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James Sexton: Marriage fails 70 percent of the time

Divorce attorney audits 22 years of cases on sex, money, and prenups: 70 percent of marriages quietly fail, yet 86 percent of divorcees remarry.

James SextonguestSteven Bartletthost
May 20, 20242h 20mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:02

    Intro

    1. JS

      All marital problems stem from two things, and that's-

    2. SB

      What about sex? How often is sex the issue in divorce?

    3. JS

      Oh my God.

    4. NA

      James Sexton, the world's number one divorce lawyer, specializing in billionaires, athletes, and celebrities for over two decades.

    5. JS

      Giving him a unique insight into how relationships fail and succeed. There's about a 56% chance that your marriage will end in divorce. Yet 86% of people remarry within five years. But most people have no idea what they are getting themselves into. And a great example of that would be prenups.

    6. SB

      Who gets what when they break up?

    7. JS

      Correct. And the most shocking prenup I've ever seen said that for every 10 pounds the wife gained, she would lose $10,000 a month in alimony.

    8. SB

      10 pounds of weight?

    9. JS

      And that was enforceable.

    10. SB

      Do money issues lead to divorce?

    11. JS

      Oh, it's controversial.

    12. SB

      What's the quickest someone's gone from marriage to divorce?

    13. JS

      48 hours.

    14. SB

      Who cheats more, men or women?

    15. JS

      You'll be shocked to hear it's-

    16. SB

      Have you ever seen violence during a divorce?

    17. JS

      They ran her over four times and stabbed her.

    18. SB

      Jesus Christ. So here's the question then, should we get married? And then do you think love is a terrible idea?

    19. JS

      I think it's insane to love anything, because some day that'll be gone and this thing's gonna break my heart no matter what I lose. But that's not a reason not to love, and I- I think there's something really important there.

    20. SB

      Congratulations, Diary of a CEO gang, we've made some progress. 63% of you that listen to this podcast regularly don't subscribe, which is down from 69%. Our goal is 50%. So if you've ever liked any of the videos we've posted, if you like this channel, can you do me a quick favor and hit the subscribe button? It helps this channel more than you know, and the bigger the channel gets, as you've seen, the bigger the guests get. Thank you and enjoy this episode.

  2. 2:02 – 2:37

    I Am A Divorce Lawyer

    1. SB

      James, I've never spoken to somebody that does what you do. What do you do?

    2. JS

      I'm a divorce lawyer. I'm a divorce lawyer who represents people in contested divorce and custody proceedings in court. So it's, the fact that you've never spoken to someone who does what I do is a good thing. It- it- it means that either you've not married or it means that you've successfully married to the point where you would never end up in my office. By the time someone sets foot in my office, something's gone terribly wrong in their life, because no one ever meant to meet me, no one ever meant to be in my office ever.

  3. 2:37 – 8:51

    How Many People Divorce

    1. JS

    2. SB

      What is the probability that some day I do meet somebody like you and not in this context?

    3. JS

      Well, if you marry, there's about a 56% chance that your marriage will end in divorce. Now, that doesn't take into consideration how many people may consult with a divorce lawyer because they're having difficulty in their marriage, but they choose subsequent to meeting me not to divorce for some particular reason, whether that's they don't wanna part with half of their funds or they've just decided it's easier to stay miserable and with a person, or they're staying together for the kids but they wanted to know what their rights were. So if you marry, the ch- the- the chances of meeting someone like me are- are more likely than not, if we look at it that way, 'cause it's more than 50%. So it's a, it's a high number, you know?

    4. SB

      But if we define failure as all of the other things you've described, that we kind of stay together but we're miserable, or we stay together for some other reason, how, what percentage of marriages on that basis do you think actually fail?

    5. JS

      I mean, if we consider the po- if we consider failure staying together miserable for the children or staying together for financial, economic reasons, and then we add that to the 56% that end in divorce, then, I mean, it would be very hard to track that, but I- I think it's generous to think it's another 20% probably. But- but I mean, think about what that adds up to. That means that you've got, you've got something that fails 70, 75% of the time. That's a, that's a negligent activity, that's a, you know, that's, that is more likely than not to cause significant harm in your life. So I- I- I don't say that to sound like the grim reaper when it comes to marriage. I- I actually really think marriage is a lovely thing and I get misty-eyed at weddings like anybody. Um, and not just for, you know, future business purposes. Um, I- I-

    6. SB

      (laughs)

    7. JS

      ... I- I think, I think the statistic that's even more interesting to me than how many marriages end in divorce or how many people stay together miserable is that 86% of people who divorce remarry within five years. So think about that. Now you've- you've done this thing, it's failed, you've gone through this difficult process of having to undo it, and now within five years, 86% of people remarry. I mean, so that- that tells you how important this is to us as humans, how drawn to this idea, this technology of marriage we are. And- and that, to me, is fascinating, because I- I've often said, like, I'm not sure what marriage was designed, what problem is marriage designed to solve? See, the fact that it takes this long to think. If I said to you, "What- what purpose does this technology, this mug, what does it serve?" Well, that's easy, right? It's hard to drink out of your hands and someone would have to keep coming up and pouring things in our hands. Okay, well, that's pretty straightforward. What- what problem does this solve? Well, that's easy, right? We wouldn't want to get, you know, the ring stains around, we'd get yelled at by our significant other for not using a coaster. So these are easy things. But marriage, something so ubiquitous, that it's assumed, it's assumed if you're dating someone for a few years and you say, "Guess what? We're getting married," everyone goes, "Oh, of course, phenomenal, congratulations. That's great. Of course you're gonna do that. You know, you're making an honest woman of her. Of course."Whereas if you say, "You know, we, we've been together for three or four years, we decided we're not gonna get married." People go, "Oof. What's wrong with this guy? He's got intimacy issues. He's not getting mari-" You know, "What's the problem that you don't wanna get married?" Whereas, rationally, the response should be, you know, "Oh, yeah. We're getting married." "Wha- Are you kidding me? Why are you doing that?" It's like someone saying, "I'm gonna go skydiving." It's like, "Wait, are you crazy?"

    8. SB

      (laughs)

    9. JS

      That's a dangerous thing to do. You know? And it's not e- I mean, listen, skydiving, it's not like there's 75%, 76% of people die w- who are skydiving. So the truth is, like, it, it, it makes very little sense to me that marriage is assumed to be a thing you will do when in fact we, as a species, are so unbelievably bad at it.

    10. SB

      That sort of 86% that then get remarried after-

    11. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    12. SB

      ... divorce, are they then... Have they learnt from their mistakes? Are they better at marriage?

    13. JS

      This time it's different. This time it's different. It's, "This time, I'm really in love. That other time when I thought I was in love, that wasn't it. This time it's different." It really... It's a, it's a, it's a blind spot, you know? And again, where does it come from? You'd have to ask people smarter than me. You know? It could be neuroscience. It could be the realm of a real d- deep social psychology. It could just be a cognitive bias. I have no idea. It could be a delusion brought on by inadequate lighting.

    14. SB

      (laughs)

    15. JS

      You know? But, but the tr- whatever it is, we go, "Oh, yeah. But this one's different." This one... I, I did a prenup last week for a guy who went through the... One of the ugliest divorces I've ever seen in... And that's not hyperbole. Like, I've been doing this for 25 years just to say... So for me to say, "The ugliest divorce I've ever seen," is that's amazing. That's, like, that's a really big d- That's like a Michelin chef saying, "This was the best meal I've ever had." So this guy had a horrific divorce that lasted four or five years. He's remarrying a woman 30 years younger than him who he met four months ago. And when I said to him, as artfully and tactfully as I could, "You know, you've, you've only known this person for a short time and, you know... Have you thought about maybe just, you know, being a little cautious in terms of w- You've seen how difficult a divorce can be. You know, do you think maybe it might be..." He j- I was, "Oh, no. This is n- I've never felt anything like this. I've never been this in love. I've never been so connected with someone. We just get each other." And, you know, there, there... It would be very indelicate and rude for me to say, like, "Snap out of it, man. You gotta get your, like, really... You know, bring your logical brain to this, this equation. Do not bring the part of you that's just filled with romance and has Christmas in your eyes. Like, really, you gotta look at this honestly."

  4. 8:51 – 12:33

    The Dynamics Between Gold Diggers And Millionaires

    1. JS

    2. SB

      Do you see a lot of gold diggers? Do you see a lot of gold digger sort of, um, patterns, i.e. you see someone that's incredibly wealthy, you see someone that's, I don't know, 40 years younger-

    3. JS

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      ... them?

