She Cheated On Me and Thats Not All - Dr. Aria | E56

Steven Bartlett 0:00 You've made a great decision. And I say this as impartially as I possibly can, but this podcast is... it's really the reason why I started The Diary of a CEO. It's to hear these kinds of stories from these kinds of people, and I've got to be honest with you, I spent about a year asking this person to come on this podcast and have a conversation with me. Today's guest is Dr. Aria, and he's been on the podcast once before. He's a, a world-renowned high-performance coach and he works with some of the world's most accomplished athletes, actors, and everyone in between as they try and reach a mindset state that is conducive with success, with happiness, and with overall fulfillment. But he's not here to talk about that today. He's here to talk about something very, very different, something uncomfortable, something unimaginable. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody is listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music)

Steven Bartlett 1:10 Sometimes in life, you have these unbelievable, somewhat cruel coincidences that occur that it's hard to make sense of, and last time you came on this podcast, I would define it as, for me anyway, a pretty cruel coincidence because we had a conversation, um, to do with life generally and, and success and the mindset and psychology and all the things that you're an expert on.

Dr. Aria 1:36 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:36 And for whatever reason, that day-

Dr. Aria 1:39 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:39 ... I decided that I wanted to spend 30 minutes talking about marriage, cheating, love, and asking you these, um, very personal questions about monogamy, which I've never done before with any guest ever, and which I really had no place or reason to ask you more than anyone else, and it just feels to me, for what we're gonna talk about in part today, that that was a bit of a cruel coincidence, and you know, one of the questions I asked you was, um, "Do you believe in monogamy?" And then I asked you, "Can you love someone and cheat on them?" And when I listened to that podcast back, I now noticed, um, why you laughed.

Dr. Aria 2:19 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 2:19 Because it wasn't a... You laughed, yeah-

Dr. Aria 2:21 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 2:21 ... and it wasn't a normal laugh.

Dr. Aria 2:22 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 2:23 It was like a real belly laugh, right?

Dr. Aria 2:25 Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 2:25 Like a, a bit of a nervous belly laugh.

Dr. Aria 2:26 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 2:28 After we came off air on that podcast, you told me something.

Dr. Aria 2:32 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 2:33 And, uh, it- it even gives me goosebumps now thinking about what you said, and it gave the whole team in the room who overheard our conversation goosebumps as well, so... After our 30-minute conversation about marriage and monogamy and cheating and love, what did you say to me?

Dr. Aria 2:53 Told you a story.

Steven Bartlett 2:54 Yeah.

Dr. Aria 2:54 And that was, uh, about two weeks earlier. I'd been traveling back from London home, and I got out of the train station, and my wife picked me up, and we got into the car, and we had planned to go and have brunch at my favorite little spot. They do amazing Huevos Rancheros sauce. I was very excited.

Steven Bartlett 3:17 (laughs)

Dr. Aria 3:17 And she said, "Let's go straight home. I've made sandwiches." And she doesn't make great sandwiches, so I said, "No, no, I think the brunch is a better option." And she said, "No, there's something that I need to tell you." And I said, "Is it bad?" And she said, "Yes." And I said, "Is it about the marriage?" And she said, "Yes." And then we began to drive back, and I had this sinking feeling in me. And we're, we drove for about five minutes in silence, and then I went to put my hand on her lap, and she said, "Don't. Don't touch me 'cause she won't want you after I've told you what's happened," and that's whenever it drops. And I remember that 10-minute drive back home then felt like an eternity. I was just looking out the window. And we got home. We got into the house, into the kitchen, and I was standing by the kitchen table, hands rested on it, and I said, "What's happened?" And she said, "I've been having an affair with a man from work." And I remember just tears began to stream. I di- I didn't move, completely motionless. Tears began to stream, and then she said, "And that's not all." And she said, "I'm pregnant with his child." And in that moment, I felt like I lost a lot. You know, I'd lost my wife. I'd lost the life we'd created. I'd lost, uh, the dog, our home, her, my parents-in-law, her family, everything that I'd really held dear. If someone said, "What makes a meaningful life?" I would've described these things, and it felt like they'd just been snatched away, just came crumbling down like a house of cards. And then fast-forward two weeks, and Steve-

Steven Bartlett 5:12 Ugh, fucking hell.

Dr. Aria 5:14 ... decides to ask-

Steven Bartlett 5:15 (laughs) Punching your fist.

Dr. Aria 5:15 And I remember because the first thing-

Steven Bartlett 5:17 Punching my fists.

Dr. Aria 5:17 No, no, it was fascinating 'cause the first thing you asked was, "You're married, right?" And I did this high-pitched laugh, and I go... (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 5:25 (laughs)

Dr. Aria 5:26 "Yes." And then, and then the conversation flowed on, and, and it's themes that I'd really thought about. Can you love someone and cheat on them? Does monogamy exist? Is it natural? Are we set up to live a life where we're in one relationship with one person only? And so over the past 18 months, it's been a process and some of these themes have been very real to me.

Steven Bartlett 5:58 I just, as I reflect on that conversation and, and when I played it back...... um, after you'd told me. So we come off air.

Dr. Aria 6:05 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 6:05 We're stood next to the table and the microphones, and you, you explain to me what's happened.

Dr. Aria 6:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 6:09 I'm, uh, for the first time in my life s- completely speechless.

Dr. Aria 6:11 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 6:11 And, uh, the thing that blew me away m- even more so than the, what you'd said to me, was your ability to be so calm and rational and objective in the answers you gave.

Dr. Aria 6:22 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 6:22 And even when I listen back now, although there was that laugh, which was a bit of an indication-

Dr. Aria 6:27 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 6:27 ... um, you were able to speak about someone betraying you or being deceitful with a level of calmness and apparent, um, emotional, uh, sort of restraint-

Dr. Aria 6:41 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 6:41 ... that I j- I just admired so much from someone that was right in the middle of the emotional hurricane-

Dr. Aria 6:47 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 6:47 ... and had just been victim of that act. And, um, you said that, you know, about the topic of monogamy.

Dr. Aria 6:53 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 6:54 How did that change your opinion and, and, and also the subsequent 18 months of processing on the topic of monogamy?

Dr. Aria 7:01 Mm-hmm. So as a quick aside, I like that analogy, and we touched upon it briefly about the hurricane. And, and it's funny actually because a friend of mine showed me a book about a week ago, and it was different personality profiles depending on the day that you'd been born on. And when we looked mine up, there's a little meditation at the end, uh, a summary, and it said, "The stillest part of the hurricane is its center." And that essentially has been, uh, a philosophy that's guided my life, where sometimes there's a storm and it's horrendous and it's raging, but if you can cultivate that sense of stillness and calmness and clarity deep within you, no matter what life throws at you, you will be okay. Because the second part of whenever I was told that news and the, and the tears were, were streaming and I felt that sense of loss and overwhelming sadness, there was a remarkable moment where in that instant, and I can only describe it as a whisper, I heard a whisper within me as if it was resonating from my heart that all will be well. Four words, all will be well. All will be well. And I knew even then, I knew whenever, you know, this tumultuous emotion, I knew everything's going to be okay. I will get through this. I'm gonna have to walk through the desert, and I'm gonna have to endure horrific amount to an emotional level, but it's all going to be fine.

Steven Bartlett 8:37 How did you know that?

Dr. Aria 8:39 I think it's something that I've cultivated over, over 10, 15 years, and that's why I do what I do now, because I want to help other people to be able to reach that stage. And, and it began on a journey of, um, Buddhist exploration and understanding the nature of life. And I came to this realization that life involves suffering. There's no promise that it's going to be happy-go-lucky and really pleasant all the time. Really horrific things happen in life. And on one level, there's no way that we can ever rationally explain it away. Sometimes bad things happen, but it doesn't end there. It, it's a bit like that line that someone once sent to me, "Whenever you're suffering, don't ask God, 'Why am I suffering?' Ask God, 'Where are you taking me?'" And so I've, I've developed this ability to begin to view my life as though it's happening to someone else, as though the experience, the thoughts, the emotions are, are something that I can, I can almost take it back on and have perspective, and I can see it, and I can feel it, but I know that my thoughts, that isn't just who I am. My emotions isn't just who I am. That's a temporary experience. And, and throughout my life, no matter what has happened, even whenever it's been brutal, it's often shifted me in a new trajectory, and there's been a new meaningful life ahead of me.

Steven Bartlett 10:10 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 10:10 And I, and I knew even then she's going to be okay. She'll be okay. It's gonna be a tough road for her too, but she'll be okay. And it's gonna be a tough road for me too, but I will be okay.

Steven Bartlett 10:22 Anger.

Dr. Aria 10:23 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 10:24 So many people in that situation, whether rightly or wrongly, just because of the way that they are-

Dr. Aria 10:29 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 10:29 ... would have reacted with anger.

Dr. Aria 10:31 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 10:31 And for some reason, you were both calm in telling me, you're calm now, and thi- this re- remarkable thing which I, I think I, I struggled to understand a little bit is, one of your first concerns was her wellbeing-

Dr. Aria 10:47 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 10:48 ... versus your own.

Dr. Aria 10:49 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 10:50 Why?

Dr. Aria 10:53 Because I loved her, and I was in the practice of, of placing her emotional wellbeing and her happiness on the same level as mine, if not sometimes first and foremostly, but at least o- on an equal playing field. And, and I was just so in that habit, and that was the toughest thing to let go of. Th- the thing that I still struggle with today, and I, and I'm still... It's, it's the one part that I realized the other day that I still had a fear of upsetting her or of her not being okay. And so that's something which just, just really developed and, and was so ingrained. And it's interesting on, on the point of anger, if you'd said, like, your wife, partner for 10 years, married for five, has an affair and is pregnant with ano- another man's child, how will you react? I would have said anger. I would do... I'd be furious, but it wasn't there, at least not initially. It was this overwhelming sense of sadness. It was just that sense of loss of knowing that...... again, that she's potentially done something that she might regret for a long time, and I don't want anyone to go through that experience where they feel like they've fucked up hugely. Even if the, the future is positive in that moment, my sense is there will be regret, or at least shame. And so, it was a sadness because that was connected to the loss, the sense of loss, of losing things I held dear.

