Michelle Obama & Craig Robinson: Belonging is a scam

1. 0:00 – 2:01

   Intro

   1. MOMichelle Obama0:00

      People in power who haven't understood their why can lead us down some dark tunnels. We are in a really tough time right now.

   2. CRCraig Robinson0:09

      The one and only Michelle Obama...

   3. SBSteven Bartlett0:11

      The former First Lady...

   4. MOMichelle Obama0:12

      And her brother, Craig Robinson, are sharing their rare perspectives into a world very few ever get to see. I grew up in a predominantly Black neighborhood, and we were taught foundational values so that we could function in our society. But growing up, I was just checking boxes, and then I met Barack Obama. He showed up in my life as the opposite of a box checker.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett0:37

      You rejected him at first, right?

   6. MOMichelle Obama0:38

      Yeah. I was even trying to introduce him to some of my friends. He said, "Well, why don't we go out?"

   7. SBSteven Bartlett0:43

      And what did you think of him?

   8. CRCraig Robinson0:44

      Honestly, I was like, "He may last two months." I remember my mom saying, "Well, at least he's tall."

   9. (laughs)

   10. (laughs)

   11. MOMichelle Obama0:52

       But the next thing you know, we were on our way to building our lives together. And my initial reaction was, "Don't do this." There'd be death threats. How do you raise kids in the White House? How would we afford it?

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:05

       Did you ask for any promises if he were to win?

   13. MOMichelle Obama1:09

       I didn't know what that journey was gonna be and what I would need to negotiate for myself. And if I had known what I know now, I should have said...

   14. SBSteven Bartlett1:19

       Michelle, I was watching the coverage of your decision-

   15. MOMichelle Obama1:21

       Yeah.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett1:21

       ... to not go to Trump's inauguration. What was the thinking behind that?

   17. MOMichelle Obama1:26

       The truth was, is that...

   18. SBSteven Bartlett1:29

       This has always blown my mind a little bit, 53% of you that listen to this show regularly haven't yet subscribed to the show. So could I ask you for a favor before we start? If you like the show, and you like what we do here, and you wanna support us, the free simple way that you can do just that is by hitting the subscribe button. And my commitment to you is, if you do that, that I'll do everything in my power, me and my team, to make sure that this show is better for you every single week. We'll listen to your feedback, we'll find the guests that you want me to speak to, and we'll continue to do what we do. Thank you so much.

2. 2:01 – 4:38

   Michelle and Craig's Childhood

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:01

      Michelle, Craig, what do I need to know about your earliest context to understand the adults? And I use that word intentionally because I know that's what your, your parents were intent on raising, the adults that are in front of me today.

   2. MOMichelle Obama2:16

      Mm.

   3. CRCraig Robinson2:19

      Wow, that's-

   4. MOMichelle Obama2:20

      It starts at 7436 South Euclid, you know, the, the, the hub of it all. That was th- the home that we grew up in, on the South Side of Chicago. And it was a teeny, tiny house. Uh, we lived, uh, above our Aunt Robbie. It was a single family home, a bungalow, on the South Side of Chicago. And our Aunt Robbie was married to, uh, her husband, Terry, and they owned the home. Uh, and they had a little bitty, if, almost one bedroom, two bedroom apartment over the home, so it was a two-family home. We were surrounded by extended family. That community of people that you, y- y- probably 'cause people didn't have a lot of resources, people lived with each other. You know, you shared spaces, you lived next to one another, and we lived with our great aunt because it helped our parents save some money and get us in a better neighborhood. Because my father was a city worker, he was a working class guy, didn't have a college education, and working for the city was a really stable job because it gave you benefits and some stability, and my mom wanted to stay home, uh, and, and raise kids. So in order to save that kind of money, we banned together and lived with our Aunt Robbie. And all of the adventures and the lessons learned, when I think about my foundational values, that house really, and all of the experiences and conversations, the beginning of my kitchen table happened on 74th and Euclid. And I, I talk about it because you'd think it was a palace, but this was a little home. We shared a bedroom most of our lives, because there w- just wasn't room for us to each have our own room. And we shared the space, one bathroom. There was no dining room, there was just a kitchen.

   5. CRCraig Robinson4:18

      And th- the way it was set up, how it was supposed to be used, it was a one bedroom apartment. And the living room was the room that we shared as a bedroom, and the one bedroom it had was where my mom and dad lived. And the whole thing-

   6. MOMichelle Obama4:34

      We slept in.

   7. CRCraig Robinson4:34

      ... could've been 700 square feet.

   8. MOMichelle Obama4:37

      Yeah. Yeah.

3. 4:38 – 8:35

   Values Learned from Their Parents

   1. MOMichelle Obama4:38

   2. SBSteven Bartlett4:38

      You talked about foundational values.

   3. MOMichelle Obama4:40

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett4:40

      What were those foundational values that you learned in that location, and how did your parents teach you those foundational values? And I ask that with great curiosity because, as I read through both of your books, there are moments in your career where, as adults in your late 20s, where those values show up so clearly-

   5. MOMichelle Obama4:59

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett4:59

      ... over and over and over again. And I'm, I was, as I was reading I was thinking, "Gosh, what did their parents do-

   7. MOMichelle Obama5:04

      Mm-hmm.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett5:05

      ... to orientate them in such a g- a clear way?" Where both, at key moments in both of your careers, you make decisions not to get a pay rise-

   9. MOMichelle Obama5:13

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett5:13

       ... or not to go for the thing that is higher status, and to do something else, either something that's aligned with your passions and hobbies or something that's in service of others.

   11. MOMichelle Obama5:22

       Mm-hmm.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett5:22

       So w- what were those values and how did your parents instill those in you?

   13. MOMichelle Obama5:28

       I, I think our parents modeled it. I mean, if I were to think of one, uh, uh, one word that would describe my father, he was just a decent man. Decent, honest, hardworking, and loyal, trustworthy. I mean, these were the kind of things that we talked about. We, we didn't have material stuff. He couldn't provide that, but he provided a set of lessons about what it meant to be a good friend. Um, he was the elder in his family, uh, the oldest of, what, five, and my mom was the middle child. And, uh, he...He took care of everyone.

   14. CRCraig Robinson6:09

       Mm-hmm.

   15. MOMichelle Obama6:09

       Um, even though he had multiple sclerosis and walked with, uh, uh, assistance, he had a cane when we were younger. I never knew my father to walk without the assistance of a cane, and MS was a progressive disease, so over the course of his life, he just got weaker and weaker and weaker. But he was the strongest person in our orbit with everyone.

   16. CRCraig Robinson6:32

       Never took a sick day.

   17. MOMichelle Obama6:33

       Never took a sick day. He was the father that fathered all the other kids in the neighborhood, you know? So when Craig was playing basketball, he was the person that was at most of the practices if he could be, if his shift allowed. He was the dad in the neighborhood where a lot of kids-

   18. CRCraig Robinson6:51

       Wow.

   19. MOMichelle Obama6:51

       ... didn't have those kind of role models. Um, and even though we didn't have a lot, y- you know, there was n- there was never a time when my father wasn't gonna help somebody. So I, you know, I guess those values where y- you, you take care of people, you know, money doesn't really matter. That's not the thing that makes you great. It's how you show up in the world. It's your word. It's, um, you know, how you treat other people.

   20. CRCraig Robinson7:20

       To Misha's point, he was the guy who was giving kids rides to practice and to games because their parents couldn't go, and he would be sharing stories, sharing his values. It was just embedded in his being to pass on knowledge that he had. And, and with regard to my mom, you know, my mom, I think is where I, at least where I get my philanthropic gene from. Not with money 'cause we didn't have any-

   21. MOMichelle Obama7:52

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CRCraig Robinson7:52

       ... but with our time and with our resource, whatever resources we had. What was behind all of this was unconditional love.

   23. Mm-hmm. It's a tool in the toolbox that you sometimes don't even realize is there-

   24. MOMichelle Obama8:05

       Yeah.

   25. CRCraig Robinson8:05

       ... if you're privileged enough to.

   26. MOMichelle Obama8:06

       Mm-hmm.

   27. CRCraig Robinson8:07

       Right.