    5. JS

      Yeah. Yeah. I see a lot of that. I mean, I... You know, I'm, I'm hesitant to say gold diggers, because I think that has a, a pejorative, like, built into it-

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JS

      ... that, that, that somehow... I think that, that people bring different things to the table in relationships. I, I, I think love is an economy. And I don't... I'm not saying that in a way that, that devalues love. I think that love is a verb, I think that love is an emotion, and I think that love is an economy. You know, there, there is a, a giving and taking of value. And, and that can be incredibly symbiotic. You know, that can be incredibly healthy and wonderful, that, that, you know, I am way too serious and the person who I'm with is gonna bring lightness and levity to the relationship. And I'm gonna help them be a little more serious, and they're gonna help me lighten up, you know? And I'm hard-charging and hardworking and everything's, like, ten moves ahead, and, and my partner's gonna, like, help me calm down and help me, you know-

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. JS

      ... not be so hard-charging and, and be a little softer and be a little kinder and rest my head and give me a sort of warm place to do that. Like, that's beautiful. We're each bringing something different. So if I'm a powerful, hardworking, financially successful, financially secure man, and I meet a young, beautiful woman who has energy and excitement and who has tremendous gifts but doesn't have the resources to be able to do much with that... You know? Like, she's a talented artist, but, you know, she's busy working, you know, a, a, a thankless, awful job, you know, like slinging cappuccinos, you know, and, and she, she's not able to, in this prime of her life, focus on this thing she's so talented at. And I can say to her, "Hey, listen. Why don't you focus on that? And I have resources, an abundance of them, and I'm happy to share them with you and, and feel like I'm part of your success. And you, in turn, are part of my success because you give me this wonderful respite from the chaos of my work." And, and, like, I don't think that that's a dishonest economy. I don't think that... So, like, to say a gold digger sort of implies, like, "Oh, she's in it for the money." And it's like, "Okay, well, I'm in it for the beauty." You know? So does that mean I'm a horrible, shallow person or is beauty beautiful? Is beauty something you wanna be around? And, and if we're honest about the interaction, how is that predatory? How is that unfair to either of us? You know, if, if we're honest about it... Like, what's harder for me to deal with is when I have a client who is, you know, 150 pounds overweight, five foot seven, um, and, and there is just nothing about him that aesthetically or even personality-wise a woman would go, "Oh, that's my guy." But he's a billionaire, you know? And, and he's got a young, gorgeous woman who's allegedly madly in love with him, and he really believes that it's his personality and has nothing to do with the fact that he's a billionaire or that that is a very small consideration. That feels to me like the worst kind of, of delusion, you know? Whereas...... you could very honestly say, like, "Yeah, we each bring different things to the table. We each bring different things to each other's lives." And then it, yeah, so it is, it is a quote unquote gold digger. But, you know, it's also a man who wants to, to, to buy the company of someone who might not otherwise be interested in him if he wasn't so successful. So I think there's a, there's a give and a take in that relationship.

  5. 12:33 – 17:14

    What's Prenups? And The Legalities Behind Marriage!

    1. JS

    2. SB

      I think that's very fair. Have you, have you seen examples of the, the l- latter example where s- you know, you describe that billionaire where there's n- not many redeeming qualities.

    3. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    4. SB

      Where they're heading towards marriage. They don't yet have a prenup. You're maybe advising them that they should get a prenup and they're not interested because they're so deluded by the belief that the person is interested in their wonderful personality or...

    5. JS

      Yeah. So, so the prenup conversation is a really interesting one because I, I, I do a lot of prenups.

    6. SB

      Yeah, just, just define what a prenup is.

    7. JS

      Sure. A prenuptial agreement is a contract between two people that defines the rule set essentially for their marriage. So, so marriage, when we talk about marriage, you know, people tend to just sort of use the word marriage and they're actually talking about a number of different things. Like in some contexts, marriage is a spiritual commitment, right? It's a religious commitment. It's tied to, in Catholicism, it's a sacrament. In, in Judaism, it's a covenant with God. You know, in Islam it has its own status. So marriage exists as a religious concept. Socially, we have a definition of marriage, right? Like I am married to this person. We have married our destinies to each other. We have agreed that we are each other's person. And then marriage has a specific legal definition and my job as a divorce lawyer is to take that piece apart for someone or to create protections for people who are contemplating entering into that legal status. So like you, you've been to weddings, right?

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. JS

      I'm sure you've never at the end of the wedding said, um, "Great guys, I had a wonderful time. The cake was delicious. Um, I need to see the paperwork. Can I, can I see the license now? Uh, uh j- I just wanna make sure everything was done properly and that there were witnesses." You've never said that. You've never said to your parents, "Can I see your marriage license? I'd like to make sure everything's in order here." That's not how it works. W- we don't do that. So you could go have a wedding and tell people that you're married and never actually legally marry. You could just tell people that you're married. You don't check people's paperwork, like you could just wear a ring if you want to. And similarly, if you don't wear a ring, it doesn't mean you're not legally married. Like you could be legally married and still take your ring off and you're still legally married. If it was just as easy as taking the ring off, I'd be out of a job. So l- marriage is a legal status. That's one of the meanings of marriage and a prenuptial agreement, the way I would describe it is two people deciding that they having picked each other out of eight billion people to choose from in the world are in a better position to make the rules that will govern the economics of their relationship than the legislature would be, than politicians would be. And anyone who's ever been to the Department of Motor Vehicles or who's ever been to, you know, any government agency, very rarely would you interact with a government agency and go, "We should definitely put these people in charge of our, our family life."

    10. SB

      (laughs)

    11. JS

      Like, "They're gonna do a great job. They're, they're really crushing it." You know, like that's not something people... Yet most people who are married have almost no idea what legal rights and obligations were conferred on them by getting married. They, they just have no idea. It's the most legally significant thing they're going to do in their life other than die and they have no idea what their rights and obligations are and those rights and obligations can change. So like politics and the legislature and the way that rules that govern the spousal support rights, child support rights, the division of property, those are subject to change by government change. So for example, in the United States, um, alimony, spousal support, maintenance, whatever we wanna call it, which is a payment a person makes to their spouse when there's been an economic disparity in the marriage and now they're getting divorced, that used to be tax deductible. It used to have no formula. It was at the discretion of a judge. Then in 2016, Trump came into office and he said, "Yeah, I'm not letting it be tax deductible anymore." So completely changed. Now you're already married at this point and now the rules about what governs your marriage have changed. So there aren't a lot of contracts in the world that people could enter into that the terms could wildly change due to circumstances beyond your control and you're still in that same contract. So prenuptial agreements are designed for two people who at that moment have an abundance of affection for each other. If they didn't, then there's no reason that they should be getting married, that they make up a rule set that's going to govern their relationship.

  6. 17:14 – 18:56

    The Perfect Prenup

    1. JS

    2. SB

      And that typically as we see it in movies and such and we hear about it in culture is really deciding who gets what when they break up, right?

    3. JS

      Correct. Now it's hard to say in advance who gets what when we break up sometime in the future because we don't know what we're gonna have-

    4. SB

      Right.

    5. JS

      ... in 10 years, in 20 years. So what do you do? You create structures like you create... You know, I, I refer to the simplest prenup as a yours, mine and ours, which is if it's in my name, whether it's an asset or a liability, it's mine free from any claim by you, free from any obligation to you. If it's in your name, it's yours free from any claim by me any obligation to me. Ours, if it's in our joint names, then we're equally responsible for it if it's an obligation or we equally are entitled to half the value of it if it's an asset. That to me just creating those three buckets. Now here's the problem. You create those three buckets, you both sign off on it and you get married.You can't just set it and forget it now. You actually have to have conversations with this person that you're married to, which theoretically you should be able to do, right? Like, if you've decided, "This is gonna be my primary relationship. This is the person I'm gonna tie my destiny to," you should be able to talk about, "Hey, I just got this big bonus at work. I'm gonna put this much in my sole account, and I'm gonna put this much in the joint account." And then you should be able to say, if you're the other person, "Well, why- why are you putting so much of it in your personal account?" Like, "Are things weird with us or something?" Or is there, you know, have some conversation, again, about why are we marrying? It's a, it's that economy concept, which is, look, what do I owe you if I marry you? I'd like to know

  7. 18:56 – 26:48

    Disagreements Over Prenups

    1. JS

      that in advance. Because people say to me all the time, you know, "Well, I married this person, and, uh, when we got married, uh, he had nothing. He had nothing, and he built his business while he was married to me. And I was very, you know, there for him while he was building it. So therefore, I believe I'm entitled to half the value of that business." Now, that's a logical argument. I don't know that I agree with it, but it's logical. But keep going with that logic, right? So if that was true, and I built this business, and my wife, who was married to me while I was building that business, she helped make that. Okay, well, her mother and father helped make who she is. So I owe them something, right? Like I... 'Cause if they hadn't done what they did, I wouldn't have her. And if I didn't have her, I wouldn't have my business. So how much do I owe them? And you know, now that I think about it, her grandmother definitely influenced who her mother was, which influenced who she was, which influenced what she did for me. So just, can you let me know in advance how far down the chain do I owe people, and how much do I owe them? They can't all get half. So do they get half of the half of the half? Or do I... Like, and- and- and if this is the logic that we're gonna follow, then I would like to know in advance what that is. Because there are no other transactions where... If you went in to purchase a car and you said, "How much is this car?" And they said, "Money." And you said, "Well, how much?" "You know, it's a good amount." Okay, I... Again, we just keep talking in abstractions. I'd like to know what does this add up to? How much is it? You know, and even if you can't make it a dollar number, it's X percent of last year's earnings or, like, give me a formula, something to tie it to, and at least have that conversation 'cause then you can decide, am I gonna sign up for this thing or not?