Steven Bartlett 12:30 Feels like you're living outside your body.

Dr. Aria 12:32 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 12:32 A little bit. I guess that's what self-awareness is, or at least emotional awareness is. 'Cause you're being able to see that situation, which is utterly horrific for anyone-

Dr. Aria 12:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 12:43 ... um, from, as you say, from like, a bird's eye view.

Dr. Aria 12:46 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 12:46 As if you've, like-

Dr. Aria 12:47 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 12:47 ... been looking down on it. And that's allowing you not to just feel your own emotions, but to feel empathy towards theirs.

Dr. Aria 12:54 Yeah. And I think, I think that's the path, in my eyes, that's the path to enlightenment. And I'm not saying that I am enlightened, but I think we're all on that path and we're all progressing through it. And for me, that's what awareness is. It's being able to experience internally your thoughts and your emotions, and externally what's happened as if it's happening to someone else.

Steven Bartlett 13:15 You're, like, holding them out in front of you and analyzing them, right?

Dr. Aria 13:18 Right. Right.

Steven Bartlett 13:18 So like, but if you're not holding them out in front of you and it's happening within you, then you are just almost like, a passenger on a roller coaster.

Dr. Aria 13:24 Totally.

Steven Bartlett 13:25 Whereas holding them out in front of you-

Dr. Aria 13:27 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 13:27 ... kind of makes you the, the conductor or the roller coaster, or at least, uh, able to, yeah, understand. And if you can understand, then you can address and then you can overcome.

Dr. Aria 13:36 Yeah. Totally, I love it. Whenever you're holding it really close to you, you're fused with it. Anything that happens instantly will cr- will provoke a reaction, whether or not it's emotional or, or behavioral. But when you hold it in front of you, there's a bit more space. Now, you still experience it. I'm not gonna lie to you (laughs) , it was a brutal couple of months.

Steven Bartlett 13:54 Hmm.

Dr. Aria 13:54 I cried every day, uh, for maybe three months for hours. Hours, I would, I would, I would walk and I'd process what happened. And if you want, we can talk about that at some point, um, about my process of moving through it.

Steven Bartlett 14:08 Hmm.

Dr. Aria 14:08 But yes, it was, I'm not going to say it wasn't, um, emotionally painful, but I wasn't defined by that pain.

Steven Bartlett 14:17 Hmm.

Dr. Aria 14:17 That was just a part that I was

Dr. Aria 14:19 experiencing.

Steven Bartlett 14:19 Let's talk about that.

Dr. Aria 14:20 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 14:20 So, a lot of people experience grief in many forms, and this somewhat feels like the c- the central emotion. You described it as a loss. It feels like a form of grief.

Dr. Aria 14:28 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 14:28 What was your process for moving from, you know, finding out that it had happened to, to where you are today, where you're, you know, you've, quote-unquote, "processed" it, I imagine, as much as you might have been able to at this stage?

Dr. Aria 14:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 14:44 Some-

Dr. Aria 14:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 14:45 ... yeah. What was your process?

Dr. Aria 14:48 The way I think people often, um, catch themself in a, in a counterve- productive cycle is whenever they try and avoid experiencing what they're experiencing. They try and shun it, lock it away, put it in a box-

Steven Bartlett 15:03 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 15:03 ... disconnect from it, deny it, and they just focus on the future and, "Where I am going," and they might try and rationalize it. Uh, "This happened because of X or because of Y," and then they try and forge ahead. And I think it comes back to bite them at some point. The simplest truth is that we can only ever experience one moment at a time, and I remind myself of that. I don't need to think about right now the financial separation, the divorce, what it means a- about friends or family, or, or will I meet someone again, or how long will it be, or what will my life look like, or where am I going to live? So many different factors that could be overwhelming. I just decided to deal with one moment at a time. All I need to do is deal with this one moment. And what is this one moment bringing me? And accepting and welcoming, it sounds strange, but welcoming whatever comes up. And so whatever emotion came up, I didn't try and push it away, or shunt it, or deny it, or negate it. I let it, I let it sit. And that's why I cried so much.

Steven Bartlett 16:08 (laughs) Hmm.

Dr. Aria 16:08 (laughs) Because there was so much sadness.

Steven Bartlett 16:10 Did you write down the emotions you were experiencing?

Dr. Aria 16:14 So, I didn't write down the emotions, but what I did in the next step is, so the first step was awareness and accepting whatever emotions I felt. And I, and I l- and seeing that they come and then they go. You know, there'd, there'd be moments where I'd be laughing with my brother, and then crying a minute later, and then talking about something else. The second step was reminding myself of reality. Because I was so ingrained in, in an internal model of what life looked like. "I have a strong, stable marriage in which my partner subconsciously, uh, you know, implicitly, I believe, is faithful. We're meant to be together. We're going to be together for the next 50, 60 years until one of us dies. Uh, we're going to have children together." That was my internal model. And I had to rip it apart. I had to take it down. I had to dismantle it, and I had to remind myself of the reality of the situation. I had to, I had to accept it. I had to accept, "It's over. It's not going to change. There's no going back. The final nail is in the coffin, and you need to take that on board." And I'd also write any s- I would write down reminders of, of what had happened, and I also wrote down any insights I had about the situation that I could remind myself of, and I wrote down how I wanted to handle this process. Um, I can actually read a few out if you want.

Steven Bartlett 17:57 Please. Please.

Dr. Aria 17:58 I've got, um... So I, I, I literally would just write them down on my phone. Um, and so...... afterwards, I, I began to split them up into different sections.

Steven Bartlett 18:09 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 18:10 This- but this one was for the process. Hold yourself to the highest standard. Choose actions that you can be proud of. How you get through this process is more important than how quickly you get through this process. 'Cause for me, what's important that I still lived with personal integrity, that I didn't ... that I wasn't warped or changed or, um, consumed with vengeance or acted in ways that was out of spite or out of emotion. I wanted to be able to look back on this in 12 months, 18 months time-

Steven Bartlett 18:48 Oh.

Dr. Aria 18:48 ... and still feel good about it, have a clear conscience, still able to put my head down and feel as though I handled that to the best of my ability. With God, you can get through this. You can become stronger, wiser, more caring, more compassionate, and more loving. And that's another thing that actually the deepest moments of s- suffering can actually be opportunities for growth. Even if you don't want it, there's something there that, that you can learn and c- can grow from. You don't need anything from her anymore. Um, and that ... and then different reminders. You have nothing to feel bad about. You aren't responsible. You have nothing to feel guilty about. Nothing. Because there were moments where y- my mind would almost begin to, in a way, play a trick on me and begin to try and create reasons, um, to feel bad or to try and create shame. And at those times, while I would accept what came up, I decided not to pursue that line of thinking-

Steven Bartlett 19:49 Wow.

Dr. Aria 19:49 ... because that didn't fit. Whenever I was calm and clear, this came to me. And so I'd write down whatever came to me whenever I was in a place of wisdom.

Steven Bartlett 19:59 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 20:00 Then when their emotion hit-

Steven Bartlett 20:02 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 20:02 ... and I'm not seeing clearly and I've got on a clouded lens, this little baby became (laughs) my best friend-

Steven Bartlett 20:08 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Aria 20:08 ... 'cause I'd go back to it. And I'd remind myself, and then it would, it would reshift my mental paradigm.

Steven Bartlett 20:14 I have this, um ... Before, please do keep your phone open because I want to hear the rest of this.

Dr. Aria 20:18 Oh, okay.

Steven Bartlett 20:19 But I have this, um, analogy I make-

Dr. Aria 20:21 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 20:21 ... in moments where I experience a very similar thing that I'm gonna say one example.

Dr. Aria 20:25 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 20:25 As f- it's the closest I can come to r- r- uh, resonating with what your experience is. I was dating this girl.

Dr. Aria 20:32 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 20:32 And I broke up with her, and three days later, I find out that she's had sex with someone else.

Dr. Aria 20:39 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 20:39 Right? And I can only d- the way that I described it was I'm flying on this plane, and I'm the pilot. (laughs) And then suddenly, when I fi- when I, when I look down and, and hear the news that she's just slept with someone, somebody else-

Dr. Aria 20:55 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 20:55 ... it was like terrorists stormed the cockpit.

Dr. Aria 20:58 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 20:58 And they chucked the, the, the fucking rational pilot out.

Dr. Aria 21:02 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 21:02 And they were threatening to crash the whole fucking thing, right? (laughs)

Dr. Aria 21:04 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 21:05 And my whole objective as the pilot-

Dr. Aria 21:07 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:07 ... is to get back into the cockpit before they crash this plane into the side of a mountain because if they crash the plane, I'm fucked.

Dr. Aria 21:12 Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:12 And so, what I wanted to do was lose my integrity.

Dr. Aria 21:16 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:16 I wanted to crash the plane. I wanted to get her back, take revenge-

Dr. Aria 21:20 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 21:20 ... tell her she's a this, this, and a this, and a this, and a this.

Dr. Aria 21:23 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:23 And it was this ch- 'cause I've got to a place of a- where I'm able to hold situations out in front of me a little bit more-

Dr. Aria 21:27 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:28 ... than I ever was, you know, in the past. I was at war with myself.

Dr. Aria 21:31 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:32 It was the terrorists on one end telling me to crash the plane and the pilot saying-

Dr. Aria 21:35 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 21:35 ... "You've been here before. You know you just need to keep the plane in the air until you're-"

Dr. Aria 21:39 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:40 And, and I ... And I'm, so I'm going for a run. I'm like, "Steve, go to the gym."

Dr. Aria 21:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:43 "Go for a run."

Dr. Aria 21:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:44 "Clear your head." I'm at the gym. The terrorists, the, the, you know-

Dr. Aria 21:46 (laughs) The terrorists.

Steven Bartlett 21:46 ... and I'm like, "I'm gonna finish. I'm gonna finish. Get back here." And then I come back and back.

Dr. Aria 21:51 Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:51 And the crazy conclusion to all of this was my friend called me-

Dr. Aria 21:55 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 21:55 ... and said a few things to me-

Dr. Aria 21:56 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 21:57 ... about, um, why she did what she did.

Dr. Aria 22:00 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 22:01 My friend said to me, "Remember, Steve, you rejected her."

Dr. Aria 22:04 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 22:05 "She really, really, really likes you."

