The Gottman Doctors: Women Tend to Be More Unhappily Married & Non-Cuddlers Have an Awful Sex Life!

1. 0:00 – 2:43

   Intro

   1. JGJohn Gottman0:00

      Women tend to be more unhappily married than men.

   2. JGJulie Gottman0:03

      And 80% of the time, women bring up problems in a relationship.

   3. JGJohn Gottman0:08

      But 69% of all problems are not solvable.

   4. JGJulie Gottman0:12

      So if you rely on problems getting solved as an indicator of the success of the relationship, it's not gonna look good.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett0:19

      Dr. John and Dr. Julie Gottman.

   6. JGJulie Gottman0:21

      World-renowned researchers and clinical psychologists...

   7. SBSteven Bartlett0:24

      ... who've been married 36 years and have spent the last 50 years studying love. You made something called the Love Lab. What is that?

   8. JGJohn Gottman0:31

      We followed 3,000 couples.

   9. JGJulie Gottman0:33

      It taught us the difference between what masters of relationship do and what disasters do.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett0:39

       What advice would you give to me, then?

   11. JGJohn Gottman0:41

       Cuddle. 96% of non-cuddlers had an awful sex life.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett0:45

       Anything else?

   13. JGJulie Gottman0:45

       Yes.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett0:46

       (laughs)

   15. JGJulie Gottman0:46

       The hookup culture is thriving.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett0:48

       Is that a problem?

   17. JGJohn Gottman0:49

       Yes.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett0:50

       Why?

   19. JGJulie Gottman0:50

       Okay. So let me point out something that everybody needs to hear. So...

   20. JGJohn Gottman0:55

       And also, kissing is very powerful. Men who kiss their wives goodbye when they leave for work live four years longer than men who don't.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett1:04

       In your research, you found that during conflict, couples who show four key behaviors mean that an argument is doomed?

   22. JGJohn Gottman1:10

       Yes. And they are criticism, defensiveness. The third one was the worst, and that was (beep) . That was the best predictor of relationship breakup. And the fourth was...

   23. SBSteven Bartlett1:21

       John, Julie, can you role-play the behavior that a couple who are destined to fail would exhibit?

   24. JGJulie Gottman1:28

       Oh, yes. So...

   25. SBSteven Bartlett1:32

       It's absolutely crazy to me that so many of you have decided to watch our show, um, and so many of you have decided to subscribe to our show. We now have five million subscribers on YouTube, which is a number that I just can't comprehend, and it's a dream that I absolutely never could've had. We started The Diary of a CEO just over three years ago now, and in my wildest expectations, we might have had 100,000 subscribers by now. So you can imagine how shocked I am that so many of you have chosen to tune into these conversations every week, um, and spend some time with us. So thank you. And I made a deal with you. I made a deal that if you subscribe to this show, that we would continue to raise the bar. And in 2024, we're gonna raise the bar like never before. I've been working for the last nine months on a surprise for all of you that have subscribed to this show, and I'm very excited to deliver that for you. The production's gonna change. We're gonna go even further with our guests, and we're gonna tell even more global stories. So as always, if you appreciate what we're doing here, the simple free favor I'll ask from you is to hit the subscribe button. Let's get on with the episode. (instrumental music)

2. 2:43 – 7:06

   What mission are you on & Why study love?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:43

      John, Julie, you've both been studying the subject of love for more than 50 years.

   2. JGJulie Gottman2:49

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett2:50

      You've written books. You've done a lot of primary research. You run something called the Love Lab. Gonna start with you, Julie.

   4. JGJulie Gottman2:57

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett2:59

      What is the mission that you're on, and why love?

   6. JGJulie Gottman3:04

      That is the most wonderful question in the universe. Here's why. We have a world, as we all know, that is full of conflict, is full of, uh, antipathy, is full of violence, domestic violence, all kinds of clashes between people. And we wanted to focus on love because love is the great healer. Right? It heals people's hearts. It heals people's souls. It brings people together. It unifies people. But nobody has taken Relationships 101. Nobody knows how to have productive relationships that are calm, and gentle, and compassionate. And at the beginning of the research, we had no idea of what successful couples did to really solidify their relationship and sustain it. So John and his wonderful colleague, Robert Levinson, did some of that earliest research that taught us the difference between what masters of relationship do and what disasters do, so we could help as many people as possible.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett4:26

      And John, the same question for you. With all the work that you've done in your life, what is it that you're seeking to deliver to the person that consumes that work? What is it you're seeking to do for them?

   8. JGJohn Gottman4:38

      Well, Bob and I started studying relationships because we were so incompetent at it. (laughs)

   9. JGJulie Gottman4:44

      (laughs)

   10. JGJohn Gottman4:44

       And we were just two clueless guys going from one relationship disaster to another, and we were really curious about whether there were people out there who could do it well. And we found there were. And, you know, and then we thought, "How are they different from people, you know, who, like us, really went from one disaster to another?" And we had no idea. We really had very few hypotheses when we started, so it was just curiosity. Uh, and we weren't interested in helping anybody at all. We were just curious about finding out what the differences were. And then 26 years ago, Julie and I decided to work together, and she's a clinical psychologist. She wants to help people. And I thought it was impossible to change relationships, 'cause if you can predict with such high accuracy that a relationship is doomed or works, how can you change it? You know, it seemed, seemed impossible. But Julie's really an optimist and-

   11. JGJulie Gottman5:47

       (laughs)

   12. JGJohn Gottman5:47

       ... really cares about people, and so we got together, and we thought, "Well, we need a theory if we're gonna help people, 'cause every relationship is different." And so first, we built a theory, and then we tested it. So that's how I got into it, really. I didn't have a mission.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett6:04

       So, how did you both come to study and work together on the subject of love in particular?

   14. JGJulie Gottman6:10

       Well, John had already been studying it, right?

   15. SBSteven Bartlett6:15

       Right.

   16. JGJulie Gottman6:15

       So, uh, we met, what, almost 38 years ago, and what happened is that I'd be coming home talking about my clinical cases over dinner, John would come home from the lab and be sharing the statistics and the findings he had that were really thrilling, and after a while, um, he was, he was garnering such incredible information, such great knowledge, that one day we were out in the middle of the sea canoeing and I said, "Honey, let's take this stuff out of the ivory tower."

   17. SBSteven Bartlett6:53

       Right.

   18. JGJulie Gottman6:54

       "Let's, let's form theory and interventions based on what these successful couples are doing to really sustain their love. It's such a beautiful thing we see." And he said, "Sure, why

3. 7:06 – 9:03

   Studying traits of successful couples

   1. JGJulie Gottman7:06

      not?" And we did.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett7:08

      And John, what was that research?

   3. JGJohn Gottman7:09

      Well, you know, Bob and I found that there really were masters of relationships, and we spent a dozen years studying gay and lesbian couples too, same thing there. There were people who knew how to have relationships and they were very different from the couples who were struggling. And most of the clinical books had been written by therapists who never saw the good relationships, and so we had information that was very new, and it was pretty fascinating. Um, but the question was could we actually turn a disaster into a master? Could we prevent relationship disaster? We didn't know. So it was kind of a question, you know, was it just correlation or were the findings causal? And so it, it was really a curiosity that continued.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett7:59

      And how many research papers have you published now?

   5. JGJohn Gottman8:02

      Uh, couple of hundred, I think.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett8:05

      And how many books between you have you written, Julie?

   7. JGJulie Gottman8:07

      I think we're on 52 maybe? (laughs)

   8. SBSteven Bartlett8:11

      How many couples have you studied, John?

   9. JGJohn Gottman8:14

      Well, our latest study involved over 40,000 couples, looking at their questionnaires and couples about to start therapy. But following couples in the lab that... the kind of lab that Bob Levinson and I created, uh, about 3,000 couples. And Bob studied a group of couples for 20 years, the same group of couples in their 40s or in their 60s when they started the study, and he actually was able to get funding for 20 years. So, the group of couples in their 40s were now in their 60s and he could compare them to the couples 20 years ago who were in their 60s. So it wound up being, you know, a 40-year longitudinal study.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett8:57

       Has anyone ever studied couples for that length of time?

   11. JGJohn Gottman9:00

       No, not really. It really was a

4. 9:03 – 12:51

   Link between relationships & our health

   1. JGJohn Gottman9:03

      first.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett9:04

      When people think about the subject of love, I don't think they necessarily hold it in such high importance in their life. Th- they think about other thing... especially as it correlates to our health outcomes, so like, you know, my physical health outcomes, are they right in deprioritizing love as a path to having good physical health, or does our love and relationships correlate to our, our physical health, our chance of disease, all these kinds of things?

