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Professor Green: How To Overcome Life’s Hardest Challenges & Find A Purpose | E80

This weeks episode entitled 'Professor Green - How To Overcome Life’s Hardest Challenges & Find A Purpose.' topics: 0:00 Intro 02:45 Most pivotal moments from your early years 21:07 Becoming self-aware - getting older 29:47 Your dads suicide - mental health 45:35 The last conversation you had with your dad 55:33 Finding success and leaving people behind 01:01:34 Getting stabbed in the neck 01:13:35 How did you manage to make it over others? 01:21:33 Your new phase of life 01:26:36 How have you found the business world Stephen (Professor Green): https://www.instagram.com/professorgreen/ https://twitter.com/professorgreen Listen on: Apple podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-diary-of-a-ceo-by-steven-bartlett/id1291423644 Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/7iQXmUT7XGuZSzAMjoNWlX FOLLOW ► Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/steven/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/SteveBartlettSC Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steven-bartlett-56986834/ Sponsors: https://uk.huel.com/ https://fiverr.com/ceo

Steven BartletthostProfessor Green (Stephen Manderson)guest
May 10, 20211h 35mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:45

    Intro

    1. SB

      To say that Professor Green has faced and overcome adversity in his life is such a gross understatement. He's self-aware, he's honest, he's critical of himself where he feels he needs to be.

    2. PM

      I've got to do some work on myself here. Things need to change, 'cause you push things down, they come at you sideways. I can't keep projecting my problems onto other people and blaming them. "You know what? If you- if I ever see you again, I'm gonna knock you out." And, uh, people are like, "Wow, do you wish you could go back in time and change what your last words to h- him were?" No, of course not, because the anger was just. Uh, it was that constant. It was him being in and out of my life, him being such a kind, generous, gorgeous man, but being such a shit father. I felt like he was threatening me and I felt like I was right to stand my ground, but didn't expect that five minutes after that he'd walk up behind me and put a broken bottle in my neck. I got my phone, I called my nan, and I just apologized for all the work she had put into me, that this was how it was gonna end.

    3. SB

      To say that Professor Green, AKA Stephen Manderson, has faced and overcome adversity in his life is such a gross understatement. There's moments in this podcast today where you realize how unfortunate his life has been at certain moments and how much of a seemingly unfair start he had, that it almost doesn't seem like it can be true. And we know Professor Green. We know his music. I grew up listening to Professor Green's music. We know his documentaries more recently and how inspiring and vulnerable those documentaries have been. And most of us will know about the tragedy that met him in his early years when his dad decided to commit suicide. But it's interesting to see how all of these events came to shape this man, a man that is empathetic, a man that refuses to be bitter, and a man that has overcome and thrived despite all of this. Professor Green is a remarkable person. He's a remarkable guy. He's self-aware, he's honest, he's critical of himself where he feels he needs to be. And because of that, because of the content, the documentaries and the music he's made, he is one of my sincere inspirations, especially as it relates to mental health and the change that he's been able to make in the conversation. This is a- an honest conversation today and it's one that I think everybody should and needs to hear, especially men, especially in the world we live in. So without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. I did a lot

  2. 2:45 – 21:07

    Most pivotal moments from your early years

    1. SB

      of research on you and I- I've listened to podcasts you've done and I've read, um, parts from the book that you- you authored and I- I want to know from your perspective what you think the most pivotal moments were from your early years that came to shape the man that you became later in your life.

    2. PM

      Wow. Let's start with the big ones.

    3. SB

      Yeah, we went straight in, didn't we?

    4. PM

      Straight in. Um-

    5. SB

      Straight from small talk to... (laughs)

    6. PM

      It would be really easy to draw from, uh, some of the- the more traumatic events, I think, because they're the more obvious. Um, and they're- they're highlighted quite often. They come up in conversation all the time, but I think... I don't think they're- they're specific moments in the same way I think the- the worst traumas that I actually endured weren't any single moments. They were cumulative. They were things that happened over time. Um, I think it was probably more a case of my... or what shaped me being cumulative as well. It was the time that I spent with my great-grandmother. I was... So there was six of us in the flat when I was born. There was-

    7. SB

      Wow.

