Professor Green: How To Overcome Life’s Hardest Challenges & Find A Purpose | E80

Steven Bartlett 0:00 To say that Professor Green has faced and overcome adversity in his life is such a gross understatement. He's self-aware, he's honest, he's critical of himself where he feels he needs to be.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 0:12 I've got to do some work on myself here. Things need to change, 'cause you push things down, they come at you sideways. I can't keep projecting my problems onto other people and blaming them. "You know what? If you- if I ever see you again, I'm gonna knock you out." And, uh, people are like, "Wow, do you wish you could go back in time and change what your last words to h- him were?" No, of course not, because the anger was just. Uh, it was that constant. It was him being in and out of my life, him being such a kind, generous, gorgeous man, but being such a shit father. I felt like he was threatening me and I felt like I was right to stand my ground, but didn't expect that five minutes after that he'd walk up behind me and put a broken bottle in my neck. I got my phone, I called my nan, and I just apologized for all the work she had put into me, that this was how it was gonna end.

Steven Bartlett 1:07 To say that Professor Green, AKA Stephen Manderson, has faced and overcome adversity in his life is such a gross understatement. There's moments in this podcast today where you realize how unfortunate his life has been at certain moments and how much of a seemingly unfair start he had, that it almost doesn't seem like it can be true. And we know Professor Green. We know his music. I grew up listening to Professor Green's music. We know his documentaries more recently and how inspiring and vulnerable those documentaries have been. And most of us will know about the tragedy that met him in his early years when his dad decided to commit suicide. But it's interesting to see how all of these events came to shape this man, a man that is empathetic, a man that refuses to be bitter, and a man that has overcome and thrived despite all of this. Professor Green is a remarkable person. He's a remarkable guy. He's self-aware, he's honest, he's critical of himself where he feels he needs to be. And because of that, because of the content, the documentaries and the music he's made, he is one of my sincere inspirations, especially as it relates to mental health and the change that he's been able to make in the conversation. This is a- an honest conversation today and it's one that I think everybody should and needs to hear, especially men, especially in the world we live in. So without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. I did a lot

Steven Bartlett 2:45 of research on you and I- I've listened to podcasts you've done and I've read, um, parts from the book that you- you authored and I- I want to know from your perspective what you think the most pivotal moments were from your early years that came to shape the man that you became later in your life.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 3:06 Wow. Let's start with the big ones.

Steven Bartlett 3:08 Yeah, we went straight in, didn't we?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 3:09 Straight in. Um-

Steven Bartlett 3:09 Straight from small talk to... (laughs)

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 3:11 It would be really easy to draw from, uh, some of the- the more traumatic events, I think, because they're the more obvious. Um, and they're- they're highlighted quite often. They come up in conversation all the time, but I think... I don't think they're- they're specific moments in the same way I think the- the worst traumas that I actually endured weren't any single moments. They were cumulative. They were things that happened over time. Um, I think it was probably more a case of my... or what shaped me being cumulative as well. It was the time that I spent with my great-grandmother. I was... So there was six of us in the flat when I was born. There was-

Steven Bartlett 3:52 Wow.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 3:53 ... me, my great-grandmother, my grandmother, my mother, and my two uncles, so my nan's three kids. Um, my mum was the first person to leave the house when I was a year old. She was a consist- she, you know, she was- she was there consistently throughout my life but my nan was my legal guardian when I was, by the time I was three. Um, and at a point when my nan could have started a new life for herself, she took on the responsibility of- of her mum and her grandson. But it was amazing because, you know, apart from the ancestral shit-

Steven Bartlett 4:25 What's the ancestral shit?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 4:25 ... that I absorbed... Um, sorry?

Steven Bartlett 4:27 The ancestral shit.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 4:28 Yeah. Well, just, you know, you think like my great-grandmother went through two world wars, whatever relationship she had been through, the relationship that she had with my grandmother, all the problems that they had as a mother and daughter, the problems that my nan had with my mother, the problems that my mother had with my grandmother.

Steven Bartlett 4:43 What were those problems?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 4:44 Um, I couldn't tell you because they weren't my problems. But they-

Steven Bartlett 4:47 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 4:47 ... existed and I was aware because there were arguments and there was stress and there was shouting and there were financial problems and struggles and there was robbing Peter to pay Paul, me being shuffled off into a room when, you know, a moneylender would come round to, you know, pick up money and conversations and... that I wasn't supposed to be privy to but in a three-bedroom flat that was about as big as the room that we're sitting in-

Steven Bartlett 5:08 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 5:08 ... it was quite difficult to avoid being aware of these things. Um, but there was a lot of good... Uh, people always go, "Oh, it must have been really tough growing up in Hackney." But I didn't have... I didn't know anything d- I didn't know any different. You know, it wasn't like I grew up in Wiltshire until I was 13 and then I was just airlifted-

Steven Bartlett 5:25 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 5:25 ... and dropped off in Hackney and told to survive. You know, it was all I knew. But in hindsight there was a lot that wasn't mine to take on but that I absorbed. That- that stress and that anxiety definitely seeped into me and I was a very anxious child. I was always, "Nan, I've got a- a tummy ache." But at the same time I was really fortunate because when- when people talk about, you know, kids who aren't brought up by a or both parents, they normally miss out on the nurturing that I definitely didn't because my great-grandmother was always at home. She hardly left the house, not least of all because of her age. Um, and that time I got to spend with her i- i- is probably what-... made the larger part of what good is in me, or encouraged the good in me. You know? I would run out into the living room, which was where she slept, on a chair that folded out. Every morning when that weird holding screen was on the BBC with the little girl holding that puppet with that "Eeh," which in hindsight is quite scary.

Steven Bartlett 6:22 Mm-hmm. Yeah, really weird. (laughs)

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 6:23 A bit weird.

Steven Bartlett 6:24 (laughs)

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 6:24 Um, but before the cartoons would come on and, you know, she would read to me, I always remember her blue blanket that I'd jump underneath. Um, and she taught me to read well ahead of my years, you know, basic numeracy and stuff. When I went to school, I was ahead of most kids because of that time spent with my great-grandmother and I enjoyed learning, so I sought validation in the right places rather than throwing tantrums at school, like a lot of people did because they weren't getting attention.

Steven Bartlett 6:49 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 6:49 You know? In single parent homes, parents have a tough decision to make, do I go out and work and lose out on the time with my child but be able to provide, or do I lose out on the, the money that I would make which would make supporting a child-

Steven Bartlett 7:02 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 7:03 ... easier? It's, uh, you know, that's a conundrum. That's a really difficult situation to be in. I was really fortunate I didn't lose out on that.

Steven Bartlett 7:09 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 7:10 Um, and I think it's that, that's what shaped me. You know? It wasn't any of any single event really, it, it was that period of time.

Steven Bartlett 7:19 And you said your mum was the first to leave the house?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 7:21 Yeah. She... So, my mum was 16 when she had me, um-

Steven Bartlett 7:24 Oh, wow.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 7:24 Yeah. Um, my dad was 18. They were separated very quickly. Um, and my mum had a lot of growing to do. I'm more than twice her age and I've just become a father. I can't imagine-

Steven Bartlett 7:34 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 7:35 ... you know, being a parent or having tried to have been a parent when I was 16.

Steven Bartlett 7:39 Fucking hell.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 7:39 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 7:41 16.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 7:42 Yeah, man.

Steven Bartlett 7:42 Such a crazy age to... Well, you're a baby yourself, aren't you, at 16? It's like-

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 7:47 Very much so, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 7:49 And how was your, what was your relationship like with your mum f- from that point onwards?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 7:54 Um, so me and my mum, we've had an on and off relationship in, in the latter years of my life. You know, I don't talk about it too much. Um, there's loads of stuff about, out there about my relationship, or lack thereof, with my dad because of how his life ended. Um, but, you know, I always, I was brought up to not air dirty laundry.

Steven Bartlett 8:14 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 8:14 And my mum did try, she did. You know? And like I say, she was a much more, uh, she was a much more consistent part of my life than my dad was. You know? She made, she made the effort.

Steven Bartlett 8:26 Has it taken you some time to get to the point where you can be compassionate about your experiences with her?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 8:36 I think it's taken me some time to get to the point where I can be compassionate about my experiences with everyone-

Steven Bartlett 8:41 Really?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 8:42 ... that I was involved with growing up. Um, and I think I got to that place quite a while ago. And, it's quite, it's quite liberating, man. It- it- it's, it's quite freeing.

Steven Bartlett 8:52 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 8:52 Because that... I, I think holding on to anger, you know, it becomes resentment, and that leads to bitterness, and, and bitter is not something I'm interested in being. I think a lot of people get... You know, I ended up quite bitter and jaded quite early on, and that determines the rest of their lives. Um, and I used to be quite scared to even say the words "I'm happy" because I would worry about what was round the corners that I couldn't see around. Now I'm never gonna develop the power to see around corners.

Steven Bartlett 9:24 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 9:25 Um, and worrying about what's out of your control, um, and preempting things that may or may not happen-

Steven Bartlett 9:32 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 9:32 ... is not the healthiest way to live.

Steven Bartlett 9:34 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 9:35 Um, it's not great for your mental health, it's not great for the quality of life that you have because if you're constantly worrying... You know, I can enjoy a lot of what, um... or be happy about a lot of the things that I've achieved with hindsight.