   28. MOMichelle Obama8:07

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CRCraig Robinson8:07

       Because it's that tectonic plate that sits underneath you that-

   30. MOMichelle Obama8:10

       Yeah.
4. 8:35 – 12:06

   Michelle Skipping Second Grade

   1. MOMichelle Obama8:35

      us with their problems, but not be the ones that were gonna solve it. And I, and this came in very handy when you're a kid in public school because, you know, in public school south side of Chicago, teaching was kind of uneven, you know? One year you'd get a teacher that cared and, and invested in the kids. Another grade you'd have a teacher that didn't care. And I remember distinctly I started second grade and I went to a classroom that was completely chaotic. The teacher clearly didn't wanna be there, and I knew this in second grade, and there was no order. We didn't have homework. We weren't doing regular lessons, and I knew that something was wrong. And I would come home at lunch and I'd complain about, "We, nothing happened today at school." You know? And, "I'm, I don't know what second grade is supposed to be, but I don't feel like I'm getting what I need to get out of second grade." It took a month of coming home and complaining, and my mom was quietly listening, but she wasn't just listening. She was plotting, and it was a month in, she went up to the school, watched herself and saw that this teacher not only wasn't teaching, but it had appeared that she didn't even like kids. So she went to the principal's office and read them the Riot Act. I don't know what she said or what she did, but three of us were pulled out of the class for testing, and I just remember I just didn't have to go into that class. And I spent a couple of weeks taking some specialized tests. We were just doing bubble tests, didn't know what it was. Um, got the results, and the results proved that I could skip second grade, and it was a lifesaver for me. But I'll never forget, my mom finally did... I would hear her complaining to my dad, "This teacher, you know, these teachers who don't care about these kids," she had gotten us out, but she was worried about the kids who were stuck in that second grade class-

   2. CRCraig Robinson10:34

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MOMichelle Obama10:34

      ... who didn't have parents who were their advocates, who, you know, were gonna spend probably a wasted year in second grade missing whatever they were gonna miss. But that was one of those instances where I knew that if m- a cry for help from me was heard by my mother and acted upon, she could have been one of those mothers who said, "Well, just, you know, life is life. Just get it together." But she knew there was something different in what I wanted and what I needed, and she, you know, she made it happen.

   4. CRCraig Robinson11:04

      Does that teach you to respond to others who cry for that help?

   5. MOMichelle Obama11:08

      Uh, probably does. I mean, I still think about the kids who were left behind. I mean, there's just something that, that really touches me about kids who are as bright as we are because we grew up with them, you know? My mother saw them, uh, and the only difference between me and them was that they had a mother that cared. And a lot of their lives look totally different from ours because of that. And I find myself being that advocate for those kids, those, the, the kids who were underestimated and under-supported, and that turns out to be kids, most kids all over the world. So I do find that that moment for me was a defining in, in a pretty fundamental way-

   6. CRCraig Robinson11:58

      Mm-hmm.

   7. MOMichelle Obama11:58

      ... about how I, how I fight for kids in the way that I saw my mom fight for me.

5. 12:06 – 15:09

   The Role of Race in Their Childhood

   1. CRCraig Robinson12:06

      Race. One of the, um, startling things were these two photos.

   2. MOMichelle Obama12:10

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   3. CRCraig Robinson12:11

      Mainly because I think it's this way around, but, um-

   4. MOMichelle Obama12:14

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett12:16

      This is, I believe, what, second grade or something?

   6. MOMichelle Obama12:17

      That was first grade.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett12:18

      First grade, and then this is seventh-

   8. MOMichelle Obama12:20

      Eighth-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett12:20

      ... seventh grade?

   10. MOMichelle Obama12:21

       That was eighth, seventh or eighth grade, yeah, yeah.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett12:24

       There's a lot less white people-

   12. MOMichelle Obama12:25

       Mm-hmm.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett12:25

       ... in the second photo, which means that, which assumes that white people started leaving your school.

   14. MOMichelle Obama12:31

       Oh, absolutely.

   15. CRCraig Robinson12:32

       Oh, they're leaving the neighborhood, leaving the, the whole of South Shore.

   16. MOMichelle Obama12:35

       Yeah.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett12:36

       My, my question really is about what role did race play in your childhood? Because y- I think about my own childhood and it's quite a prominent persuasive force in who I became-

   18. MOMichelle Obama12:44

       Mm-hmm.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett12:45

       ... and what I thought about the world, and really what I thought about myself.

   20. MOMichelle Obama12:48

       Mm-hmm.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett12:48

       So race is an issue as young people in Chicago. What role did it play?

   22. MOMichelle Obama12:55

       Uh, I think there was a lot of race pride in our family. Um, there was this feeling, uh, this understanding that, um, uh, because of people's prejudice, there would be a lot of white people that would underestimate you, that would mistreat you, that would assume things about you. Our family, our entire family on both sides, really smart, talented, gifted people. To have a family that big and to ha- and, and, but all working class people, right? So we lived among sort of real regular excellence, you know?

   23. SBSteven Bartlett13:33

       Mm-hmm.

   24. MOMichelle Obama13:33

       I mean, people who were teachers and who were, uh, who were engineers. All of our cousins were people who were expected do, to do well in school. So we were taught, like, no one's better, smarter than you, you know? You're capable. My father was that voice for a lot of our cousins if they didn't have that kind of energy in their lives. It was always like, "You got this, and you know what you're doing." So in our home, there was race pride. But when you, you know, live in a, uh, w- when we moved into South Shore, into Robbie's house, our Aunt Robbie's house, most of my neighborhood friends were white kids. Um, Rachel Demsey and Susan Yacker and, uh, Soph- Sophinot Consopon, who was a Korean girl, because we lived by a hospital and her mother was a nurse. So it was a very mixed... The, the Stewarts who were, you know, they, they were a Black family but could pass for white. I mean, it was just sort of some of everyone in-

   25. SBSteven Bartlett14:35

       Mm-hmm.

   26. MOMichelle Obama14:36

       ... the neighborhood. Ms. Mason, who was the little old white lady across the street.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett14:41

       Mm-hmm.

   28. MOMichelle Obama14:41

       And our neighbors were the Mendozas, the Mexicans. Um, you know, it was sort of everywhere all around us. And everyone got along. Neighbors knew one another. We played with each other. I went to Rachel's house and, for lunch, and you know, but then one year, it was like the lights went off for the white people and they were gone without a trace, you know?

   29. SBSteven Bartlett15:05

       They call this white flight.

   30. CRCraig Robinson15:06

       Yeah.
6. 15:09 – 16:50

   What "White Flight" Means

   1. MOMichelle Obama15:09

   2. CRCraig Robinson15:09

      Yeah. Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett15:10

      White flight was-

   4. MOMichelle Obama15:10

      And so you-

   5. SBSteven Bartlett15:11

      For anyone that doesn't have context on white flight, what is, what does that...

   6. MOMichelle Obama15:13

      It's, it's the sociological occurrence (laughs) of what happens in communities when Black people sort of start making their way up socioeconomically and can buy homes or rent homes in neighborhoods that are predominantly white. So instead of, um, white people accepting it, they sell their homes en masse. There's a sort of undercurrent of, "We better get out because these Black families coming in are gonna ruin the neighborhood and bring down property values, so you better sell now and go, go further south into the southern suburbs." And so when you're young, you, you kinda know something is going on, you know? It's not like we were sitting around the kitchen table talking about white flight.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett15:57

      Mm-hmm.

   8. MOMichelle Obama15:57

      But what you do know and you take in as a child is, like, these people are running from us? (laughs) You know? It's like, my dad, who is this, you know, am- amazingly kind and generous person who would, would've been good for a lot of these people's kids, these white folks' kids to get to know and be around, us who turned out to be who we were and we were always gonna be that, you're running for uh, from us? Well, our feeling was like, "Well, how stupid is racism? And how stupid are you for not really looking and getting to know?" Uh, so, so race to me in, in, in my household was just a dumb manifestation of ignorant people. But we were taught to keep moving

7. 16:50 – 20:45

   Coping with Racism

   1. MOMichelle Obama16:50

      through it.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett16:51

      How do you stop it getting to you? One of the remarkable things I noticed even when we spent some time together yesterday was there is no apparent bitterness. And there's... One would say that there's reason to be-

   3. MOMichelle Obama17:04

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett17:04

      ... because when you're so powerful and so prominent and so well-known, you're exposed to everything. And going through that experience in those early years and then going through the, everything that happened thereafter, there doesn't appear to be any bitterness. There doesn't appear to be any chip on the shoulder, any anger.

   5. CRCraig Robinson17:19

      Yeah.

   6. MOMichelle Obama17:20

      Sometimes there is. (laughs)

   7. SBSteven Bartlett17:21

      (laughs)

   8. CRCraig Robinson17:21

      Yeah. We just don't show it. We just don't show it.

   9. MOMichelle Obama17:24

      (laughs)

   10. CRCraig Robinson17:24

       But I, I will say, at least from my standpoint, Mom and Dad, but Mom especially, she, she taught us empathy, almost to a fault, right? So she always said, remember how she always said-

   11. MOMichelle Obama17:44

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CRCraig Robinson17:44

       ... "Put yourself in the other person's shoes." And she would always say, "You never know what's going on in someone else's home."

   13. SBSteven Bartlett17:51

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CRCraig Robinson17:52

       And so I always approached negativity toward me with empathy. That was the first thing. And-

   15. MOMichelle Obama18:02

       It's like, "Oh, what's, what's, what happened to you?"

   16. CRCraig Robinson18:03

       What happened to you that made you so-

   17. MOMichelle Obama18:06

       Yeah.

   18. CRCraig Robinson18:06

       ... mean-

   19. MOMichelle Obama18:07

       Yeah.

   20. CRCraig Robinson18:07

       ... and evil? The other thing that our parents were really big on was, "Do not care what anybody else who's not sitting at this table thinks."

   21. MOMichelle Obama18:20

       Mm.

   22. CRCraig Robinson18:21

       If we ever said somebody said something and it affected the way we behaved, that's when you saw anger from my parents. I mean, it-

   23. MOMichelle Obama18:30

       That's when you'd get into trouble.

