She Cheated On Me and Thats Not All - Dr. Aria | E56

1. 0:00 – 1:10

   Intro

   1. SBSteven Bartlett0:00

      You've made a great decision. And I say this as impartially as I possibly can, but this podcast is... it's really the reason why I started The Diary of a CEO. It's to hear these kinds of stories from these kinds of people, and I've got to be honest with you, I spent about a year asking this person to come on this podcast and have a conversation with me. Today's guest is Dr. Aria, and he's been on the podcast once before. He's a, a world-renowned high-performance coach and he works with some of the world's most accomplished athletes, actors, and everyone in between as they try and reach a mindset state that is conducive with success, with happiness, and with overall fulfillment. But he's not here to talk about that today. He's here to talk about something very, very different, something uncomfortable, something unimaginable. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody is listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music)

2. 1:10 – 14:19

   The Story

   1. SBSteven Bartlett1:10

      Sometimes in life, you have these unbelievable, somewhat cruel coincidences that occur that it's hard to make sense of, and last time you came on this podcast, I would define it as, for me anyway, a pretty cruel coincidence because we had a conversation, um, to do with life generally and, and success and the mindset and psychology and all the things that you're an expert on.

   2. ARDr. Aria1:36

      (laughs)

   3. SBSteven Bartlett1:36

      And for whatever reason, that day-

   4. ARDr. Aria1:39

      (laughs)

   5. SBSteven Bartlett1:39

      ... I decided that I wanted to spend 30 minutes talking about marriage, cheating, love, and asking you these, um, very personal questions about monogamy, which I've never done before with any guest ever, and which I really had no place or reason to ask you more than anyone else, and it just feels to me, for what we're gonna talk about in part today, that that was a bit of a cruel coincidence, and you know, one of the questions I asked you was, um, "Do you believe in monogamy?" And then I asked you, "Can you love someone and cheat on them?" And when I listened to that podcast back, I now noticed, um, why you laughed.

   6. ARDr. Aria2:19

      Yeah.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett2:19

      Because it wasn't a... You laughed, yeah-

   8. ARDr. Aria2:21

      Yeah.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett2:21

      ... and it wasn't a normal laugh.

   10. ARDr. Aria2:22

       (laughs)

   11. SBSteven Bartlett2:23

       It was like a real belly laugh, right?

   12. ARDr. Aria2:25

       Yeah. Yeah.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett2:25

       Like a, a bit of a nervous belly laugh.

   14. ARDr. Aria2:26

       Yeah.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett2:28

       After we came off air on that podcast, you told me something.

   16. ARDr. Aria2:32

       Mm-hmm.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett2:33

       And, uh, it- it even gives me goosebumps now thinking about what you said, and it gave the whole team in the room who overheard our conversation goosebumps as well, so... After our 30-minute conversation about marriage and monogamy and cheating and love, what did you say to me?

   18. ARDr. Aria2:53

       Told you a story.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett2:54

       Yeah.

   20. ARDr. Aria2:54

       And that was, uh, about two weeks earlier. I'd been traveling back from London home, and I got out of the train station, and my wife picked me up, and we got into the car, and we had planned to go and have brunch at my favorite little spot. They do amazing Huevos Rancheros sauce. I was very excited.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett3:17

       (laughs)