    8. PM

      ... me, my great-grandmother, my grandmother, my mother, and my two uncles, so my nan's three kids. Um, my mum was the first person to leave the house when I was a year old. She was a consist- she, you know, she was- she was there consistently throughout my life but my nan was my legal guardian when I was, by the time I was three. Um, and at a point when my nan could have started a new life for herself, she took on the responsibility of- of her mum and her grandson. But it was amazing because, you know, apart from the ancestral shit-

    9. SB

      What's the ancestral shit?

    10. PM

      ... that I absorbed... Um, sorry?

    11. SB

      The ancestral shit.

    12. PM

      Yeah. Well, just, you know, you think like my great-grandmother went through two world wars, whatever relationship she had been through, the relationship that she had with my grandmother, all the problems that they had as a mother and daughter, the problems that my nan had with my mother, the problems that my mother had with my grandmother.

    13. SB

      What were those problems?

    14. PM

      Um, I couldn't tell you because they weren't my problems. But they-

    15. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    16. PM

      ... existed and I was aware because there were arguments and there was stress and there was shouting and there were financial problems and struggles and there was robbing Peter to pay Paul, me being shuffled off into a room when, you know, a moneylender would come round to, you know, pick up money and conversations and... that I wasn't supposed to be privy to but in a three-bedroom flat that was about as big as the room that we're sitting in-

    17. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    18. PM

      ... it was quite difficult to avoid being aware of these things. Um, but there was a lot of good... Uh, people always go, "Oh, it must have been really tough growing up in Hackney." But I didn't have... I didn't know anything d- I didn't know any different. You know, it wasn't like I grew up in Wiltshire until I was 13 and then I was just airlifted-

    19. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    20. PM

      ... and dropped off in Hackney and told to survive. You know, it was all I knew. But in hindsight there was a lot that wasn't mine to take on but that I absorbed. That- that stress and that anxiety definitely seeped into me and I was a very anxious child. I was always, "Nan, I've got a- a tummy ache." But at the same time I was really fortunate because when- when people talk about, you know, kids who aren't brought up by a or both parents, they normally miss out on the nurturing that I definitely didn't because my great-grandmother was always at home. She hardly left the house, not least of all because of her age. Um, and that time I got to spend with her i- i- is probably what-... made the larger part of what good is in me, or encouraged the good in me. You know? I would run out into the living room, which was where she slept, on a chair that folded out. Every morning when that weird holding screen was on the BBC with the little girl holding that puppet with that "Eeh," which in hindsight is quite scary.

    21. SB

      Mm-hmm. Yeah, really weird. (laughs)

    22. PM

      A bit weird.

    23. SB

      (laughs)

    24. PM

      Um, but before the cartoons would come on and, you know, she would read to me, I always remember her blue blanket that I'd jump underneath. Um, and she taught me to read well ahead of my years, you know, basic numeracy and stuff. When I went to school, I was ahead of most kids because of that time spent with my great-grandmother and I enjoyed learning, so I sought validation in the right places rather than throwing tantrums at school, like a lot of people did because they weren't getting attention.

    25. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    26. PM

      You know? In single parent homes, parents have a tough decision to make, do I go out and work and lose out on the time with my child but be able to provide, or do I lose out on the, the money that I would make which would make supporting a child-

    27. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    28. PM

      ... easier? It's, uh, you know, that's a conundrum. That's a really difficult situation to be in. I was really fortunate I didn't lose out on that.

    29. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    30. PM

      Um, and I think it's that, that's what shaped me. You know? It wasn't any of any single event really, it, it was that period of time.

  3. 21:07 – 29:47

    Becoming self-aware - getting older

    1. SB

      did you go... So that process of unlearning-

    2. PM

      Yeah.

    3. SB

      ... all the shit you had to unlearn and, like, turning the lights on, I guess.

    4. PM

      Yeah.

