Simon Sinek: The Advice Young People NEED To Hear | E176

1. 0:00 – 1:43

   Intro

   1. SSSimon Sinek0:00

      The single greatest lesson I ever learned in my career, that profoundly changed the course of my life, was- Multiple time bestselling author. Third most watched TED Talk of all time.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:09

      The return of Simon Sinek.

   3. SSSimon Sinek0:11

      Thank you very much. Last 30, 40 years, we've doubled down on, "How do I find love? How do I find happiness?" We've doubled down on selfishness. But now, in a complicated messy world, we haven't been practicing and developing the skills of taking care of each other, and that's what we need now more than ever.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:25

      Do you ever give up on someone?

   5. SSSimon Sinek0:27

      Um...

   6. SBSteven Bartlett0:29

      I have a fear, and I've never expressed this openly. Gen Z are the least resilient generation.

   7. SSSimon Sinek0:33

      They're really good at presenting a confidence that they don't have. This young generation seems less capable to deal with stress than previous generations. That is true. Going from relationship to relationship to relationship, from job to job to job. There's no stigma to quitting. Flash forward five years, and what's gonna happen is an em- an employer's gonna look at them and be like, "I can't take the risk." Everything we're talking about today comes right back to those human skills that we are lacking. How to listen, how to give and receive feedback, how to have a difficult conversation. And the thing we have to deal with more than anything is fear. Fear that is the underlying thing why we don't have honest conversations.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:11

      Let me give you some honesty, then. What is the greatest fear you have about how you're currently living your life?

   9. SSSimon Sinek1:18

      I was very insecure about admitting that I... I was crying, you know, as we were talking about it. That was, that was hard.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:29

       Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

2. 1:43 – 14:17

   What is your why?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett1:44

      Simon.

   2. SSSimon Sinek1:44

      Good to see you again.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett1:45

      Yeah. Good to be here. Um, I- I have to thank you first and foremost. And I- I... Many reasons, you know. I'm a huge fan of all your work, but the conversation we had when we were over in L- LA was received so unbelievably well by the listeners on this podcast. It did millions and millions and millions of downloads in such a short space of time that I had to nag you to get you to come back again when you were here in the UK, so...

   4. SSSimon Sinek2:05

      (laughs) Well, it's nice to be back, and it's nice to do it on your home turf.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett2:08

      Yeah, literally in my home.

   6. SSSimon Sinek2:09

      Literally in your home.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett2:10

      Um, there's so many things I- I wanna talk to you about. But one of the things that I was curious about, 'cause I've been thinking a lot about this in my life, is this idea of our whys evolving.

   8. SSSimon Sinek2:20

      Mm-hmm.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett2:21

      What is your why, and has it evolved over the last decade at all?

   10. SSSimon Sinek2:26

       Uh, so my why is to inspire people to do the things that inspire them, so together each of us can change our world for the better. And it's why I wake up every morning, every day. It is the greatest compliment someone can pay me, when they say to me, "That was inspiring," or, "You were inspiring." Like, that feeds me, you know. Um, and the interesting thing about a why is because it is not... it is objective. A why is the sum total of how we were raised. It's born out of the patterns and the lessons we learn from our parents, from our teachers when we're young. And our why is fully formed by the time we're in our mid to late teens. And you only have one why for the rest of your life. It doesn't change. You ha- you are who you are based on how you were raised. Now, you may not be acting as your true self. You know, people say that to us all the time, you know. "It's like I don't know who you are anymore." You know? But when you are at your natural best, your why is front and center. But we're not always acting at our natural best, and sometimes we make decisions out of selfishness. We cha- we take the job that pays us, that offers us the most money, and turn down the one to work for somebody who would probably be a better mentor. You know, we do these things all the time. And so, you know, can you tweak the words of your why? Of course. You know, but that's, that's semantics. Um, can we find better ways to, to bring a why to life? Yes. That's the evolution. But the why itself is fixed.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett3:48

       When you talk about the why being influenced by the things that happened in our life-

   12. SSSimon Sinek3:52

       Mm-hmm.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett3:52

       ... our experiences, our upbringing, does that mean that our trauma can influence our why for better or for worse?

   14. SSSimon Sinek3:58

       Always for better.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett3:59

       Always for better?

