The "Happy Life" Scientist: How To FINALLY Beat Stress, Worry & Uncertainty! Dacher Keltner | E219

1. 0:00 – 2:47

   Intro

   1. SBSteven Bartlett0:00

      Life expectancy's been declining-

   2. DKDacher Keltner0:01

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett0:02

      ... for the last few years. How do we reverse that trend?

   4. DKDacher Keltner0:05

      These are the five safest things to do. (screaming) Dr. Dacher Keltner.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett0:09

      A renowned expert in the science of human emotion.

   6. DKDacher Keltner0:12

      Discovering ways on how we can improve our happiness.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett0:14

      He's also the author of several books, including The Power Paradox. I read just someone touching you can make you live longer and be less stressed. Is that true?

   8. DKDacher Keltner0:23

      Yeah. There are all kinds of findings that speak to this. You have premature babies, they used to just put 'em in these little units that warmed them, and they would die. And then they figured out they needed skin-to-skin contact like they need food, and they lived. They gained 47% weight gain. You know, the deepest craving we have is to be appreciated by other people. If you wanna be happy, practice compassion. And if you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If I am kind to you, my act of kindness makes you more kind downstream. And then, that person you've helped actually is kinder to another person, and the-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett0:57

      And they've proven that?

   10. DKDacher Keltner0:58

       Yeah.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett0:58

       Okay. So, like, karma is a very real thing.

   12. DKDacher Keltner1:00

       It's very real. That'll save eight, 10 years of life. You've gotta find a few moments just to be kind.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett1:06

       Are we worse people-

   14. DKDacher Keltner1:08

       (laughs)

   15. SBSteven Bartlett1:09

       ... the richer and more powerful we become?

   16. DKDacher Keltner1:10

       Yeah. So we've actually done experiments, right? You know, it's a movie about a child who has cancer, and poorer people show activation of the vagus nerve, which is part of compassion. Well-to-do people, less activation. The wealthier you are, the more you've advocated for serious economic policies that hurt the poor.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett1:26

       Jesus.

   18. DKDacher Keltner1:27

       And this is where it gets really worrisome.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett1:31

       I just wanna start this episode with a message of thanks. A thank you to everybody that tunes in to listen to this podcast. By doing so, you've enabled me to live out my dream, but also for many members of our team to live out their dreams too. It's one of the greatest privileges I could never have dreamed of or imagined in my life, to get to do this, to get to learn from these people, to get to have these conversations, to get to interrogate them from a very selfish perspective, trying to solve problems I have in my life. So, I feel like I owe you a huge thank you for being here and for listening to these episodes and for making this platform what it is. Can I ask you a favor? I can't tell you how much, um, you can change the course of this podcast, the, the, the course of the guests we're able to invite to the show, and to the course of everything that we do here just by doing one simple thing. And that simple thing is hitting that subscribe button. Helps this channel more than I could ever explain. The guests on this platform are incredible because so many of you have hit that button. And I know when we think about what we wanna do together over the next year on this show, a lot of it is gonna be fueled by the amount of you that are subscribed and that tune into this show every week. So, thank you. Let's keep doing this. And I can't wait to see what this year brings for this show, for us as a community, and for this platform. (instrumental music) Dacher,

2. 2:47 – 5:10

   Your professional background

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:48

      could you start by giving me your professional academic resume?

   2. DKDacher Keltner2:55

      Uh, wow. Well, that, it begins early with my parents, who were, you know, very important in my education and my formation. So, my dad was a visual artist, and my mom taught literature and poetry and romanticism and got me interested in, you know, all k- all kinds of things about the human mind. Um, and then I was at UC Santa Barbara as an undergraduate, uh, and then went to Stanford for a PhD. Subsequent to that, worked with Paul Ekman as a postdoc, who's kind of a pioneer in the study of facial expression, uh, and inspiration for the show Lie To Me. Uh, and then became a professor, uh, Wisconsin, uh, and then UC Berkeley for 27 years. And helped run the Greater Good Science Center, which is about disseminating kind of the new knowledge of meditation and compassion and stress to, uh, a broad audience. And, um, have taught at Berkeley, which I love, for 27 years.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett3:53

      You reference there the Greater Good Science Center.

   4. DKDacher Keltner3:55

      Yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett3:56

      What's the, what's the mission of the Greater Good Science Center?

   6. DKDacher Keltner3:58

      Yeah, thanks for asking. You know, um, 20 years ago, uh, post 9/11, um, you know, we were in a world much like post-Trump and, uh, Boris Johnson and others. You know, like, are we, are we fragmented? What happened to humanity? Um, what happened to community? Um, why are, um, life expectancies in the United States dropping the last two years? What's going on, right?

