The Happiness Expert: Retrain Your Brain For Maximum Happiness! Mo Gawdat

1. 0:00 – 1:14

   Intro

   1. MGMo Gawdat0:00

      The most resilient parasite is not a bacteria, it's not a virus. It is a thought, and it shapes everything.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:06

      He is an expert on the topic of happiness. Google made him the head of Google X. The return of Mo Gawdat.

   3. MGMo Gawdat0:13

      I know people will hate me when I say this. Dating is an entirely an economics problem. When you don't know what you're looking for, then you're advertising wrong.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:21

      How do you find out what you're looking for, though?

   5. MGMo Gawdat0:23

      If you wanna find love, it's very straightforward.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett0:26

      At the- the last line in your book, you say, "Please find the compassion in your heart to want happiness for my wonderful son, Ali."

   7. MGMo Gawdat0:33

      Why did you bring that up? We were having an easy conversation. (instrumental music plays) I wrote Solve for Happy at a time where Ali had just left our world, and he helped me really, really figure things out. We think that this brain is supposed to be there to make us successful. Your brain is supposed to make you happy. I feel that the top three reasons for unhappiness in the world are...

   8. SBSteven Bartlett0:59

      Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music plays)

2. 1:14 – 6:45

   How have things changed for you since last time?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett1:14

      The return of Mo Gawdat.

   2. MGMo Gawdat1:17

      Oh, man. No pressure. (laughs)

   3. SBSteven Bartlett1:20

      (laughs) I mean, I don't really know what to say. So, our first conversation, as you'll know, as I've said many times to my audience, is still to this day my favorite podcast episode of all time, for so many reasons. It had everything that I've all- ever wanted from a conversation. It had the personal story delivered in a way with immense honesty and vulnerability and wisdom.

   4. MGMo Gawdat1:45

      Mm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett1:45

      I learnt so much from that conversation. And of all the conversations I've had, whenever I'm asked, wherever I go, I say that that conversation is the conversation that's had the most profound impact on real fundamentals of my life than any other. The words that you said then still show up at pivotal moments in my life, when I'm feeling a certain way or I'm letting something getting- get the best of me, and it's really, really liberated, um, me of so many things. So when I heard you were back in London, I had to have another conversation with you.

   6. MGMo Gawdat2:15

      It's an honor. Honestly, thanks for asking.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett2:18

      I have to ask, s- since we spoke, what's changed in your life? And how does your life look now?

   8. MGMo Gawdat2:26

      Ah, ever-changing, uh, interestingly. I'm on, um, you know... And 2000, uh, uh, 20 was my year of silence and space. 2021 was my year of flow. And then at the beginning of 2022, I asked myself, "What will this year be about?" I take a theme for every year, because it's sort of an interesting way to guide your life, in terms of where you wanna go. Uh, I don't like targets. It's too business-y when you come- when it comes to your own connection to yourself. And 2022, I decided will also be a year of flow, but I called it the year of joy and flow, which is really interesting. So, so, so to me, believe it or not, as I worked through the years on empowering more of my feminine side, and, you know, creativity, uh, paradoxical thinking, flow, all of those sometimes appearingly not so disciplined, uh, traits are- are hyper-feminine, and they're very valuable, in terms of enjoying life, but also seeing the full reality of life, if you want. Uh, I did very well in 2020 with my approach to flow. I went wherever life wanted me to go. But I was still the same Mo, you know, very targeted, very focused, very able to get the maximum out of everything. Uh, around that, of course, there has been a lot of interesting repercussions of our conversation that basically allowed me to write more, to connect more. I tend to be very personal when it comes to my presence on social media. So got in touch with so many wonderful people, and I think that's created waves of flow, if you want, in my life, whereby, uh, by end- by end of April, I packed everything up that I had in Dubai, put it in a tiny little storage space. I've always been a min- a minimalist anyway, so it wasn't much. And now I have no idea where I'm going from here. Completely in flow.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett4:28

      What does that mean, you have no idea where you're going from here?

   10. MGMo Gawdat4:31

       I'm in London because of my book publication, uh, until end of the month. And then we'll find out.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett4:41

       There's something quite curious about that, because I think we tend to believe that we need stability, or a home, or, I don't know, those home comforts to make ourselves happy. So, and I- I think about some times in my life where I, where I was a freelancer, kind of like drifting through the world. I could do it for a short period of time, but in the long term, I ultimately craved that sense of home again. So y- you-

   12. MGMo Gawdat5:05

       I- I think we need both, right? I think we- we need the balance. I think the story that most of us don't realize is that every one of us wants an adventure, and every one of us wants stability. Every one of us wants, at that point in time, a long-term committed wonderful connected relationship, and a little- a- and- at other times, wants the parties, and the fun, and the, uh, you know, rush and experience and- and so on. And I think context is a big part of what we miss as humans. That- that through life, context changes, okay? And I- I've- I've been on a- on an interesting journey, because of course, you can imagine, I have always been extreme in whichever stage I had been in my life. When I, when I became a, you know, a- a business executive, I was a very serious business executive, you know, the- the 12, 14-hour days, the, you know, the constant, uh, hopping around the world and so on and so forth. And when I became an author, I became a very serious author, you know? I- I started to really, really spend a lot of hours wi- writing, and you know, documenting my, uh, my thoughts, and I write two or three books at the same time. When you're extreme in those things, you tend to be...... quite a bit, um, blinded, if you want, by the pace, hmm, by the detail. You're, you're swamped into it, and it does take, uh, um, does take challenging yourself, if you want, to, to get to a point where you say, per- perhaps, perhaps this was wonderful for my last seven years of my life, but perhaps, you know, context has changed. Perhaps I need to, to explore another part of my life to reach that point where I feel complete.

3. 6:45 – 11:03

   The signal for you to “move and flow”

   1. MGMo Gawdat6:45

   2. SBSteven Bartlett6:45

      And was there something that, some kind of signal that life gave you that said, "It's time to pack up and flow"? What was that?

   3. MGMo Gawdat6:53

      For most of us who rush really fast in life, we don't even recognize what we feel. We don't ev- uh, even recognize what our hearts, what our souls, what our bodies are signaling to us. And, uh, and I think there has been a very strong longing in my life, uh, to, to live that idea of, um, I call it half monk, uh, which, you know, uh, uh, interestingly, again, the way we stack life is quite strange, and so you, you, you, you, we work really, really, really hard for the first 30 or 40 years of our lives, and then we retire when we can't really enjoy life, you know? It's like when you retire, you're basically taking your stick and going to wherever, Florida or whatever, um, when it's actually the way life should be is that you probably should take the 10 years of retirement, divide them across the 40 years, and perhaps take three months off every year. If, if we were to redesign life, you know, it would be wonderful to work seven months of every year and take three month- or nine months of every year and take three months off. Similarly, uh, you know, if you look even at the spiritual path of some, uh, um, uh, some of the most renowned monks in the world, you go through a certain path through life, and then you stop completely, and then you go become li- a monk com- you know, for, for a, for a, for a while, and then, you know, you may come back to life or become something else. And I decided there would be an interesting ambition, uh, to, to, to investigate the possibility of maybe 50% of your life as a monk and 50% as a modern day warrior, as I call it, right? And I took the number 50 because that's how mathematicians will work. I'll start from the midpoint, and then, you know, rotate around it. Maybe I'll end at 60 or whatever, okay? And it's actually interestingly possible. It's interestingly possible to, uh, spend 50% of your days, uh, in, in monk-like activities, which would be connection, reflection, uh, you know, um, som- some stillness and silence, some service, uh, to the world, and 50% completely engaged in, uh, you know, writings, and writing I consider is a service, but you know, like business and business conversations and, you know, coaching and whatever it is, uh, e- else that I do, being stuck in traffic and so on and so forth, okay? And it wa- it was a stupid ambition, but then it started to become a lot more viable in my mind, that actually I could do that, uh, 50% of every day, 50% of every week, 50% of every year could actually be spent that way. And, and then, and the thing you need to, to make that happen is to step out of the mainstream of your steady life, okay? So I had a wonderful conversation with my, uh, manager, Munir, who, uh, you know, really wants our success and the success of the mission, but that sometimes makes him push me very hard to add stuff in my calendar, and I said, "Can you allow me the life of a creative? So can you cram my Tuesdays and Wednesdays to the point where I start hating you, but then leave my, uh, rest of the week free with one day that is negotiable between us?" Okay? And that basically is even better than 50/50, huh? So, so in those two days, I'm completely a modern day warrior, completely engaged in, you know, whatever the modern world wants from me. But then that allows me the rest of the week, if you want, to do the other things that may allow me to find and reflect and maybe, maybe figure something out that is so much better for the days where I get, uh, engaged, right? So if my, if my work is to spread some ideas, then silence to find those ideas is actually useful for it. And so that was the, the feeling. You said what, wha- what was the, the signal. The, the feeling has been there for quite a bit of time, and then when the landlord said, "Hey, by the way, want the apartment back," I was like, "Great, let's do this. Let's leave the mainstream, okay? Let's go somewhere and see where that takes us, see where, where serendipity will, will show us." I think that's an interesting place to be.