   3. JGJohn Gottman9:30

      There's a new field that started kind of when I started doing my research and it's called social epidemiology. A guy named Leonard Syme started at Berkeley with his student Lisa Berkman, and they did this, uh, study called the Alameda County Study where they studied 9,000 people and Syme was interested in diet. He was interested in cholesterol. And he found that Chinese American immigrants just lived a lot longer and were a lot healthier than Americans were, even Chinese American immigrants. So he was kind of curious about, you know, what really was the difference? Was it the diet? Was it... And he found it was really community, it was really that these people moved with their friends. And he found in general that the quality of people's closest relationships really predicted longevity. Very strong prediction too, so it's become a whole field called social epidemiology, and people have studied the immune system and, you know, found that all over the planet, people who are socially isolated, who have bad relationships don't live as long, they get sick and die a lot younger, and that people who have great relationships, they live a lot longer and the quality of their life is better, they're a lot happier. And so it seems to make a real big difference. Modern social psychology has been finding the same thing with people's relationship to strangers, that that affects health. So if you reach out to strangers and in, in the morning, if you're commuting, having a conversation with the commuter next to you and you're open to learning about their lives, that also affects your health and longevity. So we're really a s- very social species.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett11:19

      It's interesting 'cause we spend a lot of time, you know, going to the gym or thinking about-

   5. JGJohn Gottman11:23

      Right.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett11:23

      ... our, our diet or something. But what you're saying and I think what a lot of your work has uncovered is that we should be investing in the same way in relationships in a really intentional way. And especially when we consider the nature of the world now where we're getting lonelier and more detached than ever before, no one taught me at any point in my life to think of my relationships like the gym. (laughs)

   7. JGJohn Gottman11:44

      Yeah, right. (laughs)

   8. SBSteven Bartlett11:45

      What's your take on that, Julie?

   9. JGJulie Gottman11:47

      Well, uh, being a gym buff myself, (laughs) I love going to the gym. But, um, one thing that I'm really remembering is that, uh, people whose parents divorced, typically they live four years less.... on average than people who grew up with an intact family. People who grew up with divorce and then ended up divorcing thems- themselves, their own relationships divorcing, lived eight years less. So, you can see how important love is. And we're beginning to understand all of this by looking at things like oxytocin, serotonin, versus things like adrenaline and cortisol, which are stress hormones that will flood the body and, uh, stress the body when we're in a bad relationship.

5. 12:51 – 15:41

   What is the love lab?

   1. JGJulie Gottman12:51

   2. SBSteven Bartlett12:51

      You made something called The Love Lab. Very curious name, place I think I'd like to go. Um, what is The Love Lab, John?

   3. JGJohn Gottman12:59

      Well, it got named that by the BBC when they did a, a show on our Newlyweds Study. But it was, it was basically an apartment-like setting and couples spent 24 hours there and the cameras were rolling the whole time they were awake. And, and like Bob and I did, we synchronized physiological data to the video time code so we could, you know, see what was, what they were doing, what they were saying to one another, and at the same time be able to look at their heart rates and their blood velocity and things like that. And, and we measured other physiological things and immune variables as well. So, that was basically the lab, and we followed couples a couple of months after the wedding. Many of them, uh, as they got pregnant and had babies, I learned how to study parent-infant interaction from some of my friends who were experts in that field, and we followed the children as they got older. So, that was kind of the lab. It was just to see whether, uh, there was any predictability in relationships if we weren't telling people what to talk about, just watching them as they might normally go about a typical day.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett14:11

      So, let me get this straight. You- you have these people come to this sort of normal setting, kind of like an apartment, but it's really a laboratory where they're being studied for their physiological biomarkers of, I don't know, heart rate, things like that.

   5. JGJulie Gottman14:23

      Right.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett14:23

      You just watch them?

   7. JGJulie Gottman14:24

      Well, they're being videotaped, right? And that videotape then afterwards is analyzed hundredth of a second by hundredth of a second, corresponding also to their physiological measures. And we're analyzing all of that tape in terms of the content of what they're saying, what their body movements are, what their facial expressions are, what emotions are they expressing, how are they expressing those emotions, if any, are they responding to each other's bids for connection. W- we looked at so much data and it was a gold mine. It taught us so much, not only about the best way for couples to manage conflict, but even more important, how do couples create a deeper friendship with one another. And by then, we'd already known that friendship in a relationship also helps create more passion and good sex in a long-lasting relationship. So, there was so much for us to learn. It was exciting.

6. 15:41 – 17:52

   The misconceptions about relationships

   1. JGJulie Gottman15:41

   2. SBSteven Bartlett15:41

      Going into that study at The Love Lab, what were the sort of big things that you discovered afterwards that are misconceptions about relationships? So, you know, I can think of a couple off the top of my head, but you'll know them better. What are the big misconceptions that you discovered from that? I'll start with you, Julie.

   3. JGJulie Gottman16:00

      A lot of people think that sustaining a good relationship takes huge effort, you know, takes really figuring out things like active listening, where if you say to me, "Steven, uh, you know, I am really angry because you keep leaving the lid off the toothpaste. What's the matter with you?" And how do I respond to that? Well, we would learn that criticism, for example, "You always, you never," those are criticisms, didn't work to manage conflict. On the other hand, what we also saw is that when somebody made a little tiny bid for connection, for example, there was a big window in this apartment, looking out the window and saying, "Oh, my God, there's a beautiful bird in that tree," what does your partner do? This proved to be incredibly important. Does your partner either turn against you by saying, "Stop interrupting me, I'm trying to read," or ignore you completely, which is silence, not paying attention, or look out the window too and say, "Huh, cool"? That's all it took to create a better friendship for a couple. And we found that the couples who were successful in the long haul turned towards each other's little bids for connection 85% of the time. The couples who ended up splitting up unhappy, divorced 33% of the time. So, listen to that difference, just between saying, "Uh-huh," and saying nothing.

7. 17:52 – 27:44

   How to connect with your partner

   1. JGJulie Gottman17:52

   2. SBSteven Bartlett17:53

      Let's start there then. I am... I think I am guilty of being very, very bad at responding positively to bids for connection from my partner. This is actually one of the central issues that we've struggled with over the last couple of months is my partner will come h-... Like-... usually I'm coming home, she's already home just before me, and I'm still, I've still got my work brain on, I'm thinking about work. I rush into the living room, sometimes I'll, like, say hello to her then I'll go on my laptop and I start working, and she comes over and says something to me, and because I'm focused on my work, I either acknowledge her but without turning my head or sometimes I'll just go, "One sec, babe, I'm busy," or say something, words to that effect.

   3. JGJohn Gottman18:33

      Right.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett18:34

      It's clearly causing a problem because-

   5. JGJohn Gottman18:36

      I'm guil- I'm guilty of the same thing.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett18:38

      (laughs)

   7. JGJohn Gottman18:39

      (laughs) I was working on, on a book, uh, and Julie said, "You know, I, I go into the living room and sit down and you don't even look up and I sit there for a while and then I get up and leave and you haven't even noticed that I was there." So I was guilty of it too, turning away, and we worked on it. (laughs)

   8. JGJulie Gottman18:57

      We did work on it. The other thing too, though, with John, and I've, I've learned to accept this, right, over time, is that John grew up in a little, teeny-weeny apartment as a refugee in New York City, and it was loud and noisy and there were a lot of people all around, so he had to develop this incredible sense of concentration. And so-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett19:23

      (laughs)

   10. JGJulie Gottman19:24

       ... when I first met you, it was so funny, John, um, I would be across the kitchen counter from John. He would be reading a book. He wouldn't even be on his computer. He'd be reading a book. And I would say, "John? Uh, John? Hey, John?" And I would wave my hand, and finally he would say, "Y- Oh. Yeah?" (laughs)

   11. JGJohn Gottman19:49

       I really didn't hear it. (laughs)

   12. JGJulie Gottman19:50

       He didn't hear it. I mean, literally. And I had to understand that with that kind of concentration, he really didn't hear me.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett20:01

       How did it make you feel?

   14. JGJulie Gottman20:02

       How did it make me feel? At first, it made me feel invisible, unimportant-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett20:09

       Yeah.

   16. JGJulie Gottman20:09

       ... um, unloved, rejected, alone. You know, it made me feel all kinds of stuff. Until I understood, wait a minute, there's something in his brain (laughs) that's very different than my brain because I'm always, you know... I have no skin. I'm, like, super aware of everything around me.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett20:30

       Okay, so John, give me some advice then. From your studies in The Love Lab, if my partner makes a bid for connection-

   18. JGJohn Gottman20:36

       Yeah.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett20:37

       ... what are the ways that people typically respond and how should I respond? When you look to the couples that were most successful over the long term, um, how did they respond? How should I respond? Give me some advice.

   20. JGJohn Gottman20:48

       Yeah, I think, I, I think the really great relationships have this motto that when their partner's upset, you just stop everything you're doing and listen. And I, I keep a notebook in my back pocket just for that purpose. So if Julie says, "We need to talk," I whip out my notebook (laughs) and I, my pen, and I say, "Okay, I'm taking notes." So I'm ready to listen to her. And, you know, it's true that sometimes I'm oblivious to what's going on around me, but, you know, I, I've become much more aware. So when she comes into the living room now, I, I stop what I'm doing, close the computer and say, "How you doing? What's on your mind?" (laughs)

   21. SBSteven Bartlett21:32

       Okay. My, my issue is, uh, with that is I work in the living room sometimes.