Steven Bartlett 9:47 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 9:47 But actually when I was going through the early years of, of my... of the successful part of my music career, there was a lot of things that I didn't enjoy in the moment as much as I should because I was worried about dropping the ball. And because I experienced loss quite early on, um, and come from quite a disadvantaged background and I wasn't used to a lot of the things that I was starting to encounter, I was scared of, of loss-

Steven Bartlett 10:11 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 10:11 ... and of losing it and of dropping the ball, you know? It's why I didn't take holidays. I would attach a few days here and there onto work. But I felt... I was, you know, I was scared to enjoy myself or to, to let go of that, kind of, almost incessant need to keep working because I was worried about losing it. But I wasn't enjoying what I had, so did I ever really have it?

Steven Bartlett 10:31 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 10:31 Um, and it took me a while to get to a point where, you know, I'm in a place where I enjoy things as they happen and life is a lot more pleasant because I don't spend my time catastrophizing about what may or may not happen.

Steven Bartlett 10:42 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 10:43 Um, not least of all because I've survived things. You know? And I know that if shit does hit the fan and things do happen, it's quite likely that I'm gonna get through them. So I can worry about them happening and ruin my life day by day-

Steven Bartlett 10:59 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 11:00 ... because all I do is worry about what may or may not happen, which is also distracting and doesn't allow me then to focus on the things that are in front of me and that are important-

Steven Bartlett 11:07 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 11:08 ... which will build a happier-

Steven Bartlett 11:10 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 11:10 ... a steadier and more consistent life for me, or I can, I can deal with things as they come knowing that I have the strength and the resilience in myself to handle things. Um, and it's taken me a while to get to that point. It's taken some therapy as well.

Steven Bartlett 11:24 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 11:25 But it's kinda... It- it- it's... You know, I- I feel quite calm and relaxed in saying right now that I am happy and I feel quite secure in that I can handle what may or may not come my way.

Steven Bartlett 11:38 Talk about worry there. And y- you referenced earlier, you- you'd say to your... I think your nan, that you had a, like a pain in your belly.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 11:45 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 11:45 And y- I guess you didn't really know what that was when you were younger.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 11:48 Nope.

Steven Bartlett 11:49 What did you come to learn about that pain in your belly?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 11:51 Um, that it was anxiety. It was a knot in my stomach. The problem was I was born with a problem in my digestive tract. So I had, um... It was called... I don't know if it was the procedure that was called pyloric stenosis or the condition, but stenosis is narrowing. Um, and my stomach basically, or...... the pile of muscle at the bottom of your stomach should open and close to let food pass, but mine was just closed. So at six weeks old, I had an operation which has left me with a scar that goes from there to there.

Steven Bartlett 12:16 Hm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 12:17 Um, so whenever I said, "Nan, I've got a bellyache, I've got a tummyache. Nan, I've got a tummyache," it was straight to the doctors. Um, and that then meant that I would go to the hospital and have cameras up me, down me, you know, be put into machines to be scanned to make sure there wasn't something physically wrong, which there wasn't. It was psychological. Um, I was diagnosed with IBS really early on, and that's still quite misunderstood, you know. Is it something psychological that manifests physically or is it physical and causes mental problems? Um, and I think that really highlights the intrinsic link between the gut and the brain.

Steven Bartlett 12:55 Hm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 12:56 Um, and it, again, I guess that's a bit of a chicken and egg situation.

Steven Bartlett 13:01 Never really considered that before. Never really g- ever considered that there might, there might be a link between the two. Um, and with IBS especially, it's something that I've become in- increasingly curious about because as I said to you before we started recording, I've definitely got a problem with my gut.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 13:14 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 13:14 I just haven't figured out quite yet what it is. Um, going back to your sort of, your formative years, was there anything else through that period that would shape the man you, you became, that you can really think of between the age of, like, I don't know, zero and 16? Like, school life and stuff like that and-

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 13:30 Yeah. Um, so I was, I was quite a bright kid.

Steven Bartlett 13:33 Really?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 13:33 Um, and... You sound surprised. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 13:35 Yeah. Well, I have to, I... Most, most people I sit here don't seem to be, uh, especially people that come from that kind of background, don't, don't tend to h- be that academic.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 13:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 13:44 Their smarts and genius teams- seems to come from other creative sources or they're like... Like yesterday, we had Russell, Russell Kane here, and he's just, like, a c- you know, a comedic genius and then became a bit more academic when he left school, but you know.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 13:57 I've kind of... I, I, I guess there's... I've kinda gone full circle in that I have to use the academic part of my brain in what I do now more than I have done-

Steven Bartlett 14:05 Hm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 14:05 ... for the last 10 years during making music. Um, but that wasn't really harnessed. It wasn't... You know, education wasn't big in my family. No one had been to university. So me being as bright as I was, I wasn't pushed as, as hard as I, as I should've been because my nan sympathized with my situation. Uh, my dad being in and out of my life, me being a very sensitive child, my mum not bringing me up, um, and that all quite clearly affecting me. Um, my only problem at school was ever... The only problem I ever had at school was, was my attendance.

Steven Bartlett 14:37 Hm. Hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 14:38 Um, and I went from, you know, leaving primary school with the opportunity to sit the exam for some pools to, uh, at the age of 11, to a pupil referral unit by the time I was 13. Um-

Steven Bartlett 14:52 Because of attendance?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 14:54 Yeah, because of attendance. And by that point, you know, at 13, I didn't really draw a, uh, I didn't really join the dots or draw a parallel between the two things happening. But my great-grandmother passed when I was 13, um, a- and that was very, very difficult for me because she was the person who if she said to me that everything was gonna be all right, she was the one person I believed up until that point when I realized that sometimes it, it isn't. Um, and some of her last words to me when we were in the ambulance on the way to the hospital were, "I can't fight forever." And I knew at that point that was her saying, "Hey, I've, I've had my innings." And she was 90, she had a good innings. Two world wars, one World Cup. Um-

Steven Bartlett 15:35 "I can't fight forever."

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 15:37 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 15:37 What was she, what was she... What was the context of her saying that to you?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 15:41 Um, I believe that was her saying that she'd made her peace, you know. She, she had, you know... She lived with arthritis, diabetes, um... We made a good stock though, you know. To go through what she went through, a metal plate in her leg. She got run over when she was 19. Um, I believe she, she was, um... And this is only stuff I've started to find out recently. She was, um, placed on a doorstep when she was a baby and she was brought up in foster care. Uh, her sister wasn't. I didn't even know she had a sister until recently. Um, and you know, we talk about ancestral shit, you can see where these things start to... You can see where thes- these things start and come from and, you know, the issues that abandonment and detachment cause. They're, they're more than just social issues. They impact development.

Steven Bartlett 16:35 Hm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 16:36 I can just see how it- th- a lot of my family experienced a lot of trauma early on, from my great-grandmother to my grandmother to my mother to my dad. They all had pretty difficult childhoods. My dad ended up in care because he was the sixth of six children, and his mum walked out. Um, so he was in care for the first few years of his life. He was also born a twin. His twin died at birth. Um, my namesake, my uncle, who I never met, Steven, died when he was 19. Went into a diabetic coma and passed away two years before my dad took his own life. His brother took his own life in the same way. In the year in between that ha- of them two taking their own lives, he lost his sister to, uh, cancer that he was the last possible donor for and he wasn't suitable. There was... You know, there's tr- trauma's been a, a pretty... Trauma's been pretty constant throughout almo- (laughs) almost, almost all of my elders.

Steven Bartlett 17:31 Quick one. Starting from the minute the lockdown is lifted, we're gonna start bringing in some of our subscribers to watch how this podcast is produced behind the scenes. It means you get to meet the guests, meet myself, and see how we put all of this together. If you want that to be you, all you've gotta do, hit the subscribe button. When you think about all, all that's happened in your sort of generational cycles and with your elders... And this is me just thinking, like, had I been through that, I would, I think I'd, I'd be overly conscious about how I maybe unconsciously, um...... can work to make sure that m- you know, you've just had a boy, right? Can make sure that it, like, stops with me, right?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 18:12 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:12 Like, you know what I mean? As much, uh, 'cause, yeah, I mean, I see it in my own family. I see that I've, there's parts of my parents that I've become that I don't love.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 18:20 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 18:20 You know, and I don't, and I'm, and I, do you know what? And my, my parents were actually really, um, unaffectionate, relatively unaffectionate, and, and quite vacant. I still call them by their first names, and I find it really awkward to call them Mum and Dad. Like, I've, I've never, in 27 years, looked at my mum or dad and called them Mum or Dad, ever. Not once, ever. Never.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 18:41 That's crazy.

Steven Bartlett 18:42 And even, like, I, I, I'm not close to them at all, and I'm s- terrified by the prospect that when I have my kid, the same thing will happen. Um, so, uh, that's what I wanna ask is like, I would be, like, what are you, what's your thinking and your, like, concerns when you think about your child and making sure those generational cycles end with you? Like...

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 19:00 Um, my concerns are, uh, uh, (sighs) I mean, my concern, that, around that?

Steven Bartlett 19:06 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 19:06 To be, like, 100% honest, that there, there aren't any.