4. 11:03 – 15:14

   Are you single?

   1. MGMo Gawdat11:03

   2. SBSteven Bartlett11:03

      Are you single?

   3. MGMo Gawdat11:08

      (laughs) Ah. (smacks lips) I am single and not single. I th- you know, oh, that, that may get a lot of people judging me. Uh, so I, again, in an interesting way, uh, found that my current lifestyle does not qualify me, if you want, for a committed relationship, okay? But that... A committed relationship is one specific definition of relationships that I think our world has stuck to for a period of time that evolved, okay? There are multiple, multiple, multiple definitions of relationships today. I think if you, if you look back 20 years, uh, f- 30 years at most, you would realize that that singular traditional model excluded all same sex relationships, all bisexual relationships, all this and all of that. It also included, uh, it also excluded relationships that were not, uh, f- 'til death do us part and so on and so forth. I found, and I say that with worry that people will judge me, I found that what I'm doing is more important to me at the moment...... uh, than a traditional committed relationship. Okay? Uh, simply because I feel that an hour spent, uh, with one person, uh, could also be an hour that I spend, um, helping a thousand people. Okay? And even though that hour for me, uh, uh, is definitely enriching and fulfilling and so on and so forth, it becomes sometimes, um, is the commitment associated with it doesn't make it an hour. Normally makes it several hours, makes it a ch- a big chunk of your life that I lived for 27 years and loved. And I would say it's the absolute best way to live altogether, right? But it's definitely not something that from a current phase of my life where the f- the, the, the focus of where I want to put my chips, if you want, my hours of my life, is where I want to be. And so I end up when in, in very, very connected, very deep, very, uh, wonderful and loving relationships that are super honest but not lasting. Uh, you know, if my life will take me from here to somewhere else, I will not consider sticking around here as a prerequisite to find ... or I, I, you know, being a prerequisite to find a, a relationship more important than my journey of finding what I need to be. I, I learned that interestingly when I spoke to my dear friend Matthieu Ricard on, on Slow-Mo. So, so Matthieu is, uh, is probably one of the most renowned monks in the world. He, uh, was a PhD in molecular biology if I remember, and he quit his life and went and became a monk, and he had 60,000 hours of lifetime meditation, which reconfigured his brain in a way that, uh, that was publicly, uh, uh, very, very interesting science study. He was called the happiest man in, in the world because of that. And I asked him and I said, "Why, Matthieu? Why, why would you leave your life and your girlfriend and your, you know, your ..." He, he, he was French living in Paris, "and your PhD and, and go and become a, a monk." And he, he said, "It would be very unfair, uh, to have, uh, someone in my life expect me to be there all the time, when what I wanted was my pilgrimages and to be next to my teachers and my time of isolation and my alone time in my hermitage and so on and so forth." He basically said, "It's not a promise I can make. If I make it, I would be lying." And I think that probably was a very enlightening moment for me, because there are many things I give up on in my life that would make my life richer, uh, but they're perhaps not on my path, uh, at least not for the time being.

5. 15:14 – 21:46

   Recognising phases in your life

   1. MGMo Gawdat15:15

   2. SBSteven Bartlett15:15

      Is this a ... Do you view that as a phase in your life or do you view that as-

   3. MGMo Gawdat15:18

      Definitely. Everything is a phase in your life. Definitely. Definitely. I think that's the, the, the, the change in context, uh, Steve, is probably the biggest failure of humanity. Hmm? The change in context is, um, we have a tendency because we are designed as survival machines to want things to remain exactly the same. If it's comfortable, if it's safe, let's keep it. Right? I want my same coffee machine every day because I know that machine, I know it really well, I can make amazing coffee with it, right? And so of course when it's time to pack things, I needed to hug that machine and say, "Okay baby, I'm not gonna see you for a few months." Hmm? But the truth is, there are many places all over the world that will make an amazing m- coffee too, right? Uh, that attachment is one of the biggest reasons for unhappiness in life. Hmm? It's the idea of I want my glass of water, I don't want a glass of water, I want my mug, I want my glass of water, I want my streets, I want my commute every day, I want my job security and so on and so forth. Which is beautiful and by the way, every single one of us needs to live that for a phase of our life, for a season if you want. Okay? But that failure to recognize the changing seasons sometimes results in a narrowness of our life that makes us stick to one path. When, when, when, when we spoke about you, you, you, you started as a CEO of a marketing very successful business, and now you're a podcast host, you're an author, you're on Dragons' Den and so on and so forth. That's a recognition within you, hmm, that this phase has served its purpose and there is something else I need to do with my life. And by the way you could go back to that same phase, right? You could become a CEO again at a point in time, hmm, and it's that seasonal view of life. And, and big part of flow, w- you know, where, where I'm trying to live my life now is to recognize those seasons, is to say, look, I, I had an amazing, amazing woman for 27 years, right? And I had a family, I have been there, I have done that, I've enjoyed it tremendously, it enriched my life. But it left g- gaps behind that need to be fulfilled or completed with other phases and other seasons, okay? And, and I think the game here is to be able to allow yourself to rather than plan and say, "My safety, my security, my everything," to allow yourself to sit back and say, "What i- where is ... What's, what's life saying? Is life hinting that I should be in London? I can be in London. Let me be in London." Right? "Let's see." Maybe at the end of that season nothing's gonna happen, you're gonna go like, "Oh, it was just very good coffee and a conversation with Steven," right? A- and, and it could be that, you know, "Oh my God, it was the best coffee of my life and the best conversation I ever had." Right? And, and I think that, uh, wisdom, if you want-... uh, it depends on if you're spiritual or not. If- if you believe that there is a part to you that is not physical, call it consciousness or call it s- a soul if you're spiritual, that part is- senses things that are a little bit beyond the limitations of the physical. They- it might sense, th- you know, a need for the rest of being, someone else somewhere that may benefit from my presence in London, or maybe a, uh, uh, a need in- within me to get a little bit of rain, which I hadn't seen for a while. I don't know, right? And if- i- i- the- the way, the way that other part of you communicates to you is through intuition. Mm. It- it cannot plant a text message in your head and say, "By the way, by the 14th, you need to be in London." It just gets you- gives you that feeling of something is missing from here and something needs to be attended to there. Do you want to investigate? And I found from the spiritual teachers, happiness teachers, and actually business teachers that I worked with in my life, that those who are ab- who are able to go like, "Let me find out. Okay. Let me find out. Let me check this out." Hmm. Normally stumble upon some of the biggest changes to- to our lives, all of us, not touch- just their lives. And, you know, and it's- it's quite interesting because, um, if you really look back at your life, really most of the events that actually shaped you, that actually changed your lives were not planned at all, you know. There probably tho- were always those surprises and often were the surprises you didn't want, okay? And then somehow you go through with them and you end up in a place that suddenly you recognize and go like, "Ah, that's why I've been walking for the last 14 days." And by the way, the- the game, I- in my view, I- I- I say life is a quest, it's not a journey, okay? And the difference between a- a journey and a quest is when you're on a journey, you've sort of plotted your path, okay? I'm gonna take that flight. I'm gonna go to this place. I'm gonna stay in that hotel. Um. It's a journey, right? And it will eventually end up in a destination, right? A quest is very different. A quest is Christopher Columbus taking a crew on a ship and in the middle of the, you know, fog, hmm, not knowing where the new world really is, okay? That's a quest. You don't- you don't really know where the destination is. Hmm. You're basically taking a couple of steps forward and then stopping and then looking at the fog and then assessing and then reflecting and then saying, "Maybe I should take a step left." And then you take one step left and then you say, "Okay. How does it feel now? Do I wanna go to- forward again or do I wanna go one step back?" And by the way, there's absolutely nothing wrong with taking two steps forward, assessing, going to the left and then saying, "Uh, left wasn't what I was supposed to do. I'll go back and take a step to the right and- and see what happens."

