The Health Expert: The One Food (WE ALL EAT) That's Killing Us Slowly: Max Lugavere | E223

1. 0:00 – 1:39

   Intro

   1. MLMax Lugavere0:00

      You know that as your waist expands, your brain shrinks.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:03

      What?

   3. MLMax Lugavere0:03

      Yeah. It's related to- Max Lugavere, he's the author of the New York Times best-selling book, Genius Food.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:09

      A brain food expert. He's just the best in the world at what he does.

   5. MLMax Lugavere0:12

      There's a lot of misinformation out there, and so my passion is to know what's true. So when it comes to sugar, your average adult today is consuming 77 grams of added sugar every single day. That's almost 20 teaspoons.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett0:23

      Jesus Christ.

   7. MLMax Lugavere0:24

      But the issue is, we're designed to overconsume those foods, so you're fighting against millions of years of evolution.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett0:31

      H- how do we solve that?

   9. MLMax Lugavere0:32

      I haven't gotten asked that anywhere else. So- Controversial new research surrounding meat in our diet. Red meat is not associated with the health problems we've been told for decades. People will try to censor you when talking about it, but we know that animal products in particular contain nutrients that are very supportive of good mental health. And there have been a number of studies that have shown that particularly vegan diets put people at increased risk for depression, at least a doubling of risk. I mean, food is so powerful. It's medicine. I get passionate about this, because my mom was a vegetarian. It's clear that her low-meat diet didn't protect her. There was a period where she got really bad really fast, and then she passed away. It was just so incredibly hard. There were times I thought about suicide. It really showed me how fragile life is. We have incredible agency to change our destiny and to change the way really ultimately most of us are aging today.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:28

       So how do we change that?

2. 1:39 – 9:21

   Why do you do what you do?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett1:39

      Max, why do you do what you do, and what do you do?

   2. MLMax Lugavere1:46

      Oh, man. What a place to start. I, um... Well, I do what I do because the most important person in my life, my mother, uh, was very ill, um, from a very young age, and that was the most traumatic... Seeing, seeing her go through what she went through was the most traumatic thing, um, I've ever had to endure in my life. And ultimately, um, it led to me losing her. And when a loved one gets sick... You know, uh, had I struggled with any kind of, like, health condition, it probably wouldn't have been the motivating force in my life that, um, that my mom was for me. But because it was my mom, because it was somebody who, uh, really was such a, a beautiful person and, and who aspired her whole life to be healthy, seeing her succumb to illness, it was a call to action to me to, um, learn as much as I possibly could about health and nutrition, um, and to share that knowledge as I was acquiring it, um, with ultimately anybody who would listen. And so what I do is I consider myself a health and science journalist, uh, with a point of view, I suppose. Um, I'm a filmmaker, I'm a podcaster, I'm an author. Um, but ultimately, my, my mission in life, I think my purpose in life, is to, um, is to help people. Is to help people feel better, live longer, live healthier, and to avert, ultimately, the kind, kinds of conditions that my mom struggled with for so many years.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett3:30

      Zooming in on that then, can you take me to the day that you found out your mom was sick, and what was... Was there a phone call, was there... Were you at, uh, the doctor's with her, and what was the diagnosis?