Steven Bartlett 19:09 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 19:10 Um, I had, I've had a child years before now, I think there would've been many, but I've done a hell of a lot of work on, on trying to understand myself, trying to... It's weird, right? You spend so much time learning, and then you get to a point where you're like, "Fuck, now I've got to unlearn all of this shit." Because if you're, if you're fortunate enough to be smart enough to be able to take a long hard look at yourself, and you're self-aware, um, which is painful at times-

Steven Bartlett 19:37 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 19:37 ... but then you can put your hands up and you can own your behaviors, um, and you, you know, you can take responsibility for your choices and your decisions. And, you know, you go through relationships, and I found at points I was finding the same person in a different body.

Steven Bartlett 19:53 Oh, yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 19:54 Yeah. And then, you know, the same problems occur in the relationship, but what's, you know, what's the common thread throughout that narrative? I am the common denominator.

Steven Bartlett 20:03 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 20:03 So I can't keep projecting my problems onto other people and blaming them for just being themselves.

Steven Bartlett 20:09 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 20:09 I've gotta do some work on myself here. Things need to change, and, uh, well, one thing needs to change. Me. How do I do that? I have to understand myself better. I have to understand my behaviors. I have to understand my insecurities.

Steven Bartlett 20:22 It's hard to do.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 20:23 It is, because it's the most, it's, you know, it's that kind of, I've never had this anxiety dream. I've only ever had the one where I can't stop pulling teeth out of my mouth. Like, and even in a dream going, "Okay, I know I don't have that many teeth, but they're still coming out."

Steven Bartlett 20:36 (laughs)

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 20:36 But it's that whole, like, kind of all of a sudden you're naked in front of your entire school. If you're gonna go and see a therapist, it... Look, you, you have to go in and be honest. You can't lie to a therapist. Um, otherwise it won't work. And so you have to explore your deeper, most darkest and, and, and frightening insecurities in order to understand why certain... why you have certain behaviors, why you respond so defensively in situations. What makes you insecure?

Steven Bartlett 21:06 What did you, how

Steven Bartlett 21:07 did you go... So that process of unlearning-

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 21:09 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:09 ... all the shit you had to unlearn and, like, turning the lights on, I guess.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 21:12 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:12 Um, that started with therapy?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 21:14 I think it started before therapy. I, I don't think it, I wasn't ready for therapy un- until I started to do some of that work myself. I think, like you, similarly, I have grown up, uh, with a mindset that I can do everything on my own, which is, uh, is, i- is it, it... I mean, it's, it's definitely helped me achieve a hell of a lot, but it, it also has put distance between me and people that it shouldn't have. And it's also made it hard for me to develop lasting relationships in, at points in my life. Um, some which, you know, I, I look back on and think, "I could've, I could've done better. I could've been better." Um...

Steven Bartlett 21:55 What were the key things you had to unlearn through that process, though, about yourself?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 21:58 Mine was m- mainly defensiveness.

Steven Bartlett 22:01 Really?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 22:01 Defensiveness, and a kind of want to... I guess the attendance thing is, that that played out throughout my life. I found it very, very difficult to finish things.

Steven Bartlett 22:11 Hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 22:11 Um, uh, you know, so I would always have ideas. I would always begin things. I would get to a point where that sort of, you know, I didn't have my, m- my nan as, she wasn't as present a figure as for me to be able to just go, "Nan, I've got a tummy ache." But I would still get that feeling, which would make me want to withdraw, and would make things harder. Despite that, I've managed to kinda use that same energy, and this is why I think, you know, stress is, comes down to perspective. 'Cause work can be stress, or work can just be work. Right? It depends on your perception of it. And so my anxiety can be anxiety, or it can be nervous energy.

Steven Bartlett 22:47 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 22:47 And energy is what you need to get shit done.

Steven Bartlett 22:50 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 22:50 And I've done a lot of work around mental health, not least of all because of my encounters with my own problems, but also, w- what first made me aware of even the phrase mental health was my father took his own life. And that work, kind of, I think around the conversation of mental health, um, and encouraging people to be more open and honest with their sensitivities. And you should be open to everyone. Be smart enough to be open to the people that you can trust, because if you're open to everyone, that you're opening yourself up to be taken advantage of. Um, but the word, the one thing that goes missing in that conversation all too of- all too often is resilience. Resilience is incredibly important, and I think the only time that you can learn or become resilient without going through trauma and surviving it is therapy, when you're not at a point of crisis. So, that's why I was saying I did, I had to do some of the work on my own for me to be able to go to therapy, and then be able to grow through that.

Steven Bartlett 23:50 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 23:50 Because if you just go to therapy when you're at a point of crisis, it's like waiting until you get sick to go to a doctor.

Steven Bartlett 23:56 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 23:57 You know, I try now to take a more proactive re- you know, pro- a proactive approach to my own health. And that's not just my physical wellbeing. That's my mental wellbeing. Ultimately, they should be one and the same. It's just health. Um, but I think we have a very reactive nature to most things in, in, in Western culture. We're not encouraged to be proactive.

Steven Bartlett 24:18 And we also, uh, probably have a foolish sense of optimism about h- how life will unfold, right? We think it'll all be okay. Our health will be fine. We think we'll never really get old because it kind of creeps up on you. So-

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 24:28 It's crept up on me. I'm 38 this year.

Steven Bartlett 24:30 And me. I looked in the mirror the other day, I saw gray hairs, I was like, "What the fuck is going on here?"

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 24:34 I love it, though.

Steven Bartlett 24:35 (laughs)

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 24:35 'Cause do you know what makes me laugh, right? People always moan about getting older.

Steven Bartlett 24:39 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 24:39 And, uh, I'm just, I'm very like, I, I can be quite simple and matter-of-fact about things and it's just like, "Well, okay, the, the alternative is you die," right?

Steven Bartlett 24:48 Yeah. (laughs)

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 24:48 That's the only way you stop getting older is you die.

Steven Bartlett 24:51 Yeah. Can't get younger.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 24:52 So, so what's, you know-

Steven Bartlett 24:53 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 24:53 ... well, unless you're bio-hacking and trying to-

Steven Bartlett 24:56 Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 24:56 ... uh, lengthen your telomeres, um, but, you know, it's, it, I just think growing old is, is great, growing older is great.

Steven Bartlett 25:04 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 25:05 If you can do it with, with, I don't know, with... actually, not just with good intention. I've always had good intentions, but I've made a lot of bad decisions. I think growing older once you get to a point where you feel happy and comfortable in your skin-

Steven Bartlett 25:20 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 25:20 ... is, is, it makes it easier.

Steven Bartlett 25:22 Yeah, it does.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 25:23 I'm not as stressed about getting older-

Steven Bartlett 25:25 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 25:25 ... because I'm really happy with who I'm becoming.

Steven Bartlett 25:27 Yeah. That's exactly it. That's exactly it. When I, I... This sounds like a fucking weird thing to say, obviously I don't care, but, like, when I looked in the mirror the other day and I saw gray hairs, and it's funny because the most comforting thought that I had was, like, "But I'm happy," and, like, you know what I mean? It's the strangest thing.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 25:42 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 25:42 It's like, I'm getting older, yeah, but I'm happy and I'm, I'm doing myself justice. What I mean by doing myself justice is, like, I'm living my life.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 25:49 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 25:49 I'm, like, being myself-

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 25:50 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 25:50 ... and so I'm happy to get... You know, the worst possible scenario would be I look in the mirror, I see gray hairs, and I've been at work at fucking KPMG 'cause my mum said that was success, and I'm, like, I'm on my way to a midlife crisis. I'm not being myself. I've not pursued my dreams.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 26:03 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 26:03 The... It sort of feel like the clock is ticking. But when I look in the mirror, because I feel like I'm, I'm l- living my true self, I'm like, "Cool." Every time I get, uh, you know, th- they add another number to my age I'm like, "Cool." Ultimately, I'm like, "Cool," because it's... 'cause I'm living my... You know? And that's... This sounds like it's a very interesting thing to say, but it's also one of the things that's made me not fear death like I used to.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 26:25 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 26:25 I used to be scared of death.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 26:27 Yeah, because I guess it's getting to the point of your life where you feel as though... And I, I do wonder if this played a part in what my dad did, getting to a point in life where you think you can't start over.

Steven Bartlett 26:38 Hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 26:38 I'm too old to make the decisions that I wish I made. Um, and it makes me, it's given me more... I guess, more... com- comfort's the wrong word, but, like, I've always been quite happy to fall on a sword as long as it's my own.

Steven Bartlett 26:53 Yeah, yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 26:54 And, uh, I'm always more scared about having... Uh, look, I worked 10 years specu- speculatively, you know, as far as music. You know, from 18 to 28. I was 28 when I first sold a record. I had people round me going, "Come on, bro, man. You've got to find something else to do." Um, and I just, I don't know if there was, like, a bit of, of, of self-belief buried beneath all of the insecurities that kept me going or if it was just blind stupidity or a combination of the two, but I kept going because I wanted it so badly-

Steven Bartlett 27:22 Hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 27:22 ... and I loved it.

Steven Bartlett 27:23 You loved it, yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 27:24 I loved it. I really, really loved it.

Steven Bartlett 27:26 You have to.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 27:26 There was nothing in my life at that point that made me shake my hands like writing a good lyric.

Steven Bartlett 27:30 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 27:31 You know, that type of excitement when you nail something, you know, you're walking around the room trying to get that last line of something and then you get it and you're like...