   7. SBSteven Bartlett4:23

      I saw that, I-

   8. DKDacher Keltner4:23

      Yeah, striking, right? Really disturbing. Um, and we had the conviction, and there was this new science of things like if you have strong social ties, it adds 10 years of life expectancy to your life, right? If you practice kindness, um, it quiets down the threat regions of the brain. And so we at Berkeley, in partnership with the journalism school, kinda had the sense early, like, "If we can get this knowledge out, right, in actionable prose, where you read it and you say, 'Oh, I could teach breathing to my, my medical team,' or, 'I could teach an awe walk to my neighborhood friends,' uh, that would be good for the world," you know? Uh-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett5:07

      I'm just, I'm super compelled by that.

   10. DKDacher Keltner5:08

       Thank you.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett5:09

       The Greater Good Science Center.

3. 5:10 – 6:59

   Findings about keeping younger

   1. SBSteven Bartlett5:10

      Can you, let's talk about some of the things that you've, you've given away in terms of-

   2. DKDacher Keltner5:13

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett5:13

      ... knowledge-

   4. DKDacher Keltner5:14

      Yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett5:14

      ... and, and some of the sort of discoveries that I think would surprise most people. You mentioned some of them in passing there-

   6. DKDacher Keltner5:19

      Yeah.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett5:19

      ... about breathing and awe walks-

   8. DKDacher Keltner5:22

      Yeah.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett5:22

      ... and, um, how you can add 10 years to your life.

   10. DKDacher Keltner5:25

       Yeah.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett5:25

       What are, give me some of the top line, um, more detail on some of those top line findings.

   12. DKDacher Keltner5:31

       This really comes into focus for me, Steven, when I speak to medical audiences. I do a lot of work with healthcare providers, um, you know, teaching medical doctors, residents, uh, helping programmatically with kinda the spirit of hospitals and the like. Um, I talk about, uh, awe, that the feeling of awe, um, reduces activation in the inflammation system in your immune system. Your immune system is all these cells distributed throughout your body that helps you protect against dangerous elements on the outside, viruses and bacteria. And the feeling of awe-... sort of reduces the activation of the cytokine system, which heats up your body. And if your body is always hot, that is bad news for your heart, it's bad news for your diabetes. And awe helps moderate that. Um, I, um, you know, I teach the work on compassion that, you know, 65 year olds who practice altruism and compassion, uh, have greater life expectancy. Um, you know, and, and you can go on. Each of these what used to be thought of as kind of new age, soft things, like awe or compassion or breathing, um, benefit us. You know, just simple breathing, if you breathe in and out counting to four, as you breathe in counting out to four, actually increases neural density in the, this part of your brain, the prefrontal cortex, which helps you

4. 6:59 – 22:10

   The feeling of awe

   1. DKDacher Keltner6:59

      handle stress.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett7:00

      What is awe for someone-

   3. DKDacher Keltner7:01

      Awe, yeah, awe is just feeling an emotion you have when you encounter something big or vast that's outside of your frame of reference, right, of reality that you don't understand. That I- I think, I like the word mystery. Uh, you know, "Wow, whoo, I can't figure this out." And, and then that emotion of awe stimulates wonder, right? Like, how do I- why do pe- why do rainbows exist? What, you know, how are they produced when water, when light bends through water molecules? So it's, it's an emotion that drives wonder and creativity.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett7:37

      What is the, um, positive net impact on humans of experiencing awe? Other than, 'cause when I think of awe, I think of going to, like, Machu Picchu and seeing those big mountains-

   5. DKDacher Keltner7:45

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett7:45

      ... and going, "What the hell is this? This is insane." And I think of that as being like a memory. "Oh, that was fun."

   7. DKDacher Keltner7:52

      Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett7:52

      "That was amazing." I take the picture.

   9. DKDacher Keltner7:53

      Yeah.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett7:54

       Put it on my Instagram, get the likes, go home.

   11. DKDacher Keltner7:57

       Yeah. Yeah.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett7:57

       But there's something deeper going on, right?

   13. DKDacher Keltner7:59

       Way deeper.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett7:59

       In my physiology.

   15. DKDacher Keltner8:00

       Yeah. Thank you. You know, one of the fascinating things, Stephen, when you're, you know, is when you study this complicated realm of emotion is we have these words that we all use to talk about an emotion, and they're... Much as we have words about, you know, ethnic categories or class categories, "Oh, he's lower class," or, "He's, he's African American," those are just words and concepts that may not capture reality at all. And awe suffers from this, which is when people talk about awe or they share it on Instagram, they show, they share the big moments of like, "I was at the Grand Canyon," or, "I was in the Lake District," or, "By this cathedral." Um, but in point of fact, you know, there are a lot of ways in which we feel awe all the time, right? Uh, encountering somebody who's really kind in the streets and you're like, "Wow, that was really generous."

   16. SBSteven Bartlett8:54

       So yesterday on the train, the team were coming up to Manchester where I was speaking, and an, uh, an elderly lady overheard them saying that they were gonna climb a mountain for charity. The elderly lady got up, walked over, gave him five pounds and said, "I climbed that once. Here's five pounds. Put it towards the, the charity."