   4. SBSteven Bartlett21:24

      But like Christopher Columbus, you- you set off on your quest, and I'm sure as Christopher Columbus did for a reason. You wouldn't load up the ship and put all those men on the ship and get a boat and... There- there has to be some kind of inspiration or some kind of-

   5. MGMo Gawdat21:40

      Absolutely.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett21:40

      ... reason why you set off. I- tha- that's the question I want to ask, but I was also compelled by, you said you were in a relationship for 28

6. 21:46 – 30:01

   Did you feel like something was missing?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett21:46

      years and eventually there's something missing.

   2. MGMo Gawdat21:50

      Yeah. There's always, there is always something missing.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett21:54

      What was the, what was missing?

   4. MGMo Gawdat21:56

      So- so f- let's talk about the big picture first, uh, because I think people need to understand that. There's nothing wrong with having anything missing, okay? But we are a very complex being, hmm, that is made up of so many emotions and so many reflections and so many traumas and so many stories and backgrounds and desires, hmm. And we live in a very, very, very, very unsimplifiable world, okay? And yet we try to simplify it rather than try to enjoy it fully, okay? When you- when- when they tell you, uh, sweet and sour chicken in a Chinese restaurant, hmm, it's not just a little bit of sweet and a little bit of sour. There is a ton of flavor happening within all of this, okay? There is- there are layers of complexity that creates a life that's worth living. And for a- for every one of us, it's that attachment. Hmm. It's the attachment of, "But I like this, I don't want to change this." That deprives us of all of the other flavors, right? Nibal and I, I- I believe Nibal made me. My- my ex-wife. She- we met when she, uh, was 18 in university. Uh, we fell in love madly, we got married, uh, the day she finished university. Uh, you know, w- we spent 22 years together, uh, with our beautiful ch- children and then life changed. Context, the context changed. Ali left our world, my son, and when Ali left our world, I hit the pedals and went double speed. When Ali left our- left our world, Nibal, on the other hand, looked at her life and said, "F- for the first time, I can now focus on me." My- my children left. One went to university in Canada, Aya, and Ali, uh, left the world to his next journey, and you know, simply she- she looked at herself and said, "Okay, it's my time." Hmm. "I'm not gonna define my life by you anymore. I can't travel the world with you because of your passion and your, uh, mission and what you've now assigned yourself as the new task, I'm going to find what I want to do with my life." And I- I think that's wonderful. If you're- if you ask me, that's definitely what everyone should do. Now with that contradiction, it- we became further and further apart. Remember, love and relationships are not ever taken for granted. I- I always say this openly. I fell in love with Nibal six times.Okay? I fell in love with that cute girl that I met in university. Then I fell in love again when she became my wife, because when you're- you're girlfriend and you're wife, you're two different people. And by the way, I was her boyfriend and her husband, th- these are two different people too. And now suddenly, we're left with those boyfriend, girlfriend gone, and the husband and wife looking at each other and saying, "Where is my sweetheart?" Right? And then suddenly, you know, most people would get into that stage in one of those constant changes, and- and say, "Hey, you know, I don't like this. I- I want my sweetheart back." You know, it's an attachment. Hmm? Or, you can go like, "Okay, the sweetheart is gone, but oh my God, this one is so cute." Right? And when- when you actually see it that way, you fall in love again, with a totally different person, and then again, and then again. I- I believe I counted six times. Okay? And then eventually, when we wanted to- to have our different, uh, uh, focuses in life, I would call that falling in love again, but slightly differently, because you see, the- the- the- the- the thing that we m- miss in life is, we define love... L- love is too big, if you ask me, as a concept, to fit within romance. Okay? We've- we've narrowed love down to that story that Hollywood told us, which is love is just romance, okay? It's a- it's a romantic relationship between two people. It has intimacy in it, and it has to be this and that, and they have to live that way. Okay? The truth is no. I- I believe there are 20 ways two partners can enjoy and benefit from the company of each other, and grow together, uh, two of which are sex and intimacy, and we've defined love, uh, uh, per- as per sex and intimacy. Okay? Is it... So if she- if she's not your woman, as in- as in you're sleeping together, does that end the love in any way? Okay? Uh, you know, as a matter of fact, if- if it ends the love, then it was never love, if- i- if you really think about it, huh? And- and so we- we define, uh, uh, our- our relationships that way, and I- I think that's a recipe for disappointment, because in reality every rela- uh, every relationship will always go through those changes. There will be times where sex won't be great, and there will be other times when your spiritual connection is at its best and, you know, it- it really is entirely around, again, the layers, and the flavors, and how you can choose each one of those and embrace it, and grow it, and- and- and make it a- a- a prom- ... Uh, l- li- live it as much as you can with that person. And yeah, if- if one of them ends, uh, my feeling is that the rest sh- should not end. The rest should grow.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett27:16

      You more than anyone though, after those 20-plus years of being in a committed relationship, will understand the value of that committed relationship, and, um, the place that it would, I'm presuming, add value to your life now. But I guess there's an equation you're doing about what you would- what would come at the expense of that, and it sounds like, from my perspective, the thing that would come at- at the expense of that is your mission, your freedom, which you are also spending some time to really e- indulge in.

   6. MGMo Gawdat27:45

      N- n- ... No, I'm ... As- as I ... I think- I think we all make those choices all the time, it just suddenly becomes quite contentious when it's about love and relationship. Okay? But you know what? You- you know, I left an apartment that I enjoyed because I needed to do something else, right? I am here in London where- uh, when I could be in, uh, Silicon Valley, for example, because they wanted me to talk about innovation there, because I need to be in London because I want my next book to succeed, right? So- so we ma- we all make those, uh, you know, choices all the time. Hmm? And- and life, sadly, is a question of compromise, because, you know, you- you- you- you c- you of- you often say that, huh? The best of both worlds doesn't happen. You can't- you cannot have best of both worlds. You can- you can either say, "I'm living fully, hmm, as my number one priority to achieve A, and I'll achieve as much as I can of B, as long as it doesn't contradict A," or you can say, "I'll go for B, and you know, I'll sacrifice a bit of A for that." Right? And- and it's interesting, because most people, especially the romantics, will say, "How can you sacrifice love? You know, love is the most important ..." No, a billion happy is more important than love, uh, in all honesty, for me, in my- to my personal love. Okay? Because in- in- in my capacity to- to feel love for a billion people, okay, uh, and- and actually try and dedicate my life to as many as I can reach with that, I tend to believe that's- that prioritizing my own comforts and my own life and my own settlement, if you want, being settled, is selfish, to be honest. It's- it's a different phase. It hopefully will happen in two, three years' time, but it's not the phase now. It's not the right time for it at all. Okay? And yes, I wish I could get A, B ... g- uh, get A and B, and maybe I'll stumble upon that wonderful woman that is completely aligned and, you know, spends the- the- the ... my trips with me, and you know, supports this, and if I do, that's amazing, but if I don't, what would I prioritize? It's ... Life is a question of choices.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett29:59

      You could be doing anything with your

7. 30:01 – 32:37

   Why did you decide to write this book?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett30:01

      time.