   24. CRCraig Robinson18:31

       You got in trouble with my parents-

   25. MOMichelle Obama18:33

       Yeah.

   26. CRCraig Robinson18:33

       ... when that... I mean, it was crack back right away.

   27. MOMichelle Obama18:36

       Mm-hmm.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett18:36

       What would they say back?

   29. CRCraig Robinson18:37

       They, they would be like, "So you're gonna tell... You're telling me that what whoever this is over here said is more important to you than what you hear around this table? Then you can go live with so-and-so."

   30. SBSteven Bartlett18:51

       (laughs)
8. 20:45 – 26:23

   Overcoming Being Underestimated

   1. SBSteven Bartlett20:45

      underestimated.

   2. MOMichelle Obama20:46

      Mm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett20:46

      It's a word that I saw throughout your book and it's a word you, you mentioned a second ago. You knew you were going into an underestimated world, if I can call it that.

   4. MOMichelle Obama20:55

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett20:55

      A world that was gonna underestimate you because of your race and, and things like that. But it's so clear to me that you had your shoulders back regardless.

   6. MOMichelle Obama21:03

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett21:04

      And I, I spoke to Valerie.

   8. MOMichelle Obama21:06

      Mm.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett21:06

      Do you know Valerie?

   10. MOMichelle Obama21:07

       Oh, yeah. Yeah.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett21:07

       Of course you know Valerie.

   12. MOMichelle Obama21:08

       (laughs)

   13. CRCraig Robinson21:08

       (laughs)

   14. SBSteven Bartlett21:08

       You worked with Valerie for many decades, didn't you? Um, she was a, sort of an early mentor figure in your life, Michelle.

   15. MOMichelle Obama21:13

       Yes, she was.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett21:14

       And she actually wrote me a letter about you. She describes that she's never met someone in her life that was so clear-

   17. MOMichelle Obama21:21

       Mm-hmm.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett21:21

       ... on what they wanted to achieve in the world in terms of the social good and the impact they wanted to have but was so unbelievably confident and high conviction.

   19. MOMichelle Obama21:29

       Mm-hmm.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett21:29

       And when I think about-

   21. MOMichelle Obama21:30

       Mm-hmm.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett21:30

       ... when you went to Harvard and studied law, there was, what, 30% of the people attending were, were women and then a tinier percentage were, were Black women.

   23. MOMichelle Obama21:39

       Mm-hmm.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett21:40

       And you were aware, again, of being underestimated.

   25. MOMichelle Obama21:42

       Yeah.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett21:42

       But again, shoulders back it seemed.

   27. MOMichelle Obama21:43

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett21:44

       Where does that come from in you?

   29. MOMichelle Obama21:46

       Oof. Um, y- uh, uh, living through the incorrectness of that, (laughs) uh, of that, uh, underestimation, right? First of all, I grew up, uh, you know, fortunately in a predominantly Black neighborhood after white flight happened where, um, everyone assumed I was smart, right? I grew up as the, the salutatorian in my grammar school. I went to a top high school. I... You know, so y- I had the f- the fortune of growing up in a validating Black environment, you know, which is, you know, we talk about that a lot with Black students, whether they should be going to HBCUs and what happens when you get pulled out into a mixed environment where you are so underestimated so early. You know, you, you start... We talked about the messages that you start telling yourself. I didn't have that because when we were young, you know, uh, my mentors, my teachers, the coaches, my dance teachers, they were all people who if I made a mistake or if they, um, doubted me, it was because... Not because of my race. It was because they, I disappointed somebody in some other way, right? So y- by the time I hit Princeton, thankfully, I had enough internal data that I could do a lot of things, that I was better, smarter, sharper than they would give me credit for. And then it was confirmed (laughs) when I walked onto Princeton's campus as an undergrad, feeling a little intimidated because it was an Ivy League school and I wasn't a great test taker although I was an outstanding student. I wasn't a standardized, good standardized test taker. All those numbers said that I shouldn't do well at Princeton, um, and so I came in as an affirmative action kid, sort of feeling like maybe I don't belong in these ivory towers and maybe these kids coming from these other schools are s- really so much smarter and better than I am. And then I sat on that campus and I looked around and I was like, "Oh my God. Well, there's all kinds of affirmative action that, uh, they never talk about." You know, there's wealth and legacy. Uh, there, there's athletic, uh, affirmative action. There were a lot of kids that were on that campus, and as I learned, continue to gain access to these seats of power that have nothing to do with their raw academic ability. There's sh- there, there are a lot of bright kids who go to these schools but there are a lot of bright kids whose parents get them into these schools. And when I got on campus and I came out of my first semester with straight As, I was like, "Well, what's the... What are you talking about? What, what are you... Who are you?"Why are you trying to mess with my head in this way when you guys are, uh, you, you're not even working as hard as me. But that was, it was infuriating but it was freeing because I was like, "I get it now. This is, you're just trying to get into my head. You're scared of me." You know, "You don't want me competing with you." And I think it was at that, that period going to one of the top schools that I was like, "I'm done. I am done worrying about whether I belong here. You know, this is a scam." (laughs) Um, so that, I think that really, I came out of Princeton just feeling like, rah, you know? Let me at 'em, you know? You, you know, for- forget all this stuff and now I'm trying to tell other kids that. It's like I'm coming down from the mountaintop with the, with the tablet of truth and going, "Do not let these people scam you. This is all a racket."

   30. SBSteven Bartlett25:38

       What's the scam?
9. 26:23 – 30:10

   Michelle's Search for Identity

   1. MOMichelle Obama26:23

   2. SBSteven Bartlett26:23

      The journey you've both been on is, is really remarkable for so many reasons, but it's also remarkable for the pivots along the way.

   3. MOMichelle Obama26:30

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett26:30

      And, um, I was reading about a bit of a, an identity crisis that you had when you were 27, 28 years old, uh, Michelle.

   5. MOMichelle Obama26:37

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett26:37

      When you were st- you were a lawyer?

   7. MOMichelle Obama26:39

      I was a lawyer, yeah, yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett26:40

      At, um, Sidley & Austin.

   9. MOMichelle Obama26:41

      Yes, beautiful high paid corporate attorney, uh, that allowed me to buy a nice Saab and-

   10. SBSteven Bartlett26:49

       (laughs) Saab-driving attorney.

   11. MOMichelle Obama26:50

       Driving attorney, uh, first job, first real job I'd had right out of, uh, uh, Harvard, um, because that's what you did. You know, after you went, go to law school, top school, you're recruited by the top firms in the country and they offer you exorbitant salaries, so at that age, as I started as a first-year associate, I was making more than my parents made combined, which seemed like something you didn't turn down.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett27:16

       Yeah.

   13. MOMichelle Obama27:16

       You know? If you have the opportunity to do that, it's like, "Well, yeah, sure, I'm gonna work for a firm, firm." But that's what I was really doing all my life. I was box checking. I was just, because I was a good student and I could do certain things, that's what I did, you know? I sort of understood that there was a formula. Be a good student, show up, do the work, check. Got that. Get good grades, go to a competitive high school, went to a magnet high school, was the s- class treasurer, top of the class, check, got it. I, 'cause I can do this. Da, da, da, I'm just marching through life, check, check, check. Apply to a top college, um, got into Princeton. Right, I'm, I'm in, graduated top of the class, go to law school. Why? I don't know. There wasn't really a thought to why I went to law school. It was just I don't know what I'm gonna do after graduate school, not gonna be a doctor because I don't like science or math. (laughs)

   14. SBSteven Bartlett28:10

       (laughs)

   15. MOMichelle Obama28:10

       I like to talk, I like to argue and so why not go to law school? So I apply to Harvard, get in. W- well, you go to Harvard. You know, tha- that was just, that was my thought process. There wasn't a, there wasn't purpose, there wasn't what do I care about. I didn't know what being a corporate lawyer meant. I was just checking boxes until I became a lawyer and, and, and a lot of stuff happened in that year besides me just joining, uh, Sidley & Austin in that period of time. We lost our father. Um, he died f- very suddenly. Um, uh, um, one of my best friends from, from college, uh, Suzanne, um, died of, uh, lymphoma and it was sudden. She was diagnosed in December and she died in May. Really the first time in my life where people that weren't expected to die died. You know, we had lost grandparents and great-grandparents and, and I- I was really having kind of an existential crisis sitting on the 47th floor of my, in my beautiful office with a secretary and a Saab in the garage thinking, "Why me? Why am I here rather than Suzanne?" Because she was, th- that friend was also the dreamer, the person who wasn't box checking. She went to Princeton, but she traveled the world. She didn't go to business school right away. And I always thought, "Uh, you gotta get your life together. You gotta be on a path."

   16. SBSteven Bartlett29:43

       Mm-hmm.