   17. DKDacher Keltner9:09

       Mm-hmm.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett9:10

       And for all of us, it went into our, like, company chat that that had happened.

   19. DKDacher Keltner9:13

       Yeah.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett9:13

       It was a real moment of, like, an affirmation of what it is to be a human and, uh, and-

   21. DKDacher Keltner9:17

       Yeah.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett9:17

       ... kindness, I guess.

   23. DKDacher Keltner9:18

       Yeah. And what's stunning to me, and this is a, a digression, is your story just gave me the chills.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett9:23

       Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

   25. DKDacher Keltner9:23

       And, and that's amazing that-

   26. SBSteven Bartlett9:24

       It's incredible, isn't it?

   27. DKDacher Keltner9:25

       It is incredible that I wasn't there.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett9:27

       I've just got the chills myself just-

   29. DKDacher Keltner9:29

       (laughs)

   30. SBSteven Bartlett9:29

       ... just, um, just you saying you had the chills has just given me the chills.
5. 22:10 – 29:35

   Why did you write this book?

   1. DKDacher Keltner22:11

   2. SBSteven Bartlett22:11

      Why did you write this book? Of all the things you could have written about, you're a very smart-

   3. DKDacher Keltner22:15

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett22:15

      ... individual, you've studied so many things relating to sort of social sciences and how humans behave and why we, why we do what we do, but to commit your life to writing a book about this subject matter-

   5. DKDacher Keltner22:25

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett22:26

      ... is, an- writing books is not easy.

   7. DKDacher Keltner22:28

      Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett22:28

      Takes a long time, a lot of effort-

   9. DKDacher Keltner22:29

      Yeah.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett22:29

       ... and then to promote them, et cetera. Why this book and w- why now?

   11. DKDacher Keltner22:33

       Yeah. Thank you for asking that. Um, yeah, you know, um, it is hard to write books, and we had done a lot of research on awe, and, you know, one of the reasons I wrote the book was, um, you know, I'm now at an age where I've been following how we're doing as cultures, and, and a lot of the things that have surfaced here, Stephen, are true. Like, you know, people feel, uh, lonely. They feel, um, adrift. They're ser- seaching, they're searching for something more meaningful than elevating a paycheck, and, and I felt that awe was part of that story, that awe gets us to what is meaningful to us as individuals at a moment in history. Um, and then, uh, my younger brother died and he, um, he was, he was born, uh, I'm one year older. We had this wild childhood, you know, of like born in Mexico and raised in the late '60s in Laurel Canyon, a very experimental place, wandering the foothills of the Sierras, and, and, uh, he was my source of meaning in many ways in life, um, and he got colon cancer and died. And it was brutal and horrifying, and at the moment of his dying, uh, the last night, he, uh, I was sitting by his bed and, um, and he, he was my moral compass in life, you know, he really, he was very courageous, super kind, uh, really only cared about like, devoted his career to the least, uh, resourced kids in the country, these poor, poor kids. And, um, when I was watching him die, uh, I had an awe experience. I was like-... you know, what is going on. He seems really calm. He's heading into a space I don't understand. I saw like pulsating light, you know, that was uniting everyone around him in this sense of reverence and the sacredness of, of his life. And, uh, afterward, um, I was, uh, knocked into a really profound state of grief where, um, this about five years ago, uh, I couldn't make sense of the world. You know, I could do my work, um, but I just didn't, I was lost 'cause he was a very important voice to me. You know, and I was waking up, wasn't sleeping, panicky, and, and I, like a lot of people in grief, I was like, you know, hallucinating. Like I would see him, follow a guy in the streets, like, and it wasn't him. I'd wake up thinking he was there. I felt his hand on my back a couple times. And, uh, it was weird. I was, I, I had this epiphany in this really bad state of mind, the worst I've ever felt, like, um, I gotta find awe again, you know? I have to... My brother, you know, he and I went dancing and did wild things and backpacking and, you know, just lived this life of awe. He was my source and he was gone. Um, and so I wrote the book, you know, and I, I dug in and just started writing about him. Uh, and he features prominently in the book, you know, what he meant to me and how I grieved his loss and then worked up the science too. So in many ways, you know, what we're observing in our, our globalized culture is, is this, the problems of capitalism, the search for meaning, the, you know, rising, the reduced life expectancy in the US, rising anxiety, depression, and I was kind of in that state. You know, suddenly like, "Wow, my career's good, but uh," you know? And so, um, knowing a little bit about the science, I was like, "I've gotta do this myself and go get it."

   12. SBSteven Bartlett26:36

       Did you find that awe again?