   16. SSSimon Sinek4:00

       Yeah. A why is always positive. Um, uh, and I'll, and I'll give you a real life example of somebody's why discovery that I did. And you know, one of the things I do when I do somebody's why discovery, I ask them about, you know, happy experiences when they were kids. And this person said, uh, "I didn't have a very happy childhood. I had a really bad childhood." And I said, "Okay, so tell me a, tell me a bad memory then." You know? And she talked about a lot of abuse in the household, and a very abusive alcoholic father who would beat her mother and the kids. And she told a story of a repeated pattern of when the father would be drunk and come looking for the kids, that she'd be hiding in the cupboard protecting her brother with her arms wrapped around him, so- to shield her brother. And she goes through this whole story, and at the end, I pointed out to her that she's a protector. That in the- in these traumatic experiences, it was her instinct to, to protect her baby brother, and she's lived her life... If you look at all of the times that she's really thrived and where she's her- her best self, she's usually in a, in a, in a position of protection of other, of other people. And it's where she finds joy, in taking care of other people. And so the, the experiences mold us into who we are, um, and the effects, you know, the impact will be positive regardless of where it comes from. So yeah, I mean, horrible childhood that made her a wonderful human being.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett5:30

       I was gonna use me as an example there to try and rebuttal that somewhat-

   18. SSSimon Sinek5:33

       (laughs)

   19. SBSteven Bartlett5:33

       ... but I remember having a very similar conversation with a very good friend of mine a week ago upstairs-

   20. SSSimon Sinek5:39

       Mm-hmm.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett5:39

       ... who talked to me about their childhood. Their... They've talked about this publicly as well, so I'm not letting the cat out of the bag, but their, their father used to beat their mother up-

   22. SSSimon Sinek5:48

       Mm-hmm.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett5:48

       ... really, really severely.

   24. SSSimon Sinek5:49

       Yeah.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett5:49

       And she was telling me literally just a few days ago upstairs that she... her, her memories of trying to hold onto her dad's arm as it swung for her mother when she was five years old. And when you look at the pattern of what those early experiences have caused, and a few other experiences, she's obsessed with-... with, with helping others-

   26. SSSimon Sinek6:09

       Mm-hmm.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett6:09

       ... and she's, you know, building these amazing businesses. She's unbelievably successful.

   28. SSSimon Sinek6:13

       Mm-hmm.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett6:14

       It's, like, frighteningly successful-

   30. SSSimon Sinek6:15

       Mm-hmm.
3. 14:17 – 19:44

   Do you ever give up on someone?

   1. SSSimon Sinek14:17

   2. SBSteven Bartlett14:17

      I can imagine because of the books you've written and the, you know, the channels you have and the content you produce that a lot of people come to you, um, on a personal level, friends, family, to help solve some of the problems that they're having in their lives. I, I find myself in somewhat of a similar position. Maybe they're not coming to me. Maybe I'm in- inserting myself into the problem to try and solve it because that's my nature.

   3. SSSimon Sinek14:36

      (laughs)

   4. SBSteven Bartlett14:37

      But do you, do you ever f- do you ever give up on someone? Something I've thought about and I'm, I'm reflecting on my friend a little bit here-

   5. SSSimon Sinek14:44

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett14:44

      ... and friends I've had from my childhood who I've, I've l- I remember offering a, a guy. I was like, "I will... If you can just do one month working in a, in Subway," where he was working, "I'll pay for your rent so you can move out of that city-"

   7. SSSimon Sinek14:57

      Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett14:57

      "... and go get a job." He didn't do the one month in Subway.

   9. SSSimon Sinek15:00

      Yeah.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett15:00

       And I... And at one point I go... There's part of me who's like, "I... You know, everyone's solvable." The optimism, the optimistic in me, and the other part of me goes, "At some point, you have to give up on people."

   11. SSSimon Sinek15:09

       Um, y- so the single greatest lesson I ever learned in my career that profoundly changed the course of my life, and it comes right before the, the realization that... And the, and the articulation of why. I learned, um, how to ask for help, and I learned how to accept it when it was offered, okay? And I think that it's not about giving up on someone. It's that it's a... It's that it's a... That helping someone is a team sport. Success is a team sport. And if you find that you're the only player in, in their life when they should be the primary player, you can only be... You can only do the assists. You'll never be the one making the baskets. That's their job, right? But if they won't take the pass, then at some point you stop throwing the ball. And, um, it's not about giving up on people. It's, it's that they have... It's about accountability to take responsibility for oneself. And that... And giving up on somebody is, "Don't ever call me again. You don't take my advice. This is over." Right? That's giving up on someone. For... I think the, the other way to do it is like, "Listen, I, I cannot help you if you cannot be involved to help yourself." And I will want to sit down with them and I will want to... I won't criticize and be like, "You're not doing this. You have to follow my advice. You have to do this. You got to go work at Subway for the week." Like that, that's not what... I want to sit down and understand what the blockage is. There's something else that's the blockage that I can get to, hopefully. But at the end of the day, I will say to them, point blank, "Listen, if you're not going to be involved in this, then there's no point to me being involved. You know, you have to... Like this is a team and I'm the only player here. And so I will always be here. And when you are ready, maybe it's just bad timing. I don't know what's good else is going on in your life and maybe this is not the right time, or maybe I'm a bad fit, but when you are ready, I will still be here no matter what. But you have to call me. There's no more... There's no more me throwing you the ball. Like you're gonna have to call me."

