Queer Eye Star Opens Up About Hitting Rock Bottom: Jonathan Van Ness

1. 0:00 – 2:45

   Intro

   1. JNJonathan Van Ness0:00

      I think it's actually still kind of hard for me to talk about, but I am down to go there. Your square chin makes me feel safe. (laughs) Jonathan Van Ness! Woo! Comedian and beauty stylist you know from Queer Eye. What's our mission, honey? The conversation starts on a corn field in rural Illinois. Being a queer, effeminate child was hard. There was sexual abuse and there was bullying, but all that trauma came back in the most self-destructive era. I had my face in a plate of coke, then I discovered sex work and I got HIV. I put myself in so many really dangerous situations.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:35

      Someone pulled a gun on you.

   3. JNJonathan Van Ness0:36

      Uh-huh.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:36

      Take me into that moment. (gun cocks) You start out hairdresser, and now your name is on the marquee of Radio City. Schedule's been crazy, how are you feeling?

   5. JNJonathan Van Ness0:45

      Grateful, and at the same time, really frustrated. I just see so much transphobic garbage all over the place. People really think that there's little kids going to school as a boy and coming home as a girl. This is really serious, and so this has been a really hard time. And I think being a public figure who is constantly expected to be a ray of fucking sunshine, it can be challenging. But why I've been able to get to where I am is, like, 'cause I think I'm resilient. I have been able to sit with a lot of shame, and, like, a lot of heartbreak, and still be joyful. Can you talk about your trauma without becoming your trauma? Do I get to ask the question to the next person?

   6. SBSteven Bartlett1:20

      Yes. And also, they'll t- be turned into cards that people will play with their families and stuff.

   7. JNJonathan Van Ness1:24

      Oh, fuck. So it can't be, "What's the sluttiest thing you've ever done?"

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:26

      (laughs) Jonathan Van Ness's story is an impossible story. Coming from a place of sexual abuse, sex work, depression, and despair, to becoming the leader in his industry. The story you're about to hear is not only hilarious, because that is what Jonathan is, but it's also the evidence that you might need that passion and resilience will take you to the place that you want to go to. This conversation's gonna make you laugh. It's one of the more real conversations I've ever had with anyone on this podcast, because Jonathan doesn't hold back. His story is heart-wrenching. It is unthinkable. And it's incredibly important. Over the last couple of months, there's been this huge rise in the conversation around trans rights, and there's been a huge rise in transphobia. You've probably seen it. Today, I'm gonna ask him about that. Where has it come from? What is the truth? And if you're someone like me that feels quite uncomfortable about the narratives we're seeing in the world, what can we do about it? How can we help? It's time to have that uncomfortable conversation.

2. 2:45 – 7:23

   What shaped you?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:45

      Jonathan.

   2. JNJonathan Van Ness2:46

      Yes.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett2:47

      Where do we need to begin with this conversation to understand you?

   4. JNJonathan Van Ness2:51

      The conversation starts on a corn field in rural Illinois in the late '80s, darling.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett3:02

      What happens next?

   6. JNJonathan Van Ness3:03

      Oh. Um, well, I went to school, my fa- I come from a broadcasting family and, like, a family of journalists. My- I grew up- Uh, my mom, uh, worked in the local newspaper and advertising, and my dad worked in the TV station. Uh, so that's kinda where it started. I was born in 1987, and that was, like, another really interesting time in queer history and what was to come for the next few years, um, being that it was, like, the height of, the height of the AIDS crisis. And I think understanding- Not understanding that, but, um, being a very queer, uh, effeminate small child in that time, um, there was so much, like, anti-queer vitriol then, um, which I didn't, like, know that's what it was called, but I felt it. And it's, so it's interesting being, like, this age now and having, like, this renaissance, not in the Beyonce way of, like, such anti-queer sentiment.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett3:57

      You're fi- five years old when your parents separate.

   8. JNJonathan Van Ness4:00

      Mm-hmm.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett4:01

      What's that like for you?

   10. JNJonathan Van Ness4:03

       I actually just had a joke about this in my new, um, set. My first reaction was, like, "Can I have the ring?" Like, my brothers were really devastated. I just was, like, all about that diamond, like I've always loved jewelry. I was like, "Oh my god, that would look great with my geodes." So I didn't really understand, like, any sort of, like, emotional implication from, like, my parents' divorce. Um, love my dad, love my mom, but I was, like, I kind of- I think I was, like, maybe too young to fully understand. I do think that it ultimately set me on, like, um... Like, my stepdad and I, uh, I- My mom started dating him when I was, like, six, and I write a lot about him in my first book, Over the Top. Um, his name was Steve. And so ultimately, he taught me so much about what it is to be a good person, what it is to have integrity, what it is to ask for help, wh- Um, he had been sober for 28 years when he died in 2012, and he was, like- And he and my dad are both really important to me, but Steve and my dad, like, were really good, um, you know, role models in my life in a lot of ways, and- But it took me, like, from, like, six to, like, 16 to like, like Steve. Uh, but then I eventually, like, really, you know, loved Steve and appreciated him so much for all the things that he taught me.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett5:16

       Shoulder slip.

   12. JNJonathan Van Ness5:17

       Ah, thank you. Ugh, stay out.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett5:20

       Just for context, the shoulder thing is, uh, do you wanna explain, Jonathan?

   14. JNJonathan Van Ness5:23

       Yeah. So it's, like, this gorgeous, like, little, like, tube dress, honey, and what it can give you is this, like, turtleneck moment, but that's giving me too much restriction. It is Pride. So we need the shoulder out 'cause it's really, like, this Issey Miyake moment that's, like, the shoulder's meant to peek-a-boo.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett5:36

       Is that Issey Miyake?

   16. JNJonathan Van Ness5:36

       Yeah.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett5:37

       Oh, that's beautiful.

   18. JNJonathan Van Ness5:38

       Pretty, right?

   19. SBSteven Bartlett5:39

       Yeah, I love Issey.

   20. JNJonathan Van Ness5:39

       I don't wanna scream in the microphone. I just get so excited talking about dresses.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett5:41

       (laughs) So he's just told us to, uh, uh, what- Contingent on this interview was us letting him know whenever the, the, the, uh, Issey Miyake, uh, number just slides a little too high, we've gotta remind him to slide it down.

   22. JNJonathan Van Ness5:53

       Yeah.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett5:53

       So if we say shoulder, that's what we mean.

   24. JNJonathan Van Ness5:54

       (laughs)

   25. SBSteven Bartlett5:55

       Um, how did you get on with your peers when you were that age? Did you feel like you fit- fitted in, per se?

   26. JNJonathan Van Ness6:00

       Mm, no.No. Um, but I did have some really good friends and some people who I- I think I kno- I, I knew really early that friendship was really important, so I always had, like, some really close friends. Um, but a lot of times I think there was, like, you know, quite a bit of, like, widespread bullying. But I think that that really hit a fever pitch, like, more, like, you know, like, sixth grade, like post-sixth grade. Like, maybe pre that, there was, like, little murmurings and, like, a little bit of weirdness. But I, I think kids are, like, so young at that age that they're not really, like... Or at least in my case, it wasn't, like, that horrific. Um, bullying wise at the time, it was more like post-sixth grade, I feel like. But also it's, like, so funny, I just noticed this, like, part of me that's like... Like, being 36 and still talking about it, like, I feel like-

   27. SBSteven Bartlett6:48

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JNJonathan Van Ness6:48

       ...'cause I have processed so much of it and I've worked so hard on letting go of a lot of that. And, um, so, like for me, it doesn't really hold a lot of, like... Like Brené Brown, she talks about like, you know, "Can you talk about your trauma without becoming your trauma?" And I think in, uh, like, I think it's actually still kind of hard for me to talk about. Like, I have this, like, harder part that kind of comes up and is like, ugh. Like, I just don't like going there. But I am down to go there. Your square chin makes me feel safe.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett7:20

       Mm-hmm.

   30. JNJonathan Van Ness7:20

       But yeah. You know what I'm saying?
3. 7:23 – 10:06

   Not fitting in

   1. SBSteven Bartlett7:23

      take me there. You take me to where you wanna go because I, I, um, in my own experience only Black kid in an all white school. I grew up in Devon in the Southwest, which is like the countryside. So I remember the feelings of just constant... 'Cause it's a small town as well and you are different, this constant feeling of almost constant state of fi-... Like, my body was always in s- fight or flight almost.

   2. JNJonathan Van Ness7:43

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett7:43

      Just, like, subtly.

   4. JNJonathan Van Ness7:44

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett7:45

      And I read, I read hints of that in your story, but please do tell me, um, what your experience was.

   6. JNJonathan Van Ness7:50

      No, that totally, that absolutely resonates. I think... I also write a lot about, like, this idea that, like, um, like, a lot of, like, joy and, like, happiness can coexist with grief and, like, shame. Like, these emotions don't necessarily, like, invalidate each other.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett8:04

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JNJonathan Van Ness8:04

      So even though I did have, um, a lot of hardships and there was abuse and there was bullying and there was a lot of othering, like, I think that's why I'm still so obsessed with figure skating and gymnastics. Like, when figure skating and gymnastics was on the TV, I was the happiest person of all time. Like, none of the other things mattered. So I think those kind of moments of, like, escapism, like, were these really healing moments why even now as an adult, like, those types of things are so exciting for me-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett8:28

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JNJonathan Van Ness8:28

       ...and I'm just, like, so into it 'cause it... I think it, like, it, it strikes at, like, that core memory of, like, just being really into something else. Um, which I'm glad I'm still into that, even though I'm, like, more into my life now than I was in, obviously. Like, I did get out of there and I did... Like, you know, a lot of my dreams came true.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett8:46

       The escapism. What... In that situation, what were you escaping from?