    2. SB

      You must meet a lot of people who are in a relationship where one of the people doesn't want to have a prenup.

    3. JS

      Yes.

    4. SB

      'Cause I, 'cause I... When I think about having a prenup, I'm with a, a woman at the moment. We've been together for five years. Um, frankly, if I said to her, "I wanna get a prenup," she would be all for it. She would... That's the type of person she is. She'd be all for it.

    5. JS

      Good for you then.

    6. SB

      Doesn't care. She'd be all for it.

    7. JS

      Excellent. You've done well.

    8. SB

      But I can imagine in other relationships, I'd be nervous-

    9. JS

      Yeah.

    10. SB

      ... to even say the words because immediately, you're thinking about how you're getting out before you get in.

    11. JS

      Yeah. Well, and you know, there- there's a lot to that. There's a lot to unpack there. So the first thing I would say is all marriages end. They end in death or they end in divorce, but they all end, right? And so if you said, "I'm gonna get life insurance," it would be foolish for someone who's with you to say, "Wait, are you planning on dying soon?" Like... No, but in the event that I do, I'd like to make sure that things are taken care of in a certain way. And in the event that I do, there's gonna be enough things to be upset and sad about for the people around me so I'd like them to have one less thing. You know, and I- I also know that there's a possibility. I hope I won't, but there's a possibility that I'm gonna die in an hour. So I'd really hope it doesn't happen, but I can't say it's definitely not gonna happen. So divorce, you know, when we look at statistics like that, it's okay to say, "Hey, look, you know what? I hope this never happens. But if it did, what do we owe each other?" You know, "What would you need?" Like, it's not just a conversation about what do I want to keep, what am I entitled to keep? It's also, well, what would, what would you need?

    12. SB

      Have you seen it break down a marriage because someone mentioned a prenup? Have you seen it?

    13. JS

      Yeah, I've seen marriage... I've seen marriages that were scheduled to happen, not happen because the prenup discussion happened. But more often than not, I've seen the threat of not marrying someone because they want you to sign a prenup cause a person to fold in their request for a prenup, which to me is a really bad start for a marriage. So I've had a lot of clients who come in, say, "Look, I- I want to have a prenup. I have a lot of confidence in this marriage. I really love this person, but I would like to, you know, have a prenup in place." And I draft a prenup for them, and it has reasonable terms, and they give it to their fiance, and their fiance says, "Yeah, I'm not signing that. It's not happening." And instead of saying, "Okay, like, then you're choosing for us to not marry. You know, that's okay. But, like, I love you and I'd love to marry you, but this is something that I need in order to feel comfortable with that." Um, they- they just go, "Okay, yeah, nevermind," and they walk away from it. And- and, um... Because they're intimidated. And I think that's a, that's an awful way to start a marriage. Like, I think that's much worse than having a discussion about difficult things. Like, I don't think you would think it's irresponsible, you've been with, with a woman for five years, to say to her, let's say a year ago, or let's say four years ago, to say to her, "You know, we're gonna get in a fight sometime. That's gonna happen. Like, we're gonna disagree about something. It'll probably be my fault. I'll probably say something stupid. I do that sometimes. So when we get in a fight someday, which again, I hope we don't, I'll do everything I can to not ever get in an argument with you, but at some point, something's gonna... You're gonna say something that's gonna hurt my feelings. I'm gonna take it the wrong way. I'll say something, you'll take it the wrong way. Or maybe I'm just an idiot. Sometimes I'll be in a bad mood and I'll say something, or I'll have had too many drinks and I'll say something to you that'll upset you. When that happens..."How do you, how do you like to fight? Like, what's best? Do you need a minute? Like, do you need a minute to calm down? Do you need to, like, sleep on it? Or do you need to, like, "We gotta fix this right now. I can't go to bed angry." Like, "I won't be able to sleep. I won't be able to function." Like, like, do we have to address it right then and there? 'Cause you know the best time to talk about how we're gonna argue? When we're not arguing. You know the worst time to learn how to fight? In the middle of a fight. That's the worst time to learn how to fight. So I like a prenup. I think a prenup can be a very romantic thing, 'cause it's basically saying, "Look, I love you. You love me. We want this thing to work or else we wouldn't be signing up for it."

    14. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    15. JS

      "But in the event it breaks down, you have a right to know what you're entitled to. I have a right to know what I'm entitled to. We both have an interest in making sure that we both have the things we need so that neither of us feels like we're crawling out of this relationship instead of walking out of it." Like, if I lose you, I'm gonna have a lot more to be sad about than my stuff. But, boy, let me tell you, not knowing where I'm gonna live or how I'm gonna pay my bills, that's gonna add a layer of pain and complexity to what is undoubtedly gonna be a really hard situation. So let's take that off of each other. Let's, let's know that... Because I don't ever want the person who lays their head on the pillow next to me to be there 'cause they don't wanna get divorced. I, I would rather that it be that they like having me there next to them, that their life is better because I'm there, that they feel like I bring value to their life and they bring value to mine. Not, "Well, I don't wanna go through all that."

    16. SB

      In that case of that person you referenced there, where they came to you for a prenup. Their partner gave them an ultimatum and said, "Listen, no, I'm not signing that," how do you kind of draw the line between being a lawyer versus, like, a therapist or an advisor? Uh, sort of like a relationship advisor.

    17. JS

      Yeah, I mean, I have to tell you, it's a very seamless... I, I don't, um, I don't think it's easy to distinguish between... We're attorneys and counselors at law. My, I have an undergraduate degree in psychology.

    18. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    19. JS

      And I think I use it as much as I use my law degree, because this is so personal that it's very hard to not give human advice while I'm giving legal advice. And I'm dealing in the clay of, of, you know, human emotion and human, human connection and human frailty and human emotional complexity.

  8. 26:48 – 28:34

    Are Prenups Legal?

    1. JS

    2. SB

      I thought prenups were illegal. I thought they were, like, people went and got them, but they, when it comes to-

    3. JS

      Enforcement?

    4. SB

      ... enforcement, they don't hold up.

    5. JS

      You know, could be true in the UK, but certainly not in the USA. It's, they are, they are enforceable. They are binding. Sometimes they're crazy how enforceable they are.

    6. SB

      Oh, really?

    7. JS

      Like, 'cause, because the nature of a prenup is... As long as it was not what's called unconscionable. Unconscionable is a contract that is so unfair that no fair-dealing person would offer it and no sane person would accept it. So that's what unconscionability is. So you have to be... A contract has to be unconscionable for it to be set aside, okay? Now, I have seen some prenups that were, in their interpretation, unconscionable, meaning, you know, at the time they entered into it, he had nothing and she had nothing, and now they're getting divorced. And under the terms of this, he's going to walk out with $100 million and she's going to walk out with almost nothing. But as long as it was not unconscionable at the time it was made, if it's unconscionable in its performance, it's still binding. So I have seen the outcome of prenups sometimes be shockingly unfair. But you have a right to contract. As long as it wasn't fraud, as long as it wasn't duress or undue influence, or if someone was under the, you know, uh, influence of drugs or alcohol when they signed off on it, it's a binding contract because we believe in, in, in human autonomy and agency and the right to make decisions about your life and your future, so.

  9. 28:34 – 29:59

    The Most Shocking Prenup (Don't Get Fat)

    1. SB

      Is that ex- is example real? And is that the, the most shocking one you've seen in terms of-

    2. JS

      No, the most shocking prenup I've ever seen, which was enforceable, um, had a provision that said that for every 10 pounds the wife gained in the marriage, she would lose $10,000 a month in alimony.