   22. ARDr. Aria3:17

       And she said, "Let's go straight home. I've made sandwiches." And she doesn't make great sandwiches, so I said, "No, no, I think the brunch is a better option." And she said, "No, there's something that I need to tell you." And I said, "Is it bad?" And she said, "Yes." And I said, "Is it about the marriage?" And she said, "Yes." And then we began to drive back, and I had this sinking feeling in me. And we're, we drove for about five minutes in silence, and then I went to put my hand on her lap, and she said, "Don't. Don't touch me 'cause she won't want you after I've told you what's happened," and that's whenever it drops. And I remember that 10-minute drive back home then felt like an eternity. I was just looking out the window. And we got home. We got into the house, into the kitchen, and I was standing by the kitchen table, hands rested on it, and I said, "What's happened?" And she said, "I've been having an affair with a man from work." And I remember just tears began to stream. I di- I didn't move, completely motionless. Tears began to stream, and then she said, "And that's not all." And she said, "I'm pregnant with his child." And in that moment, I felt like I lost a lot. You know, I'd lost my wife. I'd lost the life we'd created. I'd lost, uh, the dog, our home, her, my parents-in-law, her family, everything that I'd really held dear. If someone said, "What makes a meaningful life?" I would've described these things, and it felt like they'd just been snatched away, just came crumbling down like a house of cards. And then fast-forward two weeks, and Steve-

   23. SBSteven Bartlett5:12

       Ugh, fucking hell.

   24. ARDr. Aria5:14

       ... decides to ask-

   25. SBSteven Bartlett5:15

       (laughs) Punching your fist.

   26. ARDr. Aria5:15

       And I remember because the first thing-

   27. SBSteven Bartlett5:17

       Punching my fists.

   28. ARDr. Aria5:17

       No, no, it was fascinating 'cause the first thing you asked was, "You're married, right?" And I did this high-pitched laugh, and I go... (laughs)

   29. SBSteven Bartlett5:25

       (laughs)

   30. ARDr. Aria5:26

       "Yes." And then, and then the conversation flowed on, and, and it's themes that I'd really thought about. Can you love someone and cheat on them? Does monogamy exist? Is it natural? Are we set up to live a life where we're in one relationship with one person only? And so over the past 18 months, it's been a process and some of these themes have been very real to me.
3. 14:19 – 41:19

   Processing the emotions

   1. ARDr. Aria14:19

      experiencing.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett14:19

      Let's talk about that.

   3. ARDr. Aria14:20

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett14:20

      So, a lot of people experience grief in many forms, and this somewhat feels like the c- the central emotion. You described it as a loss. It feels like a form of grief.

   5. ARDr. Aria14:28

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett14:28

      What was your process for moving from, you know, finding out that it had happened to, to where you are today, where you're, you know, you've, quote-unquote, "processed" it, I imagine, as much as you might have been able to at this stage?

   7. ARDr. Aria14:43

      Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett14:44

      Some-

   9. ARDr. Aria14:44

      Yeah.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett14:45

       ... yeah. What was your process?

   11. ARDr. Aria14:48

       The way I think people often, um, catch themself in a, in a counterve- productive cycle is whenever they try and avoid experiencing what they're experiencing. They try and shun it, lock it away, put it in a box-

   12. SBSteven Bartlett15:03

       Mm-hmm.

   13. ARDr. Aria15:03

       ... disconnect from it, deny it, and they just focus on the future and, "Where I am going," and they might try and rationalize it. Uh, "This happened because of X or because of Y," and then they try and forge ahead. And I think it comes back to bite them at some point. The simplest truth is that we can only ever experience one moment at a time, and I remind myself of that. I don't need to think about right now the financial separation, the divorce, what it means a- about friends or family, or, or will I meet someone again, or how long will it be, or what will my life look like, or where am I going to live? So many different factors that could be overwhelming. I just decided to deal with one moment at a time. All I need to do is deal with this one moment. And what is this one moment bringing me? And accepting and welcoming, it sounds strange, but welcoming whatever comes up. And so whatever emotion came up, I didn't try and push it away, or shunt it, or deny it, or negate it. I let it, I let it sit. And that's why I cried so much.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett16:08

       (laughs) Hmm.

   15. ARDr. Aria16:08

       (laughs) Because there was so much sadness.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett16:10

       Did you write down the emotions you were experiencing?