   12. JNJonathan Van Ness8:50

       Feeling, like, really... I mean, I, I was, like I said, a really queer kid in a very, like, cishet world. So my hometown is, like... My family was, like, quite well-known in my hometown, and I was really, like, unabashedly myself. (laughs) And so there was a lot of, like, feedback from that as I got older. So that, I think that was, like, a lot of... And I also was, you know, abused. I'm a survivor of sexual abuse, so there was, like... Like, I would hear about, like, other kids and, like, you know, whether it was, like, poverty or, like, see it on the news, like, kids or, like, even just, like, kids at school, like, you know there's, like, kids at school who, like, clearly are going through it and, like, do not have the access to the resources that you have. Um, but meanwhile, I was, like, definitely having people call me faggot, definitely being sexually abused. Um, and I remember thinking like, "Oh, I'm glad I don't have it as bad as, like..." You know? (laughs) So it's like, it's interesting how, like, our perspective, like, is, like... Just so funny, like, it's like when you're a kid, you just don't have anything to compare it to. But looking back to it, on it, I'm like, I think of my little inner child and, like, all the things that... My nickname growing up was Jack, like, what he went through. And I'm like, "Oh my God, honey. That was, like, so intense." You know? Like, just growing up, like, there and, like, and having... Yeah. It's intense.

4. 10:06 – 12:50

   The impact of being sexually abused

   1. JNJonathan Van Ness10:06

   2. SBSteven Bartlett10:06

      You've been really open about, um, the incident of sexual abuse that you experienced and how that had a sort of cascading impact on the rest of your life. Is there a point where you, where someone around you highlights the significance of that to you at that age?

   3. JNJonathan Van Ness10:22

      No. I think that the problem with, um, like, sexual abuse is so many... And I, you know, I don't, like, blame anyone for this 'cause it's just, like, what happens that there's such this, like, an, um, insistence on, like s- like, not talking about it. You know, like, like, don't let anyone find out. And I understand that because, like, you... Like, it's like you just don't want people to find out, like, whether it's, like, bringing shame on the church or bringing shame on, like, why didn't anyone prevent this. So it's like it... I don't think it was, like... I think we just all wanted to, like, just get through it, and I don't think any... Like, there's so much shame and stigma tied up in sexual abuse that I think when it happens you're... But at the same time, like, my mom was... Really wanted to deal with things, like, in a very head-on way and, like, really wanted... It was, like, therapy. Like, "We gotta get..." Like, once she knew she was like, "Fuck it," like, "We gotta..." Like, but then there was, like, other forces and, like, other people in, you know, our lives that were like, "I don't think..." And whether that was, like, church leaders or other people that were like, "I don't think that's really..." You know, like, "What happens if you taunt? Is it you really want your kid to be, like, you know, ta-" It's so... There... And especially in, like, small rural spaces, and I think that's part of what makes me so angry when we think about... Um, you know, when people would say, you know, that trans people are, you know, groomers or drag queens or, like, all these idea that, like, queer people are groomers. Like, there is so much sexual abuse in churches. There is so much sexual abuse in rural communities, in urban communities, in all the communities. And when you look at the statistics, most often it is, like, a man that you know. It is, like, a man in the family, a man in the church, a friend of the family. It's someone that you know. It's, like, not random queer people. Um, and I just think...... part of why we have these, like, fantastical ideas of, like, these threats to our kids is because of the thing that I was just speaking about, that, like, we don't talk about what really happens, 'cause we wanna keep it private-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett12:17

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JNJonathan Van Ness12:17

      ... and we wanna keep things really inside. And so when you're... Like, um, when you're d- drawing... Like, it just, it makes it... Uh, and also, it's like this, like, smoke and mirrors thing. When you're saying that it's one thing, it's like gaslighting really from this whole other thing, which in this case is like the pervasive sexual abuse in churches, in, um, you know, in families, in communities, that is just so, you know, not spoken about, and we're over here talking about drag queens and trans people.

5. 12:50 – 17:24

   Going to theraphy since I was 5

   1. JNJonathan Van Ness12:50

   2. SBSteven Bartlett12:50

      You said there that your mother was very, um, proactive with going to therapy and things like that, which is an incredible thing-

   3. JNJonathan Van Ness12:56

      Yeah, so lucky.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett12:57

      ... for, for the time-

   5. JNJonathan Van Ness12:58

      So lucky.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett12:58

      ... especially because e- even now that's quite... Seems it's been quite a progressive thing to do.

   7. JNJonathan Van Ness13:02

      Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett13:02

      But, but back then, when you're 16 years old, for that to be one of the first, sort of, suggestions to take you to therapy seems to be-

   9. JNJonathan Van Ness13:08

      Oh, yeah. Honey, I was in th- therapy when I was five.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett13:10

       What?

   11. JNJonathan Van Ness13:10

       I remember, like, (laughs) comes when my parents got divorced, right? Like, I remember, like, being at therapy when I was so little that, like, I had to, like, look up at my mom like this, like, holding her hand. You know what I'm saying? Like, 'cause when they got divorced, we went to, like, family therapy. So f- like, therapy was always very normalized for me. And my mom, um... I- it's just, like, one of the things I just am so grateful to her for, that she, like, normalized therapy, like, thank God. I don't think I'd be alive without... if she hadn't done that.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett13:35

       What about if I'd asked that, that 16-year-old version of you, "What, what are you gonna do when you're older?"

   13. JNJonathan Van Ness13:39

       I always knew I wanted to do hair.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett13:40

       Really?

   15. JNJonathan Van Ness13:41

       D- like, but I think my family was like, "You need to go to college." So I was like, maybe I was like, "I'll be a lawyer or something." But then I was like, "Girl, you can't be a lawyer. You're gonna..." I love doing hair. I think I knew I wanted to do hair.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett13:50

       Yeah?

   17. JNJonathan Van Ness13:50

       Yeah.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett13:51

       I, I think about my t- teenage years and I think, "I didn't know the impact." I mean, I used the word formative at the start. I didn't know how I'd been formed until I was an adult and I saw, like, patterns playing out. What were the prints, sort of, that left on you from your earliest years that stayed with you as an adult?

   19. JNJonathan Van Ness14:11

       I think my fir-... Like, I went through... I think one of my big first phases of, like, wanting to understand more about, like, uh, like, my trauma or, like, my story, it was, like, Eckhart Tolle in A New Earth and The Power of Now in, like, 2008 or '09. It was, like, when Oprah was talking about him, and then I was like, "Who's this Eckhart Tolle honey?" And then I read The Power of Now and A New Earth, and I was like-

   20. SBSteven Bartlett14:37

       Hmm.

   21. JNJonathan Van Ness14:38

       ... "Ego. I don't have an ego. What's he talking about?" Then I was like, "Oh, that's just like the story that we tell ourselves." I was like, "So, like, my story is that I'm, like, this, like, gay kid from this little town, and I was, like, abused and like this and that. I loved cheer, and I loved it." Like, really, I'm like the observer of that. Like, "I'm not really that. I'm like this." Like, that was like when I started to learn about like what meditation was and what stillness was. And, um, that really gave me a lot of healing and kind of, like, clarity. And then I g- uh... That didn't last that long, 'cause I did eventually get addicted to meth, like, not that long after that, so. (laughs) But thank God I had that introduction to that tor- sort of healing at that time, because I was able to come back to it. So that, and then I think... So then my stepdad got really sick, the one that I was talking about earlier, um, Steve. He was diagnosed with cancer in, like, 2009, and I was really far away. I was, like, living in LA. They were in Illinois. And I was in a really, um, you know, difficult working situation. I was, like, in my first serious relationship. And then all of those, um, all that trauma manifesting itself was... came back in terms of like, um, my sexual compulsivity. So I'm, like, in love for the first time, and I just, like, was having such a hard time, like, in my first relationship, like, just cheating nonstop and being like a ho- like, which I talk a lot about in my first book.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett15:58

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JNJonathan Van Ness15:59

       Um, and so that was when I was like, "Okay, I really need help." Like, "I don't know." Like, so I'd had that versatile introduction to healing with like Eckhart-

   24. SBSteven Bartlett16:06

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JNJonathan Van Ness16:06

       ... you know, solo, 21, 22. Then Steve gets sick. He ultimately dies. And then it's after that that I'm like, "Really need help." And that's like when I get into therapy. That's when I, um, start to get into 12-step myself. Uh, which I'd... I think being a non-binary queen, anything that's too much this or that, it's like, so sobriety was like, "Oh, I just like... I don't wanna be totally sober." But I did get a lot of healing there. Um, so I'm kind of a harm reduction queen. But... So all through my 20s, I think. And I, and I don't think that we ever get to a place, as much as I wish that we would, where you're just like, "Oh, dealt with my trauma. It's like in a box, and I never have to look at it again, and I never have to deal with it again." And I think it's interesting the ways that your circumstances change and then your trauma or your, you know, that baggage or your ego as Eck- as Eckhart refers to it, will, like, manifest itself in different ways. But I hope that we get, or I hope I get better at, um, like, not identifying with the trauma or the ego, like when it's like being a nightmare, even though that's like also a constant struggle.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett17:04

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JNJonathan Van Ness17:05

       Like, ask my husband. Like, "Where the fuck is my eyeliner?" (laughs)

   28. SBSteven Bartlett17:09

       You went to, um, university, right?