   22. JGJohn Gottman21:37

       Yeah.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett21:37

       So what's the balance between me being able to work in the living room or work in, like, a public home space-

   24. JGJohn Gottman21:42

       Right.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett21:42

       ... without being interrupted while also not rejecting my partner accidentally or, you know, low-key intentionally?

   26. JGJohn Gottman21:49

       Yeah. I, I think the solution is to create a ritual around connection, you know? So if she, if she really needs to talk to you, she can, you know, give you a signal that it's important for her to connect with you, and then it's not always happening, you know? It's just happening when it's important. And Julie's like that too. So she'll, you know, she'll come in and she won't sit there and, and just wait for me to respond. She'll actually go, "We need to talk." And then I know I get my notebook out. (laughs)

   27. JGJulie Gottman22:19

       But let me point out-

   28. JGJohn Gottman22:20

       Smile, signal.

   29. JGJulie Gottman22:20

       ... something though, honey. You're, you're talking only about, you know, if I'm upset about something. So I have to work in the living room also of our house, um, or John may be working in the living room, and if he's working on something and I want his attention, I may ask him, "Can I have your attention for a moment?" So I need to say what I need to him, and if it's something that's trivial and he says, "Just a minute," you know, "I'm working on an email" or whatever, okay. That's fine. You know, our timing is not gonna be identical.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett23:02

       Mm-hmm.
8. 27:44 – 32:46

   What is the 'attuned' framework?

   1. JGJulie Gottman27:44

   2. SBSteven Bartlett27:44

      What is this attune framework, John? ATTUNE, awareness, turning toward tolerance, understanding, non-defensive, empathetic. What is this framework?

   3. JGJohn Gottman27:54

      Yeah. Attunement is really, uh, you know, it's like two musical instruments that really are tuned to one another and when one plays, the other resonates. So, uh, creating rituals of connection, you know, like, we have a ritual every morning, you know, where, you know, I'll say, I'll ask Julie, you know, "What's on your plate today? What, you know, what's your day look like?" And she'll say, "Well, what does your day look like?" So we kind of check in with e- with each other. And then at dinner, we have another ritual of connection, you know, "Well, how was your day? You know, what, what happened? How did that, how did that session go?" And we kind of keep in touch with each other with these structured ways of attuning. And in that way, you don't lose touch. You don't make assumptions. You know, and we ask each other questions like, "What can I do this week to make you feel loved?" And, you know, when you have that kind of ritual, then, you know, you know you're connecting-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett28:52

      Yeah.

   5. JGJohn Gottman28:52

      ... and, um, and you're like those two instruments that are tuned to each other.

   6. JGJulie Gottman28:57

      May I add a little to that?

   7. SBSteven Bartlett28:59

      Yeah, go ahead.

   8. JGJulie Gottman28:59

      Um, empathy is super, super important. And I, I honestly believe that empathy is probably the most powerful tool we have to really create connection with one another. So if our partner is saying to us, "I'm really upset right now, I'm really angry that I'm doing all the housework," can you attune to that? Can you say, "First of all, tell me more. What, what is making that a burden for you?" So you're pulling information out. And then your partner might be saying, "Well, you know, it's like the second shift for me. I'm at work all day and then I have to come home and clean the house, et cetera. So I wanna share that with you." Okay. Can you empathize with her? Can you say, "Ah, no wonder, you're probably pretty tired when you come home, right? So you really do need my support. Is that what you're trying to tell me?" Mm-hmm. That's the attunement, you see.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett30:08

      I was gonna say, it's quite difficult, isn't it? 'Cause it often sounds like blame.

   10. JGJulie Gottman30:11

       Here's the difference. There's a big difference, and this is what we saw in the lab also. It is blame when there's a lot of you...... in what your partner is saying. For example, "You never clean up the kitchen. You are too lazy to do any housework at the end of the day. What about me?" You know, et cetera. So with that kind of blaming and criticism, nobody, nobody is gonna feel like, "Oh, you're absolutely right. You're really mad (laughs) at me because I've been a schmuck, and I haven't been helping you with the housework. And that's what you're telling me." No. What people have to do when they're unhappy about something is describe themselves. "I'm upset that..." What's the situation? Describe the situation. "I'm upset that the kitchen is a mess." Okay. That the kitchen is a mess is a situation. It's not saying you're a bad person-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett31:17

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JGJulie Gottman31:17

       ... you see? And then, step three, they need to say what their positive need is, which means how can your partner shine for you? Don't tell them what they c- they're not doing right or what you resent. Flip that on its head and say, "I would love it if you would help me tonight with the dishes."

   13. SBSteven Bartlett31:43

       My partner did that yesterday actually. She, um... And I, I noticed that she did it. So basically, she's in Costa Rica right now doing a retreat, and she sent me a text saying, "Babe, I love it when you tell me how the podcast went after you've finished recording it." Now, there's several ways that someone could have said that. She could have said, "I hate it when you don't tell me," for example.

   14. JGJulie Gottman32:04

       Right, right. That's right.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett32:06

       But she said, "I love it when you tell me." What she's telling me is to do it more. And if... I felt it to be really motivating?

   16. JGJulie Gottman32:13

       Mm-hmm.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett32:13

       That I'll do it more, so I started doing it more. I started telling her, sending her voice notes after the podcast.

   18. JGJulie Gottman32:16

       Uh-huh.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett32:16

       But I've also seen it in relationships where it's frame- framed at the... It's trying to get the same outcome, but it's framed in the opposite way. It's negative.

   20. JGJulie Gottman32:22

       Mm-hmm.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett32:23

       It's... You... I su- suddenly feel like I'm on the back foot and I've done something wrong, and I'm a ch- child being told off by my mother or something. Right.

   22. JGJohn Gottman32:28

       Right, exactly. And what is your first response to that?

   23. SBSteven Bartlett32:31

       Defensiveness. Uh, uh, deny it. Throw it back on them.

   24. JGJohn Gottman32:36

       No. Exactly.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett32:37

       Get defensive, yeah.

   26. JGJohn Gottman32:38

       Yup. And that's one of the predictors, you know, a smaller predictor but still a predictor of relationship unhappiness.

9. 32:46 – 35:17

   Why does typical couples therapy often fail?

   1. JGJohn Gottman32:47

   2. SBSteven Bartlett32:47

      Why does typical couples therapy fail, John, in your opinion?

   3. JGJohn Gottman32:53

      Well, you know, it's not failing very much anymore. There are some very good approaches now. Some behavioral approaches that are working pretty well, and emotionally focused therapy is working much better. So things have improved, uh, but I think typically the reason that it fails is that the therapist doesn't really have the proper tools for either assessing a relationship... And most therapists don't do any assessment when a couple comes in. They don't look for, you know, what are the strengths in this relationship? And what do I not need to work on? And what are the challenges that I really need to work on? And not only don't they typically assess, but once, once they start working with a couple, they don't really have the tools, you know?

   4. SBSteven Bartlett33:40

      'Cause I heard with therapy, it's all about listening.

   5. JGJohn Gottman33:43

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett33:43

      You know? And, uh, the study I'm, I'm citing here is that, um, traditional couples therapy only had a 35 to 50% success rate.

   7. JGJohn Gottman33:49

      Right.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett33:50

      Um, and you typically think of therapy like you go there and your job is just to listen to your partner as they tell you what's wrong.

   9. JGJohn Gottman33:57

      Yeah, right.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett33:57

       Why doesn't that work?

   11. JGJulie Gottman33:59

       Because they're telling you typically what's wrong with you, and the therapist isn't stopping them, isn't saying, "That's criticism. That's not gonna work. That is gonna sabotage you getting listened to, so try this instead. Try telling your partner what you feel and what you need instead of describing your partner and what's wrong with them."

   12. JGJohn Gottman34:24

       I actually saw at a conference, I'm not making this up, somebody who was training therapists. And this, this therapist that was doing the training played a videotape in which a husband said to his wife, "You know, Sheila, you're such a bitch. You only think about yourself." And the therapist said, "Sheila, can you summarize and reflect back what Harry just said and empathize with him?" (laughs) I thought, "God, you know, what an idiot."

   13. JGJulie Gottman34:56

       (laughs)

   14. JGJohn Gottman34:56

       I mean, nobody can empathize with insult and put-downs. You know, why isn't she constraining the way Harry's talking to Sheila, not just Sheila listening? So I think a lot of times therapists really don't know how to use a tool. They don't know what really is appropriate, what a good relationship

10. 35:17 – 38:45

    The 7 Principles of a successful marriage

    1. JGJohn Gottman35:17

       looks like.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett35:18

       What a good relationship looks like. I'm really keen to understand the principles of what successful couples do. From your research, you've highlighted a few of those things. I mean, you've got the seven principles of successful marriage.

