Rochelle Humes: Learning To Be At Peace With Uncertainty | E118

1. 0:00 – 2:17

   Intro

   1. RHRochelle Humes0:00

      I just got to a point where I thought, "It's time to empower myself." And do you know what? Some of this is your fault because you said something. You'd met someone-

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:10

      Yeah.

   3. RHRochelle Humes0:10

      ... or you spoke to... I can't remember.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:11

      51%.

   5. RHRochelle Humes0:12

      That. It's been my life and I accept it. Like you say, acceptance actually can be a beautiful thing and it can be a liberating thing to think-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett0:21

      Oh, amen.

   7. RHRochelle Humes0:21

      ... I'm not holding onto something that I can't change. So first of all, the conversation was, "Well done. I didn't know about this." And then overnight, the dial turned. That, that definitely was pr- like... Do you know what? Actually, I was scared taking my kid to nursery that day because I got death threats.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett0:43

      Quick one. Can you do me a favor if you're listening to this and hit the subscribe button, the follow button, wherever you're listening to this podcast? Thank you so much. Rochelle Humes. Once upon a time, she was a member of The Saturdays, one of the most famous UK girl bands that has ever risen from this country. But since then, she's become so much more. She is a mother, she is an fearless entrepreneur, and honestly, she's one of the most pleasant, wonderful, authentic guests I've ever had on this podcast, and I can see why. After having this conversation with her, she's built this huge, engaged community behind her online and I think you're going to see that too. She's inspiring, she is wise, she is resilient, but she's also just unbelievably real. And today, we talk about something she's never addressed before, the moment where she was nearly canceled, unanswered questions from her childhood, and also the all-consuming side of starting and running a business that people just never talk about. The difficult times, the rejection, the struggle with work-life balance, and in her words, how she's "just winging it anyway." And I kinda think we are all just winging it. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music plays)

2. 2:17 – 3:38

   Your early years

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:17

      Just me and Mum. I was reading, um, about the, the start of your life and going through multiple interviews-

   2. RHRochelle Humes2:22

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett2:23

      ... and that phrase kept coming up-

   4. RHRochelle Humes2:24

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett2:25

      ... "Just me and Mum." Why was it just you and mum?

   6. RHRochelle Humes2:28

      It was just me and mum because that's sort of how my childhood looked. My mum and my dad split officially when I was a tiny... probably my son's age, probably maybe one, just short of one. And then that was sort of it, really. So that sort of... I had contact with my dad for little bursts of time, but it was never anything solid, and then the contact stopped altogether. So yeah, that... I suppose I, I actually... It's funny that you're pointing that out because I didn't realize how much I say that, but it...

   7. SBSteven Bartlett3:05

      Mm-hmm.

   8. RHRochelle Humes3:05

      "Just me and Mum" is probably something that I have said a lot, you're right.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett3:11

      I, um, I had a, a relative show up one day when I was maybe 12-

   10. RHRochelle Humes3:16

       Right.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett3:16

       ... and they claimed to be my uncle. They just walked into the shop and they claimed to be my uncle. And they presented evidence, which is really compelling. They were, were my uncle. They strolled in and, um, they spoke to my dad and they said, "I'm your brother," and they looked at me and said, "I'm your uncle." And it was a really bizarre point in my life because although we believed them and they had evidence to prove that they were, there was no relationship

3. 3:38 – 19:45

   Your Dad & your family

   1. SBSteven Bartlett3:38

      there. And I, I read that you went in search of your dad to, just to f- find out who he was-

   2. RHRochelle Humes3:43

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett3:43

      ... and what was going on at some point in your life. Can you tell me how that interaction was and what you, what you felt?

   4. RHRochelle Humes3:48

      Yeah, I think my mum did very well, uh, at not sort of discrediting my dad over the years. So she would kinda make a lot of excu- well, now I'm an adult and I'm a parent, right?

   5. SBSteven Bartlett3:59

      Mm-hmm.