   29. JNJonathan Van Ness17:10

       Mm-hmm.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett17:11

       You-
6. 17:24 – 23:34

   Getting into drugs

   1. JNJonathan Van Ness17:24

   2. SBSteven Bartlett17:24

      Was university or college, I think they call it in the US, um, the first time you got addicted to drugs? Was that the, the first time you started to seriously, sort of experiment with drugs?

   3. JNJonathan Van Ness17:33

      Mm... Does weed count?

   4. SBSteven Bartlett17:37

      Not really.

   5. JNJonathan Van Ness17:38

      Then no. Yes. Yes, then it was. Like I had smoked weed, but that was the first time that I ever did like really intense drugs-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett17:45

      You were away from home though, right?

   7. JNJonathan Van Ness17:46

      ... or more intense drugs. Mm-hmm.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett17:46

      You were, you were away from the s- the small town, the issues of your, your teen years at that point. So what was, um, what was that context and environment like?

   9. JNJonathan Van Ness17:55

      Well, my mom was so right. She was like, "Honey, you're too young." And I was like, "Get fucked, I'm leaving." And honey, I was so too young. Like, I just immediately just had my face in a plate of coke. Like, the first time I saw cocaine, I was like... (sniffs) ... like, the first time I was, like, saw, like... I was like, "That's ecstasy? Give me six!" Um, and then next thing I knew, you know, 'cause like, you, like, my parents got me like that, like, thing that you get at university, like the little, like, campus, like, card for the food. So, they were like, "Your food's paid for. Your dorm's paid for. Like, you really don't need very much money, honey." Like, so like, they, my mom gave me like $300 a month 'cause like everything else was paid for, right?

   10. SBSteven Bartlett18:29

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JNJonathan Van Ness18:29

       Like, what else could you fucking need? Like, I didn't have to work, like, 'cause like they did everything, right? Like, so cool, right? Like, so... But I was like, "Well, how am I supposed to get all messed up on drugs all the time if I only have $300?" Like, that math isn't working. So, right? Like, that's like, that's like two days, you know-

   12. SBSteven Bartlett18:47

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JNJonathan Van Ness18:47

       ... if you're really going out with your friends. Um, so then I just was like, then I discovered, like, sex work, and then I was like, "Oh." Next thing I knew I was, like, pulling tricks to, like, um, get drugs so that I could do more drugs. And then after doing that for a few months, I was like, and I dropped out of college, like, through that. Um, I was like, um, 'cause my mom had cut me off by then. I was like, "Mommy, um, I'm so sorry. I'm like literally selling my body. Like, I feel scared. Like, can you just put some money in the checking account? Like, I'll, I'll drive the car home. I'll be like, I'll just come, I'll, k-, I'll just, I'll be back in three days. Can you just... I'm scared." And she was like, "Jesus, yes. I'm so- my baby." And so she did that. Poor mom, right? Um, and so she did that. Cutely though, like, right before that, I found this kitten in the hood of a car, um, who was my first cat, Bug the First, and honest to God, I write about him too. Like, he really gave me, like, the will to, like, not be a sex worker and... 'Cause at first it was like for funsies for, to just get drugs for partying, right?

   14. SBSteven Bartlett19:49

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JNJonathan Van Ness19:50

       Then once I got cut off, it was like, "No," like, "I don't wanna go back home and, like, show that I fucked up, so I just need to, like, figure it out." But, like, that was really not where I wanted to be. It wasn't like I was, like, doing sex work from a place of empowerment. I was doing it from, like, a place of, like, deep trauma, like, wanting validation, trying to support a drug habit. Like, it was not a good place for, like-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett20:09

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JNJonathan Van Ness20:09

       ... an 18-year-old to be. It was like real-, it was really like... I put myself in so many really dangerous situations.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett20:15

       Someone pulled a gun on you, right?

   19. JNJonathan Van Ness20:16

       Uh-huh. Yeah, it was really, like, really, really dangerous situations. Um, and so, yeah, that was like... I mean, I look back at some of the things that happened and I honestly can't believe that I made it 'cause it was really, like, so touch and go in a lot of situations. Like, one little thing different and it could've... Like, so many situations. But, uh, that's true of anyone, but it was really, you know, traumatizing. But, so I find this little cat and I realize when I find this little cat, I was like, "I want this, I wanna raise this little cat." It was like, this like little black cat in the hood of this car. And, um, but that really was, like, so super healing for me, and I think that started, like... I'm such a little, like, animal parent. I have like five cats and three dogs now with my husband, and that, I really think it was just, like, such a huge, like, turning point. Like, just, like, falling, like, just falling in love with, like, cats and dogs. They're just, like, so healing.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett21:12

       Finding a little cat in the, the boot of a car seems to be trivial, but it's not, is it? Because really what I heard there is, in a moment where you were in a bit of a desperate situation, that cat gave you a reason and, and a purpose.

   21. JNJonathan Van Ness21:26

       Yeah, no-

   22. SBSteven Bartlett21:26

       Just a sense of meaning.

   23. JNJonathan Van Ness21:27

       Yes, and then it has continued to be, like, a huge source of, like, joy and, like, grounding, like, in my life that is, like, really so not trivial. Like, really, really was a huge turning point.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett21:37

       Quick one before we get back to this episode. Just give me 30 seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us, and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people who watch this channel regularly and have hit the subscribe button. It means more than I can say. And if you hit that subscribe button, here's a promise I'm gonna make to you. I'm gonna do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're gonna deliver the guests that you want me to speak to, and we're gonna continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show. Thank you. Thank you so much. Back to the episode. So off you go to hair school.

   25. JNJonathan Van Ness22:25

       Yeah.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett22:26

       Where did you go to L.A.?

   27. JNJonathan Van Ness22:27

       The Aveda Institute of Minneapolis.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett22:29

       Oh, Minneapolis?

   29. JNJonathan Van Ness22:30

       Yeah.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett22:31

       And how, how did that go for you?
7. 23:34 – 27:04

   Hitting rock bottom

   1. SBSteven Bartlett23:34

      How were you doing on a personal level?

   2. JNJonathan Van Ness23:36

      Yeah, like, not-

   3. SBSteven Bartlett23:36

      You're 22 years old.

   4. JNJonathan Van Ness23:37

      Yeah, like, I think it was, I was, I think I was, like, handling the move to L.A. pretty well up until my stepdad got sick and then-

   5. SBSteven Bartlett23:45

      That's when things-

   6. JNJonathan Van Ness23:46

      ... it was like... And then, and then, like, my little, like, healing era came to, like, a screeching halt. Also the relationship. It was like falling in love and my stepdad's diagnosis, like, together. Like, yeah. Much... All my trauma got triggered and was bad.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett24:06

      Was, was there something in, in hindsight that you think could have been done to stop the stepdad's illness situation-... resulting in destructive behavior. Was there, was there, was there therapy needed or a conversation, or was there, uh, was it a lack of a support network or something that could have kind of caught you in a moment where you were, you were falling without really knowing you were falling?

   8. JNJonathan Van Ness24:27

      No. Well, I don't think so 'cause I- I realized that I was, like, doing things sexually at that time that, like, I regretted and, like, I didn't feel good about myself afterwards, and that's how I was kind of like, "Oh, I think this is like a problem." And then, um, and that also kind of started happening, like, right after I met, like my, like the- my first love. And so, and I told him about it. I was honest with him. I got help, um, so he knew. I got a therapist at that time, but like ultimately, like, I wasn't ready to- to deal with it. And so, no, I think that was kind of an interesting lesson of like you can have all the support in the world but if you're not ready to like sit with your stuff, like it, nothing's gonna move you. But, um, he- it wasn't until he left me and, uh, Steve died that I, and I got HIV, that I was like, "Okay, I really want to like not do this anymore." And that was when I ultimately like was able to get better, but I needed to really... I did it with a lot of support, but I needed to hit rock bottom and then get the support.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett25:37

      I hear that a lot, you know. I hear this. I remember approaching, um... Got a friend who was in the- in the public spotlight and I was trying to figure out how I could help them because they clearly were, and are, in a difficult situation. So I approached their management and said, "What can I do to be a s- supportive in this situation?" Their management said to me, "We've been here quite a few times, and in fact until the person wants to make a change, um, they won't, and often we have to let the person hit rock bottom before change will happen." And I remember, at first hearing that, being really uncomfortable with that, the idea that you have to kinda let someone get there on their own, and even if the route to there is downward first before it's up, it feels really hard to accept, I guess, especially when you love the person. Do you think that's true?