   4. MLMax Lugavere3:43

      It was, uh, it was around the year 2011. She was 58, roughly, at the time, and I was, I had been living in Los Angeles and my mother was home in New York City, and I would routinely check in with my mom on the phone. And at a certain point, she started to complain to me about, uh, brain fog. And I thought, you know, that that was just a, was par for the course of getting older. Um, it's not a term that was in my lexicon, but, you know, brain fog, you kind of have a sense of, of what someone's talking about when they, when they say that. I started to spend more and more time in New York. I was actually in between jobs, uh, at the time, and because of that, and because my mom's symptoms seemed to be a little bit worse than just, like, you know, some, some passing phase, I started going with her to doctor's appointments, and nobody could give us answers. And I'm from, as I mentioned, New York City, and so we have access in New York to cathedrals, to academic medical insight, right? And so in all of those, in all of those instances, I was just met with a total lack of clarity, and, um, and it was really frustrating for me and my family. You know, one physician would think that it was, uh, depression, for example, and prescribe my mom a, a, a non, uh, you know, like an SSRI drug, which are so commonly taken these days. But her symptoms continued to get worse, and ultimately, we had to take a trip to the Cleveland Clinic. So in the United States, the two, I guess, highest regarded hospitals in the country are the Mayo Clinic and the Cleveland Clinic. I mean, there are probably others in that tier as well, but, um, the reason why we felt the need to travel to the Cleveland Clinic was because they're known for taking on very complex medical cases. And so we had, uh, we took out a couple nights at a Holiday Inn across the street from a hotel, and we show up at the hospital, they assemble a team around the patient, and it was there that week that, um, my mom was diagnosed for the first time with a neurodegenerative condition. The, the diagnosis was unclear, but she was prescribed drugs for both Alzheimer's disease and Parkinson's disease at the same time. And so not knowing anything about either of those conditions... I mean, I, what I did know about those conditions were misconceptions.And, you know, some of them were, for example, that they're old persons' conditions, that they are, you know, some- somehow genetically predetermined. But doing what any millennial with a data plan would do, I went home and I sat on the, or I went back to the hotel and I sat on the couch, um, in the suite, and I started googling Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease, because those were the indications for the drugs that my mom was given. And that was the first time in my life that I'd ever had a panic attack. Like, I, you know, I felt, um, short of breath, I felt the room starting to close in on me, and it was, uh ... That was a real turning point in my life, learning that my mom had a, an i- incurable, progressive condition. Um, and, uh, and that was the point at which I, I really out of, I mean, it wasn't even a, it wasn't even a choice. I just, I, that, you know, I couldn't focus on anything else, anything but trying to understand to the best of my ability why this happened to my mom. And I'm not a medical doctor. I didn't take an academic route. I didn't, you know, get a PhD, but I had always been passionate about health and nutrition and fitness and exercise science. I actually started college on a pre-med track. And I, I'm not saying that that is a, you know, could ever be a replacement for the rigors of, you know, going through the academic channels, but I knew where to find research 'cause I had worked as a journalist, um, after college. And so I, what I did was I, I just immediately dove into the medical literature, and it was really difficult to understand at first. But it's something that, like, you read and you read and you read and you cross-reference and you watch, you know, you read books, you watch TED Talks. Like, I left no stone unturned. I was like, you know, I didn't c- I didn't th- Like, a year, that first year, I wasn't even sleeping. I was just trying to, like, read anything I could get my hands on, and, um, and then ultimately, that search broadened out where I, I started reaching out to experts, like actual scientists who, um, are now ushering, ushering in the concept of dementia as a, uh, preventable condition, and I started asking them questions. And so yeah, that was a journey that began about 10 years ago, um, but it was really motivated by, by that, that sort of initial incident where my mom was first diagnosed, and, uh, and it continued to, you know, watching my mom decline over the following years was really, I mean, it was just so incredibly hard that, um, that it just further cemented my, my, my mission, you know, to try to understand all that I could about these conditions. 'Cause by the time you show up to your doctor's office, you know, a lot of people ask, "Why me?" Right? It seems like, uh, it seems like these diagnoses are something that, like, you know, that the, that the condition that we're being diagnosed for happened overnight, right? But it's not. Uh, like most of these conditions, the kinds of conditions that are now saddling modern society take years, if not decades, to develop. And so to me, what that suggests is we have an incre- we have incredible agency to, to change our destiny and to, and to change the way really ultimately, um, most of us are aging today. And, uh, and so yeah, so I just, I became obsessed, um, and, uh, and I still am, so.

3. 9:21 – 15:06

   Sugar

   1. MLMax Lugavere9:21

   2. SBSteven Bartlett9:21

      So let's talk about Genius Foods, then.

   3. MLMax Lugavere9:23

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett9:25

      Chapter three of this book, you talk about sugar.

   5. MLMax Lugavere9:29

      Yes.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett9:30

      Sugar's something I've thought a lot about recently. I'm on a bit of a food journey myself, trying to correct a lot of things in my diet, and to be honest, I find it all absolutely, like, intimidating, contradictory-

   7. MLMax Lugavere9:40

      (laughs)

   8. SBSteven Bartlett9:41

      ... to the point that I'm not sure, like, where I'm ... Y- I feel like I'm being pulled and pushed from pillar to post, so I'm very keen to try and simplify, um, my understanding of some of these sort of basic nutritional concepts. Sugar. I'm gonna ask you if it's good or bad, and I'm asking that because I'm a Neanderthal and I just want things, you know, my que- a lot of my questions on this subject matter will be very simplified and hopefully the, whoever's listening to this at home shares an equally primitive brain-

   9. MLMax Lugavere10:08

      (laughs)

   10. SBSteven Bartlett10:09

       (laughs) So I can be a bridge to them.

   11. MLMax Lugavere10:10

       (laughs)

   12. SBSteven Bartlett10:10

       But sugar, good or bad?

   13. MLMax Lugavere10:14

       It depends. (laughs)

   14. SBSteven Bartlett10:15

       I knew you were gonna say that and I knew it was a stupid question. (laughs)

   15. MLMax Lugavere10:18

       Well, that's the kind of qu- that's the kind of answer that you should expect from somebody who really knows what they're talking about. The biggest problem, I think, today with regard to sugar is added sugar. So it's not sugar that's naturally found in food. Um, all plant foods have some quantity of sugar. Even kale has a tiny amount of sugar. Um, mostly, you'll find it, uh, you'll find it most concentrated in fruit, obviously, which is, like, the primary source of naturally occurring sugar, um, in the produce section of the supermarket, in, in whole fruit. But the most pernicious source of sugar today is the added sugar, um, the sugar that is added by food manufacturers to ultra-processed foods, usually with the intent of making those foods hyper-palatable. Um, basically, these foods, one of the major problems with, uh, most ultra-processed foods is that they push your brain to a bliss point beyond which self-control becomes really difficult, if not altogether impossible.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett11:14

       I can relate.