   17. MOMichelle Obama29:44

       And I thought, "Thank God she didn't do that." Because she didn't know she was gonna die, but instead of sitting in some office building, she was living life and trying on new things and I realized I hadn't done that for myself. Uh, I, all I was doing was following a game plan. I wasn't trying to figure out my purpose. And at the same time, I met Barack Obama. He

10. 30:10 – 31:49

    Meeting Barack

    1. MOMichelle Obama30:10

       showed up in my life as the opposite of a box checker, but somebody I describe in, in my book as an ultimate swerver. He did nothing by the book, but he was brilliant and interesting, you know, he didn't go to law school right away. He worked as a community organizer, he lived in different parts of the world. He was really trying to unpack life in a way that people in my generation weren't n- trying to do. You were just, you know, I was, I was with the Black bourgeois, right? And people were buying their homes and getting their cars together and trying to make partner at a firm. There was a very finite path and I hadn't explored anything else but that.And I thought, "I, I have to do something more before I settle on this." And I think Barack helped give me the courage, you know. He was the person in my ear that said, "W- why would you wanna just stop here and settle on this career when there's so much out there that you haven't tried?" Right? "You can do this." And I was like, "But I'm, I, I'm, I'm loaded down with debt." (laughs) And right around that time, we, we knew we were gonna be together, we knew we were gonna be engaged and he was like, "We'll get, we'll figure that out." He was like, "Don't, don't settle on becoming a partner at a law firm because of money," you know. It's like, "You need to see the world in a different way, and we'll figure this out together." And so I started swerving, um, I started trying other things in life and never looked back.

    2. CRCraig Robinson31:48

       Craig,

11. 31:49 – 33:38

    Introducing Barack to the Family

    1. CRCraig Robinson31:49

       when was the first time you heard that your li- little sister had met-

    2. MOMichelle Obama31:53

       (laughs)

    3. CRCraig Robinson31:53

       ... a, a guy called Mr. Obama?

    4. Well, she called the, called me up and said, "Hey, I met a guy, I wanna bring him by," and my mom, my dad, and I were sitting on our front porch and she pulls up in her nice OP 900 that you've heard a lot about.

    5. MOMichelle Obama32:10

       (laughs)

    6. CRCraig Robinson32:10

       And he gets out of the car and that was the first time we met him.

    7. And what did you think of him? Honestly.

    8. Honestly, I was like, "You know, he may last two months."

    9. (laughs)

    10. Because that's-

    11. (laughs) Because of, because of who?

    12. Because of, she'd be, he'd do something and be like, "Ah, that's a deal breaker," and he'd be on, on his way. And my mom, I remember my mom saying, "Well at least he's tall."

    13. (laughs)

    14. MOMichelle Obama32:36

        (laughs)

    15. CRCraig Robinson32:36

        We, we, we were just meeting him like we would meet somebody she, she'd bring by.

    16. MOMichelle Obama32:40

        But I never brought, I didn't bring a lot of boyfriends home.

    17. CRCraig Robinson32:41

        She never, she didn't bring a lot of guys by so-

    18. MOMichelle Obama32:43

        Yeah.

    19. CRCraig Robinson32:44

        ... that's why we thought it wouldn't last that long, 'cause she didn't bring too many guys by.

    20. MOMichelle Obama32:48

        Yeah, but why would you think it wouldn't last? The people that didn't last-

    21. CRCraig Robinson32:51

        'Cause-

    22. MOMichelle Obama32:51

        ... you didn't meet.

    23. CRCraig Robinson32:52

        N- n- but we heard about them.

    24. MOMichelle Obama32:54

        Yeah, but they-

    25. CRCraig Robinson32:55

        Yeah.

    26. MOMichelle Obama32:55

        ... you never met them.

    27. CRCraig Robinson32:56

        Yeah, well...

    28. (laughs)

    29. I have known my sister-

    30. MOMichelle Obama33:00

        That's one of those just sort of myths.
12. 33:38 – 37:18

    Why Michelle Initially Rejected Barack

    1. CRCraig Robinson33:38

       him at first, right?

    2. MOMichelle Obama33:39

       Yeah, yeah, because he, uh, Barack was, I, I was assigned to be his advisor. And that didn't mean I was his boss but every, I was a first year associate so they tried to pair first years sort of w- with new summer associates just to help get them acclimated and to kind of give them advice, just sort of mentor them for the summer. So I was his mento- mentor, right? So he comes in, he's late. So I'm thinking, "Okay, this guy's trifling," 'cause we didn't, in the Robinson family, we didn't do late. But he was raining and he didn't have an umbrella and so he was a little wet, um, so I was a little annoyed. But he, he stood up and, you know, he was tall and he was more handsome than his pictures. So I sort of thought, "Oh, okay. And not what I expected." So, um, I took him, uh, around the office, got him settled into his office. Took him out to lunch for the f- uh, that first day and we talked for like hours. And I knew that we were gonna be friends. He was smart, he was funny, had a good sense of humor, didn't take himself too seriously. So we, we clicked right off the bat. And over the course of the summer we actually became really good friends. I was even trying to introduce him to some of my friends, my girl friends saying, "There's this really cute guy who's my advisor," 'cause in my mind there wasn't any way that the, the f- the few Black, uh, asso- associates there who both went to Harvard were gonna date. In my mind I was like, "That's gonna be tacky. That's expected," right? And I was just sort of into doing what wasn't, not doing the expected, right? So my mind went somewhere else. I was like, "Ah, meet all these wonderful, beautiful women that I know," you know? Um, and after a couple of outings he said, "Well why don't we go out?" And I was like, "No way are we gonna go out. That's just not gonna happen. We're friends." And he was sort of like, "Huh, well why?" And he made the case. I said, "Well, you know, I don't think it looks right." And he said, "Who cares about how it looks?" And so he m- made his Barack Obama case over a couple of weeks and finally I was like, "Okay, we'll go out on one date." And so he planned a, uh, uh, after that it was over, it was a full day date where he pulled out all the stops. He, uh, we, um... I'm sure I picked him up because I had the nice car. And we went to the Art Institute where he showed me his suave, you know, view of art, and we had lunch at the museum and then we walked from the Art Institute down Michigan Avenue North. So we w- walked hand in hand, talked slowly and, you know, then we went and had dinner on top of Lakepoint Tower which was a beautiful view of the city. And then we, I think, ended the evening watching, going to Spike Lee's Do The Right Thing. So I mean, he had planned, you know, culture, you know, art, you know, sh- a lovely stroll. And slowly I was like, "Okay. Maybe I, I, you know, I spoke too soon," you know? "Maybe there is something more here." But yes, that's a long way of saying I did say no for a, a, a, a-... a, a good month or two. And, but by the end of the summer, we were, I think, it was that summer, by the end of the summer, I was introducing him to my, my family.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett37:17

       You both have that through line

13. 37:18 – 40:41

    Michelle's Career Change: Pursuing Joy

    1. SBSteven Bartlett37:18

       through your story of ticking the boxes.

    2. MOMichelle Obama37:20

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett37:21

       And then eventually, it's kind of what we were talking about yesterday-

    4. MOMichelle Obama37:23

       Yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett37:23

       ... on your show where-

    6. MOMichelle Obama37:24

       Mm-hmm.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett37:25

       ... if, you have sometimes, like, your preconception has to fail you.

    8. MOMichelle Obama37:29

       Yeah, that's right.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett37:30

       And you have to feel it for you to understand that maybe a pivot is needed in your life-

    10. MOMichelle Obama37:33

        Mm-hmm.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett37:33

        ... and it was the same when I was talking about my early journey. Um, Valerie, this very interesting-

    12. MOMichelle Obama37:38

        Mm-hmm.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett37:38

        ... character in your life. Th- this is the letter, I found it-

    14. MOMichelle Obama37:40

        Mm-hmm.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett37:41

        ... that Valerie wrote in to me, and she's talking about the, the pivot you made from being a lawyer to leaving that law firm and, and going in pursuit of something else.

    16. MOMichelle Obama37:49

        Mm-hmm.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett37:50

        What was the something else you were pursuing, before I read what Valerie said to me?

    18. MOMichelle Obama37:53

        I had no idea, um, because I didn't know anything. Uh, but I started with what I, I, I hadn't spent some time thinking, journaling about what did I care about?

    19. SBSteven Bartlett38:06

        What was the journal question?

    20. MOMichelle Obama38:07

        What brought me joy, you know? Of all the things that I was doing in my life, what was the thing, when I had it on my calendar that I would jump out of bed for, that would change my, the way I felt about the day? And it always had to do, it went back to mentoring. Because while I was doing all this stuff in law, uh, y- y- e- e- in, in my education, I was always finding ways to help younger kids understand how to get here. So it was the mentoring piece that Craig mentioned, you know, we never talked about that when we think about our, our parents. Um, that brought me absolute joy, you know? So I, I started really trying to listen to that self-interested part of me, you know? It's like, what made me happy? I never asked myself that. I alws- I always did what I thought I was supposed to do, and making money was one of the things that you were supposed to do if you-

    21. SBSteven Bartlett39:03

        Mm-hmm.

    22. MOMichelle Obama39:04

        ... were anyone who had an opportunity to get an Ivy League education. That was really all they talked about. That's all they showed you.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett39:10

        Yeah.