    5. SB

      Um, that started with therapy?

    6. PM

      I think it started before therapy. I, I don't think it, I wasn't ready for therapy un- until I started to do some of that work myself. I think, like you, similarly, I have grown up, uh, with a mindset that I can do everything on my own, which is, uh, is, i- is it, it... I mean, it's, it's definitely helped me achieve a hell of a lot, but it, it also has put distance between me and people that it shouldn't have. And it's also made it hard for me to develop lasting relationships in, at points in my life. Um, some which, you know, I, I look back on and think, "I could've, I could've done better. I could've been better." Um...

    7. SB

      What were the key things you had to unlearn through that process, though, about yourself?

    8. PM

      Mine was m- mainly defensiveness.

    9. SB

      Really?

    10. PM

      Defensiveness, and a kind of want to... I guess the attendance thing is, that that played out throughout my life. I found it very, very difficult to finish things.

    11. SB

      Hmm.

    12. PM

      Um, uh, you know, so I would always have ideas. I would always begin things. I would get to a point where that sort of, you know, I didn't have my, m- my nan as, she wasn't as present a figure as for me to be able to just go, "Nan, I've got a tummy ache." But I would still get that feeling, which would make me want to withdraw, and would make things harder. Despite that, I've managed to kinda use that same energy, and this is why I think, you know, stress is, comes down to perspective. 'Cause work can be stress, or work can just be work. Right? It depends on your perception of it. And so my anxiety can be anxiety, or it can be nervous energy.

    13. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    14. PM

      And energy is what you need to get shit done.

    15. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    16. PM

      And I've done a lot of work around mental health, not least of all because of my encounters with my own problems, but also, w- what first made me aware of even the phrase mental health was my father took his own life. And that work, kind of, I think around the conversation of mental health, um, and encouraging people to be more open and honest with their sensitivities. And you should be open to everyone. Be smart enough to be open to the people that you can trust, because if you're open to everyone, that you're opening yourself up to be taken advantage of. Um, but the word, the one thing that goes missing in that conversation all too of- all too often is resilience. Resilience is incredibly important, and I think the only time that you can learn or become resilient without going through trauma and surviving it is therapy, when you're not at a point of crisis. So, that's why I was saying I did, I had to do some of the work on my own for me to be able to go to therapy, and then be able to grow through that.

    17. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    18. PM

      Because if you just go to therapy when you're at a point of crisis, it's like waiting until you get sick to go to a doctor.

    19. SB

      Yeah.

    20. PM

      You know, I try now to take a more proactive re- you know, pro- a proactive approach to my own health. And that's not just my physical wellbeing. That's my mental wellbeing. Ultimately, they should be one and the same. It's just health. Um, but I think we have a very reactive nature to most things in, in, in Western culture. We're not encouraged to be proactive.

    21. SB

      And we also, uh, probably have a foolish sense of optimism about h- how life will unfold, right? We think it'll all be okay. Our health will be fine. We think we'll never really get old because it kind of creeps up on you. So-

    22. PM

      It's crept up on me. I'm 38 this year.

    23. SB

      And me. I looked in the mirror the other day, I saw gray hairs, I was like, "What the fuck is going on here?"

    24. PM

      I love it, though.

    25. SB

      (laughs)

    26. PM

      'Cause do you know what makes me laugh, right? People always moan about getting older.

    27. SB

      Yeah.

    28. PM

      And, uh, I'm just, I'm very like, I, I can be quite simple and matter-of-fact about things and it's just like, "Well, okay, the, the alternative is you die," right?

    29. SB

      Yeah. (laughs)

    30. PM

      That's the only way you stop getting older is you die.

  4. 29:47 – 45:35

    Your dads suicide - mental health

    1. SB

      (page turns) You mentioned your dad there-

    2. PM

      Yeah.

    3. SB

      ... and I, I watched the documentary you made where you, um... I, I watched it, I think it was two separate documentaries that I saw, um, about the topic and you went on a journey of understanding him, um, the life he lived, and why he made the choices he, he ultimately did.