    3. SB

      10 pounds of weight?

    4. JS

      Yes, yes. So, so it, it was a very wealthy man who was wearing- marrying a very attractive woman. But he was very concerned that she was going to become less attractive and he was going to become more wealthy. So his solution to this was in the prenuptial agreement, he wanted a clause that said she would get, if they divorced, she was gonna get, like, $70,000 a month for alimony. But for every 10 pounds she gained from the date of marriage, she would forfeit 10,000 a month worth of alimony. And it was designed to sort of create an incentive that she would remain thin. And that was enforceable, meaning they tried to challenge and set aside that provision, and the court said, "This is a disgusting provision. I don't know why you married this person, but it's enforceable. It's a contract. The two of you signed it, and you had a right to sign it, and you agreed to these rules. And they may be ridiculous rules, but you agreed to them, and you have a right to do

  10. 29:59 – 32:33

    Appearance As A Measure Of Love In A Relationship

    1. JS

      that."

    2. SB

      Do you think that was love?

    3. JS

      Again, I, I think it's a kind of love. I think it's a form of love. I... Is it a form of love I'd be interested in? No, I think it's very shallow in some ways. There's something very honest about it. I mean, you can't argue with the fact that there's something very upfront about it. He was making very clear and putting in writing, "Here's the value you bring to this relationship." You know, "I consider your physical appearance...... vitally important to this relationship. And by the way, don't skip the other side of that equation.

    4. SB

      Yeah.

    5. JS

      She was gonna get $70,000 a month. That's very impressive number. So, you know, I, I think she, she also understood there was a value to be attached to him as well, you know? And, and it's, so it's ... Is it something I would be interested in, on either side of that equation? No. But do I have a right to say to someone, "That's not love"? I, I don't think I have a right to say that to someone. I think that if this is an economy the two of you have agreed on, that, you know ... As a lawyer, see, I- my, my job as a lawyer is not to look ... Like, I don't look at it that way.

    6. SB

      But you must Okay.

    7. JS

      I look at the engineering of it. So, like, if I'm representing her in that transaction, all I can think is, "Okay, so we're gonna want her baseline weight to be as high as possible."

    8. SB

      (laughs)

    9. JS

      So I'm gonna want her to have pennies in her pockets afterward, at the day we sign the prenup, 'cause you'd have to establish a baseline, right? 'Cause if you say, "Gaining 10 pounds," you'd have to establish a baseline weight on the date of the marriage.

    10. SB

      So she was weighed on the day of the marriage? (laughs)

    11. JS

      Well, y- you know, about the date of the marriage. The parties acknowledge that on, on or about the date of marriage, she weighed approximately X pounds. So if I'm her, I want that to be as high as possible. So I'm gonna be putting pennies in my pockets and eating as many cheeseburgers as I can before the weigh-in. Now, we're getting divorced-

    12. SB

      Don't worry. (laughs)

    13. JS

      ... I'm gonna be like a wrestler. I'm gonna be in the sauna-

    14. SB

      (laughs)

    15. JS

      ... I'm gonna be sweating as much as I can, I'm gonna take diuretics, I'm gonna eat nothing but, like, grilled vegetables for a week or two, you know? And I'm gonna, I'm gonna take off every ounce of clothing I can 'cause I wanna minimize my weight. This is why, this is why lawyers don't get invited to parties-

    16. SB

      (laughs)

    17. JS

      ... 'cause that's how we analyze problems. Like, I didn't hear that and go, "What is the nature of their coupling?"

    18. SB

      (laughs)

    19. JS

      I looked at it and I went, "Oh, I could play with that. I could work-"

    20. SB

      (laughs)

    21. JS

      "... I could, I could," whoever I'm representing in that transaction, "I could figure out a way to, you know, kinda make that work."

    22. SB

      (laughs) You become a coach.

    23. JS

      Kind of is. I mean, it, it turns into an engineering question as opposed to a human question.

  11. 32:33 – 37:30

    Prenups With Fidelity & Cheating Clauses

    1. JS

    2. SB

      I heard about this thing when I was reading your book, uh, these, um ... And also watching some of your stuff online that I didn't know existed, which was fidelity contracts.

    3. JS

      Fidelity clauses, yeah.

    4. SB

      Fidelity clauses.

    5. JS

      Yeah, yeah. So it's something people include in prenuptial agreements, and also sometimes in what's called a postnuptial agreement. So a postnuptial agreement, you know, nuptial meaning marriage, pre meaning before marriage, post meaning after marriage. So, if you didn't get a prenup but your marriage, for whatever reason, becomes fragile, maybe someone learns of an affair or maybe you're starting to have difficulties with each other, but you don't want a divorce, but you'd like there to be some clarity as to, "If we divorce, what will the rules be?" You can do something called a postnuptial agreement.

    6. SB

      Okay.

    7. JS

      And, and that would, in the event you divorce, make the divorce a little less acrimonious because you've resolved certain issues. It's basically like the prenup you should've had.

    8. SB

      Okay.

    9. JS

      So, I have seen people in both prenups and in postnups put in what's called fidelity clauses, which essentially are a clause that say that if you cheat on your spouse, here's what the penalty will be.

    10. SB

      Ah.

    11. JS

      And it could be a financial penalty, it could have, you know, a support-related context, it could have, be a percentage of certain ownership rights, you know, things that you have.

    12. SB

      Are they a good idea from what you've seen? Are they useful in-

    13. JS

      I think they're a terrible idea. Yeah, from a legal standpoint, they're a terrible idea, for, for a couple of reasons. One, defining cheating is very tricky. Uh, you know, if, if, if you're ... If we're gonna define cheating as a specific form of sexual contact, I guess that's a pretty clear definition. But, but even infidelity, it's not all created equal. I mean, I think we could all agree that if you, if your partner, uh, when they were drunk, uh, on vacation or at a party, you know, had some kind of fleeting sexual contact with another person and then woke up the next day and went, "Oh, my God, what did I do? I regret this so much. But they're never gonna see this person again. It was just a stupid dalliance, it happened." You know, again, not excusing that behavior, but that's different than if you were having an ongoing affair with another person. Or I think there are probably some people, if they were being honest, if they said, "Would you rather that your spouse, on a drunken night out, kissed somebody, or was texting another person five times a day for six weeks and sharing the most intimate thoughts?" You know, and, what we call an emotional affair. Well, I mean, I, I think we can agree that, like, something about an emotional affair, like, someone becoming your confidant ... There, there ... I once heard someone say, and I, in my professional life I found it to be true, that when men find out that a woman who they're with has had an affair, their first question is, "Did you sleep with him?" When women find out a man had an affair, their first question is, "Are you in love with her?" And I think that tells you a lot about men and women's relationships. Because there's a sense of, "Okay, what, what was this? Was this sex or was this, like, 'I'm, I don't love you anymore, I don't want you in my life anymore?'" Because those are two really different things. And, and so a fidelity clause is a one-size-fits-all concept that just says, "Okay, we're gonna define cheating, and then there's gonna be a penalty for you doing it." Now, again, in what I've observed in life, cheating is its own penalty. Cheating turns your life ... At best, cheating turns your life into, like, an unbelievably complicated, like, jumping from one foot to another, lying to everyone involved. Like, rarely does anybody get out of infidelity without hurting themselves and a bunch of other people. Like, whether it's not only their partner, but even the person who they cheated with, or, or that person's partner. Like, there's so, there's so much pain to go around when, when cheating happens. And so ...... to say, "And there's gonna be an economic penalty." You know, it's a bit like, you know, using drugs is illegal in a lot of places. But I can't imagine that there's a heroin addict who goes, "You know, I'm gonna shoot up... Oh, wait! It's illegal. I don't wanna get in trouble. Yeah, no. No, I'm not go..."

    14. SB

      (laughs)

    15. NA

      (laughs)

    16. JS

      Like, that's not how it works. Like, you're adding insult to injury. You know, this person, they're already in a very difficult position. I don't think making it illegal is gonna do much, except create an underground economy. Same kind of thing. I, I think that infidelity, there should be sufficient incentives in a relationship to not cheat, and there, there are already, by definition, so many consequences for cheating that adding to that an economic penalty, I don't know that a person's gonna be about to cheat and then go, "This could cost me, like, 20 more grand. Uh, no, I'm not gonna do it."

  12. 37:30 – 39:39

    Are Prenups On The Rise?

    1. JS

    2. SB

      Are you seeing more and more people getting those prenups?