Steven Bartlett 27:38 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 27:39 That feeling is not something that I get from, you know, many aspects of my life. Um, and so I, I continued. And I, I think it's something that's... It, it's quite, it's not the easiest thing to do, is it, when you've got, especially if you're from a disadvantaged background because you don't have a fallback or a plan B or a grandparent that will die and leave you an inheritance-

Steven Bartlett 28:03 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 28:03 ... so as you say, you don't have that security. But at the same time, you know, I know a lot of people with that security who don't push for anything. And every time I talk to them, they've got a different idea and a different business venture but they execute and achieve nothing-

Steven Bartlett 28:14 Hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 28:15 ... because they don't have to.

Steven Bartlett 28:17 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 28:17 So-

Steven Bartlett 28:18 (laughs) Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 28:19 ... there's-

Steven Bartlett 28:19 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 28:20 I think there's, there's, there's two sides to that coin, you know? If you grow up entirely comfortable, do you ever want to push that hard-

Steven Bartlett 28:27 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 28:27 ... to get to where you want to get to?

Steven Bartlett 28:29 It's interesting, isn't it? 'Cause that hunger of not having it is, is also an advantage as is the hung- the, the, you know, the, the privilege of having it. (page turns) I spend a lot of time talking about Huel on this podcast 'cause they're the sponsor of the podcast and I'm also on the board at Huel. Um, I'm also an investor in the company. But, um, I've made a transition recently. Not a transition, I'd say an addition to my Huel diet. I've been drinking the RTD, the ready-to-drink Huels for a long time now, but as summer approaches and as my goals, my fitness and my health goals have s- started to shift a little bit, I've become obsessed with Huel's Black Edition, specifically the vanilla flavor. The difference with the Black Edition is there's 50% less carbs, there's 33% more protein in it, zero artificial sweeteners, and it's naturally gluten-free. So if you're looking to lean up dar- dare I say, for summer, then try the Black Edition vanilla flavor. It's really, really helped me lean up. And I always, you know, take my top off on this podcast to prove to you. I'm not gonna do that today, but I... Take my word for it, it's had such a radical impact on, um, the amount of carbs and, uh, visible fats that you can see on me. Highly, highly recommend trying Black Edition vanilla flavor if you've got goals to lean up for summer, to, to, to consume less carbs and to get more protein.

Steven Bartlett 29:47 (page turns) You mentioned your dad there-

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 29:48 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 29:49 ... and I, I watched the documentary you made where you, um... I, I watched it, I think it was two separate documentaries that I saw, um, about the topic and you went on a journey of understanding him, um, the life he lived, and why he made the choices he, he ultimately did.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 30:02 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 30:03 Can you tell me what you, you, you learnt through that process?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 30:06 Yeah. Um, quite concisely as well at the point I'm at now and it's that I think the difference between someone who will take their own life and someone who won't is the ability to tolerate how you feel at any given time. And I've had moments where I wanted to scratch my skin off, but I've never contemplated suicide.You know, I, I've never suffered suicidal ideation. There's, there's, there's, there's a, a big difference between lows.

Steven Bartlett 30:31 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 30:32 Um, and also I think, you know, there's ... Something that's quite scary is the hyper-awareness that people have now around everything. Everything has a tag.

Steven Bartlett 30:40 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 30:40 Everything has a name, everything is a condition. And I think we're getting to a point now where you need awareness before understanding, and then bef- you know, awareness, understanding, action. To me, that's the-

Steven Bartlett 30:52 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 30:52 ... the train of things, whether it's, you know, th- that keeps the depression. Like, I think now there's a conversation around it, but how much is being actioned?

Steven Bartlett 31:01 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 31:02 Not enough yet. But I do think it comes down to being able to tolerate how you feel, because I c- I, I've ... At my very lowest lows, I've come out by carrying on.

Steven Bartlett 31:13 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 31:14 Um, and my dad got to a point where, where he couldn't and there wasn't the support around him to, to help him in those moments. And sometimes I think even if the support is there, that choice is, is that person's.

Steven Bartlett 31:28 It just seems so unthinkable to, to ... I just, I-

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 31:32 And, uh, but be lucky for that.

Steven Bartlett 31:34 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 31:34 You know?

Steven Bartlett 31:34 Yeah, yeah, and you're right.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 31:35 Be lucky for that.

Steven Bartlett 31:35 I've just spent the longest amount of ... So when I su- first started hearing about mental health, which is probably about 10 years ago-

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 31:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 31:42 ... when I was about, I don't know, six, uh, 18 maybe, the term started to emerge in our soci- society.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 31:46 Yeah, it wasn't just, "He's mental." "She's mental."

Steven Bartlett 31:48 Yeah, it was, "You're crazy." Or whatever, yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 31:49 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 31:49 And then it w- thankfully, it's the stigma has slightl- become, is, is changed over time. And I just have always struggled to, um, to understand, and this is why it's almost become ... I, uh, strange thing to say, but a bit of an obsession of mine-

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 32:05 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 32:05 ... to understand the position someone must be in to believe that, to feel that that is a better outcome for them. It's ju-

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 32:14 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 32:14 And I, and this is why it was so powerful watching your documentary, because, you know, even when you were doing the role play with the, the guy in the chair and you, you were being the, um, the, the friend and then the guy was sat in the chair. He was the ... You went to the clinic where they help people who have, who are having suicidal ideation.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 32:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 32:31 And, and just even i- in the role play session, I was like, "Oh God, this is unthinkable." It's just something that I think someone who has had the privilege of good mental health will always struggle to understand. And that's a problem because if you can't empathize with it properly, we can't, I th- I don't think we address it properly.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 32:53 But you can, I think you can empathize without understanding.

Steven Bartlett 32:57 Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 32:58 You know?

Steven Bartlett 32:58 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 32:58 And I think we all too often, we, we wanna fix things. Soon as someone says they're sad, you're like, "Come on, cheer up." That's not helpful.

Steven Bartlett 33:04 Yeah. Uh huh. Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 33:05 I'm like, I'm like be, "Okay. Be upset. What's, you know ... Let's go through this." You have to kind of go through the upset rather than trying to suppress it.

Steven Bartlett 33:12 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 33:12 'Cause you push things down, they come at you sideways.

Steven Bartlett 33:15 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 33:15 Um, it's ... I, I think, you know, when my dad took his own life, one of the first things I wanted to do was understand how he was capable of doing that.

Steven Bartlett 33:23 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 33:24 And I quite quickly realized the only way I will ever understand how he was able to do it is if it ... I'm in that situation.

Steven Bartlett 33:29 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 33:29 Which I'm never going to be.

Steven Bartlett 33:31 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 33:31 So I let that go.

Steven Bartlett 33:33 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 33:33 Quite quickly. Um, and I, I don't think it's a good idea to try and ... I mean, unless you're studying psychology and understanding the workings of the mind which would allow you to empathize, I don't think it's good to try and understand, you know, if something seems irrational or, uh, and forgive me for using this word-

Steven Bartlett 33:51 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 33:51 ... crazy to you, you will drive yourself mad trying to understand it because they are not the workings of your mind.

Steven Bartlett 33:57 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 33:57 And that's not healthy either.

Steven Bartlett 33:59 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 33:59 But, you know, just going back to the hyperawareness thing, I think people will find themselves in situations where they will call themselves depressed when actually they've had something traumatic happen or something sad happen, you know? If something sad happens and your cat dies and you don't wanna get out of bed for two days, that's not depression. You're upset.

Steven Bartlett 34:16 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 34:16 You're dealing with grief and loss. That's normal, you know? If nothing has happened in your life, uh, that's traumatic and everything seems great but you feel horrendous, you know, or you can't feel anything, then that's something to be addressed.

Steven Bartlett 34:30 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 34:31 Um, uh, I think we need to be careful of, of everyone diagno- or not everyone but people starting to diagnose themselves with conditions that they perhaps don't have. And I think that's a danger in everything having to have a tag now and everything needing a name and, you know, everyone needing to be, be put-

Steven Bartlett 34:47 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 34:47 ... in a box.

Steven Bartlett 34:49 Yeah. And, and then the way that we treat people in those scenarios when we've misdiagnosed them or too quickly diagnosed them is also unhelpful, right?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 34:57 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 34:57 I spent the last six months working pretty much full time at a men's health company in London called Atai.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 35:03 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 35:03 And they, uh, they're a psychedelics company. They're probably the biggest in Europe. And one of the things that I came to learn from working there ... They're the biggest in the world. Sorry, not in Europe. Um, one thing I came from working there but also from reading one of my favorite books which is up there called Lost Connections by Johann Hari was ... I used to think growing up that, um, because this is what I was told, depression was a chemical imbalance in the brain-

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 35:24 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 35:24 ... because something was broken. And no one ever told me that trauma or what happened to you can cause depression. So I just, you know, you'd think, "Okay, well, uh ..." And that makes you also almost blame the victim more so than saying ... Like, if it's like, "What's wrong with you?" then it's like, it's kind of, you know, "You're broken." But if it's what's happened to you, it's a much more empathetic approach and also appreciates, you know?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 35:48 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 35:48 And that was the big shift that I've experienced in the last, like, three years was, I used to think everything was just chemical imbalance, broken.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 35:55 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 35:55 You know?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 35:56 And then what comes with that is often how do you fix a chemical imbalance? With chemicals.

Steven Bartlett 35:59 Chemicals. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 36:01 Uh, and the best prescription in the beginning ... Listen, there are some people that will always need medical-

Steven Bartlett 36:05 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 36:05 ... intervention to help them.

