Russell Kane: How To Build Confidence & Stay Young | E79

Steven Bartlett 0:00 (music plays) Russell Kane, he's known as a multi-award-winning comedian, presenter, actor, author, and script writer. But man, this guy is so much more.

Russell Kane 0:10 I started doing all this biohacking to survive on less sleep, to not lose your hair, or to slow down the aging process. It fucked my life in the proper sense. Everything fell apart. Like a junkie. How can I get more of that? My relationship with my girlfriend fell apart. My bills started to not be paid. I started to look thin. It's the closest thing to a drug addiction that I've ever experienced.

Steven Bartlett 0:45 Russell Kane. He's known as a multi-award winning comedian, presenter, actor, author, and script writer. But man, this guy is so much more. He's genuinely, deeply intellectually curious, something that honestly surprised me. And this sounds like it might be e- offensive or a weird thing to say, but I'm gonna say it anyway. I didn't realize how smart this guy is. Remarkably self-aware and on, to top it all off, brutally honest. He says it how it is. He has an ability to point out things that I think most of us muggles miss, and he's also genuinely just a really nice and hilarious human being. Today,

Steven Bartlett 1:26 you won't hear many jokes. This is the more serious side of Russell Kane, and a side of him that I did not know and would not have guessed before speaking to him. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. Russell.

Russell Kane 1:50 Hello.

Steven Bartlett 1:51 On- (laughs) one of the things I read when I was, um, reading about your story was a quote.

Russell Kane 1:58 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:58 Um, and I'm gonna read the quote to you. You said, "I remained a boy while he was alive, even when I was 18, and I needed to be a man to tell these stories." What were you talking about when you said that?

Russell Kane 2:12 Um, well, I don't think that's true of just me. I think any boy or probably girl who has a reasonably overbearing and dominant father, you sort of remain a, a child. Now that I'm a, a father myself, I can see that's true. So when my daughter Mina is 40, she's still gonna be my, my baby, so that's the positive side of it.

Steven Bartlett 2:32 Mm-hmm.

Russell Kane 2:33 The negative side of it is if it's quite an overbearing, masculine energy, y- the, you sort... I felt sometimes a bit like a bonsai, like I kept nearly growing and then the roots were trimmed. So I was fully grown but small.

Steven Bartlett 2:44 Mm.

Russell Kane 2:44 So if my dad was in the room, you know, I was instantly s- childlike, I would say, in- inside. So just a very dominating figure and I think that would've been the same had my dad not dropped down dead from a heart attack years ago. I think that would've been the same when I'd been 40, 50, 60. If my dad had been a n- 90-year-old shouting in the corner, I probably still would've been like that.

Steven Bartlett 3:04 Even if he wasn't in the room?

Russell Kane 3:05 No, no. When... As soon as, well in his presence I think, but so far as the s- that... I think that quote might be talking about stand-up.

Steven Bartlett 3:12 Yeah.

Russell Kane 3:13 I wouldn't have dared to tell the funny stories about him while he was alive I don't think, just on the risk he, he was offended or, you know, there'd be consequences.

Steven Bartlett 3:22 What was he like? For anybody that hasn't read your, about your story.

Russell Kane 3:26 Um, steroid-taking, shaven-headed, silver-back, doorman, right-wing, angry council estate, working class, barbell curl, semi-professional body builder, lifeguard, sheet metal worker, lagger, nutter. By lagger I don't mean someone who gets on it, I mean someone who puts the insulation on the outside of pipes. The hardest job you can imagine, crawling in boilers, ripping out asbestos, fiberglass, cut hands, white transit van, "Get out of the way!"

Steven Bartlett 3:55 (laughs)

Russell Kane 3:55 Just massive. Shirts tailor... This is, when he was taking steroids, that was before I was born. His shirt's tailored, trousers split in Hulk-like at the thigh, just a force of meat called Dave.

Steven Bartlett 4:08 Wow.

Russell Kane 4:09 (laughs) That was my dad.

Steven Bartlett 4:10 Actually called Dave?

Russell Kane 4:11 Dave. Actually called Dave from Essex. Um, so yeah, he was just very old school. So even though he, he was like, more like someone who was born in about 1920, he had sort of the politics and the attitude, very unreconstructed masculinity, quite knuckle-draggy. But just would just, you know, work himself to death to provide, barely raised his voice at me, n- certainly never laid a finger on me if he didn't, didn't need to. I find the truly terrifying Cockney can just give you some of the, "You fucking get in there now," and you're d- you're done. I, I, I, I, I actually piss came out of my body once when he spoke to me like that.

Steven Bartlett 4:49 Really? (laughs)

Russell Kane 4:50 I literally pissed myself. I was, uh... I'd thrown my brother on the bed and he was crying and there's nothing scarier than hearing the "Dun, dun, dun" on the stairs if you're done talking to your brother or sister and you know your dad's coming up the stairs. And he's like, "What happened? What have you done to your brother?" "And I just pissed myself." And that guy never laid a finger on me. That's power. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 5:10 My, my mum definitely laid a finger on me.

Russell Kane 5:12 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 5:12 I don't think I would've been scared of her if she didn't, but I was fucking terrified of my mum. Like, but she, but she would beat me, like, but my, but I couldn't imagine how she could have, have achieved that same objective without hitting me with something.

Russell Kane 5:25 It's, it's, it would be analogous of the nuclear deterrent threat.

Steven Bartlett 5:28 Oh.

Russell Kane 5:28 If you know I've got nuclear weapons, I don't need to fire them for you not to attack me. So I know, I knew my dad had nu- where- whereas, and this sounds incredibly sexist, but reality is once you're a 14, 15-year-old lad, you're the same size as your mum.

Steven Bartlett 5:41 Mm-hmm.

Russell Kane 5:42 There are no, you know, where are the nuclear weapons? She's gonna have to put her money where her mouth is and... (mimics explosion)

Steven Bartlett 5:46 But haven't you got to know how nuclear weapons work to, to know that they're something you need to k-

Russell Kane 5:50 That's it. I just need to, you just needed to look at my... You know you just, do you, to be honest with you, my dad's given me so many positive things. It's just that the negative things are funny, so that's why I talk about them disproportionately. But to teach someone, I'm 5'10" like a pepperoni with hair on, but when I stand on stage, I don't need to hit people or shout. They s- they sit in their seats and some of them in the front row shit themselves if I even look at them.So, who have I learned that from? It's partly my craft, but it's partly also what a good teacher has, uh, what a good dad has, like my dad, um, what a good standup has, male or female. That authority to stand there and hold a room with qu- a reasonable tone in the voice. Pin drop.

Steven Bartlett 6:32 Mm-hmm.

Russell Kane 6:33 It's, it's powerful. It's harder for a, a, a mum to do that, particularly where I grew up, there were a lot of single mums. Um, when you've got teenage lads that are sort of thinking, "What are you gonna do?" She's, uh, it becomes like an arms race, where the mum starts hitting the legs-

Steven Bartlett 6:45 Mm-hmm.

Russell Kane 6:45 ... and hitting the face.

Steven Bartlett 6:46 (laughs)

Russell Kane 6:47 And it's needed because that's what the mum's got to work with, I suppose. That's why, that's why I do believe, this is so sexist and old school, but I do believe, if not a man, two parental figures in, in place, one who can play the badass. Doesn't matter if it's two women, two men, whatever. I think if you've got two, it's double the force raising a child.

Steven Bartlett 7:06 Mm-hmm. It takes a village. Are you... I remember, you know, the, the way you've described your dad is, um, is quite different from who you are today, and who you were over the last 10 years. I mean-

Russell Kane 7:17 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 7:17 ... in... almost the antithesis. And I remember reading about th- the fact that you took a DNA test at some point to-

Russell Kane 7:22 (laughs) Yeah. No, I took a DNA test just out of curiosity 'cause I'm big into s- science. I wanted to know what diseases I was carrying. I've always been fascinated by my ethnic makeup 'cause my family history starts in living memory. I'm obviously a little bit darker than I should be to be a Brit.

Steven Bartlett 7:40 Yeah.

Russell Kane 7:40 So I sort of want... I wanted... I was interested to know what was in there. Uh, but part of me did go, "What, what if this is the moment I discover my dad's not my, my dad?" It did cross my mind, which is totally absurd. Sorry, Mum, if you're watching. Um, because he was blonde hair, blonde curly hair, blue eyes, very wide. Um, it just that we've just got nothing in common. My brother is the spit of my dad, but I'm like... I'm like my mum, just energetic, pepper army with hair on, running around, bouncing out of bed sick first thing in the morning.

Steven Bartlett 8:13 And, like, gen- in terms of, like, generational cycles, where did y- y- your dad get it from?

Russell Kane 8:18 (laughs) So, he always used to say to me, "I never had a dad."

Steven Bartlett 8:22 Oh, right, okay.

Russell Kane 8:23 So I've... So, and then my mum would ex- my mum would say, "So you've got to understand your dad didn't get taught how to be a..." My mum's gay, man. "Your mum didn't get taught how to..."

Steven Bartlett 8:30 (laughs)

Russell Kane 8:30 (laughs) "Your mum d- your dad didn't get taught how to be a dad, so he just know... he didn't know how to be around babies. He never learned that sort of thing. He never... he didn't have anyone to guide him." So he had quite a rough childhood. His, his dad walked out on him when he was about, I think he was about two. And my dad's mum, hard as nails, east, East End Esse- well, it was Essex back then, Barking. And it was just a tough childhood, you know, tough East London, Essex childhood where you, you just survived basically. And, uh, he, he had a lot of dreams. I think he would've liked to have gone the same way I did. He was quite a good-looking bloke so he got sc- scouted for modeling and things like that. He pursued that for a bit. He'd pr- pur- pursued the professional bodybuilding and even tried standup at- at, I think, like, at a Pontins or Butlins, he tried a little bit of acting. Only for a couple of years, and then he went into the hardest, I think, of all the manual labor you can do, which is sheet metal and insulation. So that, like I say, crawling along pipes and all that. So there's very... there are a lot of bitterness, a lot of unrealized dreams, a lot of abandon by your dad, a lot of hardness and negativity there from the childhood, and that plagued him his whole life. So if we were on a beautiful four-star holiday to Minorca and the sun shining, part of him would be thinking about the five-star holiday he could have. I'm not like that at all.