   2. MGMo Gawdat30:01

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett30:02

      You know? You- you're- you're clearly someone that is ma- being very intentional about the use of your time, and making sure that every hour of your time is allocated towards what you want, whether that is playing video games, whether it is writing a book. So, why did you choose to write a book called That Little Voice in Your Head?

   4. MGMo Gawdat30:21

      (laughs) I feel that the top three reasons for unhappiness in the world, uh, w- without competition beyond that, like, they are by far bigger than all of the others, are...... uh, um, ego, lack of self-love, and actually in order it would be lack of self-love, ego, and that little voice in your head. Okay? And- and the little voice in your head, as I, as I say at the beginning of the book, that I would dare say that there has never been a moment in your life where any event had the, uh, power to make you unhappy until you turned it into a thought. Okay? So- so anything could happen. It's the story you tell yourself about it that makes you unhappy. It's not the event. It's the story, right? And so if my- if I'm true to my commitment to try and make the world happier, then I need to talk about those three topics in three different, uh, books if you- if you want, or maybe some content of some form. But- but that's not the point. The point is, what st- ha- what s- what struck me and really, really puzzled me, was that I realized, uh, when I wrote Scary Smart, uh, and, you know, Scary Smart was entirely about technology and where technology is going and so on, I realized that we humans have the ultimate technology in our heads. A brain that is so sophisticated, so capable of doing things that are really, really beyond the capacity of any supercomputer still today. And yet, we know how to use our smartphones and our devices better than we know how to use that brain. Most people get trained on how to use Excel, but they never really get trained on how to streamline the thoughts in their head. Okay? And- and that appeared to me to be a very interesting engineering problem. And so the idea was to create that analogy between neuroscience and computer science. So the- the book in my mind was, if I can show people that those brains, the neuroscience of them, is- is actually similar, very analogous to computer science and the devices you have in your hand, because people already know how to use those devices, then that knowledge would allow them to use the brain as good as they use the devices.

8. 32:37 – 39:32

   What illusions did you live under?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett32:37

      The Basics Here, which is the- the title of the first chapter of your book, and it s- and it feels like the first chapter really kind of introduces some of the inspiration behind you wro- why you wrote- wrote the book. You talk a lot about your wife and the illusions that you live under. What are the illusions that you- you live under? Or you lived under?

   2. MGMo Gawdat32:59

      Again, let's th- think about the bigger picture first. Everything that we have- you haven't visited and investigated and arrived at a competent, confident, uh- uh, conviction that this is your own view, is probably an illusion, okay? Which is quite striking, because for a man like me, who's spends a lot of his time reflecting, uh, we're surround- we're submerged in illusions. Okay? Everything from the value of a, you know, a branded bag all the way to, you know, what the TV is telling us, what the government is supposed to do and all of that stuff. Unless you've reflected on it and said, "Okay, I'm being told this. I'm, you know, uh, behaving this way which might be contradicting what I've been told, but I'm feeling that way which might be a third contradiction, and where is my reality?" It's safe to assume that this was an illusion. So- so pa- a big part of that little voice in your head is an admission of all of the mistakes I made using that machine in my life, or n- not all, but many, um, not even many, but many mistakes that I've made using this machine. N- not all of them. There are many more mistakes. Uh, one, uh, I think the biggest of them was a conviction in my early years that my kids were a burden, my family was a responsibility. Okay? Which does happen when they come to life when you're very young. I mean, I had Ali when I was 25. Uh, I was m- uh, uh, uh, just turned 26, uh, and- and I- and, uh, and, uh, you know, uh, I got married when I was 25.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett34:36

      Mm.

   4. MGMo Gawdat34:36

      So basically, you start to feel responsible. You start to prioritize work, you start to go out in that treadmill, uh, you know, the hedonic treadmill and just run, run, run, run, run, run. Okay? And- and the pressure that you- that you put on yourself when you do that makes you start to think, "Okay, they are the reason why I'm working so hard. They are the reason why I'm stressed." Okay? When in reality, if you had asked them, they would have said, "Papa, ju- just come play with us." Right? "We don't want more than what we have. It's me losing context and running like crazy that made me think that way." And the basics of the challenges we have with our brains, mm, is that we believe what our brains tell us. Okay? So when my brain tell me they are the- the- the burden, they are the challenge, my whole being responds to that. My whole being starts to behave that way. Okay? And- and I think what the reality, uh, that we miss when we do those things becomes, uh, what you have seen in the... if you- if you like the movie Inception, um, you know, when she- when his wife had that s- s-, um, uh, thought, uh, you know, "We're waiting for a train, a train," you know, basically that kept playing in her head over and over and over, that convinced her that this is not the real world, that they are in a dream, and that the way to go out of it is to die, that actually led her to committing suicide. And- and- and, you know, big opening of the movie that my favorite movie line of all time is, "What is the most resilient parasite?" Okay? And the most resilient parasite is not a bacteria, it's not a- a virus, it is a thought that you implant deep in your brain and believe in it over and over and over through your life. Mm. And it shapes everything. It shapes everything, interestingly, without you even knowing why you're doing what you're doing, is because b- because of that thought, because of that belief, because of that ideology.Mm? And people do the weirdest things. I, I have a very, very dear friend who's a brilliant engineer, brilliant engineer, who had that thought in his head, uh, he's now in his early 60s, that "If I tell my ideas to a businessman, he's gonna steal it." So every startup he ever attempted, he wanted to be the engineer and the CEO, okay? And as a result, everything he started failed, even though the ideas and the engineering, the- the- the rigor was incredible. Mm? But he just couldn't get that idea out of his mind. And, and you can go all the way to people who have ideas that lead to wars or to destruction or to terrorist acts or whatever, it's just one idea seeded deep enough in our head that really leads us to become who we are. And digging out that idea and finding it, that's the basic. Mm? The basic is to find those thoughts, mm? And how you can deal with them so that you eradicate them, so that you can actually live true to who you are, not the thoughts that have been implanted in your brain.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett37:44

      And how does one go about even knowing where to start that search for those sort of limiting or imprisoning thoughts that are-

   6. MGMo Gawdat37:51

      (clears throat)

   7. SBSteven Bartlett37:52

      ... have become the satellite navigation of our lives?

   8. MGMo Gawdat37:55

      It is, um, it's a moment of truth. It's a moment of honesty. Uh, you know, I, I think you started with that very, uh, "I d- I can't believe I spoke about that," (laughs) about the very personal question about my relationship choices, right? But that's a moment of truth. It's not that I don't want someone in my life, but it's that if that someone contradicts priority A, then priority A is actually what I stand for, right? And, and you get those by comparing what you're thinking to what you actually do and what you actually feel, and it's a very interesting exercise. Mm? If you're coherent in something, if you say, "I am vegan," for example, okay? If- if you identify yourself as vegan, but you crave eating animal protein and you feel that you're pressured, mm? Then you're not a vegan, okay? You could be a striving vegan, you're trying to be vegan, you could be i- an ideologist vegan, you want- you believe in the ideology of veganism, but you're not... Don't call yourself, "I am a vegan." Okay? You can then change that thought and say, "I want to be vegan." Okay? That's a different thought than, "I am vegan." And, and you can apply that to everything, to every part of your life. "I am in that partnership. Mm? I love her and I wanna stay with her forever. Mm? But I'm looking at every other woman, and, uh, I feel that I am in jail." Okay? Great, have that conversation. Mm? With yourself. Have that conversation with yourself, because what you're feeling is contradicting what you're doing is contradicting what you're thinking.

9. 39:32 – 45:07

   Our whole lives are a contradiction

   1. MGMo Gawdat39:32

   2. SBSteven Bartlett39:32

      So much of my life is filled with contradict-

   3. MGMo Gawdat39:34

      Absolutely.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett39:35

      ... contradicting. What does that- what does that say? So I'm thinking about, you know, I, I say that I wanna be in a committed relationship, but then I s- what I do is work all the time and want-

   5. MGMo Gawdat39:47

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett39:47

      ... to work all the time, and choose work all the time. Um, so what does that mean?