Dr. Aria 22:06 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 22:07 "And she's done this as a way to make herself feel better for the rejection that you gave her." And it sounds like such a pathetic thing to say, but what it made me realize in that moment was much of the reason why the terrorists had stormed the cockpit was my ego was bruised. And the thing that coached those terrorists out the cockpit was my friend massaging my ego again. And, and letting me know that some of those stories we sometimes tell ourselves when we get rejected about why we got rejected-

Dr. Aria 22:35 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 22:35 ... weren't true.

Dr. Aria 22:36 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 22:37 It's not because you're not enough.

Dr. Aria 22:38 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 22:39 It's, it's in fact because of something you've done. And that was the reason why I managed to take control of the cockpit. I did nothing.

Dr. Aria 22:45 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 22:45 I didn't punish her in any way, didn't even mention her.

Dr. Aria 22:48 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 22:48 And it was ... And so, yeah. Um, but please.

Dr. Aria 22:50 Two, two things come to me there. Uh, one is this, uh, emotion of anger. So fascinatingly, 95% of the emotion for me was sadness.

Steven Bartlett 23:01 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 23:02 5% was anger. And the anger struck early on. It was the first night. And I remember, uh, my brother had come over and wa- and was staying with me. And I woke up in the middle of the night, the night of that day that she told me, and it was like my body was burning. I haven't experienced anger like that before. It was, it was almost like I was aflame. I was, uh, just infused with rage. And I began ... And I really feel for my brother having to witness this, but I was just moving up and down, shouting as loudly as I could, "My wife, my house. My wife, my house." And for five minutes, it was like a supernova. It just was just seething. And then it burnt out. And I cried, and I fell asleep, and, and the next day ... And then the anger didn't really come much. It would come now and again. But what I realized was the anger was intimately attached to my ego.

Steven Bartlett 24:09 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 24:09 The anger came whenever I was attached to my ego. And I'm very fortunate that I'm able to detach from my ego the majority of the time. But when I didn't-That's when it hurt, because it came about my wife-

Steven Bartlett 24:21 Hmm.

Dr. Aria 24:22 ... as if I own her, as if there's ownership, as if it's a part of me.

Steven Bartlett 24:26 Hmm.

Dr. Aria 24:27 I don't own her. She's free.

Steven Bartlett 24:29 Yeah.

Dr. Aria 24:31 My house, I didn't even own the house. The mortgage company did. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 24:35 Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Dr. Aria 24:35 You know? But as soon as we link it to ourselves and make it about us-

Steven Bartlett 24:39 Yeah. Ugh.

Dr. Aria 24:39 ... then, it, it's, it's a place of vulnerability, because you getting inflicted is like getting stabbed in the heart.

Steven Bartlett 24:46 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 24:46 You feel that. But it's an illusion, because we are not our ego. You know, we can see our ego and have a relationship to our ego, but once we're fused with it, we're in trouble. And the other part of it is that ... Because I don't want to come across like a saint, like I didn't have dark thoughts or, you know, I wasn't angry and I just handled it with grace the entire time. But I operate from a principle that the mind has a mind of its own. And I think we talked about it last time. But essentially, your mind will populate your head with thoughts automatically. You're not asking for them. It'll just come up with judges, evaluations, assessments, predictions about the future, past memories, imagined scenarios. You know, if I said, "Okay, Steve, don't think about anything right now, just for 10 seconds, have a complete blank mind, and I'm going to say a word, but don't think about anything." Okay? So we'll just do it now. Don't think about a thing.

Steven Bartlett 25:50 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 25:52 Birthday.

Steven Bartlett 25:54 Got cake.

Dr. Aria 25:55 Right. So, even though you were attempting not to think about anything, your mind came up with it automatically.

Steven Bartlett 25:59 Hmm.

Dr. Aria 26:00 And from my perspective, we are not our thoughts. We have thoughts, our mind comes up with thoughts, but that's not me. I am the observer of the thought.

Steven Bartlett 26:12 Hmm.

Dr. Aria 26:12 Now, why is that important? 'Cause my mind (laughs) would come up with really brutal thoughts.

Steven Bartlett 26:17 What thoughts?

Dr. Aria 26:18 Like torturing the guy.

Steven Bartlett 26:20 Really?

Dr. Aria 26:20 Yeah. Getting in a car, finding him, putting him in the back of the van-

Steven Bartlett 26:25 (laughs)

Dr. Aria 26:25 ... and doing this elaborate, (laughs) elaborate of, of, of what I would do to him.

Steven Bartlett 26:29 Hmm.

Dr. Aria 26:29 Absolutely, because my mind was thinking about, about seeking vengeance.

Steven Bartlett 26:35 Justice.

Dr. Aria 26:35 Justice. (laughs) Justice. And it was like a Hollywood movie. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 26:40 Yeah. (laughs) Yeah. Hmm.

Dr. Aria 26:40 And somehow, no one found out-

Steven Bartlett 26:41 (laughs)

Dr. Aria 26:42 ... and I went back along with my day. You know? And so, yes, you can have those ... Or whenever I was in deep pain, the thought of ending my life popped into my head.

Steven Bartlett 26:55 Hmm.

Dr. Aria 26:56 I didn't have any intent. I wasn't making any plans. I didn't want to kill myself. But my mind wanted a way out of the pain.

Steven Bartlett 27:04 Hmm.

Dr. Aria 27:06 It was suffering, and it wanted an end to it. And what is one option? Killing yourself. And so, when I've got a, a different relationship though with these thoughts, when I think about torturing someone, or I thi- or when my mind comes up with a thought of torturing someone-

Steven Bartlett 27:23 Hmm.

Dr. Aria 27:23 ... or my mind comes up with a thought of taking my life, there's no judgment. I don't think, "Oh, that means I must want to do it," or, "That means that I will do it." Or, "That means I'm a bad person." Or, "That means that I'm evil."

Steven Bartlett 27:45 Hmm.

Dr. Aria 27:46 It just means my mind ... I think what is my mind trying to do? It's, it's trying to solve a solution, and it's probably struggling to cope, and it's trying to find a way to make me feel better.

Steven Bartlett 27:56 Hmm. Neo, on this podcast, who, who you ... came on this podcast, talked about how the mind is actually ... You know, people think we're in the search of pleasure, but the mind is programmed to avo- avoid discomfort.

Dr. Aria 28:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 28:05 So we're constantly in- trying to seek, you know, avoid it, and that's why we procrastinate, because we've got a big project which is-

Dr. Aria 28:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 28:11 ... we may not feel competent to complete or, you know, we're a bit ... There's a feeling of discomfort around it-

Dr. Aria 28:14 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 28:14 ... so we go and wash the dishes or do the Hoovering.

Dr. Aria 28:16 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 28:17 Um, on the, on the p- you mentioned wanting to torture this man. (laughs)

Dr. Aria 28:22 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 28:22 I know, right? So like, a moment of the mind-

Dr. Aria 28:24 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 28:24 ... having the-

Dr. Aria 28:24 Well, my mind did, Steve.

Steven Bartlett 28:26 Your mind did. Right.

Dr. Aria 28:26 Let's clarify. Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 28:26 You didn't want to. Your mind wanted to. (laughs)

Dr. Aria 28:28 Hey, I'm a peace-loving kind of guy. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 28:31 (laughs)

Dr. Aria 28:31 I just ...

Steven Bartlett 28:31 But, uh, I wanted to know, how do you feel about him?

Dr. Aria 28:34 Hmm. So it's really interesting. I, um ... The stage, the, the process went: awareness and acceptance, uh, how I wanted to handle the process, and then, at some point, I realized I needed to find forgiveness. I'm quite a simple person, and I don't, I don't like having a lot of, uh, items or objects or physical possessions, and I don't like having a lot of emotional baggage, either. I want to travel light. You know, I wanna travel so lightly, I could pass through the eye of a needle, so to speak. And the weight of ... anger or resentment or the feelings of betrayal were weighing me down. And I wanted to forgive her and I wanted to forgive him. And honestly, you could view it as ultimately selfish, because it's not going to impact their life, but it's going to make mine a lot easier. And during lockdown, I was in California, and I was lucky because in Santa Barbara, where I was staying, the mayor didn't close the beaches, because there's a lot of families there, and he said, "As long as you, uh, socially distance, it's fine." And I'd run along the beach, and I had this process where I would say out loud ... I would imagine her, and I would say, "I forgive you. I'm sending you my love, and I wish you all the best for the future." And I processed so much by that, at that point, because I'd been able to understand and see her situation. And in my mind, I ha- I have an idea of-... how it was created, and why it unfolded. And so there was compassion there and I was able to reach that really rel- relatively quickly. That, that was easy. The hard part (laughs) was with him, because I didn't know him. I didn't know his personality, his background, who he was. He could be a great friend and an excellent son. Or, uh, potentially a very, uh, loving partner. But all I knew about him was that he was prepared to take certain actions. And so, whenever I tried it with him and I'd say, "I forgive you," (laughs) it was like there was a knot and a wince and I'd be like, "Hm."

Steven Bartlett 31:15 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 31:16 And I would say, "And I'm sending you my love." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 31:19 (laughs)

Dr. Aria 31:21 And I'm like, "Ooh."

Steven Bartlett 31:21 Ooh.

Dr. Aria 31:23 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 31:23 And I wish you all the best-

Dr. Aria 31:25 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 31:26 ... for the future. (laughs) I mean, you're still imagining pulling up in that van and jumping out-

Dr. Aria 31:30 (laughs) .

Steven Bartlett 31:30 ... and blindfolding him and dragging him in. Sticking something up his butt and... (laughs)

Dr. Aria 31:36 (laughs) .

Steven Bartlett 31:36 How do you like me now? (laughs) .