Steven Bartlett 9:49 How did you know, how did you know he was thinking that?

Russell Kane 9:51 Well, he would voice it half the time. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 9:53 How? What would he say?

Russell Kane 9:55 Uh, "That's all right. Imagine, imagine if I get the big job. Imagine if we would come back..." He'd be quite positive on holiday actually. But he would, like, "Just imagine, Julie, if we had, if we had more..." That's my mum, of course, Julie and Dave. "If we had more money, that house we could have." And my mum would be like, "Dave, we live... we bought our own council house. Thanks, Thatcher. It's a big house, biggest house in the street. We've got pillars out the front. Yes, it's a former council house, but we've got pillars, we've got a swimming pool in the garden, three beautiful bedrooms, lovely bathroom, massive house, dining room, front room, the two healthy sons." At that point. My brother was very unwell by the time he was 17. But at that point, you know, what was there to be negative about? My... It's a hard job my dad did, but good money. But he couldn't see that. He could just see his mate who started a glass company and now his son drove a Lambo and he lived in Chigwell, and, "Oh, I don't..." And when my dad passed away, we were going through the shed at the bottom of the garden and I found his diary. And it was lit- it was... honestly, it was one of the few things that made me cry when he died 'cause I sort of toughened up to help with the funeral and all that 'cause my brother was ill by then. And, uh, "It's just rain today. Didn't get the job. Shit day. James being a..." Can I swear?

Steven Bartlett 11:00 Yeah, of course.

Russell Kane 11:00 "James being a cunt." Eh, that's my brother. "Shit day. Fucking had a curry." It was like the diary of someone in prison. That's what it was like. It was... it's so weird that someone could be rich and not know it. I'm... I love making money, don't get me wrong, but I'm really good at enjoying what I've got. So I've enjoyed every level of my comedy journey, and I've never been bothered about whether I go further or not. 'Cause I feel like if you can have two banging holidays a year and you love the house you're living in and your family's healthy, done.

Steven Bartlett 11:31 He was engaging in upward social comparisons, right, the whole time. And if you do that, you're never gonna be happy, right?

Russell Kane 11:36 Absolutely. And you see that with people in, in my profession that are earning a million pounds a year, £2 million a year, and they're in debt 'cause they're buying an AP watch every week and they're going to the Maldives four times a year, and they've got the... they're in a £10 million house, they should be in a £5 million house. It's ridiculous.

Steven Bartlett 11:51 Mm-hmm.

Russell Kane 11:51 That's consumerism. But it works on a more micro level. So we would... if we're going to Stansted Airport to fly to Minorca, traffic's probably gonna be shit on the way to the airport. I'll bet you the traffic will be shit. So we're, we're already...... he's pre-imagining the traffic jam we'll be in. "If we hit a traffic jam, fucking knew it. Holiday, we'll probably miss the flight. Holidays! Fuck! Julie, I fucking told you we should have gone further! I fucking told you." He didn't shout at me, but he would shout to himself, sort of thing.

Steven Bartlett 12:18 Hm. Did you ever figure out where he learnt that behavior, where that came from?

Russell Kane 12:21 No idea. Like I say, it was just the... all the bitterness and negativity and expecting things to go wrong. That was his tape, his script. So if we were in a restaurant, and I'd be seven years old and I'd spilled a glass of water, not Coke or anything so he's not gonna get sticky legs, he'd be like, "Water everywhere, fucking meal ruined, I've got to sit here like I've pissed myself for the entire..."

Steven Bartlett 12:41 (laughs)

Russell Kane 12:42 He'd be like, "The worst thing in the world has happened." Like someone at that moment's probably found a lump on their body, but to my dad, the worst thing that can happen. So he... I felt sorry... Looking back now, you gotta, you gotta feel compassion and love, because it was just a constant tide of self-hate and negativity, basically, and imagining if we go and buy, um, something from, uh, IKEA that needs putting up, you know a screw will be missing, and it's because I'm me, because I'm cursed. A fucking screw will be

Russell Kane 13:10 missing. You can guarantee it-

Steven Bartlett 13:12 Fucking hell.

Russell Kane 13:12 ... like that, all the time. So for a little boy growing up, you've got to work really hard n- not to absorb that.

Steven Bartlett 13:18 I, I see hints of that in my dad, especially as he got older.

Russell Kane 13:21 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 13:21 A little bit more negative about everything, moods, you know, seemed to be irritable at a lot of things. And one of the things that crossed my mind was, "I hope this isn't genetic." (laughs) Like how do I avoid becoming this guy when I get to that age?

Russell Kane 13:34 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 13:34 Has that crossed your mind, that the generational cycle might continue to some degree without you noticing?

Russell Kane 13:43 O- o- obviously, yeah. I mean, seeing... So my brother, I don't... I can't really go into my brother's illness because he's literally not well enough to consent for me to talk about it, otherwise I would happily discuss it, because it's an important subject to talk about, but he's got some severe mental-health issues. Let's just leave it there. So my brother's really sort of un- un- refreshingly unaware of his mannerisms and gestures and postures, if you like, and it's just like my... He's like my old man. So how can your, you know, the way... th- the way your voice and the cadence of a sentence and the glances and the way you, you say, "No, I mean," and stuff like that, it is my old man. So I mean, on some genetic level, there are copies of how we express ourself. There must be. But apart from maybe your height, I can't think of anything you can't change with loads of, loads of ways. Education, cognitive behavioral therapy if you need it. I never have, but you can. Um, you can work on the way you eat, your diet, your lifestyle, all of those... You know, genetics is not destiny. One of the most fascinating things you can look up is identical twin studies. Over and over again, you'll get one twin that's two inches taller than the other, wher- where he's had a more successful... Not two inches, but he might be an inch taller, where he's had a more successful life, eating better food. So you can literally grow taller. There are... They're genetically identi- identical. So you can't tell me I'm destined to suddenly be negative about traffic jams if two identical twins can be different in height. You must be able to push against behavior. There's no-

Steven Bartlett 15:12 You see that film Three Identical Strangers?

Russell Kane 15:14 Yes, fantastic.

Steven Bartlett 15:14 Yeah, yeah, amazing.

Russell Kane 15:16 Absolutely fantastic.

Steven Bartlett 15:17 Good stuff, that.

Russell Kane 15:17 Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 15:18 Made me upset.

Russell Kane 15:19 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 15:19 It's inspired cr- you know, the ending's obviously tragic, but, uh, yeah, really powerful film, and I think that it shines a light on how...

Russell Kane 15:26 It does. It, it gives hope for all of us that you're not... You're only 50% of your dad and 50% of your mum, and... Although you're actually slightly more of your, your mum I've learned that out anyway. But, um, so you don't... You're not the... If you're only 50%, if twins aren't destined to be the same, you're not destined to be the same as a parent.

Steven Bartlett 15:44 Mm.

Russell Kane 15:44 It's, it's, it's bad. It's a bad way to think, particularly if it's a negative trait. It's a good way to think if there's something you want to copy.

Steven Bartlett 15:49 Yeah.

Russell Kane 15:49 Tell yourself it, chant it-

Steven Bartlett 15:51 (laughs)

Russell Kane 15:51 ... "I want to be more like my mum. She's such a cool cat," or whatever.

Steven Bartlett 15:54 We've w- we, we have also grown up in a slightly different culture, especially in the last sort of 10, 20 years, where we're much more aware of our psychology, right?

Russell Kane 15:59 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 16:00 And our, and our... and how trauma and childhood experiences have shaped us as adults, whereas I think my dad probably didn't know. So it was like someone back there in the control room running the show without him, and he was just a puppet to the shit he'd been through, whereas we are kind of a bit more open as a society now. So-

Russell Kane 16:16 Yeah, that, that's my biggest learning. Men- mental health comes on a spectrum. It doesn't mean mentally ill. We have mental health.

Steven Bartlett 16:22 Yep.

Russell Kane 16:22 Everyone has men- If we have physical health, we have mental health. Even if you have no issues, that's good. You are mental health. So mental health runs on, on a spectrum, so people that are cooking on four hobs, like me and you hopefully, all the way down to people like my brother, who are severely, severely ill with cognition issues. And people who are severely ill, or people who are trapped in time, like our dads before an awakening, they don't have insight into their current state. If you do not have insight into your condition, you are screwed, because if you're, let's say, for example, schizophrenic without insight into the fact you have schizophrenia, you will not take the medicine. You just won't take it. You'll look at the pill and go, "Well, I don't... I'm not ill." So you'll, you'll be in assisted accommodation your entire life. If you're schizophrenic but know you have schizophrenia, chances are you can have a relatively normal life because you know, "I'm ill, I need to take my medicine."

Steven Bartlett 17:19 Mm.

Russell Kane 17:19 And that... But you can translate that thinking to any aspect of business or commerce, to stand-ups, to entrepreneurs, because I've noticed... I call it black box

Russell Kane 17:30 thinking, from the Matthew Syed book. The moment you can have insight into a stand-up routine or into a business proposition in a proper way, where you can look at it and go, "That doesn't work," you're gonna be successful. People that don't have insight into themselves in their personal lives, they end up single, they end up in unhappy relationships, because they can't see their own faults. They can't insight into themselves and go, "This..." (paper rustling)

Steven Bartlett 17:53 Quick one. Starting from the minute the lockdown is lifted, we're gonna start bringing in some of our subscribers to watch how this podcast is produced behind the scenes. It means you get to meet the guests, meet myself, and see how we put all of this together. If you want that to be you, all you've got to do...I mean, this is just an impossibly tough question-

Russell Kane 18:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:10 ... because we're talking about self-awareness really, right? So like, how does... And people, uh, people have asked me this question for the last five years and I really don't have a great answer still. How does one become more self-aware?