   6. RHRochelle Humes4:00

      I know that she was obviously covering his ass (laughs) constantly, and making a lot of excuses and dressing it up in a way that I suppose that, at the time, I could handle as a, as a kid. But you're always gonna have that level of curiosity in life. When I had my own children, I weirdly became less curious, which is weird, right? Because I had my own kids and I suppose I've always thought, "Oh, yeah, he's my dad and... Oh, he's not been around, I don't really know him, but he's my d-" And I sort of h- held hope. But then I had my own children and I saw what being a dad was from my husband, and I knew what being... even not being a dad was, being a parent was, because I was then a parent and besotted and in love and lived, live my life for my kids. So I think the respect was here, but it was in the basement when I had my own, you know? Because-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett5:00

      Mm-hmm.

   8. RHRochelle Humes5:01

      ... I w- my outlook was then like, "Okay, now I really don't understand the way that you don't want to be a part of your child's life," you know? For some people that changes. They have their own kids and then they're like, "I'd like them to know their grandparents," or "I'd like them..." And I feel my biggest thing in life is to protect these little ones. I know how flaky you were for me. There's no way that I'd have them sat by the window saying, "Is Granddad coming to get me?" 'Cause I can protect... I, I've got control over that. I'm not against it. I'd, I'd be open, but it's not something that I would seek now.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett5:36

      And there was that day that you got a chance to meet him.

   10. RHRochelle Humes5:39

       Yeah.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett5:39

       And what did you find out that day about him or why he wasn't present or...

   12. RHRochelle Humes5:45

       Well, I didn't.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett5:46

       Really?

   14. RHRochelle Humes5:47

       I didn't find out anything. My mum would always tell me this story that sort of went like... Bless her, and this is what... Now I'm a parent I- I'm like, "She was so thinking on the spot," but it's something that stuck with me. She said-Some, some daddies aren't very good at looking after little girls because they would look after little boy... It's easier for them to look after little boys, and- and she must have literally been doing the washing, and I said, "Why don't... Why doesn't..." You know. And I... 'Cause at that time, I, I knew that he had a son. Fast-forward to however many years later, I realized that he also had two daughters. So that sort of... My mum was like... (laughs)

   15. SBSteven Bartlett6:26

       (laughs)

   16. RHRochelle Humes6:26

       Ooh.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett6:27

       Yeah.

   18. RHRochelle Humes6:27

       But at that point, I was old enough to, like-

   19. SBSteven Bartlett6:29

       Yeah.

   20. RHRochelle Humes6:29

       ... realize that, you know, he... it just... he had a new setup, and I just didn't slot into that.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett6:35

       I'm super naive to the situation because I don't know what it's like. It's important to say that. So everything I talk about-

   22. RHRochelle Humes6:40

       Yeah.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett6:40

       ... or assume of this situation comes from a place of, like, total naivety.

   24. RHRochelle Humes6:43

       Mm-hmm.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett6:43

       Um, I... Like, if I me- if I met my dad and he wasn't around, I would assume... I would just, like, ask him the fucking question. Like, "Where the fuck have you been, motherfucker?" Like...

   26. RHRochelle Humes6:51

       Yeah.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett6:52

       Is that-

   28. RHRochelle Humes6:52

       I know. And it... Can I just tell you?

   29. SBSteven Bartlett6:54

       Yeah.

   30. RHRochelle Humes6:54

       With everything else in my life, I am... I mean, ask anybody that knows me, the most direct person, but there's just this, like... I can't even articulate it enough. Like, there's this weird... It's been my life, right? And I've got to this point, and I still don't know the answer, but I know the person that I want the answers from isn't the person that's gonna give me the honest answer.
4. 19:45 – 32:03

   The Saturdays

   1. SBSteven Bartlett19:45

      of tremendous successes, The Saturdays. When you look back on that phase of your life, how would you describe it now in hindsight? And now you're 32.

   2. RHRochelle Humes19:53

      Oh my gosh.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett19:54

      Even though you look 22.

