Testosterone Expert: The Truth About DAD BOD & Why Women Find Fathers More Attractive!

1. 0:00 – 2:33

   Intro

   1. SBSteven Bartlett0:00

      You've discovered something about the brain I think is quite surprising.

   2. DSDr. Darby Saxbe0:03

      So we found that in fathers the brain is actually shrinking, and I'll explain why. But also there are studies that find that both men and women who report having had more kids have markers of a younger looking brain age. And then also typically men when they do this show about a twenty-five percent drop in testosterone. The next studies of single women have found that, you know, if you show them a series of body types, the Dad Bod is the most popular.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett0:29

      And that's proven by science. So if I go out and get a Dad Bod, you're telling me the science says I'm gonna be more attractive.

   4. DSDr. Darby Saxbe0:34

      Yeah, go for it.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett0:34

      I'll see what my fiancée says. The other thing that's worth talking about is [censored] . Have you done any studies on that?

   6. DSDr. Darby Saxbe0:40

      Yes. That is one of the most robust findings in parenthood research, and my lab found actually that-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett0:46

      Wow.

   8. DSDr. Darby Saxbe0:47

      So I've always been really interested in families and becoming a parent is one of the biggest transformations that you can experience. But I'm concerned about the declining birth rate, and I think that we've managed to market it as an undesirable choice.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett1:01

      According to the CDC and Pew Research data, the US total fertility rate just hit an all-time recorded low.

   10. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:07

       Yeah, I mean, the transition to parenthood can be really challenging. You are sacrificing yourself. It can be very isolating. You're losing your sleep. But becoming a parent, you are benefiting from this sense of connection and purpose. You will rediscover your priorities in a way that will ultimately bring a lot of value.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett1:24

       So if all goes well, next year I will be a dad, and I would like you to give me some advice on becoming a father based on all the research that you have.

   12. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:31

       So great fathers are made, not born. There's a lot you can do.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett1:33

       I'm gonna write it down.

   14. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:34

       Love it. So first-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett1:38

       This is super interesting to me. My team give me this report to show me how many of you that watch this show subscribe, and some of you have told us, according to this, that you are unsubscribed from the channel randomly. So favor to ask all of you, please could you check right now if you've hit the subscribe button if you are a regular viewer of the show and you like what we do here. We're approaching quite a significant landmark on this show in terms of a subscriber number. So if there was one simple free thing that you could do to help us, my team, everyone here, to keep this show free, to keep it improving year over year and week over week, it is just to hit that subscribe button and to double-check if you've hit it. Only thing I'll ever ask of you. Do we have a deal? If you do it, I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll make sure every single week, every single month, we fight harder and harder and harder and harder to bring you the guests and conversations that you wanna hear. I've stayed true to that promise since the very beginning of The Diary of a CEO, and I will not let you down. Please help us. Really appreciate it. Let's get on with the show. [upbeat music]

2. 2:33 – 6:30

   Role Of Fathers In Parenting

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:33

      Dr. Darby Saxbe, you've discovered something about the brain that I think is quite surprising to a lot of men and women as it relates to what happens to a man's brain when they become a father. Um, and I've got the report here in front of me, but I have a model brain over there. Could you explain to me what exactly it is that you discovered?

   2. DSDr. Darby Saxbe2:52

      Yes. So we found that in fathers, and this is similar to what's been observed in mothers, the brain is actually losing grey matter volume, so it is shrinking. So if I had stronger hands, I could probably squish this brain and make it look tinier.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett3:07

      Mm-hmm.

   4. DSDr. Darby Saxbe3:08

      But the parts of the brain that are shrinking the most are in what we call the mentalizing network, and that's a part of the brain that helps us understand other people's feelings and intentions. Those areas are kind of concentrated around the midline of the cortex, which is kind of what we're seeing here. And then you also see volume reduction in the visual areas, which is the back of the brain, which is really important for understanding when you look at an infant's face, what kinds of emotions it's trying to tell you. And so we see changes to those parts of the brain in new dads. In moms, we see changes to these same parts of the brain. We also see changes in moms to what's called the subcortex, which is this part of the brain that kind of controls our gut feelings and our sense of reward and is really strongly linked with our hormones. So moms are kind of changing all across the brain. Dads are mostly changing in this top layer, the cortex, which kind of controls our higher order thinking, reasoning, and executive functioning. And that tells us something about fatherhood, which is that fathers choose to engage in parenting. It's a sort of cognitively mediated investment that dads are making.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett4:19

      What does that mean?

   6. DSDr. Darby Saxbe4:20

      So if you think about a, a mom who's been through nine months of pregnancy, she is flooded with hormones when her baby is born, and she has a really high investment in the baby's survival. Just thinking about the number of calories that it takes to sustain a pregnancy, it's thousands. And, and so there's a very h- high floor for maternal investment, and moms are undergoing plasticity all across the brain that reflects that. In dads, there's a tremendous amount of cross-cultural variability. So there are cultures in which dads participate in childcare and are very hands-on with babies from the moment of birth. There are cultures in which there are prohibitions against men picking babies up.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett5:06

      You don't pick babies up in the first year in some cultures.

   8. DSDr. Darby Saxbe5:09

      You don't pick babies up because it's considered unmanly.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett5:11

      Okay.

   10. DSDr. Darby Saxbe5:12

       So there's a tremendous amount of variability, and dads calibrate their investment according to what the culture says and what the context looks like. If mom becomes unavailable, dad is often needed to step in and provide more of the care. And so this sort of top layer of brain changes reflects that, you know, dads are modulating their investment depending on what they're learning from the environment. And the word that biologists use for this is facultative. So a facultative adaptation is an adaptation that is optional but extremely useful. You could think about an animal that walks on four legs suddenly having something really important to grab and switching to walk on two legs so that it can use its hands. Hands are really useful for that animal. Fathers are really useful for humanity.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett6:09

       But are you saying they're optional?

   12. DSDr. Darby Saxbe6:10

       But they vary depending on situation. And I don't wanna say that fathers aren't important. They're incredibly important. There are dads who are primary caregivers and even sole caregivers of children. But dads vary, and they vary depending on what is needed for children to thrive in their specific local context.

3. 6:30 – 9:29

   What Happens To The Brain When You Become A Father?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett6:30

      And a woman's brain shrinks as well, but it shrinks a little bit more.

   2. DSDr. Darby Saxbe6:34

      Yes. It covers more of the brain.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett6:36

      Mm-hmm.

   4. DSDr. Darby Saxbe6:36

      And it also shows a larger across the board volume reduction. And I should explain volume reduction, we often think about deficit, mommy brain, you're forgetting things. Volume reduction is not a bad thing. What it means is that the brain is actually working more efficiently because it's building better connected pathways and better channels for communicating information.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett7:00

      Is it accurate to say that the brain is focusing?

   6. DSDr. Darby Saxbe7:04

      Yes, exactly. So it's reshaping in a way that enables more efficient communication. It's learning, it's consolidating. So it's kinda like if you think about the director's cut of a movie that has lots of interesting extra scenes and characters, and then you watch it in the theater, and it's like this lean, mean two-hour cut.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett7:25

      Mm-hmm.

   8. DSDr. Darby Saxbe7:25

      Right? Like, many of us prefer the theatrical release 'cause it's easier to follow.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett7:30

      And by getting rid of certain parts of the brain, that means more energy can be used in the other parts of the brain. Is that broadly accurate?

   10. DSDr. Darby Saxbe7:37

       Exactly, so that we're better able to focus on what matters. And when we become parents, what matters is our children and the inputs they're giving us.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett7:47

       The, the interesting thing is the way that you described the part of the brain that the man loses when they become a father made it seem like they're losing empathy.

   12. DSDr. Darby Saxbe7:56

       No. They're actually improving in their empathy-

   13. SBSteven Bartlett8:00

       Oh, okay

   14. DSDr. Darby Saxbe8:00

       ... because they're becoming more efficient processors of social information. So the fact that where we see the biggest changes are in these, what we call mentalizing social cognition networks, tells us that those networks are really important for dads to use when they become parents, and they're getting a lot of practice putting those networks into, into use.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett8:21

       I thought you said that section of the brain shrunk.

   16. DSDr. Darby Saxbe8:23

       Yes, because-

   17. SBSteven Bartlett8:24

       So how-

   18. DSDr. Darby Saxbe8:24

       ... the brain is becoming more efficient.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett8:27

       Oh.

   20. DSDr. Darby Saxbe8:27

       So it's losing all the extra pathways, and you're sort of building a super highway for that specific social information.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett8:35

       Sounds a bit counterintuitive-

   22. DSDr. Darby Saxbe8:36

       It does

   23. SBSteven Bartlett8:36

       ... 'cause I imagined that my brain would grow when I get better at something.

   24. DSDr. Darby Saxbe8:40

       You would, but in this case, the brain is actually shrinking, and I know it, it sort of feels like a puzzle to wrap your head around, but it actually does reflect that the brain is working better.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett8:52

       And is there a relationship between how hands-on the father is and the amount of shrinkage that happens in their brain?

   26. DSDr. Darby Saxbe8:59

       Yeah, and my lab found that relationship. So when dads told us before birth that they felt more bonded to their unborn baby, when they wanted to take more time off after work, and when they told us three months after birth that they enjoyed their babies more, they felt more connected and bonded to them, and they were spending more time taking care of their babies, they had more profound brain shrinkage. All of this seems to support the contention that the shrinkage is really adaptive, and it's enabling men's adjustment to parenthood.

4. 9:29 – 11:42

   Why Testosterone Drops When Men Become Fathers

   1. SBSteven Bartlett9:30

      Is there any other biological changes that take place when someone becomes a father?

   2. DSDr. Darby Saxbe9:34

      So we also see changes to men's hormones.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett9:37

      Okay.