Russell Kane 18:18 Well, I... It was literally part of my degree, so, uh-

Steven Bartlett 18:23 Oh, great. (laughs)

Russell Kane 18:23 ... I- I'm very lucky.

Steven Bartlett 18:24 Here we go. (laughs)

Russell Kane 18:25 So I start, I started doing English Literature 'cause I wanted to do the most show-off, un-Council Estate, posh subject possible, right? I, I mean, I was gonna get a, a first or I was... I don't know what was gonna happen, so I told myself, "I'm gonna get a first no matter what." That was preordained. Uh, and so I did two years of showing off about, you know, Roland Barthes and Jane Austen and all that. And there was an opportunity in the last year to cross over into creative writing, and the reason I did that, this again goes back to my dad, it's not very practical to be absolutely badass on Jane Austen unless you're gonna... wanna be a lecturer or an academic. Whereas creative writing, um, is a practical profession. You can go into advertising, you can go into journalism-

Steven Bartlett 19:05 Mm-hmm.

Russell Kane 19:06 ... you can try and write books, you can, as it turns out, go into stand-up. I didn't know that yet. There's loads of places where you can go, "Look, I've not just got a first in English, I've got a first in, in writing. I can take body copy and make your brand pop." So, part... How do you do a dissertation in creative writing? There's only one way. You have to submit 10,000 words normal academic poncing about, and you have to submit 10,000 word short story play, but you have to run through your own work and criticize it and say what you got right and what you got wrong. Once you've been through that and done it loads of times, you, it's- it just becomes natural to bring it to your life. A copywriter in an advertising agency has to be able to really hate the o- his own work he just created and find the faults in it, 'cause that will lift it above Ogilvy's copywriter and you'll win the pitch.

Steven Bartlett 19:57 Mm-hmm.

Russell Kane 19:57 It's as si- it's as simple as that. The person, the man who cannot realize he's domineering or jealous and work on that will not have a fruitful relationship-

Steven Bartlett 20:08 In order to-

Russell Kane 20:08 ... with a woman or a, or a man indeed.

Steven Bartlett 20:09 In order to do that with your life or with your copy, or with your work or whatever in marketing, you have to have a certain level of self-esteem and sec- personal security to be... to allow yourself to rise above your work and look back down on it in a critical way.

Russell Kane 20:24 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 20:24 A lot of people's self-esteem is so fragile-

Russell Kane 20:26 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 20:26 ... that the prospect of being critical is, ugh, it's just unthinkable. C- like, you know, and this is why people get def- uh, well, from my experience, why people get so defensive and-

Russell Kane 20:36 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 20:36 ... 'cause their, 'cause their, they're so f- if you... One shot to their self-esteem will take the whole house down, so then they immediately go like this. H- likes-

Russell Kane 20:43 So you could look at it that way. So I would say that person needs to learn not self-esteem, because self-esteem's a totally separate conversation. They need to learn objectivity. A piece of writing is a thing, a relationship is a, a thing-

Steven Bartlett 20:57 Mm-hmm.

Russell Kane 20:58 ... is, is that you've built with someone. Um, a comedy routine is a thing, a poem is a thing. The things over there, that's not you. You have to practice being able to take the piss out of the thing,

Russell Kane 21:11 criticize the, the thing. No, someone's not coming up to you and going, "You're ugly. Um, you're unlovable. Uh, you got a big nose. You're not tall enough." Stuff like that is gonna hurt and there's no way of getting objective. But if you can't look at a poem you've written and someone goes, "I really love the meter, but the adjective there is a bit obvious," then you should be able to thank that person, they're giving you a gift if they know their shit, but you're the one that should be saying that first. Eminem style, 8 Mile, seize the bars and turn them on yourself first.

Steven Bartlett 21:39 Hard to do.

Russell Kane 21:40 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 21:40 Because everything is like-

Russell Kane 21:41 But this, this makes better wor- it makes better work-

Steven Bartlett 21:43 Yeah.

Russell Kane 21:43 ... it makes better humans.

Steven Bartlett 21:44 Yeah. I completely agree, it's just im- really f- tough to do, like-

Russell Kane 21:47 Practice.

Steven Bartlett 21:48 Yeah.

Russell Kane 21:48 It's, it's practice.

Steven Bartlett 21:49 Practice.

Russell Kane 21:49 Like, I get a lot of, um... I, this is the message I get most often sent to me by my agent or on Instagram and it drives me fucking nuts. I had one the other week. "Oh, my God, I love what you do. I'm, I'm a really funny person." This is how it was phrased the other week. "How m- how many gigs would I have to do before I ex- could, like, open for you on tour? Can you have a look at some stuff I've filmed on my phone?" And I'm... I give them an answer that norm- I never get a reply to this answer. I say, "Okay, it's quite simple. Lucky for you, there is a really simple model to follow. You need to work unpaid for three years in the clubs three times a week. I wouldn't recommend a relationship and just warn your friends you're not gonna see them. I started to earn about £200-300 a week after five years. At that point, you're ready to give up your day job. On about the eighth or ninth year, you're gonna be ready to do a support slot." I never get that-

Steven Bartlett 22:41 (laughs) Fuck that.

Russell Kane 22:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 22:42 (laughs) It's like, it's like-

Russell Kane 22:42 People don't wanna hear it.

Steven Bartlett 22:43 Yeah.

Russell Kane 22:43 But you, if you went up to the guy in the gym who's 16 stone and 5% body fat and go, "Can you tell me how I can get like that?" He'd say, "The machines are over there, dickhead."

Steven Bartlett 22:51 Yeah.

Russell Kane 22:51 "Just get going."

Steven Bartlett 22:52 Yeah, yeah.

Russell Kane 22:52 The machines are there. You cannot skip the machine. You cannot skip the tricep station if you want triceps. You can't just go, "But I... It's gonna hurt. Uh, it's too much work to get a tri-" Then just don't get triceps. Don't, but don't moan if you don't have triceps. Uh, head to the dip station and see you in four years.

Steven Bartlett 23:11 I comple-

Russell Kane 23:11 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 23:11 Yeah, I... Now I've, I wrote about this. My book came out last week and I wrote about it in my book. I remember someone turning to me, it was actually the CEO of my company now, the company I've just left, and he said to me, "Steve, you know this personal brand stuff and this, like, speaking you do on stage?" He was like, "How long did it... Like, how do I..." He was like, "How do I, how do I do it?" And, and your brain immediately scrambles around looking for, like, three tips.

Russell Kane 23:29 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 23:29 Right? Three tips to describe, like, a dec- I remember my first talk in school at 14 years old, my hand shaking.

Russell Kane 23:34 Absolutely.

Steven Bartlett 23:35 The truth is, like, someone's seen you with a sharp sword and they've said, "How do I get a shor- sword that sharp?" Say, "Well, start sharpening it now-"

Russell Kane 23:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 23:41 "... and in 10 years time." But people don't want that. No.

Russell Kane 23:44 No- no one wants to hear the answer is boring, repetitive practice. For most, most people that are absolutely fucking excellent at something have done a lot of boring, repetitive practice that would be boring to the person asking the question-

Steven Bartlett 23:56 Yeah.

Russell Kane 23:56 ... not to us.

Steven Bartlett 23:57 Yeah.

Russell Kane 23:57 I loved every shit gig I did.

Steven Bartlett 23:58 And that's the difference.That's what kept you doing it for 10 years, or, uh, two decades, or whatever, is that you genuinely, intrinsic, loved it for its-

Russell Kane 24:06 And that's wh-

Steven Bartlett 24:06 But people want the rewards, right?

Russell Kane 24:07 But when they ... if they started and genuinely wanted, they too would discover that love. If you, if you say, "I wanna be a dentist, I wanna be a dentist," you start dental training and you're finding it boring in a slog, newsflash, you don't actually wanna be a dentist.

Steven Bartlett 24:19 You wanna be rich. (laughs)

Russell Kane 24:19 Yeah, yeah. So find something else. Find something where you love the journey. That is the secret side. That's what my dad never found. He di- he didn't find a job he took pleasure in. It's got nothing to do with coin, although I'm into it, but if you love the outdoors, you're gonna love landscaping whether you're on 17 grand a year or s- or 17 million a year. You're gonna love it because that's what you were born to do.

Steven Bartlett 24:40 It's such a counter-narrative to the narrative that sells, which is like short investment, big returns. It's like seven days, six-pack abs. That's a ... Everyone fucking signs up for that.

Russell Kane 24:49 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 24:49 Imagine, imagine at the, like, 10 years, maybe. (laughs)

Russell Kane 24:54 Maybe. Th- that's true. And that's ... And the problem is, a lot of the t- the TV we make, I make, uh, sells that. X Factor spot, do one song, live the pimp lifestyle. Now, of course, that is what, in the ... all of the X Factor that's ever been on and all of Pop Star: The Rivals, how many of those people are now platinum-selling artists living in mansions? What? Harry Styles? Try and name some.

Steven Bartlett 25:18 One Direction, that's it. (laughs)

Russell Kane 25:20 That's it. That's out of every single Little Mix jumor. That's out of every single one in a show that's designed to push people to the front in an artificial way. So if you think that's gonna happen, if you're Russell from Essex, you're deluded. Y- it's ... But any business, if you're passionate, mixed with a little bit of luck. People ... This is the other thing people like us don't like putting out there, but I'm afraid there is a, a bit of luck involved.

Steven Bartlett 25:45 Mm.

Russell Kane 25:45 And it sort of causing to ... Like we always sat here going, "I've worked so hard. Oh, look at me with my, my work hard badge." But at some point, we had some luck as well-

Steven Bartlett 25:52 Mm.