    3. JGJohn Gottman35:29

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett35:29

       What are some of the most important of those principles?

    5. JGJulie Gottman35:32

       First of all, um, we call the first principle building love maps. You need to keep asking your partner open-ended questions to know who they are. Open-ended questions are questions like, "So what characteristic would you like to pass down from your family to our child?" Or, "What would be your ideal way of celebrating Ramadan or Christmas?"

    6. SBSteven Bartlett36:03

       Yeah.

    7. JGJulie Gottman36:03

       Or whatever holiday. So you're asking your partner questions with answers that have paragraphs, not a one-word answer, in order to keep in touch with who your partner is, what their values are, what their priorities are, what their needs are, what their feelings are, because those change over time as you're together.... turning toward, we talked about. That was super important. Expressing fondness and admiration is very important. So you can feel love, and if you don't tell your partner you love them or express it with touch, which is incredibly important, then your partner may not be all that sure that you still do love them five years down the road. Of course, managing conflict is incredibly important, and that's where we've probably done our most significant work. But in addition to that, it's honoring each other's dreams. Dreams meaning what are your hopes and aspirations for the future? They're not gonna be compatible. They're not necessarily gonna be identical. It doesn't matter. Can you support your partner in realizing their own dream and fulfilling that? And finally, creating shared meaning, which means every one of us is a philosopher. We have our own ideas about what our purpose in life is. Well, do you tell your partner what that is for you, and do you hear that from your partner? That's the sharing that's needed.

    8. JGJohn Gottman37:52

       And (laughs) the weight-bearing walls.

    9. JGJulie Gottman37:55

       And trust and commitment, of course. So trust builds over time and trust is essentially answering the question, "Will you be there for me?" In all kinds of different situations. "Will you be there for me when I'm sick, when I'm depressed, when I wanna celebrate a success, when I'm frustrated? Will you be there for me?" And nobody will be perfectly, but the more, the better. So that's-

    10. JGJohn Gottman38:24

        (clears throat)

    11. JGJulie Gottman38:24

        ... trust. And commitment, of course, is are you letting your partner know that this relationship is your journey for life? You are here for life, not for, you know, the next three weeks and then you'll think about it again.

11. 38:45 – 40:45

    Do partners' dreams need to be aligned?

    1. JGJulie Gottman38:45

    2. SBSteven Bartlett38:45

       Why is having expressed dreams so important? Because I often think that about sort of my relationship. I think our dreams are not the same. They're very different. And sometimes I wonder and I've wondered, and I think we've both wondered in my relationship, whether that is a big, big issue, if it matters. But why is it so important to express your dreams to your partner? And-

    3. JGJulie Gottman39:09

       (sighs)

    4. SBSteven Bartlett39:09

       ... do- do they have to be aligned?

    5. JGJulie Gottman39:11

       Okay. Number one, they don't have to be aligned. That's one of the big myths of all time. You have to be compatible. You have to have the same dreams, the same passions, the same interests. Wrong, wrong, wrong. That's not true. In fact, oftentimes we're attracted to people who are different from us.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett39:30

       What happens when the dreams are in conflict, though? Say if one partner's dreams is to live in Australia and the other partner's dream is to live on, I don't know, America.

    7. JGJulie Gottman39:37

       You know, there are certain situations where one person's dream is the other person's nightmare. And they're, they really don't have a compromise that's possible. So the one you described, I had a couple like that, where she lived in Switzerland, he lived in Uganda. She had an autistic son, and that autistic son needed desperately a very good support system to help him cope with the differences that he lived with every day. So she wanted to stay in Switzerland. He worked for the government in Uganda. He was making a contribution there. He did not wanna move to Switzerland. And she knew she wouldn't get the support for her son in Uganda. So they had incompatible, totally incompatible dreams, but there was no compromise here. So they ended up breaking up, but they knew why they were breaking up and it was for good reason.

12. 40:45 – 48:41

    69% of our problems are not solvable

    1. JGJulie Gottman40:45

    2. SBSteven Bartlett40:45

       Are some problems solvable then and some problems not solvable?

    3. JGJohn Gottman40:50

       Yeah. It turns out 69% of all problems are not solvable. They just... You know, we're not attracted to people who are like us, and then once we get together, we find those differences, although initially very attractive, pretty annoying, you know?

    4. SBSteven Bartlett41:08

       (laughs)

    5. JGJohn Gottman41:08

       So it's really great that he's so spontaneous, but then why can't he ever spick- stick to a plan? (laughs)

    6. SBSteven Bartlett41:15

       (laughs)

    7. JGJohn Gottman41:15

       You know, and that becomes a source of irritation. And unless people can really be enriched by those differences and learn to accept the differences, they're gonna be in a lot of trouble. So when we looked at over time at what people fought about, it was 69% of the time it was the same issues.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett41:33

       And what you- you call this perpetual problems.

    9. JGJohn Gottman41:35

       Perpetual problems, yeah. And once you pick somebody to have a relationship with, you've automatically inherited the problems you'll have for the next 50 years.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett41:44

        These are problems you can't solve, really.

    11. JGJohn Gottman41:46

        Right. But you can adapt to them and laugh about them.

    12. JGJulie Gottman41:50

        And compromise around the edges.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett41:53

        Okay. So what's an example of a perpetual problem in your relationship?

    14. JGJulie Gottman41:57

        Oh my god.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett41:58

        (laughs)

    16. JGJulie Gottman41:58

        Okay. So, um, y- John, first of all, he's wearing, you know, a, a Jewish yarmulke. He thinks this is a halo, right?

    17. SBSteven Bartlett42:08

        (laughs)

    18. JGJohn Gottman42:08

        (laughs)

    19. JGJulie Gottman42:08

        So, you know, he's... I, I'd honor that.

    20. JGJohn Gottman42:11

        I'm always innocent.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett42:11

        (laughs)

    22. JGJulie Gottman42:11

        He's always innocent. Okay. So he calls me obsessively, compulsively, neurotically tidy, and he is charmingly sloppy. Okay. So we have a huge difference. (laughs) And so, um, here's how we've coped with it because environment is not...... is just not important for him. And for me, it's super important. It will disorganize my mind if my environment is disorganized. So, when things start to get to me, there's too much mess, too many papers, books, I can't make the bed because I'm trying to lean over a four-foot tall pile of books and I may break my neck if I try to make the bed.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett42:56

        (laughs)

    24. JGJulie Gottman42:56

        So, it gets to that point and then I'll say to him, "Honey, I really need you to please clean up the books in the bedroom." He'll say, "Okay." Then he won't do it. Then I'll ask the next week, I'll say, "Honey, it's, you know, I'm, I'm really wanting you to clean this up, please." He said, "Okay, I will." But then he has to, I don't know, do something else so it doesn't happen. Week three, I say to him, "Okay, honey. I've said this now twice. I'm starting to get annoyed." He'll say, "Okay. All right. I'll think, uh, I'll figure out when I can do it." Week four. (laughs)

    25. SBSteven Bartlett43:44

        (laughs)

    26. JGJulie Gottman43:44

        We're counting down. I say, "Okay, we've crossed the threshold."

    27. SBSteven Bartlett43:48

        Yeah.

    28. JGJulie Gottman43:48

        "I'm now angry. I really need you to clean up the books now, please." And I become a pushy Jewish broad. That's what happens. And he goes, "Oh." (laughs)

    29. SBSteven Bartlett44:02

        (laughs)

    30. JGJulie Gottman44:03

        And he says, "Okay. Okay." Because I'm bigger than he is-
13. 48:41 – 51:19

    What to do when your partner wants to change you

    1. SBSteven Bartlett48:41

       is I'm very involved with technology in my work.

    2. JGJohn Gottman48:45

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett48:45

       So sometimes it's felt, in relationships that I've had, that the person is trying to take my work away from me.

    4. JGJohn Gottman48:51

       Mm-hmm.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett48:52

       So because they're always complaining e- that I'm on my phone or I'm on my laptop or whatever-

    6. JGJohn Gottman48:56

       Mm-hmm.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett48:56

       ... I'm thinking, like, they, they're trying to change me in a way that I'm unwilling to change. I'm not... I, I love my work. I wanna, I want that to be a big part of my life.

    8. JGJohn Gottman49:05

       Right.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett49:06

       How, how do I go about solving for that?

    10. JGJulie Gottman49:08

        So... And that person wants you to do away with the technology some of the time, right?

    11. SBSteven Bartlett49:14

        That's how it feels, yeah.

    12. JGJulie Gottman49:16

        That's how it feels. Okay. So, you need to have a conversation where each of you interviews the other person and asks six questions. Let me go through those just really quickly. What are your beliefs, values, and ethics that are part of your position on this issue, you know, wanting to stay with the technology? Do you have some background or childhood history that relates to your position? Why is this so important to you? What do you feel about your position here? What is your ideal dream here? What do you really wish for? If the world could be just like you wanted it regarding this issue, what would it look like? And is there some life purpose or goal in this for you that is really important? As you answer those questions, Steven, she's gaining an inside look into what's deepest and most important to you regarding this issue. Then, then you ask her the same questions, exactly the same ones, to understand where she's coming from, right? And what that cr- creates is much more understanding and compassion for one another about why each position is so important to that particular partner. Then you try to work on compromise, like I described.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett50:51

        Interesting.