    24. MOMichelle Obama39:11

        You know, there wasn't a course or a major in helping people. Um, (laughs) you know? There wasn't a course on working with young kids, you know? There's no major for that, especially in the Ivy Leagues. So I know, I knew nothing about the nonprofit world. I knew nothing about NGOs.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett39:28

        Well, Valerie said-

    26. MOMichelle Obama39:30

        (laughs)

    27. SBSteven Bartlett39:30

        (laughs) She said the opposite. I'm joking, I'm joking. (laughs)

    28. NANarrator39:35

        (laughs)

    29. MOMichelle Obama39:35

        (laughs)

    30. SBSteven Bartlett39:35

        The day I met Michelle Obama changed my life forever. I'll never forget the moment she strolled into my office for an interview dressed in all black, hair elegantly pulled back. I was struck by the confidence that she carried herself with. She looked me right in the eye when she shook my hand. She was so poised and self-assured that it was hard to believe that she was only 27 years old. Michelle told me about her life, how she grew up in the South Side, how much love and support her parents poured into her and her brother, Craig. I asked her why she was considering public service rather than a much more lucrative path as a partner in a law firm, and she said that she had recently lost her dad and her best friend within a year, and their deaths were a painful reminder of the finiteness of life and the importance of making it purposeful, and how she knew that her abilities could lead her to make a difference in the lives of others, to serve and to give back to the city that she'd grown up. I was so in awe of her clarity of purpose, determination, and vulnerability that I offered her a job on the spot.
14. 40:41 – 44:46

    Relationship with Barack

    1. MOMichelle Obama40:41

       what did Valerie say?"

    2. SBSteven Bartlett40:42

       It was the same.

    3. NANarrator40:42

       (laughs)

    4. MOMichelle Obama40:42

       (laughs)

    5. SBSteven Bartlett40:43

       And w- wha- and at that time in your life, you know, those early 30s, what's, what's going on with, um, Mr. Obama?

    6. MOMichelle Obama40:48

       Oh, by then, he was, uh, he had written his book, because he, he was the president of the Harvard Law Review. The president of the Harvard Law Review is the top student at the top law school in the world, so, and he was the first black student to be elected, um, president of the Harvard Law Review, um, and that garnered a lot of attention for him. We were dating at the time, and so he got a book contract to write a story, Dreams from My Father, um, which I thought was, who writes a book at your age, right?

    7. SBSteven Bartlett41:23

       (laughs)

    8. NANarrator41:23

       (laughs)

    9. MOMichelle Obama41:23

       You know? But he was like, "Yeah, I might as well tell my story." And you know, and it was money, right? He got an advance, and we were engaged, so he was working on that project. But he was still trying to figure out what he was gonna do, and when you're the president of the Harvard Law Review, basically the world of law is open to you. The normal path is that you clerk for an appellate judge, um, for a year or two, and then you go on to, to clerk for the Supreme Court. Then, you know, you go on to do appellate work, you, you know, you, you have offers from every law firm. You are in demand, or you can do policy or whatever. That was the normal path. I was like, "So are you gonna clerk?" He was like, "Why would I clerk?" So he didn't work at any of the big firms. He went to a very small firm that was doing public interest work, so he wasn't making a lot of money. He was doing what I was doing. He was going the opposite d- uh, direction of all the things that was, were supposed to make us money. But he was like, "I, money isn't why I'm doing this. I'm trying to figure out how I can best use my skills to impact the most people." So he was doing 50 million jobs and we were cobbling together our payments for our student loans at the time, which were more than our mortgage. We had bought a condominium. We were on our way to building our lives together, but we were in deep debt. So while we were both pursuing our deep love of being in the community, we, our incomes were going in the opposite direction of where they were supposed to go. But we were in this together, you know? Politics hadn't really come into the fold yet. It wasn't a part of the conversation, but we were both kind of on these parallel paths kind of figuring out how do we take all these skills and all this energy-... and help people. I was working in the city, um, he was working everywhere else and writing a book, um, and we were just kind of, you know, we, we were sort of plotting ahead. (page turns)

    10. SBSteven Bartlett43:25

        Business takes me all over the world, and I travel about 50 weeks a year. And up until recently, one of the challenges I continued to face was staying connected as soon as I landed somewhere new. The reality is, I don't have time to wait around and sort out SIM cards while I'm on the go. So a few months ago, I tried something called Airlo for the first time, and they are now a sponsor of today's episode. Airlo is the world's first eSIM store. It's entirely digital, no SIM cards are needed at all, and you can keep the same phone number you have now. It means that you can get reliable data in over 200 destinations with instant access to a digital eSIM card with a click of a button. When you buy your first Airlo eSIM, you can get $3 off by using code DOAC3. For me, being able to land, switch on my phone, and get back to work is game changing, and Airlo makes this possible. Install Airlo today to get $3 off your first eSIM with code DOAC3 at checkout. That's DOAC3 when you download the Airlo app. (page turns) I guess I'm seeking advice from both of you on, uh, on love and ro- romance and relationships-

    11. MOMichelle Obama44:31

        Mm-hmm.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett44:31

        ... because in your, and I'm in my early 30s now-

    13. CRCraig Robinson44:33

        Mm-hmm.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett44:33

        ... and when I looked at both of your stories of love in your, your 30s, it's not a straight line.

    15. MOMichelle Obama44:39

        Oh, no. (laughs)

    16. CRCraig Robinson44:40

        No, no. (laughs)

    17. SBSteven Bartlett44:41

        It's not a straight line, to say the least. Um, Michelle, you talk about going to marriage counseling-

15. 44:46 – 49:23

    Couples Counseling with Barack

    1. SBSteven Bartlett44:46

    2. MOMichelle Obama44:46

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett44:46

       ... with, with Barack. What does someone like me, at 32 years old, who is in a relationship, who is aggressively pursuing a career-

    4. MOMichelle Obama44:55

       Mm-hmm.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett44:55

       ... because I feel like I've gotta build and build and build and set my family up for the future, what advice would you both give me about navigating love through that part of your career-

    6. MOMichelle Obama45:04

       Hmm.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett45:04

       ... where it's go, go, go, go, go?

    8. MOMichelle Obama45:06

       Hmm. For somebody with your personality in particular, um, my advice would be that, um, (clicks tongue) you know, I could see you thinking, you know, if we're, if, if, if I've got my stuff together and I've got my path going over here and you've got your path going over, on over there, you know, as long as we're both trudging along, you know, and pushing, we're gonna be good. And generally, that, that can work because you can be two independent beings out there with, y- you know, basically slaying your own dragons, right?

    9. SBSteven Bartlett45:45

       Mm-hmm.

    10. MOMichelle Obama45:45

        Making the choices about which dragons you slay and how, you know, how m- how much armor you wanna use, you know? You're, you're independent people and that feels good right now, until your first and most important joint project happened, which you told me you want, you have kids, right? That's oftentimes when the rub happens because when you, when you bring life into the world, you know, uh, uh, y- that's the, that's the project where you can't do that independently. You can't, you can't be on one path and your partner on another because raising those kids and making them as whole as, as you'd want them to be has so little to do with the dragon you're slaying now than it does with how you partner and engage and, and, and make choices together on this, these little creatures that you're gonna love more than anything in the world. And you're not gonna wanna get that project wrong, but you've gotta work with your partner, you've gotta communicate, and that's when it gets really hard.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett46:53

        Is that when it got hard for you and Barack?

    12. MOMichelle Obama46:55

        Yeah, yeah, because, you know, when you're independent operators in the world, it, you know, he's off, he's traveling, I'm traveling, you know, maybe I don't see him during the week and then on Saturday, "Whoa, it's great. I love you. I missed you. This was so cool. Tell me about your life." And, "Ooh, this is..." And it's sexy and it's all of this, right? And it feel- and you're, you're moving and, you know, and you also are okay having a break. It's like, let me miss you for a little bit. So I don't care that you're traveling or that you're everywhere, (sucks teeth) but the minute there's a little baby that is waking someone up, and if there's one person that's carrying the burden of that, you know, if one person's dream stops because they're taking on the lion's share of, of things and you're still going to the gym and you're still slaying your dragons at the same rate and you haven't looked over at your partner who maybe is now stuck at home because she's breastfeeding or she made a set of choices to make this little creature work and you guys haven't had a conversation about that and what that balance looks like because you're just slaying your dragon-

    13. SBSteven Bartlett48:03

        Mm-hmm.

    14. MOMichelle Obama48:03

        ... at the same rate, oh, there's gonna be problems, (laughs) you know? There's gonna be resentment. There's gonna be fatigue. There's gonna be measuring and counting and all the things. So I think it's just important to communicate now, to start doing the work of m- make s- making sure that you're def- you guys are f- defining your one life together, that you're deciding together now what dragons are gonna be slain-

    15. SBSteven Bartlett48:33

        Mm-hmm.

    16. MOMichelle Obama48:33

        ... and who gets to do what, when, you know? Um, and what does that feel like, you know? Are you gonna be working all the time? Are you gonna be traveling all the time on the road? Is she coming with you? How does she feel about that?

    17. SBSteven Bartlett48:47

        Did you have that conversation with-

    18. MOMichelle Obama48:49

        No. No, we did not.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett48:50

        You didn't have that conversation with her?