   7. MGMo Gawdat39:53

      What does that mean? (laughs)

   8. SBSteven Bartlett39:55

      You can tell me. I don't care. I'm no- I'm not gonna cry. (laughs)

   9. MGMo Gawdat39:57

      It is, uh, it's, uh, it's really, it is... Look, uh, you're not alone. All of us are, and it's not on one topic. It's on every topic, okay? So, so there are, as I always talk about, there are three compartments in our brains. Okay? One compartment is what I call compartment one, which are things that are true and we know are true, okay? The other is compartment three, which are things that are, uh, that are not true and we know they're not true, okay? And the majority of what's happening inside us, mm? Is what I call compartment two, which are things that are ne- undecided. We either don't know them, or we know that they're not aligned but we can live with them for now, we don't prioritize them. Mm? What matters is not solving them. What matters is marking them as compartment two. If you mark them as compartment two in your head, you go like, "Okay, hold on. This topic is unresolved. It's not within my priority today, but I need to come back to that topic." Just as, ju- just like my choice of relationships, right? Uh, you know, it takes a long time, mm? And a lot of experimenting after my separation with my, with my wife, to try and f- get to a point where I actually know, mm? Uh, that I'm gonna put in the time and investigate where I am in life. Mm? During, throughout that time, I, I acknowledge to myself and I say, "This is compartment two. I don't know what I want." I don't, right? And the point is, so many of those exist. If you live assuming that it's compartment one, you've completely messed up, right? Because your actions are not matching your f- your, your feelings and your feelings are not matching your thoughts, okay? You're not, you're not complete. You're not, uh, full. You're not settled, you know? We, we, we, you know, that, that idea of, uh, equilibrium, mm? Most people, the easiest way to imagine it, uh, visually is to imagine a pendulum, right? If your life is in equilibrium, it's in total balance, mm? That total balance is the point at which, uh, minimal effort is needed to lift. If you're in balance, you're not struggling, okay? Just like the pendulum. The pendulum when it's at eq- at its eq- equilibrium point, mm? You literally need zero force to keep it in the equilibrium point forever, you don't have to apply any force to it. You wanna push it a little bit to the right? Mm? You have to apply a force and keep that force for as long as you, you want it to stay within that place. And that's what we do with our lives all the time, that our nature, our balance, our equilibrium, mm? Is not exactly how we're living, and so we're constantly applying effort. We're constantly trying to be in a place, mm? That is not our natural place to be. We want to be there, so we apply the effort. Is there anything wrong with that? Absolutely not, because life is cyclical, okay? And life is all compromises, as we started. But the, the, the trick is to say, "When I am in that place," mm? "I am aware that this place is not my natural tendency, and I am...... okay with that because that place gives me A, B, and C, there is a utility to that place. At, at the same time, I wanna tell myself openly that I'm heading from that place to that point of equilibrium. What- it could- that could be by saying, "In the next seven years, I'm not gonna do anything about it, but in seven years' time, I'm gonna start to head in that equilibrium." Or you could say, "I'm gonna take a step every day for the next seven years." Whichever way you want. And- or you, by the way, or you can also tell yourself, "I don't care. R- I know it's not my equilibrium, but I'm gonna do it anyway because that's what I believe in." I think that's very much at the state I'm in, okay? If you ask me, I'd like to be in, you know, 50% of the year doing absolutely nothing, okay? With someone I absolutely love, with sim- a very simple life, but that's not my life every day, and I know that to be true, and I will do it for a while to go. You know? Because I have a- I have assigned myself something that I believe requires that effort. Okay? The other thing that humans do, most of us, is we leave a lot of pendulums out of equil- uh, out of equilibrium. So, so it's actually quite easy to tell yourself, "Look, my number one pendulum is my work. Okay? I'm gonna put that in equilibrium. Hmm? Then my second, uh, uh, uh, um, you know, um, um, um, pendulum in importance is relationship." Or reverse them if you want. The, the third is my impact, the fourth is my friendships, the fifth is my health, and so on. And, and then the game is if you want your work to actually benefit, put the others in equilibrium. Okay? Or acknowledge to yourself that they're not, but you, but, but don't complain about it. Don't feel bad about it. Okay? And if you do that, you manage to then simply focus yourself on the one that is your most priority, and then life is, in an interesting way, linear that way. In, in physics, it's basically it's- it's instead of the parallel processing of trying to fo- fix all of them at the same time, you're simply saying, "I'm gonna pr- process them in series. I'm gonna fix this work element pendulum first, and when it's done, I'll fix the next one, and then when it's done, I'll fix the next one." And it's a constant journey, so you're not alone. I'm exactly like you. Constantly, constantly searching and constantly reflecting and investigating and finding that equilibrium.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett45:05

       Just going back to something you said there about

10. 45:07 – 59:01

    The economics of love

    1. SBSteven Bartlett45:07

       what you probably want, is it a case that you don't believe you could live a life where you have priority of your mission, one, one billion happy, and a partner who is, is not impeding on the mission?

    2. MGMo Gawdat45:23

       No. Absolutely not. I believe it's 100% possible.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett45:26

       Just not met the person yet.

    4. MGMo Gawdat45:27

       Absolutely.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett45:28

       Okay.

    6. MGMo Gawdat45:28

       Okay? The economics of love and romance are quite shocking. Most people don't understand how that works. You know? If you have, if you have one requirement and the- if you have zero requirements in the person that you need in your life, uh, walk out of your door, the first person that you meet is that person, right? Because you have zero...

    7. SBSteven Bartlett45:47

       Mm-hmm.

    8. MGMo Gawdat45:47

       Ev- anything that this person is, is okay for you. If you have one requirement and, and say one of every 10 people in the world has that requirement, okay?

    9. SBSteven Bartlett45:59

       Brunette or-

    10. MGMo Gawdat45:59

        Yeah.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett46:00

        Yeah.

    12. MGMo Gawdat46:00

        Yeah, or, or something deeper. You know? L- let's start, you know, I am straight, so I need a woman, okay?

    13. SBSteven Bartlett46:06

        Yeah.

    14. MGMo Gawdat46:06

        That by definition removes 50% of the population.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett46:08

        Yeah.

    16. MGMo Gawdat46:09

        Okay? Uh, I, I, I'm, I- you know, I need a certain age bracket in my life. That by f- by, by itself removes maybe 70% of the remaining population, and so on. So every layer that you add to your requirements sadly follows the n-squared problem. Okay? So the n-squared problem is if you're looking for a person with one criteria, uh, and one in every 10 persons have that, if you add another layer of criteria, it's not one in 20, it's one in 100. If you add a third criteria, it's one in 1,000. If you add a third cri- uh, fourth criteria, it's one in 10,000, right? So it's c- it's constantly 10 to the power of, right? Now i- if, if you take anything that you want, I'm, I'm looking for someone, for example, supportive of my mission and free to travel, da-da-da-da-da-da, whatever that is. Hmm? I- if, if that person is, you know, is described by six criteria, you're now talking about one in 100,000. Do they exist? Absolutely. Absolutely, 100%. Do I have the time to spend looking for one in 100,000? I don't. O- I do, but it's not my priority. D- do you understand?

    17. SBSteven Bartlett47:24

        Yeah.