Steven Bartlett 36:07 And it does, does help.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 36:07 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 36:07 It does help some people.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 36:08 It, it does, but I also think that, you know-... sayings, "You are what you eat," you can eat yourself into depression.

Steven Bartlett 36:14 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 36:15 You know, and, and all of those things, they kind of become part of a self-perpetuating cycle. If I feel like shit, I, I don't move as much, and then I'll make bad decisions with food, and then I feel worse.

Steven Bartlett 36:25 Yeah. Oh, God. That's such, so true.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 36:26 And, but it does beca- And especially during this time when people aren't as active as they were, they're not engaging socially as they would have otherwise-

Steven Bartlett 36:35 (sighs)

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 36:35 ... um, you know, you, the sales of alcohol went through the roof. Alcohol's a depressant. The more you drink, the lower you are. You're, you're, you know, all of these contributing factors that can contribute to negative mental health, you know-

Steven Bartlett 36:47 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 36:47 ... uh, and or can negatively impact your mental wellbeing. Um, and a great prescription sometimes is, is, you know, eating better, going for a walk. You know, exercise doesn't have to be a 45-minute HIT class that leaves you wanting to not get out of bed for two days-

Steven Bartlett 37:02 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 37:02 ... because that's you putting your body through another stress-

Steven Bartlett 37:04 Yeah. (laughs)

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 37:04 ... on top of all the stress you're already going through. Um, but just, you know, movement, eating well, good conversation. Um, something I've found quite difficult, but m- has become more apparent is my need to move away from certain people because they aren't moving in the same direction as me, and they encourage certain things that, that hinder my growth-

Steven Bartlett 37:24 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 37:24 ... and stop me moving forward. My life has changed, and I've found that very hard. And you, you know, we, we, when you talk about grief, you instantly think someone's died, but y- you can grieve parts of your life.

Steven Bartlett 37:36 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 37:36 You know, parts of... Saying goodbye to certain things, certain people in my life has felt like the same loss as-

Steven Bartlett 37:42 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 37:42 ... you know, when I've actually lost someone who's passed away. But you have to do those things in order to grow and to get where you want to, to be. And it's, it sounds selfish, but selfish has so many negative connotations attached to it. But I think, you know, selfishness not a the detriment of others and selflessness not the detriment of yourself is good because how else do you... Like, you're no good to anyone if you're no good to yourself. And that was a huge, huge learning curve for me and one that I found really, really difficult to execute, to start making decisions based upon what was right for me, because I felt obliged to, to be here for that person and then doing the same things as those people.

Steven Bartlett 38:26 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 38:27 Um, a- a- and it wasn't help-

Steven Bartlett 38:29 No. Yes.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 38:29 You know what I mean? And it weren't helping me.

Steven Bartlett 38:30 It took me back to this time I met this monk, world-famous monk. I said, "Is it bad that I'm focusing on building my business and making money, um, right now? Is that, like, a selfish thing for me to be doing when I could be off in Africa helping kids?" And his response to me, he was on stage, he goes, he goes, "You have to fill up your own bottle, so you can pour it out for other people." And he... And I always remember him saying that 'cause it... You know what the crazy thing is? When I was 18, I, I wanted to... I, I sat in my m- m- moss side in this room, and I sat there thinking, "Steve, you're making a f- a wrong life decision because you know you've got a brain, and you know you can, like, affect change. And the fact that you're trying to build this business and not in Africa saving even just one life-"

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 39:11 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 39:11 "... means that you're being terribly selfish." And my... The way that I rationalized myself out of that state of mind, which was, like, stopping what I'm doing and flying to Africa, was this belief that if I was to be successful, I would be able to help more people one day.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 39:23 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 39:23 And it's kind of relinks to what you said there about, like, selfishness, in many cases, is actually selflessness.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 39:29 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:30 Uh...

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 39:30 Yeah, especially if you, you find yourself in a position later on where you can, you know, you c- you can affect change for the better-

Steven Bartlett 39:38 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 39:38 ... on a much grander-

Steven Bartlett 39:39 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 39:39 ... level, you know. You have a much bigger stage now. I like I s- I love a lot of the stuff that you say, most of the stuff that you say, and I generally don't like motivational speakers, but I find when you speak-

Steven Bartlett 39:52 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 39:52 ... it's motivational-

Steven Bartlett 39:53 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 39:54 ... which is quite different.

Steven Bartlett 39:55 Yeah. (laughs) Yeah. Yeah, and it's weird 'cause I don't a- e- I really don't endeavor to be motivation. It's like most of the time I am in the gym, and I write something in m- the notes of my phone, and it ends up on the internet. So it's like-

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 40:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 40:05 ... I'm not trying to be. And also I'm not, like-

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 40:08 But that's why it works.

Steven Bartlett 40:09 ... you know what I mean? You know what I'm saying?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 40:09 But that's why it works. And it's like whenever I did my documentaries, I, I, I didn't try and tell anyone else's story. I was just catalyst for them to speak.

Steven Bartlett 40:16 Exactly, and it's your truth.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 40:18 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 40:18 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 40:18 And it's my opinions, which were formed during the process of the, the, the filming. I didn't go into it with... And if I went to it in... So if I went into them with any idea, it was often changed, and my opinion was shaped throughout the course-

Steven Bartlett 40:30 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 40:30 ... of filming that documentary. I think all too often people think that by instructing people or telling them how they should live their lives they're gonna impact change, and I don't think that's the best way to engage people. I think people switch off. And I think the way in which you communicate is brilliant because you put stuff out there, and people can take to it if, if they connect with it.

Steven Bartlett 40:50 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 40:50 And I think because of that, they do because it's natural, and it's organic, and it's not forced.

Steven Bartlett 40:54 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 40:54 And I think that's really, really important. And I think, you know, you talk about... I don't think you have to go to Africa in order to impact change-

Steven Bartlett 41:01 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 41:01 ... because people will be inspired by watching what you two are now-

Steven Bartlett 41:04 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 41:04 ... able to achieve. And that in itself, you almost don't have to... Y- you know, you can just do-

Steven Bartlett 41:10 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 41:10 ... and you will inspire.

Steven Bartlett 41:12 Yeah, this is a cr- this is a crazy thing. And, you know, the thing we have in our society today with young people especially is they all wanna change the world. And they think... And genuinely, I get this all the time. I'll be on stage somewhere, and a kid'll come up to me that looks like me, a l- a young Black kid, and he'll be like, "I wanna be a motivational speaker. How do I do..." And I, I know what the right answer is because I know... I, I look at this kid or, you know, whether it's someone in my Instagram DMs that wants to change the world because they think... I think what I've... The way I've rationalized it is they want to change, they don't wanna change the world, right? They wanna be seen as someone that changed the world because of the admiration that they believe they'll get from that, because of the admiration that they saw me getting. Um, so, in fact, they're, they're not connected to the right thing. If you want to-

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 41:54 No, they're seeking validation.

Steven Bartlett 41:55 Exactly. If they wanted to change the world, if that was their objective, they would actually just be in a, in a lab somewhere working on cancer, for example.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 42:01 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:02 They wouldn't be trying to get on the stage, right? (sighs)

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 42:05 But, like, you ending up on stage is a product of the work you've done. You never worked to get onto that stage.

Steven Bartlett 42:11 Never wanted, never thought about it.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 42:13 No. Exactly.

Steven Bartlett 42:13 It was a byproduct of-

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 42:14 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 42:15 ... m- working on myself, and that's exactly... Yeah, s- thank you actually 'cause I'd lost my train of thought there, and you just picked it back up. (laughs)

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 42:20 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 42:20 That was what I'm saying. I was like, I got on stage because I was focused on something else, right? And, um-... the way that people go on to change the world, I think, is because they work on themselves, they fix themselves. So that kid, my advice prop- to him probably would be like, go and like, pursue your passions. And in fact, all of my, um, idols are on stage because they didn't copy anybody else.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 42:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:41 They thought they could make, you know, pocket computers and that black was equal to white in terms of racial relations, Martin Luther King, you know, they... And they, they pursued their own thoughts and their own feelings. They, they didn't replicate, um, people.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 42:55 But then that's the, we live in an age where people live almost comparatively.

Steven Bartlett 42:59 Of course, yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 43:00 And it's, it's, it's, you know-

Steven Bartlett 43:01 Such a shame.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 43:01 ... I mean, you know, it's such a shame. We have this incredible thing called the internet where we can communicate with people in any corner of the world, give or take-

Steven Bartlett 43:09 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 43:09 ... and we use it to post Facetune pictures. We, we don't.

Steven Bartlett 43:12 Oh God, yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 43:13 But you know, it's a, it, there's, there's, there's a, a brilliant tool there. And, and when harnessed and used correctly, it, it can bring about good things.

Steven Bartlett 43:21 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 43:22 Um, and it's like anything, you know. Like I was eating McDonald's in bed last night-

Steven Bartlett 43:25 Uh-oh. I didn't see it on your Instagram. (laughs)

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 43:27 Really? It is on my Instagram.

Steven Bartlett 43:29 It's actually?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 43:29 I was complaining about the absence of fries in my large fries.