    14. JGJulie Gottman50:52

        But those questions are fundamental. If you just argue on the surface, you're not gonna get anywhere. You're gonna stay gridlocked. "I love my work, I wanna do my work, period." Well, does she know why your work is so important to you? What life purpose that is serving for you? Does she know that, way down at the core of who you are?

14. 51:19 – 58:21

    The four horsemen

    1. SBSteven Bartlett51:19

       In your research, you discovered something which has become pretty iconic when we talk about relationships and conflict, which is this idea of the Four Horsemen. Um, you found that during conflict, couples who show four key behaviors mean that an argument is doomed, and it's the worst way of arguing, i.e. like really nothing can be gained beyond that point. John, what are the Four Horsemen and how was this discovered?

    2. JGJohn Gottman51:41

       Yeah, it... You know, Bob Levenson and I, uh, first looked at just the ratio of positivity to negativity in a conflict discussion. And the first thing we discovered was that among the masters that ratio was five to one or higher, and among the disaster couples it was .8, average .8 to one.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett52:03

       What does that mean? Sorry, five to one.

    4. JGJohn Gottman52:04

       So if you take the number of seconds that they're showing, displaying interest, curiosity, affection, humor, uh, shared humor, validation, listening to one another, uh, you know, saying things like, "Hmm. Oh. Yeah. Tell me more. Oh, wow. Oh, good point," you know, things like that, and you divide that by the number of seconds that they're angry, upset, you know, disappointed-

    5. JGJulie Gottman52:29

       Critical.

    6. JGJohn Gottman52:29

       ... hurt, critical, uh, defensive, belligerent, you know, all these negative ways, these hostile ways of interacting, that ratio of positivity to negativity was five to one or higher among relationships that work well.

    7. JGJulie Gottman52:44

       During conflict.

    8. JGJohn Gottman52:45

       During the conflict, yeah. So but the second thing we wanted to know is, well, are all negatives equally corrosive? You know? And the ones that were the most corrosive really involved that person starting off and saying, you know, "As far as I can tell, I'm pretty much fine, but you're defective. Here's what's wrong with you," and they started with this criticism that they thought was constructive criticism, you know, and they hoped their partner would respond by saying, you know, "God, you're so insightful," you know? "Tell me more about how I'm failing." But instead what they got was defensiveness, counterattack or the innocent victim posture, and that was, that was the second horseman of the apocalypse. The third one was contempt, and that was the worst. That was the best predictor of relationship breakup of all, that criticism from a place of superiority. "I'm better than you," you know? Uh, you know, "I, I correct your grammar even when you're angry," or, you know, "I think I'm more punctual and that's really important," or, "I'm tidier than you are," or, "I'm better informed than you are." That sort of snobbery that... You know?

    9. JGJulie Gottman53:56

       Mm-hmm.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett53:56

        Looking down on their partner.

    11. JGJulie Gottman53:58

        May I add something, hon?

    12. SBSteven Bartlett53:59

        Sure, go ahead.

    13. JGJulie Gottman54:00

        With contempt also you've got things like name-calling, you know, calling people bad names, sarcasm, mockery. Sarcasm can have a real cutting edge. It can be funny, but then it crosses over into hurt.

    14. JGJohn Gottman54:17

        And the fourth horseman is stonewalling, which was particularly a guy thing to do. 85% of the time guys would stonewall. They just shut down and they don't give these cues to the speaker that they're listening. They're not nodding their heads or moving their facial muscles or uttering these vocalizations like, "Mm-hmm. Oh. Mm-hmm." You know, they're not doing that. They just kind of shut down and look away and...... you know, and we found those people's physiology is really elevated.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett54:48

        So it wasn't about whether couples were arguing or not, 'cause we typically think a relationship is doomed if the couple are, like, screaming at each other.

    16. JGJulie Gottman54:54

        Again, it depends on your definition.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett54:56

        Okay.

    18. JGJulie Gottman54:57

        So screaming at each other is one form of argument, and there are certain couples that are volatile where both partners are volatile, they're very passionate, they're very intense, they may raise their voices. But depending on what's coming out of their mouths, is it criticism? Is it contempt? Is it defensiveness? If it's any of those, it's not gonna work, but you can also scream, "I'm so furious about this," still describing yourself. That's not gonna be a bad thing.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett55:35

        Why is it men... you said, talked about stonewalling there, where you kinda shut down and you, you kind of go within yourself and ignore. Why is it that men do that more than women?

    20. JGJohn Gottman55:44

        Well, what I think is that we men are much more easily physiologically aroused, and the differences are that we secrete vasopressin and women secrete oxytocin, much more than vasopressin. And so for us, we get... once we get physiologically aroused, it takes us a long time to calm down, and most of what we feel when we get physiologically aroused is anger and aggression, and we wanna shut our partner down. We're much more aggressive than women are. And so we shut ourselves down, you know, and when you look at the dialogue that people have in their minds when they're stonewalling, it's usually stuff like, "Just shut up and don't say anything." You know, I... you know, "You always make it worse when you say something, so just be quiet. Endure this." And that's kind of a male response.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett56:41

        Do men have more of a physiological response to arguments, i.e. like the-

    22. JGJohn Gottman56:45

        Yes.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett56:45

        ... sweating palms and blood pressure?

    24. JGJohn Gottman56:47

        I think so.

    25. JGJulie Gottman56:47

        You know, through evolution, women have been responsible for nurturing an infant. In order to do that, you have to have a milk letdown response, right? Through evolution. So here's what I mean. Let's say, you know, we're back 3,000 years, right? There's no formula in a can, so women are breastfeeding their infants. In order for that breast milk to come down and in, in order to be released to the infant, oxytocin is really important. Oxytocin calms you down. It relaxes you. If you're very tense and uptight, milk isn't gonna come down, at all. So women have the physiology in which to relax more easily. Men, on the other hand, through evolution, have been the protectors, right? So if there's a saber-toothed tiger attacking a group of people, who's gonna jump up and defend against that tiger? Well, the men are, typically. So men's bodies are really built to stay vigilant and hypervigilant, especially for attack. Well, that attack doesn't have to be physical. It can also be mental, emotional, verbal, and men will have the same

15. 58:21 – 1:03:31

    What is flooding?

    1. JGJulie Gottman58:21

       response.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett58:22

       We're talking about flooding here, aren't we? The concept of flooding?

    3. JGJohn Gottman58:25

       We're talking about flooding, yeah.

    4. JGJulie Gottman58:25

       Yes. Yes.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett58:25

       What, what is flooding, John?

    6. JGJohn Gottman58:27

       So flooding is really going into fight or flight. It's, it's when we start secreting cortisol and adrenaline, our two major stress hormones, and when we feel attacked, when we feel unsafe, you know, we start secreting these stress hormones. And there are implications, psychological implications, of being p- physiologically flooded. You can't take in new information. You rely on over-learned habits, like aggression or flight, you know. You, you can't listen very well. Your... actually, your hearing is compromised. Your peripheral vision is compromised. You focus only on the cues you need to survive the moment, and so it's... y- you're... you don't wind up being a very creative problem-solver or a good listener when you're flooded.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett59:19

       If men flood more than women, does this go to explain why men tend to avoid arguments more than women? 'Cause I think that's a stereotype, at least, that men are much more avoidant in arguments. I think... I mean, it's a stereotype that holds true to me. I've never been sure whether it's because we're not good at expressing our emotions or if it... there's a physiological reaction in me that making me go, "Ugh."

    8. JGJohn Gottman59:40

       80% of the time, women are the ones bringing up issues in a relationship. Now, when guys bring up the issues, sometimes the women get flooded too, so-

    9. JGJulie Gottman59:49

       Mm-hmm.

    10. JGJohn Gottman59:50

        ... it's not that women don't get flooded, you know? Yeah, they're a little better at self-soothing than we are, but you know, during, during an argument, if a woman gets flooded, she really can't listen also and she repeats herself as well, gets more strident, you know?

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:08

        If I'm flooded then, typical advice tells me, John, it says never fall asleep if you and your partner have been arguing about something.

    12. JGJohn Gottman1:00:16

        Yeah.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:16

        What is the best... I get flooded sometimes. What is the best way for me to deal with that?

    14. JGJohn Gottman1:00:21

        If it's late at night, you should go to sleep.

    15. JGJulie Gottman1:00:24

        (laughs)

    16. JGJohn Gottman1:00:25

        Go to sleep angry. I mean, Saint Paul was the one who started that, and he wasn't married. You know?