    18. MGMo Gawdat47:24

        And we do that with everything in life. You, you invest in your six-pack. I invest in my little belly, right? Why? Because for you, the i- uh, the ability to prioritize the six-pack at your age with your current, you know, uh, uh, uh, lifestyle and so on is actually taking a certain amount of investment from you that's justifiable by the ROI. Okay? For me, if I wanted to achieve your six-pack, I'd probably take double the time maybe, double the effort, right? And at the same time, I would require a lifetime that has a c- a lifestyle that has a consistency in it. Hmm? That I may not be able to, to achieve now. And you look at it and you go like, "Damn you, Steve, I want a six-pack." But then at the same time, I tell myself, "But damn you, Mo, you're traveling everywhere and you're really, re- really being true to yourself." That's fine. It's a reasonable compromise. Okay? So it's so, so the, the question, just to be very specific, everything exists, but the probabilities of them happening, if I'm the luckiest person on Earth, okay? W- I would walk out of here and she's the first person I meet, right? But if you count that and say, "No, reasonable probability will say you'd have to encounter 50,000 encounters for that person to show up." If you're unlucky, not unlucky and not lucky, right? Suddenly, it starts to become interesting. You, you tell yourself... And I know this sounds really weird for the romantics, by the way, I am a- I am completely a, a, a love-... you know, junkie. Hmm? But, but, but there is a reality to life that sometimes gets you to prioritize things differently.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett49:02

        It's really interesting, 'cause I've never had anybody describe it in like a mathematical way before.

    20. MGMo Gawdat49:08

        (laughs) You know, so there is mathematics underlying everything. I mean, think about that idea of one in a hundred thousand, right, the mathematics of that. It is, it's true. When you see the mathematics, doesn't mean that you have to, uh, act in a way that's not human, but it just allows you to understand how the system is working so that you can fit in. So the example I gave is you're, if you're into Shelby Cobras, right? If you wanna sell that one car among a million other cars on a, on a, on a site, hmm, that million other ... th- that car will have very little chance of being found on a general site.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett49:42

        Mm.

    22. MGMo Gawdat49:42

        But for the fans of a, of a Shelby Cobra, if you go to a show of Shelby Cobras, everyone there, 100% of the people there are interested in it. Okay? So the interesting bit is that you can actually increase your probability of being found quite a lot if you're true to yourself, if you start to advertise exactly who you, as, as who you are and mix with the people that you believe are the people that you want to be with, right?

    23. SBSteven Bartlett50:07

        Yeah.

    24. MGMo Gawdat50:07

        That's, m- it changes the probability drastically, actually.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett50:11

        That's so very, very true. That's very, very true. Kinda goes back to what I was saying when I did your podcast about my hairdresser who was dripping head to toe-

    26. MGMo Gawdat50:19

        Exactly, what you advertise, yeah.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett50:19

        ... in material possessions and jewelry. He's advertising himself to a certain audience that he doesn't actually want to attract, and if he is successful in that advertisement, he'd attract something that makes him unhappy and gives him shitty relationships. So-

    28. MGMo Gawdat50:32

        Mm-hmm. You, you get exactly what you advertise, and that's the interesting thing. You know, if, if, if a young lady wants to, to find a committed partner but goes to the pub every Friday evening or the, or the club every Friday evening to find that partner, you know, dressed in a certain way, acting in a certain way, she's gonna get the person because people are, you know, we don't see beyond what you're advertising. So if that's what you're advertising, the person who's interested in this will show up, right? If you're into tango dancing, hmm, and you sh- and you go to a tango class, the people there will be interested in tango-

    29. SBSteven Bartlett51:06

        Hm.

    30. MGMo Gawdat51:07

        ... and, and those people will be the ones that you want to create that relationship with. And yeah, of course, there are not a, a, a million people in the city that are interested in tango, but 100% of, of the people that are in that class are.
11. 59:01 – 1:18:25

    Money is an illusion

    1. SBSteven Bartlett59:01

       You asked me a question, um, about money, um, and then you said, you know, "What does money mean to me?" And then when I asked you, you said you think you've come to learn that you think money is one of your illusions. What did you mean by that?

    2. MGMo Gawdat59:13

       Money is an illusion at every, every level. Uh, money doesn't exis- ... You and I know that. Anyone who understands fractional reserve and how money is printed and generated, money does not even exist. You walk into a bank and you ask for a £50,000 loan for a car and they literally write the numbers 5, 0, 0, 0, 0 in a spreadsheet, and poof, money comes out of nowhere. That money never existed before you borrowed it, okay? And will only exist when you work your backside off to pay it back, right? And interestingly, that ill- that illusion, uh, was created to make our lives easier, and then it ended up create- making our life a lot more difficult. Now, why? Because most of us are so chasing the revenue side of money without a full understanding of the cost side of money. Let me try to explain. For you to get a job in London that pays you £100,000, just for simplification of the mathematics, you have to live in London, which costs you £70,000, for example. I don't know London very well, but let's say these are the numbers. But on top of the £70,000, it also costs- it costs you stre- uh, your stress. It also costs you being far away from your mom if your mom lives elsewhere. Uh, it costs you, you know, your time, which is your most valuable resource. The only thing you really have in your life is your time. And it costs you so many other things, right? And so most people, uh, uh, uh, don't understand the- the cost, uh, benefit relationship to start. Now, you- you take that and then you add a Louis Vuitton bag or a fancy car, and suddenly, your money is not even going as far as it could because you could get yourself a bag, uh, that is beautiful and everything for £100 but then you choose to- to buy one for several thousand pounds, and then you have to work harder...... which makes you may- pay more costs. And that, and the cycle becomes even more vicious, right? You continue further than that and you start to say, "So, I save some of that my- some of, some of my money in the future, but your savings are suffering inflation." So you save £1,000, they become 900, they become 800, when in reality, by the way, you've saved th- the, the £1,000 when you could have borrowed th- borrowed them by entering some numbers in a sp- in a spreadsheet. The entire recipe around that story is wrong. Everything around money is not what we believe in i- it is. Okay? Which basis- basically makes it an illusion. Now, the biggest part of that illusion, believe it or not, is, and I know you have money in the bank, is that you have nothing. I, I don't know if you realize that. I... Most, most people don't understand that if I have £100 in the bank, I literally have nothing. I have nothing. The bank has my 100 mi- uh, pounds, and the bank can decide whatever they want to do, if they wanted to take it away from me, okay? And it is only my money when I choose to buy an iPhone or something with it. For that one instant, hmm, that money is mine, and then once I get the iPhone, it's not mine anymore. I now have the i- the iPhone. Y- the... Right? Y- you basically assign that money that is never yours, it's the bank's, until the minute you spend it, to spending it on things that most of us don't ever, ever interact with. I mean, look at your own home, anyone listening to us, and how many things you have in that home that you've not ever used, ever. You know, you l- you saw that pair of shoes in the window and you went like, "Oh my God, I have to have them." Spent several hundred, uh, pounds on them or several tens of pounds on them, and then ended up taking them home, never ever putting them on. Right? Now, all of that waste along the way, the cost of earning the money, things that you spend it on, the actual value of the thing, uh, the sa- the things that you spend it on, basically tells you that there is one truth to money, which is, I have basic needs. I have basic needs, and my basic needs are to be reasonably covered, hmm, uh, reasonably fed, uh, reasonably safe, and so on and so forth. Hmm? And in, in, in Isl- in the Islamic culture, we call this rizq, which is different than income. Rizq is not what, how much money you earn, it's the good that that money brings you. It's, did you eat a meal today? That is actually what you're looking for in life. It's not the money that gets you the meal. Okay? What you're looking for is the meal. Hmm? Could you actually buy something for your daughter today? The thing is what you're looking for. It's not, it's not the money that got the thing. And if you start to chase that, something very different happens. Right? Sum- suddenly, you start to ask yourself, "Hmm, is buying that thing worth the 17 hours of work I'm gonna put in?" Right? Is it... W- which of those... Which would I prefer? If I gave you the two choices and said, "Buy this bag or spend 17 hours with your friends," if you see it that way, you may d- make very different decisions. It leaves us with a very big other illusion, which is, but money is safety, Mo. You know, it's not like I want money because I want more fancy things. I just want to feel safe because the world is unpredictable. Sadly, when the world is unpredictable, money's not gonna save you. Okay? And I think my story's been very, very, very big eye-opener. I had enough money, uh, I, you know, I had enough connections and enough influence and I, you know, failed to protect my child's life when it was time for him to go. Right? I, you know, I, I think we know many stories of someone that maybe falls and breaks your back. What, what will m- your money do for you? Safety is a much bigger thing, hmm, than just a little bit of money in the bank. And by the way, safety is an attitude, is an idea to tell yourself, "When I need it, I will make it. When I need it, I will have it." Hmm? Perhaps the answer is, "I don't need so much of it anyway." And I think, you know, again, like everything in, in life, you, you want to, to have the skill of making money. Money is, is power. You know, again, when you were speaking on Slo-Mo, you basically said, "I love the idea of being able to build this setup for the podcast, of spending on my show and so on." That's wonderful. Okay? Money is power. Hmm? But it's power as long as you own it and it doesn't own you. The minute money owns you and lack of it starts to distract you, and looking at how much your, your other friend has and he has a little more than you, you know, uh, it hurts your ego. Once it get- gets into that realm, then money works against you, it doesn't work for you.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:59