   12. SBSteven Bartlett17:11

       And then they call you and then they say, "It's time."

   13. SSSimon Sinek17:13

       Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett17:15

       In my case, they call me and, and then they say, "It's time. I'm, I'm willing to accept the help." And then the same cycle happens over and over again and you go, you go, you know, five years-

   15. SSSimon Sinek17:23

       Yeah, then, then-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett17:23

       ... of them calling you.

   17. SSSimon Sinek17:24

       Then you... Then, then, then it's... Then they're lying.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett17:29

       But they don't think they're lying (laughs) . They always think this time it's gonna be different. I'm gonna do it on Monday.

   19. SSSimon Sinek17:33

       I mean, like I said, I want to know what else is the blockage. You, you... When there's that kind of repeated pattern, then there's something else. And I think, I think, you know, our mistake in those situations is repeating our pattern, which is, "Okay, I'm gonna give you the same advice. I'm gonna give the same thing. You're gonna do the same thing. I'm gonna tell you the same thing. I'm gonna give up on you. I'm gonna go on..." Like w- we're, we're actually repeating a pattern as well. And so, you know, we know this as entrepreneurs, which is you got to try something completely, completely different. Um, and I think, you know, this is... Goes back to what we were saying a moment ago, you know, which is we, we are, we are not teaching the skills of how to help others. And part of one of the biggest skills of learning to help others is learning how to listen-Most of us are really crap at listening, right? We confuse, um, listening with, uh, hearing the words that were spoken. You know, you're sitting watching TV and, you know, someone who you love is trying to tell you something, and you're like, "Uh-huh. Uh-huh," and you're still watching TV. "You're not even listening to me!" And we turn around and repeat all the words back to them. That's not listening. That's hearing the words that were spoken to you. You... Listening is when the other person feels heard, right? And where you are in pursuit of meaning, not the words spoken. You're not so literal, right? And I think in the cases of, of like your friend, the, the... is to go from an advice giving mode. And th- men suffer from this more than women, which is, we... our intention is to fix everything, right? All we want to do is fix, fix, fix, fix, fix. We see the problem, here's the solution. But sometimes that's not what people need. People need to feel seen and heard and understood. And maybe, just maybe you're going too quickly to fix, and he doesn't feel seen or heard or understood yet. And in this particular situation, and again, I don't know the person, but, um, I would, I would go to an extreme listening. You know, give the kid the opportunity to empty his bucket. Like... And y- there's only three terms you're going to use in the conversation. "Go on." "Tell me more." "What else?" Because there's... It's... It sounds like there's... It's... Whatever you think the thing is you're fixing, it's probably something entirely different. And until you can get to that, um, you're going to give up on somebody who maybe, um... It's just that we had the wrong strategy.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett19:43

       It

4. 19:44 – 26:01

   Is mindset a privilege?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett19:44

      wasn't until these examples surfaced-

   2. SSSimon Sinek19:45

      (laughs)

   3. SBSteven Bartlett19:45

      ... in my life where I had friends asking me for this kind of help that I started to consider that maybe mindset itself is a privilege, one that if you don't a- a- acknowledge and understand, you'll end up giving advice from a very privileged place. You know, you know, I might say, "Well, just work harder."

   4. SSSimon Sinek20:01

      Yeah, yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett20:01

      Or just-

   6. SSSimon Sinek20:02

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett20:02

      Or just, "Cheer up."

   8. SSSimon Sinek20:03

      Yeah.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett20:03

      These kinds of things, uh, uh, come from like a, a misunderstanding that my-

   10. SSSimon Sinek20:07

       Yeah

   11. SBSteven Bartlett20:07

       ... brain is fortunate enough to, to think and be a certain way.

   12. SSSimon Sinek20:10

       Yeah.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett20:11

       Um, but I've never heard someone... people talk enough about this idea that our mindset in and of itself is a privilege and that, you know...