   17. MLMax Lugavere11:14

       Yeah, it's like the pint of ice cream, right? We've all had that experience of going over to the freezer, breaking out the pint of ice cream, flipping the top, taking a spoonful, only intending on having that spoonful, and then before you know it, you're looking at the bottom of the pint, right? I've been there. Everybody I know has been there. It's just a ... The problem is that people tend to think that it's a moral failure, right, to, that they screwed up when they're, uh, unable to moderate their consumption of those kinds of foods, whether it's ice cream or cupcakes or cookies or what have you. But the issue is, the real understanding here is that it's not a moral failure. We're designed to over-consume those foods because they light up fireworks in our brain's reward centers because they're so calorie-dense, and now we live in a time where we've solved for the food scarcity problem, right? We have food over-abundance. This is the first time in human history where there are more overweight people walking the planet than underweight people.So we've solved that issue. But our brains, I mean, they're still operating on version 1.0 of the operating system that told them that when we encountered sweet foods, uh, or even savory foods for that matter, because salt is actually a very valuable, um, nutrient as well, that we shouldn't stop consuming them, because we don't know when the next feast is gonna be, right? It was like there were periods of feast and famine. And so our brains and our, ultimately our palates and, and our, (laughs) our willpower are doing exactly what they're programmed to do. So you're fighting against millennia, you're fighting against millions of years of evolution when you try to moderate your consumption of those foods. And I think that's the real problem with added sugar. We tend to overconsume it. We don't tire of eating it. It gives foods these, this quality of being hyper-palatable, and it also has a number of, um, you know, inconvenient, let's just say, hormonal effects that when we really go overboard, um, you know, aren't doing our health any favors. But for your average person today, I mean, we live in a world where at least here in the United States, one in two people is trending towards obesity. Not just being overweight, but, like, obese, one in two. So out of every other person, you know, that person has clinical obesity. And one in two people also have some degree of glucose dysregulation, um, and glucose is essentially sugar. So for that, for your average person, more, for most people, um, most people today have some degree of metabolic dysfunction. The vast majority, in fact, do. And so for that person, sugar really is something, added sugar in particular, is something that really ought to be minimized, if not altogether, uh, avoided. Now, a little bit here and there is not gonna be a problem. No single food can sway your health in any one direction, both, you know, either towards health or towards disease. But it's really, um, I think, important to be mindful of all of the many different places of added sugar in the, in the modern food supply. The other problem, which isn't necessarily a health problem, um, but it's a, it's a, it's a problem with regard to dose, because as I mentioned, dose makes the poison, one of the biggest issues with added sugar is that it's, um, our consumption of it is insidious, meaning it's just hidden everywhere, whether it's commercial bread products or sauces or sugar-sweetened coffee drinks, um, we tend to just consume a ton of it. Your average adult today is consuming something like 77 grams of added sugar every single day. If you wanna just, like, visualize that, that's almost 20 teaspoons of pure sugar.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett14:41

       Jesus Christ.

   19. MLMax Lugavere14:42

       Teaspo- 20 teaspoons of p- pure sugar. This is sugar extracted from the food matrix. So this isn't sugar in fruit. This is just the added sugar that we're consuming by way of these, uh, food-like products that Americans and Brits and people, you know, increasingly around the world in, in developed societies are overconsuming today.

4. 15:06 – 22:59

   Sugar free products

   1. MLMax Lugavere15:06

   2. SBSteven Bartlett15:06

      When I see, you know, fizzy drinks that say they don't have sugar in them, or other things that say they're sugar-free, should I be skeptical? Because so- some, some of these things I eat, I'm like, "I'm eating this, this chocolate bar," and I'm thinking, "This is too good."

   3. MLMax Lugavere15:22

      Yeah. (laughs)

   4. SBSteven Bartlett15:22

      "It says sugar-free or, like, really low sugar, but it just tastes like heaven."