Steven Bartlett 43:32 You're joking.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 43:32 It's on my Instagram story. Uh-

Steven Bartlett 43:34 Last night?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 43:35 Yep, last night. I was like, let's avoid the fact that I'm eating McDonald's in bed and talk about where the rest of my fries are. I was devastated. W- why order a large fries if you're gonna get delivered a small fries and a large? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 43:45 On his Instagram. (laughs)

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 43:47 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 43:47 And then the next one's about gut health. (laughs)

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 43:49 Yeah. Balance, bro.

Steven Bartlett 43:50 That's hilarious. That's great. (laughs)

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 43:51 But balance is re- I think balance is key. And I think all too often, like especially with and, and kind of moving into this sector now, anything that, that involves nutrition or, or supplementing or... I fucking hate #wellnessworld, man. Like, the tone of it.

Steven Bartlett 44:07 I've missed that one, thankfully.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 44:08 It just like, that, that kind of the softness of that and the, the, the, the approach to life that just having a green juice is gonna correct everything.

Steven Bartlett 44:16 (laughs)

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 44:16 It's gonna save the world. It's gonna save you. Like, fuck off. Do you know? It's, it's the wrong approach to everything. And it, I think everything is too, um... It, it becomes quite divisive, you know. I, I, I, I believe in wellness, therefore I'm not gonna indulge in any of the things which I used to find fun-

Steven Bartlett 44:35 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 44:35 ... because now I'm gonna take care of myself. Me taking care of myself involves me having a blowout once in a while with my friends a- and, and suffering the hangover that comes with it to remind myself why I don't do it all the time-

Steven Bartlett 44:47 (laughs)

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 44:47 ... and the waste of time afterwards because I can't function as, as, as, you know, as highly as I would normally, you know. Um, but I just think there's, there, there has to be a balance struck. It's, it's, all too often people write, "If you wanna, you know, you can't... Don't just cut back on meat. You have to be vegan." You know, there, there's so much instruction out there, whereas that-

Steven Bartlett 45:07 And it's all contradictory as well. So you don't know what the fuck you're doing. Right.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 45:09 So much, so much of it is, man. And it's like, you know, you've got vegans who will g-... You know, I mean, is, is cocaine vegan? How many vegans do-

Steven Bartlett 45:16 (laughs)

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 45:16 How many vegans that go out on a Friday, or when we could go out on a Friday night, and would do cocaine and, you know, there's not a gram of cocaine, if it actually has cocaine in it, it doesn't have a dead body attached to it?

Steven Bartlett 45:26 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 45:27 Where are your, you know, w- what, where's your mor- where is your moral compass now?

Steven Bartlett 45:32 Yeah. Virtue signaling to, at, at its finest. Um, you,

Steven Bartlett 45:35 you talked about your documentary e- uh, then, and I, I, one of the things that when I watched your documentary really stuck out to me was you recounted the last conversation you had with your dad.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 45:44 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 45:45 And it, um, it stuck out to me because I reflect on my own relationships with my parents and I was, it made me think about the last conversation I had with my parents. My parents are getting old, especially my dad. Um, can you talk a little bit about that and your feelings towards that conversation now?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 46:00 Yeah. So my, I'd opened, I said I would never ever make myself vulnerable as far as my, my dad again. Um, and by that I mean I would never give him the opportunity to let me down. Um, and then I did.

Steven Bartlett 46:15 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 46:15 Uh, and it was just before Christmas that we spoke, and we agreed to meet up the day after Boxing Day. Um, I was sat at the food court of the shopping center in Walthamstow, uh, with my then partner at the time, Theo. I can remember it so vividly. Um, and I called him to make arrangements for the next day. Uh, I wasn't driving. He had moved to Brentwood. Um, he was driving and I said, "So are you gonna come and see me tomorrow?" And he was like, "Oh," uh, mentioned the name of his, uh, wife, um, now widow, and said, "Oh, you know, her and the kids would really love to see ya." They were his stepchildren. They have no relation to me. Um, and I was like, "This ain't about..." And this is the first time that I ever... I was always too scared to speak up to him about how I felt because I at times blamed myself or worried that I was the reason that he would disappear for a year and a half, two years at a time and not see me. Um, so I would never speak up and tell him how much it hurt every time he did that. And this time I went, "This is not about me coming to play happy families. This is about..." And I was 18. Like, "This is about you and I sitting down and having a conversation as adults and trying to see if there's a way in which we can move forward and forge some sort of relationship with trust."

Steven Bartlett 47:31 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 47:32 Um, and he was like, "Oh, what, uh, actually, you know what? If you, if I ever see you again, I'm gonna knock you out." Um, and I wouldn't. I'd have bawled my eyes out and given him a hug. Um, but I was right to feel that anger because he had hurt me so, so, so much, so many times throughout my entire life. Um, and that's what I meant about it being cumulative, you know. It was that constant. It was him being in and out of my life, him being the parent that I favored, him being such a kind, generous, gorgeous man, but being such a shit father, you know. That was cumulative. It wasn't any one moment. It was all of the moments that he wasn't there, that he missed, that he let me down. All the days spent looking out of my front room window which looked right at the bus stop that he should've got off of a bus at-

Steven Bartlett 48:20 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 48:20 ... um, to come and see me when he never showed up. You know, it was all of that that added up to that moment. And I, people are like, "Wow, do you wish you could go back in time and change what your last words to him were?" No, of course not, because that anger was just-... you know?

Steven Bartlett 48:34 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 48:35 How could I not be that angry? Why should I feel guilt over his actions or lack of actions, you know? I can own that, and I'm fine with it, and I don't feel like I should feel any which way about saying that to him because I was, uh, it, me being that angry was justified.

Steven Bartlett 48:53 I, I mean, like, uh, if... I don't think a lot of people would have, um, even been trying to rectify the situation at that point, right? I know a lot of my friends who won't even entertain a conversation with their, with their biological fathers or mothers because they were absent.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 49:08 Mm-hmm. But have the conversation, though. Get to a point where, where, where-

Steven Bartlett 49:12 (sighs)

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 49:12 ... where you can let go of... And don't... But yet, the problem is, right, they have a narrative that they have to justify themselves. And this is something that I've, I've learned. So, so they have a narrative that... And I still have this with members of my family now. I- if we get into that conversation about the past-

Steven Bartlett 49:29 Mm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 49:29 ... they have a narrative which justifies their every choice, which makes it okay, that they have to have to live with... Because I haven't dealt with this shit yet. They're not gonna deal with this shit. You know? If they were gonna deal with this shit, they would have done it. The chances of me getting those people into, you know, through the door to see a therapist, nil. Not happening. Um, me taking that step and sorting my shit out doesn't mean that I can sort their shit out. It doesn't mean that if I make the room and give them the forgiveness that they're gonna be able to accept that forgiveness and be honest with me because they still have to hold onto that narrative to justify their decisions, because they haven't made amends with their decisions, and I, I can't expect them to.

Steven Bartlett 50:12 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 50:12 So they own-

Steven Bartlett 50:13 And you can't need that.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 50:14 I can't. And I can't. Uh, but I can't need that because if I need that, I'm always going to be underwhelmed, offended, upset-

Steven Bartlett 50:21 Bitter, yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 50:21 ... let down, and bitter, and I don't wanna be any of those things, not in the least of all now I have a child that I want... You know, the great thing is my child is born into a world where it's me and my partner, uh, and she's amazing. She's incredible and has done, you know, a lot of the same work that I have in order to get to the place where she's at in her life. And we have this peace because we're able to have open conversations. We're able to discuss things rationally. We're able to be wrong. There's room. We make room for each other to be wrong, you know? We make room for each other to be upset, no matter how irrational. We give each other room and space and time, and we're considerate, and we're kind, and we don't... You know, we, we try our best not to, to revert to a child and be defensive and offensive because of that. Um, and, you know, it, it's why we've had a child-

Steven Bartlett 51:17 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 51:18 ... because we feel safe with each other.

Steven Bartlett 51:20 On that point of, like, moving on, so people... In our lives, we all have to m- to move on from things, whether it's a relationship, whether it's trauma, whether it's things that happened w- you know, with our parents, whatever. Um, people f- tend to think that... You know, they use this phrase a lot. One of my friends was saying it to me the other day. "I just need closure." And I, I just... I remember thinking, "Oh, f- you're fucked then if you-"

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 51:40 You're fucked. You are fucked. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 51:42 Yeah. (laughs) 'Cause what is closure? Closure is insecurity about what happened. And, uh, uh, a lot of the time, especially in romantic situations-

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 51:48 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 51:48 ... basically, someone has walked out the door with your self-esteem, and what you're saying is, "I can't move on until they come back and give it to me-"

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 51:54 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 51:55 "... until they justify why they cheated or they explain to me..." You know, 'cause it's all... And it's like... I was just... I, I think I wrote on my Instagram. I was like, "Closure, closure is a choice, ultimately." Closure isn't, you know?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 52:05 It is. Well, if you need closure, close the door.

Steven Bartlett 52:07 Yeah. Exactly, yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 52:07 You do. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:07 Yeah. That's your choice, right?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 52:08 You find closure in closing the door. Yeah, it is, because if you're cons-... You're, you're still giving over too much of yourself to someone else.

Steven Bartlett 52:14 Yeah. They're in... They got the keys, right?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 52:16 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:16 (laughs)

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 52:16 Like, why are you doing that? Why are you handing over that power to someone who doesn't even want it anymore? They've left.