Dr. Aria 31:38 Yeah. (laughs) . Uh, and so, but I would just notice it. I don't... Do you know there's tension there? And, and actually, I will say this was a year after I'd heard the news, so I didn't try and do this initially. I think it would've been, uh, premature to have attempted this whenever I wasn't in a space where I had a lot more clarity and, and groundedness and, and, and process the emotion. The emotion wasn't being clouded at this point. Now it was, what am I holding onto? And for a matter of weeks, five, six weeks, I was running two, three times a week, and I would just try that, try that process. And then, one day it was, it was remarkable. I was running along and I said, "I forgive you." And there was nothing. And then I said, "And I'm sending you my love." And I felt easy. And I said, "And I wish you all the best for the future." And I could tell that I meant it for them, for their baby, uh, you know, for them together as a family. And I felt at peace. And it's a bit like that saying, "My yoke is easy, my burden's light." Now, genuinely it sounds strange, but I don't really feel anything for them. It's almost as if, you know, if you came to me and said, um, "I've got a friend called Mike, and he's going through a really difficult time. He was involved in a really complicated emotional relationship. Um, would you mind sending up positive thoughts to him and saying a prayer for him?" I'd say, "Sure." Like, he hasn't ever done anything to me, I don't have any connection with him, no problem. It's almost that sort of relationship now where they're just other people on their journey. And I had that shared history with, with my wife, which I look upon fondly, particularly the first eight years. We had a wonderful marriage for a long time. But there's no emotional tinge, there's n-

Steven Bartlett 33:41 It's like an emotional umbilical cord. I'm always imagining it as like-

Dr. Aria 33:43 It's a letting go.

Steven Bartlett 33:44 Yeah.

Dr. Aria 33:45 It's a letting go. And so that was, that was a part that for me, because I think there comes a time where you have to say, "Okay, I process it. I've processed it. How long do I want to hold onto it for now?" And that's becomes my own choice. Do I want to carry this and let it define me? Or do I want to finally let it go and see it float down the river?

Steven Bartlett 34:11 And I think, you know, even... You're someone that has a remarkable a- ability to practice like self-awareness and, you know, you have that sort of like emotional awareness as well. And it's good to hear, I think for everybody listening to this, that even your process to, from finding it out to, you know, being emotionally unattached to the matter to the point that you can forgive both of them-

Dr. Aria 34:33 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 34:34 ... wasn't line- linear at all.

Dr. Aria 34:36 No.

Steven Bartlett 34:36 It was up, it was down, it was up, it was down, and it was long.

Dr. Aria 34:39 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:39 And I think people sometimes, um, think that their experience of rejection or deceit or, you know, um, any of these things is uniquely bad because their process to recovery, per se, isn't linear.

Dr. Aria 34:56 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:56 And it's long. And it feels like the more I've talked about this topic and the more people I've met and, you know, from hearing your experiences, that, in fact, is the only way out. And I actually think realizing that that's the only way out will make your process out of that deceit or betrayal feel normal-

Dr. Aria 35:14 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 35:14 ... and natural and okay.

Dr. Aria 35:16 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 35:16 And therefore acceptable. And, and I think that's a, a really important point that you've made thr- through the story you've told.

Dr. Aria 35:23 Absolutely. And each person's journey will be unique. And there will be peaks and troughs and it'll wax and wane. And I'm very aware that it's possible that my journey happened over a relatively short period of time because of my history and my background. As a psychologist, as a high performance expert, this is the area that I deal with, is what, developing emotional resilience. It's how do you help people to cope with high stakes environments when they've lost a sense of balance in their life, when they're struggling in their relationships, whenever they experience something in life which throws them, how do you get back up? This is what I've been trained to do for 15 years.

Steven Bartlett 36:08 Isn't it weird that life sent you this challenge-

Dr. Aria 36:11 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 36:11 ... when you think about your experience? Isn't it... There must be part of you that... 'Cause I think I would.

Dr. Aria 36:16 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 36:16 I would think to myself, "Life is testing me-

Dr. Aria 36:20 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 36:20 ... to see if I can deal with the worst-

Dr. Aria 36:22 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 36:22 ... and still maintain the values and principles that I espouse." Like...

Dr. Aria 36:26 Yeah. It, it sounds... This will sound really odd, uh, but I almost...Well, uh, at times I felt, in a way, I'm so lucky because I'm so lucky that I am where I am when this happened. If this had happened 10 years ago, I would've been in a vastly different space.

Steven Bartlett 36:45 Why?

Dr. Aria 36:46 Because I struggled 10 years to cope with what life gave me on an emotional level, and I would react out of the emotion. So, I'd experience it and then I would just (snaps fingers) react. And essentially, that's when we make terrible decisions.

Steven Bartlett 37:03 How you crash the plane.

Dr. Aria 37:04 How we crash the plane. If you look at NASA, um, astronauts, they prepare for, uh, the sequence of events leading up to launch and they run through that over hundred times, from putting on the kit to traveling down, uh, to the launch space, to what could go wrong, and they re- rehearse it and they run it through. And it's a way of being able to stay calm whenever there is uncertainty or turbulence or danger or threat. Because that's whenever, that's the person you really want to be whenever there's an emergency, like we talked about in the podcast, you want to be the person that still has an air, a pocket, a space of clarity that isn't affected. So that even though you're experiencing all these emotions on a very physical level, deep down you're still grounded. You can take it. And so from where I was, I did feel as though I'm fortunate that life has thrown at me something that, in my mind, was one of the worst things that I could experience. There's lots of worse things without a shadow of a doubt, but it was a big one. Um, and find a way to move through it. And incredibly, it's informed even, even my work.

Steven Bartlett 38:26 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 38:26 Because in the last year, again, whether it's coincidence or not, I don't know, the number of clients I've been working with on relationship issues has gone up exponentially. And it's issues centered on a loss of connection, a loss of intimacy, betrayal, confusion. How do you, how do you say true to who you are in a relationship with someone else where you feel like there's a shift? Or you wake up one day and you're in a space where you don't know how you got there, where you become like best friends living together rather than the passionate lovers you were 10 years ago.

Steven Bartlett 39:04 You talked there a second about the calm that, uh, astronauts are trained to develop-

Dr. Aria 39:09 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:09 ... and how crucial that is to making good decisions. I, I, I saw this quote the other day and it said, "When emotions go, go up, intellect comes down."

Dr. Aria 39:16 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:16 And, um, I was thinking about, just then as you said that, I was thinking, "What are the factors that make somebody not calm?" And then I thought, and I kind of answered it myself. I thought-

Dr. Aria 39:25 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:25 ... okay, so it's, we talked about the ego playing a big role. And so I guess my conclusion there is the people who will struggle to maintain their calm in situations like that-

Dr. Aria 39:34 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 39:34 ... that are so personally associated, are those with the lowest self-esteem and the most fragile ego.

Dr. Aria 39:40 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 39:40 And it feels like the work that you've described that you've done over the last 10 years is really like building your self-esteem-

Dr. Aria 39:46 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 39:46 ... and really, in some respects, a separation from ego.

Dr. Aria 39:49 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 39:50 Um, yeah.

Dr. Aria 39:50 You, you've nailed it. One, we know on a neural level, so we know from neuroimaging studies that when we experience emotion, the prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain responsible for judgment, decision-making, impulse control, planning, goes offline. It shuts down.

Steven Bartlett 40:10 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 40:11 So we don't have access to that creativity, the wisdom that we have usually. And again, absolutely, I think the journey, for me, the journey of, of life involves developing a robust sense of self, a sense of self that is unshakable, that is immovable, that still experiences life and the whole gamut of emotions and, and the beauty and loveliness of life, and also the darkness and the destruction of life, but isn't impacted on an essential level by it. And I think that's the journey and that's the journey that I work on with clients, no matter what the outwardly symptoms are. It could be weight gain.

Steven Bartlett 40:59 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 40:59 It could be relationship dysfunction. It could be struggling to experience that sense of contentment or fulfillment in life, even though I have everything that life says I should have. It could be feeling like I'm, I'm lacking or I'm just not doing enough or I'm not being enough. But it all comes back to that stronger sense of self.

Steven Bartlett 41:19 And this, um, you know, horrific experience, what has it done to your opinion of monogamy?

Dr. Aria 41:28 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 41:28 Because I'm sure, I'm guessing from what you've said, the way that you planned your life ahead, you thought when you, you know, when you went, walked down the aisle and you said those words, "Till death do us part."

Dr. Aria 41:38 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:38 You then planned the next 60 years of your life and how your life was gonna pan out. And when you said those words at the end of the, at the altar, you were totally convinced-

Dr. Aria 41:48 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:49 ... totally convinced that this person-

Dr. Aria 41:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:51 ... was the, the person, your soulmate. Um, how do you feel about all of those concepts now, like soulmate and monogamy and till death do us part?

Dr. Aria 42:01 The experience led me to a position where I began to question my deepest assumptions about monogamy, about marriage, about lifelong relationships. And in the same way, I began to take a step back and reflect and contemplate, I became very aware that there is a social script for relationships. And it generally goes, the conventional model is boy meets girl, it's not even boy meets boy or girl meets girl. There's a first date, a first kiss, uh, a period of courting.At some point, um, there will be sex, meeting the parents, hopefully not at the same time (laughs) naturally-

Steven Bartlett 42:43 (laughs) Actually, fuck. (laughs)

Dr. Aria 42:45 ... relationship becomes, uh, exclusive, and then engagement, marriage, children, till death do us part. And I realize that that is a social construction. It's a conventional model based on assumptions that monogamy is natural, that marriage is a human universal, and that any structure other than the nuclear one is aberrant.

Steven Bartlett 43:14 Hmm.