   10. JNJonathan Van Ness26:27

       Yeah. Yeah. But my stepdad always said, you know, he... Like not ev- You're like... Well, he... This is like all 12-step, like well-known 12-step phraseology, but like every bottom has a basement, so like it can always get worse, and also like you don't have to ride the elevator to the bottom. So like not every... Like ev- like everyone's rock bottoms like look different. Like it doesn't mean that you have to like-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett26:47

       Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   12. JNJonathan Van Ness26:47

       ... it doesn't mean someone's gonna like bite it necessarily. I mean they might, but-

   13. SBSteven Bartlett26:51

       Yeah.

   14. JNJonathan Van Ness26:51

       ... um, some people are just like, "Ooh, I got like a DUI," and that was enough.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett26:54

       Okay.

   16. JNJonathan Van Ness26:56

       Other people are like, you know-

   17. SBSteven Bartlett26:59

       Yeah.

   18. JNJonathan Van Ness26:59

       ... everyone's bottom looks different.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett27:01

       Some people don't survive their bottoms.

   20. JNJonathan Van Ness27:02

       Yeah.

8. 27:04 – 33:46

   Sex addiction

   1. SBSteven Bartlett27:05

      Sex addiction.

   2. JNJonathan Van Ness27:06

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett27:06

      Something we don't talk about enough. We, we talk about drug addiction, alcohol addiction. We even talk about social media addiction and screen addiction. But having a conversation about sex addiction seems to be, um, harder than all of the aforementioned forms of addiction. I remember having Terry Crews on the podcast, um, when we were in LA, and him telling me that he had a porn addiction, um, and it was destroying his life. On the surface, someone might f- find it hard to understand how something like that can destroy one's life. Um, you- you talk about having a sex addiction and going on a sex addiction course, I believe, when you were... uh, during that time when you... r- roughly around you... the LA time. What impact was it having on your life and your relationships?

   4. JNJonathan Van Ness27:48

      Well, it's interesting 'cause I think if- if I'm correct, I think that like sexual- sex addiction like is not like a recognized addiction in like the D- DST whatever.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett27:59

      DSM.

   6. JNJonathan Van Ness27:59

      Yeah, DSM. Um, but it's... Uh, whereas like, you know, other ones are, um... So the effects it was having on my life was like obviously I got HIV, and, but even before that, like I was already like going to meetings and I'd already been to rehab twice before I got HIV. So, um-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett28:17

      Sec- like a sex- sex rehab?

   8. JNJonathan Van Ness28:19

      No, they were like... Well one was, one had like a sex, uh, compul- like a sexual compulsivity like course like within the program, and then the other one that I went to I found like an outpatient that- that did that work so I could like... I went there like, you know, during the day from like this other rehab. I had to be like an in- in... uh, you know, resourceful queen. Um, but ultimately it's like a process addiction, you know, whether it's like gambling, food, like sex. It's like a pr- it was like a process-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett28:48

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JNJonathan Van Ness28:48

       ... addiction. So the way that, um, it was affecting my life was like just, you know, doing things that I regretted. Um, I describe a lot of like dissociative behavior, like this like inability to like just get off, like couldn't get off the phone, couldn't stop cruising. Like I just felt like I wasn't like in control of... like I wasn't in control. Like so if you were to say like in, you know, in part speaker like IFS, it would... like- like that firefighter was like so blended in my driver's seat, like I couldn't, I couldn't get centered self like into the goddamn car.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett29:20

       When you say cruising, you mean you were l- like searching?

   12. JNJonathan Van Ness29:23

       Yeah, it's like a queer- a queer term for like what like gays do when you're like... Yeah, whether it's like you're cruising on Grindr or you're like at a bathhouse or you're like whatever you're doing.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett29:34

       Can you tell me about that journey? So, eh, at some point you realize that you've got sexual compulsivity. At some point you... it becomes a problem in your life and you lose your partner in this case, and there's, you know, you realize that you've lost control of that. And then at some point you get to a stage of healing where you become aware and you understand where the origin of this sexual compulsivity. That third point, understanding the origins of that sexual compulsivity, when was that and how did that happen?

   14. JNJonathan Van Ness30:01

       Well, you know, it's interesting. I think it's- it's... Um, that reminds me of this thing that this one guy in rehab said. He said like not knowing why he was an alcoholic is not what made him crazy.It was needing to know why he was an alcoholic is what made him crazy.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett30:18

       Mm.

   16. JNJonathan Van Ness30:19

       Um, so I think it's a lot... And- and that was actually a huge disappointment for me, and I think we put way too much emphasis on, like, trying to, like, understand your origin story. 'Cause like once I understood my origin story and it was, like, really clear as day, and like I'd done all my work, and I'd done, like, all of this processing, and like all of the memories came back, and like I already had all the memories, but then like there was just certain things that I was able to connect and like really understand very clearly, um, I was still left with the scarring and I was still left with the patterns. Like, I still... Once I knew it wasn't like... I was like, "Oh, well, now I don't wanna fuck 20 strangers anymore." (sighs) Like, it wasn't like that. Like, all of that pattern and all of that like, you know, feels insecure, wants validation, won't stop till they get the validation, then they feel insecure again for doing the thing, and then it like... It's just this cycle that, like, repeats itself all the time, and we talk about that in Sexual Compulsivity. It's like-

   17. SBSteven Bartlett31:08

       Mm.

   18. JNJonathan Van Ness31:08

       ... the trigger, and then... Like, the trigger to do the thing, and then you start cruising for the thing, and then you do the thing, and then the shame from the thing just makes you go right back into it. So it's just this, like, cycle. So, um, really it was just like understanding through so much, like, repetition of hurting myself, like, it was like, "Oh, I don't really want to do this. I don't feel better after I do this. Like, I think I'm going to, but then I don't." And, um, so it was really just like through continually, like, really hurting myself and then going back to therapy, like falling off the horse, getting back on. Like, fa- And also, like, meth use has a huge part to do with this for a lot of queer people at least, and, I mean, there are straight people as well, but I think it's probably like lesser numbers, um, because of like, you know, the whole like meth and sex, like, scene, which is, you know, quite prevalent in queer communities. Um, so it's not quite prevalent, but it's like prevalent. It happens. And so I think once... The further away that I was able to get from meth, the easier it was for me to heal from... 'Cause also it's like, and I talk a- a- (laughs) a lot about this in my new show, Fun & Slutty, it's like, um, sexuality isn't bad. Like, sexuality is good. Um, expressing our sexuality is good. It's lack of, uh, it's lack of consent, it's abuse, it's manipulation, it's doing things that you regret, those are the things that are not good. Um, but you know, decoupling that and like kind of understanding that, and understanding like are you doing this because you have a trauma response and so you're doing this, or are you doing this because you really, really want to do it?

   19. SBSteven Bartlett32:36

       Mm.

   20. JNJonathan Van Ness32:36

       So there's like a whole, you know, conversation about like sex positivity to be had here too. Um, and, you know, a lot of people are really opposed to the idea of sexual compulsivity or sex addiction because they're like, "That's really not sex positive," and maybe it's, you know, XYZ or whatever. But for me, I think it's way more important to recognize that like in my case it was I didn't feel good.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett32:58

       Mm.

   22. JNJonathan Van Ness32:58

       And now I feel better. And I know a lot of people like myself who were able to, like, you know, come more into a space of healing and more into a space of like balance with their, like, sexual self. So, um, but again, just like anything, that's never like all the way just like done and dusted. Like, you're always in conversation with yourself and with your trauma and- and your behavior and like how you wanna regulate that or express that. I would also be remiss to say, like, I mean, I- I already had a lot of healing prior to meeting my husband, and I think that's part of like why I even, like, met him, you know, universally speaking anyway, because I had done that work. But having a husband who I can be open with and honest with and who, you know, doesn't judge me for the things that I've been through and he can, like, create a safe space for, you know, to hold my stuff with me is really helpful as well.

9. 33:46 – 38:01

   Finding your partner at the right time

   1. JNJonathan Van Ness33:47

   2. SBSteven Bartlett33:47

      I was just chatting to some friends this, um, (smacks lips) this weekend, Friday, about how we... I was trying to figure out, 'cause one of my fr-... The- the- the people that I was with, the three of them, they're all single. Um, they're- they're seeking not to be single. And I was- I was saying to them that I found the right person in my life when I was, not necessarily the- the completed version of myself, but I'd had to do a lot of work to even find that jigsaw piece that matched me as a different shaped jigsaw piece. Like, I had to do a lot of work. And I- I wasn't all the way there, because I do feel like you go on a journey with that partner, but you have to kind of be aiming in the same direction at least. So I guess my question to you, and this is a bit of a tangent, is do you... What do you think about that, about like the- the season where we find the com- the right person? How much work do we have to do on ourselves to be ready when we meet that person?