Russell Kane 25:52 ... 'cause we were in the right place, right time, mixed with the hard work. So some people are more lucky than others. Luck is a thing. And what luck is ... Not luck as in lottery number luck, but luck as in, "Oh my God, you've met the, you've met the perfect partner. You're the ... You've got the business. Oh, you, you were looking for a French, uh, a French Bulldog breed and you found exactly the right one at the right time when you were looking for a puppy. Why are you so lucky? Why is my life so shit?" So they tested this. They got a bunch of people together, half people who say, "My life's shit, I'm so unlucky," and half people like me who are like, "I've gotta admit, I'm a bit bl- ... I'm bl- #blessed, I do have a lotta luck." And they run tests on them. And the test they ran was very simple. The, the psychologist, a guy who's ... He's the British Jewish guy, really funny, brings loads of books out, Richard something or other. He's written a book about it, about luck. Look it up. They gave them a newspaper each and they went, "In there, go into your separate rooms, and on a page is a picture you're looking for. Whoever finds that

Russell Kane 26:47 picture, comes in first, gets a hundred pounds cash." That was the game. So everyone went in like that. On page two, in massive headlines, was, "It's a trick, stop turning. If you've read this headline, go and collect the money." That was on page two. All the unlucky people missed that. All the lucky people found it.

Steven Bartlett 27:03 Mm-hmm.

Russell Kane 27:03 Do you know why? 'Cause lucky people are a lot ... Eyes are open. They're hustlers. So it turns out you can make luck.

Steven Bartlett 27:10 Yes.

Russell Kane 27:10 You can practice that. You can hone it. That's something you can hone. Next time you walk into a meeting, just think, "Right, what's, what's that guy do for, for a living? Who's that? Is that a contact?" That's not luck if I sit down next to someone and he happens to be doing a s- a comedy streaming service startup and he signs me up. That's me being a bit bold and striking up a conversation and looking at what he's wearing and having a think. You can learn these skills.

Steven Bartlett 27:34 People don't like that because that sh- puts the mirror on me and creates personal responsibility, where I, I, uh ...

Russell Kane 27:39 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:39 You know what I mean? And, and I feel like in our society at the moment, this is just an observation I've had, personal responsibility is ... people fucking hate that.

Russell Kane 27:46 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:47 I did a ... I remember doing a tweet about, um, 'cause ... Okay, this was me playing a bit of fuckery but I don't care, right? So the left of society, which I probably consider myself to be on, are, are really in support of the NHS. So I did a tweet saying, "The biggest cost to the NHS is, like, smoking, eating bad, et cetera." So if you really care about the NHS-

Russell Kane 28:05 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 28:06 ... take care of yourself, da-de-da-da-da. Ugh. People were like, "No, Steve, this is ..." Literally, the qu- the replies were like, "This is not it."

Russell Kane 28:12 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 28:12 Because I'm basically saying if you genuinely care about the n- h- health service, here is all the data. The biggest burden on the NHS is people that are overweight-

Russell Kane 28:20 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 28:20 ... and people that are smoking or whatever. Um-

Russell Kane 28:22 Well, I ... The o- the obesity one's particularly controversial because there's two movements at the same time. There's personal responsibility and the science we're learning about obesity, particularly during COVID. I mean, if you w- if, if you want to do one thing other than social distancing, obviously get a vaccine, m- most of us are too young to have had a vaccine. So i- if you haven't had the vaccine and you don't ... and you don't wanna live life like a prisoner, the best thing you can do is get in shape quick. They ... Y- you're better off ... You're literally better off being a, I think, a thin smoker. Liter-

Steven Bartlett 28:50 Really?

Russell Kane 28:50 Literally, yeah. But it's a controversial conversation because, quite rightly, we're reevaluating beauty standards and a lot of people end up with eating disorders, and fat shaming and all that needs to go away. And as, as soon as we associate personal responsibility, longevity, and health with a body type, we're in a difficult area where we create shame for people based on how they look, which is something we wanna get rid of.

Steven Bartlett 29:15 Yeah.

Russell Kane 29:15 So for someone like me who's on, on the left, my head just goes pop.

Steven Bartlett 29:18 Yeah. You don't know where to start.

Russell Kane 29:19 Smoking is, is a slam dunk. Don't smoke, you're a bellend.

Steven Bartlett 29:22 Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Russell Kane 29:23 End of. Decade don't smoke, stop costing-

Steven Bartlett 29:25 Yeah.

Russell Kane 29:25 ... me money on the NHS. But someone that might be overweight, it's very, very complex to understand why someone's overweight. It's, it's something I studied a lot, not because I've ever been overweight, but because I'm fascinated by biohacking and body and all of that. And I think the most co- co- ... most illuminating thing I can tell anyone about being overweight is that eating too much does not make you overweight. This is ... No one understands this. I'm gonna blow your mind here.Being overweight causes you to eat too much. Once you have the metabolic condition of being overweight, that fucks your circuitry, which drives you to eat more. Obesity causes calorie surplus. So, shaming people for eating too much is a waste of time, because most people with busy lives and kids and no money are in a condition that's compelling them to eat more. It might be emo- emotionally compounded, it might be psychologically compounded. They might be recovering from abuse, they might be recovering from a bad relationship, they might just be skint and can only afford fucking nuggets, and they, they're just tired, they're not getting enough sleep. And unfortunately, until you get into, um, a low-fat state like us, where it's easy to regulate your calorie, your, every part of your body is telling you to feed this obesity. No one understands that. I've gone deep into the sci- I'm not a scientist, so look it up for yourself before everyone starts trolling me saying, "Literature degree boy."

Steven Bartlett 30:57 Mmm.

Russell Kane 30:57 But as far as I understand the science, layman's cards on the table, obesity causes overeating. Now, that is just boom, but it helps us to be more com- as much as I agree with what you're saying, it just, it leavens more compassion into people's weight loss journey. Although you're absolutely correct, if you don't wanna die of COVID and you don't wanna cost the NHS money, getting in shape's one of the best ways to do it.

Steven Bartlett 31:18 But of course it's not easy, and I've, I've had moments in my life where I've been most stressed, and y- it's a downward cycle.

Russell Kane 31:23 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 31:24 Like, do you know what I mean? So, you, you eat and then you, you require sugar more, and the sugar becomes this addictive thing in my life.

Russell Kane 31:29 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 31:29 And it only happens to me when I'm stressed.

Russell Kane 31:31 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 31:31 So, I'll have my little moments as a downward cycle in my health when there's a lot on my mind. And so yeah, I mean, compassion is certainly incredibly important in that regard. What about more broadly? So, t- outside of health, uh, the topic of personal responsibility. I like it 'cause it's controversial.

Russell Kane 31:45 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 31:47 Um, and I, I discussed the nuances of it-

Russell Kane 31:48 You trying to get us in the Daily Mail here, still?

Steven Bartlett 31:51 No, no, no, (laughs) no, I just-

Russell Kane 31:51 With me with her little head p-

Steven Bartlett 31:52 (laughs)

Russell Kane 31:53 "Fat people should pay for themselves." Just... (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 31:56 (laughs) No, I, no, just generally in your life and success and, like, um, what you can accomplish, the fortunate position I'm in, which is what I talked about with, in my last podcast was, because I came from, like, a very broke family where my mum can't read or write and I, I was born in Africa and, uh, we didn't have anything, no Christmas, birthdays, or holidays, my journey in life, people don't discredit it. They don't point at me and say, "Oh, you know, silver spoon, you can't fucking talk."

Russell Kane 32:17 Yeah. Yeah, same.

Steven Bartlett 32:17 So, I feel like I can have the conversation a little bit more about personal responsibility. Of course I'm fucking incredibly lucky, like, I didn't choose to be me. You know what I mean? I didn't choose my parents or the, the good and bad things that shaped me.

Russell Kane 32:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 32:30 But I, but I wanna, I wanna have a conversation about personal responsibility as it relates to career success, and let's, let's start with hard work, 'cause in our society right now there's two kinds of narratives. One is that don't work, like, it's incredibly hard, you're gonna burn out and you're gonna have mental health problems, and the other is, I've never met someone that's sat here in front of me that doesn't work really fucking hard, and I, I did.

Russell Kane 32:50 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 32:50 I don't know how I would've sat here without hard work and tremendous sacrifice.

Russell Kane 32:57 Well, first of all, we've sort of already made the point that a lot of people are working hard at things they hate.

Steven Bartlett 33:01 Yeah.

Russell Kane 33:02 So, working hard at things you dislike, hate, or find stressful will bring success and money, but at a cost. Working hard at things you love, I mean, I'm, I got, I finished filming at midnight last night in Maidstone. I got in at half past one, I had my dinner at 2:00, and I fell asleep at 3:00, and I bounced out of bed this morning to come here to do a podcast for the price of a car. Why? Because I love what I do. Now, if I was, had got in at 3:00 from working as a hospital porter, um, and had to get up to do another job, which was quite well paid this morning but I hated it, I wouldn't be buzzing. And that's what releases the cortisol and the stress hormone into your body. So, you can't compare, you're not comparing like and like even though both people are working hard. You've even got people that might be barristers or s- or doctors, really well paid professions, but find it stressful when they're burnt out and stuff. It's unlikely you and I will burn out, because I'm like, "What's next?"

Steven Bartlett 34:00 And you're intrinsically motivated by, you've got a sense of control.

Russell Kane 34:03 Exactly. So, that's, that's what I think the-

Steven Bartlett 34:06 Interesting.

Russell Kane 34:06 ... other thing, I think we can, we can differentiate there on hard work straight away. So if I, I'm more interested in the first thing you said about the, the join between people's origin story-

Steven Bartlett 34:17 Mmm.

Russell Kane 34:18 ... and how much stick they get for the success they've got, because I'm-

Steven Bartlett 34:22 Yeah.

Russell Kane 34:22 I have to phrase mine a lot more than you, because I get put in with the silver spoon guys because I'm a, just a, a white man.

Steven Bartlett 34:30 White male, yeah.