Dr. Aria 43:16 And so then I began to think, okay, well what are the different, what are the different elements? So on the one hand, we can take, and w- we touched upon it briefly, uh, a evolutionary perspective. And we are apes. It's not just that we've descended from apes, we are apes. We're one of the five Homo sapiens are one of the five surviving species of great apes along with orangutans, bonobos, gorillas, and, and chimpanzees. And yet, at some point, we separated from that psychologically. And actually, the fine print that distinguishes humans from other great apes has been described by primatologists as wholly inadequate. It's, it, it's a fabrication. And at some stage, we began to see ourselves as special and unique and above nature and exempt from our primal history, 'cause we descended from hyper-sexual ancestors. So if the Homo lineage has been around for 2 million years, modern humans have been around for 200,000 years, and about 10,000 years ago, there, there was a shift in going from hunter-gatherers to settled communities beca- because of the advent of agriculture. Now, up until 10,000 years ago, the data now suggests that we actually lived by fiercely egalitarian principles. Everything was shared, food, shelter, water, childcare, and even sexual partners. Casual sexuality was the norm for our prehistoric ancestors. For 95% of the collective experience of our lineage, that is what we experienced. And it wasn't, it wasn't based on meaningless random relationships. They were relationships that reinforced, uh, a social pattern that, that we needed to survive. It minimized our risk and it reinforced social ties. But then with the advent of agriculture, we began to settle. We had then, we had land, we had, uh, domesticated animals, and for the first time, private por- property came into play. And suddenly, there, there was a change, and there was even a change in the status of women. Because when we look at it, the human female up until that point was on, was on an equal playing field. They were as responsible for the hunting and the cooking and making decisions about where they were going to settle. And then it changed, and the female became the property of the man, something that he had to maintain and keep. And actually, the reason that property came into play is because we weren't moving, so it did matter what happened to our resources. We were accumulating. And biological paternity, for the first time, became crucial. And so on a, on a natural, evolutionary level, monogamy didn't exist. We didn't live in long-term, monogamous relationships. Then we bring in marriage. And if we fast-forward about five-and-a-half thousand years, in about 2,350 BC in, in Mesopotamia, we had the first marriage between, the union between a man and a woman. And over the next few hundred years, it spread. The ancient Romans, Greeks, Hebrews, they began to adopt this widespread practice. But marriage had a diff- had a very different meaning across the ages. In the, um, 5th century with Anglo-Saxons, it was about securing trade ties. It was a diplomatic tool. In the 11th century, marriage was about financial, economic, and political advantage. Uh, well, and as early as the 12th, religion be- became involved. And, and Roman Catholicism, uh, tied it to sacrament and into being a sacred experience related to experiencing God. Then about 500 years ago, Thomas Cranmer came up with the modern day marital vows that we read out today, and he was architecture of, uh, English Pro- Protestantism. And then up until 1858, divorce was rare. Marriage was something which was lifelong and it wasn't really questioned. But then it became a legal process that you could apply to do. And it was still, still relatively uncommon 'cause it, uh, it was expensive and a woman had to prove aggravated adultery, bestiality, sodomy, cruelty. And then the divorce case really opened up in 1969 with the Divorce Reform Act and marital breakdown could be, could then be cited. So whenever we begin to take a different lens and w- and we see the journey that it's taken and then we ask, "Well, where are we today?"... since 1975, there's been a drop in marriages by about 30%. More people are now opting to cohabit than they are to get married. Divorce statistics in England and Wales are at 42%. You could arguably say that the system is collapsing, that it is beginning to crumble. And then I would even take a cultural lens-

Steven Bartlett 49:05 Yeah.

Dr. Aria 49:05 ... and if I'm talking too much, (laughs) just-

Steven Bartlett 49:07 No, uh, fascinating.

Dr. Aria 49:08 ... jump in there.

Steven Bartlett 49:08 Super fascinating.

Dr. Aria 49:09 So culturally, um, so the Spanish word esposas means wife and handcuffs. We joke about the wife being the ball and chain.

Steven Bartlett 49:22 Hmm.

Dr. Aria 49:24 Uh, a friend got married, uh, got married, got engaged last week and the talk amongst the boys was, "This is the beginning of the end of your sex life."

Steven Bartlett 49:32 Yeah.

Dr. Aria 49:34 But women don't fare any better. You know, 43% of American women report sexual dysfunction, Viagra sales are increasing every year, they're, they're just record highs year upon year.

Steven Bartlett 49:46 Porn is through the fucking roof.

Dr. Aria 49:47 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 49:49 (laughs) Not that I would know.

Dr. Aria 49:50 (laughs) Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:51 A friend told me.

Dr. Aria 49:52 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 49:54 (laughs)

Dr. Aria 49:54 Um, the porn industry takes in about 57 to $100 billion worldwide. A US report showed that Americans spend more at strip clubs than they do at Broadway, Off-Broadway, nonprofit and regional theaters, the ballet, jazz, and the opera, collectively. We look at the Church and there have been hundreds of Roman Catholic priests admitting to thousands of sex crimes. In 2008, they paid out $436 million to victims of sexual abuse, a fifth were under the age of five. And these aren't, that's not to mention the forgotten victims.

Steven Bartlett 50:39 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 50:39 And we have to ask ourself, one, how did we get here? Two, how was that story constructed? And three, is marriage giving us what we want and is it realistic and is it feasible?

Steven Bartlett 50:55 So number three?

Dr. Aria 50:56 Where am I with that?

Steven Bartlett 50:57 Yeah.

Dr. Aria 50:58 Yeah. I'm still touring, I'll be totally honest with you. I can ... Say it. (laughs) I can imagine, okay, so I can imagine on, on the one hand, I can imagine being in a relationship with, with a woman and, and being with that one woman for the rest of my life. I can also imagine (laughs) being with someone in a relationship and having more than one sexual partner.

Steven Bartlett 51:28 But? (laughs)

Dr. Aria 51:29 But if, if it was flipped around and someone asked me, "Would you want your partners to be with other men-"

Steven Bartlett 51:36 Yeah.

Dr. Aria 51:36 ... I'd say, "Hell no."

Steven Bartlett 51:37 Of course.

Dr. Aria 51:38 Like, it just seems-

Steven Bartlett 51:39 Yeah.

Dr. Aria 51:39 ... it, that is not something, 'cause I'm so strongly programmed against that, even though that's potentially the biological heritage, I can't imagine being with someone who's with oth- with other people. I wouldn't want to be in that situation. And I'm aware of the acute hypocrisy contained-

Steven Bartlett 51:56 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 51:56 ... within it.

Steven Bartlett 51:57 Yeah. I think everyone feels the same way to some degree. I think people that tell you otherwise are probably talking shit-

Dr. Aria 52:02 I get them.

Steven Bartlett 52:02 ... because they're playing defense against not wanting to happen to them to some degree, right? But-

Dr. Aria 52:06 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:07 ... um, uh, it's a, an i- I think it's an ideal situation for yourself, but not for the person you're wi- with from your perspective. I read this book a long time ago called The Mystery Method.

Dr. Aria 52:16 Uh-huh.

Steven Bartlett 52:16 Um, by one of ... the world's number one pickup artist, and I don't know if this is true, but he, what he was saying was men are programmed in a way that seeks, um, to women to be faithful for them because the risk, the evolutionary risk was if I impregnate you as my wife, um ... Oh, no, so if I, if I'm committed to you as my wife and then you are, you cheat on me and get pregnant with someone else's child, I will then spend my resources, my energy, my time raising someone else's-

Dr. Aria 52:48 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 52:48 ... um, child, and then my genetics won't pass on-

Dr. Aria 52:52 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 52:52 ... that person's will, and e- essentially, if you think about it from an evolutionary perspective, I then wouldn't have existed if I didn't have that concern about making sure my sperm was the one that reached the egg.

Dr. Aria 53:05 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 53:05 I, so y- you think about it from an evolutionary perspective, you wouldn't exist if your ancestors hadn't done a brilliant job of making sure their sperm hit the egg.

Dr. Aria 53:16 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 53:16 And one of the ways of doing that was making sure it wasn't another guy's sperm hitting the egg.

Dr. Aria 53:20 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 53:21 By being territorial, by being whatever. And on the other side, from the woman's perspective, the book talks about how, you know, if a woman got eight months pregnant, um, tens of thousands of years ago, she can no longer hunt and gather for herself.

Dr. Aria 53:35 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 53:36 So really she has to find a partner that isn't going to abscond, that isn't going to bounce, especially once they've had sex. And so the book kind of talks about some of the, the reasons why, you know, in society, we typically think women are more in search of a relationship and are trying to-

Dr. Aria 53:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 53:51 ... you know, get a guy more than men are, typically, um, is because from an evolutionary perspective, they would have died-

Dr. Aria 53:58 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 53:59 ... on the savanna in Africa or whatever if, if the guy had sex with them, impregnated them at a time when we didn't have birth control, got them eight months pregnant, and then-

Dr. Aria 54:07 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 54:07 ... bounced.

Dr. Aria 54:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:08 And, and I don't know how true that is-

Dr. Aria 54:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:10 ... but it's something that I've believed because I've read this book for some time.

Dr. Aria 54:14 Yeah. So that's the dominant traditional understanding of human sexuality. Because whenever you look at other species, yes, it's ab- out, essentially an aggressive alpha male then, uh, being with a, uh, female and knowing that their offspring has been continued through that lineage. There's an alternative which has come out more recently where, uh, and it was, there was a paper published in Science in 2015 that actually showed-... that what separated humans from other great apes was our social organization.

Steven Bartlett 54:56 Yeah. About 10,000 years ago, we started living, uh, next to water and in camps, and-

Dr. Aria 55:00 Exactly.

Steven Bartlett 55:00 ... yeah. So, and then, we were a tribe essentially. I- I've-

Dr. Aria 55:03 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 55:03 ... read about that.

Dr. Aria 55:04 And up until that point though, it's very possible that we had, uh, multiple sexual partners-

Steven Bartlett 55:11 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 55:11 ... but biological paternity was less of a concern because our structure was such that, so what we found out now is, we didn't used to live with our close relatives. We actually created social ties with other individuals. And so we're set up in such a way that the focus wasn't ever on individual survival.

Steven Bartlett 55:32 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 55:32 It was on group survival, group identity, group welfare. And the reason is, it's the group that keeps you alive anyway.

Steven Bartlett 55:41 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 55:41 And so, it's very possible that then there was a shift which happened actually with this advent of private por- property, because that's whenever paternity would matter. Because there are some hunter-gatherer communities that believe when multiple men have sex with a female, that it's the collectively... Because you have to think, where does our understanding of the sperm, eh, and the embryo come from?

Steven Bartlett 56:09 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 56:09 That's very recent. It's a very recent biological understanding. Our ancestors wouldn't have known that. And there were, are some beliefs where collectively the men contribute to the production of the child.

Steven Bartlett 56:21 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 56:22 But actually, it's almost like an amalgamation of the different men that creates that child, and that child becomes part of the group as opposed to that one person's child.

Steven Bartlett 56:31 And th- this is the thing c- just to, like, challenge that thinking-

Dr. Aria 56:35 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 56:35 ... say that there was one man in the group that was slightly better in making sure he was the one that inseminated the female-

Dr. Aria 56:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 56:45 ... he, his genes would pass on.