    17. JGJulie Gottman1:00:29

        (laughs)

    18. JGJohn Gottman1:00:30

        So it's... you know, it sounds like great advice, but if it's gonna keep you up and, you know, you're gonna get a terrible night's sleep, you know, shake hands and go to bed. (laughs)

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:41

        What if-

    20. JGJohn Gottman1:00:42

        Give each other a quick kiss and go to bed angry, and, uh-

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:45

        What did he start? Saint Paul?

    22. JGJohn Gottman1:00:47

        Hmm?

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:47

        What did Saint Paul start?

    24. JGJohn Gottman1:00:48

        Never go to bed wrathful.... I think, is what his advice was for couples.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:55

        And that's wrong?

    26. JGJohn Gottman1:00:56

        Yeah.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:57

        Okay. So if I, if I'm in the middle of an argument and I feel like I'm a little bit flooded, my, maybe my palms are a little bit sweaty, I should take a timeout, is what you're saying, Julie?

    28. JGJulie Gottman1:01:05

        Yeah. Let's talk about that.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:07

        Mm-hmm.

    30. JGJulie Gottman1:01:08

        Um, so if you're feeling flooded, um, you really need to take a break, but there's specific steps to do that. One, uh, if you're flooded, you say, "I need to take a break," you don't say, "You do." "I need to take a break," and say when you'll come back to continue the conversation. If you do that, then your partner is not gonna feel abandoned and rejected. You go apart for maybe 30 minutes, an hour, however long, maximum 24 hours, and you don't think about the fight. Don't plan your rebuttal. (laughs) Because that'll keep you flooded as long as you keep thinking about the fight. So do something self-soothing, like reading a book, reading a magazine, working out maybe, going for a run.
16. 1:03:31 – 1:06:31

    What's a 'caretaker' in a relationship

    1. JGJohn Gottman1:03:31

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:31

       I've sometimes rebuttaled myself, Julie, when I talk, when I say what I just said about our relationship would be fine if she never brought issues up, because when I zoom out and I go, "The issues she's brought up, have they m- made our relationship better? And had she not brought them up, would we have drifted?" Would we have drifted? And I say, "Probably."

    3. JGJohn Gottman1:03:49

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:50

       See what I'm saying? Like, I feel like my partner has always played a role in keeping our relationship close.

    5. JGJohn Gottman1:03:55

       She's the caretaker.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:57

       Yeah.

    7. JGJulie Gottman1:03:57

       Yes.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:58

       Is that a real thing?

    9. JGJulie Gottman1:03:59

       Yeah. That totally is a real thing. What we saw in the research is that 80% of the time women bring up the problems-

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:07

        Right.

    11. JGJulie Gottman1:04:07

        ... in a relationship, 80%, you know?

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:11

        Mm-hmm.

    13. JGJulie Gottman1:04:11

        Vast majority. And I think it's because, again, women, you know, we talked about how men are raised in society, well, women are raised in society to nurture, to create connection, to maintain the family unit, right? To create relationship and make sure the relationship is good and solid and secure. So we were raised with feeling that responsibility for the relationship being good. And when we detect something isn't so good, we're gonna bring it up.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:47

        And that's what causes a lot of the frustration is that we, we don't realize, we don't have empathy for how the other person is playing a role in creating the whole almost.

    15. JGJulie Gottman1:04:56

        Mm-hmm.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:57

        That make sense?

    17. JGJulie Gottman1:04:57

        Mm-hmm.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:58

        Because I, I understand, as I said, my relationship wouldn't be as good if my partner didn't bring up issues.

    19. JGJulie Gottman1:05:04

        Mm-hmm.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:04

        But when she brings up issues, I'm like, "Why are you bringing up issues?"

    21. JGJulie Gottman1:05:07

        (laughs)

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:07

        You know what I mean? And it's that, having that empathy.

    23. JGJulie Gottman1:05:10

        Sure. Sure. But again, um, is she bringing up issues in a way that doesn't feel blaming or critical?

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:19

        Sh- to be honest to her, she is. (laughs)

    25. JGJulie Gottman1:05:24

        (laughs)

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:24

        She's bringing them up pretty well.

    27. JGJulie Gottman1:05:26

        Great.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:27

        It's the way that I'm kind of interpreting it-

    29. JGJulie Gottman1:05:28

        Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:30

        ... I think is much of the problem.
17. 1:06:31 – 1:08:34

    Conflict misunderstandings

    1. JGJohn Gottman1:06:31

       a guy."

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:31

       Mm-hmm. Julie, what do we misunderstand about conflict? Because, you know, I've come to believe that the key to understanding if a relationship will be successful over the long term is how well the, the pair resolve conflict.

    3. JGJulie Gottman1:06:42

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:43

       Is that right? Wrong?

    5. JGJulie Gottman1:06:45

       Well, clearly, uh, as we said, because 69% of all problems are perpetual, they are not gonna be solved. So if you rely on seeing problems getting solved as an indicator of the success of the relationship, it's not gonna look good, right? So, you know, what I think-What we need to understand about conflict, that we've written about in our last book, is that if we apply the dictum of really understanding our partner and their point of view before we work on trying to resolve the problem, we're gonna do much better.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:31

       Hmm.

    7. JGJulie Gottman1:07:31

       Conflict also gets a really bad rap. You know, conflict, you're not supposed to have conflicts. It means if you have a relationship with a lot of conflict, that means it's a bad relationship. Total myth. That is not true. What we've seen is that couples who do fight, but they fight right, as we wrote about, with the tools that are describing their own feelings and needs rather than blaming the partner, then they're gonna really understand each other so much better as the underlying dreams within the conflict come out, the underlying family history comes out, the life purpose comes out. Think about those big questions in the heart of a conflict, that if they are understood, oh my God, you know so much more about your partner than you did before.

18. 1:08:34 – 1:11:41

    How to become a master at conflict resolution

    1. JGJulie Gottman1:08:34

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:34

       Conflict. How do I become great at conflict? And is that really what I should be aiming at? Should I be aiming at getting, becoming a master of conflict resolution?

    3. JGJohn Gottman1:08:43

       I think so. Uh, you know, it's not conflict resolution as much as it is conflict management. And my secret is that notebook in my back pocket, you know? So I get it out, you know, when we have to talk about something important, and I listen to what she's saying.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:59

       Is it in your-

    5. JGJohn Gottman1:09:00

       I write it down.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:00

       Is it in your pocket now?

    7. JGJohn Gottman1:09:01

       It's in my pocket now. You know, have it right here.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:03

       I'm thinking of getting one.

    9. JGJulie Gottman1:09:05

       (laughs)

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:06

        I'm thinking of getting one. (laughs)

    11. JGJohn Gottman1:09:08

        Yeah. It's really great, you know?

    12. JGJulie Gottman1:09:11

        Take notes.

    13. JGJohn Gottman1:09:11

        And so like if I say to her, she's upset, you know, or she wants to talk about something important, you know, I'm listening, I'm taking notes. So, you know. And as I'm writing stuff down, it calms me down, and I, I'm writing it down. First I'm, first I'm saying, "Why does she keep bringing up issues?" You know? (laughs)

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:29

        Yes.

    15. JGJohn Gottman1:09:29

        I don't wanna spend my evening this way, but then I go, "Oh, that's a good point. That's, that's interesting." You know? And I start realizing that she makes a lot of sense.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:40

        Is part of that moving the issue from your amygdala to your prefrontal cortex, i.e., it's moving it from your emotional center to your logical center?

    17. JGJohn Gottman1:09:46

        Yeah.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:47

        Yeah.

    19. JGJohn Gottman1:09:47

        I really am.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:48

        'Cause that's, that, when you were saying it, I was like, that would be, you used the word, it calms me down?

    21. JGJohn Gottman1:09:53

        Calms me down.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:54

        That would help calm me down as well.

    23. JGJohn Gottman1:09:56

        Yeah. Yeah.

    24. JGJulie Gottman1:09:56

        Sure. When you're taking notes, you know, it's more an intellectual process-

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:01

        Mm-hmm.

    26. JGJulie Gottman1:10:01

        ... as opposed to an emotional process, right? So it takes you out of that emotionally getting stirred up by what your partner is saying and into just processing the words, the language, writing it down-

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:15

        Mm-hmm. One time-

    28. JGJulie Gottman1:10:16

        ... which keeps you calm.

    29. JGJohn Gottman1:10:17

        I f- One time I filled up an entire yellow pad.

    30. JGJulie Gottman1:10:20

        (laughs)
19. 1:11:41 – 1:19:22

    How to repair/fix relationship issues

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:41

       attempts. You write about repair attempts in your books. What is a repair attempt, John?

    2. JGJohn Gottman1:11:46

       You know, here's the interesting thing, is that most people don't repair very effectively. The way an argument starts is the way it'll go f- 96% of the time. So, uh, I had this woman named Nancy Dreyfus who came to my lab, and she had written a book of things you can say when you're starting to get flooded in an argument. It was a brilliant book. It's called Talk To Me Like I'm Someone You Love. And it was really interesting, but she had written these things down when she was very calm, and she wrote the book that way. (laughs) But we actually went to the lab and looked at how do couples actually repair when they try to repair? And what we found was that anything that you would do in a business meeting will fail in a love relationship. "Let's take a look at our options and evaluate them. What are our priorities here? What's our fundamental goal? Let's talk abou-"

    3. JGJulie Gottman1:12:43

       Let's be rational about this.

