space that I was back then. So, it's over with for me.

Steven Bartlett 44:30 And you get to make your silver lining.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 44:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 44:32 And that's, uh, that's what I feel like you've done is you've made a silver lining 'cause there's clearly... You could've gone several ways.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 44:40 Y- yes, that's true.

Steven Bartlett 44:42 What are the ways you could've gone?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 44:44 I was acting on instinct. There wasn't, uh, a time when I sat down and thought, "What do I want with my life?" I a- I, I needed a job. So, I acted on instinct. I applied to things that I felt like I could do. I'm good at paperwork. I'm good at, I'm good at, um, just administrative things. I likes, I like being left alone. So, I didn't want a job where I was working with a... Like, I, I was always acting on instinct. There was never really a plan. What felt right? It felt right in the moment to get an office job. It felt right in the moment to leave that one and go to another one. It felt right in the moment to leave everything and move to Austin. It felt right in the moment in Austin to... Well, actually, I had a very... That was the first time in my life where I started forming a core group of friends and people who are still in my life to this day, um, and they were the ones who convinced me, not convinced me, but kind of encouraged me to go to therapy. (paper rustles)

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Steven Bartlett 47:33 (paper rustles) Depression, another word.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 47:35 (sighs)

Steven Bartlett 47:35 D- different to anxiety in many respects.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 47:37 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 47:37 People often characterize it with, like, thoughts of the past, and they think of anxiety as worries of the future. Um, depression's another word that I read a few times throughout your story. Um, again, is that something that's kind of been with you throughout life? Or is that, was that post-moving to Mai- Miami?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 47:55 It was really that 2019, 2020.

Steven Bartlett 47:57 Oh, really?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 47:58 Yeah. Yeah, um, I went on Lexapro. I went, uh, eh, like, I, that was when... I mean, maybe I was depressed, but it was never diagnosed. I had two therapy sessions a week and a psychiatrist, and I was on Lexapro. I was on Propran- Propranolol. I was on beta-blockers, everything for anxiety, depression, m- all of that. All of that was in, was in 2019, 2020, the, when, when everything started to kind of get rehashed, and I felt like (sighs) the anx- thank... I'm very, very grateful to be out of the depths of my depression. But, um, something that does keep me up at night anxiety-wise is where things are headed with AI and, um, deepfakes and things like that 'cause that feeling of...... of being violated all over again and having no control. Like, it- it's like trying to run in a dream. As hard as you, as you try, it's- it's impossible, and it's a very daunting feeling, and you feel claustrophobic, and you feel like you're trying to breathe underwater and all these really, really awful things that, that are out of your control, that's what, that's what that feels like. And I try not to think about it for too long, but ...

Steven Bartlett 49:20 The AI stuff feels like that and the deep fake stuff?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 49:22 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:23 Okay. Yeah. It's fucking terrifying.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 49:26 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:28 Were people worried about you in 2019? Did you have people around you that were worried about you at that point?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 49:32 I did. I did. I'm very grateful I did.

Steven Bartlett 49:35 'Cause I'm trying to think of this, this step people take when they go and have therapy or they go to the doctor and say, "Listen, something's wrong with me," you're at home, this stuff's happening online, this porn company are targeting you, what is the s- what is the, what was the catalyst in that moment to make you go, "Do you know what? I need to go get help"?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 49:51 Oh, I was still in therapy.

Steven Bartlett 49:53 In therapy, okay.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 49:53 Yeah, and my therapist said, "You need a psychiatrist."

Steven Bartlett 49:55 Really?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 49:56 Yeah. He said, "I, I'm d- like, you need a psychiatrist. I can't prescribe you antidepressants. You- you need, you need a psychiatrist. Here are some recommendations."