Dr. Aria 56:46 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 56:46 His, his genetics would pass on as being slightly better, for whatever reason-

Dr. Aria 56:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 56:51 ... at inseminating, uh, uh, a woman, and, uh, therefore, in the next round of, you know, the next generation, he would have a slight advantage potent- th- th- th- the kid of that man would have a slight genetic predisposition for being good at that-

Dr. Aria 57:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 57:05 ... which would increase the probability that it would pass on again and again and again.

Dr. Aria 57:09 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 57:09 And it seems like tha- that, those genetics and that ability to be good at inseminating, whether it's through being territorial, or being stronger, or being more persuasive, or being more, you know, more of a peacock-

Dr. Aria 57:19 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 57:20 ... um, through generations over the space of a million years from the chimps, that would create a scenario where we are programmed to be, through our psychology and our behavior-

Dr. Aria 57:28 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 57:28 ... and our peacocking, good at, you know-

Dr. Aria 57:31 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 57:32 ... at winning.

Dr. Aria 57:33 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 57:33 Uh, ef- even through slightly more malicious methods or...

Dr. Aria 57:36 Yeah. And then there's also the social conditioning and the ideas of-

Steven Bartlett 57:41 Of course, yeah.

Dr. Aria 57:42 ... of marriage, of monogamy, of romanticism, of what that means. And, and I think what had really come particularly through my work with clients is seeing that where people find themselves in trouble is when there's enmeshment, whenever there's too much, when there's too much closeness, when actually, the identity of one person is submerged with the identity of the other-

Steven Bartlett 58:04 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 58:05 ... and there's no space.

Steven Bartlett 58:07 Did that happen to you in your marriage, where you became more like her?

Dr. Aria 58:14 It's incredible that you ask that. (page turns)

Steven Bartlett 58:17 I have a little announcement to make. And if you're watching this on YouTube, you might have seen a little clue as to what I'm about to say. When we brought this podcast back and we decided that we were gonna do it every single week on Monday, we also decided that we wanted to find a sponsor and a partner to help support the growth of this podcast so that we can take it all over the world, we can produce the video format, we can hire a big team, and we can make sure it gets out to as many people as possible. And so here's what I did. I thought of a couple of companies that I really, really love and companies that I've used for many, many years and I've been an avid customer of. And one of those companies, in fact, the first company I contacted was this one, Huel. And if you ha- if you don't know what Huel is, then you must have been living under a rock per se, but Huel has been a huge part of my life for about four years. I s- I first started drinking Huel four years ago when I first moved to New York and I was running Social Chain. And the reason I did was because I was frequently missing meals. I, and if you, if you know me personally, you'll know how true this is. I will wake up in the morning and I'll rush through my day meeting, meeting, meeting, meeting, speaking on stage, flying somewhere, and I'll get to about 9:00 PM and I wouldn't have eaten a single thing. And there's no, you know, nutritional expert in the world that will tell you that's a good thing. And what then happened was I was binge-eating at 9:00 or 10:00. And when I say binge-eating, I mean like two large Domino's pizzas to myself. And so then I discovered this thing called Huel about four years ago. And for me, Huel is a nutritionally complete drink, which means that I don't have to spend hours preparing food, which I wouldn't do anyway, hence why I was skipping meals. It means that I get all the good stuff I need to perform and have a good diet, but I can have it in, like, 20 seconds. And as someone that values time so, so much, Huel was a godsend.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:04 I've been a customer for, I think, four years. I've had my subscription with Huel for four years. So when I was looking for someone to sponsor the podcast, I contacted the CEO, who's been on the podcast before, Julian, and has built this staggering company. I sent him an email, I said, "Listen, Julian, I would love you to sponsor my podcast because I can actually talk about your product authentically." And he said to me, "Because you've had a subscription with Huel for the last three, four years, and I know you're a customer," he was up for doing it. So I thank Huel, and, um, every week on the podcast, I'm gonna talk about different things to do with Huel, to do with time saving, to do with, um, diet and nutrition. And of course, we're gonna get Julian back on the podcast at some point. Their company is doing unbelievable things in the UK. If you've not seen and sort of kept up with the progress of Huel, I highly recommend you do, 'cause it's one of the most exciting companies we've seen in the UK in a long, long time. And, uh, it's an absolute honor and a privilege to, to have them sponsoring The Diary of a CEO, the perfect company to be on this podcast, because, you know, it's a company that are so in line with some of my central values. (page turns) Did that happen to you in your marriage, where you became more like her?

Dr. Aria 1:01:11 It's incredible that you ask that. Whenever we first met, she was the sensible one, and very prudent, very pragmatic, very level-headed. She made very safe, sensible choices, in life in general, and she was known in that way. I was a bit more of a rogue. I was, uh, a little bit more mysterious. There was probably a sort of, you know, hint of mischievous, of, um- Spontaneity? Yeah, of playfulness. And, and there's an idea in psychology that we all, that we seek in the other person a part of ourselves that we've lost. And so there was almost that, um, that attraction there, it created that chemistry, it drew us in together. I think she was looking for that excitement and- and in a way, that safe danger. I was actually looking for stability and groundedness. And over time, it- it connected us and brought us together. But over time, a remarkable thing happened, and that is, just like you said, I began to become more like her. I became, became safer. And I actually lost an intrinsic part of who I was. I lost the, the wild child that's in me. I lost the part that's a bit more dangerous, that's a bit more risky, that doesn't always say something which is politically correct. And I became almost like a sanitized, clean version of who I was. And that's not the man that she met. And that's not the man that she fell in love with. And on one level, it- it worked in terms of a stable love; there was reliability, there was dependability, there was relatability. But it crushed the desire, with a slow suffocation of that desire over the last couple of years. And so I believe that one day, she woke up and she sensed that loss of connection, which I also sensed too, and that loss of intimacy, and she was scared. And when the mind is scared, it comes up with thoughts, "Is this it? Am I gonna have to live like this for the next 10, 20 years? Will I ever get that chemistry or that connection back? What if it never comes back?" And when we're afraid, we're then seeking that, that part of ourselves that we've lost. And so it's almost less about the other person and more about us. It's less about turning away from our partner and more about turning away from a part of ourselves. It's less about finding another person and more about finding another part of ourselves in which we feel alive. And I think the affair would have been wildly tempting, wildly exciting. It would have been all the things, it would have given her a lot of the things that we had in the beginning that she missed. And suddenly it was back. And even the structure of an affair is such that you can't have the other person, and forbidden is erotic. And it's set up in such a way that it just perpetually creates desire because it ha- it has to be secretive, it can't be long-lasting for long periods of time. There's continual space. Now, if fire needs air, desire needs space. And we found ourselves in a situation in which we were seeing each other every day. I used to be traveling, I used to be working away a lot more. We had, we'd have pockets where we'd be apart, and in that pocket, even if you're away for a day or a couple of days, there's a sense of loss, on a very micro level, and then a sense of excitement of the person coming back and reimagining that life together. Mm-hmm. And so going back to your point, I did, I changed, and that's on, that's something which I've learned from. I've cha- I changed and I became like a squeaky clean version of me, and- and she ironically ended up turning towards what she'd lost. That something you regret? I could feel regret in the way that I said it there. (sighs) Yes. Yeah, being, being honest, if I could've, if I could've changed... On one level, if I could've changed that, if I'd been aware of that and I'd, and I'd seen it coming, then I would've wanted to- to stay true to who I am. And that's the path I'm on now. And I'd- I'd be curious to hear your thoughts, but I- I want to live in line with my truth. And it's like John 8:32, "The truth will set you free." And I believe that when we're living in line with our truth, it saves you. And whenever we neglect our truth- Yep. ... it destroys you. Yeah. And so if I, if I'd, if I'd been able to s- stay truthful, I think it would've been a very different trajectory. I don't... Because the relationship worked on multiple levels and we, and- and it did, we had a wonderful, um, time together for- for eight years. But it's a little bit like putting a frog in boiling water. It was in cold water and the desire is the frog, it's alive-You don't notice the heat, there are unknown factors-

Steven Bartlett 1:07:18 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 1:07:18 ... that were at play. And it was a dance, it was both of us, there's no... it, we, we both contributed to that situation. I think she wanted me to be that stable, dependable, reliable person, without realizing that on a subconscious level, she actually was attracted to the man that I was.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:38 Yeah.

Dr. Aria 1:07:38 And I wanted to make her happy, and didn't want her to be the c- kind of person that creates ten- tension, or, or, or there being too much grit. But actually, tension is what creates fire at the same time.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:51 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 1:07:51 And so, the rough edges were a part of who I was, and I didn't need to get rid of them.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:56 It's so crazy,

Steven Bartlett 1:07:57 it's almost quite contradictory. The typical narrative you hear about relationships is, especially from, you know, dare I say it, um, women-

Dr. Aria 1:08:05 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:06 ... in movies and on Instagram, is, there's this conversation around, "Can I change him?"

Dr. Aria 1:08:11 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:12 And it's, and it seems typically that people want to change, their, th- or they, they hold out hope, or they want to change their partner in some way to make them more like the image they have of that person.

Dr. Aria 1:08:22 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:23 But in fact, what you're describing is the thing that ends up saving the relationship is, A, finding someone that you love for the way that they are-

Dr. Aria 1:08:34 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:34 ... and you're attracted to for the way that they are. But then both parties having a resilience to change-

Dr. Aria 1:08:39 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:40 ... um, to some degree. But-

Dr. Aria 1:08:41 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:41 ... because of that understanding-

Dr. Aria 1:08:43 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:43 ... that you formed your relationship on the basis of this person being like this.

Dr. Aria 1:08:47 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:48 And then, but then you say, "Okay, so," (sighs) over time, people change. And in fact, in the last podcast we did-

Dr. Aria 1:08:55 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:55 ... there's a quote where you said, "Change is the only constant."