   14. SSSimon Sinek20:19

       That's interesting. That mindset is a privilege. Is that true?

   15. SBSteven Bartlett20:24

       If we think about the ch- early upbringing in childhood then.

   16. SSSimon Sinek20:27

       Yeah.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett20:27

       So that was maybe, you know... Some people have monetary privilege from their childhood. One thing that your parents or your experiences might have given you as a real-

   18. SSSimon Sinek20:35

       Sure, sure.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett20:35

       ... psychological privilege.

   20. SSSimon Sinek20:38

       So let me just think out loud for a second, right? Let's try... Let me try and unpack that. You know, y-... there are m- many stories of people who, when the odds were against them, whether they came from extreme poverty or abuse, rose up to have successful and happy lives, right? And when, when we read about them or talk to them or meet them or hear interviews from them, they talk about mindset. They talk about, "My mother taught..." It's usually the mother. Like, "My mother taught me th- to never be a victim. My mother taught me that I was capable of anything." And so they had a mindset. They... You know, where some people have a victim mindset and then they... That's, that's the life they continue to live. Some people have a mi- a different mindset and it, it can lift them out of what we would consider unprivileged circumstances, right? So, you know, it makes me question then, is mindset a privilege? And w- we both know people that have every privilege afforded to them, you know, every one of them, and yet, for whatever reason, their mindset is the wrong one and they can squander all of that opportunity, all of those advantages that they've been afforded, you know, um, and make a mess. So I, I question whether mindset is a privilege. There are a lot of privileges in, in, in, in life. Mindset, I think, is one of the ones that is, is there for the taking.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett22:04

       I, I, I think about... So I was 18 years old, dropped out of university, shoplifting food to feed myself. And in that moment, I was entirely convinced that I was going to be a millionaire. What did I do? What did I... What did I actively do to-

   22. SSSimon Sinek22:17

       You're... You're just... You're just f- counting your own point that mindset is not a privilege.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett22:20

       No, I'm saying because I think that m-... that I, I have the privilege that that mindset was given to me by my experiences and maybe by my biology. I'm wondering why in that situation if you'd put me and my best friend that I talked about with the subway example in the same situation, one of us would have catastrophized. And me, I just saw it as this wonderful stepping stone to the point that I went around my house videoing my despair, videoing my dire situation, opening the fridge, there's nothing in it. My first page of my diary on Facebook notes, which I kept, says, "I'm keeping this diary because a pr- TV production company have asked me to-"

   24. SSSimon Sinek22:49

       (laughs)

   25. SBSteven Bartlett22:49

       Bullshit. I lied to my own diary because I... And I look back and go, "This kid was sure-"

   26. SSSimon Sinek22:55

       Yeah.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett22:55

       ... that he was getting out of here.

   28. SSSimon Sinek22:56

       Well, I, I mean, I played tricks and games with myself as well, you know. Um, I mean, I remember... I mean, some of them are hilarious. But I, I did the same thing, you know. And, and I s-... I, I go back to the concept of why, which is, which is... It's the experiences we had when we were young that formed us into who we are. It wasn't the shoplifting alone. It was your parents. It was your friends. It was your teachers. Like-

   29. SBSteven Bartlett23:19

       Is that a privilege?

   30. SSSimon Sinek23:21

       (laughs) I mean, at what point... (laughs) Everybody has a why and everybody's why is affirmative, you know. And, and so like I told you about the abuse story, you know, something really positive and someone really positive came out of that trauma. Um, so, you know, (sighs) it... I'm struggling to ca- u- use the word privilege to mindset because what you're saying is anyone... that anyone who's had any kind of luck or turnaround or has privilege, where anyone who hasn't and has failed, it's because of their lack of privilege. Like, there's too many other factors involved in that, in those, in those comparisons to, to, to oversimplify it and call it privilege. I'm sure there are privileged components sometimes involved in that, for sure. But-You know, when we're, when we're, if we're s- strictly talking about mindset, I, I, I, I think it's a, it's... I'm not sure. I don't think so. I- it doesn't s- because the control of our minds is the one thing that we own. It's the one thing that is not... Like, we, we can change the way we view ourselves and how we treat others. Um, and I think what's important, and it's a hard conversation, right? I think one of the things that's important is I think we have to have love in our lives. It's from someone, you know? Like, even people who, like, I have a friend who came from a very abusive household. Um, he, he found his grandmother stabbed to death, and the knife was so deep that she was attached to the bed, like that's how bad it was, right? Um, and yet he had a coach who believed in him. And so, I think, yeah, I think to have someone believe in us, to have one person see a spark in us, helps us recognize that we, it helps us see the spark in ourselves. You know? Uh, it just, I think it takes one, uh, only one person, whether it's a friend or a coach or a parent, a boss sometimes, you know, who says, who takes a liking to us. And almost all of us, almost all of us, can remember one person in our lives where it's a coach or a teacher who took us under their wing and saw something that we didn't see. Uh, and every single successful person on the planet has that person. But I think most of us do. Most of us have somebody who, who, who saw something in us and w- we are who we are in part because of that person.