   13. DKDacher Keltner26:37

       I did. It, it, it, it, it took a lot of work, you know? I was in a really tough place and, uh, you know, I, um, I just was, I just started anew. Like where do I find meaning? And I find meaning working with prisoners. I don't know why, you know? Um, but just, you know, being in prisons, volunteering, helping with the formerly incarcerated. I challenged myself to find awe in places I wouldn't ordinarily find it. Like just to open my mind, like, "Whoa, I'm at a symphony." You know, I love African music and ʻSona Jobarté and, you know, and here I was in this symphony, not understanding it, but starting to feel it. Um, you know, nature's easy for me. I've always backpacked and gone into the mountains. I had a lot of spiritual conversations, you know, of like, I'm not a religious person and I was like, "What is this?" You know, "Why, why mystical awe?" So, and what it gave me, I think, with respect to my brother's death, is an openness, like we don't know what life is. We don't know where it goes. We don't, you know? Uh, and it opened my mind to a lot of new sources of awe.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett27:50

       There's almost an injustice I heard in that story because of the way you characterized your, your brother and his behavior.

   15. DKDacher Keltner27:56

       Yeah.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett27:57

       For him then to have passed early from cancer-

   17. DKDacher Keltner28:00

       Yeah.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett28:01

       ... feels in many respects to me like the opposite of awe or, you know, the universe being, uh, compassionate or fair or whatever. And that, did that-

   19. DKDacher Keltner28:11

       Yeah. Yeah. It hit me hard, you know? It was, uh, and that's well put. Like for the first year, you know, you, you ask these questions like, "Why would a guy who teaches speech therapy to the poorest kids in the United States go and is with a teenage daughter and a young family? Come on." You know, "Come on." And Donald Trump is (laughs) you know, indestructible and you're like, "The world is fucked." You know, and, and I grappled with that, uh, very hard. And then I was, as you well put, I was in this antithesis state of awe. I was like nothing meant anything, you know, it was all pointless. I could sense nothing bigger about life that mattered, and that's why, you know, that's why I said, "All right. I have this career that allows me to do these investigations," and we're all investigating. We're all search- see, sear- searching for these things in music or moral beauty or being in collectives or sports, and I just threw myself into it. And, and, uh, and you know, frankly, um, it, you know, the idea of everyday awe, which is very important in the book, we can find it anywhere. You know, on the train with the act of generosity. That is now, it just feels alive all the time.

6. 29:35 – 38:51

   The link between gratitude

   1. SBSteven Bartlett29:35

      What- what's kind of the through line to gratitude? Because when you were talking about-

   2. DKDacher Keltner29:38

      Yeah. Great question.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett29:39

      ... the hall walk and you picked up the gl- the, this, um, mug, this silver mug we have in front of us-

   4. DKDacher Keltner29:44

      Yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett29:44

      ... and you started admiring it, it almost sounded a bit more like gratitude to me.

   6. DKDacher Keltner29:47

      Yeah.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett29:47

      And even the, the study where you had the elderly, um, participants do the walk and then sort of self-report, I'm guessing, on how they felt.

   8. DKDacher Keltner29:54

      Yeah.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett29:55

      It sounded like nature also gives us a sense of sort of gratitude for our lives, for the world we live in.

   10. DKDacher Keltner29:59

       Yeah. Yeah.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett30:00

       What's the distinction or difference if there is one?

   12. DKDacher Keltner30:02

       Yeah. What a terrific question, and there's a deep philosophical tradition, um, of David, David Hume, Scottish philosopher, um, Charles Darwin, uh, Martha Nussbaum more recently, a Chicago philosopher, that we, and it really animates a lot of this conversation, the work I've done is like we have these amazing emotions that are like deep intuitions about the world that are good for us and good for the world. You know, compassion, take care of people who are vulnerable, awe-... you know, connect to others to face vast mysteries. And gratitude, uh, Adam Smith, the great economist, felt like this is the emotion that holds societies together, gratitude. The feeling of reverence for things are like, "Wow, this is really important and sacred," of things that are given to you. And that is key. Like, "Oh, my friend helped me with my work. Um, my work colleague brought me lunch. Um, you know, my, my child did the dishes tonight. You know, whoa, um, I feel grateful." Gratitude, really close to awe as, as you intuit, but it tends to be different in that awe tends to be about vaster things, like, you know, uh, you almost get into a car crash or you get into a car crash, you almost die and you're like, "Ah, I'm just... I feel awe-struck that I'm alive," you know. And then awe has more mystery to it. You can't understand it.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett31:29

       Like music or-

   14. DKDacher Keltner31:30

       Right. Like mus-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett31:31

       ... art.

   16. DKDacher Keltner31:31

       Yeah, exactly. You know, music rushes into you and you start crying.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett31:36

       Mm-hmm.

   18. DKDacher Keltner31:36

       Right? And you're like, "Oh, my God." So what's a recent experience of that for you?

   19. SBSteven Bartlett31:41

       Of music?

   20. DKDacher Keltner31:42

       Yeah.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett31:43

       Um, it would be-

   22. DKDacher Keltner31:44

       Where you just start sobbing and, you know... or not sobbing.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett31:46

       Oh, sobbing. Ugh. Um-

   24. DKDacher Keltner31:48

       Or chills.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett31:50

       It would be... We do this live show f- uh, it's called The Diary of a CEO Live. And we toured the country last year. We did three nights at the Palladium, then we took it to all these theaters. And I'm stood-

   26. DKDacher Keltner31:58

       (laughs)

   27. SBSteven Bartlett31:58

       ... and there's a house gospel choir of about 40 people behind me for the whole two hours-

   28. DKDacher Keltner32:03

       Yeah.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett32:03

       ... while I'm speaking. And I mean, Jesus.