    4. PM

      Mm-hmm.

    5. SB

      Can you tell me what you, you, you learnt through that process?

    6. PM

      Yeah. Um, quite concisely as well at the point I'm at now and it's that I think the difference between someone who will take their own life and someone who won't is the ability to tolerate how you feel at any given time. And I've had moments where I wanted to scratch my skin off, but I've never contemplated suicide.You know, I, I've never suffered suicidal ideation. There's, there's, there's, there's a, a big difference between lows.

    7. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    8. PM

      Um, and also I think, you know, there's ... Something that's quite scary is the hyper-awareness that people have now around everything. Everything has a tag.

    9. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    10. PM

      Everything has a name, everything is a condition. And I think we're getting to a point now where you need awareness before understanding, and then bef- you know, awareness, understanding, action. To me, that's the-

    11. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    12. PM

      ... the train of things, whether it's, you know, th- that keeps the depression. Like, I think now there's a conversation around it, but how much is being actioned?

    13. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    14. PM

      Not enough yet. But I do think it comes down to being able to tolerate how you feel, because I c- I, I've ... At my very lowest lows, I've come out by carrying on.

    15. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    16. PM

      Um, and my dad got to a point where, where he couldn't and there wasn't the support around him to, to help him in those moments. And sometimes I think even if the support is there, that choice is, is that person's.

    17. SB

      It just seems so unthinkable to, to ... I just, I-

    18. PM

      And, uh, but be lucky for that.

    19. SB

      Yeah.

    20. PM

      You know?

    21. SB

      Yeah, yeah, and you're right.

    22. PM

      Be lucky for that.

    23. SB

      I've just spent the longest amount of ... So when I su- first started hearing about mental health, which is probably about 10 years ago-

    24. PM

      Yeah.

    25. SB

      ... when I was about, I don't know, six, uh, 18 maybe, the term started to emerge in our soci- society.

    26. PM

      Yeah, it wasn't just, "He's mental." "She's mental."

    27. SB

      Yeah, it was, "You're crazy." Or whatever, yeah.

    28. PM

      Yeah.

    29. SB

      And then it w- thankfully, it's the stigma has slightl- become, is, is changed over time. And I just have always struggled to, um, to understand, and this is why it's almost become ... I, uh, strange thing to say, but a bit of an obsession of mine-

    30. PM

      Mm-hmm.

  5. 45:35 – 55:33

    The last conversation you had with your dad

    1. SB

      you talked about your documentary e- uh, then, and I, I, one of the things that when I watched your documentary really stuck out to me was you recounted the last conversation you had with your dad.

    2. PM

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SB

      And it, um, it stuck out to me because I reflect on my own relationships with my parents and I was, it made me think about the last conversation I had with my parents. My parents are getting old, especially my dad. Um, can you talk a little bit about that and your feelings towards that conversation now?

    4. PM

      Yeah. So my, I'd opened, I said I would never ever make myself vulnerable as far as my, my dad again. Um, and by that I mean I would never give him the opportunity to let me down. Um, and then I did.

    5. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    6. PM

      Uh, and it was just before Christmas that we spoke, and we agreed to meet up the day after Boxing Day. Um, I was sat at the food court of the shopping center in Walthamstow, uh, with my then partner at the time, Theo. I can remember it so vividly. Um, and I called him to make arrangements for the next day. Uh, I wasn't driving. He had moved to Brentwood. Um, he was driving and I said, "So are you gonna come and see me tomorrow?" And he was like, "Oh," uh, mentioned the name of his, uh, wife, um, now widow, and said, "Oh, you know, her and the kids would really love to see ya." They were his stepchildren. They have no relation to me. Um, and I was like, "This ain't about..." And this is the first time that I ever... I was always too scared to speak up to him about how I felt because I at times blamed myself or worried that I was the reason that he would disappear for a year and a half, two years at a time and not see me. Um, so I would never speak up and tell him how much it hurt every time he did that. And this time I went, "This is not about me coming to play happy families. This is about..." And I was 18. Like, "This is about you and I sitting down and having a conversation as adults and trying to see if there's a way in which we can move forward and forge some sort of relationship with trust."