Dr. Aria 1:08:58 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:58 So both of you are gonna change anyway, and you talk about the spiritual, psychological-

Dr. Aria 1:09:02 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:03 ... change that both p- parties go on. And again, this kind of draws it back to the conversation around monogamy, is, you know you're gonna change anyway. Like-

Dr. Aria 1:09:10 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:11 ... you 10 years ago versus you now is probably a little bit more stable, and a little bit more-

Dr. Aria 1:09:15 Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:15 ... you know, solid, and a little bit more rational in your thinking. Um, and because, as you said in the last podcast, change is a constant, how do you form a... how can you guarantee that death will do you part-

Dr. Aria 1:09:28 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:28 ... when change might do you part first?

Dr. Aria 1:09:30 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:31 And, and this kind of brings us back to the conversation around monogamy, which is, I guess this is my question to you, is like, if you... what do you suspect now-

Dr. Aria 1:09:41 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:41 ... if not marriage, is going to be the way that, you know, when you meet someone, what do you suspect, what's your hypothesis on how that relationship will be constructed?

Dr. Aria 1:09:52 For me personally?

Steven Bartlett 1:09:53 Yeah. I've got mine.

Dr. Aria 1:09:54 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:56 But, uh, mine kind of-

Dr. Aria 1:09:58 (sighs)

Steven Bartlett 1:09:58 I can tell you mine if you want first, and then-

Dr. Aria 1:09:59 Yeah, yeah. Sh-

Steven Bartlett 1:10:00 Okay. 'Cause mine kind of draws on something you said.

Dr. Aria 1:10:01 And then, and then I'll just say, me too.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:03 Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Dr. Aria 1:10:05 (laughs) Safe.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:05 Yeah, yeah. We'll both go down together.

Dr. Aria 1:10:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:08 So one of the, it was interesting, what you said there about, um, s- space being-

Dr. Aria 1:10:13 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:13 ... the, the heir to a flame, right?

Dr. Aria 1:10:15 Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:15 And for me, that's so critical. Earlier on, when you were talking about marriage-

Dr. Aria 1:10:19 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:19 ... one of the factors you, you, you were talking about was how, where marriage came from is a social construct-

Dr. Aria 1:10:26 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:26 ... and how it centers on like, you know, you know, religion, and, and God, and all of these things. And one of the things that I think is also really important to understand is, as a general first principles rule, if people are different-

Dr. Aria 1:10:38 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:39 ... and we all are different, every single human being on this Earth is different, then the solution should be different. Like, the, the glove we fit is different. We have different-sized feet-

Dr. Aria 1:10:48 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:48 ... and different-sized hands. So the solution to love, or whatever that is, as binary as it sounds, should therefore be bespoke-

Dr. Aria 1:10:54 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:54 ... to who you are and the life you're living. And for me, I live a, a life where I'm s- I get my fulfillment out of-

Dr. Aria 1:11:00 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:00 ... the podcast, and my work, and that's, it's such a big part of my wiring. I can't change that, it's the way that I am. I'm different from my brother-

Dr. Aria 1:11:07 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:07 ... and he's only a couple of months older than me. I'm completely different. And so, as it relates to love, and me having a bespoke solution to when I meet someone and I, when I have kids, or when I, you know, want them t- to be my partner, um, the solution should also be bespoke.

Dr. Aria 1:11:21 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:22 And so I look at th- the situation that would be right for me, and it is one that's really, really reliant on space.

Dr. Aria 1:11:29 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:30 I love being on my own.

Dr. Aria 1:11:31 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:32 I'm happy there. I, I love having time to myself to reflect, to think-

Dr. Aria 1:11:35 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:36 ... um, to work on my projects. Space is such a big thing for me.

Dr. Aria 1:11:39 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:40 So marriage, and the idea of moving in with someone, and them being, you know, on top of me seven days a week for the next 60 years, is a, is a, is something that I almost can't understand. I'm not sure if I'm like psychologically fucked up-

Dr. Aria 1:11:53 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:53 ... and that's why I can't deal with that. But I love this idea as, the founder of Huel said on this podcast, of treating my relationship with my romantic partner in the same way that I treat my relationship with my best friend.

Dr. Aria 1:12:06 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:06 He and my best friend seem to get on perfectly well.

Dr. Aria 1:12:08 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:12:08 And we, and I can't see a divorce ever coming, you know what I mean?

Dr. Aria 1:12:11 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:11 Because we have that space. And we have the, the middle ground that we meet upon, which is the relationship-

Dr. Aria 1:12:16 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:17 ... but we have a fundamental amount of space, um, which we both need. And like, in fact, my best friend moved in with me in lockdown-

Dr. Aria 1:12:25 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:25 ... for a month, and yeah, (laughs) uh...

Dr. Aria 1:12:29 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:12:29 ... he started to piss me off, you know (laughs) what I mean? Like, "Well, you breathe so fucking loud." You know what I mean? Like, like, "Clean up after yourself."

Dr. Aria 1:12:36 Totally. "How loudly do you chew your water?"

Steven Bartlett 1:12:37 We had an argument, I remember, we, I argued over something stupid, like-

Dr. Aria 1:12:40 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:40 ... a video game or something. Um, so I, uh, going to conclude the point, I know for me, that space-

Dr. Aria 1:12:46 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:46 ... and the lack of being on top of each other is something that would be a fundamental part of the relationship I have. I'm willing to commit, because I actually can't see a world where I would allow them not to-

Dr. Aria 1:12:55 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:55 ... or that I'd, I'd be happy with them not... Even the word allow, it's like permission, right? It's like such a-

Dr. Aria 1:13:01 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:01 ... arsehole thing to say. But I can't see a world where I would be okay with them not committing to me. So I f- I, I'm gonna have to concede there, and I think I'll figure that out hopefully if we can keep the sex good, right? (laughs)

Dr. Aria 1:13:11 Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:13:12 So space and commitment. I hate the idea of marriage. I don't think religion or the law have any in- f- should have any involvement on the topic of love.

Dr. Aria 1:13:20 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:20 I think they'd have a terrible track record. Religion with homosexuality and, and the, you know, the history that it has on love, and the law, I don't see why a court would have anything to do with how I feel about someone.

Dr. Aria 1:13:30 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:30 So I hate the idea of marriage.... some kind of commitment that offers me space with the right person, where we both understand that at some point, we might grow out of each other. And when we do, um-

Dr. Aria 1:13:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:42 ... that's fine. And I'm gonna conclude with one point, which you actually said in the last podcast, which was, when I asked you about monogamy and about committing to someone for life, you said to me, um, "Don't view it like that. Just ask yourself the question every single day."

Dr. Aria 1:13:55 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:56 "Today, am I happy to spend today-

Dr. Aria 1:13:59 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:59 ... this day with this person in this relationship?" And if the answer is yes, fine.

Dr. Aria 1:14:02 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:02 And if the answer is no, then it's something that needs to be addressed.

Dr. Aria 1:14:05 Yeah. Thanks for sharing that.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:10 Don't use it. (laughs)

Dr. Aria 1:14:16 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:14:16 (laughs)

Dr. Aria 1:14:16 I've actually got a photographic memory where-

Steven Bartlett 1:14:18 (laughs)

Dr. Aria 1:14:18 ... (laughs) ... I have stuff lined up and I work forward. Um, what I know for, for me is, there's definite similarities, in that realistically, I can't see myself being in a non-monogamous relationship. And if I was with someone, that would be the person that I would be with. In the past, though, in our last podcast when you asked me about the definition of love, that hasn't changed, in that I believe that love is fostering that emotional and spiritual growth of someone else. But what has changed is what I've realized in order to distinguish, though, between a partner that you're with and a partner that you have connection, and chemistry, and intimacy with, there has to be that physical intimacy, which, which is maintained and which is... and will wax and wane, but which can still be alight. Because whenever it dies, it irrevocably shakes the foundation of the relationship. And I don't think I put enough importance on that. I almost had, like, a zen-like view of marriage, as opposed to appreciating... And it was, it was funny. It was a, um... someone I was speaking to, and, and they were saying from a male perspective, females want the new man during the day, to be kind, sensitive, loving, and they want a Neanderthal in-

Steven Bartlett 1:15:51 To tie them up-

Dr. Aria 1:15:52 ... in the evening.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:53 ... handcuff them, and-

Dr. Aria 1:15:53 ... to...

Steven Bartlett 1:15:54 ... gag them at night. (laughs)

Dr. Aria 1:15:55 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:15:55 Yeah.

Dr. Aria 1:15:56 And it... but it... do you know? It got me thinking, because what if the same ingredients that lead to a long-lasting, loving relationship, or monogamous marriage, stability, dependability, relatability, safety, protection, caregiving, what if these are the same ingredients that kill desire?

Steven Bartlett 1:16:20 (laughs) Yeah.

Dr. Aria 1:16:21 Because what I think is true is that... and I should just speak for myself, what I potentially find attractive in the bedroom might be the things that I actually stand against during the day. There might be power, and there might be dominance, and that doesn't match up with how I see myself during the day. And so then you reach this conflict. And I think what I began to do was I began to become the new man, and only the new man.

Steven Bartlett 1:16:56 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 1:16:56 And actually, what I want to do more often is to tap more into both sides. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:17:03 There's that expression-

Dr. Aria 1:17:04 I'm far... I'm far too honest now? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:17:06 No, no. You're not. There's no such thing as far too honest. We talked about you-

Dr. Aria 1:17:08 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:08 ... the importance of living your truth.

Dr. Aria 1:17:10 Well, that's what I'm trying to lean into.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:11 100%.

Dr. Aria 1:17:11 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:11 And, uh, and there's this, uh, great philosopher called Usher, who says-

Dr. Aria 1:17:16 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:17:19 (laughs)

Dr. Aria 1:17:19 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:17:19 "A lady in the street-"

Dr. Aria 1:17:21 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:21 "... and a freak in the bed." And it's like-

Dr. Aria 1:17:22 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:23 ... uh, uh, and it... I heard that lyric maybe eight years ago, and I literally say it to my friends all the time when I'm talking about-

Dr. Aria 1:17:29 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:29 ... the type of partner that I want. And it's matching up exactly what you said, the civility and the class-

Dr. Aria 1:17:35 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:35 ... with the lack of class-

Dr. Aria 1:17:37 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:38 ... and the freakishness.

Dr. Aria 1:17:40 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:40 And, uh, and, and-

Dr. Aria 1:17:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:41 ... it's, it's hard to f- find and maintain the balance-

Dr. Aria 1:17:45 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:45 ... um, I found.