   3. JNJonathan Van Ness34:39

      Um, there's this other type of therapy that I love called PACT therapy, which stands for like the psycho-biological approach to couples therapy, which was m- um, invented by Dr. Stan Tatkin. So he created PACT therapy. And so, he talks about an insecure functioning relationship and a secure functioning relationship. So earlier when I was speaking about my mom and my stepdad, I was like that's a secure functioning relationship. My first relationship was an insecure functioning relationship with my first partner. That in conjunction with like my stepdad's illness and then just being like 24 and 25, out of my window of tolerance, could not handle, firefighters were activated, all fucked up, you know? (laughs) Like, my life kinda... So that's that. So but Stan says that you can... An insecure functioning relationship can turn into a functio- a secure functioning one if both parties want it. If they're both willing to, like, work on themselves, work on the relationship. And also, Stan says that, like, a lot of, um, brokenness or like trauma in oneself can actually really be healed through that sort of like couple's therapy. So I don't know if you really have to be like a more ful- that whole thing of like two fully formed circles need to make the chain, 'cause like if you're a fragment and how are you sup- like you're gonna make a fuck-up.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett35:50

      Mm.

   5. JNJonathan Van Ness35:50

      So I think, I think we actually... It pisses me off when people get too much into that like relational expert stuff, 'cause like just like we all have our own experience, like every relationship has its own experience.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett36:00

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JNJonathan Van Ness36:01

      So we can, like, pull from some, like, you know, um, what's that called? Like, uh-... like, we can pull from some, like, data of... Or, like, but, like, not real data. Like, just, like, oratory, like, data of-

   8. SBSteven Bartlett36:13

      Yeah.

   9. JNJonathan Van Ness36:13

      ... just people talking about it-

   10. SBSteven Bartlett36:14

       Like, data. Yeah.

   11. JNJonathan Van Ness36:14

       ... and telling us things. And "Well, my friend this and my friend that," but, like, ultimately I think that, like, there is... There's, like, a different path for everyone to find, like, their relationship and whether or not it starts- And I also think, even in my marriage, like, I feel like we've had moments that... We got married after, like, six months. Like, in the middle of a fucking pandemic. Like, it was, you know, it was-

   12. SBSteven Bartlett36:31

       Wow.

   13. JNJonathan Van Ness36:32

       ... it was a weird time, you know, 'cause we'd just started saying, "I love you," and then the borders shut down, and then I was like, "If we wanna keep... I don't know if I can just not get fucked by you for, like, years in, like, a respiratory pandemic." Like, "I-"

   14. SBSteven Bartlett36:43

       (laughs)

   15. JNJonathan Van Ness36:43

       "... like, you know, like, I think I need you to, like, get over here." But he was British, and I'm American, and so we just were like, "Let's see what happens," and then once you get to the end of that S-J visa or whatever it's like, "We either gotta get married or..." And so it wasn't the way I think either of us ever imagined that, like, we would get married but, like, we are so happy. I'm so glad that we did. We've learned so much about each other. We are... Like, it's, it... Like, I'm so happy that we did. But, like, when I was little, I don't know if I was, like, imagining there would... Like, I'd get married in, like, a backyard, like, with only a judge 'cause, like, you know, no one's family could be there 'cause there was no... You know what I mean?

   16. SBSteven Bartlett37:20

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JNJonathan Van Ness37:20

       So.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett37:21

       There's something beautiful about that, though.

   19. JNJonathan Van Ness37:22

       No, it was amazing.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett37:23

       Yeah.

   21. JNJonathan Van Ness37:23

       And I'm, like, so happy that we did it, but I just think everyone can have, like, a different, like, approach. And just 'cause you've had this or that or th-... Like, everyone just has, like, their own way, and I think that's, like, cool.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett37:32

       Movies fuck us up though, don't they? In this social media.

   23. JNJonathan Van Ness37:34

       Yes, they really do.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett37:36

       You know?

   25. JNJonathan Van Ness37:36

       Goddamn movies.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett37:36

       It's expectation, expectation, expectation.

   27. JNJonathan Van Ness37:39

       Yes.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett37:39

       And then that kills happiness and makes us confuse real with, you know, I don't know, some other shit, and... Hmm. That's a really great answer. It's a really great answer. We do, we try and work out the perfect formula for things too much in life, but there is really no perfection when you're dealing with such complex organisms-

   29. JNJonathan Van Ness37:58

       Yes.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett37:59

       ... forming complex relationships, so.

10. 38:01 – 39:45

    Moving out of LA

    1. SBSteven Bartlett38:02

       You moved to... Is it St Louis?

    2. JNJonathan Van Ness38:03

       Yes.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett38:04

       St Louis?

    4. JNJonathan Van Ness38:04

       Yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett38:05

       St Louis.

    6. JNJonathan Van Ness38:05

       Mm-hmm.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett38:06

       St Louis when you were 25?

    8. JNJonathan Van Ness38:07

       Mm-hmm.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett38:08

       What was that about? Why did you leave LA?

    10. JNJonathan Van Ness38:10

        Um, wanted to be closer to my stepdad. And so, uh, yeah. That was why. And also 'cause I was like couldn't stop... I was like, "LA is why I can't stop doing drugs and having sex with strangers even though I love this person so much." So, like, "Well, let's..." And then, unfortunately, as my stepdad always said, "No matter where you go, there you are." So obviously leaving LA didn't fix anything, and then he actually passed away, like, three weeks after we left LA and got to St Louis. So it was, like, bad on bad. And then I really, really freaked out. Like, then I was... That was, like, the most self-destructive era.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett38:47

        Take me into that moment.

    12. JNJonathan Van Ness38:49

        Hmm. I don't want to.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett38:53

        Fine.

    14. JNJonathan Van Ness38:55

        It's in the book.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett38:57

        Yeah, I read, I read, um, I read, I read that that was a very difficult time for you. Um-

    16. JNJonathan Van Ness39:03

        'Cause I also just think that, like, we don't need to, like... I don't need to, like, war story, which is, like, what we call it in rehab, like, when you talk about, like, the worst thing. I mean, there's a way that you can do it, like, with respect and, like, not speak, you know, to, like, "I was doing this much things and these drugs and..." But, like, I also, you know, in protecting my energy, like, I've been on an international tour for 10 days.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett39:24

        Mm-hmm.

    18. JNJonathan Van Ness39:24

        Like, I've given myself so much into, like, my new show, like, which has just been... I'm so proud of it. It's, like, my third, like, hour of comedy, but, like, I'm not all the way in a space where, like, I wanna speak to that part of my life right now. So I'm just gonna set a really loving boundary and say, "I don't really wanna chat about it."

    19. SBSteven Bartlett39:39

        Great. That's fine. I respect that a lot.

    20. JNJonathan Van Ness39:40

        Thanks, honey.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett39:41

        What, what do... Um, if I, if I... Whe- when's the next

11. 39:45 – 42:47

    Gay of Thrones & Queer Eye

    1. SBSteven Bartlett39:45

       significant moment in your life then? So you... That, that... Ste- Steven is his name? Steve?

    2. JNJonathan Van Ness39:49

       Steve.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett39:49

       Steve passes away. Um, causes a series of issues in your life. Um, you move back to LA.

    4. JNJonathan Van Ness39:57

       Mm-hmm.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett39:58

       Did you ever think TV and media would be part of your...

    6. JNJonathan Van Ness40:01

       Not in this way, no. And how exciting that that... That, like, it was such a, like curveball. But no, I mean, I just was, like, accidentally telling a really talented producer, um, an actress and comedian friend of mine, uh, who was a client, about Game of Thrones, and I was like, "Have you seen this show? It's like this and it's that," and, like, I did a little impromptu recap of it as I was, like, doing her hair and when I was done she was like, "That's a series." And so then we did Gay of Thrones. That was, like, December of '12, and then the next year we started doing Gay of Thrones that, like, March. And then, um, Gay of Thrones came out and it was meant to be, like, one episode, but then we got Alfie Allen for our second episode and then Funny or Die was like, "Keep doing this." And so then I went really from being, like, a hairdresser to learning on the job how to be a performer, how to, like, improv, how to deliver scripted lines, how to write, how to produce. I mean, I was writing and producing and didn't even know that that's what I was doing, 'cause I was doing it on the job. So, like, I, like, I just learned, like, this whole new skillset, kind of, like, over the years. Like, for, like, three months a year, like, I would do Gay of Thrones and I just, like, kind of slow... And then after doing Gay of Thrones for two years I was like, "Oh, this is so fun. I wanna do this more." And so then that's when I started my podcast, Getting Curious. And then I did... I got to learn how to produce that and learn how to research for that and book clients for that. I mean, I think I did, like, the first 50 episodes with, like, myself and a sound engineer. But I was, like, booking it myself. Like, it was like... And it was like...

    7. SBSteven Bartlett41:31

       (laughs)

    8. JNJonathan Van Ness41:31

       I was, like, just learning, like, all of these things that I had never really done. And so then I really started to get, like, stung by that bee and I was like, "I wanna do this more." And I always have loved doing hair, but I was like, "I wanna be... I wanna write more, I wanna be more on camera, I wanna... Like, I wanna do this stuff more often." And then in 2018, the Queer Eye... Or, it was actually not '18, it was 2017. I read that the reboot was happening and they were casting for it. And I was like, "This is my moment." Like, "This is what I've been waiting for." Like, "This is the vehicle." Like, I always loved Queer Eye growing up. My grandparents and I would watch it together. It was like, "I'm ready." And then I, uh, went to that audition and that audition was-... literally like the scene in Mean Girls when they're all at the fountain and everyone's like tackling each other.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett42:16

       (laughs)

    10. JNJonathan Van Ness42:17

        Um, it was like that, except for everyone was like being really sweet. And I remember like this one creator of the show, like his eyes, like I said this like funny thing. And I was like, "Okay, you need to be like you are on Gay of Thrones all times. Like, you need to be on 15 and you need to say fucking one-liners all the time. Like, just be the funniest you have ever even thought about being for the next 48 hours. Capisce?" Like, that's what I was saying like in my head and I did. Like, I was just like-

    11. SBSteven Bartlett42:44

        (laughs)

    12. JNJonathan Van Ness42:44

        ... and I just was like so on.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett42:46

        Wh-

12. 42:47 – 45:25

    What made you successful?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett42:47

       why you? You know, I think, so I, I have my-

    2. JNJonathan Van Ness42:51

       Why not me, darling?