   17. ARDr. Aria16:14

       So, I didn't write down the emotions, but what I did in the next step is, so the first step was awareness and accepting whatever emotions I felt. And I, and I l- and seeing that they come and then they go. You know, there'd, there'd be moments where I'd be laughing with my brother, and then crying a minute later, and then talking about something else. The second step was reminding myself of reality. Because I was so ingrained in, in an internal model of what life looked like. "I have a strong, stable marriage in which my partner subconsciously, uh, you know, implicitly, I believe, is faithful. We're meant to be together. We're going to be together for the next 50, 60 years until one of us dies. Uh, we're going to have children together." That was my internal model. And I had to rip it apart. I had to take it down. I had to dismantle it, and I had to remind myself of the reality of the situation. I had to, I had to accept it. I had to accept, "It's over. It's not going to change. There's no going back. The final nail is in the coffin, and you need to take that on board." And I'd also write any s- I would write down reminders of, of what had happened, and I also wrote down any insights I had about the situation that I could remind myself of, and I wrote down how I wanted to handle this process. Um, I can actually read a few out if you want.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett17:57

       Please. Please.

   19. ARDr. Aria17:58

       I've got, um... So I, I, I literally would just write them down on my phone. Um, and so...... afterwards, I, I began to split them up into different sections.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett18:09

       Mm-hmm.

   21. ARDr. Aria18:10

       This- but this one was for the process. Hold yourself to the highest standard. Choose actions that you can be proud of. How you get through this process is more important than how quickly you get through this process. 'Cause for me, what's important that I still lived with personal integrity, that I didn't ... that I wasn't warped or changed or, um, consumed with vengeance or acted in ways that was out of spite or out of emotion. I wanted to be able to look back on this in 12 months, 18 months time-

   22. SBSteven Bartlett18:48

       Oh.

   23. ARDr. Aria18:48

       ... and still feel good about it, have a clear conscience, still able to put my head down and feel as though I handled that to the best of my ability. With God, you can get through this. You can become stronger, wiser, more caring, more compassionate, and more loving. And that's another thing that actually the deepest moments of s- suffering can actually be opportunities for growth. Even if you don't want it, there's something there that, that you can learn and c- can grow from. You don't need anything from her anymore. Um, and that ... and then different reminders. You have nothing to feel bad about. You aren't responsible. You have nothing to feel guilty about. Nothing. Because there were moments where y- my mind would almost begin to, in a way, play a trick on me and begin to try and create reasons, um, to feel bad or to try and create shame. And at those times, while I would accept what came up, I decided not to pursue that line of thinking-

   24. SBSteven Bartlett19:49

       Wow.

   25. ARDr. Aria19:49

       ... because that didn't fit. Whenever I was calm and clear, this came to me. And so I'd write down whatever came to me whenever I was in a place of wisdom.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett19:59

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   27. ARDr. Aria20:00

       Then when their emotion hit-

   28. SBSteven Bartlett20:02

       Mm-hmm.

   29. ARDr. Aria20:02

       ... and I'm not seeing clearly and I've got on a clouded lens, this little baby became (laughs) my best friend-

   30. SBSteven Bartlett20:08

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
4. 41:19 – 1:00:04

   Adapting my opinion of marriage and monogamy

   1. ARDr. Aria41:19

   2. SBSteven Bartlett41:19

      And this, um, you know, horrific experience, what has it done to your opinion of monogamy?

   3. ARDr. Aria41:28

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett41:28

      Because I'm sure, I'm guessing from what you've said, the way that you planned your life ahead, you thought when you, you know, when you went, walked down the aisle and you said those words, "Till death do us part."

   5. ARDr. Aria41:38

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett41:38

      You then planned the next 60 years of your life and how your life was gonna pan out. And when you said those words at the end of the, at the altar, you were totally convinced-

   7. ARDr. Aria41:48

      Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett41:49

      ... totally convinced that this person-

   9. ARDr. Aria41:51

      Yeah.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett41:51

       ... was the, the person, your soulmate. Um, how do you feel about all of those concepts now, like soulmate and monogamy and till death do us part?