   5. MLMax Lugavere15:26

      Yeah, that's a great, that's a great question, um, and I haven't gotten asked that anywhere else. Uh, it's definitely worth talking about. So a lot of, like, sugar-free products today will use, um... There's a number of ways to make a, a product palatable and still say that you have, that there's no added sugar. So one way is, uh, manufacturers will use a compound called maltodextrin, which is essentially sugar. It's very sweet. It's technically a complex carbohydrate, so they don't have to list it as, uh, as sugar, um, but it breaks down almost immediately, um, into pure glucose. So it's actually a glucose polymer, so it's like be- molecules of glucose bound together v- in a way that's very easy for the body to break down. Um, other ways, they'll add, uh, fake fibers like chicory root fiber or tapioca starch fiber. The FDA is currently investigating whether or not these fibers... 'Cause the whole point of fiber is that we don't, uh, digest it. It's something that passes through us, maybe gets fermented by, um, gut microbiota in our large intestine, um, but it's unclear as to whether or not these, uh, purported fibers actually act like fiber once in our bodies. And so, um, overconsumption of those fibers, uh, can cause all kinds of digestive upset. A lot of people will get, like, incredibly bloated, like, all kinds of inconvenient digestive issues when they overconsume them, and you'll see those a lot in, like, sugar-free products. Um, then you've got artificial sweeteners, you've got, um, other non-caloric sweeteners like stevia, monk fruit. There are sugar alcohols, which, um, sugar alcohols are an umbrella category, and underneath that umbrella, you've got, uh, sugar alcohols that I think are pretty good, actually, like erythritol and xylitol, and then you have others like maltitol and sorbitol wh- where if you overconsume those, again, more digestive upset. So you just really wanna be careful with the, the non-caloric sweeteners that you're ingesting, making sure ultimately that you're not ingesting too much, particularly of, like, these fake fibers and some of the artificial, or some of the, um, you know, the sugar alcohols, because they can really wreck your, wreck your gut.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett17:40

      What's your personal sort of diet regime as it relates to sugar? Do you, d- do you have sugar in your diet?

   7. MLMax Lugavere17:47

      Um, not a ton, uh, to be honest. I try to minimize my consumption of ultra-processed foods, which are, I can define that if you want-

   8. SBSteven Bartlett17:59

      Please.

   9. MLMax Lugavere17:59

      ... 'cause it's a term that I, I feel like I use a lot these days, and, you know, m- people... I, I tend to use it as if everybody knows what I'm talking about. But essentially, you have unprocessed food, which is, like, what you'll find around the perimeter of your supermarket, right? Meat, fish, eggs, vegetables, fruit.Then you have minimally processed foods. So, uh, ground beef, for example, has been minimally processed, right? Um, when you, uh, cook that beef, you're essentially processing beef, right? You're processing food when you cook it. Um, a fruit smoothie is essentially processed fruit, 'cause you're, you're taking a few, you're taking some of the steps away, um, with regard to the assimilation process, right? With a fruit smoothie, you no longer have to chew fruit. You now (laughs) suddenly get to drink your fruit. Um, ultra-processed foods, and you can do all of those, by the way, in your kitchen, so that's the distinction. Ultra-processed foods, um, are foods that you couldn't possibly make in your own kitchen. They tend to be shelf-stable. They tend to, so you, you tend to find them in the aisles of our supermarkets. They have long shelf lives. They come in packages. They tend to have long ingredients lists, um, oftentimes with ingredients that you don't recognize, so that right there is a key, you know, some people listening to this might say, "Oh, well, that's a naturalistic fallacy. Not everything that we can pronounce is good for us, and not everything that we can't pronounce is bad for us," right? I think that's a pretty poor argument. I actually think that, um, it's reasonable in a time where 60% of the calories, uh, a person, your average person is consuming is coming from these ultra-processed foods, and we know that people are metabolically unwell. Um, and we know also that, like, the food industry has lied to us so many times in the past, as they continue to put profit over, um, you know, consumer health and well-being, I think it's totally reasonable to want to know what's in your food. Um, (laughs) and, uh, and so yeah, so if you can't identify and therefore recreate the product, um, in question, chances are it's an ultra-processed food product.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett20:14

       I was gonna ask the question, then, are all ultra-processed foods bad?

   11. MLMax Lugavere20:20

       Great question. Um, so I would say that, uh, as a, as a screening tool, um, ultra-processed foods, you generally want to avoid them. As a diagnostic tool, um, you know, w- are individual food products that happen to be ultra-processed necessarily bad by virtue of their processing? Not all the time. And some examples of some ultra-processed foods that I think are actually, um, quite good, uh, although, again, they are in the minority, would be, for example, like, whey protein. You couldn't make whey protein, or most of us couldn't make whey protein, um, in our kitchens, right? Uh, fat-free Greek, plain Greek yogurt I think is a great high-protein, low-cost, low-calorie, um, food. You know, you couldn't, ge- generally you couldn't make that in your kitchen. Like, you would, you know, you could if you really, like, wanted to put in the e- the, the time and effort. Dark chocolate is something that, you know, tends to be made in a, in a plant, right? But, um, we know that there are significant benefits to the consumption of dark chocolate. I think food manufacturers are becoming wise to, uh, to this, and so now you'll find, like, various high-protein options that, that are shelf-stable and the like, and, you know, it really has to be determined on a case-by-case basis.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett21:41

       Mm-hmm.