    7. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    8. PM

      Um, and he was like, "Oh, what, uh, actually, you know what? If you, if I ever see you again, I'm gonna knock you out." Um, and I wouldn't. I'd have bawled my eyes out and given him a hug. Um, but I was right to feel that anger because he had hurt me so, so, so much, so many times throughout my entire life. Um, and that's what I meant about it being cumulative, you know. It was that constant. It was him being in and out of my life, him being the parent that I favored, him being such a kind, generous, gorgeous man, but being such a shit father, you know. That was cumulative. It wasn't any one moment. It was all of the moments that he wasn't there, that he missed, that he let me down. All the days spent looking out of my front room window which looked right at the bus stop that he should've got off of a bus at-

    9. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    10. PM

      ... um, to come and see me when he never showed up. You know, it was all of that that added up to that moment. And I, people are like, "Wow, do you wish you could go back in time and change what your last words to him were?" No, of course not, because that anger was just-... you know?

    11. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    12. PM

      How could I not be that angry? Why should I feel guilt over his actions or lack of actions, you know? I can own that, and I'm fine with it, and I don't feel like I should feel any which way about saying that to him because I was, uh, it, me being that angry was justified.

    13. SB

      I, I mean, like, uh, if... I don't think a lot of people would have, um, even been trying to rectify the situation at that point, right? I know a lot of my friends who won't even entertain a conversation with their, with their biological fathers or mothers because they were absent.

    14. PM

      Mm-hmm. But have the conversation, though. Get to a point where, where, where-

    15. SB

      (sighs)

    16. PM

      ... where you can let go of... And don't... But yet, the problem is, right, they have a narrative that they have to justify themselves. And this is something that I've, I've learned. So, so they have a narrative that... And I still have this with members of my family now. I- if we get into that conversation about the past-

    17. SB

      Mm.

    18. PM

      ... they have a narrative which justifies their every choice, which makes it okay, that they have to have to live with... Because I haven't dealt with this shit yet. They're not gonna deal with this shit. You know? If they were gonna deal with this shit, they would have done it. The chances of me getting those people into, you know, through the door to see a therapist, nil. Not happening. Um, me taking that step and sorting my shit out doesn't mean that I can sort their shit out. It doesn't mean that if I make the room and give them the forgiveness that they're gonna be able to accept that forgiveness and be honest with me because they still have to hold onto that narrative to justify their decisions, because they haven't made amends with their decisions, and I, I can't expect them to.

    19. SB

      Yeah.

    20. PM

      So they own-

    21. SB

      And you can't need that.

    22. PM

      I can't. And I can't. Uh, but I can't need that because if I need that, I'm always going to be underwhelmed, offended, upset-

    23. SB

      Bitter, yeah.

    24. PM

      ... let down, and bitter, and I don't wanna be any of those things, not in the least of all now I have a child that I want... You know, the great thing is my child is born into a world where it's me and my partner, uh, and she's amazing. She's incredible and has done, you know, a lot of the same work that I have in order to get to the place where she's at in her life. And we have this peace because we're able to have open conversations. We're able to discuss things rationally. We're able to be wrong. There's room. We make room for each other to be wrong, you know? We make room for each other to be upset, no matter how irrational. We give each other room and space and time, and we're considerate, and we're kind, and we don't... You know, we, we try our best not to, to revert to a child and be defensive and offensive because of that. Um, and, you know, it, it's why we've had a child-

    25. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    26. PM

      ... because we feel safe with each other.

    27. SB

      On that point of, like, moving on, so people... In our lives, we all have to m- to move on from things, whether it's a relationship, whether it's trauma, whether it's things that happened w- you know, with our parents, whatever. Um, people f- tend to think that... You know, they use this phrase a lot. One of my friends was saying it to me the other day. "I just need closure." And I, I just... I remember thinking, "Oh, f- you're fucked then if you-"

    28. PM

      You're fucked. You are fucked. (laughs)

    29. SB

      Yeah. (laughs) 'Cause what is closure? Closure is insecurity about what happened. And, uh, uh, a lot of the time, especially in romantic situations-

    30. PM

      Yeah.