   4. DSDr. Darby Saxbe9:37

      I talk about this in the book. Men typically show a drop in testosterone, and-

   5. SBSteven Bartlett9:43

      I've got a, I've got a big thing here.

   6. DSDr. Darby Saxbe9:44

      Yeah, let's talk about testosterone. So typically, men, when they're hands-on as fathers, show about a 25% drop in testosterone, and some of the best studies of this have been done longitudinally in the Philippines. Before we had longitudinal studies, people said, "Well, maybe lower testosterone, men are just choosing to become fathers." And so looking across time lets us tease that out and see is there something about fatherhood that's actually changing testosterone. And so when you look across decades, you find that testosterone is typically pretty high before pregnancy happens, and it's adaptive to have high testosterone. You know, testosterone's been studied a lot in birds. It's also been studied in rodents and in other mammals. You want high testosterone at the start of breeding season when it's time to maximize your chances of producing offspring. You wanna compete. You wanna build status. You wanna fight off your rivals. High testosterone is your friend. Once you've accomplished your reproductive goal and you've caused a pregnancy and you want your offspring to survive, you wanna be investing and nurturing that new baby. And this is what we saw in the men in the Philippines, that as they were spending more time taking care of kids, they showed a sharper drop. And, and then you typically see some rebound when the baby is getting older. And again, this is not unique to humans. We see it all over the animal kingdom.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett11:16

      So during the pregnancy, something, some chemical tells my body-

   8. DSDr. Darby Saxbe11:21

      Yeah

   9. SBSteven Bartlett11:21

      ... that I need to make less testosterone-

   10. DSDr. Darby Saxbe11:23

       Yeah

   11. SBSteven Bartlett11:23

       ... even though the baby's not here yet.

   12. DSDr. Darby Saxbe11:24

       Yeah. It might just be your proximity to your pregnant partner.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett11:27

       Interesting.

   14. DSDr. Darby Saxbe11:28

       Yeah. Our lab found expectant dads and expectant moms had correlated levels of testosterone during pregnancy, and the more strong that relationship was, the more dads showed a drop in testosterone after birth.

5. 11:42 – 15:59

   Should Men Be Worried About Lower Testosterone?

   1. DSDr. Darby Saxbe11:42

      But I wanna caveat 'cause I think a lot of men are really concerned about the idea that testosterone might drop, and I think we have a really strong narrative right now that testosterone sort of like equals successful masculinity.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett11:54

      Uh-huh

   3. DSDr. Darby Saxbe11:55

      And masculinity is not about a particular hormone. It is about a body that is responsive to our goals and that sets us up to meet the demands of our environment. And so having a biology that fluctuates across the lifespan as our reproductive strategy shifts is really adaptive. We wanna be flexible, and that doesn't always mean maxed out testosterone. So high levels of testosterone actually decrease our sperm count, and they are bad for our immune system.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett12:29

      I think some men might be concerned that dropping testosterone might make them worse in the gym, or it might make them less ambitious or less able to pursue their goals in life. Is there any truth to that?

   5. DSDr. Darby Saxbe12:39

      There's definitely a link between testosterone and men's, you know, muscle mass and their motivation, their drives, but these are not one-to-one relationships. So the human hormone literature is messy, and a lot of these are weak correlations. So testosterone doesn't necessarily equal success at work, for example. And high testosterone can get in men's way in-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett13:05

      Mm-hmm

   7. DSDr. Darby Saxbe13:05

      ... in multiple ways. So there are links between men's testosterone levels and, um, relationship satisfaction in the couple relationship. So my lab did a study where we found that men who had relatively higher testosterone after their baby's birth had, uh, partners who were more dissatisfied in the relationship and reported more intimate partner aggression. So the dads themselves reported more parenting stress. So there's a little bit of a mixed bag of high testosterone, and what it looks like you want is to hit a sweet spot. You don't want testosterone levels that totally crash. My lab has also found that when testosterone is really low after a birth, men have higher postpartum depression symptoms. You don't necessarily want testosterone levels that are sky high either-

   8. SBSteven Bartlett13:52

      Mm-hmm

   9. DSDr. Darby Saxbe13:52

      ... because that can cause problems in your intimate relationship, and it can make it hard for you to switch into nurturing and parenting mode. So the men who seem most successful in our study were men who had mid-range testosterone levels that could be flexible and that could adapt to different life changes.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett14:11

       And am I right in thinking that the more time you spend hands-on as a father in those studies that they did on men, the lower your testosterone will go?

   11. DSDr. Darby Saxbe14:20

       Yeah. So the longitudinal work in the Philippines found that when men spent more time changing babies, doing hands-on care, sharing a sleeping surface with babies, they had more of a testosterone drop. So the testosterone, the hormones are responsive to the context and to what we're doing. But testosterone does rebound, you know, after birth. So it's not necessarily the case that testosterone is gonna bottom out and it's gonna stay low forever.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett14:51

       You know, you said a second ago that men that had crashes to their testosterone during the pregnancy and thereafter, um, had a high likelihood of experiencing postpartum depression themselves.

   13. DSDr. Darby Saxbe15:01

       Mm-hmm.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett15:02

       Does that-- Are you implying that that means that there's an ideal amount of time and hands-onness that a father can spend with their child to make sure their testosterone hits that mid-range point?

   15. DSDr. Darby Saxbe15:12

       Yeah. It's a, it's a really good question. I mean, I, I don't know that we know for sure if there's, like, a dose of parenting involvement that sort of lends itself to an ideal amount of testosterone. It's hard to optimize your way out of these natural changes. I, I don't wanna discourage dads from being hands-on with their kids because they're worried they're gonna pay some kind of physiological tax. I think it's more like make sure you're protecting your sleep, which we know is linked with overall health. Make sure you're getting time to exercise and to socialize, you know, to participate in activities that bring you joy. Like, those are ways to help mitigate your risk that I think will be more successful than trying to hit a particular hormone

6. 15:59 – 19:20

   What Fatherhood Can Change In A Man’s Personality

   1. DSDr. Darby Saxbe15:59

      level.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett16:00

      Uh, my brother is a year older than me, and he has, um, three young kids under the age of seven-

   3. DSDr. Darby Saxbe16:06

      Mm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett16:06

      now. Um, they were actually just here. They've just left. But, um, I noticed a remarkable difference in him when he-- when his wife, Julia, got pregnant.

   5. DSDr. Darby Saxbe16:15

      What'd you notice?

   6. SBSteven Bartlett16:16

      Just a, a total shift in what he wanted out of life.

   7. DSDr. Darby Saxbe16:19

      Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett16:20

      And so before growing up, I remember, um, one day seeing him on the computer figuring out which job would pay the most money, and he was very, very smart. He, I mean, he is very, very smart. And he picked-- He sort of orientated his career towards the job that would make the most money.

   9. DSDr. Darby Saxbe16:33

      Mm.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett16:34

       And then he was successful. He went to LSE, got the job, um, and then shortly after graduating university, met someone. They got pregnant unexpectedly.

   11. DSDr. Darby Saxbe16:44

       Mm.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett16:44

       And I watched my brother go from someone who was, like, really striving for material goals-

   13. DSDr. Darby Saxbe16:49

       Yeah

   14. SBSteven Bartlett16:50

       ... to someone who s- suddenly placed the material goal immediately after, "How do I retire and spend the maximum amount of my t- time with my kids?"

   15. DSDr. Darby Saxbe16:58

       Yeah.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett16:59

       His kids are number one above all-

   17. DSDr. Darby Saxbe17:02

       Mm-hmm

   18. SBSteven Bartlett17:02

       ... anything else, and that's something I admire a lot about him. But the most remarkable thing as someone that's not gone through that transition, 'cause I've not had kids yet-

   19. DSDr. Darby Saxbe17:07

       Yeah

   20. SBSteven Bartlett17:08

       ... is just watching how profound the change was in him in terms of his stated goals and ambitions.

   21. DSDr. Darby Saxbe17:14

       Yeah.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett17:14

       Like, what is this?

   23. DSDr. Darby Saxbe17:15

       I'm so glad you said that, 'cause that's something I heard from so many of the fathers that I interviewed for the book, is that you experience this profound shift in your values and your priorities. And a lot of men, you know, if you survey parents, you say, "What are the most meaningful priorities in your life?" Men are just as likely as women to say, "My kids."

   24. SBSteven Bartlett17:36

       Mm-hmm.

   25. DSDr. Darby Saxbe17:36

       And I think fathers increasingly are recognizing that the parenting role is really central to their self-concept. And, you know, like, we're in a culture where I think it can be hard for men to find a sense of meaning and purpose and connection to other people. Being a parent can, can give you that sense of meaning and purpose.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett17:56

       Mm-hmm.

   27. DSDr. Darby Saxbe17:57

       And so, you know, I think that's a really importantFraming around, you know, your testosterone level might change or your brain might shrink. Like, things that maybe sound a little scary and negative, but they're in the service of this larger goal, which is building a more meaningful life. And I think, you know, like, a message to men and also to women, to moms and to dads, is anything that's worth doing is hard. Being a parent is really hard. You know, you are sacrificing yourself, you're losing your sleep, you are getting extra wrinkles. Ask me how I know. But you are benefiting from this sense of connection and purpose that, you know, it sounds like your brother has been totally transformed by. And I think we're, in a lot of ways, like, selling young men on this message that you should be optimizing your bank account and your body fat percentage, and you should be out there hustling as much as possible. And I think that can be a little bit of a hollow message because what we keep learning again and again from the longevity studies is that the quality of men's relationships is the best predictor of their wellbeing in old age. So men with healthy marriages, men who have positive relationships with their kids, those are the men who age well. Not necessarily the men who've maxed out on, you know, riches or the perfect body fat score.