   11. ARDr. Aria42:01

       The experience led me to a position where I began to question my deepest assumptions about monogamy, about marriage, about lifelong relationships. And in the same way, I began to take a step back and reflect and contemplate, I became very aware that there is a social script for relationships. And it generally goes, the conventional model is boy meets girl, it's not even boy meets boy or girl meets girl. There's a first date, a first kiss, uh, a period of courting.At some point, um, there will be sex, meeting the parents, hopefully not at the same time (laughs) naturally-

   12. SBSteven Bartlett42:43

       (laughs) Actually, fuck. (laughs)

   13. ARDr. Aria42:45

       ... relationship becomes, uh, exclusive, and then engagement, marriage, children, till death do us part. And I realize that that is a social construction. It's a conventional model based on assumptions that monogamy is natural, that marriage is a human universal, and that any structure other than the nuclear one is aberrant.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett43:14

       Hmm.

   15. ARDr. Aria43:16

       And so then I began to think, okay, well what are the different, what are the different elements? So on the one hand, we can take, and w- we touched upon it briefly, uh, a evolutionary perspective. And we are apes. It's not just that we've descended from apes, we are apes. We're one of the five Homo sapiens are one of the five surviving species of great apes along with orangutans, bonobos, gorillas, and, and chimpanzees. And yet, at some point, we separated from that psychologically. And actually, the fine print that distinguishes humans from other great apes has been described by primatologists as wholly inadequate. It's, it, it's a fabrication. And at some stage, we began to see ourselves as special and unique and above nature and exempt from our primal history, 'cause we descended from hyper-sexual ancestors. So if the Homo lineage has been around for 2 million years, modern humans have been around for 200,000 years, and about 10,000 years ago, there, there was a shift in going from hunter-gatherers to settled communities beca- because of the advent of agriculture. Now, up until 10,000 years ago, the data now suggests that we actually lived by fiercely egalitarian principles. Everything was shared, food, shelter, water, childcare, and even sexual partners. Casual sexuality was the norm for our prehistoric ancestors. For 95% of the collective experience of our lineage, that is what we experienced. And it wasn't, it wasn't based on meaningless random relationships. They were relationships that reinforced, uh, a social pattern that, that we needed to survive. It minimized our risk and it reinforced social ties. But then with the advent of agriculture, we began to settle. We had then, we had land, we had, uh, domesticated animals, and for the first time, private por- property came into play. And suddenly, there, there was a change, and there was even a change in the status of women. Because when we look at it, the human female up until that point was on, was on an equal playing field. They were as responsible for the hunting and the cooking and making decisions about where they were going to settle. And then it changed, and the female became the property of the man, something that he had to maintain and keep. And actually, the reason that property came into play is because we weren't moving, so it did matter what happened to our resources. We were accumulating. And biological paternity, for the first time, became crucial. And so on a, on a natural, evolutionary level, monogamy didn't exist. We didn't live in long-term, monogamous relationships. Then we bring in marriage. And if we fast-forward about five-and-a-half thousand years, in about 2,350 BC in, in Mesopotamia, we had the first marriage between, the union between a man and a woman. And over the next few hundred years, it spread. The ancient Romans, Greeks, Hebrews, they began to adopt this widespread practice. But marriage had a diff- had a very different meaning across the ages. In the, um, 5th century with Anglo-Saxons, it was about securing trade ties. It was a diplomatic tool. In the 11th century, marriage was about financial, economic, and political advantage. Uh, well, and as early as the 12th, religion be- became involved. And, and Roman Catholicism, uh, tied it to sacrament and into being a sacred experience related to experiencing God. Then about 500 years ago, Thomas Cranmer came up with the modern day marital vows that we read out today, and he was architecture of, uh, English Pro- Protestantism. And then up until 1858, divorce was rare. Marriage was something which was lifelong and it wasn't really questioned. But then it became a legal process that you could apply to do. And it was still, still relatively uncommon 'cause it, uh, it was expensive and a woman had to prove aggravated adultery, bestiality, sodomy, cruelty. And then the divorce case really opened up in 1969 with the Divorce Reform Act and marital breakdown could be, could then be cited. So whenever we begin to take a different lens and w- and we see the journey that it's taken and then we ask, "Well, where are we today?"... since 1975, there's been a drop in marriages by about 30%. More people are now opting to cohabit than they are to get married. Divorce statistics in England and Wales are at 42%. You could arguably say that the system is collapsing, that it is beginning to crumble. And then I would even take a cultural lens-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett49:05

       Yeah.