5. 26:01 – 37:03

   The impact of covid in the work place

   1. SSSimon Sinek26:02

   2. SBSteven Bartlett26:02

      Having someone in our lives, um, kind of links back to something you were talking about earlier about trying to be less individualistic in our approach to-

   3. SSSimon Sinek26:08

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett26:08

      ... to our lives and our careers. Lots of your work, and I, I was on your video subscription library, and lots of your work has that as a through line-

   5. SSSimon Sinek26:14

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett26:14

      ... about connection and people and teams, and-

   7. SSSimon Sinek26:16

      Yep.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett26:17

      ... (clears throat) um, (smacks lips) in the, in the backdrop of the remote working world we're living in-

   9. SSSimon Sinek26:22

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett26:23

       ... (smacks lips) um, I guess my first question would be, how do you think that this post-COVID world-

   11. SSSimon Sinek26:29

       Mm-hmm.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett26:29

       ... has been impacted in terms of connection, community, teams, and that unity that s- uh, should be on the bottom level of our Maslowian hierarchy of needs?

   13. SSSimon Sinek26:37

       Mm-hmm. Well, I mean, obviously it took a step back. (laughs) You know, um, though there are, again, I always think of things in terms of balance, right? And cost. So it's not good or bad, it's both, right? And so let's weigh both. Of course, we have freedom of schedule now that we didn't have. We have freedom to live wherever we want, which we didn't have. We have freedom to pick our kids from school or go to the dentist where we used to have to ask permission or take time off. We have that freedom now that we didn't have. Um, we have, for people who are, for people who are, um, introverted, m- they like that they can get their work done in the privacy of their own home. You know, there are many advantages to remote working. Um, the sharing of ideas is much more difficult, like a brainstorming. Like, really, really hard to do in a virtual scenario, because it's hyper polite, right? You can't interrupt somebody as easily. Like when, when you have a real brainstorming, it's messy, it's loud, you step on each other's words, you interrupt each other, you have an idea, you're like, "No, no, no, no!" And nobody cares. It's the m- it's the mess, it's the joy of it, right? In an online scenario, ugh, it gets... you literally can't hear people if everybody's talking at once.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett27:48

       Mm-hmm.

   15. SSSimon Sinek27:48

       And you're constantly apologizing, and so, "Your turn." And it- you don't have that wonderful energy. I, and so I think brainstorming's suffered. Um, and then the obvious one, which is, um, which is for a lot of people, and I think it e- it dramatically affected younger people more, um, but for, for all of us, y- y- you know, w- when you're done with work, you go out with your friends for a bite to eat or at the pub, and you bitch about work, and you bitch about your boss. Totally healthy. And you, and you do it in the, with, with the friends. Uh, whether it's a good job or a bad job, it doesn't matter. You have a, you, you have a s- a place separated from work that's your friends that you go and get it all out, right? Super healthy, and you feel supported and loved and heard and all that good stuff. That went away completely. Completely. And so what ended up happening, and again, if you didn't have a family, if you were living alone, it's, y- all these things just get more and more exaggerated, right? So, um, what ended up happening was, and again, especially young people but for a lot of other people too, is we started looking to the people... We spent more time with people now at work on the f- on Zoom with them all day and sometimes into the, into the evening. We now started spending more time with these people, and we didn't have somebody to go out with afterwards. And so we started looking to work to be that therapeutic outlet, right? And so, what so many people did is first of all gossip starts to swirl a lot more, because we're now venting and bitching to each other as opposed to our friends, right? So especially if somebody's young or susceptible, like, gossips can, can take off w- much quicker, which is very b- uh, dangerous to a culture. But what, what I've, what I've seen is that we find one empathetic person, uh, the good listener on the team, right? And we call them up and we bitch about our job and we bitch about our boss and... But then it keeps going. Like, "I don't know what I do," "I don't want" "I don't know what to do with my life." You know, "I hate my boyfriend," "I hate my girlfriend," da, da, da. "I don't know if I should break..." And all of a sudden you're dumping all of your life's problems on somebody from work who just happens to be a good listener. And what we're doing is we're increasing the stress on that person. So we s- suffered it in our company and I've heard it from many other companies which is those people, those empaths? They're quitting. And if you ask them, "Why are you quitting?" They go, "'Cause I'm burnt out." And you're looking at their workload and be like, "I, I don't understand like how you're burnt out." They're burnt out from taking on all of everyone else's stress because they're empathetic. Everybody else's stress becomes their stress, right?