7. 19:20 – 21:50

   The Upsides And Downsides Of Parenting

   1. SBSteven Bartlett19:20

      It is, it is... It's really a remarkable thing because when you-- as you look forward into becoming a parent, you often see the sacrifices you'll have to make.

   2. DSDr. Darby Saxbe19:30

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett19:30

      You hear about, "Okay, you're not gonna sleep as much as you used to." You'll hear about, um, the anxieties of being a parent and loving something so much more than yourself and all these things. But that sort of profound psychological, biological, hormonal shift, you kind of just have to believe in it.

   4. DSDr. Darby Saxbe19:45

      Yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett19:45

      People, like, tell you about it as if it's like a re- you know, almost like a, like almost like a religion. I say that because you have to have faith that the, the profound upside will be, um, worth the very obvious cost that you see parents, you know, the sacrifices they have to make.

   6. DSDr. Darby Saxbe19:59

      Yeah. I think that's exactly right 'cause I think a lot of the downsides are really visible.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett20:03

      Yeah.

   8. DSDr. Darby Saxbe20:04

      Like, we've all been on a plane with a crying kid, and we've seen the frantic parent trying to calm them down.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett20:08

      Mm-hmm.

   10. DSDr. Darby Saxbe20:09

       We've all seen a tantrum in the grocery store, right? Like, you... That, that stuff is right in your face. But the upsides are sort of invisible.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett20:16

       Mm-hmm.

   12. DSDr. Darby Saxbe20:16

       You know, just like the joy of seeing your child's face as they discover something new or, you know, getting to snuggle late at night and feeling this sense of closeness that you've never had, right? That, like, love that's bigger than yourself.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett20:29

       Mm-hmm.

   14. DSDr. Darby Saxbe20:29

       And I think it's important to speak about the benefits as well as the downsides because we humans crave connection and, you know, we crave care. And I think becoming a parent is an opportunity to provide care on a scale that's hard to find in other ways.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett20:49

       I also want to hear from you about how the mother's brain changes through pregnancy and beyond.

   16. DSDr. Darby Saxbe20:56

       Yeah.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett20:56

       'Cause Julia, so my brother's wife, she was here as well, and she's remarkably different now that she's had these three beautiful children. And I was asking her last night, 'cause she was in s- the sort of corporate world before, and I was saying, "You know, on, when they grow up and they leave home," which again is probably the worst thing you could probably say to a mother who has three young, beautiful children-

   18. DSDr. Darby Saxbe21:14

       Yeah

   19. SBSteven Bartlett21:14

       ... and who's already, like, anxious that someday they're gonna fly the nest. I was like, "What, what, what will then be in the place of these three kids in your life? Would you want to go back to, like, the corporate world, or do you want to do something else? And how has it reordered your sense of meaning?" But tell me, how does the mother's brain change?

   20. DSDr. Darby Saxbe21:29

       Yeah. The mother's brain changes really profoundly as well. Moms are losing about two and a half percent of their brain volume from before pregnancy to after birth. Dads, in our studies, we found they lose about one percent of their brain volume. So similar pattern in similar parts of the brain, but the magnitude is different, and there's more variability in

8. 21:50 – 24:08

   What Happens When We Make Parents Fight?

   1. DSDr. Darby Saxbe21:50

      the dads.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett21:50

      And how did you conduct these studies? Like, what was the methodology?

   3. DSDr. Darby Saxbe21:53

      So we recruited a bunch of first-time parents. These were, uh, all couples that we recruited during pregnancy.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett22:00

      Mm-hmm.

   5. DSDr. Darby Saxbe22:01

      Our only rule was that you had to be cohabiting, and you had to be planning to continue cohabiting after the birth because we really wanted to capture the dads and get their experience, you know, being in proximity to their babies. And so we brought them into the lab. We asked them every question we could think of. We sampled their blood, their saliva, their hair. Uh, we had them fight with each other on camera. We scanned the men's brains. And then about six months after their baby was born, we brought them back into the lab, blood, saliva, hair. This time we got a breast milk sample. We got a sample of baby poop. And we had them fight again, and we scanned the dads' brains again.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett22:41

      You had them fight again?

   7. DSDr. Darby Saxbe22:42

      We had them fight again. We wanted to see how do couples communicate with each other, and does that change across the transition to parenthood, and also what communication styles are gonna predict better couple-level adaptation to becoming parents.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett22:59

      How did you get them to fight? I need to make sure I don't do that.

   9. DSDr. Darby Saxbe23:01

      So we gave them a whole list of different topics. We said, "These are topics that couples commonly argue about. Which are hot button issues for you and your partner?" And so we had both the mom and the dad fill these out independently, and then we went through, and we saw what are the issues that both people are endorsing. And we said, "We want you to talk about this issue. Don't hold back. We're gonna give you 15 minutes. Sit in this room." And we, you know, watched them talk through it. They weren't, you know, like, punching each other, but the conversations were often contentious because they were talking about issues that were frequently objects of conflict.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett23:38

       Mm-hmm. Okay. And what did you discover?

   11. DSDr. Darby Saxbe23:41

       So we discovered that when couples fought more negatively with each other, they subsequently reported more difficult birth experiences. And it's interesting 'cause birth is a time in which moms need a lot of support, and the partner's often a primary person who's in the room providing that support. So when couples have, you know, sort of like a, like a toxic, difficult relationship, that can really color mom's experience of

9. 24:08 – 27:45

   Why The Birth Experience Can Shape Your Relationship

   1. DSDr. Darby Saxbe24:08

      the birth.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett24:09

      Are you saying that because the person that they fought with and don't have a good conflict resolution strategy with, it was in the room they had a bad birth experience, or did something actually happen in the birth experience? Did, like, the, the husband make a comment or like-

   3. DSDr. Darby Saxbe24:27

      Yeah, no, I mean, we didn't record-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett24:28

      Yeah

   5. DSDr. Darby Saxbe24:29

      ... their conversations during the birth, but we actually did get the charts from the hospital or the birth center after the baby delivered, and we looked at complications.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett24:37

      Okay.

   7. DSDr. Darby Saxbe24:37

      We looked at how medically complex the birth was, and we found that when couples fought more negatively and less positively during pregnancy-

   8. SBSteven Bartlett24:45

      During pregnancy

   9. DSDr. Darby Saxbe24:46

      ... during pregnancy, so you know, they're about six months into pregnancy, a few months later, when it's time to deliver the infant, they had more medically complex births, and they also appraised the births as more stressful. So the conclusion is, it's thinking about the couple relationship is actually important when we think about birth. There's been a huge sea change about how we deliver babies. You know, like, it used to be that men were never in the birthing room. So babies were ty- typically delivered with the assistance of a female midwife and female relatives. And it really wasn't until birth moved into hospitals in, you know, the late 19th century, suddenly you had a male physician who's presiding over the birth. And then really it wasn't until the '60s and '70s that dads started to advocate for their inclusion in the birth room. They said, "You know, we don't wanna miss this. We wanna be present." But because historically dads have really not been part of the birth experience, we haven't necessarily thought about the couple relationship as a place to intervene.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett25:51

       Mm-hmm.

   11. DSDr. Darby Saxbe25:51

       If we wanna make birth go more smoothly, we actually wanna be thinking about dad's mental health, and we wanna be thinking about couple's relationship functioning because those things might actually affect mom's psychological experience of birth.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett26:04

       So you're saying don't fight during pregnancy.

   13. DSDr. Darby Saxbe26:06

       Yeah, well, or just find more effective ways to fight. You wanna figure out ways to calm each other down, validate each other, not necessarily, you know, amp each other up and get into these really negative spirals.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett26:20

       I, I guess I wanna pu- push on a point of nuance here because-

   15. DSDr. Darby Saxbe26:22

       Yeah

   16. SBSteven Bartlett26:23

       ... I'm concerned that expectant parents might be looking at each other right now as they listen to this episode. I imagine we've got a lot of expectant parents listening, and they're thinking, "Fuck, we had a fight last week, and we've got the birth coming up in a couple of months."

   17. DSDr. Darby Saxbe26:36

       Yeah. There's nothing wrong with fighting. In fact, I'm a big believer that it's good to air out your concerns and grievances. What we were looking at specifically were negative conflict behaviors.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett26:48

       Okay.

   19. DSDr. Darby Saxbe26:48

       Things like criticizing, showing contempt, um, stonewalling, so, like, refusing to listen to see the other person's perspective. Actually, one of my really smart grad students is working on a project right now where he looks-- he's looking at, like, what is kind of like a magic ingredient that helps couples shift from being negative with each other to being positive with each other-

   20. SBSteven Bartlett27:11

       Mm-hmm

   21. DSDr. Darby Saxbe27:11

       ... during these conflict tasks. He's, like, literally looking at the same task, and he's finding the ingredient is validation. So just conveying to your partner, "I understand what you're saying. I see where you're coming from. I'm right here with you. I get it." Like, those kinds of behaviors make a huge difference because they sort of take, like, a lot of the tension and frustration out of the conversation. As soon as you feel really heard by your partner, you, you know, the wind is a little bit out of your sails for being furious.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett27:44

       I sometimes

10. 27:45 – 31:04

    Are People Waiting For The Perfect Time To Have Kids?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett27:45

       worry that a lot of people are waiting for perfection-

    2. DSDr. Darby Saxbe27:50

       Mm

    3. SBSteven Bartlett27:51

       ... before they step into the next season of parenthood. Maybe I'm guilty of this myself a little bit to some degree. I think me and my partner talk about this sometimes, me and my fiancée, about, like, it doesn't feel like there's ever gonna be a perfect time to have kids.

    4. DSDr. Darby Saxbe28:04

       No.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett28:05

       When you look at the nature of my life and her life, you go, "Look, crazy, crazy schedules. Um, there really is no time right now." Um, but I reflect and go, well, everything that I do now, including this podcast, at the time that I fir- did the first episode, there was no time.