   17. ARDr. Aria49:05

       ... and if I'm talking too much, (laughs) just-

   18. SBSteven Bartlett49:07

       No, uh, fascinating.

   19. ARDr. Aria49:08

       ... jump in there.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett49:08

       Super fascinating.

   21. ARDr. Aria49:09

       So culturally, um, so the Spanish word esposas means wife and handcuffs. We joke about the wife being the ball and chain.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett49:22

       Hmm.

   23. ARDr. Aria49:24

       Uh, a friend got married, uh, got married, got engaged last week and the talk amongst the boys was, "This is the beginning of the end of your sex life."

   24. SBSteven Bartlett49:32

       Yeah.

   25. ARDr. Aria49:34

       But women don't fare any better. You know, 43% of American women report sexual dysfunction, Viagra sales are increasing every year, they're, they're just record highs year upon year.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett49:46

       Porn is through the fucking roof.

   27. ARDr. Aria49:47

       (laughs)

   28. SBSteven Bartlett49:49

       (laughs) Not that I would know.

   29. ARDr. Aria49:50

       (laughs) Yeah.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett49:51

       A friend told me.
5. 1:00:04 – 1:07:57

   How I Lost an intrinsic part of who I was

   1. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:04

      I've been a customer for, I think, four years. I've had my subscription with Huel for four years. So when I was looking for someone to sponsor the podcast, I contacted the CEO, who's been on the podcast before, Julian, and has built this staggering company. I sent him an email, I said, "Listen, Julian, I would love you to sponsor my podcast because I can actually talk about your product authentically." And he said to me, "Because you've had a subscription with Huel for the last three, four years, and I know you're a customer," he was up for doing it. So I thank Huel, and, um, every week on the podcast, I'm gonna talk about different things to do with Huel, to do with time saving, to do with, um, diet and nutrition. And of course, we're gonna get Julian back on the podcast at some point. Their company is doing unbelievable things in the UK. If you've not seen and sort of kept up with the progress of Huel, I highly recommend you do, 'cause it's one of the most exciting companies we've seen in the UK in a long, long time. And, uh, it's an absolute honor and a privilege to, to have them sponsoring The Diary of a CEO, the perfect company to be on this podcast, because, you know, it's a company that are so in line with some of my central values. (page turns) Did that happen to you in your marriage, where you became more like her?