Steven Bartlett 50:08 Ag- again, so what's life like? I joined a TV show, so, uh, things changed for me. You know, people start stopping you in the street and coming up to you in the gym and stuff, and, you know, I l- you know, it comes with the territory of what I did. I was well-aware of what I was getting into. Also, I joined the TV show when I was, like, 28, 29, so you're kinda like, you're probably a bit more prepared mentally for things, and you understand the world a bit better, and you're not trying to impress people as much as I was when I was younger. But it was still an adjustment, to say the least.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 50:36 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 50:36 Um, what was life like for you that post-Miami period? You're now moving on with your life. You're, you're trying to, you know, this p- porn company come for you, what is life like day to day, y- when you go to the coffee shop?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 50:48 I'm kind of glad you asked that, 'cause it's a huge contrast to what it is now. Even though it's kind of still the same, I would get recognized and I would get come up to and I would get asked to h- like, take a photo with someone all the time, but my reaction to it is completely different than, than it is now. I would wanna crawl into a hole and hide away and be ashamed. I was, I, I was so embarrassed. I felt, like, a, like, a warm feeling in my stomach like I had just been punched or like I'd just found out I was being cheated on or something. Like, it's- it's just a very painful, visceral reaction to be recognized and to know what you're being recognized for. Um, and it wasn't until I started to accomplish other things and I started to be proud of things that I've, that I've done and things that I've kind of shifted and diverted into in my career. So, those first few months to a year in Austin, I felt very ... I had a lot of social anxiety and I didn't go out much, um, because I didn't want to be recognized. Um, I felt like I, I just didn't wanna be recognized. I didn't wanna be looked at, I didn't wanna be perceived, I didn't, I didn't wanna leave my house, none of that. But ...

Steven Bartlett 52:07 Is that a form of, like, self-hatred? 'Cause you're like <|agent|><|en|>

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 52:09 No, 'cause it-

Steven Bartlett 52:09 ... just looking at me.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 52:09 No, because it w- it was more so the people who were coming up to me, college guys, like, like men, you know? It- it- it- it- it just made me uncomfortable because I knew why they knew me. And it wasn't until I started accomplishing things that I was actually proud of that m- that changed. I didn't feel that same, like, gut-wrenching, visceral feeling of shame when I would hear the name Mia or, or get called in the street or anything like that. Like, I, the more I accomplished, the more proud I was of what I've built and what I've changed and, and all of these things that I've done, the more comfortable I got with being recognized, because inherently people were recognizing me for other things. Women started to recognize me. Uh, everything kind of shifted. The more that I do and continue to do, the more, the more, the more that changes. Like, I, I rarely get come, like, I get come up to more by fe- by, by women now than by men. And I love that.

Steven Bartlett 53:12 What was that path out of the ... there's a book I, from my psychiatrist I had on this podcast called The Path Out of the Jungle. For you, what was the, it's Path Through the Jungle, sorry, but what was the path out of the jungle for you, that 2019 depression period? Like, how did you, for people that might be in that situation right now where they're really struggling, what was, was it just time? Was it community support? Was it the medi- medication? How did you get out of that phase?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 53:35 Everything.

Steven Bartlett 53:35 Everything?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 53:36 All of that combined. All of that combined. Truly. I don't think I could've done it without (laughs) shout out to Lexapro, without the Lexapro, without my support system, without, without m- my job, without people in my job encouraging me to, to, to pursue what I wanna do and, and to, and to not let fear of, of having something taken away from me or, or having something ...

Steven Bartlett 54:03 You had that fear of having it taken away from you?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 54:05 Yeah, of course. Of course. They're constantly threatening me even using the name Mia Khalifa.

Steven Bartlett 54:10 They're threatening you using the name Mia Khalifa?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 54:12 They think they have ownership of it.

Steven Bartlett 54:16 Okay.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 54:17 Which they do not. It's my dog's name. And they tried to convince me not to use Khalifa, 'cause they said, "No one's gonna know how to spell it." But yeah, I, I, I'm constantly in fear of ... they're a billion-dollar corporation.

Steven Bartlett 54:31 Yes. Yeah.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 54:31 The amount of lawsuits that they field on a daily basis. They're being sued right now by, um, by a company that does MLB trading cards because they're trying to do trading cards of, of actresses.