Russell Kane 34:32 So, I, I'm not gonna use real names here and I'm not gonna use real jobs because I respect, my profession is so hard I don't give a shit whether you're Prince Charles doing stand-up, anyone who does stand-up I just, it's so hard, stand-up (laughs) , um, and I don't think an elite background helps you in stand-up. It might help you in telly, in production. It won't help you on stage with a bucket of piss going through your...

Steven Bartlett 34:54 (laughs)

Russell Kane 34:54 But I've been told, m- on more than one occasion, "Oh, we'd love, we'd love to, we'd book you for the X show, but we've already got Olly, um, and so we, we've got Olly, we can't have two..." And I'm like, "How are, how is, how am me, do me and Olly represent the same thing?" I sometimes think, "Well, I've got more in common with..." I could phone up, I don't know if you know who Judy Love is?

Steven Bartlett 35:14 I do, yeah.

Russell Kane 35:15 She's a comedian.

Steven Bartlett 35:15 Comedian, yeah.

Russell Kane 35:16 I could phone up Judy now and we could speak for an hour about we both grew up the same, similar part of London, similar age, similar family. Yes, she's got Jamaican stories, but I've got Essex stories. That's the only difference in our conversation. We come from the same place economically, we come, we're fighting the same fight, we're punching up from, when, we're never, no one would ever say that. I'll probably be in trouble for even saying that. That's a controversial thing for me to say, and it shouldn't be, because if Corbyn and people like that have got it right, everyone who starts with what I call lower entitlement points, I've got a lot more entitlement points than a, a woman of color, undoubtedly, but I've got less, a lot less entitlement points probably than a Ghanaian prince, right?

Steven Bartlett 36:00 (laughs)

Russell Kane 36:00 So, all the people that have got...... fuck all, uh, or start with- should link arms. Doesn't matter what gender you are, what color you are, that would be powerful. I'm a bit nervous when we get carved up and we're a... People who're starting life in a tower block should... That tower block should be united. Do you know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 36:15 Mm-hmm.

Russell Kane 36:16 So that's the first point. But I do, I do think you- we get off, we do get off lightly if we've got money, if we had a more council estate background.

Steven Bartlett 36:26 (laughs)

Russell Kane 36:26 It's like a license to be okay with having money. Like I can wear my Rollie by the pool when I'm in Ibiza because I sound common.

Steven Bartlett 36:35 Yeah.

Russell Kane 36:35 If I sounded posh, I probably would keep the Breitling on.

Steven Bartlett 36:39 (laughs) Yeah. No, it's so true. Uh, uh, one of- one of my guests that I had on the podcast, um, went to a very good school, and, um, is white and blonde and very pretty. And she basically can't give advice to anybody without the papers-

Russell Kane 36:57 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 36:57 ... smashing her, or social media. In fact, there was a meme before- the week before she came on the podcast, there was a meme that went viral. I think it did 250,000 retweets when she- the day she released her book, and it was this- someone pinned someone up against the wall with a big trumpet, and it was like, "White privilege telling you how to- how to become rich." Like, she is not allowed to give advice to anybody-

Russell Kane 37:18 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 37:18 ... because she's white and went to a good, uh, Oxford.

Russell Kane 37:20 I mean, how much good insight and business knowledge and whatever do we lose?

Steven Bartlett 37:23 She's like, so many people went to Oxford and didn't build multi- multimillion pound, two multimillion pound companies, I still wanna hear this, from this person, right?

Russell Kane 37:30 If someone's offering you knowledge, she's not- it's not like she's telling you about her struggles. "Uh, the other day I, there was a queue in Waitrose and I just couldn't care." That, that would be the trumpet.

Steven Bartlett 37:40 Yeah (laughs) .

Russell Kane 37:40 Right? She's trying to tell you how to build a business. It doesn't matter where you c- if you come from space, if you can make me money, tell me how. If you can tell me how to start the next comedy streaming platform service, where I own s- 40% of the shares-

Steven Bartlett 37:52 Yeah.

Russell Kane 37:52 ... I don't give a fuck if you've got a double firsts from Cambridge-

Steven Bartlett 37:55 Hmm.

Russell Kane 37:55 ... or whether you're one of the mandem, I don't care. Show me where to- show me how to do it. You gotta have- you gotta have an open... Knowledge is, is, is- once it's out there, is democratic. The path to acquiring it is not. Um, but there's no doubt about w- let's try and stay on topic, what you're saying about personal responsibility is- I'm really split on this because I don't believe it's true that anyone with enough will and luck can make it. I think we're probably outliers and freaks and just wired a bit different and have got what it takes to push through. I think if enough blocks are in place, you're a single child of a drug using mom in a tower block, and I am built of stronger stuff, so I've bounced through my childhood and I've come out the other side, but a lot of people aren't. If we were all born the same, then why aren't I playing basketball? Why am I not sp- sprinting?

Steven Bartlett 38:46 Mm-hmm.

Russell Kane 38:46 Why am I not, um, a maths scholar? You know, some of us are born genetically more equipped in other departments. I'm clearly a highly energetic person who's good at motivating themselves.

Steven Bartlett 38:57 Mm-hmm.

Russell Kane 38:57 Some part of that is inborn. I was like- I was like it as a baby before I could speak, you know, the other toddlers are like, uh, dribbling on their blocks-

Steven Bartlett 39:03 Mm-hmm.

Russell Kane 39:03 ... and I'm like, "Where the block's at?" So it's unfair for us to go, if only, uh, Neil at the top of the tower block could have been like us. He too could have, have been an entrepreneur because maybe he- just being a single mom, being of color or being transgender or being a... Not everyone has the strength to push through those things.

Steven Bartlett 39:25 Hmm.

Russell Kane 39:25 Not everyone does, and it's unfair to go up to a wheelchair and go, "Just stand, mate. I'm using willpower with my legs. Why can't you?"

Steven Bartlett 39:32 Mm-hmm.

Russell Kane 39:32 'Cause some people that- that is a wheelchair, their social background, and they don't have the strength and then they start using drugs and they just sink too low. Not everyone can pull themselves out. That's why we do need more equality.

Steven Bartlett 39:44 Yeah, I agree. I'm definitely pro equality. I- I- there's a sense of helplessness I get if I, like, if I go all the way and say, you know, successful people, well, they were born with something.

Russell Kane 39:54 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:54 It creates a sense of like, well then you- we're all just stuck in our lanes forever.

Russell Kane 39:58 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:58 And if I believed that when I was shoplifting pizzas in Manchester.

Russell Kane 40:01 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 40:01 But then, again, so what I do understand, I actually, when I refle- the harder I reflect, I basically give myself credit for nothing because I was born into a situation in a country... I actually think my bad experiences are why I'm here.

Russell Kane 40:13 Yeah, same.

Steven Bartlett 40:13 Like the fact that my parents weren't around at 10 years old created this big gap of independence, et cetera, et cetera. I've told this story a million times, but it's the bad shit that- is the reason that I became an outlier, I think.

Russell Kane 40:23 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 40:23 I became very obsessive, obsessed with money. My book, that's why it's called Happy Sexy Millionaire because it's the first page of my diary when I was like a kid. You know, I wanna be a happy... Why did I want to be a happy sexy millionaire? Because we were fucking broke.

Russell Kane 40:32 Have you got siblings though?

Steven Bartlett 40:33 Yeah, I've got three-

Russell Kane 40:34 So are they all happy sexy millionaires?

Steven Bartlett 40:36 Not one of them. None of them are like me and they don't understand me either. They look at me and like scratch their head.

Russell Kane 40:41 But what does that tell you? It's- it's almost like you've run a controlled experiment.

Steven Bartlett 40:44 Exactly.

Russell Kane 40:45 Start tuning out, um, genetics versus willpower.

Steven Bartlett 40:49 I- the- the difference between my childhood experience and theirs was they were raised by parents and I basically wasn't.

Russell Kane 40:54 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 40:55 So by- I was the youngest. So by the age I was 10, my parents were like, "Oh, we've done parenting now. We will work all the time and we will be out of the house when Steve comes home and we'll be out of the house when he wakes up." So I was the only one where the- the experiment was total independence.

Russell Kane 41:12 So thought experiment for you. If you'd have been born a fraternal twin, another boy...

Steven Bartlett 41:16 (laughs) Yeah.

Russell Kane 41:17 So- so as- as much your brother as your other brothers, but happened to be born at the same time, same conditions, same school, everything happens. So do you believe you would have another happy sexy millionaire living in the flat opposite? Or do you think it depends what that brother's personality was like? Because we both know that that brother's personality is what would have decided whether he sat at this table with us today or not. And personality does come into it. We are born with different personalities to an extent.

Steven Bartlett 41:43 Hmm.

Russell Kane 41:44 So I'm not saying we're all stuck in our lanes, but I'm saying we need more social mechanisms because b- some Einsteins don't have energy. Some Einsteins might- might be a bit emotionally weaker. So we're... Say in my example of Neil at the top of the tower block, he might be really fucking amazing. We will never harvest that talent because our society is set up with too many blocks in place to scoop it out. We had one thing in place for about 40 years called grammar schools.

Steven Bartlett 42:10 Hmm.

Russell Kane 42:11 ... very controversial, very unfair, dumping a load of 11-year-olds in the thick bin. My mum went to a secondary modern. My dad went to a secondary modern. My wife, my brother-in-law, my mother-in-law, and father-in-law all went to secondary moderns, so I know people who were told, "You're no good at- at 11." So I don't say this lightly, and I know how horrific that is. But the data does suggest that there- there was a short period where we scooped off some bright, poorer children, not necessarily Neil in the tower block, but at least the poorer children whose parents meant well but were- were too poor. We got them. We got more Einsteins.

Steven Bartlett 42:49 Mm-hmm.

Russell Kane 42:49 When you watch Question Time, switch it on, and you know, "I went to a state school," and they're giving

Russell Kane 42:54 all that, it will always be a grammar school, always. It's very rarely, "I went to the local comprehensive, and now I'm an MP." It's always, "I went to a state..." Which state school? It's a grammar school. You went to an elite education then, state, but elite selective.