   30. DKDacher Keltner32:05

       Yeah.
7. 38:51 – 48:02

   Monogamy

   1. DKDacher Keltner38:51

   2. SBSteven Bartlett38:51

      Makes me think a lot about relationships.

   3. DKDacher Keltner38:52

      Hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett38:53

      And I know that's just something you've written about, um-

   5. DKDacher Keltner38:54

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett38:55

      ... extensively, the, the role that a romantic relationship-

   7. DKDacher Keltner38:58

      Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett38:58

      ... plays in health outcomes, et cetera, et cetera. But then I also was, um, I was pondering this idea of monogamy broadly.

   9. DKDacher Keltner39:04

      Yeah.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett39:05

       Whether ... So-

   11. DKDacher Keltner39:06

       Uh-oh. (laughs)

   12. SBSteven Bartlett39:06

       ... my kinda question is kinda twofold.

   13. DKDacher Keltner39:07

       Yeah.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett39:08

       Is, are we meant to be monogamous?

   15. DKDacher Keltner39:10

       Yeah.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett39:10

       Um, and also, this, I- I'm thinking a lot about how the relationship dynamics in monogamy-

   17. DKDacher Keltner39:18

       Yeah.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett39:18

       ... is changing and some, in some ways, uh, eroding.

   19. DKDacher Keltner39:21

       Yeah.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett39:21

       I was reading some stats around marriage and how people are getting married less and-

   21. DKDacher Keltner39:24

       Yeah.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett39:25

       ... you know, having less kids and all these kinds of things.

   23. DKDacher Keltner39:27

       Yeah.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett39:27

       So, what's your thoughts on all of that? Are we meant to be monogamous? You've done a lot of research on apes and-

   25. DKDacher Keltner39:33

       Yeah.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett39:33

       ... you talked a lot about them in your, in your work.

   27. DKDacher Keltner39:35

       Yeah.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett39:35

       But are we meant to be monogamous? And if so, how does that relate to the fact that being in a relationship extends our life?

   29. DKDacher Keltner39:43

       What a terrific question. Well, you know, any time that you pose these questions, right, you have to remember, um, you know, and I always approach things from an evolutionary framework, you know, which is humans are many different kinds of individuals, right? There's massive individual variation. And when I, um, you know, and there's cultural variation, so some cultures will be less monogamous, others more. Um, yeah, I think that, I think that, um, the, the safest answer we can offer, and it, and it's dispiriting, and I teach it to my young students-

   30. SBSteven Bartlett40:13

       Hmm.
8. 48:02 – 1:02:45

   Do we become worse people as we get richer?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett48:02

      going back to one of the points you said-

   2. DKDacher Keltner48:03

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett48:03

      ... you were talking about how men in particular struggle to show, express those emotions.

   4. DKDacher Keltner48:07

      Yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett48:07

      Um, and, you know, stereotypically, we're not as, uh, affectionate and kind as-

   6. DKDacher Keltner48:14

      Yeah.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett48:14

      ... as our, uh, female counterparts. One of the things that you talk about is the difference in social class-

   8. DKDacher Keltner48:20

      Yeah, yeah.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett48:21

      ... and how things change.

   10. DKDacher Keltner48:22

       Oh, man.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett48:23

       A- are we worse people-

   12. DKDacher Keltner48:28

       (laughs)

   13. SBSteven Bartlett48:28

       ... the richer and more powerful we become? Because your research seems to sh- show that.