   16. SBSteven Bartlett30:12

       Mm-hmm.

   17. SSSimon Sinek30:13

       That's the problem with this, which is w- and it's good that some of like, as COVID eases up, like going out with our friends and having that...... that safe space to vent away from work is really important. So in a cultural standpoint, it's very hard to control for that. Like, I can't interrupt it, I can't tell them they can't. You know, they don't want to go to s- their boss to talk about those things, but what, what is again, particularly young people, but, uh, o- others as well, but particularly young people, they're, they're recognized that there are boundaries at work, and you've, by dumping on one person that they should take on all your problems, and they listen, and they listen, and they listen, and they listen, and sometimes they give bad advice, but they listen and they listen, we're doing a great disservice to that other person to just make ourself feel better for a few minutes.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett30:58

       I've... It's one of the first times in my life that I've started to think again about culture design, and it's, and it's funny because I ran a business post-COVID for seven years. We had almost 1,000 people. I then left in the middle of COVID, and now I'm launching businesses after COVID, and it seems that not all of the rules apply, and a lot of that's because of comparison now. So that a modern employee is comparing the working culture that they're seeing on TikTok-

   19. SSSimon Sinek31:24

       Right.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett31:24

       ... and LinkedIn-

   21. SSSimon Sinek31:25

       Right.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett31:25

       ... to their own, and it's almost as an employer, we're competing with a false TikTok social media narrative that is, um... And people never really know what they actually want, I think, as it relates to culture, even me.

   23. SSSimon Sinek31:37

       Mm-hmm.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett31:37

       So when, if you ask someone what they want from their working culture-

   25. SSSimon Sinek31:40

       Mm-hmm.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett31:40

       ... would it meet their fundamental needs? Probably not.

   27. SSSimon Sinek31:43

       Yeah.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett31:44

       Um, so my, my question to you is, how are you, on a practical level, what changes have you practically made or believe are necessary in a post-COVID world that you wouldn't have maybe stated in a pre-COVID world, if any?

   29. SSSimon Sinek32:01

       (laughs) Let me come at to it- let me come at it from a s- slightly-

   30. SBSteven Bartlett32:05

       Mm-hmm.
6. 37:03 – 57:19

   Gen-z are the least resilience generation

   1. SSSimon Sinek37:03

      they get more.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett37:03

      You know, one of my fears at the moment, which is perfectly linked to what you're saying-

   3. SSSimon Sinek37:06

      (laughs)

   4. SBSteven Bartlett37:06

      ... is I have a fear, and I've never expressed this openly, so this is the first time, so don't all come for me at once. I have a fear that Gen Z are the least resilient generation, um, that I've ever seen. And a lot of it... and this is, sounds so stupid and not evidence-based, but if you look at what TikTok is telling this generation work is-

   5. SSSimon Sinek37:25

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett37:25

      ... and there was a video that went viral on Twitter the other day out in Silicon Valley where it shows like a Facebook employee at one of the big tech companies. She arrives at work in the morning. She takes photo of a latte. Oh, there's free muffins. She goes over and has the free muffin. It shows her on her TikTok literally doing like 30 seconds of work, then she's out doing some, like, pottery-making class that work have put on. She comes back to the desk, does another 30 seconds of work, then she's off to a work social.

   7. SSSimon Sinek37:47

      Mm-hmm.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett37:47

      And I, I reflect on the storms-

   9. SSSimon Sinek37:52

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett37:52

       ... that my father went through at work.

   11. SSSimon Sinek37:54

       Mm-hmm.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett37:54

       And I kn- I just know so deeply inside of me that there's no way some of these younger Gen Z people could weather such a storm-

   13. SSSimon Sinek38:03

       Yeah.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett38:03

       ... without quitting, um, report- doing a long LinkedIn post, uh, to criticize their employee then quitting, employer then quitting, and I just, I just fear that Gen Z... When, when I'm hiring people that are in that generation, I almost need to, to go to an extra length just to check that they can cope with a high-intensity culture where demands might come on a Saturday-

   15. SSSimon Sinek38:25

       Mm-hmm.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett38:26

       ... 'cause the world doesn't stop on Saturdays and Sundays.