   4. RHRochelle Humes19:55

      I look back now and I think The Saturdays existed at the perfect time in my life. Like, I was a young girl in... Well, I think when I joined the group, I was like... Obviously, it took a while for us to launch, so I think I was 18 when we formed. And what young girl doesn't wanna be in a girl band? Well, I mean, I'm sure there are girls that don't, but for me, it was the most incredible experience. When I look back now, I think we were actually really fortunate. When I see other girl bands and their fallouts, and the way that looked, I think, "Goodness me, y- yes, we bickered, but we bickered like sisters." We never had a row that was like... We just never had it. We didn't. We kind of was all there for the same reason. We loved what we did, and we had a respect for that. So I feel blessed because when I look at the history of girl bands, it doesn't always play out that way. So we had the best time. If there was something up, we'd sort it out, and that was it, done. And it was only- only really ever a work thing. So it'd be like, "Oh, I don't like that. I don't think that's the right vibe for the video," or, "I don't think..." And that's the sort of disagreement. That's sort of where it stopped. And then we always had this... There was five of us, so we had the majority rules rule.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett21:17

      Ah, nice. Democracy.

   6. RHRochelle Humes21:18

      And it was s- and on that- on the- on the time where you were in the two and not the three, it was so annoying.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett21:24

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   8. RHRochelle Humes21:24

      So you'd be like... Yeah. And it was one of those things 'cause you know you couldn't do anything about it because that's- we- we lived our life by that, so it is what it is. And even if you think your point is so valid, you're in the two, so-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett21:35

      You're backed down.

   10. RHRochelle Humes21:35

       ... you're fucked. (laughs)

   11. SBSteven Bartlett21:36

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   12. RHRochelle Humes21:37

       Um, but yeah, so I had a ball. I was young. For a proportion of it, I was single. You know, I didn't have chil- I just, we- we traveled the world, we performed, we had a bloody good time doing it. So when I look back, I only actually look back fondly.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett21:57

       So interesting 'cause Liam Payne sat here-

   14. RHRochelle Humes21:59

       Mm-hmm.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett22:00

       ... from One Direction. Before he arrived, I would've said the same. What young guy wouldn't have wanted to be in Young- One Direction? But then when he described how turbulent that experience was in being-

   16. RHRochelle Humes22:11

       Mm-hmm.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett22:11

       ... a young dude that comes out on stage, there's 150,000 people screaming at him. He then has to go back to his hotel room straight after the gig, and he's basically locked in the hotel room 'cause there's tens of thousands of fans screaming downstairs. And doing that over and over and over again for years and years and years really took a toll on him.

   18. RHRochelle Humes22:25

       Yeah.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett22:26

       Obviously, like, also not being able to walk down the street without people coming up to him and, um... And then the band ending, and there's almost that sense of like, "Well, what the hell do I do now?"

   20. RHRochelle Humes22:36

       Now what? Yeah.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett22:37

       D- was there not... It almost made me think that there's a bit of a curse of being in the public eye, especially in that context of a band and-

   22. RHRochelle Humes22:44

       Yeah.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett22:44

       ... and then what happens after, and-

   24. RHRochelle Humes22:46

       Yeah.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett22:47

       ... did he experience... I don't know, I- I just... After the conversation with Liam, I thought, "Fuck, I'm so glad-"

   26. RHRochelle Humes22:52

       Yeah.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett22:52

       "... I wasn't in One Direction."

   28. RHRochelle Humes22:53

       (laughs) Yeah. I think... Look, I think One Direction's level, and it was a global phenomenon, right?

   29. SBSteven Bartlett22:59

       Mm-hmm.

   30. RHRochelle Humes23:00

       And I've noticed, being married to Marv, there's a very different level of hysteria when you're in a boy band to a girl band. Like it- it's just- it's just different. It comes with the nature of this job. The hysteria is wild for boys, which I do think would come with a different level of pressure. I mean, there's pros and cons to both. You know, when you're in a girl band, it's very visual, and people are obsessed with how you look. And if you're the one that may have enjoyed your Christmas too much and put on a bit of weight, oh, people are gonna tell you. Or if you're the one that kind of... You know, there's- there's... With girls, it's all very visual, and I think that's what I think we can all say that we would f- have found the toughest at one point. For us, our... We didn't burst onto the scene, right? So like, we weren't like JLS or like One Direction who went on X Factor in its prime and gained this overnight momentum, and girls overnight want to wait outside their house, because there's one minute you're a guy that's just turned up for an audition, and the next minute, you've got this pressure that you don't know how to handle because no one's taught you that. So for us, we did the, like, university gigs, we did the... We- we didn't have that burst. We really did-It was a real sort of grind to get our single played on radio. And we, you know, so for us it was kind of every little bit of success meant-
5. 32:03 – 52:35