    4. JGJohn Gottman1:12:44

       "... let's, let's be rational about this. Let's evaluate the costs of one option versus another." Doomed. (laughs)

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:50

       Hmm.

    6. JGJohn Gottman1:12:51

       And the only thing that worked with somebody s- was say, you know, "God, you know, I'm sorry, I, I said that, you know, let, let me try again." Or they would say, you know, "We-...um, I'm really starting to feel defensive. Could you, could you say that a gentler way?" And those kinds of repairs that focused on emotion, they worked, and the earlier they made them in the conversation, the more effective they were.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:16

       So, these are attempts to repair the relationship-

    8. JGJohn Gottman1:13:18

       Right.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:18

       ...or the argument from one side of the argument, Julia?

    10. JGJohn Gottman1:13:21

        Right.

    11. JGJulie Gottman1:13:21

        Yes, in the middle of the conversation. So, if one person senses it's getting off track, to get it back on track, they may say one of these repair phrases. But if the repair's going to be successful, the other person has to accept the repair. So, if John is saying to me, "Hey, I'm starting to feel defensive. Can you say that, you know, in a gentler way?" I could either say, "No way. Forget it. You deserve all the criticism." Which is rejecting-

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:57

        The repair, yeah.

    13. JGJulie Gottman1:13:58

        ...the repair, or I could say, "Ah, you're right. Let me, let me try again," and say it a different way. That's accepting it. But there's also repair after an argument that has felt horrible, and then how do you process and repair that terrible communication you had? That's a whole nother-

    14. JGJohn Gottman1:14:21

        That's what I was about to say.

    15. JGJulie Gottman1:14:22

        ...type of repair.

    16. JGJohn Gottman1:14:23

        Yeah. (laughs)

    17. JGJulie Gottman1:14:23

        Of course it was. Here, wink, wink.

    18. JGJohn Gottman1:14:25

        Right.

    19. JGJulie Gottman1:14:26

        We're telepathic.

    20. JGJohn Gottman1:14:28

        Yeah, so that, coming back to it, we have a method for doing that, a five-step method for revisiting a really regrettable incident that may have happened in a relationship when you're calmer, and, and that's very effective.

    21. JGJulie Gottman1:14:44

        Mm-hmm.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:45

        What is that fi- Please give it to me.

    23. JGJulie Gottman1:14:47

        Yeah.

    24. JGJohn Gottman1:14:47

        Yeah, describe that.

    25. JGJulie Gottman1:14:48

        Let me do that one. Okay, so it, we actually have a little booklet that has all this structured out that a lot of people keep in their glove compartment because some, for some reason, arguments happen when you're going 70 miles an hour down the freeway, right? Never fails. So, pull out the book. Okay, in the booklet, the first step is each person addresses a list of emotions that we've printed out and says out loud which emotion they had during this regrettable incident, first of all. And they can name as many as they want, and there are things like hurt, angry, abandoned, rejected, and so on. Secondly, each person has a chance to describe their point of view about what happened from beginning to end of this incident while the other person, here we go again, takes notes. So, at the end of the person's narration, they then summarize what they heard that person say to make sure they got all the good points, and then says something validating, like, "Okay, from your point of view, I can see why you felt that way." The way it's narrated is crucial. It, it sounds like, "I felt that you were angry at me. I saw this angry look at your face. I heard you say, 'Leave me alone and get out of here.'" I heard, I saw, I felt-

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:24

        Mm-hmm.

    27. JGJulie Gottman1:16:24

        ...I imagined. So, it's all about I. It's not saying, "You said this mean thing to me," which is critical. All right, so each person has a chance to share their perception that way, and their partner summarizes and validates what they heard. Third, people look at, "Did I have any feelings during this that were actual triggers, that were feelings that got started long before this relationship?"

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:56

        Right.

    29. JGJulie Gottman1:16:56

        "In another relationship maybe, or even at home with my caretakers or my family?" If those feelings got triggered again here and now, then you share what feeling got triggered, which we call an enduring vulnerability, and say where it may have gotten started before this relationship. That's step three. Step four, you're finally taking responsibility for what you contributed to this regrettable incident by saying what was your state of mind when it happened, "I was really stressed. I needed time alone," you know, et cetera, and then specifically saying what you regret saying or doing during the incident and apologizing for it. Now, note how late the apology is coming. You're not apologizing right away because that doesn't work. You don't know what you're apologizing for if you haven't first heard the impact of that incident on your partner. So, step four is apologizing and then hopefully your partner accepts your apology. And finally, step five is saying one thing your partner can do differently, one thing you can do differently to avoid something like this from happening again. Then you're done.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:20

        The repair attempt somewhat sounded like n- h- I was gonna say backing down, but it was more like taking an objec- one of you taking an objective view on the situation and kind of stepping outside and saying, "I'm feeling like this."
20. 1:19:22 – 1:22:25

    What have you learnt about the role of kissing

    1. JGJulie Gottman1:19:22

       That's great.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:22

       Interesting. What about sex and intimacy and these subjects? What have you learned about the role of kissing-

    3. JGJohn Gottman1:19:30

       (laughs)

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:31

       ... in the love lab?

    5. JGJohn Gottman1:19:32

       Interesting. Yeah, I mean, you know, we haven't done a lot of research on sex. We, uh, we did some in that newlywed study 'cause sex had gone down dramatically for most couples, uh, even three years after the first baby was born. And so we were asking people how did they cope, how did they keep sex alive? But the biggest study done on this question was done, uh, in a book that came out called The Normal Bar. Uh, Christiana Northrup is the first author of that, and they analyzed 70,000 people in 24 countries, and tried to discern what's different about people who say they have a great sex life and people who say they have an awful sex life? How are those two groups of people different? And they discovered that it was the same across the whole planet, and there are really about a dozen things that people do who have a great sex life. And saying, "I love you" every day and meaning it is one of them. Giving compliments, uh, romantic gifts. Having a lot of touch. Cuddling. So of the people who don't cuddle, only 4% of them said they had a great sex life. 96% of the non-cuddlers had an awful sex life. So touch is very important, even... Physical touch even in public, affection in public was a big thing. And really, you know, that kind of connection, the romantic date, you know, the romantic vacation, that's what they did. So nothing involved kissing or what happened in the bedroom, so none of that is there. But there has been research on just kissing, and it turns out that not every culture do humans kiss. But in the ones they do, kissing is very powerful, very erotic for most, most couples, and it's a nice gateway into eroticism.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:32

       I found this really interesting study, um, in your work where it said, a, a ten-year German study that found that-

    7. JGJohn Gottman1:21:38

       Right.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:38

       So again, you, you can repeat the study better than I can.

    9. JGJohn Gottman1:21:40

       Men who kiss their wives goodbye when they leave for work live something like four years longer than men who don't. So... And that's a perfunctory kiss, you know?

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:51

        (laughs) I mean...

    11. JGJulie Gottman1:21:51

        Don't forget, Steven. (laughs)

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:53

        They're getting murdered. (laughs) They're being murdered?

    13. JGJohn Gottman1:21:56

        But the six-second kiss, which we recommend, has much more potential than that peck on the sheek- cheek.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:03

        What is the six-second kiss?

    15. JGJohn Gottman1:22:05

        A kiss that lasts at least six seconds.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:07

        Why not five or four or two?

    17. JGJulie Gottman1:22:08

        (laughs)

    18. JGJohn Gottman1:22:08

        Because, uh, oxytocin gets secreted. With a 20-second hug or a six-second kiss, you're both secreting oxytocin, and that creates a sense of psychological safety and connection.

    19. JGJulie Gottman1:22:22

        And bonding.

    20. JGJohn Gottman1:22:23

        And bonding.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:24

        What,

21. 1:22:25 – 1:29:58

    The role of sex in a relationship

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:25

       what do you think about the subject of, um, sex, Julie, and, you know, how important it is for a relationship? How much should we be having sex? Does it really matter?

    2. JGJulie Gottman1:22:33

       Mm.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:34

       Is it a predictor of long-term success in marriage?

    4. JGJulie Gottman1:22:36

       Great questions, um, that my clients ask me a lot. And there's huge variability in sexual preference. Some couples actually don't wanna have sex at all. Both people don't wanna have sex. They'd rather have kind of a sibling relationship almost. If they're both content with that, then they can have a very successful relationship. Some couples really wanna have sex a lot, you know, all the time, and it's a really important component of the relationship, uh, and everything in between. When you run into trouble is the following, and I've seen this so many times. The men who I guess I would say are hyper-masculine, they think that cuddling is too infantile so they don't wanna cuddle, and the only way they can accept physical contact, which they desperately need, is through sex, period.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:41

       Pe- penetrative sex.