       Do you think it's a noble cause that when I answered that question and I said, um, "For me, money is basically the fuel of my mission. It enables me to..." I said I put on my, My Diary of a CEO live tour cost me about £600,000 to book these 10 venues, to book the London Palladium for three nights, to book this massive choir of fif- you know, 40 people, to book this big music h- There was about 100 of us, 100 people I had to book and pay for to put on that show. At the end of the show, I break even. But without the, that tour s- you know, reaches almost 20,000 people, it's the most thrilling, fulfilling, and, uh, biggest honor that I've ever had to be able to do that in front of all of those people and to share that message, which is very much in line with my mission. And I look at money and said, "If I, if I didn't have the money, it would've been much, much harder." Not impossible, but much, much, much harder to do that.

    4. MGMo Gawdat1:06:48

       Absolutely.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:49

       So is... Do you feel like that is a noble relationship with m- with money?

    6. MGMo Gawdat1:06:54

       Uh, look, look, uh, uh, uh, we, we, we agree on this. Hmm? Nothing is good or bad, nothing is right or wrong. Everything is both, both right and wrong and everything is, can be both good and bad. It depends on what you want to, to do with it. And one of the messages I constantly tell everyone in the world is, absolutely become successful, become powerful, become rich, because the biggest problem with our world is that the most successful, most powerful then, and the richest are the worst of us.... okay? And I don't generalize and say that's the truth, but it's actually easier to make money if you break some rules, than if it- i- i- than it is if you're ethical. And so as a result of that, hmm, a- a- a- a good chunk of the big money in the world is not super ethical, right? And if- if I have more money, I can fuel my One Billion Happy mission, and that's a good thing for the world. That's, by the way, owning money, not letting it own you, right? So what- what- i- if I- if I can get to the point where I make it and actually give it to One Billion Happy, then that's amazing. If I get to the point where I make it and then suddenly go like, "Oh, let's wait a little bit, grow it a tiny bit, and then give it to so- to- to One Billion Happy," then I'm not doing the right thing. Having said that, and of course you know how I admire you and- and respect you, hmm, this is your zoom lens of the world, okay? For someone else, four pounds, some sticky paper and a couple of scissors, and spending an hour with her daughter doing something beautiful, okay, is as impactful, maybe even more impactful than the entire show. Because that one daughter, with the sticky paper and scissors, might end up becoming one of the most pronounced artists in the world, prominent enough to change the world. With four- four pounds, scissors, and a piece of paper, right? Now, we- we somehow, especially those of us like you and I who t- who had experiences in life where they put effort and the effort rewarded them, okay, we think that we are the ones that are changing the world or making a difference or... No, we're not, okay? The reality is, we need- we need to understand that, again, I, you know, I admire you and I know you'll- you'll- you'll not feel upset, but half of what you know is wrong. Half of what I know is wrong.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:14

       More than that. (laughs)

    8. MGMo Gawdat1:09:15

       Absolutely, right? And it's- it's just an attempt. It's just an attempt. What- you know, w- w- w- whether that attempt, uh, uh, uh, Steve, is- is- is a- an attempt because of money or is it a- it's an attempt because you just spend time with your driver talking about something, or, you know, you- you- you- you- you were telling the story. All- all of those things, huh? I think the game is, I'm going to do the best that I can to acquire the resources that I'm good at acquiring, to direct them in the investments that I have accessible to me, okay? If- if you are a cashier, uh, you know, at a supermarket and you're making enough money to, uh, spend wonderful time with your daughter to bi- you know, to- to do a bit of art, then that in itself is a form of contribution that changes the world. And you'll never know, that one daughter might cure cancer.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:15

       Hmm. That's interesting. I was- I was bouncing around in my head back and forward about like, about the role that a lot of my, I don't know, maybe my traumas and insecurities are playing in driving my decision-making...

    10. MGMo Gawdat1:10:30

        Of course.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:30

        ... around these things. Obviously, putting on a big show, you have lots of people there that are clapping for you, there's lots of admiration. It's very like, it's very massaging of the ego. So one might say to themselves, "Well, I'm serving the world," when in fact it's more of a selfish thing, and you're like... You know what I mean? It's that- that constant battle I find in my life where the- the greatest service that I do to others is also woven in there with loads of like...

    12. MGMo Gawdat1:10:51

        Absolutely.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:51

        ... insecurity. So even this podcast, like, I'm sure the people listening enjoy listening. I'm sure they get a tremendous amount of value from it, but there is still this guy in me that is so desperate to be number one and to win, right? And it's almost, I'm almost at peace with the conflicting forces, (laughs) because I know, I think as we sit here, the podcast is number one in the Apple store. Pretty sure of that. And I know it wouldn't have been and it wouldn't have reached as many people if I wasn't someone who was desperate to be the best. But I also know that there's this, that pursuit of being the best is also quite an ugly one, 'cause it comes, I mean, it's you s- end up sacrificing a bunch of things in the pursuit of being the best that might make you more fulfilled. Uh, so it's this weird, it's this weird balancing act of contradiction and confusion and not really knowing why- why I'm doing what I'm doing, at like the real fundamental level. You can broadcast what people want you to hear, "Oh, I'm doing it 'cause I wanna help others," but I actually know that there's, it's a recipe, a concoction of many conflicting forces, and pretty much all my success has been, uh, this- this sort of recipe of conflicting forces.

    14. MGMo Gawdat1:11:58

        Well, I mean, w- what I- I, what I admire most about you is you're able to see and say this, okay?

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:05

        Mm-hmm.

    16. MGMo Gawdat1:12:05

        If you're, you know, if you've achieved total enlightenment, you'll be gone, okay? None of us is ever there. The- the challenge is this, some people are completely egocentric and not even aware.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:19

        Yeah.

    18. MGMo Gawdat1:12:19

        Okay? Some people are struggling, okay, and some people are, um, you know, doing the best they can, understanding as I say that in compartment two there is something, and they're okay with it, okay? And the- the- the- the- the trick is you're always trying to move a little bit higher, and that higher, you know, and that little voice in your head, I- I follow that model, and it's very, it sounds simple but it's actually quite interesting. I call it be, learn, do, right? Be, learn, do is most of us in our life, we look at problems and we say, "Here's the solution." Right? That's, we're mostly almost anchored in doing. Doing, again, is a very masculine trait, okay? It's interestingly, a lot of doing is as harmful as it's- as- as it is beneficial. Hmm? Uh, uh, you know, the- the good doing is a doing that is informed by a form of being and by a certain level of skill that comes from learning, okay? So when I, what- what- what I normally try to follow in the entire manual to your brain is to say, okay, for everything that we will find, we will have to be, then learn, then do.Okay. So (clears throat) you're, you're very good, and, and one of the people I respect most about that idea of being. You look at yourself and you say, "Ooh, I am doing that because of that ex- insecurity that happened when I was this." That's an amazing achievement in itself. That's a third of the way, right? I know what's, what I need to work on, and I think it's the challenging third of the way, believe it or not, because we humans are very good at solving the problems when they're defined. If you make it y- your priority, you're gonna learn the skill. Everyone is capable of doing that. Again, I speak a lot about neuroplasticity and how learning works, but once, once you've lear- once you've realized what it is, is that you need to work on, hmm, you're gonna learn the skill and then you're gonna start practicing and doing it the right way. The challenge is when you don't know what you're working on. Now, I'll say this openly, hmm, what you're doing to the world with your awareness, that part of it is ego-driven ... Now, uh, of course part of what I do is ego-driven. I tell the whole world that I am an engineer. Bei- e- being an engineer is an ego, right? Why do I tell the whole world that? There is a utility to that ego. The utility is, by the way guys, if you're gonna read my work or listen to my, my analysis, it's gonna appear a little over-engineered, even when I talk about something as beautiful as love and relationships, right? It will have that engineering element to it, which is not entirely myself, by the way, it's just the way I present myself to the world because others don't present themselves that way, so I'm differentiating. Yeah, it's ... Uh, I wish I didn't have to use that ego. You may wish that you stood on stage and didn't feel the rush of people clapping and saying, "Well done, you're amazing," but by the way, if you're delivering to h- thousands and hundreds of thousands of people on your podcast, great. You're so much better than those who are not. And now, the fact that you have your awareness makes you even better than those who are but are not aware of their, uh, you know, the parts that they need to work on.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:27