Steven Bartlett 52:22 Yeah, it's true.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 52:22 You know? Why are you... But then it's also... You can... People also find themselves in this situation where they try and take responsibility for other people's actions. It's good to take responsibility for your actions.

Steven Bartlett 52:31 Mm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 52:32 Um, if you've provoked something, then, you know, you can look at maybe being responsible for how someone's reacted because you've prompted that-

Steven Bartlett 52:39 Mm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 52:39 ... you've provoked that. But trying to take responsibility for someone else's actions, you'll drive yourself crazy because you can't take responsibility for everything that everyone does. Pe- we all make our own choices.

Steven Bartlett 52:50 Mm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 52:51 And that, again-

Steven Bartlett 52:52 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 52:52 ... is, is not a good place to find yourself. And always wanting to understand is like why, why, why do we have to understand everything? People make choices. We're complex. There are so many variables in our lives. The only thing you can do is introduce less variables. And that's been quite easy during the last year because, you know, I don't have to walk into crowded rooms full of people that I don't know.

Steven Bartlett 53:13 Yeah. (laughs)

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 53:13 So when I have socialized, when it's been allowed, it's been amongst people that I want to see.

Steven Bartlett 53:18 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 53:18 Therefore, less variables. The situation is more predictable.

Steven Bartlett 53:22 Mm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 53:22 You know? I'm kind of more aware of the outcome.

Steven Bartlett 53:24 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 53:25 And if you, you, you apply that to life, you know, you, if you... We all too often, though, we, we, we make excuses, not just for ourself... And I hate excuses. Um, it's why I don't like being late to anything. Um, even if there is a valid reason, you know? It, it makes me anxious. I hate excuses. But we all too often make excuses for other people. "Oh, that's just Darren," you know?

Steven Bartlett 53:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's who he is, yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 53:48 "That's just how Darren is." But there's gonna come a point where Darren just being Darren is gonna have you respond disproportionately because you've not made clear with Darren that he's overstepping the line, so he's got no idea.

Steven Bartlett 53:59 Mm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 53:59 And then he oversteps the line the eighth time, and you respond, but you respond for all eight times at once, and Darren's...

Steven Bartlett 54:05 Yeah. Whoa.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 54:06 Whoa! You could've told me the first time.

Steven Bartlett 54:08 Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 54:08 You know? And we could've had a rational conversation, but actually, you've allowed it to escalate to a point where you've, you know, held onto this thing that Darren's done every time he's done it and then exploded because you're not comfortable having awkward conversations, because you find them awkward. When actually, if someone can't handle a direct and honest conversation and a rational conversation, is that someone that encourages you to be your best self? Like, I don't wanna surround myself with naysayers or people who deflect or who hide from things. I, in my life now, cannot... I don't have the time for the bullshit. I really don't. It-I like direct conversations. I like friendships where we are able to be honest, where if my friend, you know, I don't have a huge group of friends now. I know a fuck ton of people, but the people that I do... Like if I, if someone online calls me a twat, from, I don't know, Greg from Skegness, I don't give a fuck. He doesn't know me. His opinion of me is made up of whatever he's read or seen and the dots that he's joined. He's built the rest of-

Steven Bartlett 55:10 And his own, his own bullshit.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 55:10 He's, yeah, and his own bullshit-

Steven Bartlett 55:12 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 55:12 ... that he's projecting, right? But if m- my best friend Felix says, "Stephen, y- you need to check yourself," I'm, I'm gonna check myself, you know? And it's important to have those people around you. You need to be able to... If you don't have honest relationships with people and open dialogue, they're not real relationships.

Steven Bartlett 55:29 It's hard though when you've had some success, right? Did

Steven Bartlett 55:33 you even find that in your own friendship circle? I think I found that a little bit where because I, I had success and some of my closest friends actually ended up, they worked at my company and that's how they became some of my be- my best friends.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 55:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 55:44 So I didn't know them before the company, but like, I wa- you work with someone side by side for ten years and they become-

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 55:49 Inevitably they-

Steven Bartlett 55:50 Yeah. Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 55:50 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 55:51 And I, but I was always the boss, so I've always, I've always worried that because I had that like, I was like the pack leader in my little group of friends, that they might not check me all the time when I needed to be checked.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 56:03 Right.

Steven Bartlett 56:04 So this was something-

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 56:04 Because they feel like you know best.

Steven Bartlett 56:06 They know I know best, and because I've always been like the boss, I've always been-

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 56:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 56:10 ... like I've always been the one in charge. I've always been the one leading them as well. So it's like...

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 56:13 So for, for me stepping into business now, it's really important for me to have, um, coworkers that will challenge me. I don't want someone that just goes, "Okay, that's not working, we'll stop that." I want someone to go, "Yes. The- that's not, that is underperforming at the moment, but given a chance, in two months you're gonna see results from that because you're gonna build and grow your audience." I need educating on that because-

Steven Bartlett 56:33 Sure.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 56:33 ... that's not my, that's not my forte, you know? That's not my skillset. Um, and so you need coworkers and friends that will challenge you.

Steven Bartlett 56:41 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 56:42 You know, and I, I believe in challenge, healthy challenge because an opinion is not an opinion, it's an idea until it's challenged, you know? So if I say, you know, "I believe we should go this way," and you say, "Do you really?" And then I explain why, I've stood on the table for it.

Steven Bartlett 56:56 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 56:56 So now it's my opinion and I know it's my opinion, but up until that point it was just an idea. It was a belief, but not necessarily a correct one.

Steven Bartlett 57:03 And when you started to see success in your life, were there people in your circle that were friend, people you considered to be friends, that were clearly not happy for you?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 57:14 One of the best bits of a- of advice I was ever given was by, um, a rapper, but he was a friend of mine, Skinnyman, who said to me, "A real friend, uh, of yours will never be of hindrance to you." And there were definitely people who weren't as comfortable with me not being in the same situation that they were in doing the same things.

Steven Bartlett 57:30 A lot of people deal with this. I got a call yesterday from one of my best friends and he said, "One of my friends is just complete... Just unfollowed me on all, all the social platforms." And I said, "Why is that?" And he goes, "Well, I think it's because like I've started to do really well and he, it, it's a reflection, he thinks it's a reflection on him. He thinks it means he's a piece of shit because I'm succeeding."

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 57:45 Or an attack on.

Steven Bartlett 57:46 Yeah, this is just... And I, I, this is a conversation that don't, people don't have enough, but at any point in your life when you, when you divert from the like the path, especially the path that you share with your closest friends-

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 57:57 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 57:58 ... quite often there will be some kind of force from them to try and pull you back to them.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 58:04 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 58:04 And say, "Don't... Who the fuck do you think you are, Stephen?"

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 58:06 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 58:06 "Get back in line."

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 58:07 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 58:09 And have you, did you experience that at any point where, especially when your music career started to really take off and...

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 58:13 It's difficult because you can't take everyone everywhere.

Steven Bartlett 58:16 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 58:16 Um, and there's almost an expectation to. And I, I'm a firm believer in, in opportunity, like giving people opportunities. And then beyond that it, it's up to them what they do with that.

Steven Bartlett 58:29 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 58:29 Like I, I'm someone who's not... I've had situations with people where I've seen them have opportunities but they've been too insecure to take them because they felt like they're putting themselves beneath someone else. I don't have that problem. It, I, I wanna learn from you. If you're further along in your career and I'm trying to not mimic what you're doing but I want to be successful in the se- so you're a musician that's-

Steven Bartlett 58:53 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 58:53 ... ahead of me and you're willing to take me on tour with you.

Steven Bartlett 58:56 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 58:57 I'm not gonna say no to that because I'm insecure and I don't want to appear to-

Steven Bartlett 59:01 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 59:01 ... I don't want to be the support act. I'm gonna say yes because I want to come along on that ride and I'm grateful for the opportunity that you're giving me. Some people don't have that mindset. Some people don't want to learn from other people. They think they know it all or they're, they're ultimately scared and insecure. They, they feel like they look smaller by putting themselves as a support or by having someone feature on a song or by accepting help.

Steven Bartlett 59:22 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 59:22 Um, whereas for me it's always been a, you know, like when Mike Skinner signed me and I had the opportunity to go on tour with him and battle at every stop of his 12 Rounds Tour when he was at the height of his success, you know, I didn't feel any which way about doing that. I, I was, you know, I was really, really grateful for the opportunity to go along and learn in the same way that when Lily said to me, "Oh, let me do the chorus on, on Just Be Good To Green and we can perform it live at Bestival in front of 60,000 people." Bro, I was still selling cocaine.