    3. JS

      Yeah. Prenups are... I have to tell you, there's a generational shift happening. I, I see a lot of people in their... I've been doing this job for 25 years. And I will tell you, the people currently in their 20s and early 30s, like the prime demographic for marriage, mid, mid-20s to mid-30s, are getting prenups at a rate that I would say is probably 5X what it was 10 years ago, 15 years ago, certainly 25 years ago from when I started. I, I think there's a more pragmatic view of relationships. I think that there's, there's a lot more open discussion. I mean, although there is a, a tremendous increase in the amount of, like, performative, "Look how happy we are!" You know, I mean, while it's like, you know, white teeth and rotting gums, you know? Like, we're, we're, we're doing the performative social media, "Look at how great, hashtag blessed." And meanwhile, our life is, you know, is, our relationship is, is rotting from the inside. Um, and we see a lot of that. Like, I, I, I have to tell you something. I see people in my office who publicly are having the greatest relationships ever. Like, if you believe their social media, they are so madly in love. And it shocks me, because I think about all the people that are dissatisfied in their perfectly acceptable relationship 'cause it's not as amazing as that relationship. And meanwhile, that relationship is nowhere near that amazing as they'd have you believe it. And, and we've got the audacity now as a culture that people without any apology, you know, do the, "We're perfectly happy. These hateful rumors that we're unhappy are terrible, and then we've decided to amicably part ways. We res- ask you to respect our privacy during this difficult time." And you're like, "Okay, but wait a minute! Like a month ago when there was rumors that the two of you were splitting up, you yelled at all of us for saying it's so mean that we're speculating. And now you're like, 'Yes, we've split up.' So we were right! So w- you were making us feel awful about ourselves and how madly in love you were with each other, but now, you know, we were basing our lives, like, we're, we're basing our, our, our level of satisfaction on watching your greatest hits while we live our gag

  13. 39:39 – 44:18

    Are People Fake Happy?

    1. JS

      reel."

    2. SB

      Do you think there's something in the idea that those that endeavor to convince the world that they're happy in their relationships are often not as happy?

    3. JS

      100%. I'll actually extrapolate that further. My, my father is a Southerner, so he has a lot of Southern folksy things he says. And one of them was, "Empty barrels make the most noise." And he used to say that to me when I was a kid all the time. Whenever somebody had something fancy that they owned, 'cause I grew up without a lot of money and maybe someone would drive a beautiful car and I'd say, "Wow, that car is so cool." And he'd say, "You know, empty barrels make the most noise." That, that the people that, that have true joy in their relationship really don't feel like they have to advertise it. People who have... Like, I, I represent some of the wealthiest people in the world. Like, New York is the epicenter of commerce and finance for the United States and, to some degree, for the world. Y- you know, in the UAE, you're more likely to find a gold-plated Ferrari, but in New York, like, finance, Wall Street, like, it is, it is the home of it. So I represent... I have a client who's worth $8 billion. You would walk past him on the street, you would never know he has very much money at all. He drives a Jeep Grand Cherokee, which is, like, a very mid-range car. He wears, like, you know, totally nondescript clothing. Like, he just looks like a typical middle-aged dude, and you would not look at him and go... L- he gets his hair cut at, like, Supercuts for 25 bucks. Like, he's not posh in the things that he owns and does, and he's, he could buy, you know... He, his income annually is, like, the gross domestic product of a few company, of a few countries. And, you know, he's not... But, and yet I have clients who appear to be incredibly wealthy, and as a divorce lawyer, I get to see the absolutely unfiltered version of people's finances, and I can tell you, they are deeply in debt, many of them. You know, this is particularly true of celebrities. You know, celebrities have to live these big performative lives 'cause if they're, they don't, you know, drive a posh car and they don't wear the, the latest designer labels, there's this sense of, "Ooh, are they not doing well?" And especially with sort of influencer culture, you know, there's just so much, like, you know, everything everyone's wearing and doing has to be the best of the best and the most expensive. I, I find very often these are... The more people have to flaunt their wealth, the less wealth they probably have. Like, you know, money talks, like, wealth whispers. And it's very comfortable just whispering. It doesn't feel like it has to prove to the world. In fact, it, it would rather that everyone not know who it was. There was a time where fame was an unfortunate side effect of talent. So you were really good at something, so then everybody heard about who you were and all of a sudden everybody knew who you were, and that was unfortunate 'cause you couldn't go out to eat anymore, you couldn't just live your life anymore. Now, of course, there were times where it probably felt really nice. You know, "It feels good..." Listen, I, I walk down the street in New York City sometimes. People... Today, guy said to me, "Hey man, love your stuff."Thanks. That's great. Feels nice. Definitely nice. There's times where it doesn't. There's times when I'm on my phone, I'm, I'm in the middle of talking to a client and somebody's standing there next to me waiting to talk to me. And I know they're waiting to say something so lovely, but there's a part of me that's like, "Okay, man, I, I gotta, like, do what I'm doing right now. I'm, I'm doing the thing." You know? And now being famous is the goal for so many people. So I, I think there is definitely, when people say, "Look at how happy we are. Look at how happy we are. Look at how happy..." You know, it's like, "Please tell me how happy we are, because if you don't tell me how happy we are, I'm gonna have to look at this relationship and I'm gonna see how unhappy we are." You know? When someone wants to be famous, it's like, "Tell me I have value. Please tell me I have value. Oh God, please tell me I have value." Because, you know, the, the reason I was never really interested in being famous is that the praise of strangers never really felt that important to me. Like, if the people in my life think I have something interesting to say and care about me and like me, that's really meaningful to me. And I'm touched for anyone who's ever appreciated my work or enjoyed it. But I never said like, "Oh, I, I really wanna get out there and, you know, have people know who I am and tell me I'm smart." Because, 'cause I, I know I'm smart. Like, it's okay. Like, you know, my beliefs don't require you to believe them. And, and so I, I think this performative culture when it comes to relationships is an unfortunate thing, because again, we're comparing ourself. We can't help as a species, but compare ourselves to the things we

  14. 44:18 – 50:44

    Stop Comparing Your Relationships To Others

    1. JS

      see around us.

    2. SB

      God, you must see so much of that in your office where someone comes in and they say, "My marriage isn't working." And they use the, they use the comparative measure. They say, "Well, you know, Jenny and Dave, right? They're like this and we are not so..."

    3. JS

      Right. But how much sex are they having? How much, like how much sex is enough sex? Like honestly. Like, we don't talk about these things. We don't, we don't. There's so much of our day-to-day life that we're constantly feeling like we're not doing well based on nothing. Like, "I don't think I'm doing that well." Compared to what? "I'm not good looking enough." Compared to what? A photoshopped image of a person on steroids. Yeah, you're right. You don't look like a photoshopped person on steroids. You're not supposed to. Like, women are going into doctor's offices saying, "Make me look like this." And showing the doctor something that's been photoshopped. That person doesn't look like that. Like, how would you know you're not having enough sex? How much sex are people having?

    4. SB

      Is that frequent, one? Sex?

    5. JS

      Yeah. Sex is huge. Sex is huge. It's, well, I mean, first of all, it better be because what's the difference between a spouse and a roommate otherwise? Like, if it's just like, oh, we're gonna be partners in a home together. Like, you don't have to marry each other to do that. You can just live together and be... I mean sex is the glue. Sex is the thing that brings you together. Sex is what makes a romantic relationship a romantic relationship. And again, it, it can be any number of varieties of sex. It can be preferences of sex, it can be anything. But we don't talk about... We talk about all kinds of things in po- in polite society now, if you can call it that. I mean, we talk more than we ever did about, you know, transgender issues and LGBTQ+ issues. And I think that's progress. I think it's great that people can talk about anything. We can talk about kink, we can talk about like, I'm a big fan of people being able to speak openly about the things that make them happy and make them feel good. And, you know, not having to feel ashamed about certain things. But baseline, like how, how well we're not having enough sex. Okay. Compared to what? The sex we used to have as a couple. That makes sense. That makes sense to me. Like if we set a baseline and say, "We used to have sex every day. When we first started dating, we had sex four times a day." Okay. But then the gl- you know, luster wears off, you know, now we, we used to have sex once a day now once a week. Is that okay? Is that natural? Is that part of the progression of a relationship? Or is that a sign that one or both of us are feeling dissatisfied with each other? Can we talk about that and not have it be a fight? Can we talk about that and not hear it as a, as something that we have to react defensively to? And that's, that's the stuff I tried to talk about in my book is that people come in and they go, "Well, you know, we're unhappy with each other. I was cheating on her, but I was cheating on her because she wasn't sleeping with me." "Well, I wasn't sleeping with him 'cause he is never nice to me." "Well, I'm not nice to her 'cause every time I talk to her, all she does is put me down." Okay? And, and you sit here going, "Okay, so you guys have just been in this death spiral, you know, just going down and down and down. You started at I love you more than 8 billion other people in the world, but somehow you just started to do this death spiral. And now you're right. You won. You guys, you won. You're both right. You don't have to sleep with him. You don't have to be nice to her. You don't have to say a kind word. You don't have to do any of that. You don't have to be married. Great news. You don't have to be married, but you decided to be married. You signed up to be married. So at some point this made sense to you. You liked each other that much and you were both pointing in the same direction and at some point you lost the plot. So my feeling is, wouldn't it be better before you completely lose the plot to just do the preventative maintenance? Just-

    6. SB

      What's preventative maintenance?