Steven Bartlett 43:06 Hmm.

Russell Kane 43:07 So we need some more stuff like that. Uh, what can we do in our communities? What can our youth workers do? What- what can we set up in- in- in council estates, head hunters that look for talent, uh, particularly boys. I'm gonna say that 'cause I was a boy once. But there's a real problem with teenage boys. All this testosterone kicks in, and it goes the wrong way for most of us.

Steven Bartlett 43:28 You... When I hear one of your podcasts, you ask very controversial questions. I think you like those questions. Those are the ones that are most interesting to you, aren't they?

Russell Kane 43:34 Yeah. Well, I- I- I... yeah, as long as I don't get us in trouble. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 43:37 Well, it's hard to tell. (laughs)

Russell Kane 43:38 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 43:39 Hindsight's a wonderful thing. Um, so, my, I guess, my... I was just thinking then, this is a controversial question, but he asked me a controversial question, so I can ask him.

Russell Kane 43:46 Go for it.

Steven Bartlett 43:46 Is there no hope for some people? What... I... give me con- so zoom out, context.

Russell Kane 43:50 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 43:51 Got a friend, tried really hard to help them change their life or do something for themselves, 10 years of effort, made all the offers in the world to this person, still Job Seekers Allowance, you know, som- somewhat depressed, can't seem to have any impact. We grew up in the same street. We were best friends my whole childhood. I went off. He stayed there.

Russell Kane 44:12 I've got tons of examples like that, so I'll have to speak very euphemistically now. I'll be canceled, not by the internet, but by my-

Steven Bartlett 44:18 (laughs)

Russell Kane 44:18 ... friends and family/associates/ I don't even wanna say which group these people are in.

Steven Bartlett 44:22 (laughs)

Russell Kane 44:23 Uh, I've... all of this. I've had female friends who I'm like, "Stop dating bastards." And the next guy, he's nice. He's a coke dealer, and he's like, he's gonna fucking... he's cle- he's gonna shag your mate.

Steven Bartlett 44:32 (laughs)

Russell Kane 44:32 And it... some of these women are getting to 35, you know, like with the final egg in the goblet, like in Indiana Jones, waiting to be fertilized. And, um, this... the next guy, he's go... well, he's got three kids by three different women. He has... he's got an electronic tag, but it's great 'cause we can spend some time in

Narrator 44:46 (laughs)

Russell Kane 44:47 Just bang a boring guy or a guy that likes Dungeons & Dragons or an accountant. What... they can't... there's a sexual attraction there to bastard men that some women, particularly f- from my sort of background, working-class women, find hard to get over, would be one example. But you can get over it. It is possible to do it. The mistake people like you and I make is we try to help. And say you've got a friend who's unmotivated, depressed, leaves every job after three months. It's always someone else's fault. It's always the system. It's always, "If only Corbyn was in power." It's, uh, "My dad did this. My mum did that," always putting it on someone else, and then they... you're making it worse by putting it on you. "Let me help." You're just a positive version of that. The solution is, well, them... they have to switch the light bulb on in themselves. They may not get there. But the moment they wake up and go, "Today is the day I'm gonna try and change my life," they should... they... that... the first step. It might be speaking to a therapist. It might be changing your career. It might be enrolling in A levels that you do at nighttime, like I did. That was what... lucky enough, my revelation came at... when I was 18.

Steven Bartlett 45:57 'Cause you were on Job Seekers Allowance at one point.

Russell Kane 45:58 I was, yeah. I did my A levels late 'cause I had this spark moment. But it's gotta come from within them. It's not something, as yet, although science might get there one day, that we can give to you in a pill or a- an injection. You've got to suddenly have in... right back to the beginning of the chat, insight, and be like, boom, chest out, "I'm gonna see a therapist. I'm not gonna use negative language. I'm gonna get this self-help book," which- which gives me some CB, cognitive behavioral therapy tools. I always mix up with cannabis (laughs) and cog-

Steven Bartlett 46:27 (laughs) CBT.

Russell Kane 46:28 CBT. Um, so yeah, it's- it's gotta come from them. But for you and I, fix is how can we solve it, how can I redraft the copy, what's the solution? Unfortunately, the solution is trying to get them to have some insight. So if you have got a friend like that, maybe have that sort of conversation with them that spurs self-reflection. Because giving them a million-pound-a-year job is just gonna make them worse 'cause that muscle that's atrophied-

Steven Bartlett 46:51 Mm-hmm.

Russell Kane 46:51 ... will stay atrophied. That sort of standing up, making your own strength muscle.

Narrator 46:57 (paper crumpling)

Steven Bartlett 46:57 I've been on my Huel journey for a couple of years now. But in the case of some of my best friends who I've talked about on this podcast before, one particular friend called Ashley Jones, who knows that I talk about him and his

Steven Bartlett 47:07 transformation story, he did have a problem eating certain foods. And so he transitioned to making Huel a greater part of his diet, and the guy went from being... and I'm sorry, Ash, if you're listening. The guy went from being, like, slightly overweight, constantly, um, having health issues that aren't related to, like, you know, being slightly overweight, to being... to literally having a six-pack, posting his six-pack on Instagram, but more importantly, being high energy and feeling amazing. So when I'm, like, you know, talking to you guys about Huel, I do so with such a level of passion because I believe that it can really help change your lives in a significant way. I believe it can make you mentally better. I know it can make you physically better. And so, yeah, what a joy it is to have a sponsor that you believe in that much. Um, yeah. And they're also just really good people. (paper crumpling) One of the most, um, probably scary things, from my perspective, that you ever did was walking out on stage for the first time, for your first gig ever.

Russell Kane 48:03 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 48:03 Like, what the fuck were you thinking?

Russell Kane 48:06 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 48:07 ... going out and walking in front of people and telling fucking jokes. Are you sure?

Russell Kane 48:09 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 48:11 Like... (laughs)

Russell Kane 48:11 With me, it's even more complex because I don't know if you've had any standups on here before.

Steven Bartlett 48:15 Never.

Russell Kane 48:16 But the majority of them, and quite rightly so, will be like, "From a young age I used to watch blah, blah, blah on TV. I used to watch all these American comics. Uh, I used to watch Chris Rock, Bill Burr-

Steven Bartlett 48:26 Mm-hmm.

Russell Kane 48:27 ... Bill Hicks. I knew that's what I wanted to do, man."

Steven Bartlett 48:30 (laughs)

Russell Kane 48:30 Uh, I was like, you know, I was like the young boxer in the alleyway. I knew I was gonna box. None of that. Nothing. There is zero in my CV that shows an affinity for the craft of standup. Always been the joker. I'm not being funny today. I don't know why it's you got me on one.

Steven Bartlett 48:45 (laughs)

Russell Kane 48:46 But normally, I'm always arsing around. Not, this is not a thing I do on stage. I'm just, I'm li- like, the clown person.

Steven Bartlett 48:51 Why?

Russell Kane 48:52 Just, just my, that, again, I've just always been, I just love making people laugh. I've always been a, a joker. There's some data to suggest, um, youngest children have it, and I'm not the youngest child of the oldest, or people born in August and July, purely because if you're smaller than everyone else, you've got to develop your personality quick. So you, if you look at the Premiership, you won't find many footballers born in August.

Steven Bartlett 49:16 That'll explain why I never made it.

Russell Kane 49:19 August.

Steven Bartlett 49:20 August 26th.

Russell Kane 49:20 So you won't find many-

Steven Bartlett 49:21 26th as well.

Russell Kane 49:21 You won't find many sportsmen or anyone that requires size or physical prowess, those professions. So even if you turn out to be a very tall teenager, you're less likely to become a basketball player than a, a teenager one inch shorter than you who was born in October. The reason being, you'd have been pushed by the coach and taught and everything early doors at six, seven, eight years old. So, and there is some data to suggest that people who work with their personalities for a living, people that have to solve, entrepreneurs, and find little rat runs and alleyways, develop that based on being smaller or more vulnerable. But that can take lots of forms. I've got an overbearing dad as well. So I'm an August baby, overbearing dad, and some of it will be genetic. My mum's very funny. Um-

Steven Bartlett 50:08 And you tal- you talked a little bit about... I, I was reading some, some of your, um, previous interviews, you talked a little bit about how it was a bit of a defense mechanism maybe in school, if that's, you found your place-

Russell Kane 50:16 That's what I mean, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 50:17 ... by being a...

Russell Kane 50:17 Yeah, I wasn't bu- uh, but I don't know how I wasn't bullied, but I, but I wasn't. The smallest, no girlfriend, um, wasn't in with the in crowd at all. I was sort of like an ex- in a, in a sort of external group that had diplomatic immunity. Definitely a virgin, definitely no cool friends, definitely one of the idiots, but we don't punch him 'cause he's sort of all right. Obviously, I did get, it was a working class school-

Steven Bartlett 50:41 Yeah, yeah. Everyone got punched.

Russell Kane 50:42 ... I did get punched a lot, but not as much as...

Steven Bartlett 50:44 (laughs)

Russell Kane 50:45 I was in that league, you probably won't even remember them, just above the bullied, the boring gray league.

Steven Bartlett 50:50 Yeah, don't, no, no point.

Russell Kane 50:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 50:52 Yeah.

Russell Kane 50:52 Which is the place to be at school. 'Cause if you're popular at school, we all know, you're gonna have a shit life. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 51:00 (laughs) That would have been a promo, just like... (laughs)

Russell Kane 51:02 So anyway, so because of where I grew up, it's not, people are like, "Well, how can you have no contact with standups?" You gotta remember my age. I know I look young, young for my age. I'm 45. So what was my dad watching on TV? Jim Davidson, Bernard Manning, Jimmy Jones. It's like Bruce Forsyth and Jimmy Tarbuck, li- you know, live at the Palladium and all that. It's not that, obviously, they're all talented comedians, and I do, I do mean that. But it just didn't resonate with what, it's not, it's not about my life. So I'd l- I'd laugh 'cause my dad was laughing. But I was like, "What's this crazy art form? I gotta learn more." Me and my friends, mostly either smoking, it's all about getting high, or we'd watch old Young Ones or whatever the funny sitcom of the day was, Men Behaving Badly or whatever it was. That's what I thought comedy was. No, we didn't go to the theater at the weekend. We didn't, like-

Steven Bartlett 51:53 Mm-hmm.