  6. 55:33 – 1:01:34

    Finding success and leaving people behind

    1. SB

      you even find that in your own friendship circle? I think I found that a little bit where because I, I had success and some of my closest friends actually ended up, they worked at my company and that's how they became some of my be- my best friends.

    2. PM

      Yeah.

    3. SB

      So I didn't know them before the company, but like, I wa- you work with someone side by side for ten years and they become-

    4. PM

      Inevitably they-

    5. SB

      Yeah. Yeah.

    6. PM

      Yeah.

    7. SB

      And I, but I was always the boss, so I've always, I've always worried that because I had that like, I was like the pack leader in my little group of friends, that they might not check me all the time when I needed to be checked.

    8. PM

      Right.

    9. SB

      So this was something-

    10. PM

      Because they feel like you know best.

    11. SB

      They know I know best, and because I've always been like the boss, I've always been-

    12. PM

      Yeah.

    13. SB

      ... like I've always been the one in charge. I've always been the one leading them as well. So it's like...

    14. PM

      So for, for me stepping into business now, it's really important for me to have, um, coworkers that will challenge me. I don't want someone that just goes, "Okay, that's not working, we'll stop that." I want someone to go, "Yes. The- that's not, that is underperforming at the moment, but given a chance, in two months you're gonna see results from that because you're gonna build and grow your audience." I need educating on that because-

    15. SB

      Sure.

    16. PM

      ... that's not my, that's not my forte, you know? That's not my skillset. Um, and so you need coworkers and friends that will challenge you.

    17. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    18. PM

      You know, and I, I believe in challenge, healthy challenge because an opinion is not an opinion, it's an idea until it's challenged, you know? So if I say, you know, "I believe we should go this way," and you say, "Do you really?" And then I explain why, I've stood on the table for it.

    19. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    20. PM

      So now it's my opinion and I know it's my opinion, but up until that point it was just an idea. It was a belief, but not necessarily a correct one.

    21. SB

      And when you started to see success in your life, were there people in your circle that were friend, people you considered to be friends, that were clearly not happy for you?

    22. PM

      One of the best bits of a- of advice I was ever given was by, um, a rapper, but he was a friend of mine, Skinnyman, who said to me, "A real friend, uh, of yours will never be of hindrance to you." And there were definitely people who weren't as comfortable with me not being in the same situation that they were in doing the same things.

    23. SB

      A lot of people deal with this. I got a call yesterday from one of my best friends and he said, "One of my friends is just complete... Just unfollowed me on all, all the social platforms." And I said, "Why is that?" And he goes, "Well, I think it's because like I've started to do really well and he, it, it's a reflection, he thinks it's a reflection on him. He thinks it means he's a piece of shit because I'm succeeding."

    24. PM

      Or an attack on.

    25. SB

      Yeah, this is just... And I, I, this is a conversation that don't, people don't have enough, but at any point in your life when you, when you divert from the like the path, especially the path that you share with your closest friends-

    26. PM

      Mm-hmm.

    27. SB

      ... quite often there will be some kind of force from them to try and pull you back to them.

    28. PM

      Yep.

    29. SB

      And say, "Don't... Who the fuck do you think you are, Stephen?"

    30. PM

      Yeah.

  7. 1:01:34 – 1:13:35

    Getting stabbed in the neck

    1. SB

      (page turns) When you think of Shoreditch, what do you think?

    2. PM

      Um, people pissing up people's doorsteps.

    3. SB

      Interesting. (laughs) That's my home.

    4. PM

      (laughs)

    5. SB

      I was, I was, I was at- I was wondering if the, just the term Shoreditch alone would, um, would make you think about the scar you have.

    6. PM

      Ah. Yeah.

    7. SB

      (laughs) No, you said pissing up doorsteps.