   14. DKDacher Keltner48:35

       Yeah. I would say yes. Um, and I'm sorry to say that, you know. It's, it's, uh, you know, we, um, uh, I got interested in social class, um-... actually living in England. You know, I lived in England in 1978, um, and U- United States is very blind to social class, but we're now more aware of it, Bernie Sanders, et cetera, rightfully so, 1% critique. You know, '80s, '90s, we were just blind to it. It was a more egalitarian time, and I lived in Nottingham, England, very working class town, in a very tough time in England's history of, you know, coal strikes and the like, and it was tough. And, and the English had this, um, just much more sophisticated understanding of class and differentiations between on the dole and working class and posh and, you know, all these categories. I was like, "Wow, class is everywhere. It affects how people speak and dress and eat and so forth." And so we started to apply social class to what we've been talking about, like the compassion, awe, gratitude, em- empathy, kindness, sharing, altruism, and just, you know, across, um, studies and, and, you know, largely in the United States, so I think you could question whether this applies to Holland or UK or Japan, where there, there's less inequality, I might add. Um, you know, as you rise in wealth and privilege, you share less, you feel less compassion to images of suffering. You know, you see an image... This was a striking study to me of, you know, it's a movie about a child who has cancer, and poorer people show activation of the vagus nerve, which is part of compassion. You know, it causes you to, like, wanna help. Well-to-do people, less activation. Uh, they feel less awe as you rise in the social class hierarchy in the United States. Um, uh, are more impolite. And so that was part of my Power- Power Paradox book was that story about class. I, you know, I, I hesitate, I worry about, like, am I a worse person and I u- I'd rather use your earlier language of like, what are the structural conditions that get in the way of this? And you think about, you know, rising in, in wealth and privilege and class is introdu- you s- you create a life that makes it harder to be kind, you know, that you're, people are assisting you with things and, um, you don't come into contact with suffering, you know, you live in a neighborhood in the United States or probably UK where it's like, you don't see it, you know? And so y- it doesn't train those tendencies. And, you know, frankly, um, Stephen, I, you know, I think this is increasingly true in the UK, but in the United States, uh, you know, with one in six people impoverished, uh, life expectancies dropping, you know, 6, 700,000 unhoused people in the United States. Where I live, Berkeley, California, everywhere you go, you're bumping into somebody who doesn't have a home. I, I think it's our central failure, eh, eh, in the US, is how privilege has short-circuited our, our better human tendencies.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett51:52

       How do we know that it's the increase in wealth and social class that is causing us to become less kind and-

   16. DKDacher Keltner52:04

       Yeah.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett52:04

       ... less empathetic, less compassionate, or it's just assholes go further?

   18. DKDacher Keltner52:10

       Yeah. Yeah.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett52:10

       Like, there's a distinction there. Like, maybe these people were always assholes and that's why they became successful or rich or wealthy or whatever or, or, or in a higher social class.

   20. DKDacher Keltner52:19

       Yeah. I, I mean, there are two... And that's a critical question, right? And, and people have long championed this idea that, well, maybe all of this, what it really tells us is you d- you, if you practice awe or compassion, you don't rise in the ranks and you don't gain wealth and the like, and there are two rebuttals to that idea. The first, which I chart in The Power Paradox, which people still don't believe too much, but, uh, on balance today, um, people who practice empathy, who listen and, and share resources, practice gratitude rise in the ranks. They, they do better in social hierarchies. Um, and that replicates in a lot of contexts, and, and really what happens is, that's why I call it the power paradox is, once I have everybody's respect and, you know, wealth and the like, then it- I tend to misbehave, right, in the ways we've talked about through a lot of different, uh, uh, forms of unethical behavior. The other rebuttal is we've actually done experiments, right? And you can take a middle class individual and you can get them into the mindset like, "Hey, you're actually have a lot of advantage vis-a-vis most of society," through simple manipulations, right? "Just think about how you compare to a lot of poorer people." And they're like, "Wow, I'm doing really well." And that simple shift in mindset leads to reduced compassion, reduced empathy. So you can, you can actually move people around where you give them the sense that they're privileged and it tends to undermine these, these tendencies.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett53:54

       Jesus.

   22. DKDacher Keltner53:54

       I know.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett53:55

       That's fucking horrible. Horrifying.

   24. DKDacher Keltner53:56

       It is, and, you know, um, I worry about it. I worry about it a lot, what, um, you know, the, the kind of poor distribution of privilege in the United States and increasing UK and other countries is doing to the social fabric. It's, it's, uh, problematic.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett54:13

       It's interesting, 'cause there is- there's kind of a long, um, prevailing stereotype that rich people are, like, bad.

   26. DKDacher Keltner54:19

       Yeah.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett54:19

       Like, they're, like, less compassionate, um, less empathetic, and I, and I always wondered whether that was just, I don't know, was it true? Was it, um, was it, was it people being jealous? Was it, um, just too much of a broad generalization?

   28. DKDacher Keltner54:33

       Yeah.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett54:33

       Was it, you know, based on th- the acts of maybe a few?

   30. DKDacher Keltner54:36

       Yeah.
9. 1:02:45 – 1:15:28

   Why has life expectancy declined?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:45

      (page flips) You talked about how life expectancy's been declining-

   2. DKDacher Keltner1:02:48

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:48

      ... for the last few years.

   4. DKDacher Keltner1:02:50

      Yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:50

      Why?