Russell Kane 51:53 ... "Which cultural pursuit should we do this weekend, family?" It was like, Dad works all week. He's tired. We have a curry. Your nan looks after you. And then when you get to 15, 16, you get stoned over the park, get someone pregnant, work in a shop, die. That's it.

Steven Bartlett 52:04 (laughs)

Russell Kane 52:04 That's, it's the finish line. So I managed to, like I say, have this weird entrepreneur turn my life around, get my first class degree moment. But just by sheer bad luck, I ended up at a university that did not have a standup night. Most of them do.

Steven Bartlett 52:18 Mm-hmm.

Russell Kane 52:18 So again, I went those three years without any exposure to, in the student bar, standup. It was all music. There was some theater. No one talked about standup. We didn't have this sort of slightly fashionable thing now of being obsessed with American standup. So I like to say to my British colleagues, "Just remember, if you start having this sort of slick quality to your standup, it can look a bit mannered." Um, that's just a side point. So I went all the way to the office, to my dream job as an advertising copywriter, with no contact with standup, just being funny as fuck, the clown, you know, legend on a night out-

Steven Bartlett 52:50 (laughs)

Russell Kane 52:50 ... first one up dancing. But I didn't know that that was something you could do for a living. And I ended up doing a job I loved, branding, copywriting, headlines. Still love it. You can tell by, by the way I'm describing it. And then the creative planner was like, "You're always the one up at the pitches." You, I, I would do like, if we're pitching to a big client, I would do like the, the funny bit with interaction-

Steven Bartlett 53:07 Funny bits, yeah, yeah.

Russell Kane 53:07 ... to get them on side when I'm presenting the creative. He said, "Why don't you try standup?" Steven Workman, if you're watching, thank you. Um, "Why don't you try standup? We might in this Glasgow region." And I thought, "Do you know what? Do it once. Like doing a bungee jump or a skydive or karaoke." It's just, that's as far as my thinking went, something to tell the kids. So I wrote a few ideas down in a book, booked an open spot in, and I went and did it. It was very scary. I think I did a pack of Imodium before I went on.

Steven Bartlett 53:34 (inhales deeply)

Russell Kane 53:35 And my hand was shaking. And I got that... It wasn't, obviously it wasn't great, but I did well-ish, well-ish. First laugh was like someone stuck. Cocaine, heroin, ketamine, everything in my ve- no, not that I've done those drugs. But everything in my veins. And I was hooked, you know, in the proper sense of that it fucked my life. Everything fell apart. Like a junkie. How can I get more of that? I want a gig three night- I want a gig five nights a week for no money. I've got a creative director. We're talking about multi, multimillion pound accounts. Advertising is you work till 8:00 PM. You have pizza on your birthday under your table. You sleep at the office. I'm running off to do unpaid gigs in Manchester. My relationship with my girlfriend fell apart. My bills started to not be paid. I started to look thin 'cause I suffered with my nerves in the beginning. I'm throwing up, shitting, like both ends.... pro- it's the closest thing to a drug addiction that I've ever experienced. I would have not seen my mum for a year to chase this dream. It was- I was hooked with- on that laugh. I'm like, "This is what I'm born to do, I just fucking know it. How can I monetize it," basically.

Steven Bartlett 54:44 How- why were you hooked on the laugh? Why did the laugh matter so much to you?

Russell Kane 54:47 Just a rush. That's, uh, it's a rush. Anyone who's- I've, I've not taken any serious drugs, but anyone that's taken any recreational drugs, which is a bad analogy 'cause they're not actually addictive, but coffee, for example, I can't live my life without, without it. Why are you addicted? It's, uh, it's as absurd as asking me why I'm addicted to coffee. Because I go, "Whew," I wake up, I feel alive and have an amazing day. The same. Laugh goes in, buzz, uh, serotonin, pupils dilated. Afterwards, I wanna tell everyone about the gig. I was taking shit footage into work and showing it to people and playing it in the office. "Look at me! That's me! Look at- look at- come and look at me in this grainy footage." And, you know, I mean, that's so embarrassing that I did that. Uh, I just c- I couldn't- I just couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe I was getting laughs from strangers. It was- it's straight to the ego, straight to the cortex rush.

Steven Bartlett 55:38 Everyone has that. But do you- d- have you ever considered that you might have- that might have mattered more to you, maybe because of your childhood or whatever, than other people? That, that sense of, like, that validation and that-

Russell Kane 55:49 Yeah. May- maybe. I mean, I'd had plenty of validation at work. I'd had the whole office cheer, r- I've rung the bell when we've won big pitches, I've got the rush in the meeting, but it- nothing wo- It- it's the difference... I'm trying not to talk about drugs all the time.

Steven Bartlett 56:04 (laughs)

Russell Kane 56:05 It's the difference between going from a beer to M- MDMA, right? I don't recommend any dr- uh, hard drugs, obviously. Particularly people that work with their brains, you're a fool if you mess with the equipment. But you can't compare them. When you say everyone has that, not everyone's stood on stage to 1,000 people and seen people standing and clapping. That is different. It's of a different category of ego rush. Very dangerous.

Steven Bartlett 56:34 What problems does it give you?

Russell Kane 56:36 Well, initially all of the-

Steven Bartlett 56:37 What, what problems come with it? So you're talking about-

Russell Kane 56:38 Initially that. My l- my life fell a- my life fell apart like a junkie's. I was down to 10 stone at one point. Um, so it come to the point where I had to say, "This needs to not be a drug, this needs to be a food," and I left the agency. And then I was, phew, you know, off.

Steven Bartlett 56:54 Still today though, right? So all, all things come with their, their costs. What is the cost today of that, that career, and that rush, and that...?

Russell Kane 57:03 I suppose the worst thing is the travel. That is a genuine negative one. Since Minna's been born, my daughter, um, I actually quite like traveling, I like being in the back of a car, I love watching movies, I love reading, and I love eating on the move. So all the things that most people hate, I just happen to quite enjoy, just pure... I dunno why. 'Cause I'm always on the go, I like being forced to sit still-

Steven Bartlett 57:25 Mm-hmm.

Russell Kane 57:25 ... and watch a movie. So I love flights, for example. The longer, the better.

Steven Bartlett 57:29 Hmm.

Russell Kane 57:30 Um...

Steven Bartlett 57:31 Do you still shit yourself now when you g- when you're about to-

Russell Kane 57:33 Yes, big time. But so far as, so far as missing part of your child growing, massive negative doing a tour is. There's alw- there's a guilt feeling in your gut and, you know, you do cry a bit after FaceTime, and that's particularly when it's a baby. So that's the biggest negative I can think of. But once you're with a woman or a man that gets it, there's no negative in your relationship... I was with a couple of girls before who would make me feel bad about being away, whereas Lindsay's kicking me out the door. She's focused on the business, we're a team. "That's well paid. Fuck off, see you later. Don't call home if you're stressed, I'm cool with it." That's what you need, man. You need someone who gets it. I do shit myself though still, yes. D'you know when, d'you know the, the, um, Immodium scale goes up depending on how much of my

Russell Kane 58:14 show it is. So if you'd booked a show from me today, where you're gonna introduce me and I'm gonna do 20-minute stand up, and you've got 2,000 people in the room, there would be nerves there, a fair bit of nerves, but mostly I'm ready to n- knock the gig the fuck out with my first punch. If you've put an event on, and Michael McIntyre's closing and you're hosting it, and you're- to me at the last minute, said, "Russ, I've decided to do two halves. Can you do 20 minutes at the top?" I shit myself. Because they're not there for me, they're there for you and him, and I've got a conversion job to do.

Steven Bartlett 58:45 Right.

Russell Kane 58:45 And the risk is massive.

Steven Bartlett 58:47 Mm-hmm.

Russell Kane 58:47 Their Michaels fans are your fans. And that's when the nerves kick in, when I'm doing Royal Variety Show or Live at the Apollo where people have responded to a TV ticket, not me, that's when the nerves go back to old school style nerves.

Steven Bartlett 58:59 How, how do you, uh, what's the battle you have with those nerves, in, in terms of your cognition? And before you go on stage, what are the tips you can give people?

Russell Kane 59:04 Right.

Steven Bartlett 59:04 'Cause a lot of people-

Russell Kane 59:05 There's two, there's two ways to, to, to, w- to work on that. Um, the first thing is, the actual practical thing on the night, I would say, um, just work with breathing and mindfulness and all the stuff that you've probably read 1,000 times. The other thing to do is if you can find a way to do it, it depends which stage of your career you're at. If you're at the stage of your career like me and you, a lot of p- I'm not trying to be offensive here, a lot of people are sucking our dicks a lot of the time. So we're constantly walking into rooms where people think we're legends, it's never gonna be a difficult gig. Now and again, something comes up where you're the tadpole. And you, n- you, you don't have the hardware in place, and a fucking, uh, uh, Bill Gates is speaking before you, Oprah's hosting it, and all of a sudden, you're, "Who's this guy?" You're having a day of, "Who's this guy?" And we're all qu- we can all have a "Who's this guy?" day.

Steven Bartlett 59:51 Yeah. (laughs)

Russell Kane 59:52 And the only way to practice that is to put yourself in more, "Who's this guy?" moments regularly. So how I do that, as soon as my tour finishes, I book the smallest, hardest, weirdest, they might have bad lighting, they might have no microphone, they might be half sold, and I'm unlisted. Unlisted, unannounced, unexpected. And I walk onto tiny clubs full of drunk men, 50-year-old UKIP dads. All of those places, I put myself in those all the time because the risk is high, the nerves are the same, but the consequence is zero. So I'm constantly training the muscle of...... convert the people who don't know who I am.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:34 Mm-hmm.