   Starting your business - My Little Coco

   1. SBSteven Bartlett32:03

      (page turns) You talked about starting a business there. You've got a business you run now, My Little Cocoa.

   2. RHRochelle Humes32:07

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett32:08

      Tell me about that. Why, why did you want to start that business? And obviously, you know, being a mother of three wonderful children, starting a business, especially starting a business at the start of the pandemic, is a, uh, is-

   4. RHRochelle Humes32:18

      Really great time, right? (laughs)

   5. SBSteven Bartlett32:19

      Yeah. Uh, uh, phenomenal timing-

   6. RHRochelle Humes32:21

      (laughs)

   7. SBSteven Bartlett32:21

      ... to take on tremendous responsibility.

   8. RHRochelle Humes32:23

      Yeah. So, obviously I'd started the business before. It didn't launch until a few weeks before the pandemic hit. Um, but the wheels were in motion, right? We couldn't stop then. So, I was pregnant with Alaia and going through that real phase of, like, thinking, "I'm an Earth mum," and being really precious about what I use on my ki- ... You know, they are the most precious thing ever in your life, like, that just ... And I was really fussy about what I used, and I would shop really premium, so I'd be, like, going into, like, Liberty Bea- Beauty Hall and finding out ... well, you know. And I'd be really into it. There wasn't anything that existed on the High Street that I felt happy with, you know. A lot of them have, like, outrageous chemicals in, and things that you are like, "Oh, that's quite harsh for a baby's skin." So, for me, it was bridging that gap of products that you could use with a whole family, that were gentle, that had everything that I wanted as, you know, my values. And so the journey began. And I didn't want this to be a flash in the pan thing. I didn't want this to be Baby by Rochelle Humes. This wasn't about me, right? This was about me building a brand from the ground up, rolling with the punches, which we certainly have done, and yeah, bigger picture. B- you know, uh, uh, almost creating a space. I knew what I wanted to do, but almost creating a space for myself that, like ... I'm always gonna be needed, right, because it's mine. And no one can make the decisions that I can make because this is my baby. So-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett34:04

      Why was that important?

   10. RHRochelle Humes34:05

       Well, I think, I suppose there's a little bit of the nature in what I do that, yes, I host television, but any day someone more relevant or more current could come along, because that's the way the time is. There could be somebody new that now fills the gap that I, you know, had created or left open. So, I think for me it's always being that one step ahead and-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett34:31

       Being in control. (laughs)

   12. RHRochelle Humes34:32

       ... being in control.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett34:32

       (laughs)

   14. RHRochelle Humes34:33

       You're getting the spirit.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett34:34

       Yeah. (laughs)

   16. RHRochelle Humes34:34

       Um.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett34:35

       Marvin told me.

   18. RHRochelle Humes34:35

       (laughs)

   19. SBSteven Bartlett34:35

       Notically.

   20. RHRochelle Humes34:36

       Yes. (laughs)

   21. SBSteven Bartlett34:38

       (laughs)

   22. RHRochelle Humes34:39

       Um, it hasn't been easy though, goodness me, let me tell you.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett34:43

       Tell me. You said rolling with the punches. Tell me about the punches.

   24. RHRochelle Humes34:44

       Rolling with the punches. So, I knew exactly what I wanted. So, developed pro- ... We, we started off with a range of seven products, um, that we developed, which takes a long time. And please believe it's like, particularly when it's children involved, so the testing for any product, the process is quite stringent and it's, it's a full-on thing. But add newborn into it, we're dealing with a whole new level of testing which, rightly so. Um, so it took a while. It took three years in-

   25. SBSteven Bartlett35:12

       Wow.