    6. DSDr. Darby Saxbe28:18

       Yeah.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett28:18

       But I made the time.

    8. DSDr. Darby Saxbe28:19

       Yeah.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett28:20

       Um, and I, I, I sometimes worry that as, as young people, we are in a culture that is waiting for, um, more perfection than, than is coming-

    10. DSDr. Darby Saxbe28:31

        Mm. Mm-hmm

    11. SBSteven Bartlett28:31

        ... in terms of our romantic partner or our circumstances.

    12. DSDr. Darby Saxbe28:34

        Mm.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett28:34

        And of course, there is a, a fundamental sort of basis of security that everybody needs to be able to bring, um, a, a life into the world-

    14. DSDr. Darby Saxbe28:41

        Mm

    15. SBSteven Bartlett28:41

        ... and often people don't have that.

    16. DSDr. Darby Saxbe28:43

        Yeah.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett28:43

        Um, but I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that.

    18. DSDr. Darby Saxbe28:46

        Yeah, I mean, I had this conversation with my grad school advisor. I said, "I would love to have kids. What do you recommend? When is the right time?" And she laughed, and she said, "There is no right time. You just have to do it. You just have to make it work because once the baby shows up, you'll figure it out." And that was tremendously good advice and, and, you know, led me to start having kids within the next few years after that conversation.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett29:10

        Really?

    20. DSDr. Darby Saxbe29:10

        Yeah. Yeah, and I was like, "Okay, I guess it's time. I'm just gonna go for it. I'm gonna make it work." And it was hard, but we did in fact figure it out. And I think, you know, when you optimize everything and you feel like you need the perfect conditions, I need to own a house, it has to be this many bedrooms. I need, you know, this level of stability. Yes, all those things are terrific, but historically, you know, people had kids young and, you know, often they found that having kids gave them a really strong impetus to get those things together. We used to think about having kids as, like, a cornerstone of a life. It's like a foundation. You know, you do that, and then you sort of build your career and everything else. Now we kinda think of it as like a capstone. It's like your crowning achievement. You've got everything perfectly set, and now it's time to have kids. And I think the problem with that is, first of our, our biology doesn't always agree. You know, we can sort of lose our, our best window in which to have kids. And I also think, like- Having kids isn't just an individual responsibility. We need to be thinking about it as it's a collective responsibility. It's societal. We are an alloparenting species. So what that means, we're, we're cooperative breeders. We raise our kids in community. That's how we evolved. That's, if you look at hunter gatherers, that's how they raised their kids. We are not designed to do this in isolation. And, and I think w- you know, when you think about, like, what does a healthy society provide for parents to reduce stress, right? Like generous maternity and paternity leaves, you know, job protections, childcare. Like, I'm a big believer in having strong policies that make it easier to have kids.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett30:51

        Mm-hmm.

    22. DSDr. Darby Saxbe30:52

        Because I think in the absence of those policies, you feel like it's your job to get everything completely lined up, and that time might never come, especially not in a, you know, tempestuous economy.

11. 31:04 – 35:33

    Why Fewer People May Be Choosing Parenthood

    1. SBSteven Bartlett31:04

       And I think we're seeing some of the symptoms of exactly what you've described there. A landmark 2024 study published in The Lancet projects that by the year 2100, 97% of all countries and territories will have fertility rates too low to sustain their populations. The global fertility rate has plummeted from an average of five children per woman in 1950 to just 2.2 today. According to the CDC and Pew Research data, the US total fertility rate just hit an all-time recorded low of 1.6. This is far below the replacement rate of 2.1 children per couple, I guess-

    2. DSDr. Darby Saxbe31:43

       Yeah

    3. SBSteven Bartlett31:43

       ... re-required to keep the population stable without immigration. CDC data shows total US birth rates dropped yet again by 1% in 2025, falling to roughly 3.6 million babies, continuing a nearly two decade downfall slide since the Great Recession. And lastly, because the fertility rate is crashing in high income nations, but remaining comparatively high in specific low income regions, it is predicted a massive shift in human demographics will take place, and by 2100, one in every two children born on the planet will be born in Sub-Saharan Africa.

    4. DSDr. Darby Saxbe32:21

       Hmm.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett32:21

       It's all quite, um, all quite shocking to hear, isn't it? I think.

    6. DSDr. Darby Saxbe32:25

       Well, I mean it's-

    7. SBSteven Bartlett32:26

       It's, like, inconceivable. I thought we'd, growing up everyone was talking about, uh, too, too many people being on the planet.

    8. DSDr. Darby Saxbe32:30

       Right. There was this narrative of the population bomb, which was this really popular theory in the '60s that we had too many children.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett32:37

       Yeah.

    10. DSDr. Darby Saxbe32:37

        And we needed to, you know, adopt contraception, and we needed to prevent too many children from being born. W- we all took that too literally and maybe over-corrected, 'cause now you have this population drop. And it's concerning because what you don't want is a society with what's called an inverse age curve, which means that you have many more old people than young people.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett33:00

        Mm-hmm.

    12. DSDr. Darby Saxbe33:00

        Because y- n- then you don't have enough caregivers for the older people. You don't have enough people to sustain the economy. You don't have innovators. You don't have, you know, the folks who are sort of building your future. You've depopulated that, and you have a very aging population, and that can create a lot of instability. So I, I think we need to be thinking about, you know, how do we make parenting easier-

    13. SBSteven Bartlett33:27

        Mm-hmm

    14. DSDr. Darby Saxbe33:27

        ... and more desirable for young people, because I think that we've managed to market it as an undesirable choice.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett33:35

        How does, how do we make it easier and more desirable for young people?

    16. DSDr. Darby Saxbe33:39

        So I think part of it is the conversation we're having right now.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett33:41

        Mm-hmm.

    18. DSDr. Darby Saxbe33:42

        Where we're talking about the meaning, the purpose, the benefits that you can get from your relationships with others. I think that we need a cultural reframe around care to raise the value of care. One of the reasons I'm interested in fatherhood is because I think seeing men as talented caregivers kind of unlocks this appreciation we have for the importance of care.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett34:04

        Mm-hmm.

    20. DSDr. Darby Saxbe34:05

        The shift you described your brother undergoing, where he went from transactional, "How can I make the most money?" to, "My kids matter. How can I spend the most time with them?"

    21. SBSteven Bartlett34:14

        Yeah.

    22. DSDr. Darby Saxbe34:15

        I think is a, is a really valuable shift in purpose that, you know, at scale would make societies healthier and more empathetic.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett34:24

        So there's, like, two things I think are, are worth saying here from my perspective. The first is I think it's important that we express the fact that, A, not everybody can have kids because of, you know, reasons beyond their control. I think the second thing is not everybody wants or should, should want to have kids, you know, depending on their circumstance.

    24. DSDr. Darby Saxbe34:41

        Yeah.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett34:41

        Um, and the third thing is that I do feel in my personal circumstances, um, when I think about what I want from my life, again, this is about me, I do feel tremendously positively jealous of his life.

    26. DSDr. Darby Saxbe34:54

        Hmm.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett34:55

        And that's a, it's a strange thing because, you know, he has a couple more gray hairs than me, even though he's only a year older.

    28. DSDr. Darby Saxbe35:00

        Yeah.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett35:00

        So, you know, everything in life is a trade-off. But the, like, deep sense of meaning and purpose that even I experience when those kids are here, like they were at the, my house for the last couple of weeks, and, uh, it's, it's everything seems, yeah, incomparable in, in terms of, like, meaning to these beautiful children.

    30. DSDr. Darby Saxbe35:18

        Yeah. They're just endlessly curious and fascinating and, you know, there's very little you can get from scrolling on a screen that, you know, that, uh, to me is as fulfilling as what you can get from watching a baby learn something.

12. 35:33 – 37:54

    Ads

    1. SBSteven Bartlett35:33

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13. 37:54 – 45:22

    Do Parents Actually Have Healthier Brains?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett37:55

       Am I right in thinking that parents have different brains as it relates to the brain being protected?

    2. DSDr. Darby Saxbe38:06

       Yeah. So there's this really interesting emerging body of research suggesting that being a parent is neuroprotective in late life. So there are studies, the UK Biobank is the biggest, big repository of brain scans from people in their 50s and 60s. And they find that both men and women who report having had more kids have markers of a younger looking brain age. So if you do a machine learning algorithm that adjusts for your chronological age and then, you know, takes what the scans looks like and uses that to estimate what they think your brain age is, you look relatively younger when you report having had more kids. It seems like the greatest benefit is at two or three kids. After that, it kind of levels off. You don't necessarily get a big benefit from having had six kids compared to having had two. But it suggests that there is something about the practice that you get to your social brain and to your empathetic brain that is really beneficial to your, you know, brain plasticity and functioning later in life.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett39:10

       That's quite surprising because you'd think, you know, parents go through a lot of stress having lots of kids.

    4. DSDr. Darby Saxbe39:13

       Yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett39:13

       So you'd, you'd assume that they'd be sleeping less. You'd assume that would be bad for the brain. But you're telling me there's evidence that it's actually protective to be a parent of two or three kids.

    6. DSDr. Darby Saxbe39:22

       Yeah, I think it's healthy to think about the short-term cost and then the long-term benefit.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett39:27

       Okay.

    8. DSDr. Darby Saxbe39:27

       So, you know, like there are plenty of studies that have found that moment to moment parents of young kids say that they're less happy.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett39:36

       Mm-hmm.