Steven Bartlett 59:52 (laughs)

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 59:54 And you know, I'd graduated from weed to coke to, at that point because I had all of a sudden after I signed to Mike Skinner's record label, developed this circle of, you know, model bookers and musicians and you know, who all took it, and weed is large and smells a lot.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:10 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:00:10 Coke is quite easy to move around and, you know, I, I would never have got caught unless in transit, so it became quite an obvious decision for me to make because those things were normalized where I grew up anyway.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:21 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:00:21 I never sold crack or smack because I don't believe in dealing with people in the most desperate situations they've ever been in, day in, day out.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:27 Some good news. My debut book, Happy Sexy Millionaires, just become a Sunday Times bestseller. Um, but that's not what I wanna talk about. Um, I just wanted to give credit where credit is due to Fiverr because all of the assets that I've used to promote the book, like the graphics, the cover photos, um, assets on Instagram, some of my stories have been designed using freelancers on fiverr.com. That's F-I-V-E-R-R.com.It's the most cost-effective way that I've ever found of flexibly expanding the capacity of my team. And the quality of freelancers on Fiverr is staggering. One of the things I don't think people appreciate enough is you can actually also extend the time zone of your team by working with freelancers on different time zones that work while you're asleep. Not only is your capacity being extended, but the hours that you're productive as a team in a day can be extended. And if you've never heard of Fiverr or you've never used it for a project, there's a link in the description below. Click on it, check it out, and if you've got any projects coming up, whether it's podcasting or content or websites or branding or a voiceover, anything, Fiverr is your answer.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:34 (page turns) When you think of Shoreditch, what do you think?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:01:36 Um, people pissing up people's doorsteps.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:39 Interesting. (laughs) That's my home.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:01:41 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:01:43 I was, I was, I was at- I was wondering if the, just the term Shoreditch alone would, um, would make you think about the scar you have.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:01:49 Ah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:53 (laughs) No, you said pissing up doorsteps.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:01:54 Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, it don't, yeah, it don't... It's weird, man. There's, there's, like, I got hit by a car in 2013, um-

Steven Bartlett 1:02:03 Fucking hell.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:02:03 Yeah, it was ... Well, I got squashed between two cars. I managed to get myself up on the bonnet, so it was only my left leg that got caught. The bloke didn't realize his car was in eco 'cause it was a new car. So he'd had his foot on the brake, which put the car in eco. He took his foot off the brake as I was walking between two cars, um, and he felt the engine start, so he panics and slammed his foot down, but instead of hitting the brake, he hit the accelerator.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:23 You're joking.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:02:24 Um, and that was a far more traumatic event for me, um, than being stabbed because that was really unpredictable. Nothing came before that that I contributed to. Um, when I got stabbed, look, when I, I think I was eight when Chesty, someone from my flats who, he, he don't live in the country anymore, um, he got bottled and stabbed and one of my pals, Jamal, who was younger than me, ran and ... I might have been nine, 'cause I think Jams was like seven, and he ran and called the ambulance for Chesty. Like, this stuff happened, you know. Um, I didn't expect to get stabbed by someone I didn't know, that I had no history with. It, it was, it didn't really feel like retribution for what had just happened. There was a little bit of bickering. He said I barged his mate. It was proper stupid, young bravado, macho shit-

Steven Bartlett 1:03:14 Did it happen in a club?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:03:14 Yeah, in Cargo. Um, and I just stood my ground really, was all I did. That was all I did wrong in that situation, if you even think that's me doing wrong. Um, in hindsight, I could have just gone, "I did op- I didn't barge his mate." I said, "Excuse me," and I moved past with an open hand in a crowded club. I was as polite and as passive as I could have been and always have been.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:33 People don't know when they're drunk, you know?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:03:34 But he was just on one, you get me.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:35 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:03:35 So, um, but then I did, I stood my ground. And in hindsight, like, now at the age I am, and especially with, you know, having a child and just thinking about how I want him to grow up and what I want him to understand being a man to be, um, you know, I could have just gone, "You know what? Sorry, bruv," and been done with it. Um, but I felt like he was threatening me and I felt like I was right to stand my ground. I didn't expect that five minutes after that, he'd walk up behind me and put a broken bottle in my neck. Um, but at least my, my mum and my nan started talking again.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:09 (sighs) I heard you called your, you called your nan.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:04:12 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:13 In that moment?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:04:14 Yeah. So we, we were still fighting outside, so he stabbed me. I managed to push him out the way, get out the club. Holding my neck together, obviously, you've got all kinds of adrenaline running through your body at that point, so you're not really aware of the ... I mean, I know I'd been poked in the neck and it's not really ... If you're gonna get poked, you don't want it to be in your neck.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:33 No, fuck yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:04:33 It doesn't, you know, your chances of survival is not high. Um, and then we got, the fight got broken up. I think there was police outside the club. I think it was broken up by a poli- the whole thing is a bit blurry to me. And then I'm sat on the ... 'Cause I ended up getting arrested as well. Um, but I'm sat on the curb, my phone's come out my pocket, um, and I can see on everyone's faces, you know, this is not, this ain't going well for me.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:56 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:04:56 So I asked to pass my phone, got my phone. I called my nan and I just apologized for all the work she had put into me, that this was how it was gonna end. Um, she just said, "You're gonna be fine. Shut up." And she did actually tell me to shut up.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:11 (laughs)

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:05:11 And well, she's Cockney, so you know.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:12 Yeah. (laughs)

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:05:13 Um, and she just said, "You're gonna be fine. You're gonna be fine." Um, and she came to the hospital, as did my mum, and they both started talking over my table that I was on. Um, and it's kind of weird because when I went to hospital, I was treated like I was some kind of notorious gang member. The, the, the hospital staff were not sympathetic to my situation whatsoever.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:35 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:05:35 Bearing in mind that I'd been stabbed, I never say I'm a victim because I don't believe in approaching life as one. Um, but in that situation, I, I wasn't the, the, what's the word, perpetrator. I wasn't the aggressor.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:47 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:05:48 Um, so it was a bit weird, the whole thing, you know, to just be, it be presumed that I was just part of something that came out of nowhere. It had nothing to do with no gang, nothing, no dealing, nothing, no, no historic problems from anywhere.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:03 (laughs)

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:06:03 It was just something that happened randomly. But no, that's not even what I associate Shoreditch with. Um, as well as pissing up doorsteps, I think of New Balance trainers and beards.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:11 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:06:12 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:12 Do you know, when I, when I listen to that story about what happened with, uh, that guy in the club, it brought me back to a time which I've never talked about before in my own life where I was in New York in a club and there was two tables, uh, in this nightclub and I was on one of them with a couple of my friends, one of the guys that runs Matchroom Boxing, and there was this table of guys from Jersey next to us. And the guys on my table were talking to the girls on their table.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:06:37 Oh, dear.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:37 And they, they became this altercation. So I had ba- I knew the bouncers in this club because I go there all the time. So I said to the, the owner and the bouncer, I was like, "There's gonna be a problem here if you don't move this table."

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:06:46 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:46 And as I'm speaking to the manager, the guy from the table next to me picks up a three-liter bottle of vodka-

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:06:53 Christ.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:53 ... and hits me on the head with it.I'm surrounded by... So the, the, the, the... I'm so good with these bouncers, like, I've sent them Man United shirts and I'm li- I n- these people know me.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:07:04 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:04 I'm always in the club, I'm always on the same table, that kind of thing. The big boun- bouncer must be fucking seven foot, massive Black guy, they're my boys, we talk about United every time I come in there, like them boys. He reaches over the crowd of bouncers that I, that I'm chatting to, t- on my table, and he hits me with this bottle of voca... And I go, "See." 'Cause I was telling them two, I was like, "There's gonna be-

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:07:22 (laughs) .

Steven Bartlett 1:07:22 "If you don't move these two tables, there's g-" I go, "See." And as I'm looking, blood, 'cause I'm wearing this cap-

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:07:27 Oh, mate.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:27 ... blood just comes trickling down my face. But again, I did nothing to instigate this, this s- situation and I, when I s- reading about what happened to you, and you ended up in hospital and it, you know, it risked your life, I was thinking, "What is the lesson here? How do you avoid these situations where..."

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:07:41 Variables. Y- you know, and that's the thing, uh, i- i- you, you walk into a room like that and there, there are many variables. There's-

Steven Bartlett 1:07:48 Yeah.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:07:48 ... any, anything can happen, you know, you know? And for me, I was always like, I was always someone that scanned the room, I always wanted to know... I don't like sitting with my back to doors, never have. Um, I, I, I still half sleep with one eye open, it's why I've always suffered with sleep problems, I think because of... And that's my own doing to an extent, you know, because of some of the stuff that I used to do and I was by no means like heavy, heavy, heavy-

Steven Bartlett 1:08:10 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:08:10 ... into things. I just sold a bit a this and a bit of that because it enabled me to finance life while I worked towards what I wanted to do. If there was another commodity that I was aware of that I coulda sold that wasn't-

Steven Bartlett 1:08:22 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:08:22 ... illegal, I would've done it. Um...

Steven Bartlett 1:08:25 And that guy, he got eight years, right?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:08:27 Yeah, that was a whole mad situation though because they moved the trial date to when I was on tour, so this was two years later that it went to court, right? Um, I get a phone call on the Friday when I'm in Newcastle and they tell me when, from a police officer, and they tell me when the trial date is and I just said, "Do you know what? I'm so far past that, you know, I, I really don't care, like, I'm not coming to court." And they said, "Well, we know where you are, we know what your next two tour dates are," they were Brighton and London, I think, "Um, and we'll issue a summons. We won't arrest you."

Steven Bartlett 1:09:10 If you don't come to court?

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:09:11 Yeah. Um, and I cried, bro. I was in a conundrum because, um... See this is where... I've never spoken about this. This is where, like, my moral compass struggled because you don't snitch.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:30 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:09:30 You know? They had four other witnesses, they had DNA, they had CCTV, the last thing they needed in court was me, but what do they get from me being there? They get press.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:39 Mm-hmm.

Professor Green (Stephen Manderson) 1:09:39 Um, and then I get told by my record label, my TV plugger, my radio plugger, that I'll basically be looked at as an advocate for knife crime if