    3. SBSteven Bartlett42:52

       Well, I have my suspicions, but I, for you to t- you know, it wasn't just an audition, even the stuff you were doing with, um, was it Funny or Die was in it, the, the channel back then?

    4. JNJonathan Van Ness43:01

       Yeah, Gay of Thrones, yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett43:02

       Yeah, um, do you ever pause and think, like, what is it about you that made you really successful in Gay of Thrones and then really successful in Queer Eye? What is it about you in your own assessment?

    6. JNJonathan Van Ness43:20

       I don't know.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett43:21

       Really?

    8. JNJonathan Van Ness43:22

       I really don't 'cause I think it could've been a million people. I think that I have, I think I'm resilient. I think that I've had been told no so many times and didn't turn around and go back. I, like, found a different way.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett43:37

       Mm-hmm.

    10. JNJonathan Van Ness43:38

        I think that's really important.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett43:40

        We've got resilience, but, you know, just from meeting you now, you have a remarkable talent for wit and humor.

    12. JNJonathan Van Ness43:48

        Yeah.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett43:48

        You're very funny and you have a very unforgettable personality. You're like, you're unbelievable energy. And, no, I'm, no, but I'm, I'm gen- you know-

    14. JNJonathan Van Ness43:57

        No, thank you.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett43:57

        No, but, you know, so, you know I'm saying, I can't do what you do and I've, I've only met you for like, I don't know, an hour or so, and I can't be... I'm not as hilarious and witty and I don't know. I don't, I can't even w- almost describe it, that some people just have like a really engaging personality and you have that. You have that, like, energy. That's a huge part of it, surely, your success.

    16. JNJonathan Van Ness44:22

        Um-

    17. SBSteven Bartlett44:22

        'Cause you're in, you're, you know, especially on TV and Netflix.

    18. JNJonathan Van Ness44:24

        I don't know. I really don't.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett44:26

        Really?

    20. JNJonathan Van Ness44:26

        Like, I see people, like, I have peop- I know people that make me laugh that I think are way funnier than me, like way funnier, way more witty, way more, like, unforgettable personalities. But, like, I think that a lot of the people who I'm thinking of, like, had some message from the, like, in their lives where, like, they were, like, either or, like, their moment hasn't happened yet. It's one of the two.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett44:48

        It's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    22. JNJonathan Van Ness44:49

        Um, but I think for a lot of the people that, like, maybe, like, backed away or, like, were, like, "I don't wanna," like, 'cause, like, I, it... Because actually in retrospect, like, I really, as much as I think that, like, "Oh, I didn't chase my dream," I actually really did chase this, like with Gay of Thrones, you know? Like, I, like, I wanted more than Gay of Thro- I mean, Gay of Thrones started in 2013 and I didn't book Queer Eye until 2017, and then there was no knowing if Queer Eye was gonna work or not until, like, 2018. So, I mean, 2013 was 10 years ago.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett45:15

        Mm-hmm.

    24. JNJonathan Van Ness45:16

        Like, I've been at this for a long time.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett45:17

        Mm-hmm.

    26. JNJonathan Van Ness45:18

        Um, and so, and there was, like, so many setbacks, like, so many setbacks through that time.

13. 45:25 – 52:46

    Being authentic

    1. JNJonathan Van Ness45:25

    2. SBSteven Bartlett45:25

       Your authentic self, I've sat here with a lot of people in TV, and TV and media can often make us, it can incentivize us to become a cha- like, not character, but, like, I know I've sat here with Jake Humphreys and, uh, uh, a wonderful lady called Fern Cotton who are TV presenters.

    3. JNJonathan Van Ness45:38

       I love Fern.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett45:38

       Oh, you know Fern, yeah.

    5. JNJonathan Van Ness45:39

       Yeah.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett45:39

       So Fern told me on, on the podcast that she spent 10 years as a TV presenter and she, I think, realized at some point that she was living outside of herself and at least, um, she wasn't able to reflect the full array of her, who she was, um, and that resulted in panic attacks and other sort of i- psychological issues she had. W- and it's, and it's made, and now she's so successful doing Happy Place where she's able to be herself. So this conversation around auth- like, being your authentic self, being the b- the pathway to your greatest success, what, what is your take on that? This idea of, like, showing up as yourself regardless of the temptations or disincentivizations or incentivizations to be something else? How important to you has been being yourself regardless?

    7. JNJonathan Van Ness46:26

       It's such, 'cause, like, even, like, 'cause I, I, I, I totally understand, but even that feels like, um, I don't think, like, what is, like, all the way authentic? What's, like-

    8. SBSteven Bartlett46:36

       Mm-hmm.

    9. JNJonathan Van Ness46:36

       ... all the way yourself? 'Cause I always get leery when we're like, 'cause, like, if, if the alternative is like, n- I don't think that there's a such thing as being, like, all the way yourself or not yourself at all.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett46:46

        Mm-hmm.

    11. JNJonathan Van Ness46:47

        Like-

    12. SBSteven Bartlett46:47

        So interesting.

    13. JNJonathan Van Ness46:48

        ... so I think it's, like, a spectrum. Like, everything is kind of really much more of, like, a spectrum than it is, like, a binary-

    14. SBSteven Bartlett46:54

        Mm-hmm.

    15. JNJonathan Van Ness46:54

        ... like, choice.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett46:55

        Mm-hmm.

    17. JNJonathan Van Ness46:55

        So, and then, and, like, when she was saying with Fern, it was like, you know, she's, like, a TV presenter, but she couldn't show, like, the fullness of herself.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett47:00

        Mm-hmm.

    19. JNJonathan Van Ness47:00

        So, like, that's why I wrote Over the Top 'cause I, and I, and I think in Love That Story I say, like, or no, it's in Over the Top, I say that, like, I love an episode of Queer Eye just as much as the next person, but if I can't tell you my full truth and tell you who I really am, then, like, I can't help other people like me and I actually can't even be myself. And then the whole crux of Over the Top is, and what I ask in the book is, like, would you still wanna have a selfie with me? Like, would you still love me if you knew my whole story? And so that's m- you know, and then I say in Love That Story that the resounding answer that I got from so many people was, "Yes, you know, I do still love you." Um, and, like, in most cases it was, like, even more so.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett47:36

        Mm-hmm.

    21. JNJonathan Van Ness47:36

        But were there parts, um, I think we always have parts of ourselves that are informed by external factors. Like, if I didn't get feedback from people when I go, like, when I say something funny that, that if I didn't get positive feedback from that, would I still be making all those jokes? Like, so does that mean I'm not really... You know what I'm saying?

    22. SBSteven Bartlett47:58

        Mm-hmm.

    23. JNJonathan Van Ness47:58

        Like, every, every way that we show up in the world is because of, like, our socialization, our relationships, like, our communities. Like, I don't think that that makes you, like, it, it's really, like, your relationship with yourself-

    24. SBSteven Bartlett48:09

        Mm-hmm.

    25. JNJonathan Van Ness48:09

        ... and I don't think that, like, w-... I don't think there's, like, authentic and, like, inauthentic. There's, like, there's, like sometimes I'm more like this 'cause of th- this thing, and sometimes I'm more like that 'cause of that thing. You know what I mean?

    26. SBSteven Bartlett48:21

        Mm-hmm. Perfect, makes perfect sense. That's so interesting. Hmm. But it is the truth?

    27. JNJonathan Van Ness48:26

        And, uh, you know what I think is actually, like, more authentic, is like being able to, like, speak to what you're actually feeling, like, in the moment. Like, I feel like earlier when we were saying, like, um, like I- I literally caught myself. I was like, "Oh, like, you know, Brene Brown says, 'Can you talk about your trauma without becoming your trauma?'" And I was, like, literally laying that out 'cause I was feeling vulnerable with you. I was... And I didn't like it, so I was like, "Oh yeah, I totally can. Like, I can totally speak, uh, and it, like, doesn't really hurt me, so I don't really wanna talk about it that much 'cause it's like..." R- but then it's like, actually that was really protector part that was coming up-

    28. SBSteven Bartlett48:53

        Hmm.

    29. JNJonathan Van Ness48:53

        ... 'cause I didn't wanna talk about it and I felt like I was gonna become my trauma. Like, 'cause-

    30. SBSteven Bartlett48:57

        Hmm.
14. 52:46 – 54:53

    How are you feeling?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett52:46

       How are you feeling?

    2. JNJonathan Van Ness52:47

       Now?