Russell Kane 1:00:34 Keeping it sharp the whole time. So whatever business you're in, you'll be able to think of an equivalent way of doing that. So set up smaller situations where you're having to keep that muscle because the danger is the more successful you get, you lose the muscle of walking into a room full of skeptics. And if you lose that muscle, that's the money-making muscle. So practice it. I keep mine tight at all times. I constantly put myself in unbilled, unlisted, unideal situations. When you walk onto a stage when you're at my level, which I would call myself quite recognizable. You can't say I'm like Mi- Michael McIntyre or Chris Rock or someone, but I'm sort of known as a standup. So what that means is, when I walk on stage at The Comedy Store, late show, 400 people drunk off their tits, worked dos, hen dos, and I'm uni- unbilled, unexpected, unlisted, the room splits into three. Straightaway. It splits into, "Oh, my God. It's him. Fucking what a treat. We've got him for 20 quid." To the middle, "Who's that? Am I supposed to know who that is? Is he good? I don't know. I think I've seen him." And the final group, "Can't stand this cunt."

Steven Bartlett 1:01:39 (laughs)

Russell Kane 1:01:40 Um, that's the only group I'm playing to, with a little bit in the middle group. They're the only people I'm interested in 'cause that's where the muscle-building exercise is. And then when you go on stage to your audience, they get you like that.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:55 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if you come with that conversion energy to your own audience, you must be a, you must be a hot guy.

Russell Kane 1:01:59 You don't need it. That's the problem.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:01 Yeah. Oh, yeah. <|agent|><|en|>

Russell Kane 1:02:01 All you gotta do is put your foot out. And they're like, "It's his foot! He's amazing!"

Steven Bartlett 1:02:04 (laughs)

Russell Kane 1:02:04 That's, that's the problem.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:06 Yeah.

Russell Kane 1:02:06 That's the problem. You get flabby easy in all businesses.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:12 So you talked about your relationships

Steven Bartlett 1:02:13 there and your current partner. I, um, I heard you got married for nine months at one point.

Russell Kane 1:02:18 Oh, yes. Yeah, no, I did.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:19 (laughs) You'd forgotten.

Russell Kane 1:02:20 Yeah. Uh, sorry, I realized what you mean. Yeah, no, I did. I was, I was married biff- I was married, so I'm currently, I'm trying to enjoy my middle marriage. That's what I say to myself.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:30 Okay. Middle marriage. (laughs) Okay.

Russell Kane 1:02:31 No, I was, uh, so we, we were just... We realized we were just mates. Uh, yeah, there was a romance there. We had a lot in common. We were both into this same world, and we were sort of living together, and we got married, and we were like, "That was a mistake," and then we just weren't marri- We was, and it was totally amicable. No, no fighting, no, no problems at all.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:48 But you talked about the, uh, understanding that your current partner has, current wife.

Russell Kane 1:02:53 Yeah. So my, my former partner, the, the one I was married to for nine months had that as well, which is why it was so... We thought we should probably get married but then realized, I mean, marriage needs more than that. Um, so yeah, so Lindsay is more... Lindsay doesn't get jealous unless I do something dickhead, like follow a glamour model on the internet and then like a bikini pic, in which I get my ass kicked, but still do 'cause I'm Neanderthal.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:14 (laughs)

Russell Kane 1:03:14 And, uh, 'cause I'm a man, I'm a monkey, press button, can't help it.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:18 Oh, yeah. I'm not going to go there.

Russell Kane 1:03:19 Um, so unless I do something stupid like that, which I rightly get in trouble for, or, like, change my flight in Ibiza and go to a boat party, which I also tried to do and got my ass kicked for.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:29 (laughs)

Russell Kane 1:03:29 Um, so, but m- if I'm on the road and doing autographs afterwards and there's all, uh, girls in the picture or something, I've never ever... Like, Lindsay's just not even a flicker. She gets it. That's the job is every- you're everyone's friend. If the girls fancy you in the audience, even better. That means another Maldives holiday type thing. That's the way. She's in business mode. She is an ent- a s- a bit of an entrepreneur, Lindsay. She's got two businesses, and she sees my business as a business. Um, and she never, ever guilts me over being... I might be away for four nights. I won't... Some days, I've gone, "Shit, I didn't phone home. I didn't text. I didn't even..." Now and again, all I have to do is do a good night, and she knows that my head might be full. There's never any fallout, never. And that just makes the trust and the bond. It's just, of course I then do call home m- w- it just works 'cause of that.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:22 You're someone that will get a lot of attention because it's, I mean, it's your job, right? It's like to, to holding, keeping attention.

Russell Kane 1:04:27 Yeah. Literally to seek attention is my job.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:28 Yeah. And, and women, they love funny guys, right? So-

Russell Kane 1:04:31 Oh, God.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:32 ... you know, probab- I, I don't know if this is gonna get you in trouble, but you know that you could have a lot of different partners if you wanted to.

Russell Kane 1:04:39 Yeah. I could be harvesting 24/7.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:40 (laughs) Right. That's what I mean. So-

Russell Kane 1:04:41 I probably would have fractured pelvis by now if I hadn't got married.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:44 People are gonna hate this question 'cause they think I'm encouraging it, but I'm here to play devil's advocate.

Russell Kane 1:04:48 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:48 Okay? (laughs) Why aren't you?

Russell Kane 1:04:51 Well, um, I fell deeply in love and got married, and I'm just... Again, you go back to the childhood, undivorced parents. It's just what I modeled on is... I've never had a problem with saying to a girl, "Um, the relationship's done. My head's starting to be turned. Let's move on." And as much as it breaks my heart, if I ever felt that way, I would... Obviously, with a marriage and a child, I would sit down to l- to, to Lindsay and say, "There's an issue here. I've started to have these thoughts. How can we work on it?" And we'd, we'd work something out. So that's just my way I operate. Hardly any men do. Sorry, girls, for my, for my sex.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:26 I was gonna say. Very rare.

Russell Kane 1:05:26 If only men did. I mean, uh, but they don't. So I'm trying to... A man should go, "I haven't done anything, but I'm having these thoughts. What does it mean? Does it mean we're not in love? Does it mean sexually that our relationship's not exciting? Is there something we can do that... Some games we can play to mimic that? I don't know, whatever that..." Couples need to just have that conversation 'cause if you pretend men and women aren't having those thoughts, you're naive. So you need to keep the relationship alive. That's the way to do, to do it. Why, why am I married? Well, A, I'm 45, remember? Uh, and B, I, I'd, I'd been... I'm more serial monogamist. So I'd gone from age 16 to 30 odd, be with a girl for three years, break up, get straight with another girl. Literally the next week, break up on anywhere between nine-month to three-year relationships. Never had a one-night stand. I'd never been single. I'd never been on a lads holiday. So when I split up, it was a bit weird, but my mum was like, "You are not gonna find a sustainable relationship because of all these reasons you said. You're gonna get a lot of female attention. You're always gonna wonder what it's like." She went, "If I was you, I'd have a year on your own." So I set the clock, and I was like-... punani master in action.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:39 (laughs)

Russell Kane 1:06:39 And, uh, well, not cynically, not cynically shagging-

Steven Bartlett 1:06:42 That's gonna be the promo clip. (laughs)

Russell Kane 1:06:44 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:06:44 (laughs)

Russell Kane 1:06:44 But not cynically shagging, but being sin- it's more to, more to it than just shagging. It was like just being in a, living in a flat on your own. Bought, a s- banging flat in London, one I've, I've still got. I use it as my London residence. And I just thought-

Steven Bartlett 1:06:59 (laughs) Oh, you've still got it?

Russell Kane 1:06:59 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:00 Does your wife know? (laughs)

Russell Kane 1:07:01 Well, we stay there all the time.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:02 Okay.

Russell Kane 1:07:02 And, uh, she's, uh ... And I'm like, I can, I can come out and live ... I never lived on my own before. I'd always lived with a woman, always lived with a girl. And, uh, it was just nice. I'd just be in my pajamas, have a curry, and then I could, I could overwhelmingly, I would just think, "I'm gonna go out in the pool after the gig." And that gets boring quick, unless you've got some sort of, um, issue, like sex addiction issue, and you're addicted to lots of different women. I'm not that type of, like, dominant guy that needs to fuck a thousand women to prove I've walked the earth. Um, I more ... without getting too personal, I do enjoy ... I'm a highly sexed individual, very, unfortunately for Lyndsey, incredibly high sex drive like a 19-year-old lad.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:43 (laughs)

Russell Kane 1:07:43 But it's sex I enjoy, not conquering women. So I can quench that thirst with one woman over and over again.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:52 (laughs)

Russell Kane 1:07:52 But I did wanna know what it was like to, you know, to be single, to be free. And part of that, I'm sure it's the same for a woman, for a man, is to go what's it like to have a one-night stand, or to be, to be a, have this rockstar lifestyle and sleep with loads of women? The difference I did it was if I was going out after a gig, or if a girl had DM'd me and we were going out or whatever, just missed Tinder-

Steven Bartlett 1:08:13 (laughs)

Russell Kane 1:08:13 ... um, I would say, "This is where I'm at. This is what I do for a living. I'm single. I, I'm, I li- I do love making love, and I love going out, but there is no relationship here." I would never went to bed with a woman dangling any fake carrots, ever. I think it's a form of, I don't wanna use language too strongly, there's a sort of con- a consent tweak in there if you're lying ... if you're in power position like me and you're saying, "Let's go. Let's see where it goes," but you just wanna fuck her. I think that's wrong. I think that's morally wrong. I think you should say, "This is what it is. I wanna party with you. Can you handle it?" And newsflash, most women are looking for that too. So I had a wicked time for, for a year, and then one of those girls (laughs) was Lyndsey. And it's just something different happened, and we saw, we saw each other again and again and again, and then boom, married.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:01 I, I asked this question 'cause I was, I was having a conversation