   13. MLMax Lugavere21:42

       Um, but just in general, ultra-processed foods are a, are a big problem, because they tend to be not the best for us. Like, the mo- the majority of ultra-processed foods that people are consuming are refined grain products packed with added sugar, um, excess sodium. Sodium's not bad, but like, you know, we, we tend to overconsume it today because of its presence in, you know, in, in, uh, in these ultra-processed products, as a, as a f- used as a flavor enhancer. Um, so yeah, so most ultra-processed products are bad, and (clears throat) it's sort of like, the analogy that I'll draw, it's sort of like the BMI.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett22:20

       Mm-hmm.

   15. MLMax Lugavere22:20

       Um, I don't know if you're familiar with BMI, but BMI is a way that, it's a screening tool for obesity, so when you look at the population level, um, most people with a certain BMI, um, past a certain level, are either obese or severely obese, um, and it's a screening tool. It's not a, it's not a tool that any physician would use to diagnose obesity, because you have to look specifically at a person's body composition. You hear stories all the time, like The Rock being-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett22:43

       Mm.

   17. MLMax Lugavere22:43

       ... technically obese, right? That's why BMI is not a good diagnostic tool, but it is a, it is a fairly, um, trustworthy screening tool. So similarly, ultra-processed foods, yeah, there are definitely some exceptions, um, but in general, they're a, uh, a food category

5. 22:59 – 29:11

   Keto diet

   1. MLMax Lugavere22:59

      to be minimized.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett23:00

      I've been, um, I'm just off the back of trying to, trying to have a ke- ketogenic diet. I tried for about two months.

   3. MLMax Lugavere23:09

      Yeah?

   4. SBSteven Bartlett23:10

      Went well in terms of the superficial results I think I was seeking, um, felt great as well in terms of my focus, my performance. I just felt really good. I felt lighter. I, the, the digestive challenges I was having and the pains and the bloating had completely vanished for those two months.

   5. MLMax Lugavere23:27

      Mm.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett23:28

      But I couldn't stick at it.

   7. MLMax Lugavere23:29

      Mm.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett23:29

      For s- maybe, you know, maybe I have fragile willpower or something, but, uh, and then I had two guests come on my podcast who talked about the ketogenic diet, and they both alluded to the fact that the, the issue with it is your, a human's ability to, like, stick to the thing.

   9. MLMax Lugavere23:44

      Yeah.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett23:45

       What's your position on the ketogenic diet? And, you know, I, I know in your, in your book, I think chapter 11, you talk a little bit about, um, you seem very pro-ketogenic diet.

   11. MLMax Lugavere23:56

       Yeah, I'm pro, I'm pro-ke- the ketogenic diet in certain contexts.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett24:00

       Okay.

   13. MLMax Lugavere24:00

       Um, I'm not a pro, I'm not necessarily pro-the ketogenic diet, um, in every context. I, you don't need to be on a ketogenic diet for weight loss, um, I think that's a, a big misconception, um, but the reason why I talk about it, I mean, you have to understand the context (clears throat) of the ketogenic diet within-... genius foods, which is that from the standpoint of the brain, it's a very important diet. It's an important diet to study. It's an important diet to talk about. As I've mentioned, we've been using it to treat certain ty- types of epilepsy for, uh, 100 years at this point. And that's because it's the only diet that changes the, the biochemistry of the brain. Like, it does that in a very, um, significant way. It provides an alternate fuel substrate to the brain, which normally relies on glucose. Um, but in certain c- in certain, uh, situations, um, the brain can't rely on glucose. For example, with, uh, traumatic brain injury or, um, certainly in the setting of Alzheimer's disease, where the brain's ability to generate ATP from glucose, ATP is the brain's primary energetic currency, um, is diminished by about 50%. And so, you know, if you're able to essentially keep the lights on, so to speak, by providing the brain with this alternate fuel source, um, then that's a really, uh, powerful idea and needs to be studied. And there have been a number of studies, um, on, you know, in the setting of Alzheimer's disease that have shown that, um, at least in the short term, the ketogenic diet seems to provide some degree of, uh, symptom improvement, which I think is, is, is really important. Now, does that mean that the ketogenic diet is gonna be right for every dementia, dementia patient? Certainly not because, you know, it's a, it's an- it is an incredibly hard diet to adhere to. And particularly for somebody with dementia. I mean, putting somebody with dementia on any kind of diet outside of the diet that they're used to is virtually impossible, right? But in Alzheimer's disease specifically, patients with Alzheimer's disease will actually start to develop a sweet tooth. And it's thought that that's in part the brain, a response to the brain crying out for energy, because its ability to create energy, again, from sugar, is diminished by 50%. And so getting somebody, you know, with dementia to adhere to that diet is just really difficult to do. But if we can, you know, if, if, for example, the reader, uh, o- of my book, you know, were to one day have some kind of neurological condition and want to experiment with that, then that's a great thing. You know, we also have various, uh, ketogenic therapies, like whether it's MCT oil or powder or these exogenous ketone supplements. Um, I know people tend to roll their eyes and think that th- these are, like, a fad now, but there's actually an FDA approved medical food on the market for the treatment of, uh, dementia called Axona, which is basically based on these medium chain triglycerides. So this is, uh, this is like real science. Um, there's, uh, there's now lots of evidence, um, suggesting that ketogenic diets can be useful in, in the setting of various types of mental illness. So yeah. So that, so I mean, I, I just think it's, it's so crucially important to talk about. Now, does your average person need to be on a ketogenic diet for, for good health? No. Does the average person need to be on a ketogenic diet to prevent dementia? No. Similarly, you know, it's the same thing with like a, uh, for, for type two diabetes, which is now super common. It's not that sugar in the diet caused type two diabetes. It's the overconsumption of calories and the like, and it's the overfilling. I mean, we eat- that's a whole different rabbit hole, but the overfilling of, of a person's fat silos that then causes fat to accumulate, um, in other organ tissues. Um, and so carbohydrates are part of that problem. But does that mean that carbohydrates caused the issue? Not necessarily. However, for somebody with type two diabetes who essentially has gotten to a point of glucose intolerance, yeah, being on a low carb diet might actually be a good therapeutic option. It's not fixing the issue, um, so to speak, but that's the sa- I would say that's the analogy that I would draw to the ketogenic diet. It's a, it's a powerful therapeutic diet. And, um, yeah, and we have to, we have to keep talking about it. There's a lot of, there's a lot of people that will like, you know, that will try to censor you when talking about it, um, now from the vegan camp. Like the, the, the, you know, people who, who advocate for these plant-based diets, because the ketogenetic diet tends to be a diet that is inclusive of animal products, you know? In some iterations of it, it might even be an hi- a high animal product diet, right? Um, but they're, they're, they're just like against it because it includes animal products. But if you're talking about neurology and you're not also talking about the ketogenic diet, then you're doing a massive disservice to, uh, to patients, I think, around the world.