   6. DKDacher Keltner1:02:51

      Yeah, you know, in the United States, um, and I don't know the data in the UK, um, and- and it's, um, it's- it's really related to inequality and opportunity and the poor distribution or, uh, of- of opportunity and resources is, um, there have been these amazing findings, uh, related to what's called death by despair. And certain populations in the United States, um, very poor white people, large group of the, um, large subculture in the United States, are often forgotten in the cultural discourse. They're poor. I grew up around these people. Very poor, don't eat good food, schools are not that good, you know, uh, work is uncertain, and they, and they feel disrespected in some sense. And those, that subculture in the US has been killing themselves, you know, with opiates and, you know, drinking and drug addiction and suicides and the like, and it's a serious problem, and it's part of that statistic. And then I think that, you know, if you think about the problems of contemporary culture concentrated in the United States of lack of civility, rage, self-focus, a lot of things that undermine our physical health through the mind, um, that probably is part of this story too. Too much stress, too much loneliness, um, not enough music and joy and shared communal experience. Um, we are struggling, um, and- and that's part of probably that statistic too. And so that's why, you know, as I mentioned, like, the Surgeon General Vivek Murthy, a very smart team, looking at these kind of processes and saying, "How do we build community?" You know, and they're, they've got a big program now. So, it is alarming, and that statistic is important for thi- thinking about where we are.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:02

      I looked at the life expectancy on Google a couple of years ago, and I- I could see that it was basically going up every single year.

   8. DKDacher Keltner1:05:09

      Yeah.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:09

      And then there was these two years, I think it might have been last year or the year before, this was, I think, before the pandemic, um, there was these two years where it had dropped both in the UK and the US-

   10. DKDacher Keltner1:05:17

       Yeah.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:18

       ... in a row.

   12. DKDacher Keltner1:05:18

       Yeah.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:19

       Um, and I was trying to understand why that was, and I heard some social commentators say that there's this epidemic of purposelessness-

   14. DKDacher Keltner1:05:26

       Yeah, yeah.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:27

       ... and describe that as leading to the opioid crisis, but also suicides and all these other behaviors.

   16. DKDacher Keltner1:05:31

       Yeah.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:32

       Um, is that, is that a good way to, in your, in your view to define it, like this epidemic of purposelessness?

   18. DKDacher Keltner1:05:37

       Yeah, it is. You know, thanks for bringing that up, and, you know, purpose, a lot of people now call it meaning-

   19. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:44

       Yeah.

   20. DKDacher Keltner1:05:44

       ... right? What vague term has many different definitions, but it's, you know, I as an individual, how do I connect to things that are larger than self, that don't have to do with income or status directly, but, like, what's my point here in my brief life on Earth? Um, you know, what am I gonna serve? What's the big cause that I'm part of? And this is really emerging in the science of happiness as a central focus of, you know, um, you know, we- we know well, uh, how to find income. We have good ideas about sensory pleasures, what's good to eat, how do I drink wines, what's the great coffee and the like. But we've lost sight of meaning. You know, churches and religions used to give that to us. You know?

   21. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:36

       Mm-hmm.

   22. DKDacher Keltner1:06:36

       And religious participation is on the decline in the West, dramatically so for people your age.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:41

       Mm-hmm.

   24. DKDacher Keltner1:06:42

       Um, where they gave us a big picture of life. And now, you know, young people are hungry for it, and they're challenging a lot of the- the approaches to happiness that- that don't give meaning. You know, new conceptions of work, like, I don't have to stay at one career if it isn't meaningful, new conceptions of romantic relationship. And so, I think, you know, I think a lot of different perspectives are saying this is one of the crises of our times, is meaning, is what will be the big thing you're devoted to?

   25. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:18

       If you were to fast forward-

   26. DKDacher Keltner1:07:19

       How would you answer that question?

   27. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:20

       Uh, which question?

   28. DKDacher Keltner1:07:21

       What are you devoted to?

   29. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:23

       I'm devoted to so many things. I'm, I'm devoted to this, this, this podcast and this show for so many reasons, for, for very selfish reasons, but those selfish reasons happen to be selfless.

   30. DKDacher Keltner1:07:32

       Yeah, aligned.
10. 1:15:28 – 1:19:51

    Compassion

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:28

    2. DKDacher Keltner1:15:28

       Yeah.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:28

       It's a word I've, I've struggled to understand, if I'm honest.

    4. DKDacher Keltner1:15:31

       Yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:32

       Because it w- like, what does it mean?

    6. DKDacher Keltner1:15:33

       Yeah.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:33

       Does it mean being nice to people? What is compassion?

    8. DKDacher Keltner1:15:34

       No. You know, um, compassion is, um, the feeling of concern about other people's suffering-

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:44

       Okay.

    10. DKDacher Keltner1:15:45

        ... and, and then taking action, right? Uh-

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:47

        Empathy, is that-

    12. DKDacher Keltner1:15:48

        Em- empathy is, "I feel the same thing as you."

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:52

        Okay.