    20. MOMichelle Obama48:51

        No, 'cause I didn't know that that was a thing that you had to worry about because when you're in the midst of it, it's, when you're in the midst of pursuing your own independent journeys, it's beautiful, right? It is. It's like, I'm independent. He's independent. We, we get along. And then all of a sudden, someone's legs are cut off from under them, you know? (laughs) You know, someone is making w- a different set of sacrifices that wasn't negoti- that weren't negotiated-

    21. SBSteven Bartlett49:21

        Because of children.

    22. MOMichelle Obama49:22

        Um, because of children,

16. 49:23 – 56:16

    Pregnancy Struggles

    1. MOMichelle Obama49:23

       because of life.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett49:24

       You had some pregnancy struggles.

    3. MOMichelle Obama49:26

       Yes.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett49:26

       And I, I've spoken to many women on this show who have been through similar pregnancy struggles and it's something that I've, it's actually a big conversation in my life at the moment-

    5. MOMichelle Obama49:35

       Yeah.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett49:35

       ... but also just some of my friends in my life around trying to get pregnant, um, and the IVF journey which you went on.

    7. MOMichelle Obama49:43

       Mm-hmm.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett49:43

       What do women who are struggling need to understand and how did you feel when you were contemplating the IVF journey and when you started to have struggles, uh, conceiving without IVF?

    9. MOMichelle Obama49:58

       That's the thing, you know, because we don't talk about our bodies and w- women's health and there's just not a lot of conversation about marriage or pregnancy or any of this. Our parents don't talk about it, their parents before them don't talk about it, right? So you i- im- imagine your life and as you're checking boxes, "I'm waiting, I've delayed d- having kids, I found the love of my life and now I'm gonna get pregnant." And no one tells you that there is really a biological clock. Like that's not false, you know? We have partner in podcasts, Dr. Sharon Mal- Malone, who wrote a book Grown Woman Talk where she's talking, she's sort of ripping the- the- the curtain off of women's health questions and in a conversation with her, she reminded us that women, we are born with a finite set of eggs and we don't get any more (laughs) .

    10. SBSteven Bartlett50:53

        Mm-hmm.

    11. MOMichelle Obama50:53

        And every month we're losing them and so there is a period of time usually, and it's different for everyone, usually in your 30s where you go from fer- fertile to not (laughs) .

    12. SBSteven Bartlett51:04

        Mm-hmm.

    13. MOMichelle Obama51:05

        And it's like falling off of a cliff and I'm like, "Why didn't anybody tell me this?"

    14. SBSteven Bartlett51:11

        I know, it's crazy.

    15. MOMichelle Obama51:11

        Why won't, why, why wasn't pe- why weren't people talking about this? So by the time I, we started really trying, which- which worked perfectly for our careers and maturing and having everything set, right? Because that's what we're, we're trying to get everything set unlike our parents who, you know, had us, we lived in a little bitty apartment, you know, one income. Our generation we're worrying about, "Well, I want everything set." I- I guarantee you, you have things way more set than any- any of our parents had before they started having kids. But we're waiting for everything to be perfect, no friction.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett51:47

        Mm-hmm.

    17. MOMichelle Obama51:47

        We don't want any friction, right? And while we're- we're waiting for our lives to be perfect, that biological clock is ticking. So you start trying and you, it's not working. That's when you go to the doctor and they tell you, "Oh, you're- you're running out of eggs. This is normal. That means you're gonna have trouble getting pregnant and so try a little bit and then now it's time for IVF, um, if you can afford it," which it wasn't covered by insurance at the time. So, you know, it's just a shock to the system and as some, as people who like learning and like knowledge, you really sort of feel jipped.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett52:24

        Yeah.

    19. MOMichelle Obama52:25

        You know, that w- why is this such a secret?

    20. SBSteven Bartlett52:28

        Mm-hmm.

    21. MOMichelle Obama52:28

        Um, which is why I talk about it openly and I talk about miscarriages because the other thing I learned is like most pregnancies, a good percentage of them end in miscarriage. That people have been having miscarriages for years but not talking about it.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett52:43

        Mm-hmm.

    23. MOMichelle Obama52:44

        So when it happens to you, a box checker, somebody that thought life was gonna be so and you did all the right things, to have things not work out and to know that it was gonna be that way and nobody told you so that you could be prepared for it, it just f- it was a blow. And then as a woman you're walking around owning the blow as if it's your fault, you know? Um, and so you're carrying around that burden and that can become the first pressure point in a marriage because emotionally you've got a woman that is carrying all of this, feeling like a failure, feeling n- not having anyone to talk about, having her hormones go up and down literally, right? Probably dealing with depression and maybe some postpartum, still working, still slaying dragons, still on the path but she's carrying it all on her own. And then if you do IVF, the bulk of the work, the shots, the- the, we are the, we are the- the- the petri dish in the IVF process. You show up, you come in a cup and ooh, yay, good for you, right?

    24. SBSteven Bartlett53:51

        (laughs)

    25. MOMichelle Obama53:51

        And you're a little mad about that too because women have to get shots every week (laughs) .

    26. SBSteven Bartlett53:57

        Yeah.

    27. MOMichelle Obama53:57

        And you have to go back and forth in between having your job, your high-powered job and keeping it all together. You're at the doctor's office every month to trying to count your eggs and hoping that you're producing eggs and then you have to go through the procedure and then you have to be pregnant for nine months (laughs) as your partner is going to the gym and keeping his figure and, you know, all of that, you know? So it's a long way of saying there are just many natural reasons why marriage, infertility, trying to have kids makes things difficult. It's like I- I try to tell couples, "Of course it's hard. Just listen to what I said," right?

    28. SBSteven Bartlett54:41

        Mm-hmm.

    29. MOMichelle Obama54:42

        Like it's probab- if you're having some issues in your marriage, it's not you. It's the process of marriage. It's just all hard because guess what happens when it all works out, right? You know what you end up with? Babies (laughs) .

    30. SBSteven Bartlett54:59

        (laughs) .
17. 56:16 – 57:20

    Hardest Moments in Their Marriage

    1. MOMichelle Obama56:16

       person.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett56:16

       Was there ever a moment where you thought...

    3. MOMichelle Obama56:19

       Uh, you know, there are the moments where I'm like, "I hate you," right?

    4. SBSteven Bartlett56:23

       (laughs) I'm sorry. (laughs)

    5. MOMichelle Obama56:24

       But it, was it real? No. No. No. There's, there was never really a full moment. There were moments when I was resentful. There were moments when I was mad. There were moments when I didn't feel like I got enough attention. But it's like, don't you feel that in your relationship right now?

    6. SBSteven Bartlett56:44

       Yeah.

    7. MOMichelle Obama56:44

       You know?

    8. SBSteven Bartlett56:45

       Yeah.

    9. MOMichelle Obama56:45

       So it's just me understanding, yeah, I was mad but I forgot even why I was mad, right?

    10. SBSteven Bartlett56:51

        (laughs)

    11. MOMichelle Obama56:51

        That stuff. (laughs) It's like, "Was I really that mad? Oh, did I say that? I'm sorry. I didn't really mean that." So no, in the end, you know, mm-mm. No, we're, you know... And the beauty of my husband and my, our partnership is that neither one of us was ever really ever gonna quit at it 'cause that's not who we are. And I know that about him. He knows that about me, you know? Um, so no.

18. 57:20 – 1:03:18

    Barack Obama Runs for Public Office

    1. MOMichelle Obama57:20

    2. SBSteven Bartlett57:20

       Both of your lives change because of a decision that former President Barack Obama decides to make which is to run for public office, and that is, has a profound impact on both of your lives because it's the most powerful job in the world. It is, you become the most famous family in the world. When he said that he was going to do that, did you believe that he was capable of it?

    3. MOMichelle Obama57:47

       Uh, yeah. Uh, that was the, the problem is like... (laughs)

    4. SBSteven Bartlett57:53

       (laughs)

    5. MOMichelle Obama57:54

       Uh, you know, I, I, I knew that e- in my heart I knew that he would make a phenomenal president. Um, and as I've written in, in In The Light, um, uh, the, the truth was is that my initial reaction was like, "Oh, no. Oh my God. Don't do this." It had everything to do with having this foresight of knowing what this would do to our lives. I mean, I was projecting that if you win, which I thought he could and should, he would be somebody that I would want as my president. It was all about this is gonna... You know, our kids are little. We're gonna have to move. Well, how do you raise kids in the White House? Um, it's dangerous as the first Black potential president. We knew there'd be death threats. There were just all the... How would we afford it? Because it, i- i- it's expensive to live in the White House. There's... M- many people don't know, I mean, much is not covered. Um, you're paying for every food, e- every bit of food that you eat. You, you know, w- you're not paying for housing and the staff in it, but everything, even travel. If you're not traveling with the President, if your kids are coming on, uh, Bright Star which is the First Lady's plane, we had to play, pay for their travel to be on the plane. It is an expensive proposition and you're running for two years and not earning an income. Um, so all of that was in my mind. Um, how would we manage this? So, uh, my fears were, uh, what came from the fact that I thought he could win, you know? 'Cause if I, uh... Maybe way in the back of my mind I was hoping that maybe he wouldn't, you know? That this would be the last thing he would do. Um, but I knew he had it in him, uh, to make this happen.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett59:45