    10. DSDr. Darby Saxbe39:36

        They're more tired, they're more stressed, they have more going on. We've talked about the, you know, brain changes, hormone changes. But then, you know, if you look longer in later life, people will report more fulfillment. So it's like you're, you're doing something that's not very fun, it's taxing, it can be very isolating, and yet you're kind of reaping this longer term benefit in terms of the power of those relationships and that sense of connection with other people. That social integration and that practice trying to understand others, that is really beneficial. Like it's a glue for creating good relationships.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett40:13

        What is it exactly about being a parent, though, that's gonna make my brain more protected when I get older? You know, one, one of the theories I had was that because, you know, when those three kids were here, they had me playing all kinds of bloody games. They wanted to play hide and seek for seven hours, and it is somewhat, you know, actually picking them up all the bloody time because there's three of them.

    12. DSDr. Darby Saxbe40:31

        Yeah.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett40:31

        And one of them is eight. I can't really pick her up easily.

    14. DSDr. Darby Saxbe40:33

        Yeah.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett40:33

        The other two, I can get them up, and then she starts complaining that I've not picked her up, so I have to pick her up, and I'm like, "Wow, what a workout."

    16. DSDr. Darby Saxbe40:39

        Yeah.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett40:40

        It is both a cognitive and a physical workout [chuckles]

    18. DSDr. Darby Saxbe40:42

        Yeah

    19. SBSteven Bartlett40:42

        ... when they're around.

    20. DSDr. Darby Saxbe40:43

        Yeah.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett40:44

        Is it that like I'm building up brain reserve because they're challenging me and having tantrums, and they're wanting to play, and they're engaging me all the time? Is that why it's protective?

    22. DSDr. Darby Saxbe40:52

        Yeah. I think it's like Sudoku for your social cognition, right? It's like you're doing crossword puzzles, but instead of like, you know, the sort of practice that you're getting for putting words together, you're getting practice understanding people's minds and intentions and communicating and responding to them and being sensitive to them. And all of that is putting you through a workout, and it's also a full body workout because kids are really embodied.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett41:16

        Mm-hmm.

    24. DSDr. Darby Saxbe41:16

        And there's actually interesting research that dads especially play in these physically demanding, kind of vigorous ways with young kids.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett41:23

        That's exactly it. That was my job.

    26. DSDr. Darby Saxbe41:25

        Right?

    27. SBSteven Bartlett41:25

        My job was to pick them up and throw them as high as I possibly can.

    28. DSDr. Darby Saxbe41:27

        Yeah. And kids love that.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett41:29

        Yeah. And then-

    30. DSDr. Darby Saxbe41:29

        You know?
14. 45:22 – 47:37

    What Does Daycare Really Mean For Children?

    1. DSDr. Darby Saxbe45:22

       as well.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett45:23

       Do you know Erica Komisar? He's been on my show.

    3. DSDr. Darby Saxbe45:24

       I do.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett45:25

       One of the things she says, which has been a little bit controversial, is that she's argued that placing children under the age of three in daycare causes profound separation trauma and elevates cortisol to dangerous levels, so she's quite against daycare.

    5. DSDr. Darby Saxbe45:38

       I, so I politely disagree. I, both my kids went to daycare where they thrived, and I am a big believer in this idea of alloparenting, which is this idea that we collectively raise kids. We are designed to help each other out and share care.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett45:54

       Mm-hmm.

    7. DSDr. Darby Saxbe45:54

       And so the model of single parent, single child isolated in a suburban home is a very weird model in the context of human history. And so I think this idea that, you know, we can't participate in shared care, that kids can't do well in group care k- settings, to me is a little exaggerated. I do think it's very true that it's about timing and when is the right window to, you know, put kids in group care settings. It, it's, you know, ideally when kids can benefit from some social interaction, which is usually a little older in toddlerhood, so, you know, 18 months and beyond. Very young babies often do better when they have a single caregiver. They have a more stable attachment figure that they can bond with. But babies can form really strong attachments with their dads, with a caregiver. It doesn't necessarily have to be the case that mom is the only person that needs to be present for every moment of an infant's life, 'cause I think that model is not terribly sustainable for parents, and parenting stress is really bad for kids. You know, and this goes back to the birth rate conversation. I think we need to be thinking about parenting in ways that are sustainable, that allow us to get help, and we also, you know, if we really think that we don't want kids in a lot of early childcare, we need to support that with universal paid parental leave, which is not available for most parents in the United States. So a lot of moms are coming up against a reality that doesn't fit with what some of the parenting gurus are telling them is the only way to raise their kids, and I think that creates a lot of

15. 47:37 – 49:30

    Why Mothers Become The Default Parent

    1. DSDr. Darby Saxbe47:37

       anxiety.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett47:37

       If you think about the early phases of a child coming into the world, like year one, year two, year three-

    3. DSDr. Darby Saxbe47:42

       Mm

    4. SBSteven Bartlett47:42

       ... is there any differences in when either parent plays a different type of role?

    5. DSDr. Darby Saxbe47:47

       There's a little bit of difference, and it d- sort of depends on, you know, what the parents' styles are and what the kid's situation is. But There's a chapter in my book where I talked with Richard Reeves, who's done a lot of great work on masculinity and manhood, and he, he says he thinks dads should be able to get paternity leave up to their kid's eighteenth birthday. Because a lot of the time dads find that their sort of best relationship with their kid happens later in childhood, even in adolescence. You know, he talked about taking his kids on trips, teaching his sons how to drive. And so I think like dads can kinda come in at different points along a kid's development and provide a lot of value. I think early in infancy, if mom is breastfeeding, it's important for the baby to get that sort of regular access to milk. Um, you know, of course, moms can pump, dads can do feeding, but it is often a source of challenge for couples when a baby's first born and dads feel like mom has a really big biological head start. You know, she has had the pregnancy. She's been able to build a bond with the child. Breastfeeding is like this magical formula that she can give the baby to, um, help soothe. And so I think a lot of dads struggle to find their place in early parenthood in the first year or two 'cause they're like, "What am I supposed to do?" I... You know, it takes a little while for dads to kinda come online-

    6. SBSteven Bartlett49:16

       Mm-hmm

    7. DSDr. Darby Saxbe49:16

       ... as parents. You know, dads need, I think, some space and opportunity to figure things out, and you often get into this dynamic where mom is kind of the default parent in the early years, and dads are waiting for their

16. 49:30 – 52:24

    Maternal Gatekeeping And Weaponized Incompetence

    1. DSDr. Darby Saxbe49:30

       instructions.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett49:31

       When you've gone out on the book tour and you've spoken to both fathers and mothers, what is the like central point of contention that you discover?

    3. DSDr. Darby Saxbe49:38

       It's funny. I was just at a friend's book club meeting, and it was a mix of couples. It was moms and dads, and the thing that they all got into was this concept of maternal gatekeeping and sort of male malingering, which is this like double-edged kinda sword. And so maternal gatekeeping, it's a somewhat controversial term, but it just refers to anytime a mom consciously or unconsciously sorta puts up a roadblock to dads fully participating in parenting. And it could be as simple as the baby's fussy and crying, and mom says, "Hand him to me. You know, I know what to do." But over time, that kinda, kinda spiral into a pattern of mom becomes the authority figure. Dad is seen as like the bumbling, hapless kind of appendage. And, and dads ultimately feel like their contributions aren't valued or, you know, Mom doesn't really want them to have a lot of independent time. Maybe it's 'cause Mom doesn't trust the dad, right? Which is an area where I think having communication and making sure there's trust before the birth is really important. But, you know, the flip side of maternal gatekeeping is what's called weaponized incompetence or husbandly malingering, which is when, you know, Dad, who's a totally competent, let's say, project manager at work, who can handle lots of different spreadsheets and a c- whole workflow, suddenly doesn't know what to put in the diaper bag. Or, you know, when, when we were at the book club meeting, one of the moms was saying their baby was a couple days old. There was a giant diaper blowout, and she had gone out for a ten-minute walk, and her husband called to be like, "What do I do?" She's like, "I've been a parent for exactly two days. That's exactly as long as you. I have no idea. You gotta figure it out." He's like, "But the poop's on the wall." She's like, "I- I'm sorry. You, you can use the wipes." You know, that same husband, she told me later, was in charge of packing lunches, and at a certain point, he said, "Do you give the kids anything but chicken nuggets?" She said, "Well, there's fruit. You can cut up some avocado, you know, like throw stuff in." So I think that is sorta like when dads act like they just have no idea, and it's Mom's job to solve the problem.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett51:47

       Mm-hmm.

    5. DSDr. Darby Saxbe51:48

       And so I think a lot of moms are sort of frustrated with what they see as that dynamic happening. At the same time, I've talked to a lot of dads who said, "I would love to have done more, but my wife insisted on organizing everything, scheduling everything, telling me what to do. I never felt like I got an opportunity to fully step up." So I think that's an area where couples really need to iron some of this out even before the baby comes.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett52:14

       Mm-hmm.

    7. DSDr. Darby Saxbe52:15

       Who's gonna do what, and how are we gonna balance it in a way that we both get some ownership, we both have some opportunity, and we can trust each other?

17. 52:24 – 54:47

    What Really Happens To Relationships After A Baby

    1. SBSteven Bartlett52:24

       Talking about that parents often report is that post-pregnancy, there is a change in their relationship and intimacy. Have you done any studies on that?

    2. DSDr. Darby Saxbe52:33

       Yes. And that is one of the most robust findings in transition to parenthood research is that there is a drop in couple relationship satisfaction often around the birth of a new baby, and it's not surprising. You take two people who are having fun together. You sleep deprive them. You give them a lot of extra responsibility, and then a baby who's crying and demanding that, you know, they get out of bed at multiple times during the night. So you often get a lot of conflict around who's gonna do what, um, you know, who's more connected to the baby, and, and, you know, I think it's one of those things where forewarned is forearmed. If couples know that this is gonna be a risky time for their relationship, they can do more to shore up their communication before a baby's born.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett53:22

       Have you ever quantified how different the relationship is on the other side of giving birth?