   17. SSSimon Sinek38:28

       Mm-hmm.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett38:29

       Uh, so I wanted to get your take on that.

   19. SSSimon Sinek38:31

       Um, so let's examine both sides, right? Let's, again, let's, let's think of it as what's the balance and what are the costs, right? Um, it is a generation that already was starting to ask these questions, but COVID forced the rest of us to ask these questions too, which is, what is the definition of work, right? Like, what does a full-time job mean? And these, these are unanswered questions. So I don't have an answer as to what the future of work is because it's... Right now, everything is in flux, and we don't... things are... have not landed yet, right? So what is the definition of a full-time job? If I don't come to work... The definition used to be I come in at 8:00 or 9:00, and I leave at 5:00 or 6:00. That was the full-time job. Now, how much work I did between those hours, you know, it was, it was face time. And we know that because we've all had jobs where we stuck around until 7:00 so we got face time so our boss liked us, right? We've all done it, right? But face time is not a thing anymore. And so I have a full-time job, and I'm offered another full-time job, and I took it. And we've seen... we see this, like employees who have like... have productivity issues, and then they say that they're burnt out, and like, "I know how much work you have. You shouldn't be burnt out." U- Do they have a second job? And why shouldn't they have a second job?Well, we pay them benefits. So what? Like, as long as they're getting their work done, do we care when? People all have side hustles. Even people who've, who've got full-time come to work, everybody's got some sort of little side hustle. So the definition of what full-time employment is, is, uh, is up for, is up for debate.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett39:56

       Mm.

   21. SSSimon Sinek39:57

       And I think young people feel, in particular, that, "Why shouldn't I? It's my time. I can do what I want with it." Or "I only work 40 hours because those are my, those are my limits. Respect my boundaries," right? Um, and, uh, the problem is, is, is I think all of it is so literal, which is, yes, boundaries are important, but the edges of the boundaries are fuzzy, right? And it's not like, "I don't work on Saturdays." "Well, I, I agree with you. I don't want you working on weekends. This one weekend, I really need your help to finish this project so we can get it out the door." Or, you know, just, "I'm... I, I don't take meetings after 5:00." "I agree with you. I think we should have that life balance, but today, I just need you to work till 6:00 to get this one project done." And to recognize that... You know, so one of the things they're getting right is that we're married to work, and we take our phones on holiday, you know, we take our computers on holiday with us, and that work has ultimate say on our time. I agree with you. That should be... we should... that should go the way of the dodo. But the extreme is not to put these hard lines everywhere and say, "I don't do this." As an aside, the irony is, you know, they demand that we respect their boundaries, and yet they seem to step on every other boundary about bringing, you know, emotional professionalism at work and dum- dumping all of my problems onto my colleagues, which is, n- emotionally unprofessional. It's like, that's a boundary you can't cross.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett41:17

       Mm-hmm.

   23. SSSimon Sinek41:19

       Um, uh, but there is good evidence to your assertion that this young generation seems less capable to deal with stress than previous generations. That is true. Um, they are good at curating... You know, they've grown up in an Instagram, Facebook, you know, TikTok world where I'm really good at showing you the life I want you to think that I lead. And so they're really good at presenting a confidence that they don't have. They s-

   24. SBSteven Bartlett41:45

       B- but-

   25. SSSimon Sinek41:45

       ... they soun- they sound like they have all the answers when they don't.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett41:47

       But then I see you presenting that life to me if you're a fellow Gen Z-

   27. SSSimon Sinek41:50

       Yeah.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett41:50

       ... and I go, "W- what? My, my life's stressful and difficult, and my... I have to work really late, and you're having a frappuccino choc latte, latte whatever-"

   29. SSSimon Sinek41:59

       Yeah.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett41:59

       "... at 3:00 AM doing pottery lessons. I need to quit."
7. 57:19 – 1:13:00

   Monogamy, struggling relationships

   1. SBSteven Bartlett57:19

      our history as sapiens, or homo sapiens or whatever-

   2. SSSimon Sinek57:22

      Yep.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett57:22

      ... it appears that we weren't with one- one partner.

   4. SSSimon Sinek57:24

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett57:25

      We were with multiple partners.

   6. SSSimon Sinek57:26

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett57:26

      We've... Now live in this society where we're-

   8. SSSimon Sinek57:28

      In ours, yeah, I would say. Mm-hmm.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett57:29

      ... told to be with one partner. Um, is that natural? Is it human? Does it work? The stats seem to suggest it's not really working so well.