Steven Bartlett 54:46 You, you, you were married around that time, right, 2019?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 54:49 Uh, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:49 A l- a lot of what I read said that that marriage had fallen apart because the attention you were getting was difficult for your partner.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 54:56 I don't know about that. He's also ...

Steven Bartlett 54:59 ... famous?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 55:00 No, n- well, he's, he's a very popular chef.

Steven Bartlett 55:02 Okay.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 55:03 Um, but no, that, that was more of irreconcilable differences. No, I'm just kidding.

Steven Bartlett 55:10 Yeah.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 55:10 Um, (laughs) it w- it was, it was a lo-... We, we were in therapy for a year.

Steven Bartlett 55:14 Okay.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 55:14 An entire year. We tried. I was... We were separated for three months. I lived at an Airbnb. I moved out of the house. Like, we, we tried. It was more so... It, it just very much came down to... We got married very... too early. We got married too soon, before we actually knew each other. We got married in the honeymoon phase and, um, we were just very different.

Steven Bartlett 55:37 TikTok.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 55:38 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 55:38 You've become a TikTok sensation.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 55:40 (sighs)

Steven Bartlett 55:41 I don't like to spend too much time on TikTok because, you know, I, uh, I'll end up not doing anything with my life if I spend too long on there, because it's really addictive. But I went through your TikToks. You're a comedian.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 55:51 Oh, my God. (laughs) The trauma?

Steven Bartlett 55:54 No, but... No, but you, you are. You're incredibly successful on TikTok. You've got-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 55:57 I, I think that... TikTok is my favorite app and I think that I'm very lucky that TikTok is just... It's wh- it's where I spend the most time. I, I, I kinda just get it. I get it. It was very easy for me. I love TikTok, so.

Steven Bartlett 56:08 Suits your personality.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 56:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 56:11 You've cultivated a group of people there, a huge group of people. Almost like 30 million people or something crazy, um, who love that, m- side of Sarah.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 56:19 Yeah. The women on, on, on my TikTok are amazing. I'm very, very grateful for the community of women that I found on there.

Steven Bartlett 56:29 (smacks lips) Y- You... A second ago, you said about 10 years' time, plans for 10 years' time. You said now you have an answer.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 56:34 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 56:35 What is the answer?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 56:37 (sighs) The answer is (sighs) two-car garage, decent backyard, um, three very successful, still operating companies that I'm very heavily involved in still. I don't plan on retiring anytime soon, and hopefully a kid on the way.

Steven Bartlett 57:00 Ooh.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 57:02 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 57:02 In order to have a kid... Now, there's a couple of routes to having a kid.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 57:05 That's not true. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 57:06 (laughs) In order to have a kid, you can adopt one, you can steal one, or you can have your own.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 57:12 (sighs)

Steven Bartlett 57:12 Um, they're all... You know, all of these paths... I mean, I'm sure there's... There might be a fourth path that I'm not thinking about.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 57:16 Yeah, I wouldn't mind stealing a four-year-old, someone who's already, like, into cartoons and stuff.

Steven Bartlett 57:21 (laughs) Okay.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 57:21 So maybe, maybe that's the route I go by, I, I go for.

Steven Bartlett 57:24 Are you, are you in a relationship now?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 57:25 No.

Steven Bartlett 57:25 You're not?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 57:26 No.

Steven Bartlett 57:26 You're single?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 57:26 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 57:27 How, how are you finding that? I talk a lot about, I guess, about

Steven Bartlett 57:30 relationships and how dating in the modern world is really, really tough.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 57:33 It is tough.

Steven Bartlett 57:34 It sucks, especially for a certain generation that I think got caught between, like, the digital world and, like, the analog world.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 57:38 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 57:39 Do you find it tough? Obviously, people know who you are. You're, you're famous. You're super famous. You've got, like, 16 million followers plus. Um, do you find it tough to date?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 57:48 Very. Very, but I'm also not trying. I've been a serial monogamist for a while. I got out of a long-term, long-ish term relationship a few months ago. Um, but yeah. It's difficult. It's difficult, but I also haven't tried, but I'm... I, I don't, I don't know what I'm expecting. I haven't gone into the dating world in maybe six years. I've been in long-term relationships.