    4. DSDr. Darby Saxbe53:27

       We have definitely given lots of different couple relationship questionnaires, and we've measured them, and we've looked at that dip, and we've seen that there is, in fact, a statistically significant drop in relationship quality.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett53:40

       And sex life.

    6. DSDr. Darby Saxbe53:41

       And sex life. Yeah. I mean, because of course, right? Like, you've got an extra person in your bed a lot of the time or near your bed.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett53:49

       Mm-hmm.

    8. DSDr. Darby Saxbe53:50

       And if you have delivered the baby vaginally, there's also a lot of stuff that's sore and might need to get stitched up, and even more so if it was a C-section birth.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett54:01

       And does that at some point Go back to pre-birth levels in terms of relationship satisfaction?

    10. DSDr. Darby Saxbe54:07

        Yeah. So there is a lot of variability in couples' relationship trajectories. So there are some couples for whom relationship quality continues to dip, and often the relationship dissolves. There are also couples who report they have a better quality relationship after having parented together.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett54:24

        Mm-hmm.

    12. DSDr. Darby Saxbe54:25

        You know, there's a richer relationship. Like, I feel that with my husband, like I appreciate him so much because I've seen him negotiate with terrorists in the form of our young children. So, you know, I think like how well couples fare is gonna diverge sort of depending on how well they can kind of muscle through some of those early years.

18. 54:47 – 57:05

    Why Fathers Can Experience Postpartum Depression

    1. SBSteven Bartlett54:47

       Earlier on, you said that men experience postpartum depression, um, after the birth of their child sometimes, and that's quite a unconventional thing to hear.

    2. DSDr. Darby Saxbe54:59

       Mm.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett54:59

       When we think about postpartum depression, typically it's in the context of what the woman is experiencing.

    4. DSDr. Darby Saxbe55:03

       Yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett55:04

       Um, so it's quite interesting to hear that that is a big issue for men as well.

    6. DSDr. Darby Saxbe55:09

       So technically, postpartum depression just means depression that occurs after the birth of a baby. That's what postpartum means. So that term postpartum doesn't necessarily mean that, you know, it's the person that's delivered the baby. It just means this is the time period after birth. And there's some evidence that dads' prevalence rate for depression, so in new dads, it's about twice that of the general population. So if you look at non-fathering men, they have about half the risk of depression as new dads. So there's a big uptick in depression risk. That doesn't mean that every new dad is depressed, and new dads have lower depression rates than new moms, just to be clear. But it's also not a competition. It's not a zero-sum game, and I think there can be a lot of consternation, understandably, from moms who feel like we have fought for the term postpartum depression to be widely recognized by the medical community. We've advocated for this. Now that we've succeeded, men are sort of trying to take it over. And I'm sympathetic to that argument. And a lot of moms have said, "Why don't we call it perinatal depression?" Fine, I think that's totally okay. Perinatal just means around the birth of a baby, and that's legitimate too. But if you think about what are the risk factors for depression, either in moms or in dads, like in, you know, f- the period following a baby's birth, it's a combination of factors. It's multi-determined, it's hormone changes, it's sleep changes, it's identity changes, it's relationship changes, like relationship conflict, changes to, you know, how you show up at work to your extended family. It can reawaken childhood traumas that were unresolved about how you yourself were parented. So all of those things are coming to the fore, and you're preoccupied by what can be very isolating and repetitive care for a young baby, and it creates kind of a perfect storm of mental health risk.

19. 57:05 – 1:01:11

    Can Your Personality Predict Whether You’ll Divorce?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett57:05

       You've, um, you've, you've studied cortisol changes, um, in couples, right?

    2. DSDr. Darby Saxbe57:11

       Yeah.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett57:11

       And how they-

    4. DSDr. Darby Saxbe57:12

       Yeah

    5. SBSteven Bartlett57:12

       ... and how their, their cortisol interacts-

    6. DSDr. Darby Saxbe57:14

       Yeah

    7. SBSteven Bartlett57:14

       ... with each other.

    8. DSDr. Darby Saxbe57:14

       Yeah.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett57:15

       Is there a biological divorce predictor in terms of a specific way a couple's cortisol syncs up or clashes in that sort of first year of parenting that tells you if their marriage is gonna fail before they realize it themselves?

    10. DSDr. Darby Saxbe57:27

        Yeah. So I have looked at cortisol interconnection in my lab between couples, so how cor- cortisol levels become correlated over time. I found that when couples had really strongly linked levels of cortisol, they reported lower marital satisfaction. And you'd think like, okay, they've got more similar hormones. That's probably a good thing. We found the opposite in our lab, and I think it's because you don't actually want to be contagious to other people's stress. When one person is really stressed, it's helpful to have a partner who can modulate that, who can calm you down. So you don't necessarily want to be exacerbating, like amplifying the stress state.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett58:08

        Interesting. This is fascinating.

    12. DSDr. Darby Saxbe58:11

        There are some other labs that have found that especially in a transition to parenthood context, more synchrony in cortisol can actually be a good thing if you're looking from prenatal to postpartum.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett58:23

        But outside of childbirth.

    14. DSDr. Darby Saxbe58:25

        Yes.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett58:26

        So this is interesting for me because I was having a conversation with someone the other day, and she was telling me that she emotionally is a little bit more variant than her partner.

    16. DSDr. Darby Saxbe58:36

        Yeah.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett58:37

        And I was expressing a similar sentiment saying that I think actually the reason why my relationship works with my fiancée, Melanie-

    18. DSDr. Darby Saxbe58:43

        Yeah

    19. SBSteven Bartlett58:43

        ... is because M- Mel is a little bit m- emotionally variant, and I'm kind of the like prefrontal cortex sounding board that kind of brings us back down. [chuckles]

    20. DSDr. Darby Saxbe58:53

        Yeah. Yeah.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett58:53

        So her emotional variance is super useful because she's almost like a threat detector-

    22. DSDr. Darby Saxbe58:57

        Right

    23. SBSteven Bartlett58:57

        ... in every regard.

    24. DSDr. Darby Saxbe58:58

        Love it.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett58:58

        So if our, if our relationship is drifting a little bit or if we're disc- she'll, she'll know first. Whereas I take a little bit like more time to like f- to sort of have empathy to these kinds of like-

    26. DSDr. Darby Saxbe59:07

        Mm

    27. SBSteven Bartlett59:07

        ... shifts in our relationship. She's like very in, in tune.

    28. DSDr. Darby Saxbe59:11

        Mm.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett59:11

        It's like a sixth sense she has.

    30. DSDr. Darby Saxbe59:13

        Yeah.
20. 1:01:11 – 1:03:26

    Why Women’s Ovulation May Be Harder To Detect

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:11

       Yeah.

    2. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:01:11

       Time to have a kid.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:13

       I think so.

    4. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:01:13

       [laughs] Yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:14

       I'm trying. [laughs]

    6. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:01:16

       Good. [laughs]

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:16

       We froze our embryos, and um-

    8. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:01:17

       Excellent

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:18

       ... so we've got them in a freezer.

    10. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:01:20

        Fantastic.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:21

        Which was a, an, an really interesting process. I think this is probably worth spending some time on, because I think I was living under the assumption that, like, in my early 30s I could just sort of decide when to have a kid, and I could just, you know, have sex during that little window they talk about where she's ovulating, and the kids would appear. It's not necessarily how it works-

    12. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:01:35

        Yeah

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:36

        ... turns out.

    14. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:01:36

        No, it's actually a little trickier, and-

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:38

        It's trickier than I expected. [laughs]

    16. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:01:39

        There's actually a chapter in the book where I talk about paternity uncertainty. One of the things that's really unique and interesting about humans is we conceal our ovulation. So that makes us different from a lot of other animals, where when a female is fertile, you know because she changes color, she starts dancing in a certain way, she smells different, right? Like, there are all these really obvious cues, and as a result, males sort of know exactly what window to jump in on. And because we conceal our ovulation as humans, it's always a little bit murky.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:12

        Why do we do that?

    18. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:02:13

        For one thing, it encourages pair bonding, because you can't just as a man, like, just show up, like, the one day that it's time to cause a pregnancy and then take off.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:22

        Mm-hmm.

    20. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:02:23

        So you have to court a woman. You have a lot of, you need a lot of repeated opportunities.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:28

        Oh.

    22. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:02:28

        So if a man actually wants to cause pregnancy, he's much better off sticking with one woman and really investing in that relationship than he is, like, going out every night to find a different lady. We form stable, monogamous relationships because that's actually adaptive for spreading our genetic material, and it also reduces aggression. So there's one theory that it reduces rivalry between women. If you know that one of the ladies in your group is fertile and you have it out for her, you wanna take her out during her fertile period, right? So concealing ovulation actually reduces that rivalry, that aggression.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:08

        Oh, okay.

    24. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:03:09

        Um, it also makes everybody a little bit more invested in babies, because no man knows exactly who's caused which pregnancies, and as a result, everybody has a little bit of an altruistic stake in the future of

21. 1:03:26 – 1:04:23

    How Can You Increase Your Chances Of Conceiving?

    1. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:03:26

       our children.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:27

       Do you, um, I'm not sure if this is an area of research you've covered, but, and maybe I'm asking for a friend here.

    3. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:03:32

       Yeah.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:33

       [laughs] Do you know what increases the probability of conceiving a child? 'Cause I think about this a lot. I, in terms of stress-

    5. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:03:39

       Yeah

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:39

       ... and feeling comfortable-

    7. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:03:40

       Yeah

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:40

       ... and all these kinds of things. Like, I'm often thinking about, like, don't argue with her, keep her safe, make her feel really secure.

    9. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:03:45

       Yeah. I mean, I think those are all good instincts.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:48

        Is there research on this?