   10. SSSimon Sinek57:37

       I mean-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett57:37

       If I bought a TV in 50%... And they said, "Oh, by the way, there's a- 50% of these are going to break."

   12. SSSimon Sinek57:42

       Yeah.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett57:42

       I wouldn't buy the TV.

   14. SSSimon Sinek57:43

       Right.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett57:44

       I'd maybe, you know, rent one.

   16. SSSimon Sinek57:46

       Right. (laughs)

   17. SBSteven Bartlett57:48

       (laughs)

   18. SSSimon Sinek57:48

       That's funny.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett57:50

       (laughs)

   20. SSSimon Sinek57:51

       Uh, Esther Perel, who's wonderful, if you don't know her work, uh, you know, she talks about the changing definition of monogamy. Monogamous used to mean "I'm in one relationship for my whole life." Now monogamy means, "I'm in one relationship at a time." Right? So, even that definition has changed where monogamy, and people who consider themselves strictly monogamous, have 15 monogamous relationships.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett58:19

       (laughs)

   22. SSSimon Sinek58:19

       Right? Over the course of a ten- "How many close..." "I've had six close, you know, relationships."

   23. SBSteven Bartlett58:25

       Mm-hmm.

   24. SSSimon Sinek58:25

       They were all monogamous, right? So, these- these definitions are- are evolving anyway, right? That's number one. Number two, I like that we are having conversations about the health of relationships like we're having conversation about the health of work, and these things have always existed. The difference is, is now the stigma of talking about them seems to have dissipated, at least in the United States where I live. Like, it's amazing how many people are talking about open marriages, open relationships, polyamorous relationships, consensual non-monogamy. Like, I don't even know what all the differences of all these words are, if I'm honest. Like, they... It's... There's so many words that seem to mean similar things. I don't understand the nuances. But the point is, is like, it's amazing to me how many people are raising the question of what is a healthy relationship, and I think one of the things that boils down for me is, it goes right back to what we're talking about, which is, it base- it's based on both parties, and they both get a say. And so if you say, "I want to live this kind of lifestyle," and you're upfront about it, and somebody says, "I'm cool with that," then great. But if you lie and say, "I want to have this kind of... I want to be strictly monogamous," but you don't really because you like the person a lot, and you think that if you tell them that you want a different kind of relationship, you're going to lose them. Like, we're... It's... It... The relation- the mis- conversation we have are largely borne out of fear, you know? "If I tell her what I really want, she won't like me and then I won't get another date." That's true. That is- that is a possibility, but if I tell her exactly who I am and what I want, and she likes me for who I am, then isn't that better? And I think it's the same thing that we're just talking about work. So, I don't think it's right for us to say, "We should be strictly anything," because some people want one kind of relationship. Well, so let me... Let's rephrase that. Both people in that relationship want that kind of relationship, and both people in the other kind of relationship both want that kind of relationship. Then we just have to respect that we have different points of view about what brings happiness, as long as you're happy and it's con- and it's consensual, I- I- I think we're done. And usually the problems arise when somebody had... Most of these decisions, most of these problems are borne out of fear. Fear of loss, right? Insecurity in a relationship, jealousy for example. This is the other thing, um, that friend I was telling you about.... who-who's super open and honest about her-her life. Sh- I was talking to her the other day, and she says, "I'm jealous." She says, "I'm-I'm having jealousy, and I'm-I'm trying to figure out where it's coming from." And what I found so fascinating about it is she treated jealousy as a feeling, like happy, sad, angry, where in most monogamous traditional relationships, jealousy is usually an accusation.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:15

       Mm.

   26. SSSimon Sinek1:01:16

       Right? "I saw you look at the barista that way." Right? And jealousy is born usually out of fear, and hyper-protective, you know, possessive is born out of fear, fear of loss, right? And what I found so fascinating was she didn't blame her partner for her feeling of jealousy. She wanted to understand where her feeling of jealousy was coming from. It was a feeling, right?

   27. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:42

       Mm-hmm.

   28. SSSimon Sinek1:01:43

       Um, and not an accusation.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:45

       Mm-hmm.

   30. SSSimon Sinek1:01:45

       And so, I think the same is it- I, what we're t- all of this, whether we're talking about work or personal relationships, everything we're talking about today comes right back to those human skills that we are lacking, and I hate the term soft skills. Hard skills and soft skills, we talk about, right?

Episode duration: 1:45:03