    7. JS

      Talk about are we still as connected as we were? Are we still as excited as we were? Are we still, you know, are we still attracted to each other? Are we still enjoying each other physically, mentally, like emotionally?

    8. SB

      We don't wanna do that though 'cause it's uncomfortable, right?

    9. JS

      Okay. Lots of things are uncomfortable that are so good for you. You know, exercise is uncomfortable until you get in a rhythm of it and that feels really good, you know? So how, how would you know if the first time you went to the gym and you worked out and then you went home and you were like, "Oh my God, I'm so sore. I'm never working out again." Then you will never...... get into an exercise routine. You have to get through that part where everything's really sore. And you're still sometimes gonna be sore. You overdid it, you know? But you start to realize, "Yeah, but it's also bringing tremendous value to my life." You know? And so, why not? Like, why not trade what you want now, which is comfort in the moment, for what you want most, which is real connection, real intimacy, like, real joy. And- and- and that can be... And again, we want it. 86% of people who get divorced wouldn't get remarried within five years if we didn't want it, if we didn't believe it was possible. And if you've ever met someone who is happily married over a long period of time, you won the lottery. Like, they're so... Their lives are just so much better because they just go, "I have this partner." 'Cause this is terrifying. Like, life is terrifying and it's brutal and it- and it- and it ends, it invariably ends. We're all gonna die. Everyone we love's gonna die. Like, we're playing a game you can't win to the utmost. And to me, to have a partner in that, someone who you can hold their hand and go, you know, "When you're scared, I'll be here for you. And when I'm scared, you'll be here for me, and you'll help me see my blind spots and I'll help you see yours, and let's just do this thing and we'll never be alone." Like, what a gorgeous thought that is, what a beautiful thought that is, what a worthy pursuit that is. But yeah, you gotta be uncomfortable once in a while. You gotta tell it- each other something other than what the other person wants to hear once in a while. But to me, like, if the payoff is real connection, keeping real intimacy, keeping your partner happy and satisfied with you so that the thought of splitting up or running off with somebody else is just a fleeting thought that maybe occasionally jumps into their head, like, that seems such a worthwhile investment to me.

  15. 50:44 – 55:25

    How To Prevent Divorce

    1. SB

      Preventative maintenance. I wanna just drill down a little bit into what that actually looks like, 'cause there'll be a lot of people right now, including myself, who heard you use this term preventative maintenance-

    2. JS

      Yeah.

    3. SB

      ... and immediately I thought, "Jesus Christ, I probably should do that a little bit more."

    4. JS

      Sure.

    5. SB

      What do you mean by preventative maintenance?

    6. JS

      It can be lots of things. I think it can be... I try to give a lot of examples, but I- I think some of the simplest examples are very small gestures of courtesy. I mean, think about when you first started dating. All the little things that made the back of your neck tingle about this person. Like, they would say the littlest thing about you and it made you so happy 'cause they were noticing you. You know? And they- they- they saw beautiful things in you, and that made you see and feel those things in yourself. You know, that- that's a bea- amazing thing we can do for each other, you know? And- and so, I mean, at its core level, like the- the- the example I've given to a lot of my male friends and- and several of them have done it and I've got a lot of really good feedback on it, is leave- leave a note. Just leave a note in the morning when you leave for work or wherever it is you're going, just leave a note. You know, "It was so great hanging out with you last night. I'm with the prettiest girl in the whole world. Can't wait to see you again." That's it. What does that take? 10 seconds? 10 seconds. And- and every guy I meet who I say that to, they go, "Yeah, the first time I did it, she was like, 'What is going on? Why did you leave me that note? What are you... What- what- what is... What's going on?'" But then after a little while, like, if this is just something you do that you go, "Yeah, I just, you know, I wanna make a practice of, like, how I wanna tell you this stuff I forget to tell you sometimes." You know? Like, what does that take? Like, what does it take for your partner to say to you, "You're so smart." Like, "I just love being around you." Like, "You're so handsome. I'm so lucky." Like, what does that take? That's nothing. It doesn't cost anything. It takes nothing to do that.

    7. SB

      Why don't we do it?

    8. JS

      I don't know. I don't know. I- I think we just... Whoever discovered water, it wasn't a fish. Like, I think you're just in it and you just stop seeing it, and that person's just there. And again, I don't know. And I also think culture is antagonistic to it. 'Cause the example I give to people, 'cause people love their dogs and I love my dogs, but, like, dogs are a great way to look at this rationally because I've got a 13-year-old dog. I got him when he was a puppy, now he's 13. And like me, he's slowed down a lot. His back hurts. He's not quite the puppy he used to be. I have never once looked at that dog and gone, "I gotta get a puppy."

    9. SB

      (laughs)

    10. JS

      "This old- this old dog, he doesn't look as cute as he used to." And like, "Oh my God, have you seen how cute puppies are?" Like, I would never. That's my dog, man. I fall more in love with that dog every single day, you know? And yeah, sure, puppies are cute and they're great and I'll pet them, but that's my dog, man. I wouldn't trade all the puppies in the world for that dog. Your partner, your romantic partner, like, what... When did it become acceptable as it- as it is in- in culture to just- just piss all over your partner? Like, every guy, it's like the, "Uh, I'm married to the most loathsome harpy ever to castrate a man." Like, "This one, the old ball and chain." And women, it's like the guy is like, "Oh, this idiot." Like, "This just lovable idiot, you know? He doesn't know. He doesn't know anything. He's so stupid. Men are so stupid." Like, when did that... What do you think is gonna come from that other than this disdain that we can then have for each other and this sort of disrespect? As opposed to being, like, so into each other, which is what you were when you were strangers. You know, when you didn't know each other. You know, every... All the same women sitting around in a group of women talking about how much their husbands suck, when their female friend goes, "Oh my God, I'm seeing this guy. I just started seeing him." "What did he... Oh my God, he sounds so great." All- all this is, all this is, is your guy...... five years ago.

    11. SB

      (laughs)

    12. JS

      But somehow now you're, you're really gonna buy the delusion that if she, it all works out with him and they get married and they do their little fairytale thing and the cake and the dress and the whole thing, that in five years she's still gonna be like, "He's so great." No, it's gonna be, "Oh, uh," again, just like the rest of you. So we need to start as a culture, you know, perhaps changing the way... 'Cause I think there is something about that where we're, you know, we're trying to, like, not make people self-conscious so we just, like, take the piss out of our partner all the time in front of, you know, people or around other people. And I- I don't find that charming.

  16. 55:25 – 1:02:59

    "Happy Wife, Happy Life"

    1. JS

    2. SB

      Do you think that when we get to the lovable idiot, "Oh my God, happy wife, happy life," all that stuff, which is part of culture now.

    3. JS

      Yeah, what the hell? Happy wife, hap- Whoever said that should just be beaten to death. Happy wife, happy life. Like, if I hear one more person give that advice to somebody, I have to tell you, that is just the most ridiculous... What does that even mean, happy wife, happy life?

    4. SB

      If she's happy, then I'm happy. Because it's-

    5. JS

      Is, is that true?

    6. SB

      I think it (laughs) , I think it's used by men who believe that their wife is always unhappy.

    7. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    8. SB

      So if she's not shouting at me and I can-

    9. JS

      Yeah.

    10. SB

      ... just sit here and watch the football-

    11. JS

      Yeah.

    12. SB

      ... then all, all is well.

    13. JS

      Why is that something to aspire to?