        Yeah, it's challenging. I think, uh, I, I sort of thinking I was bouncing around in my head on that because if I cared a ton about the, the clapping part, I probably would be trying to convince everybody that I'm perfect a bit more than I do. It's just, uh, a, an interesting battle of ego, but I, but I also think that, I think I said this on your podcast is, it's okay to be a contradiction-

    20. MGMo Gawdat1:15:49

        Absolutely.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:49

        ... and I think in all facets of my life, I, when I look at my decisions, what I want, what I say, what I do, and there's so many interwoven contradictions. And it's s- so remarkable that the contradictions often lead me to success in, in the things that I'm aiming for. It's not making sense.

    22. MGMo Gawdat1:16:06

        I think the whole idea is that we're all contradictions. The only difference is you're aware.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:10

        Yeah.

    24. MGMo Gawdat1:16:11

        Do, do you realize that, huh? So, so the thing ... I, I, I think you should be the example for everyone to recognize that we're all contradictions, okay?

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:19

        Hmm.

    26. MGMo Gawdat1:16:19

        It's ev- everyone, every single one listening to us. Life is a contradiction. This is why one of my favorite feminine qualities is the ability to embrace paradoxes, right?

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:28

        Mm-hmm.

    28. MGMo Gawdat1:16:29

        And, and the reality is the only way you can almost, like at a quantum level, solve life better is if you're able to embrace two extremes and say, "Both are true, and I'm gonna include both of them in my lifestyle, both of them in my decision-making because both of them are me." Hmm?

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:46

        Goes back to your point about the equilibrium as well that the, the reason why the pendulum sits in the middle is because i- it's that balance with the two opposing forces.

    30. MGMo Gawdat1:16:53

        Mm-hmm.
12. 1:18:25 – 1:31:02

    Not all thoughts are equal

    1. MGMo Gawdat1:18:25

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:25

       In your book as well, That Little Voice In Your Head, you, you describe how, like, all thoughts aren't really made equally and that there's different sort of categories of thoughts.

    3. MGMo Gawdat1:18:32

       Yes.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:32

       And some of them, like observation, are closer to the truth than others. What are the, the different categories of thoughts that we have in our head?

    5. MGMo Gawdat1:18:41

       The first challenge with thought is that we create our thoughts from the wrong ing- ingredients. Uh, so if, if I, if I gave you bad, uh, uh, vegetables and told you to make the best salad recipe on the planet, it's still gonna taste bad. And, and the, the reality is we have only one proper ingredient to, uh, that we should allow into our brain so that we create proper, uh, accurate thoughts, and that, that one ingredient is actual observation. Okay? Observation is I look at this glass and I say, "This glass is, uh, 37% full." Okay? That is an observation. Yeah, you can, we can debate in physics if it is or if it isn't and so on, w- but in, in, you know, the typical way we look at life, this is 37% full, right?My brain would then tell me, hmm, if, if I used that information, I c- I may ask for someone in the team and say, "Guys, can, can I please another, have another, a little bit more water?" My brain would the- the- then tell me, "No, no, hold on. It's tapered." Okay? Uh, uh, it is not, you know, the same from the top and, uh, as, as it is in the, uh, from the bottom. No, you, you've, you've calculated wrong. No, you're getting old and your mathematics are not accurate anymore. You're, you know, you can go into so many different, uh, uh, um, inputs into your thoughts that would debate that fact that it is more empty than it is full. Okay? Uh, you take that and you find, you can find them in categories, huh? One of them is conditioning. Believe it or not, one of the most frequently used sources for creating your thoughts is not what's happening in the world at all. It's your conditioning, and your conditioning creates thoughts within you that are not, not at all a reality. I, I, I, I speak about an experience where I was dating a, a, a Buddhist girl who was very calm and wonderful in every possible way, and, you know, two of our best friends were a couple, and they had a big fight before coming to our, uh, uh, place. And so, anyway, the, the girl basically said, "Mo, I need to talk to you about something, and, you know, want to ask your view." And she sat next to me, very, very, very good friends, all the four of us for a very long time, and so she s- she hugged me. She sat on, you know, put her head on my shoulder and cried. Okay? My girlfriend came in and said, excuse my English, she said, "Take your hands off my man, you B." Okay? And, you know, I was like, "Whoa." Uh, she's one of the calmest people I know. What happened here? Hmm? And what happened was she had been cheated on before, right? By the best fr- by her best girlfriend and a b- a, a, a, you know, um, a friend of the person she was dating at the time. And the input into her head that said this girl was sort of doing something inappropriate with me was coming from the fact that she had that conditioning in her. It wasn't the event itself. The event was highly exaggerated by the conditioning. So we're unable to find that when we, when we look at our, uh, at the makeup of our thoughts. The second, uh, I, uh, and the third are recycled emotions and recycled thoughts. Okay? So we recycle so much of what our parents told us. Hmm? Recycling of a memory or the recycling of a thought, you know? Your, your friend, uh, tells you, "Hey, by the way, all men are cheats," and you recycle that thought. Okay? All men are cheats. All men are cheats. And then, you know, you, you end up making decisions based on that. The fourth and I think the most, the biggest challenge we have in the modern world is the mainstream, uh, media, basically. The, the, the, the large advertising media, uh, story that we're told that is a ton of input, whether it's movies, it's social media, it's, you know, tweets or, or, uh, reels or, or, or if, uh, or if it's B- the BBC or Channel 4 playing the news, and the, the, the reality of what we're getting is we're getting a highly biased section of life. Why? Because of the human nature which is around negativity bias. Humans are only paying attention most of the time to the negative side of life. Those, al- all of those outlets are constantly using that negativity bias to broadcast to you what's actually not the full truth, but the negative side of the truth. So, you know, n- the, uh, the ch- uh, a channel will not talk about a child that went out with his mother and played on the swings. They'll talk about the child that fell in a well and we have that disaster. And, and, you know, a, a, a social media person I, I always say are a balanced one, but a social media influencer will always show this, the, the, the pictures that appear to be more than what they're living and there will be filters and so on. And that negativity that you feel as a result is not a reflection of the actual truth of life. It's a reflection of the subset of knowledge that you get from life. Now, wha- what does that mean? I mean, I'm trying to say, if I give you your phone and your phone has a perfect phone f- uh, app on it, if you type the wrong number, you're gonna call the wrong person. Nothing wrong with the phone. Nothing wrong with the app. Okay? In your brain, if you put in the wrong data all the time, if you allow all of that negativity coming from the media and the news, if you allow the conditioning to be part of your, uh, of your decision-making criteria, the recycled thoughts and emotions, then you're eventually gonna end up calling the wrong action. Okay? And, and I, and I think the reality is that at that very fundamental level, unless you start to really iron out all of the wrong inputs, there is very little possibility that you're actually going to get to the accurate output.

Episode duration: 2:12:21