       This one change has transformed how my team and I move, train, and think about our bodies. When Dr. Daniel Lieberman came on The Diary of a CEO, he explained how modern shoes with their cushioning and support are making our feet weaker and less capable of doing what nature intended them to do. We've lost the natural strength and mobility in our feet and this is leading to issues like back pain and knee pain. I'd already purchased a pair of Vivobarefoot shoes so I showed them to Daniel Lieberman and he told me that they were exactly the type of shoe that would help me restore natural foot movement and rebuild my strength, but I think it was plantar fasciitis that I had where suddenly my feet started hurting all the time. And after that, I decided to start strengthening my own foot by using the Vivobarefoots. And research from Liverpool University has backed this up. They've shown that wearing Vivobarefoot shoes for six months can increase foot strength by up to 60%. Visit vivobarefoot.com/doac and use code Diary20 for my sponsor for 20% off. A strong body starts with strong feet. This has never been done before, a newsletter that is ran by 100 of the world's top CEOs. All the time people say to me, they say, "Can you mentor me? Can you get this person to mentor me? How do I find a mentor?" So here is what we're gonna do. You're gonna send me a question, and the most popular question you send me I'm gonna text it to 100 CEOs, some of which are the top CEOs in the world running $100 billion companies. And then I'm gonna reply to you via email with how they answered that question. You might say-How do you hold onto a relationship when you're building a startup? What is the most important thing if I've got an idea and don't know where to start? We email it to the CEOs, they email back, we take the five, six top best answers, we email it to you. I was nervous because I thought the marketing might not match the reality. But then I, I saw what the founders were r- replying with, and their willingness to reply, and I thought, "Actually, this is really good." And all you've gotta do is sign up, completely free. Did you ask for any commitments or promises if he were to win? (laughs)

    7. MOMichelle Obama1:01:47

       I, uh, you know, th- th- th- it, it wasn't very thoughtful. Um, I told him that he definitely had to quit smoking because he was still toying with smoking. He was in it, n- not in it. Um, and we had to have enough of a nest egg so that, you know, we could, that we wouldn't be just financially broke at the end of it. And, you know, I thought that that w- that was gonna cut it, right? Because we weren't in really, we, we, we were just starting to make, uh, decision moves where we were recovering the income that we'd lost making our purposeful moves. So I kinda thought that was gonna be the deal breaker. But then he was chosen to give the speech at the Democratic National Convention, and he just blew up. And as a result of that, and maybe I'm getting it out of order, Dreams from My Father went back on the bestsellers list. He wrote Audacity of Hope. You know, so there was all this income that was being generated from his book sales. And he kinda looked at me like, "I think we're okay." And I'm like, "Ah, darn."

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:59

       (laughs)

    9. MOMichelle Obama1:02:59

       "Drats." Um, so I, I didn't know enough to know what to ask for. I mean, we were flying blind. I didn't know what that journey was gonna be and what I would need to negotiate for myself, and that was a bit problematic. It was problematic not to know what I needed.

19. 1:03:18 – 1:07:00

    What I Should Have Said to Barack

    1. MOMichelle Obama1:03:18

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:18

       What should you have said?

    3. MOMichelle Obama1:03:20

       Oh, um, I should have said that I needed his team to really truly value that he had a family. You know, that I, I shouldn't have just said, "Well, this is what it takes to get this done." I mean, it was almost like the consultants that sit around, it was almost like this is the way it has to be. And remember, the, eh, the legacy of presidential office doesn't recognize families (laughs) . It, it is not designed, you know? You get in there and it all revolves around the commander-in-chief who has always been a man, and the whole system of it doesn't really take into account that there's a wife and kids and their needs and their, the demands on them. Um, so I wound up having to fight for a lotta stuff on my own. So if I had known these things and maybe, maybe Laura Bush knew more than I did because the Bushes had been in the White House, maybe, you know, I, you know, there's, I, I think about maybe there's some world where people knew more about this thing than we did to understand the impacts. But there are also generational differences. I was a very different first lady. Uh, not terribly different from Hillary Clinton, but it was a different time.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:48

       Mm-hmm.

    5. MOMichelle Obama1:04:48

       Uh, we had small kids in the White House, and that didn't happen often. There were just, uh, accommodations and, and, and ways that the, the West Wing did not think about or, uh, or work to fully protect all of us in the process as a unit. And so if I had known what I know, knew now, I, I would've asked for different things, but I ultimately, I had to push to, to get the things that we needed to be able to operate as a family. Even when it c- c- came down to how the Secret Service protected little kids (laughs) , you know? Um, the girls had to have a detail, right? So they started school in second grade and fifth grade in armed cars with primarily men with guns going into a new school, um, strangers (laughs) that they did not know. And the detail, these weren't, they weren't practiced on going to Sidwell's second grade, uh, schoolyard. So we had to basically work on how do you, how do you do this for little kids? You know? So a lotta times details just flood through. They, they, they continuously move through. It was important for me that we find, uh, two detail leaders that stayed with the girls for most of their time until they became teenagers, because it was sort of like-

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:21

       Yeah.

    7. MOMichelle Obama1:06:22

       ... you know these people, right? At least they get to know. They couldn't just have strange men coming throughout. Um, and we had to kinda fight for that. Um, so those, that's just one example of th- the, what living under those things and trying to raise small children, you know, the kind of things that the guys in the West Wing weren't thinking about as they were fixing the financial crisis and dealing with Syria and on and on and on. I was trying to make sure that our kids came outta that process not crazy, um, and whole.

20. 1:07:00 – 1:15:06

    Being the First Black First Lady and Facing Scrutiny

    1. MOMichelle Obama1:07:00

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:01

       Being the first black first lady in the White House, the public scrutiny that that comes with is a unique type of scrutiny.

    3. MOMichelle Obama1:07:11

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:12

       Being the first lady anyway-

    5. MOMichelle Obama1:07:13

       That's right.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:13

       ... comes with tremendous scrutiny.

    7. MOMichelle Obama1:07:15

       Absolutely. Since stepping reluctantly into public life, I've been held up as the most powerful woman in the world, and taken down as an angry black woman.I've wanted to ask my detractors which part of that phrase matters to them the most. Is it angry, or black, or woman? I've smiled for photos with people who call my husband horrible names on national television, but still want a framed keepsake for their mantle. I've heard about the swampy parts of the internet that question everything about me, right down to whether I'm a woman or man. A sitting US congressman has made fun of my butt. I've been hurt. I've been furious. But mostly, I've tried to laugh the stuff off.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:09

       Craig, if that was my little sister, public scrutiny-

    9. CRCraig Robinson1:08:12

       Mm-hmm.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:13

        ... elevated to the, the highest office in the land, I'll ask you the question. How, how would, how did you feel?

    11. CRCraig Robinson1:08:20

        So, I, that, that's, uh, let me back up. Because I had been a basketball coach at a big conference, I always had to tell them, "Don't worry about what people say in the newspaper. I am doing exactly what I love to do."

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:37

        Mm-hmm.

    13. CRCraig Robinson1:08:38

        And that doesn't bother me at all.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:40

        Okay.

    15. CRCraig Robinson1:08:40

        But then once they got in the White House, I had to tell myself that.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:48

        (laughs) Yeah.

    17. CRCraig Robinson1:08:49

        Because I knew that they were doing the best that they could do for the most people, no matter what anybody said. But because it's my little sister and brother-in-law, and my mom was in the White House, and my nieces, I was, I, there were times where I would find myself becoming enraged and I'd have to coach myself to, I know they're doing the best they're doing, they, they can do for the most people and I would not want anybody else sitting in that seat but my sister and brother-in-law. And that's how I got through eight years of that.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:30

        Because it's relentless.

    19. CRCraig Robinson1:09:31

        It is relentless.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:32

        It, it's relentless, it is global.

    21. CRCraig Robinson1:09:34

        It is re-

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:35

        It is unfair.

    23. CRCraig Robinson1:09:36

        And it's mean. It's just mean. And you know, the, I, I, I lean back on the lessons I learned from my parents a long time ago. I wasn't worried about what anybody said who wasn't at this table. And, um, and, and I, I coached, I, I counseled my family, my immediate family the same thing 'cause our kids, we, our older kids were old enough to read the papers and read the, read the news and on, and things online. But Miche always talks about this. In order to get through that, she always says she needed the village of her friends and family, and I just wanted to be a supportive piece of that. And we tried to get out there as much as we could and make it as normal as you can-

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:24

        Hmm.

    25. CRCraig Robinson1:10:25

        ... you know, having Thanksgiving in the White House, you know? That, that's an oxymoron almost, having a normal Thanksgiving in the White House, but we tried to make it as normal as we could.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:37

        And yourself? How, how does one deal with such, uh, scrutiny? The scrutiny occurs for eight years as the, you know, the public are at war with different opinions and ideas, and often the president is seen as the, the villain or the hero in that context, and the family is obviously impacted by that. But then even beyond the White House, it's, it's relentless.