    14. SB

      (laughs)

    15. JS

      You know, man, I can't wait, what, for someday for my kids to just sit there while the oth- person in the other room is just mildly dissatisfied with them-

    16. SB

      (laughs)

    17. JS

      ... and they can just sit and watch, you know, the football ga- Really? That's, that's what we're aspiring to? That's what you hope for? Like, I gotta tell you, I just don't... I think our goals are really misaligned, you know? My greatest accomplishment in life is my children. Really? That's your greatest accomplishment in life, is your children? What... Let me ask you this. What will your children's greatest accomplishment i- in life be? Having children? 'Cause guess what? This is the ideology of a cancer cell. Growth for the sake of growth, for the sake of growth, for the sake of growth. Reproduction for the sake of reproduction. I don't think that's the highest, noblest goal. I think there should be something in there about quality of life, about making the world or the experience of others better. Like, again, it's not for me to define, but, but I certainly... I don't... Intelligence is hard to define, but I can spot stupid a mile away. And I have to tell you, a good relationship, you know, it's kind of hard to quantify, but man, I know what sucks. I know a bad relationship when I see one, and we all know them. So what's more uncomfortable, that relationship where, you know, at least she's not yelling at me and she's only mildly dissatisfied and I can just be left alone for an hour and watch the football, or having to have an uncomfortable conversation, again, while you still like each other, but there's a little slippage, there's a little something going in the other direction and I don't want it to go too far? I mean, put it into the physical context. It is a whole lot easier to maintain a healthy weight than to gain 100 pounds and then try to figure out how to lose it. That's much, much harder and it's much worse for you. And the chances of you actually accomplishing it are way lower. Whereas maintaining a healthy weight, that's not an unrealistic thing to be able to do.

    18. SB

      Is there... I had sat here with a, one psychologist, um, who I'm sure you'll know, a very famous individual, um, called Jordan Peterson, and he said to me, he said... He was shouting when he said it. He said, "Listen." He goes, "You're gonna have to sit down for 90 minutes a week and you're gonna have to listen to her and she's gonna tell you everything that's wrong." And he goes, "If you don't listen to her for 90 minutes a week, you'll be listening to her in divorce court." And he was sh- he was almost shouting when he says it.

    19. JS

      Yeah.

    20. SB

      The analogy he's ma- the, w- in, what he's saying is what you're saying.

    21. JS

      Yeah.

    22. SB

      Is you're gonna have to-

    23. JS

      Yeah. I, you know, Jor- I, I find Jordan Peterson very entertaining. I've been a fan of his work a long time. Um, and I, I loved, actually, your conversation with him. Um, uh, what I will say is I think that he's sort of hyperbolic in his presentation sometimes, which I, I enjoy, but I think we totally agree on this. I think that, that what he's saying more than anything is that you can invest now in candor and in listening to this other person in a non-defensive manner. And, and so there's a chapter in my book called Hit Send Now-

    24. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    25. JS

      ... where I talk about exactly that, where I say, "You need to be able to have these conversations, but have them in a way that, that you're hearing it and you're saying it, you're agreeing." It's a contract that we know we love each other, so we're gonna try to say it with love, we're gonna try to hear it with love. Because I'm only saying it 'cause I... This is important to me, this relationship, and I want it to be good for you and for me. So I'm gonna go out on a limb here. I'm gonna take this risk 'cause you're worth it. You are worth it for me to take this risk. It's scary. I'm not excited about having to say it, but you know what? Like, I care enough, and when you say things to me, I'm gonna hear it. I'm gonna hear it as you saying, "I care so much about this relationship, I'm gonna say this harder thing to say." And it might be little. It might be, you know, "You said... The other night you were talking about my sister and you made that little joke about her, and it felt like you were, like, kind of making fun of my sister and I thought you liked my sister, and it's really important to me that you like my sister, 'cause I really like my sister. So maybe I misunderstood you, and if I did, okay, great. Let me know that."

    26. SB

      Hit send now. That-

    27. JS

      Just hit send now. The reason I said hit send now is when you... You ever, like, write an email where you said something important and you, like, write it and rewrite it and you craft it, and you're, like, about to hit send and you're like, "Oh boy." And then you hit it and you're like, "Well, it's there now."

    28. SB

      Yeah (laughs) .

    29. JS

      "Cannot send it now." Like, it's done. I hit send now. That's where I got the term hit send now, because... But I, but I said, like, make it a technique. Like, say to your partner, "I wanna do this. I want you to do it and I wanna do it, but I wanna make it clear." Like, make the subject heading of the email, hitting send now.

    30. SB

      Okay, so they know.

  17. 1:02:59 – 1:07:53

    Is Sex The Biggest Cause Of Divorce?

    1. JS

    2. SB

      How frequent is sex the issue in divorce? As in not... I'm not talking about affairs.

    3. JS

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      I'm saying sexlessness.

    5. JS

      Yeah. That's a great question. So- so-

    6. SB

      O- And also, is it increasing?

    7. JS

      Yeah. So here's what I'll say. There- there's... Reverse engineering the demise of a marriage is a very difficult thing for anybody to do because the two people in the relationship aren't even really fully aware of what's going on in themselves, much less each other, and then an outside observer asking them... So, like, you can do all the studies you want of people's self-reported satisfaction or lack of satisfaction in a relationship or what caused them to become dissatisfied. That is so loaded up with people's delusion and people's projection and all these other things that I don't think you could quantify it. So everything I'm saying, I'm saying as a divorce lawyer who I think is empathetic and who I think, for a living, puts myself in other people's mind to try to understand what they're doing and why they did what they did and come up with the best and worst possible excuses for it, and then to tell that story, right? Like, I'm a full contact storyteller. That's my job. So... And my job, if you're really honest, is to manipulate people's emotional state. My job is to make a judge feel good about my client, bad about the other side, make the other side feel scared, and make my client feel safe. That's my job, is to manipulate everybody's emotional state through the power of storytelling. That's what being a divorce lawyer is. It sounds sexier when I say it that way, but that is what it is. So when we look at that as the job, where does sex fall into that equation? It's- it's everywhere in that equation because again, it is the thing that separates this relationship from other kinds of relationships. Sex is a thing that is definitional to a romantic relationship. Now, again, will it always be the same? Will it always stay at the same level of importance? No. But is it a great canary in the coal mine that, you know, like, something's off with the sex now? That- that- that- that- that tragedy's not far behind? Yeah. Like, because almost every couple, when I talk to my side of the equation about, "When did this thing start? When did the ship start to sink?" there was certainly some change in sex. Because again, sex is definitional in terms of what distinguishes a romantic relationship from a platonic relationship. 'Cause listen, guys, we can do this however we want as a society. We don't have to get married. We do not have to get married. We just have to... We just have to reproduce. But we could just decide, "Hey, we're just gonna reproduce, and we're gonna live in, like, colonies of platonic, you know, relationships, and we'll just have sex for the purposes of breeding at certain times, and then we'll figure out who gets to raise what kids, and that'll be that." We don't do that. And- and it's not like, well, we don't do that 'cause we've made a set of rules. Societies don't do that. They've never really done that. Like, this- there's... Somehow, this permutation in the human and animal kingdom keeps coming up, where we have pair bonds and we reproduce with the person who's our partner, and then we sort of work together. And, you know, how much does the tribe, how much does the rest of the world get involved in that? How extended is the family? How extended is the tribe? That varies, right? From species to species, from culture to culture, from time to time. But we... This fundamental idea of, like, reproduction between, you know, the male and the female of the species and there being some then continued interaction and the sharing of responsibilities towards the rearing of the young, it's pretty common, right? So what's the thing that makes A and B? It's the sex. Like, there's- there's- there's sex. There's some romantic or sexual component to that relationship that then leads to reproduction of some kind. So I think when you take that out of the equation or when there's a change in that, there's a disruption in the force, right? There's A disruption in the system. And then...You can trace it back. Like, yeah, we... And again, sometimes it's not direct cause and effect, like, "Oh, we started having less sex and then we stopped being nice to each other," sometimes it's stopped being nice to each other, so we stopped having as much sex. But it's an element. There's always an element there, you know? And then that's my key piece of advice to everyone in the book that I try to say over and over and over again. If you had to, like, summarize it, is pay attention. Just pay attention, to, to what you're feeling, to what your partner's feeling. And then say it. You know, I, I, I say that all marital problems stem from two things: I don't know what I want and I don't know how to express it. And I think if you can figure that out, if you can figure out what you want and figure out how to express it, that's like 99% of the battle.

  18. 1:07:53 – 1:09:36

    Fixing The Marriage

    1. SB

      When someone gets to you, how often do they go from getting to a divorce lawyer, having that conversation, "We want to separate," to repairing and rebuilding and getting back to happiness?

    2. JS

      Yeah. That's a great question. So I- As my career has progressed, I am now a guy who you hire when you're in a really bad situation, so I'm a trial lawyer. So now, you know, you can do things with a scalpel and you can do them with a chainsaw. I'm a chainsaw now. Like now, I'm-

    3. SB

      (laughs)

    4. JS

      You hire me 'cause your situation's bad, you know?