    8. PM

      Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, it don't, yeah, it don't... It's weird, man. There's, there's, like, I got hit by a car in 2013, um-

    9. SB

      Fucking hell.

    10. PM

      Yeah, it was ... Well, I got squashed between two cars. I managed to get myself up on the bonnet, so it was only my left leg that got caught. The bloke didn't realize his car was in eco 'cause it was a new car. So he'd had his foot on the brake, which put the car in eco. He took his foot off the brake as I was walking between two cars, um, and he felt the engine start, so he panics and slammed his foot down, but instead of hitting the brake, he hit the accelerator.

    11. SB

      You're joking.

    12. PM

      Um, and that was a far more traumatic event for me, um, than being stabbed because that was really unpredictable. Nothing came before that that I contributed to. Um, when I got stabbed, look, when I, I think I was eight when Chesty, someone from my flats who, he, he don't live in the country anymore, um, he got bottled and stabbed and one of my pals, Jamal, who was younger than me, ran and ... I might have been nine, 'cause I think Jams was like seven, and he ran and called the ambulance for Chesty. Like, this stuff happened, you know. Um, I didn't expect to get stabbed by someone I didn't know, that I had no history with. It, it was, it didn't really feel like retribution for what had just happened. There was a little bit of bickering. He said I barged his mate. It was proper stupid, young bravado, macho shit-

    13. SB

      Did it happen in a club?

    14. PM

      Yeah, in Cargo. Um, and I just stood my ground really, was all I did. That was all I did wrong in that situation, if you even think that's me doing wrong. Um, in hindsight, I could have just gone, "I did op- I didn't barge his mate." I said, "Excuse me," and I moved past with an open hand in a crowded club. I was as polite and as passive as I could have been and always have been.

    15. SB

      People don't know when they're drunk, you know?

    16. PM

      But he was just on one, you get me.

    17. SB

      Yeah.

    18. PM

      So, um, but then I did, I stood my ground. And in hindsight, like, now at the age I am, and especially with, you know, having a child and just thinking about how I want him to grow up and what I want him to understand being a man to be, um, you know, I could have just gone, "You know what? Sorry, bruv," and been done with it. Um, but I felt like he was threatening me and I felt like I was right to stand my ground. I didn't expect that five minutes after that, he'd walk up behind me and put a broken bottle in my neck. Um, but at least my, my mum and my nan started talking again.

    19. SB

      (sighs) I heard you called your, you called your nan.

    20. PM

      Yeah.

    21. SB

      In that moment?

    22. PM

      Yeah. So we, we were still fighting outside, so he stabbed me. I managed to push him out the way, get out the club. Holding my neck together, obviously, you've got all kinds of adrenaline running through your body at that point, so you're not really aware of the ... I mean, I know I'd been poked in the neck and it's not really ... If you're gonna get poked, you don't want it to be in your neck.

    23. SB

      No, fuck yeah.

    24. PM

      It doesn't, you know, your chances of survival is not high. Um, and then we got, the fight got broken up. I think there was police outside the club. I think it was broken up by a poli- the whole thing is a bit blurry to me. And then I'm sat on the ... 'Cause I ended up getting arrested as well. Um, but I'm sat on the curb, my phone's come out my pocket, um, and I can see on everyone's faces, you know, this is not, this ain't going well for me.

    25. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    26. PM

      So I asked to pass my phone, got my phone. I called my nan and I just apologized for all the work she had put into me, that this was how it was gonna end. Um, she just said, "You're gonna be fine. Shut up." And she did actually tell me to shut up.

    27. SB

      (laughs)

    28. PM

      And well, she's Cockney, so you know.

    29. SB

      Yeah. (laughs)

    30. PM

      Um, and she just said, "You're gonna be fine. You're gonna be fine." Um, and she came to the hospital, as did my mum, and they both started talking over my table that I was on. Um, and it's kind of weird because when I went to hospital, I was treated like I was some kind of notorious gang member. The, the, the hospital staff were not sympathetic to my situation whatsoever.

Episode duration: 1:35:36

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