    27. MOMichelle Obama1:10:58

        Mm-hmm.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:59

        What is the f- is there a framework? Is there an underlying belief? Is there a set of values?

    29. MOMichelle Obama1:11:02

        You know, it go, it goes back to what we learned earlier. I think I approach everything with empathy, um, and Barack does too. And he, he helps keep me in check, um, because he is so smart and he believes in ideas and he understands context and history. You know, we, we are always putting these times, these moments into a greater context and we're trying to understand where people's rage, ignorance, hatred, whatever it is, where it comes from, and it usually doesn't have anything to do with us. You know, it has to do with the state of the world, you know? And the world in this country is unfair for way more people than it is fair to, and it impacts people of all races. And folks are angry and they're scared, um, and they don't have enough opportunity. And when people are put in that position, they lash out. They're mean. That's when they're, they're, you know, we, we, we otherize people because it gives us a st- sense of stability. We pick on someone. Someone has to be a little more oppressed than us, uh, but that doesn't make what they say or feel true, you know? That's n- you know, just because you say it or think it about me and the way that I had to overcome the racist low expectations of m- us in our childhood, it's the same thing. It's like, you're not mad at me. You don't understand a lot about the world and you've been told a lot of things about who people of my skin color are. You've been taught to fear me because of the history of our country, because of what you're going through, and when you put yourself in other people's shoes, y- I, I do get why people are afraid. I do understand it. And also, Barack helps me remember, which I experienced myself, you know, he says, "This is still the country that elected Barack Obama twice."

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:07

        Mm.
21. 1:15:06 – 1:16:42

    Remembering Your Mother

    1. MOMichelle Obama1:15:06

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:06

       Marian, your wonderful mother.

    3. MOMichelle Obama1:15:10

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:11

       She was a prominent figure throughout that time in the White House.

    5. MOMichelle Obama1:15:13

       Oh, yeah.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:15

       What did she give you that helped you through that journey of being thrust into the very, very, very highest mountain in public service? What role did she play? What force was she at that time for you both?

    7. MOMichelle Obama1:15:30

       For me, she continued to be that s- soft place to land, you know? The place where she always saw me, always- always saw who I was, um, and she was that soft place for our girls. She was common sense right in the middle of the White House, (laughs) you know? In that big house, people, you know, w- just with her sheer presence and her wisdom, you know, that old-fashioned wisdom, she was the center of that house. Everyone came to her door and sat in her room and sucked up her wisdom. The butlers, the, (laughs) you know, the florists, the housekeepers, the chefs, you know? They- they were all mothered in some way by her. Um, and so she was that for me, for sure.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:29

       I can still see her in your face as you reflect.

    9. MOMichelle Obama1:16:31

       She's there. She is there. I see it in his face more. You know how you- you don't see yourself in your... Like, I don't think I look like him at all, right? But he looks just like my mother,

22. 1:16:42 – 1:18:25

    The Death of Your Mother

    1. MOMichelle Obama1:16:42

       right? (laughs)

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:43

       How did that loss impact the family? It's 2024, so it's fairly recent.

    3. MOMichelle Obama1:16:47

       Mm-hmm.

    4. CRCraig Robinson1:16:48

       Yeah, yeah, it's still- it's still painful. Um, but, uh, uh, you know, I'll go back to what I- I said v- at the very beginning when you talked about the values we had. The underlying value was unconditional love and Miche and I knew that our mom loved us and w- and- and even more importantly, she knew we loved her. She knew her grandkids loved her. So while her d- dying was traumatic and disappointing and sad, I always feel like she knew where we stood and she was... It was- it was when- when she was, uh, right before she passed away and she- we knew she was gonna be leaving us and I said, uh, "You know, Miche and Barack are on their way." And she was like, "Oh, that's nice." And she just h- said that, that was...

    5. MOMichelle Obama1:17:49

       Yeah. Uh, there was nothing left unsaid.

    6. CRCraig Robinson1:17:53

       Yeah.

    7. MOMichelle Obama1:17:54

       Yeah. And there's just, there was just, there's just a peace.

    8. CRCraig Robinson1:17:58

       Yeah. Ye- I- I- I just miss her.

    9. MOMichelle Obama1:18:01

       Mm-hmm.

    10. CRCraig Robinson1:18:02

        Right? But I feel like she knows how we feel about her and that's- that's always comforting. And speaking of comfort, that's how I felt when she was in the White House for them, 'cause I didn't have to worry about them when she was there.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:22

        Have you processed the- the grief? Have you been

23. 1:18:25 – 1:20:31

    Processing the Grief

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:25

       able to?

    2. MOMichelle Obama1:18:27

       I'm sure I have more than he does 'cause he doesn't process stuff. He just keeps working through it, but yeah, yeah, I- I think I've- I pro- I... F- for me, um, making choices for me, I feel like now I have permission to do what I wanna do. I think part of our podcast is part of that legacy, um, because at least for me as a woman, I think at 61, I'm finally owning my wisdom, um, in a way that I don't... You know, I think it takes women until we're about 60 to be like, "I- I think I know a thing or two."

    3. CRCraig Robinson1:19:09

       Mm-hmm.

    4. MOMichelle Obama1:19:10

       But that wisdom comes from her and she's- she was s- she's our l- our last line of elder wisdom, and so now we're up. (laughs)

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:19

       (laughs)

    6. MOMichelle Obama1:19:19

       We're next up, believe it or not. Me and Craig and our family, we're the- we're the ones, um, so IMO, um, In My Opinion, our podcast is sort of that offering back. It's like, all right, let's- let's keep up the mentoring that we were taught.You know, let's, let's, let's create our table and be a place where people can come for the little bit of advice and conversation in the same way that you're doing Stephen. It's like when you, when you learn something, the way you hone in on it is that you keep teaching it to other people.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:56

       Mm-hmm.

    8. MOMichelle Obama1:19:56

       Right? You said that, right?

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:59

       (laughs) Yeah.

    10. CRCraig Robinson1:19:59

        (laughs)

    11. MOMichelle Obama1:20:00

        Um, and so this is sort of helping us continue to, you know, by helping others-

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:06

        Mm-hmm.

    13. MOMichelle Obama1:20:06

        ... which is a thing we both get great joy from, that mentoring, be, just being able to, you know, have this conversation here and maybe somebody's gonna get something from it that I missed when I was their age. That brings us joy. It's like we're here for a reason other than making a bunch of money and, you know, living a nice life or being famous. It's like maybe we can help somebody.

24. 1:20:31 – 1:25:22

    Not Attending Trump’s Inauguration

    1. MOMichelle Obama1:20:31

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:31

       Permission.

    3. MOMichelle Obama1:20:32

       Yeah.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:32

       I was watching the coverage over your decision, your decision to sort of take back some of your control-

    5. MOMichelle Obama1:20:37

       Yeah.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:37

       ... and not go to Trump's inauguration.

    7. MOMichelle Obama1:20:38

       Uh-huh.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:39

       Is that one of those key moments in your life where you did take back control?

    9. MOMichelle Obama1:20:43

       Absolutely. Absolutely.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:44

        What, what was the thinking behind that decision?

    11. MOMichelle Obama1:20:47

        (sighs) Um, what do I want to do (laughs) in this moment, you know, as a box checking, a person who has been box checking her whole life, doing the right thing, um, f- s- trying to always be an example, always going high. Um, I think I n- now I earned a little bit about, well, how do I feel? You know, do I wanna upend my life and, and, and take this trip and leave my peace and my children for this? I don't, didn't have to. That, that was my choice and I, I was not... I would've never made that choice. I would've always done what, what I thought was the, the right thing to do for other people to set an example. And I, I, I think I just told myself, "I think I've done enough of that." And if I haven't, then I never will, it'll never be enough so let me start now. This is the perfect time to start. Um, so yeah.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:54

        Off, off the back of that, people start to swirl rumors that there's an issue with you and Barack and there's a divorce coming.

    13. MOMichelle Obama1:21:59

        Mm-hmm.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:59

        I can, I mean-

    15. MOMichelle Obama1:22:00

        Yeah.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:00

        You can say it yourself but-

    17. MOMichelle Obama1:22:02

        (laughs)

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:02

        ... I don't think that needs to be addressed.

    19. CRCraig Robinson1:22:06

        (laughs)

    20. MOMichelle Obama1:22:06

        (laughs)

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:06

        (laughs)

    22. CRCraig Robinson1:22:07

        (laughs)

    23. MOMichelle Obama1:22:07

        Uh, uh, what I will say, you know me now well enough, Stephen, is if I were having problems with my husband, everybody would know about it.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:14

        (laughs) Yeah.

    25. MOMichelle Obama1:22:15

        I'd be like, "Well, and let me tell you." And the ne- and he would know it and everybody would know it. I'm not a martyr, I'm not. You know?

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:21

        Yeah.

    27. MOMichelle Obama1:22:21

        And I would bo- I would be problem-solving in pr- public- (laughs)

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:25

        Yeah.

    29. MOMichelle Obama1:22:25

        ... and be like, "Well, let me tell you what he did."

    30. CRCraig Robinson1:22:28

        (laughs)

Episode duration: 1:27:44