    11. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:03:49

        There is research on reducing stress for sure, right? Like, we know that stress makes it harder to conceive. Of course, the last thing you wanna tell someone who's struggling to conceive is reduce stress, because that's so invalidating [laughs] 'cause you're like, "I'm stressed about how hard it is to conceive." Like, don't, you know, telling somebody, "Be less stressed," is frequently not that helpful. But I think your intuition is right that you probably wanna make the environment calmer and safer and, you know, like, you can optimize nutrition. There's a lot you can do, but there's also a lot that is, you know, not up to you, and sometimes more intervention

22. 1:04:23 – 1:05:11

    What Every New Father Needs To Know

    1. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:04:23

       is needed.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:24

       What advice would you have for new fathers?

    3. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:04:27

       This is kinda, like, one of the themes of my book. Great fathers are made, not born. You might feel like you don't have the qualities to become an amazing dad, but it's really about your time, your investment, the practice that you get, and the extent that you care that is gonna shape you. It's gonna build a brain, and it's gonna build a body that will make you a tuned-in parent. You know, give yourself grace. Like, the transition to parenthood can be really challenging, but you can become an expert in your own child, and there is a reward there. You will find enrichment. You will find meaning. You will rediscover your priorities in a way that will ultimately bring a lot of value.

23. 1:05:11 – 1:06:28

    Ads

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:12

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24. 1:06:28 – 1:08:32

    How Should Parents Divide Baby Care?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:29

       Well, you've done so many studies

    2. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:06:31

       Yeah, probably too many

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:33

       What is it, what are the studies that we haven't talked about-

    4. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:06:35

       Oh

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:35

       ... that are most, uh, were most formative or surprising for you?

    6. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:06:40

       We did a study where we looked at couples' plans for how they wanted to divide up baby care.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:45

       Yeah.

    8. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:06:46

       So we gave them this questionnaire that we called a, a who does what, where they were given 10 common baby care tasks, like changing diapers, feeding a bottle, and they indicated on a slider how much mom was gonna do and how much dad was gonna do. And then we brought them back into the lab about six months after birth. We had them do the same scale, and it was really interesting 'cause couples weren't actually great predictors of how much dad was gonna do. So every single couple expected dad would do more before birth than dad was actually doing after birth. And there are a lot of reasons for that. That doesn't mean that anybody's a villain. It just means maybe mom got more time off from work. Maybe she was breastfeeding, and so the baby, you know, she was, she was with the baby more, right? Like, there are a lot of reasons why that is the case. But we found that when dads were doing more, they reported that they were happier in their couple relationship. But one thing we looked at actually was how moms and dads talked about how they wanted to divvy up baby care. We measured how many times did they say the pronoun we compared to when you use the pronoun I, where you're talking about yourself. When you're using we, you're talking about, you know, you and your partner. The more we-ness the dads were showing, the more happy they were in their relationship after birth. So their investment, their willingness to chip in, even if they didn't totally realize all their plans, was still linked with their satisfaction, and that was controlling for how they felt about their partner before birth. And it's a little counterintuitive 'cause you might think, you know, if you get to sit back and relax and your partner is doing more, that's a winning strategy.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:27

       Mm-hmm.

    10. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:08:28

        But it was actually the dads that did more who's told us they were happier.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:31

        If all

25. 1:08:32 – 1:14:03

    What Couples Should Do Before Having Kids

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:32

       goes well, next year I will be a dad.

    2. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:08:35

       I hope so.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:36

       I hope so too.

    4. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:08:36

       Yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:37

       So I've written on this sort of slide in front of me here, advice for Steven.

    6. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:08:41

       Oh. [laughs]

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:42

       And I would like you to give me some advice, some actionable advice on, you know, becoming a father, what I need to do pre, post, during-

    8. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:08:49

       Yes

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:49

       ... based on all the research that you have.

    10. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:08:51

        Love it.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:51

        And I'm gonna write it down.

    12. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:08:52

        Okay. So first, take advantage of the window before birth-

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:56

        Yeah

    14. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:08:56

        ... to work on your communication with your partner.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:59

        Okay.

    16. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:08:59

        Think about how you wanna divide up baby care. You know, a lot of the time people say, "We'll just wing it once the baby comes," and that can be a recipe for frustration 'cause moms feel like they're doing everything, dads feel like they're shut out from care.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:11

        Okay.

    18. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:09:11

        So, you know, have those conversations sooner.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:14

        So have, before the baby comes, have a conversation about how we're gonna divvy up responsibilities-

    20. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:09:18

        Yeah

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:18

        ... and make sure both people are clear.

    22. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:09:19

        Exactly. And think about too, like, what are we gonna do about our extended families? What religion do we wanna raise our kids in? What do we think about education? Like, if you haven't had those conversations about values, have them now, right?

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:32

        Before.

    24. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:09:32

        Because then I think you're gonna ward off conflict that is gonna crop up later on.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:37

        Okay.

    26. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:09:37

        The other thing is, and I would do this before birth too, build up your social support network. A lot of men's primary confidant, their primary intimate relationship is with their partner. After the baby comes, mom is really preoccupied, and dads are like, "What about me?" So, you know, we know when we look at depression research that having a strong social support network is one of the best buffers.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:59

        Mm-hmm.

    28. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:09:59

        So you wanna be thinking, "What are my friendships that I can count on, and who can help me?" We really need community support. So think about, "How can my mom help? How can my friend help?" And maybe, like, you know, your brother's got his own kids. He's too busy to take yours, but he can help in some other way, right? Like, how do you plug the people into your life into what your social support needs might be?

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:24

        I think a lot of people would cite this as being one of the reasons why they haven't had kids yet. Now more so than ever, we don't live in communities.

    30. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:10:32

        Yes.
26. 1:14:03 – 1:16:02

    How To Protect Your Relationship After Having Children

    1. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:14:03

       long-term benefit.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:04

       One of the things that might p- be a little bit absent from this list is an effort towards holding my relationship together-

    3. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:14:11

       Mm-hmm

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:11

       ... with my fiance.

    5. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:14:13

       Also important. I mean, that's part of what you wanna do before the baby's born, right? You wanna be shoring up the communication and having those hard conversations.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:21

       Like the date night thing, you know, like-

    7. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:14:22

       Yeah. Yeah. Well-

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:22

       Date night's probably gonna be the first thing out the window.

    9. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:14:24

       Yeah. That is a, that is a thing that goes out the window.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:26

        Mm-hmm.

    11. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:14:26

        But you know what? One nice thing about newborns is they'll sleep pretty much anywhere. So you know, when our babies were little, my husband and I would just like put the baby in a car seat and go eat at a nice restaurant.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:38

        Mm-hmm.

    13. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:14:38

        You know, it was like the last time we got to do that for a few years, because once they start walking around, they're much less portable.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:45

        Mm-hmm.

    15. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:14:45

        So like take advantage of some of the early baby stuff that you can do to travel and to make sure that you get out.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:52

        That advice was all advice for me.

    17. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:14:54

        Yeah.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:54

        For Steven.

    19. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:14:55

        Yeah.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:55

        Would there be any different advice if my fiance was sat here and you were advising her?

    21. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:14:59

        Oh, that would be fun.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:01

        Yeah.

    23. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:15:01

        Yeah. I mean, I would say that sort of giving yourself grace thing would go double, right?

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:05

        Sure.

    25. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:15:05

        It's like know that Steven is going through a lot, and then you need to know that she's going through a lot. Like her whole sense of self is gonna be in upheaval.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:17

        Mm.

    27. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:15:17

        Because like w- we go through this thing, it's called matrescence. There's also patrescence, which is just the idea that becoming a parent kinda, you know, changes your priorities. It changes your sense of who you are. So she's gonna go through a lot of transformation, as you will. And so sort of like hanging in with each other during that period of transformation is really fundamental. Like sometimes couples can grow apart where dads are jealous that the baby's getting all the attention. He feels left out. Moms are frustrated that Dad isn't doing more to help. Like all of those things can lead to conflict. And you can know that those are gonna be hotspots for conflict, and try to talk your way through them even ahead of birth.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:00

        Darby, what, what's the, um,

27. 1:16:02 – 1:19:14

    Is The Dad Bod More Attractive?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:02

       most important thing we haven't talked about that we should've talked about as it relates to your work?

    2. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:16:06

       Oh my gosh.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:06

       For all the people that are listening now that have gotten this far in the conversation.

    4. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:16:09

       Yeah. Let's see. We didn't talk about dad bod.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:13

       Dad bod?

    6. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:16:13

       That's a fun topic.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:15

       Okay.

    8. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:16:16

       Something we frequently joke about.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:17

       Mm-hmm.

    10. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:16:17

        We think about like Homer Simpson. But it's been found across both animal and human studies that males tend to gain weight when they become fathers.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:26

        Is that just the cortisol and the lack of sleep?

    12. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:16:28

        So it's a mix of all the hormones. It's prolactin, is a hormone we haven't talked much about, but that is rising. Sleep deprivation, um, changes in physical activity, changes in our diet, right, because of stress and some of the dietary choices that we're making. Like I joke in the book, like my husband and I basically ate peanut butter pretzels from Trader Joe's like every day that our kids were babies. So you know, a lot of stuff is happening all at once. It's kind of a perfect storm. And yet, you know, there's evidence even from animal models that you see weight changes around the transition to fatherhood.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:05

        These ones here.

    14. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:17:05

        Yeah. Yeah. These are the tamarind monkeys. So there was a study that looked at tamarind monkeys that were expecting offspring. And, um, it fed them a standardized diet and it compared them to tamarind monkeys who didn't have partners that were expecting offspring. And they found that the expectant dads actually gained more weight even though they were eating the same diet as the comparison monkeys who weren't about to have a baby. And so there were these like body changes that happened even before birth in the male monkeys.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:38

        Why would that be?