    14. DKDacher Keltner1:15:52

        "I understand your mental states. If you're in pain, I feel pain." Compassion is, "You're in pain, and I wanna, I wanna make your circumstances better. I wanna lift up your, your well-being." Um, so it's interesting. Um, compassion is a very dynamic emotion. It's an empowered emotion. It isn't... Nice is great. You know, it's politeness and civility and being considerate. I think we, uh, we need more niceness in the world, and I think we often... I think the connotations of the word nice, uh, sorta devalue how powerful it is. But compassion is powerful. It is the state of wanting to lift up the welfare of other people who suffer. Um, and what's striking about it, and, and I love the neurophysiology of this, and the, the- which really speaks to its power, which is that (clicks tongue) I can see somebody suffering, dying, cancer, uh, flesh wounds, crying, in pain, and when I lock into the compassion response, certain regions of the brain are activated that are different than empathy, the vagus nerve is activated, and it's, it really just throws you into altruistic action, right? So, um, and that's why, you know, when the Dalai Lama, um, you know, who's now one of the most prominent spiritual figures in the world, says, "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion, and if you wanna be happy, practice compassion," that gets to it, right? Like, man, if you can stay close to compassion, you and other people will- uh, and the greater good will do well. It's a really dynamic emotion.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:37

        Is there scientific evidence that proves that y- you will become happier if you're compassionate to others?

    16. DKDacher Keltner1:17:42

        Yeah.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:43

        And what does that scientific evidence show and prove?

    18. DKDacher Keltner1:17:45

        It's amazing, you know, and it, it begins with a study by Liz Dunn, famous study replicated in many different cultures, which is, you give people some money and they can give it away to a s- to help somebody or spend it on themselves. Giving it away boosts happiness more than spending it on yourself. Um, there's research. I love this work, and contagion has been part of our experience here, where, um, if I am kind to you, Steven, um, this is kind of extending from the study, uh, that boosts my life expectancy, it shifts my physiology, it shifts my stress. But I love this work where if I'm kind to you and then the experimenter watches you, in your next interaction, you're kinder to that person, right? I'm not around. My act of kindness makes you more kind downstream. And then that person you've helped actually is kinder to another person in a subsequent interaction. So, you know, the-

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:47

        And they've proven that in s- you know, in a study.

    20. DKDacher Keltner1:18:48

        Yeah, and really nice research on the contagiousness of altruism and compassion. Um, yeah, it is... Like gratitude, it's one of these big winners. You know, if I... There's a loving-kindness practice where, comes out of East Asian traditions, where you just calm yourself, get into some deep breathing, find a quiet, safe space, and orient kind phrases to other people. "I, I... May you be filled with loving kindness. May you be safe from inner, outer danger, well in body and mind."... uh, at ease and happy. And that simple practice, two minutes, right, uh, just calms the amygdala, a threat-related region of the brain, activates reward circuitry. So, you know, um, you know, you talked about and you asked about what are these structural conditions of our busy lives that get in the way of, of the good life, and you've gotta find a few moments just to be kind.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:50

        I

11. 1:19:51 – 1:33:04

    The power of touch

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:51

       was blown away, um, when reading your, your work and watching videos that you produced about-

    2. DKDacher Keltner1:19:56

       Thank you.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:57

       ... um, so many things.

    4. DKDacher Keltner1:19:58

       Mm-hmm.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:58

       The, one of the real startling things is the, the power of touch.

    6. DKDacher Keltner1:20:03

       Yeah.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:04

       I read, I read, um, that if you pat a kid on the back in the classroom-

    8. DKDacher Keltner1:20:08

       Mm-hmm.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:08

       ... that child is three to four, five times more likely to try hard problems on the blackboard, and that touch can make you live longer-

    10. DKDacher Keltner1:20:16

        Mm-hmm.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:17

        ... and be less stressed, just someone touching you.

    12. DKDacher Keltner1:20:20

        Yeah.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:21

        Is that true?

    14. DKDacher Keltner1:20:22

        Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, touch, in a lot of mammalian species, including humans, is just connection. It's, it's identity. It's, "I'm with you." You know, you think early in life, we are constantly being held and in skin-to-skin contact with our caregivers. It's foundational. It's where my sense of me and you connection emerges. The physiology of touch is mind-blowing. You know, our hands are incredible. They're spectacular, um, you know, evolutionary adaptations that can do all kinds of things, including touch. Our skin, eight pounds, billions of cells. Our immune system is in the skin. You know, it registers touch in many different ways, from the sexual, to the friendly, to the cooperative. It goes up into the brain and says, "Man, you're being touched in this way." Uh, and, and that has direct effects on your immune system and your vagus nerve and your heart rate and your, the health of your body. And so, you know, early discoveries, um, you know, you have premature babies, they're gonna die, and, and they used to just put them in these little, you know, um, sort of units that warm them and had them sort of be comfortable and fed, and they would die. And then they figured out you gotta h- hold the n- the premature baby. They needed skin-to-skin contact like they need food, right? And they lived. They gained 47% weight gain. Um, and then, you know, there are, there are just studies time and time again, you know, a nice hug, lower cortisol, uh, a nice embrace with somebody, elevated vagal tone, um, the studies that you refer to of, you know, patting kids on the back, they, they do better in school. Um, you know, and it's so interesting, parts of English culture, you know, Victorian culture, Western European culture, they came up with the idea, like, touch is sexual. It's, you gotta get it... And it is, but only certain kinds of touch are sexual. There's a lot of friendly touch we need, right? And it just shut it down, and now it's coming back. It's, uh... Thank goodness. It's, it's good for us.

Episode duration: 1:38:02