   2. ARDr. Aria1:01:11

      It's incredible that you ask that. Whenever we first met, she was the sensible one, and very prudent, very pragmatic, very level-headed. She made very safe, sensible choices, in life in general, and she was known in that way. I was a bit more of a rogue. I was, uh, a little bit more mysterious. There was probably a sort of, you know, hint of mischievous, of, um- Spontaneity? Yeah, of playfulness. And, and there's an idea in psychology that we all, that we seek in the other person a part of ourselves that we've lost. And so there was almost that, um, that attraction there, it created that chemistry, it drew us in together. I think she was looking for that excitement and- and in a way, that safe danger. I was actually looking for stability and groundedness. And over time, it- it connected us and brought us together. But over time, a remarkable thing happened, and that is, just like you said, I began to become more like her. I became, became safer. And I actually lost an intrinsic part of who I was. I lost the, the wild child that's in me. I lost the part that's a bit more dangerous, that's a bit more risky, that doesn't always say something which is politically correct. And I became almost like a sanitized, clean version of who I was. And that's not the man that she met. And that's not the man that she fell in love with. And on one level, it- it worked in terms of a stable love; there was reliability, there was dependability, there was relatability. But it crushed the desire, with a slow suffocation of that desire over the last couple of years. And so I believe that one day, she woke up and she sensed that loss of connection, which I also sensed too, and that loss of intimacy, and she was scared. And when the mind is scared, it comes up with thoughts, "Is this it? Am I gonna have to live like this for the next 10, 20 years? Will I ever get that chemistry or that connection back? What if it never comes back?" And when we're afraid, we're then seeking that, that part of ourselves that we've lost. And so it's almost less about the other person and more about us. It's less about turning away from our partner and more about turning away from a part of ourselves. It's less about finding another person and more about finding another part of ourselves in which we feel alive. And I think the affair would have been wildly tempting, wildly exciting. It would have been all the things, it would have given her a lot of the things that we had in the beginning that she missed. And suddenly it was back. And even the structure of an affair is such that you can't have the other person, and forbidden is erotic. And it's set up in such a way that it just perpetually creates desire because it ha- it has to be secretive, it can't be long-lasting for long periods of time. There's continual space. Now, if fire needs air, desire needs space. And we found ourselves in a situation in which we were seeing each other every day. I used to be traveling, I used to be working away a lot more. We had, we'd have pockets where we'd be apart, and in that pocket, even if you're away for a day or a couple of days, there's a sense of loss, on a very micro level, and then a sense of excitement of the person coming back and reimagining that life together. Mm-hmm. And so going back to your point, I did, I changed, and that's on, that's something which I've learned from. I've cha- I changed and I became like a squeaky clean version of me, and- and she ironically ended up turning towards what she'd lost. That something you regret? I could feel regret in the way that I said it there. (sighs) Yes. Yeah, being, being honest, if I could've, if I could've changed... On one level, if I could've changed that, if I'd been aware of that and I'd, and I'd seen it coming, then I would've wanted to- to stay true to who I am. And that's the path I'm on now. And I'd- I'd be curious to hear your thoughts, but I- I want to live in line with my truth. And it's like John 8:32, "The truth will set you free." And I believe that when we're living in line with our truth, it saves you. And whenever we neglect our truth- Yep. ... it destroys you. Yeah. And so if I, if I'd, if I'd been able to s- stay truthful, I think it would've been a very different trajectory. I don't... Because the relationship worked on multiple levels and we, and- and it did, we had a wonderful, um, time together for- for eight years. But it's a little bit like putting a frog in boiling water. It was in cold water and the desire is the frog, it's alive-You don't notice the heat, there are unknown factors-

   3. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:18

      Mm-hmm.

   4. ARDr. Aria1:07:18

      ... that were at play. And it was a dance, it was both of us, there's no... it, we, we both contributed to that situation. I think she wanted me to be that stable, dependable, reliable person, without realizing that on a subconscious level, she actually was attracted to the man that I was.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:38

      Yeah.

   6. ARDr. Aria1:07:38

      And I wanted to make her happy, and didn't want her to be the c- kind of person that creates ten- tension, or, or, or there being too much grit. But actually, tension is what creates fire at the same time.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:51

      Mm-hmm.

   8. ARDr. Aria1:07:51

      And so, the rough edges were a part of who I was, and I didn't need to get rid of them.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:56

      It's so crazy,

6. 1:07:57 – 1:23:00

   My Ideal relationship structure

   1. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:57

      it's almost quite contradictory. The typical narrative you hear about relationships is, especially from, you know, dare I say it, um, women-

   2. ARDr. Aria1:08:05

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:06

      ... in movies and on Instagram, is, there's this conversation around, "Can I change him?"

   4. ARDr. Aria1:08:11

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:12

      And it's, and it seems typically that people want to change, their, th- or they, they hold out hope, or they want to change their partner in some way to make them more like the image they have of that person.