    16. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:17:40

        It's probably adaptive. Like if you think about increasing your body size to be more imposing and to better ward off attacks from rivals. And you also want a buffer in case there's scarcity, right? Like you want extra fat. It looks less adaptive in a kinda modern context when we have a very obesogenic environment.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:02

        Mm-hmm.

    18. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:18:02

        And, you know, you can start to see more cardiomet- metabolic risk. But one thing I talk about in the book is women actually like a dad bod. Studies of single women have found that, you know, if you show them a series of body types, the dad bod is the most popular. You know, sort of like a mildly, you know, kind of like, uh, lightly marbled, uh, male torso.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:24

        Lightly marbled torso [laughs] .

    20. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:18:25

        I don't know if you remember like the Olly Murs, the British singer who-

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:29

        Yeah

    22. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:18:29

        ... like did a big tone up at the gym and posted selfies. You know, he had like a 12-pack or something, and all these women online were saying like, "We liked the before picture." So you know, there's something to be said for-

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:41

        Can't fucking win

    24. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:18:41

        ... the reproductive signal of a dad bod. But part of it is if you show women torsos of different kinds of male body types, the, the sort of dad bod is one that women say he's more likely to be a hands-on father. He's probably gonna be more attentive. He's gonna be more caring. And those are things that are really attractive to women.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:02

        And that's proven by science. So if I go out and get a dad bod, you're telling me the science is, says I'm gonna be more attractive.

    26. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:19:07

        Yeah, go for it. Yeah.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:09

        Okay.

    28. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:19:09

        Yeah, worth a shot

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:11

        See what my fiancée says.

    30. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:19:12

        Yeah. [laughs]

28. 1:19:14 – 1:21:08

    What Does Your Childhood Teach You About Parenting?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:14

       How much of your work has been influenced by this?

    2. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:19:20

       Oh, this is my dad. So much of my work. My parents got divorced when I was nine, and my dad became a solo parent to me and my brothers. Um, my parents ultimately worked out a joint custody schedule, so we were one week with my dad, one week with my mom. We switched off every week as I was growing up. And he became a really great dad. Like, he had a major learning curve. He wasn't a hands-on dad. He was like an '80s dad who, you know, showed up for the big stuff. But when he was alone with the four of us, he suddenly had to be the guy making our meals, the guy helping us with our homework, the guy driving us to sports practice. He really rose to the occasion, and I'm still really close with him.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:05

       How do you think that's influenced your, your overarching mission and your focus on, you know, dads and parenting?

    4. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:20:10

       Yeah. So I've always been really interested in families and, you know, they say, like, psychologists are always trying to fix the thing that went wrong in their lives. So I'm probably like as someone who's interested in couples and families wanting to reverse, like, my own parents' divorce. But I also, like, seeing my dad be a great caregiver and then realizing how much parenting research is solely focused on moms makes me realize there's, like, a real gap in the literature. Like, you know, men play a really important role in parenting and I think deserve a lot of recognition and respect for that.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:42

       It's, it's interesting that I'd, I'd never heard before that there's really any changes that took place in a-

    6. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:20:47

       Yeah

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:48

       ... man's brain when-

    8. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:20:49

       Yeah

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:49

       ... a man becomes a-

    10. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:20:50

        Yeah

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:51

        ... father.

    12. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:20:52

        I mean, I think it's not something that gets talked about a lot, which is why I wanted to write about it. But, you know, we are dynamic. We're plastic. We humans adapt, and becoming a parent is one of the biggest transformations that you can experience.

29. 1:21:08 – 1:21:25

    How Divorce Can Affect Children

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:08

       Have you ever done any research on the impact that divorce has on children?

    2. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:21:12

       Not a lot, no, which is ironic 'cause I am a child of divorce, but, um, there is some research about it, and there's definitely some evidence that it can create, create some challenges for kids.

30. 1:21:25 – 1:22:47

    Are Humans Really Meant To Be Monogamous?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:25

       And have you ever done any research on, or do you have a view on whether humans are supposed to be monogamous?

    2. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:21:31

       Hmm. Well, okay, so the best way to describe humans is we're sort of monogamous with benefits. And, you know, you can see that if you look at the difference in our body size. So, like, male humans are a little bit bigger than female humans, but they're not, like, twice as big.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:46

       Mm-hmm.

    4. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:21:47

       So, like, gorillas, male gorillas are way bigger than female gorillas. There's, like, a huge size differential. And, you know, that says that, you know, like, the male gorilla model is one of, like, harem dominance, right? Fully monogamous animals are exactly the same size. Like prairie vole, males and females are almost exactly the same size as each other. They have, like, no size differential. So that's, like, like, real pair bonding.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:14

       Mm-hmm.

    6. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:22:14

       So we're sort of, like, somewhere in between. There are a lot of societies with different models. You have polygamy, which is one man with lots of women. You have polyandry, which is more rare. That's one woman with lots of men. Only a few societies that have that model. But monogamy is actually the most common across lots of different cultures and societies. And I think it, 'cause it's, it brings us some benefits, in part because of the concealed ovulation piece that helps motivate men to be more invested in a single partner, but also 'cause it generally is good for kids.

31. 1:22:47 – 1:24:32

    What Are The Biggest Concerns About Modern Parenthood?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:47

       What are you, um, what are you concerned about?

    2. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:22:50

       I mean, our future as a planet. [laughs]

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:54

       Which part of our future as a planet?

    4. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:22:55

       So I, I definitely am concerned about what we've been talking about, the declining birth rate.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:01

       Mm-hmm.

    6. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:23:01

       I'm concerned not just because it portends problems, you know, in our future societies, but because it, what it signals, I think, about young people's hopefulness for the future.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:12

       Mm-hmm.

    8. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:23:13

       Right? I think when you look at the world and you say, "I don't wanna reproduce, I don't wanna bring children into this world," it to me suggests, like, a, a nihilism and a darkness that concerns me. Like, marriage rates are dropping. Like, young men and young women seem to be on different paths. Part of that is, like, we're in these algorithmic echo chambers where the kind of content that we're absorbing is really different, so you see increasing political polarization-

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:41

       Mm

    10. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:23:41

        ... not just in the US, but in other countries too. It's like there's more adversarial kind of interaction, and I don't think that's good. You know, going back to the idea that having a healthy late life is about building strong relationships and that that's a good predictor of our longevity. I want us to be in a world where we see ourselves as being on the same team as each other.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:06

        Are you hopeful?

    12. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:24:07

        Yeah, I'm super hopeful. I'm a very optimistic person.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:10

        What would have to happen for that to be the case?

    14. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:24:12

        I'm hopeful. I have teenagers. You know, I'm hopeful for them. I think they're gonna take over, and hopefully they'll be wiser than my generation has been. That's them with my husband. That's from a few years ago.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:24

        I was gonna say, this-

    16. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:24:25

        Yeah

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:25

        ... your, your boy's a bit older now, right?

    18. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:24:27

        Yeah, he's 14 now.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:28

        14, okay.

    20. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:24:29

        Yeah.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:30

        Dr. Darby Saxbe,

32. 1:24:32 – 1:28:57

    What Systemic Change Could Transform Parenting?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:32

       PhD.

    2. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:24:33

       Yep, that's me.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:33

       We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for.

    4. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:24:38

       Ooh.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:39

       Question left for you is: people are increasingly distrustful and lonely. If you could flip a switch and make one systemic change to turn the tide, what would it be?

    6. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:24:51

       Oh. To make people more socially connected. Well, I think building a better policy environment around parenting, so I'm a big advocate for parental leave to protect time and space to bond. I think that would be a really positive change for a lot of parents in the US who don't get access to leave.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:11

       What, what... J- as a Brit-

    8. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:25:13

       Yeah, yeah

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:13

       ... you know, I've moved over here, and we, we, we, you know, we're hiring a big w- workforce here in Los Angeles, New York, and around the United States. But hearing about the parental leave policies here is, like, mind-blowing.

    10. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:25:23

        Yeah.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:24

        What is the current parental leave policy in the United States?

    12. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:25:26

        Yeah. So we are a huge outlier compared to the rest of the world, right? So, like, we do not have a universal paid leave. Policy for parents that's at the federal level. There are some different policies at the state level, so every state has slightly different policies. But frequently, what's most available to parents is unpaid disability leave that's provided by the state. It's not available to every parent. If you're a shift worker, if you're a gig worker, if you're at Walmart, you probably don't have access to that paid leave. And as a result, a lot of new moms in the US are back to work within a couple of weeks of birth, which I think is totally bonkers when you think about what does it take to build a healthy society.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:09

        The baseline federal protection is the Family Medical Leave Act.

    14. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:26:13

        Mm-hmm.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:13

        It guarantees up to 12 weeks of unpaid-

    16. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:26:16

        Yep

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:16

        ... leave. Your employer must also maintain your group health insurance during this, this time. So they don't pay you.

    18. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:26:24

        Yeah. Yeah. And that's a big problem because it's expensive-

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:29

        And really expensive

    20. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:26:29

        ... to raise kids.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:30

        It's so surprising that they haven't passed a law, uh, in this direction because it's not a partisan dispute.

    22. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:26:37

        No, that's what's so surprising is that it's one of the best polling issues. It's bipartisan, right? Both Republicans and Democrats say they support leave. I think it's something like 80%-

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:48

        Mm-hmm

    24. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:26:49

        ... of Americans are in favor of it, yet we haven't found the political will to make it happen.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:54

        Well, maybe we need a woman in office.

    26. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:26:58

        Well said.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:27:00

        Or just a man, which-

    28. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:27:01

        Or just a-

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:27:02

        Yeah. [laughs]

    30. DSDr. Darby Saxbe1:27:02

        ... just an empathetic man.

Episode duration: 1:28:58