Steven Bartlett 58:15 What are you l- what would make a great partner for Sarah? (smacks lips)

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 58:20 (sighs)

Steven Bartlett 58:20 What would they have to have? What would th- th- be the jigsaw shape of-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 58:22 Emotional intelligence and a good relationship with their therapist and with therapy in general. Um, someone who's constantly working on themselves and is self-aware and understands the ebbs and flows of life and emotions and how it's not always going to be even keel, how it'll oscillate. But oscillate doesn't necessarily mean go from good to toxic. It means go from good to needing a little more support than, than you normally have.

Steven Bartlett 58:53 Men are not necessarily the best at emotional intelligence, but I think-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 58:56 (laughs) I'm not ruling out women.

Steven Bartlett 58:57 Yeah. Good, good.

Steven Bartlett 58:59 And business. Three businesses. The business, the jewelry brand. Can you tell me all about your jewelry brand and, um, the inspiration for that and your vision for that?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 59:09 Um, I'm really, really excited to launch it. It's called Shaytan. It's... The inspiration is every woman who I've ever admired, every Arab girl who chooses yellow gold over white gold, every... Just women in general, huge inspiration behind it. Um, it's body jewelry for the most part, but it's also lifestyle. Um, it will launch imminently, and yeah.

Steven Bartlett 59:45 Why did you choose jewelry?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 59:46 Because I love it. I was, I was custom-making the things that I wanted that I couldn't find easily. Um, hand lariats and foot lariats and belly chains and bra chains and sternu-... Like, all, all, all of this stuff was extremely hard to find, so I was custom-making it and paying a lot for it. So I'm very excited to put out something that is extremely delicate and precious and beautiful but also affordable.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:16 You

Steven Bartlett 1:00:17 know? W- when you think about, like, the ingredient, ingredients list of your own happiness right now in your life, what is on that list of ingredients? What are the, like, factors that need to be present for you to feel, like, stable and, um, f- full?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:00:28 Mm. I would say 70% alone time.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:38 Interesting.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:00:39 20% time surrounded by people who energize and recharge me, and 10% just... 10% fuck it. 10% just if something feels right, do it, follow your instinct. But, like, I'm kind of scared of my instinct a little too sometimes, even though...... yeah, 10% just listen to your gut.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:07 And going back to the start of the conversation, this is because you feel closest to knowing who, who you are?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:01:12 Yeah. Yeah. The most secure in the decisions I make on a daily basis.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:18 And who are you?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:01:19 I'm Sarah. I'm Sarah Fucking Jo.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:24 And who's, who's Sarah Jo?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:01:25 Sarah is unapologetic and ... not fearless, pretty fearful, but I think that's a good thing. Cautious. Cautious and secure.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:38 Okay, so unapologetic. And then the second one was not fearless, pretty fearful.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:01:43 Yeah, but in a good way. Cautious. Cautious.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:45 Cautious, okay.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:01:45 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:47 The unapologetic part.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:01:48 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:49 I get that. I sense that from you. Where did that come from?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:01:54 Rihanna.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:56 (laughs) Rihanna. No, no really. Like that came from Rihanna?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:01:59 Oh, absolutely yeah. Yeah. She has a whole album called Unapologetic and that, that is what I base my, my personality off of.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:10 Why?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:02:11 What do you mean why?

Steven Bartlett 1:02:12 Why, why did you choose to base ... there's so many different albums Rihanna's made or ?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:02:14 Oh that's, that's, that's the one that just exu- that's the one that kind of ... that was her, that was her shift also. That was her moment of, "Now I know who I am and I'm unapologetic about it. It might not be the bubble gum pop girl you thought I was or wanted me to be, this is who I am and this is the person who's not going anywhere."