6. 29:11 – 37:00

   Veganism and vegetarianism

   1. MLMax Lugavere29:11

   2. SBSteven Bartlett29:11

      On that point of vegans, vegetarians, vegans, one of the things you've said is that you think they're putting themselves at increased risk of mental health problems and dementia because some of the important chemicals to avert those diseases are found in animal products like fish and eggs and meat and stuff like that. Um, is that, is that accurate?

   3. MLMax Lugavere29:31

      Yeah. Well, certainly, um, certainly eating fish is associated with reduced risk. Uh-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett29:38

      Dementia.

   5. MLMax Lugavere29:38

      Yes.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett29:39

      Yeah.

   7. MLMax Lugavere29:40

      Um, but also now we're starting to see, uh, other forms of animal products like beef, chicken, dairy are associated with reduced risk of cognitive decline. We know that animal products are the richest source of choline. And we've seen that higher consumption of choline is associated with reduced risk of cognitive decline. There were, just over the past year, there have been a number of really, uh, important studies. Um, generally observational in nature. That's kind of one of the, uh, issues with, um, nutrition science. It's really we, we have very few long term, you know, randomized controlled trials to, to show us with certainty that these connections are causal. But the UK Biobank study, which is a very large population, 500,000 people, um, observational study found that, uh...... a dose response, meaning the more, um, I believe, uh, animal products were consumed, the lower the risk of dementia and Alzheimer's disease by a pretty significant margin. We see that, uh, m- r- red meat is not associated, um, with the kinds of health problems that, you know, we've been told for decades.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett30:52

      Cancer and stuff and heart-

   9. MLMax Lugavere30:53

      Yeah, I mean, it's dietary quality as a whole. There was a great study people can look up. Maksimova, uh, is the first author. I believe the, the, uh, year it was published was 2017 or 2018. They looked at all-caused cancer, and they found that when people were eating meat on a low-quality diet, meaning meat in the context of fast food, right, that yeah, there was an increased risk for cancer. But on- once diet quality was high, meaning that people s- people were eating, um, meat with fresh fruits and vegetables, clearly a dietary pattern indicative of health consciousness, um, that that risk of cancer was completely abolished. Um, so yeah, like, you know, early on in, in nutrition, I think it was, you know, with, with poor quality studies, um-

   10. SBSteven Bartlett31:39

       Sponsored by people that have a dog in the fight.

   11. MLMax Lugavere31:41

       Yeah, exactly. It's, it's very easy to, to zoom out at the population level and to see links drawn between meat consumption and anything bad imaginable, right? Because most of the time, first of all, most pe- people who consume more meat, especially in this country, tend to be more sedentary and they tend to smoke more. Um, they tend to... This is the whole concept of healthy user bias, which is so crucially important. You have to know... If you intend to know anything about nutrition, you have to know about healthy user bias. People who eat more red meat, they tend to smoke more, they tend to be more, uh, sedentary, you know. They tend to eat more fast food. Like most meat products consumed in this country are hamburgers. They're chicken nuggets, you know. Like, they're, like, they're those kinds of foods, ultra-processed meat products. Conversely, if you look at the consumption of fresh fruits and ve- vegetables, um, you see healthy user bias there, too, favoring fresh fruits and ve- vegetables. And that's, you know, it's pretty obvious to understand why. Most people today are, like, obese. They're consuming ultra-processed foods day and night, fast food, shelf-stable convenience foods, the kinds of foods that you, "foods" in quotes, that you would get from, like, a vending machine, for example. Those are, like, that's, those are the foods that are, like, the base of most people's food pyramids, so to speak. And so if you were to take a food like quinoa, for example, which first of all, if you know how to pronounce quinoa, you're probably reading health blogs, right?