    5. SB

      Because you're more expensive? Is that im-

    6. JS

      No. I'm more expensive because I'm really good in high-conflict situations. I'm really tactical.

    7. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    8. JS

      I'm really strategic, I think 10 moves ahead, and I outpace everyone with my work ethic. I wake up at 4:00 AM, and I wake up very sharp, and I wake and I'm immediately thinking about clients and cases, and I'm dedicated to this work in an absolutely insane way, i- in a way that is in no way good as a human being. It's really, really... I'm a great lawyer. I'm questionable as a human being, but I'm really, really good as a lawyer, because I'm better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life.

    9. SB

      Have you ever seen someone get to you and then go back to perfect, like...

    10. JS

      Yeah. For many years in my career, early in my career, the first decade or more of my career, when I handled more sort of regular people's divorces, you know, um, yeah, I would frequently, I would frequently try to steer people if I thought that that was possible. I still, to this day, if I think it's possible for people to work something out, either in individual counseling or in individual counseling and then maybe couples counseling, I will steer them in that direction, of course.

  19. 1:09:36 – 1:10:02

    Who Cheats More?

    1. JS

    2. SB

      Who cheats more, men or women?

    3. JS

      I think both men and women cheat with a tremendous amount of frequency. I think that, um... I don't think that you could really say one does it more than the other. I think that more, more men are accused of having ruined the relationship by cheating than women are.

  20. 1:10:02 – 1:13:05

    Who Wants More Sex?

    1. JS

    2. SB

      Who's more dissatisfied with the s- the amount of sex, men or women?

    3. JS

      Men, generally.

    4. SB

      Men want more sex?

    5. JS

      Yeah. Men generally want more sex.

    6. SB

      Interesting.

    7. JS

      Women want more quality sex. Men are quantity-based, in my experience, coming to sex. And that's... Like, men would rather have frequent sex that may not be the highest possible quality, but it, like, kinda gets the job done. I mean, it's the same reason why pornography is more popular with men than women. I think that men are just like, "I gotta get the poison out of my system here. I gotta be, get on with my day, and I'm not gonna be able to think straight until I just get that over with." And so, I, I think that, that, um, women, it's, it's a, it's a different... I, I don't think women, you know, have, uh, don't find sex important. I, I hate to make generalizations about, about gender. Um, but I, i- from my seat, the number of men that come in and say to me, like, "Yeah, like, she's just not sleeping with me." Or, "Well, what did she expect? Like, of course I slept with somebody else. Like, she was, like, sleeping with me once a week. She was sleeping with me once a month." I've had clients who came in who were like, "Yeah, we hadn't had sex in six years." Six years? Like, first of all, why would you put up with that? Second of all, if you're this person's spouse, how, what the hell did you think was going on? You thought things were okay? Like, "Yeah, we haven't had sex in six years. We just forgot to do that." Like, I get it if you didn't clean your gutters in six years, or, you know, maybe, like, I get it if you didn't change your oil in a year. Like, it's a bad idea, but, like, I get it. It can slip your mind. Like, "Oh, my God, I haven't been to the dentist in a year." But sex?

    8. SB

      You must have heard a lot of affair stories.

    9. JS

      Oh, my God. Please, if you could have, like, a PhD in infidelity, I would have it. Yeah. I mean, it's, 'cause it, cheating is a huge component to divorces, so many divorces. But the, the question is always cause or effect, and the danger of putting so much emphasis on cheating is that it, it's an oversimplification. So someone comes in and goes, "We're getting divorced." "Why?" "Because he's sleeping with his secretary." I get it. Like, yes, that's true. That is one of the variables that has led to your divorce, but you, you hadn't slept with him in three years. So I'm not saying that makes the cheating forgivable, but you're saying you had a really super awesome, healthy marriage, and then this nefarious secretary came into the picture and suddenly he was wooed away? No. There were conditions that made that very likely to happen, right? And so, let's start going back a little further in the cause. Like, the truth is at the bottom of a bottomless pit. So we can try to reverse engineer this and say, "Well, he slept with his secretary 'cause you weren't sleeping with him." "Well, I wasn't sleeping with him 'cause he wasn't nice to me. Well, I wasn't nice to him because he was never paying any attention to me. Well, I wasn't paying attention to her because what did I want to pay attention to? She's, hasn't changed at all," or "She's changed so much, and she's nothing like she used to be." There... And, and again, everyone, you'll be shocked to hear, when they tell the story of their life, they're usually the hero. They rarely come into my office and go, "Listen, I'm a piece of garbage."

    10. SB

      (laughs)

    11. JS

      You know? But I will tell you, when it comes to cheating, sometimes they do.

  21. 1:13:05 – 1:14:18

    Most Shocking Deceit

    1. SB

      I was gonna say, you must have had people come in and admit things to you about their current-

    2. JS

      Yeah. Yeah.

    3. SB

      ... affairs that you, just blow your mind. Is there a particular example where you go, "That was the most shocking example that I had heard of someone deceiving the marital commitment"?

    4. JS

      Yeah. I mean, (sighs) I've had people come in and tell me stories that I just think to myself, like, "How, how did you actually like," just the engineering of it. Like, I've had people who came in and they had multiple, they had two families happening at once, and neither of them knew about the other. Like, that, that the mistress who he started a family with, like, thought he was divorced, and the wife thought that he was traveling for business. And like, he would literally have Christmas with both, he would have Thanksgiving with both. Like, he would... And he just found a way to sort of logistically do it. And I've, I've seen things like that many times. I mean, I've seen people... I, I, it's almost become a cliché that people who sleep with their, their sister-in-law or their brother-in-law or-

    5. SB

      Mother-in-law? (laughs)

    6. JS

      ... their cousin. Oh, and I haven't seen mother-in-law yet.

    7. SB

      Father-in-law?

    8. JS

      Um, I have seen father-in-law. Yeah, I have seen father-in-law. Yeah, I saw that, saw that one. I, there's a chapter in my book about nannies-

    9. SB

      Uh-huh.

    10. JS

      ... how people sleep with the nanny. That's

  22. 1:14:18 – 1:16:36

    Why Husbands Like To Sleep With The Nannies

    1. JS

      pretty common.

    2. SB

      Why do... You, you talk in the book about how wealthy clients like to sleep with the nanny.

    3. JS

      Yeah. It, I don't know what that's about. I mean, I do, I have a theory about it, and I, I, I think that, what I call the nanny fascination. I think that it's not that hard to understand. Like, the nanny is a lot of the characteristics of the wife, right? She's good with the kids. She's there to be a supportive other to the husband. Um, she's a helpmate, you know? But without any of the autonomy and agency, without any of the... Like, she's an employee at the end of the day.

    4. SB

      (laughs)

    5. JS

      It's so much simpler of a relationship in the sense that it's like, "You gotta do a good job or I'm gonna fire you," you know? So-

    6. SB

      Not talking back, yeah.

    7. JS

      Yeah, "Don't talk back 'cause I'm your employer, you know, and you're not gonna..." So I think, I get it, you know, I get it. I also think too that... And this is a, this is a, this is dangerous ground, uh, especially in the year of our Lord 2024. But I think she's also a version of the wife. Like, she's a version of the wife when the wife was just a woman. Like, she has a life outside the home.

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. JS

      Like, she, when she's not nannying, she's out doing stuff. And so she's got things to talk about. Like, she's gone places. She does things. There's something mysterious about her, you know? And I, I think that's... One of, the advice I give in the book is, is that I think that, um, wives can, can embrace the part of themselves that's the nanny. Like-

    10. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. JS

      ... take the time to, like, don't let your spouse and your children eclipse who you are. Like, who you are is who your husband fell in love with.

    12. SB

      Yeah.

    13. JS

      Like, your, your, your kids exist because a man and a woman found each other attractive, you know? And, and so don't, don't forget in your desire to be a good parent and your desire to be a good partner, don't forget to be really good to yourself and to, to cultivate your interests and your passions and to try to enjoy them as best you can, you know? Without shirking... Obviously, none of us wants to shirk our responsibilities to our families and to our children, but you're important. Like, I th- I think people are... The husband and the wife, you know, are important. Or, or in a same-sex marriage, husband, husband, wife, wife. Some... You're important to each other, you know? Remember who you are. Remember the value you brought to the relationship.

  23. 1:16:36 – 1:22:17

    Killing To Get Out Of A Relationship

    1. JS

Episode duration: 2:20:02

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