Steven Bartlett 1:02:34 Is that a stark contrast from the Sarah I would've met, had I met you at like 18? Like I wanna ... if I like put that 18 year old Sarah there and I had them both side-by-side, I'm guessing Sarah 18 wouldn't be un- un- unapologetic.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:02:48 No.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:49 What ... Can you describe how her, her, her vibe would've been sat here today?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:02:53 Shriveled, insecure-

Steven Bartlett 1:02:54 Oh really?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:02:54 ... quiet probably or too loud just because insecurity screams. Not, not someone ... well actually no, that is someone who I would wanna be around because I, I feel empathy for her. And I forgive her.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:08 And the journey to Unapologetic was from what I've garnered so far based on the evidence you got from going out and doing things and proving shit to yourself?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:03:16 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:17 That's so important. I was gonna say this at the start of the conversation, this idea of confidence. People don't know how you- you said it like, "How the fuck do you get confidence? Like where does it come from? How do I buy one?" But y- from your own experiences, it's the evidence you gain from doing shit that changes your beliefs.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:03:30 Exactly.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:31 It's all evidence.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:03:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:32 You have evidence for ... Like low confidence is negative evidence.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:03:36 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:36 And the confidence you've got over the last couple of years is from doing really cool shit.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:03:40 Yeah. Exactly.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:44 We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:03:47 Okay.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:48 And they leave it written in this diary.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:03:49 Oh.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:50 Aristotle said, "Give me the child at seven and I'll show you the man." Or woman. Is it true that the first seven years of your life make you who you are?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:04:07 I think they have a huge impact just s- psychology speaking. It's like psychologically I think those are very formative years. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:16 Seven years old you could've, um, whispered some words into Sarah's ear. What would those words have been?

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:04:23 You're amazing. You're enough. You're perfect.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:27 Thank you so much, ma'am.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:04:27 Thank you.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:28 Sarah.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:04:29 Yeah. That's okay.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:30 Learning about your story and, and really like the reaction to ev- to the mistakes you made when you were younger is, um, incredibly inspiring for me because we all make d- we all h- make decisions, especially in our younger years, that you know, through naivety or other, or coercion or whatever it might be, we're not necessarily, you know, we wouldn't make those decisions again. And the way you've responded to that and built the life that you're building now off the back of that, and the audience you've built around TikTok and social media, um, around your personality and your humor is incredibly h- hope-inspiring. It gives me a lot of hope that regardless if, you know, the, the, the steps I make in my life, they will be, um, there's a way through. There's a-

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:05:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:10 ... a way through the jungle. And that's what your story represents to me. It's an incredibly inspiring one and you're, um, yeah, you're an, an inspiration for that very reason.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:05:18 Thank you.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:18 So thank you.

Sarah Joe Chamoun (Mia Khalifa) 1:05:19 Thank you. I appreciate that. (upbeat music)

Steven Bartlett 1:05:24 As you might know, this podcast is now sponsored by the incredible Airbnb. And Airbnb have saved me many, many times whenever I'm working away or on business trips or on holidays. But have you ever thought about whether your home could be an Airbnb when you're away on business or on holiday? Or even just a part of your home? Let me explain. Maybe your roommate is moving out and you're thinking about what to do with the extra space. Or maybe you have a spare bedroom that you've never used. You could Airbnb it and make some extra cash for bills or to pay for anything in your life, holidays, or just for some extra money. I've Airbnbed my place previously and honestly the process couldn't have been easier. It's something I'd highly recommend you all to check out. Your extra room, that extra space you have in your house, you might be surprised how much it's worth. I was surprised how much it was worth. And you can find out how much it's worth by going to airbnb.co.uk/host. That's airbnb.co.uk/host. Check it out. (upbeat music) You got to the end of this podcast. Whenever someone gets to the end of this podcast, I feel like I owe them a greater debt of gratitude because that means you listened to the whole thing, and hopefully that suggests that you enjoyed it. If you are at the end and you enjoyed this podcast, could you do me a little bit of a favor and hit that subscribe button? That's one of the clearest indicators we have that this episode was a good episode and we look at that on all of the episodes to see which episodes generated the most subscribers. Thank you so much and I'll see you again next time.