   12. SBSteven Bartlett33:12

       (laughs)

   13. MLMax Lugavere33:12

       You've probably listened to a health podcast or two, right? Consumption of quinoa is probably associated... I don't e- I don't know if this study has been done, but I would bet, I would bet $500 today that consumption of quinoa is associated with robust health. Is it because the quinoa is so healthy, or is it because the person that's eating quinoa on a regular basis, that person's probably a pretty health-conscious person? That person probably shops at Whole Foods. That person is probably, has a, a gym membership, you know? So that's healthy user bias right there. And so it works, um, in the inverse sort of way with red meat. There are very few health-conscious, like, red meat eaters. I mean, there are more now, but we're, like, sort of a niche, you know? Like, we're people on the paleo diet, so to speak.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett33:59

       Mm-hmm.

   15. MLMax Lugavere33:59

       Um, most people who consume red meat, yeah, they're eating it in the form of hot dogs and hamburgers and s-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett34:04

       With fries.

   17. MLMax Lugavere34:04

       ... Subway sandwiches with the fries, with the large Coke. So all that is to say is that it's very easy to find, like, links, and that's why there's this funny truism in, like, nutrition science, is that if you look in the nutrition literature, you can find a study to, to back up anything that you wanna say. I'm always hyper-conscious of that. Um, but that's certainly the case with meat because, you know, these observational studies, they just, they, they're so difficult to do, but now newer studies are showing also when you control for these kinds of things, like diet quality, that there's no association. You know, that there's, that, that meat actually is a very nutritious food, um, and with the small, uh, slew of randomized control trials that we have with regard to red meat, we see no negative impact with regard to an, an actual, like, real clinical outcome, and oftentimes we see benefit because it's a pristine, wonderful source of protein, it's a wonderful source of many micronutrients that we know are, people tend to under-consume today. Nutrients of, of concern, so to speak, like zinc, vitamin B12, nutrients that we know that people direly need. Iron. Iron deficiency anemia is a real global problem. One in four people globally are anemic, and half of those cases are due to iron deficiency. And red meat is, like, the ultimate iron supplement, you know? So yeah, so I get passionate about this, I think, in part because my mom was a vegetarian, and, um, there were many times as I was, uh, you know, reading about all this stuff that, um, I wanted to, like, shake my mom and be like, "You know, Mom, you're, you're, you're letting your ideology impact your biology. You know, that's, like, not something that you want to happen." And, um, and you know, I would never go so far as to say that I know what caused my mom's illness. Like, you know, I, I don't even know if it was her lack of consuming meat. I don't know. But, um, it's clear that her, you know, low-meat diet, um, didn't, didn't protect her, you know, and I- I'm pretty convinced at this point that, um, that some is certainly better than none. You know, it does, I don't, I don't advocate... I think some people think that I advocate for a high-meat diet or even, like, a carnivore diet. I don't. I just, I really think it's an important, um, part of a balanced diet, um, and, uh, and a, and a highly nutritious part of a, of a diet. It's actually, like, red meat and animal products in general, they, they tend to be our most nutrient-dense foods. There's a paper by, um, Ty Beal, who's a nutrition researcher whose work I follow, um, that found that if you looked at th- at the top six or so...... most nutrient-dense foods available to us, they're all animal products, with the exception of maybe, uh, dark leafy greens, which are also very nutrient-dense. So, yeah, I'm pretty, um, unapologetic in my, my endorsement-

   18. SBSteven Bartlett36:58

       Hmm.

   19. MLMax Lugavere36:58

       ... of, um, of animal products, yeah.

7. 37:00 – 42:38

   What food should be eat?

   1. MLMax Lugavere37:00

   2. SBSteven Bartlett37:00

      You, and, um, speaking of dark leafy greens and animal products and such, in, um, in your book, in, on page 301, you talk about clearing out your kitchen.

   3. MLMax Lugavere37:10

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett37:11

      Now, I'm, I'm well aware when I asked this question that if you, if you were clearing out my kitchen, you'd first throw out all of the ultra-processed foods.

   5. MLMax Lugavere37:20

      Probably. Maybe.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett37:22

      Yeah, I mean, I'd... I'd want you to do what- whatever's in my best interest, so.

   7. MLMax Lugavere37:25

      I'd be, yeah, I'd be gentle.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett37:26

      Okay. Next, all sources of wheat and gluten is point number two.