    3. SBSteven Bartlett52:48

       Yeah, you know, your schedule's been crazy. You've been doing a lot of work lately.

    4. JNJonathan Van Ness52:51

       Yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett52:51

       How are you feeling?

    6. JNJonathan Van Ness52:52

       Um, look, I feel, I feel really grateful and at the same time I feel really frustrated. Um, and that's the best way I can explain it right now. I'm going through a lot of grief. I just lost my sister-in-law two months ago. I'm watching my nephews, like, grow up, you know, dealing with unimaginable grief. I'm watching my brother deal with unimaginable loss. Um, so talking about, you know, how I'm feeling and it's just this has been a really hard time. And I think balancing your private life with being a public figure who is constantly expected to be a ray of fucking sunshine no matter what is going on, it can be challenging. Um, so I love my hairline. I love what I get to do with JVN Hair. I love that I get to be a comedian. I love that when I want to, like, do a show I can, like, there's people that wanna come see my comedy. Like, comedy has been so healing for me and it's, like, one place in my career where I get to be irreverent and I get to, like... I feel like I'm the most myself on stage. I think that's, like, the most accurate and unfiltered, like, version of who I am, is, like, on stage. But I think like any artist when you, like...... like, I'd just been burning the candle at both ends for the last, like, 10 days, so, like, in this very moment in my life, like, actually this particular moment, I feel frustrated-

    7. NANarrator54:31

       Mm-hmm.

    8. JNJonathan Van Ness54:32

       ... and grieving. Um, when I zoom out a little bit and give voice to that frustration, and now I can, like, sit with this for, like, longer-

    9. NANarrator54:41

       Mm-hmm.

    10. JNJonathan Van Ness54:41

        ... than actually, like, tell, like, give a larger answer, um, I feel like...

15. 54:53 – 1:00:40

    Transphobia

    1. JNJonathan Van Ness54:53

       Actually, it's the same, I feel grateful and frustrated. Like, Dylan Mulvaney is a really good friend of mine, I love her so much, I've like watched what's happened to her in the press for the last few months, I'm like so frustrated. I just see so much, like, just absolute garbage, like, just transphobic garbage all over the place. I see really not very many folks really interrogating their beliefs around their transphobia, um, interrogating, like, where are they getting their information, um, and then even understanding, like, our transphobia that we experience in our culture is, like, really truly rooted in, like, white supremacy and colonialism, and this conversation goes back, like, 400 years. And so that's, like, a really big systemic thing, but then living in a state where, like, this woman literally just lost her life because this guy thought that she looked queer. Like, there are kids that, like, like their families are, like, moving, like they can't, like they can't, they, like, there are kids who, like, if they have already started their transition and they're, like if they're, you know, a 16-year-old and they're a sophomore in high school and they've been living in their gender identity since they were like a five-year-old kid, they've been on puberty blockers, uh, when they were, you know, little, they had a concert of doctors and their family who cares about them and loves them deeply help them transition, um, because if they didn't transition, in some cases, not all cases, but some cases, like these kids will have such intense gender dysphoria that they can commit suicide, they can do things that can truly never be reversed. And so we have these people making these hyperbolic claims about protecting children, um, and about, you know, protecting children from making irreversible decisions, uh, bathrooms, fairness in sports, all of these things, when, like, trans people make up, like, at most, like, 2% of the population. Like, gun violence is out of control, education is out of control, like people don't have access to the food, to the healthcare. I mean, my book's been banned, like my book, like Peanut Goes for the Gold, like they're talking about banning... I mean, like, this is really serious, and so, like, it's just frustrating. I'm grateful, but I think to, like, have had a lot of my dreams come true, like I said in, earlier, but then in this, like, environment of, like where you feel like, oh my god, like if one person decides that, like, something that I said or did, they can like, I mean, you literally... 'Cause so much of the transphobia that we read about, like when you read, like if you read an article about what happened to Dylan, um, like the way that people just speak about trans people and non-binary people, like the quotations, the, the inferred, like, threats or like not believing that we are who we say that we are and, but then like how that actually has like been taken farther now to like revoking healthcare, like, you know, limiting access to healthcare, calling healthcare child abuse. Um, it's just really frustrating 'cause it's such, like, a gigantic conversation that there's a lot of nuance in, a lot of people have been exposed to misinformation and disinformation they don't really understand. And so then, and then I'm in this position of like, like, how do I balance like what I'm seeing happening to friends and people who I love and then like running a business and trying to grow my business, and then with this backdrop of all this fucked-up shit, it's hard. So I'm like, you know, I'm grateful of like, and I lo- and I'm also like a hairdresser who loves doing hair.

    2. NANarrator58:13

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JNJonathan Van Ness58:13

       Like, I love good products. Like, I'm someone who in my 20s like I would overdraft my checking account to get the shampoo and conditioner that I wanted, like I, because I know when your hair feels good, like when you feel good about how you look, like you just feel so much better. And I would literally choose like products over food all the time in my 20s-

    4. NANarrator58:30

       (laughs)

    5. JNJonathan Van Ness58:30

       ... and so I wanted to make products that are clean and, but ultimately, like, more than clean, like I really wanted to make products that work really, really well that don't cost like $100 for a shampoo and conditioner. Like, I just wanted to make really highly functional products that work on people's hair, that hairdressers love and that people love that they can actually afford. And I'm so passionate about it, but like there's a lot of times that I can't even think about the cool things that I've done 'cause I'm like, literally like if you read comments right now if you, but like who cares about a comment? I don't really care about comments. I care about like what's happening in my state, like in Texas, like I mean, there, like, l- like this l- like drag ban that was just passed, like I'm performing in Texas and Austin in December, like I have to make sure, like there used to be able to be like... Now in this show, Fun and Slutty, I wouldn't want kids there anyway, it is like an adult show, but like it is like there is like... I'm like, like there wa- there was a law they were talking about that would like just force people to wear clothes of their, like, biological sex in public. That law didn't pass, but there's a conversation around it. The way that we're like trending and heading, and any time where you like talk about like limiting a whole group's ability to like, you know, access like information, healthcare, education, or just like their exposure to public under the guise of like protecting kids, like historically we've really seen that a lot of times like against so many marginalized groups. So I think anytime when that starts happening, like we all really need to be super leery, especially because like sex abuse is such a huge issue and it is happening in families and in churches and it's happening in schools. Um, I'll tell you where it's not happening is at drag queen brunch. Okay, it's not happening there. Um, it's not happening in healthcare clinics. Well, maybe it could be in some places, like I don't, you know... But really it's like it is not happening in gender-affirming care and it ain't happening at drag queen brunches. Um, it's, it's, a dentist or, you know, some doctor might put you under some... Those things happen with these crazy fucking cishet doctors who you find out were like, you know, impregnating their fucking patients or abu- like that is what it... So maybe that, but like in gender-affirming care and in drag queen brunch, uh...... it's not child abuse.

16. 1:00:40 – 1:04:12

    Trans rights

    1. JNJonathan Van Ness1:00:40

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:40

       Where, where, where's this? 'Cause I've noticed this what feels like quite a tectonic shift, um, in transphobic narratives over the last couple of months in particular. It seems to have been this, this grow- And I can't figure out where it's come from. I was, I was saying to... this to you earlier on. But if I don't know where it's come from, I don't really know-

    3. JNJonathan Van Ness1:01:00

       Part of it is c- conservative think tanks. So when Biden won in 2020, um, and we saw this in Virginia, because the Virginia House of Delegates, uh, it... by one vote stayed Republican, and then in... Because they have off, uh, cycle elections in Virginia-

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:17

       Mm-hmm.

    5. JNJonathan Van Ness1:01:17

       ... so 2019, it flips back to, or flips to Democrats. And then 2021, it reverses again and goes back to Republicans.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:25

       Mm-hmm.

    7. JNJonathan Van Ness1:01:25

       And the issue that they really used there was bathrooms and trans rights, because the Democratic-controlled, uh, legislature in that '19 session had done some things on trans rights, and they threw e- c- these conservative think tanks... 'Cause a lot of times Virginia, because it has off years, like, they use that as like a bellwether to like test things, like just-

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:43

       Mm-hmm.

    9. JNJonathan Van Ness1:01:44

       ... on both sides, like Democrats and Republicans. But they were throwing everything at the wall. They were, "Abortion? Hell no." They don't want that. That's not going well for them right now, 'cause most people support the right to abortion.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:53

        Mm-hmm.

    11. JNJonathan Van Ness1:01:53

        So for Republicans, like, that's not a winning thing right now. But the thing that... And gay marriage, that's not really a huge thing anymore-

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:59

        Mm-hmm.

    13. JNJonathan Van Ness1:01:59

        ... because most people support gay marriage. But when they threw trans rights, when they threw biological males competing against women in sports, robbing, you know, your sweet, pretty, little white girl of her, you know, hard-earned sporting opportunities, that stuck. That stuck hardcore. That got people fucking circling the wagons, honey. So, um, that is when we really started to see. And when you were like, "Oh, it's just in these last three months," it has not just been in these last three months. That's b- because of the way that elections work, and because we just had a midterm election-

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:35

        Mm.