    6. JGJulie Gottman1:23:42

       Penetrative sex, that's right. And the woman has 17 children, she's trying to make dinner, you know, she's exhausted. Um, she may not wanna have sex nearly as much as he does, so he begins to feel deprived of touch. But instead of complaining about that, he says, "We're not having enough sex."

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:05

       Hmm.

    8. JGJulie Gottman1:24:05

       And she says, "I'm not getting enough affection." And there you have, you know, some conflict that has to get sorted out, so-

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:15

       It's like they're speaking two different languages of intimacy-

    10. JGJulie Gottman1:24:18

        Yeah.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:18

        ... if you know what I mean, 'cause-

    12. JGJulie Gottman1:24:18

        Basically, in a sense, they are. They are. Though, typically, the men in these relationships really basically need touch, and can they accept cuddling as something that's just as masculine as penetrative sex? Well, if they really think about it and if they experience it, then yeah, you c- they can. Then things really will tend to improve.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:48

        The research that John is suggesting though is you said that life is fl- foreplay.

    14. JGJulie Gottman1:24:53

        Right.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:53

        Because if, if like the, the kissing on the way out the door and the touching my partner's back and the cuddle leads to a better sex life, then we should see life, public displays of affection, all that kind of thing, as an investment in what happens tonight in the bedroom.

    16. JGJohn Gottman1:25:08

        Right.I think that's really true. Every- every positive thing you do in a relationship is foreplay. And the couples who... a lot of times the couples who stop having sex have also shut down, high-conflict couples who stop having sex-

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:22

        Hmm.

    18. JGJohn Gottman1:25:23

        ... have shut down other things, other sensual parts of their lives as well, you know? They're not having much fun. And, you know, 80% of the 40,000 couples we studied said that fun had come to die in the relationship. There wasn't much play, there wasn't much adventure. It wasn't just sex. Everything shut down. All the things that were really delightful, you know, exploring new kinds of cuisine, you know, traveling, uh, playing games together, you know, playing sports together, you know?

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:57

        How do we stop that happening, though? You know? 'Cause I've often wondered, people have often said to me that eroticism and attraction is about novelty and spontaneousness and doing all that kind of thing, and then they've said love is about familiarity and, you know, s- comfort, which a- these are two opposite things.

    20. JGJulie Gottman1:26:17

        Well, let me answer that. The person who said that it's all about spontaneity and mystery and so on has never done any research. The research shows that the familiarity, the emotional connection, really knowing your partner creates, in the long run, much more passion, what... much better sex, actually, than maintaining mystery but not really connecting to one another the way people need to.

    21. JGJohn Gottman1:26:57

        There's a wonderful book by Emily Nagoski called Come As You Are-

    22. JGJulie Gottman1:27:00

        (laughs)

    23. JGJohn Gottman1:27:00

        ... that reviews this research, and it shows that, first of all, women have more prerequisites for eroticism than men do. Chevy Chase once said, "Women need a reason for sex, men need a place."

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:27:14

        That's right.

    25. JGJohn Gottman1:27:14

        That's all. (laughs) So, you know, but it's true. Men... men don't need to feel safe to feel sexual. Women do. Women need to feel psychologically safe, and that means emotional connection. It also means there can't be a long to-do list of things that they have to get done that's been neglected. The dog's been taken out, you know, and has done his business, and all of that. And then the situation feels erotic to a woman, and she's receptive.

    26. JGJulie Gottman1:27:48

        Let me point out something in addition to that that most men don't know. At least in the United States, one out of four women have been sexually molested or sexually assaulted by the age of 18, and that's only the women who report it. It's probably one out of three, maybe 40%, including the ones who haven't reported it. So when women have that history, not to mention thousands of years in their bones of being seen only as sex objects and being raped, you know, every other day, you get to understand why women need safety, much more so than men.

    27. JGJohn Gottman1:28:42

        You know, we wrote a book called The Man's Guide to Women to convey all of these bits of information that have been researched. So familiarity is the basis for eroticism, not for... the absence of eroticism. That's a myth.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:59

        So I've heard a lot about epigenetics recently, which is this idea that trauma can be passed on from one s- one generation to the next. And with that in mind, if women have been sort of sex objects throughout history and have been raped and those kinds of things, it's understandable that, as you say, Julie, that-

    29. JGJulie Gottman1:29:14

        Mm-hmm.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:29:14

        ... they have, like, an in-built need for safety that men might not understand in the same way?
22. 1:29:58 – 1:32:18

    Our society is becoming more sexless

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:29:59

       (laughs)

    2. JGJohn Gottman1:30:00

       (laughs)

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:00

       Interesting. Okay.

    4. JGJulie Gottman1:30:02

       (laughs)

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:02

       Are you seeing a difference in our relationship with sex, um, as the world is changing? 'Cause there's some stats that suggest we're getting more and more sexless as a, as a society. Have you seen any changes-

    6. JGJohn Gottman1:30:15

       Hmm.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:15

       ... in your 50 years studying love towards attitudes about sex or... You know, gender roles have changed in that time as well in society, so...

    8. JGJulie Gottman1:30:23

       You know, I wouldn't say it's sexless, but I would say it's loveless, more loveless. In the sense... Uh, you know, again, I don't know what it's like in England or in other countries so much, but in the United States, the hookup culture is a- is, you know, alive and thriving. There's so many websites in which, um, men and men, women and women, men and women are just hooking up, meaning meeting up for the first time, having sex, and departing. The end.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:58

       Is that a problem?

    10. JGJulie Gottman1:31:00

        Yes.

    11. JGJohn Gottman1:31:01

        (laughs)

    12. JGJulie Gottman1:31:01

        You know why? Because in that kind of sex, there's no emotional connection. Zero. And I've heard this from both men and women, actually, that when they leave, they feel more empty.... than before they started having that sex.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:31:22

        Why do you think that is?

    14. JGJulie Gottman1:31:23

        No emotional connection. It's impersonal sex. They don't know who they're having sex with, so, you know, it's almost like masturbating, practically. So, you know, there's a lot of couples who are doing that, but they're, they're not committing in long term relationships as much as they used to. And I think there are several factors involved in that. One is they've seen their parents divorce, so they don't believe in marriage or commitment as an institution that they should live too. Um, secondly, women have come into the workforce again in the last 50 years, and career is equally important to many women as it is to men. Right?

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:32:17

        Do you

23. 1:32:18 – 1:37:50

    Men struggling to figure out where they fit into society

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:32:18

       think, on that point, do you see issues with women becoming more successful and that emasculating men to some degree? Because I read about a study that, um, said there's an expectation in society for men to provide more at home financially, and then a separate study showed that, um, women and i- women's sort of equality with men in terms of their pay and education has, is getting closer. And then the third study says that men f- can feel emasculated in the presence of a smarter, more successful woman, and they find it less attractive.

    2. JGJulie Gottman1:32:57

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:32:58

       So if you put all this together and you go, okay, women are getting richer and more intelligent, um, men are emasculated by that, but men still have this ex-social expectation that they'll pay the bill-

    4. JGJulie Gottman1:33:06

       Mm-hmm.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:33:07

       ... in that framework, you go, Jesus Christ, this is gonna be difficult for-

    6. JGJulie Gottman1:33:10

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:33:11

       You know? And you, you could look at it another way and say there's less of a pull for women who typically want to date men that have a certain level of education and a certain level of money. The pull is smaller than ever before.

    8. JGJulie Gottman1:33:22

       Hmm.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:33:22

       So is this a ... You know, this is some of the issues of the mo- some of the challenges of the modern world.

    10. JGJulie Gottman1:33:28

        You're right.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:33:28

        Yeah.

    12. JGJulie Gottman1:33:29

        You're absolutely right about that. The roles are really changing. And, um, you know, I remember this feeling myself actually as I built my career and John and I were together. And I kept thinking, "No, no, no, I should be a housewife. I should just be a mom. I should just be taking care of the home. I shouldn't be devoting all this time to my career, but I love my career. I wanna work." And so there would be this turmoil inside about, "Who should I be?" And I think men are feeling that too. For example, as I said earlier, men are really wanting to be fathers more, but how can you be an involved father when you're working like crazy, extra, overtime, to make more money? Right?

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:34:18

        Mm-hmm.

    14. JGJulie Gottman1:34:18

        It's impossible. Also, those old myths have a hard time falling away, that men who make more money have more status, have more value as human beings, are better partners. That's so not-

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:34:35

        Are more male, yeah.

    16. JGJulie Gottman1:34:36

        Are more male, are more masculine. It's so not true. Another thing to keep in mind is that women used to make 79 cents for every dollar that men made. Now they make 81 cents for every dollar. You think that's a big change? It is not. So women are still fighting for equality in terms of career opportunities, work opportunities, and so on, and valuing their career. Men sometime, you know, are struggling, "Who should I be now? I used to be the provider. Who should I be?"

Episode duration: 2:06:42