   26. RHRochelle Humes35:12

       ... you know, for ... Before the pandemic hit and it was in store, it was three years work prior to that. And I'm never happy with something on the first round. It's notorious. It's not happened yet. It won't happen. (laughs) There'll always be something that I'm gonna change. So that obviously took quite a long time. And then it was me, I suppose, deciding from a sensible business perspective if I wanna take the risk and go on my own e-commerce first of all, or do I wanna partner with a retailer? Most people eventually wanna per- partner with a retailer, right? It's getting in there and it's, you know. And that's where I was lucky. You know, the, the business has been me and it's been my graft, aside from Rochelle Humes, but that's where I do feel lucky that I could use my profile to have a meeting with certain retailers and be in that room and, you know, use that to my advantage, which I did do. However, it can go against me too. So it's not always, yeah, okay, you've got that because you have had the profile that has helped with that, it's actually can, can go against you because, you know, what, d'you know, you're a celebrity coming into this world, and what, is this gonna be another celebrity range?

   27. SBSteven Bartlett36:25

       People say that to you, or was that kind of implied?

   28. RHRochelle Humes36:29

       Yeah, I mean, they said it without saying it as bluntly as I did, yeah. (laughs)

   29. SBSteven Bartlett36:33

       Mm-hmm.

   30. RHRochelle Humes36:33

       It was, it was, yeah, definitely implied. So then, so I was going through a whole thing and there was ... I'd had this moment where one of my products, um, was a curl-, well, is a curl custard, and ...That was key to the range. Like, that's happening. And there were quite a few retailers that didn't feel the need. They liked the range. I think they liked the range and they liked the association with me and what that might bring to their store. But the values and everything else that comes with the brand that I've created, they wasn't so interested in. So-
6. 52:35 – 1:13:35

   Black maternity scandal

   1. SBSteven Bartlett52:35

      spent your whole life thinking and, you know-

   2. RHRochelle Humes52:36

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett52:37

      ... being the Blackest person in- in my circle. And I, uh, uh, funnily enough, I was posted on, um, an Instagram account when I was announced as a dragon, and the debate in the comments section from this kind of, like, Black Instagram account was all around whether I was Black enough. And it was Black people saying, "Well, he's not-"

   4. RHRochelle Humes52:55

      Black enough for what? For what?

   5. SBSteven Bartlett52:56

      I don't know. To, like, be part of that community?

   6. RHRochelle Humes52:58

      Right.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett52:58

      Like, I'm too much of a lighty. I don't even know what that means. I'm- I'm- apparently, I'm too much of a lighty to be...

   8. RHRochelle Humes53:03

      (laughs)

   9. SBSteven Bartlett53:03

      ... um, to be part of that community. And I just think... I have to say it, and I just don't give a fuck, because no one can fire me. I just think it's pathetic. I think, personally, I think it's totally fucking pathetic. Like, B- Black people trying to decide whether I'm Black enough-

   10. RHRochelle Humes53:16

       Mm-hmm.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett53:17

       ... to- to understand. Like, my mother is Nigerian. I was born in Africa. What do I have to l- What do I have to do to be able to speak to-

   12. RHRochelle Humes53:24

       (laughs) Yeah, I, look, I- I'll be honest with you. I found that really hard. And I actually found that probably the hardest thing that I've come across in my career. I found it really... So our background on that, before we come to this-

   13. SBSteven Bartlett53:41

       Sure.