    15. JNJonathan Van Ness1:02:35

        ... in November of last year, and then they don't take office until January, and then it takes months and months for things to get through committee and stuff, all of this shit has been in the works. We've all been talking about this. If you look at my Getting Curious that was canceled on Netflix last fucking year, there's a whole episode about this, and it c- it talks about the anti-drag bills up until 2022, as compared to that time, we have four times more at that time, and the graph was like this. So, it isn't new, and it just takes a minute. But, um, I think another thing that we're seeing is that like, you know how you were saying, like, oh, the lion... or like the, the thing of, like, the tiger's coming for you, run away from the tiger?

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:10

        Yeah, yeah.

    17. JNJonathan Van Ness1:03:10

        (clicks tongue) So that's like negativity bias versus like positiv- positive bias. That's why a story of, like, someone getting murdered or someone getting abused is gonna go way farther than, like, you know, the Good News Network story.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:21

        Mm-hmm.

    19. JNJonathan Van Ness1:03:21

        You know? 'Cause it's your negativity bias. So that's the other thing is that, like, because we have so much fearmongering around trans issues right now, um, that's also part of, like, why, like, it feels like it's going so much farther, 'cause people really are actually thinking that... People really think that there's, like, little kids going and getting hysterectomies, like, going to school as a boy and coming home as a girl. Having, like, full... You know what I mean?

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:43

        Mm.

    21. JNJonathan Van Ness1:03:43

        Like, people actually have been convinced that, like, there's little teeny children who are making, you know, permanent medical decisions with no parental supervision, with no medical supervision. People really think that's true. Another huge issue that we're up against right now is that there's so much disinformation around, like, the fact that actually, like, biological sex is, in and of itself, a spectrum. Like, that's not even a binary. Like, do you know what intersex is?

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:11

        Do I?

17. 1:04:12 – 1:07:10

    Intersex

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:12

    2. JNJonathan Van Ness1:04:12

       Yeah.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:12

       No, I don't.

    4. JNJonathan Van Ness1:04:13

       So, that's the I in LGBTQIA. There is, like, six intersex, uh... There's six... My friend, Alicia Rothweigel, is an amazing intersex activist. Her book is coming out. It's called Inverse Cowgirl. She also just helped produce a movie that just came out that is called Every Body. But statistics show that up to 2%... I've interviewed her on Getting Curious, if you ever wanna listen to it. But up to 2% of our population is inter- And you should actually have her on this podcast, 'cause she's fucking major. But 2% of our population is intersex. We don't test everyone that's born for what our chromosomes are. So there's XX and then there's XY, but then there's also a variation that's XXY. There's also some... There's, like, these multiple variations. There's six main ones that qualify someone as intersex. Um, and so what happens is, in... is that, like, if a kid is born intersex, doctors, they don't even mark that down. Like, they will take the kid, they talk to the parent, and they say, like, whatever the genitalia most appears as, they'll... And, and literally, one thing that I have learned and have been told is, like, doctors will literally say, "It's easier to dig a hole than build a pole." So most people that are born intersex, they will make into someone that looks biologically female, but these people will have to take hormones for their entire life, they have to have gender... They have to have genital surgery, like on their genitals when they are babies. I'm talking, like, operate on their genitals when they're babies, and then when they're kids, and then they have to wear expanders when they're kids. Like, their parents have to teach them how to wear expanders so they will have a vagina that looks like other people's vaginas. So kids currently... Up to 2% of people. Now, when you say that to transphobes, they'll say like, "Oh, well actually, that study was wrong and it's only .02 people. It's not 2%, it's, it's .2." And either way, 2% of the population of seven billion, that's hundreds of millions of people who have intersex characteristics. Of .2, that's still millions and millions of people with intersex characteristics. And there's a lot of people who look like they're men who are actually walking around here with XXY chromosomes. A lot of men who can't have kids, it's actually 'cause they have, they are intersex.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:15

       Hmm.

    6. JNJonathan Van Ness1:06:16

       So, intersex people exist all over the place. Like, intersex is a real thing. The idea of biological sex being a binary isn't even true, and if you talk to biologists, they will tell you exactly what I'm telling you. And it's interesting in a lot of these anti-trans bills for kids, intersex kids are specifically carved out. So in these bills, it says you can't commi- No genital mutilation, no hormones, your kid must be the, the biological sex that they were born unless...They are intersex. And then we must do genital surgery, we must prescribe hormones, we must enforce the binary.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:55

       Mm.

    8. JNJonathan Van Ness1:06:55

       So that's, and I'm, and you can, if you think I'm being hyperbolic right now, not you or just anyone watching-

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:59

       Mm-hmm.

    10. JNJonathan Van Ness1:06:59

        ... like, do this research. Look up what intersex is. 'Cause-

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:03

        Can I, can I ask you a really important question-

    12. JNJonathan Van Ness1:07:05

        Uh-huh.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:05

        ... that I've been, I've been mulling over in my head? And I'm gonna be, and I think there'll be a lot of people that are mulling this question in their head, which

18. 1:07:10 – 1:09:42

    How can we be better allies?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:10

       is how can I be a ... and I'm not even sure if this is the right word, but how can I be a better ally?

    2. JNJonathan Van Ness1:07:16

       Um, I think everyone needs to realize, uh, I think the ally talk is a little bit garbage-

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:22

       Mm-hmm.

    4. JNJonathan Van Ness1:07:22

       ... because it, ally implies that, like, "This doesn't affect me, but-"

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:26

       Yeah.

    6. JNJonathan Van Ness1:07:26

       "... because I care about you, I'm gonna fight against this."

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:28

       Yeah.

    8. JNJonathan Van Ness1:07:28

       But actually, these tran- this transphobia affects everyone, like it affects everyone. Um, it affects cisgender women because, like even now, like there's little girls who, like, they're wanting to, like ... There was this, like, little girls' soccer team in Utah where this one team beat the other team, and the k- the parents of the kids who got beaten accused the other girls of being transgender, uh, and they were like, "That's why they got beaten." So, like, as we start to, like, incentivize, you know, checking kids' genitals and checking, like, to make sure that you're who you say you are and, like, and really, like, villainize this idea of transness, it starts, like, it's going to affect everyone. Like, so if it doesn't affect you now, it's, like, we already lost-

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:05

       Mm.

    10. JNJonathan Van Ness1:08:05

        ... our right to reproductive healthcare, because the right to reproductive healthcare in the United States goes hand in hand with its bodily autonomy. So whether you're talking about determining what your body does reproductively or determining what your body does as far as your gender expression, it, like, they go hand in hand, and it's all about control. So that control affects everyone. So I think we need to, like ... Allyship, I think is like, "Oh, well, like, I'm gonna do this, like, even though it doesn't affect me, I'm gonna be your ally." At least that's-

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:27

        Mm.

    12. JNJonathan Van Ness1:08:28

        ... how I feel about it, like that's like how, when I think of it, but really it's like, we need people to understand that, like, if you're white, racism, it doesn't affect you in the same way that it does for a person of color, but you shouldn't be like, "I'm gonna do you a solid and be an ally."

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:41

        Mm.

    14. JNJonathan Van Ness1:08:42

        You should do, you should be, you should be in that fight, because an injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere and it will affect you. And actually, the racism and the transphobia and the homophobia and the misogyny and the, um, the way that we are like, so, like, don't talk about disabled people and, and what they need, uh, or people with disabilities and the disabled community, is like all this does is, like, keeps money in the most powerful people, the most powerful people's hands. Like, we all need to really come together and, like, like, to me it's like the corporate greed. Like, that's really what is, like, causing so much of this. And then, like, corporate greed, because so much of that is, like, made by Republicans-

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:21

        Mm-hmm.

    16. JNJonathan Van Ness1:09:21

        ... they're like, "Look over here. It's trans people. Look over here. It's gay people. Look over here. It's, it's, um, it's food stamps. Like, they're being lazy, like that's why we don't ... tho- those people are being lazy. These people don't even work. These people are fucking crazy with their tran- their, their kids are running around," like, you know what I mean?

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:37

        Mm-hmm.

    18. JNJonathan Van Ness1:09:37

        So it's just a lot of, like, smoke and mirrors. Now, as far as haircare, we're obsessed with JBN Hair.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:40

        (laughs)

    20. JNJonathan Van Ness1:09:40

        They're absolutely gorgeous.

19. 1:09:42 – 1:11:18

    Your fantastic hair products

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:42

       Can I just say, can I just say on this, um, your team said to me before you arrived, they said, "We've, we've worked with a few people, but nobody's ever been so deeply obsessed in the product, and been authentically obsessed in the product, as you have." So I've went through and I've had a little sample of all of them. They are the most exquisi- exquisitely smelling products I've ever-

    2. JNJonathan Van Ness1:09:58

       Thank you.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:59

       ... had the wonderful of, um, ingesting nasally. Um, well done.

    4. JNJonathan Van Ness1:10:03

       Thank you.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:03

       I've heard this is breaking records.

    6. JNJonathan Van Ness1:10:04

       Thanks. Um, Pre-Wash Cup Oil is amazing. I, well, I think for me, I really love formulas. I love formulas that work on all hair types. Um, so for us, I'm really big on, like, the amount of product, like if your hair is finer in density, you're gonna use a little bit less. If your hair is quite thick in density, like a lot of hair per square inch, you're gonna use a little bit more.

Episode duration: 1:13:48