   6. ARDr. Aria1:08:22

      Yes.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:23

      But in fact, what you're describing is the thing that ends up saving the relationship is, A, finding someone that you love for the way that they are-

   8. ARDr. Aria1:08:34

      Yeah.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:34

      ... and you're attracted to for the way that they are. But then both parties having a resilience to change-

   10. ARDr. Aria1:08:39

       Mm-hmm.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:40

       ... um, to some degree. But-

   12. ARDr. Aria1:08:41

       Mm-hmm.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:41

       ... because of that understanding-

   14. ARDr. Aria1:08:43

       Mm-hmm.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:43

       ... that you formed your relationship on the basis of this person being like this.

   16. ARDr. Aria1:08:47

       Mm-hmm.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:48

       And then, but then you say, "Okay, so," (sighs) over time, people change. And in fact, in the last podcast we did-

   18. ARDr. Aria1:08:55

       Mm-hmm.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:55

       ... there's a quote where you said, "Change is the only constant."

   20. ARDr. Aria1:08:58

       Mm-hmm.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:58

       So both of you are gonna change anyway, and you talk about the spiritual, psychological-

   22. ARDr. Aria1:09:02

       Yeah.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:03

       ... change that both p- parties go on. And again, this kind of draws it back to the conversation around monogamy, is, you know you're gonna change anyway. Like-

   24. ARDr. Aria1:09:10

       Mm-hmm.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:11

       ... you 10 years ago versus you now is probably a little bit more stable, and a little bit more-

   26. ARDr. Aria1:09:15

       Yeah, yeah.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:15

       ... you know, solid, and a little bit more rational in your thinking. Um, and because, as you said in the last podcast, change is a constant, how do you form a... how can you guarantee that death will do you part-

   28. ARDr. Aria1:09:28

       Mm-hmm.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:28

       ... when change might do you part first?

   30. ARDr. Aria1:09:30

       Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
7. 1:23:00 – 1:40:42

   Why unhappiness stems from conformity

   1. ARDr. Aria1:23:00

   2. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:00

      Isn't it crazy how much of life's misery and failure and, um, unhappiness stems from either trying to conform to the conventional way-

   3. ARDr. Aria1:23:11

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:11

      ... or the script, as you say-

   5. ARDr. Aria1:23:13

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:13

      ... or trying to fit into or even sometimes answer an invalid question? We talked a little bit about this on the last podcast, where I said, you know, I think so many people live their lives trying to answer invalid questions. Like-

   7. ARDr. Aria1:23:25

      Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:25

      ... what number is orange, is what I said last time.

   9. ARDr. Aria1:23:27

      Yeah.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:28

       And in the same way, you've got, you know, uh, the question, "Are you in love?"

   11. ARDr. Aria1:23:32

       Mm-hmm.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:32

       Presumes a yes just by asking it. I'm forcing you to- to- to say yes-

   13. ARDr. Aria1:23:37

       Yeah.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:37

       ... or no. I'm also presuming that we've agreed upon the definition of in love-

   15. ARDr. Aria1:23:42

       Yeah.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:42

       ... which again is just a fucking maze 'cause no one's ever told me what that is.

   17. ARDr. Aria1:23:46

       Mm-hmm.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:46

       No- you're not born and they go, "Okay," God goes, "Oh, by the way, if you ever feel this, that's love, okay?" And you go, "Okay, got you." Right?

   19. ARDr. Aria1:23:52

       Mm-hmm.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:52

       'Cause I- you know-

   21. ARDr. Aria1:23:52

       Yeah.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:52

       ... and the word is so loosely i-

   23. ARDr. Aria1:23:54

       Yeah.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:54

       "I love peanut butter," or, "I love my dog-"

   25. ARDr. Aria1:23:55

       Yeah.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:55

       "... I love my girlfriend," "I love my wife," "I love my mum."

   27. ARDr. Aria1:23:57

       Mm-hmm.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:57

       And it's like, so what? Is it different type?

   29. ARDr. Aria1:23:59

       Yeah.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:59

       It's such a fucking confusing, complex, nuanced thing, love, and we're forcing it into this yes or no.

Episode duration: 1:36:59