   14. RHRochelle Humes53:41

       ... so, as you said, so at the time of filming the show, um, there was a campaign started, um, by two brilliant women, um, called Five Times More, and Black women were five times more likely to die in and around childbirth than their white counterparts. And if you, well, we say Black and brown women, but if you were from a mixed background, so I was four times as likely. If you were, if- if you were of an Asian background, you were three times as likely. And it- and it... Basically, if you weren't white, it didn't look good for you in and around childbirth. So, I got approached by a production company to go on this sort of journey into why. And at the time they asked me, I was very pregnant, and I just was like, "It's a little bit too m-" I found it a bit overwhelming. I was also scared about working, um, during COVID and that... You know, at the- at the peak of COVID, should I say, because we're very much still living through it. Um, because if you were pregnant, you were also at m- at more risk, and then obviously, if you were of a Black back- background and pregnant, you were at more risk of getting COVID, and also it was... So I was just like, "Look, I'm gonna be in my house. I will 100%..." Because this was just a pitch at this time, right? And you know how this works. You can make a million different programs, but none of them necessarily make it on telly. So I said, "Look, if you think you putting my name on this pitch to Channel 4 is gonna get it across the line, put my name on it, but I'm, in the new year, once I've had the baby in October-"... get, let me just, I will, I would, I'm here for it. I will do it. So, that conversation happened. They said, "Yes. We would wanna commission it. We'll wait for you. We'll do it in the new year." So, that was that. And then, fast-forward to, we announced that we were taping it, which was probably... We'd already started, but we announced, 'cause I think I wanted to get a couple more women that I'd found through my channel to maybe share their experiences. Um, so I sort of did a call-out on social media, announced that I was filming it and did a call-out to s- to say, "This is what we're filming." And it sparked a conversation. It sparked a real conversation of, "Did you know?" And a lot of people were like, "Yes." Whi- you know, white midwives had messaged me saying, "I've seen this," y- you know, "I would r- I'd like to be a part of it." You know, there's a, there's lots that needs to be, needs to be done here. But first and foremost, people didn't know those stats. And I think that was, for me, really important that we, we get that on a big stage. There's some women that have been doing some incredible work for years, tr- working tirelessly, um, to promote these figures and to, you know, get some sort of acknowledgement that this happens. So, let's give it a big voice, right? So, first of all, the conversation was... And that was the feeling. Everyone was like, "Well done. I didn't know about this." And then overnight, the dial turned. There was a post that was posted on Instagram that was from another woman, who is an author, um, a presenter, that had said that she had been asked to front the same show. So, this conversation has happened and it was like, great. And then she had said I'd been asked to front this show, which obviously I'd woken up and seen this post, and was mortified. She was a darker-skinned Black woman. The first thing I did was DM her, was like, "This is my number. I don't know what shit has gone down here, but this is my number. Give me a call." To this day, I've not heard from her. And then that sort of triggered this whole conversation of the fact that I'd s- taken a, a darker-skinned woman's bread, and it, it... The, the dial switched overnight and I was... Can I tell you, I was beside myself, devastated because first of all, that isn't... I'm not s- whether you're white, Black, I'm not stealing any woman's bread. That's not for me. So I kind of wanted to get to the bottom of this. So I called Channel 4. I call... I was like, "Just tell me, has anybody..." Because I was on the pitch, right? So I was like, "This is bizarre because we pitched this together. Has anybody been asked to host this apart from me? Because I'm not cool with this and this isn't... I, I'll do it with her, we'll do it together, but this isn't the way that I work." And she, and, and she hadn't been asked. And obviously, as I said, there's lots of shows that are being made, so I'm not sure if there was another production that she'd maybe had word with and had maybe started making something similar. That I, that I don't know, and it's probably more than likely. So obviously, it sparked this debate around colorism, which is also a great conversation to be having. We don't have that conversation enough. But it wasn't the debate we were trying to spark. We were talking about maternal mortality-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett58:43

       Yeah, yeah.

   16. RHRochelle Humes58:43

       ... so it sort of snowballed into this chat. And colorism most definitely exists. I'm aware of that. I might be lighter than one woman, but I'm definitely darker than some. That's how my life has been. So, in a way I was like, "Look, uh, this is at my expense and this conversation that's sparked is incorrect and it isn't... This isn't how it went down." However, it sparked a conversation that I'm not gonna release a statement and stop it and say, "Listen, it wasn't..." And I'm not gonna out another woman for saying the wrong information, 'cause that isn't me. So, I let it, I let it go because I just thought, "Do you know what? That's also a conversation worth having." Yes, to some I definitely have it a lot easier because I am lighter-skinned. But as I said before, I'm also darker than some, so I understand it. So I let that conversation play out for that reason, because the more we talk about these things, the better, right? However, it was harsh and it was a hard pill to swallow because in this instance, this isn't... It wasn't it. I felt really hurt because I was, eh, eh... First of all, I was being denied of my Black gene-

   17. SBSteven Bartlett59:56

       Yeah.