Dr. Aria 1:17:47 Yeah. And because sex can be really a journey of somewhere that you go-

Steven Bartlett 1:17:54 Yeah.

Dr. Aria 1:17:54 ... and so then there has to be that trust and that safety there.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:57 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 1:17:57 And at times, it might be about, uh, letting go of responsibility and surrendering. It might be about taking control and being dominant. But it's un- under- understanding what it means to you and, and at what times they should unfold-

Steven Bartlett 1:18:12 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 1:18:13 ... and, and be allowed to live so that your imagination can live. Because when it doesn't, and then it just becomes an act or something that you should do-

Steven Bartlett 1:18:22 Means you're meant to, yeah.

Dr. Aria 1:18:22 ... or a way of having children, then we begin to feel lost. And that's, you know, what's happened with a lot of clients that I've seen. And so going back to how I would want to imagine the situation is, yes, it'd be a monogamous relationship with, with another, um, with w- with a woman. And I would want to try and stay true to who I am, and still keep, keep that whole version of me. And that's what I've learned, keeping... And I've gone back to that. The wonderful thing is would I... you know, you asked me would... do I regret it? The reason also why I don't regret it, 'cause I'm not holding onto it, is because the changes have happened.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:04 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 1:19:04 And I've trusted that it was meant to be, and it was meant to unfold that way. And I'm much more in tune with who I am now. So I finally got my motorbike license.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:13 There you go.

Dr. Aria 1:19:14 And I-

Steven Bartlett 1:19:14 And the Neanderthal.

Dr. Aria 1:19:14 ... bought my, uh, Triumph Bonnie-

Steven Bartlett 1:19:18 (laughs)

Dr. Aria 1:19:18 ... uh, yesterday. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:19:18 Oh, amazing.

Dr. Aria 1:19:19 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:19:20 Congrats.

Dr. Aria 1:19:20 Um, and I'm doing the things which... And I realize 'cause I'm drawn to more of a sense of risk, and danger, and actually activities where I have to be consumed within that moment and be present. Uh, and I'm getting back in touch with who I am, and how I want to live my life, and, and what I want to stand for. And it's on me to maintain that with the next person I'm with.Another thing I learned was the space, because where we went wrong is whenever we didn't have the space. And actually, I realized I really enjoy living alone. I love that freedom.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:51 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 1:19:51 My other relationships are very important to me, with my brother, and my best friends. And so, I don't know yet what that will look like, but it will definitely involve more space.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:06 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 1:20:06 And, and also that sense of adventure and spontaneity, 'cause that's what I enjoy. I want to travel, I want to see different countries, and I've- I can set my life up where I'm doing that potentially with another person-

Steven Bartlett 1:20:18 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 1:20:18 ... or still pursuing my passions, and that is a safe relationships- relationship where that person knows that I love them and I'm there for them, but I won't always be-

Steven Bartlett 1:20:30 But then kids comes around.

Dr. Aria 1:20:31 ... in the same room.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:33 Fucks up this whole (laughs) fantasy.

Dr. Aria 1:20:35 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:20:35 Like, do you know what I mean? Because then-

Dr. Aria 1:20:36 We'll deal with that in podcast three.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:38 Yeah. (laughs)

Dr. Aria 1:20:39 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:20:39 But that's, that's the bit where I'm like, okay, it's all wonderful and perfect, a- a-

Dr. Aria 1:20:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:43 ... I was just thinking then, my last three relationships, they've all been in another country.

Dr. Aria 1:20:46 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:46 And it's- and it's probably the reason why it works is because I can walk around here in my boxer shorts all day, just like drinking my Huel, you know, eating my pot noodle or whatever-

Dr. Aria 1:20:54 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:55 ... and, um, being myself, and then we come together-

Dr. Aria 1:20:58 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:58 ... when they come there or I go there-

Dr. Aria 1:20:59 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:59 ... or we find wonderful, love it, great.

Dr. Aria 1:21:02 Yeah. Thank you.

Steven Bartlett 1:21:02 And then I go back and have my, you know-

Dr. Aria 1:21:04 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:21:04 ... my m- m-

Dr. Aria 1:21:05 Me time.

Steven Bartlett 1:21:05 ... bachelor lifestyle, you know? Um, but yeah, like, I- I- I think, um, kids is a- is a really... a topic which we would be, like, intellectually dishonest if we did- didn't-

Dr. Aria 1:21:19 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:21:19 ... address. Because there's- there'll be people listening to this that think, "Okay, well, that's all well and good, but when you become a father or a mother-"

Dr. Aria 1:21:26 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:21:27 "... you have to be there for your kids."

Dr. Aria 1:21:28 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:21:29 "And there's not a lot of science that says it's not good to be w- there for your kids, right?" So-

Dr. Aria 1:21:32 Yes. And in the same way that we can start to th- make sure that we clarify between what the science says and then what the script is.

Steven Bartlett 1:21:41 Sure.

Dr. Aria 1:21:42 Because absolutely we know that, uh, children will have better emotional outcomes and even physical development and, uh, situational success whenever they're br- brought up with a sensitive caregiver, someone who's responsive to their needs, someone who hears them, can hold them, give them safety-

Steven Bartlett 1:22:08 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 1:22:08 ... but also permission to be able to travel and come back, and who's invested in that child. But I'm not aware of studies that say that the parents have to be living in the same home, in the one house 12 months of the year-

Steven Bartlett 1:22:25 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 1:22:25 ... and b, their lives to be set up in a certain way, and I don't know what the answer is yet, and I'm not at that stage yet-

Steven Bartlett 1:22:33 Sure.

Dr. Aria 1:22:33 ... but I would be curious whenever I am at that stage to begin exploring, and it might not be as radical as it's envisioned at a certain point in time, but there might be enough space or enough still spontaneity or adventure or playfulness, even on an internal level, or in the way that you set your life up-

Steven Bartlett 1:22:53 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aria 1:22:53 ... where both partners have that space and still are able to maintain that passion.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:00 Isn't it crazy how much of life's misery and failure and, um, unhappiness stems from either trying to conform to the conventional way-

Dr. Aria 1:23:11 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:11 ... or the script, as you say-

Dr. Aria 1:23:13 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:13 ... or trying to fit into or even sometimes answer an invalid question? We talked a little bit about this on the last podcast, where I said, you know, I think so many people live their lives trying to answer invalid questions. Like-

Dr. Aria 1:23:25 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:25 ... what number is orange, is what I said last time.

Dr. Aria 1:23:27 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:28 And in the same way, you've got, you know, uh, the question, "Are you in love?"

Dr. Aria 1:23:32 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:32 Presumes a yes just by asking it. I'm forcing you to- to- to say yes-

Dr. Aria 1:23:37 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:37 ... or no. I'm also presuming that we've agreed upon the definition of in love-

Dr. Aria 1:23:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:42 ... which again is just a fucking maze 'cause no one's ever told me what that is.

Dr. Aria 1:23:46 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:46 No- you're not born and they go, "Okay," God goes, "Oh, by the way, if you ever feel this, that's love, okay?" And you go, "Okay, got you." Right?

Dr. Aria 1:23:52 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:52 'Cause I- you know-

Dr. Aria 1:23:52 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:52 ... and the word is so loosely i-

Dr. Aria 1:23:54 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:54 "I love peanut butter," or, "I love my dog-"

Dr. Aria 1:23:55 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:55 "... I love my girlfriend," "I love my wife," "I love my mum."

Dr. Aria 1:23:57 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:57 And it's like, so what? Is it different type?

Dr. Aria 1:23:59 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:59 It's such a fucking confusing, complex, nuanced thing, love, and we're forcing it into this yes or no.

Dr. Aria 1:24:04 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:04 And people will like, th- they'll ruin good things because they- they- they feel pressured-

Dr. Aria 1:24:10 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:10 ... or they're unsure if this is it.

Dr. Aria 1:24:12 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:12 You know? And, um, I just- I just wanted to kind of leave that point there in a sense of like that idea of like, you know, so- I know so many people listening to this will- will be unknowingly programmed by convention.

Dr. Aria 1:24:24 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:24 And it's like the first principle thinking-

Dr. Aria 1:24:27 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:27 ... and the ability to question-

Dr. Aria 1:24:29 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:29 ... why you're doing what you're doing.

Dr. Aria 1:24:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:31 And then I guess lastly, to have the f- fearlessness or the courage to potentially interrogate and then reject-

Dr. Aria 1:24:40 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:40 ... it, um, that can literally save you-

Dr. Aria 1:24:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:43 ... in every facet. It saved me, like, go to university, get a job, do this.

Dr. Aria 1:24:47 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:47 And I- I- I stopped going to school 'cause I thought it was a load of shit. Dropped out of university after one lecture, started a business, and I am, as I've said on this podcast before-

Dr. Aria 1:24:55 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:55 ... I'm the happiest person I know.

Dr. Aria 1:24:56 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:56 I've reached a level of success at a ridiculously young age. I managed to like write a s- write a new story, write a new script-

Dr. Aria 1:25:02 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:02 ... for how life can be lived.

Dr. Aria 1:25:04 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:04 And, um, people admire me-

Dr. Aria 1:25:06 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:06 ... and listen to this podcast basically only because, not because I'm smarter than anyone else or anything else, it's fundamentally, if you go back to where it started, was because I, for some reason, was willing to question the script.

Dr. Aria 1:25:19 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:20 And then had the, as they call it, fearlessness. For me, it wasn't fearl-

Dr. Aria 1:25:23 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:23 For me, the biggest fear was fucking following the script, clearly.

Dr. Aria 1:25:25 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:25 Right?

Dr. Aria 1:25:26 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:26 But had the perceived-

Dr. Aria 1:25:27 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:27 ... fearlessness to say, "Well, this doesn't make sense."

Dr. Aria 1:25:29 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:30 Um-

Dr. Aria 1:25:31 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:31 ... how does that resonate with you?

Dr. Aria 1:25:33 Two things come to mind. One is that, like you said before, the solution, in my mind, will be bespoke.... because we're trying to take a one-size-fits-all solution, a panacea, and apply it to everyone.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:47 Hmm.

Dr. Aria 1:25:47 And, and we're all unique. And it's important,