   18. RHRochelle Humes59:56

       ... first off. Secondly, the community that I'm making this show for, and that, that we were fighting to get this on TV, it was the first documentary of this kind being made-

   19. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:07

       Mm-hmm.

   20. RHRochelle Humes1:00:08

       ... weren't happy about it until they saw it. And I was like, "Just wait and see it because it's actually not about me. It's about the brilliant women that have been brave enough to take part in this doc." So yeah, it was a really weird period of time because I genuinely didn't know how to handle it. Because I then, I, I then put the shoe on the other foot and then I said, "Okay, so if I'd been asked to do this, which I had, to do this show, put my name on it to get this commissioned, and I'd said no. If you think it's gonna get commission... W- but we really feel, Rush, that by putting your profile to it, we'll get it across the line, and if I'd have said no, am I not then doing my bit for the Black comm- am I not then doing what I should be doing?" And, so I really, I-

   21. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:47

       Imagine.

   22. RHRochelle Humes1:00:47

       It was a... Yeah.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:48

       Imagine, imagine, imagine if that, that story broke, Rochelle was asked to do this, um, documentary about, um, m- the increase in the, the, the staggering statistics of mortality in Black women at childbirth and she said no. Imagine that. You would've got the same... This is a lose-lose situation. You can win-

   24. RHRochelle Humes1:01:04

       It, we- and that's how it really felt.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:06

       Yeah.

   26. RHRochelle Humes1:01:06

       And I think that was the biggest frustration. And also, in all of this... So this big conversation happened. Fine, okay. I get it. And I'm not saying that colorism doesn't exist because it really fucking does, and it's awful and it's unjust, and it isn't right and there's a lot of work to do.... in that space, and I think that'll be something that exists for a very long time, unfortunately. However, that c- i- it wasn't it, and it wasn't right to make this situation about colorism. And yeah, I just found it a real struggle because at the same time... And, uh, there was a lady called Maz who's just a brilliant woman. She's a doula and she has been campaigning for this disparity for a very long time. And she said, "The thing that you're forgetting..." She called me because she saw it all go down. She was like, "Are you all right? Are you okay?" And I literally burst into tears, I was like, "Aah! I'm im- aah!" And she was like, "You're forgetting, you've, you've lost yourself out of these stats. Because being a mixed woman, you are still four times as likely to die than a white woman. You're losing yourself in this too, and your children, and the re- so you are still very much part of those stats. So let's not lose this here." You know?

   27. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:25

       Mm-hmm.

   28. RHRochelle Humes1:02:25

       These, the stats are about Black and brown women, so I had to remem- and th- there was talk of, we had a meeting at my management, "Are we go- are we gonna pull out of this? Should we just pull out of this because..." And I was like, "No. Do you know what? I'm not, because it's not actually about me, and they will learn that when this program airs, because these brilliant women have trusted me to protect their stories." We were so careful. We had, uh, we had one director, a Black female director, and it was just, we didn't have a soundy, we didn't have any, a whole crew, we turned up to these women's homes. And we protected, we wanted them to feel safe, so it was just her and I, and they could tell their story, and we didn't wanna sort of make them relive their trauma in a way that wasn't gonna be helpful. So we, it was, we, we did it in the best way that we could. Um, and what's interesting is I've had so many different letters since saying, "I'm so sorry that we wrote this article, because actually we watched the show and it's not what we..." So it's just funny that when I talk about that blue tick responsibility, one post can set a whole community alight when actually it was incorrect-

   29. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:38

       Mm-hmm.

   30. RHRochelle Humes1:03:38

       ... and that's where I think we all need to do better in our position to make sure that we're always posting the right information when we do that.

Episode duration: 1:35:59