   9. MLMax Lugavere37:31

      Yeah.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett37:31

       All sources of gluten?

   11. MLMax Lugavere37:34

       Um...

   12. SBSteven Bartlett37:35

       That's all my bread gone.

   13. MLMax Lugavere37:37

       Yeah. Well-

   14. SBSteven Bartlett37:38

       My noodles are gonna go as well.

   15. MLMax Lugavere37:40

       I think that my st- my stance has, has softened a little bit since I wrote that.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett37:45

       I like the savage. Let's keep it moving.

   17. MLMax Lugavere37:47

       Yes. (laughs)

   18. SBSteven Bartlett37:48

       S- s- um, sources of industrial-grade emulsifiers. What is a, an industrial-grade emulsifier and why has it got to go?

   19. MLMax Lugavere37:55

       Yeah. So specifically, um, in the book, we call out polysorbate 80 and carboxymethylcellulose, which are, (clears throat) uh, synthetic emulsifiers that are used to create pleasing mouth feels in foods, usually combine- that, that combine, um, hydrophilic and hydrophobic substances, so oil and water, um, or fatty substances and a more aqueous solution. And so the, you know, the, the archetypes of those foods would be, um, nut milks and ice creams. And what they've shown, in animal models to be clear-

   20. SBSteven Bartlett38:32

       Salad dressings and stuff as well.

   21. MLMax Lugavere38:33

       Yeah, yeah, salad dressings. Um, what they've shown in animal models is that those substances, um, degrade the mucosa, this like really important lining that separates the inner contents of our GI tract from the, um, from the ep- our gut epithelial cells, um, which, you know, there's a, a chapter in Genius Foods that I'm very proud of on the gut microbiome, all the new science surrounding the gut microbiome and how, you know, the gut-brain axis really in many ways influences not just brain function, but might have an effect on our predilection to disease. And so anything that inflames the gut, the gut isn't like Vegas. Like, what happens in the gut doesn't necessarily stay in the gut. And so these two compounds were shown, um, in animal models, to, uh, have a profound inflammatory effect, um, on the, on the gut. And so I recommend, uh, looking out for them and avoiding them. Now, they're also a sort of a proxy or surrogate, if you will, for ultra-processed foods. Like, ultra-processed foods are gonna have those two compounds in them, um, as opposed to fresh foods. So the dose makes the poison, um, but, uh, but yeah, I would recommend, uh, avoiding them because that study was like pretty, pretty eye-opening. Um, and the chronic consumption of those two, uh, compounds, I would say probably worth, um, you know, avoiding.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett40:10

       Um, I'm looking at this list of, of stuff that you, you've asked me to check out my kitchen, and there's a lot of things here-

   23. MLMax Lugavere40:15

       Yeah.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett40:15

       ... that are currently in my kitchen. Beverages, fruit juice, been a big fruit juice drinker my whole life.

   25. MLMax Lugavere40:20

       Yeah.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett40:20

       When I was younger, they told me that fucking... They told me that orange juice was healthy.

   27. MLMax Lugavere40:24

       (laughs)

   28. SBSteven Bartlett40:25

       I was guzzling orange juice thinking I was doing my body a, a huge service in doing so. And then over time, I've come to learn from having conversations like this that these fruit juices... Man, I thought when I had a fruit, uh, when I had like a fruit smoothie, I thought I was like, you know, I was paying homage to my body.

   29. MLMax Lugavere40:42

       (laughs)

   30. SBSteven Bartlett40:42

       But I've come to learn that I was probably doing my body a disservice in many respects because of the, the sugar, the available sugar content.
8. 42:38 – 48:18

   Why are we addicted to snacks?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett42:38

      so many foods. Like, if I have one Pringle, I, there's... It's gonna take a lot to stop me getting to the bottom.

   2. MLMax Lugavere42:44

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett42:44

      And I don't know why. It's like suddenly I become a Pringle addict. And I've always wondered why that is, because, you know, Brussels sprouts, broccoli-

   4. MLMax Lugavere42:50

      (laughs)

   5. SBSteven Bartlett42:51

      ... you know-I have one, I have two, I have three. Okay, we're done.

   6. MLMax Lugavere42:54

      Yeah.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett42:55

      But the Pringles I can... I'll get to the bottom. Unless I'm in a social situation where I feel slightly embarrassed by eating an entire, like, tube of Pringles.

   8. MLMax Lugavere43:03

      Well, they're... I mean, it's Pringles. Once you pop, you can't stop. That is a, that is a truism with scientific backing. Like, they... we know that Pringles are ultra-processed. We know that they're minimally satiating.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett43:13

      Mm-hmm.

   10. MLMax Lugavere43:14

       There are three characteristics that make a food satiating, and Pringles lack all of them. So one is protein. Protein is the most satiating of the macronutrients. So for anybody struggling with hunger, pangs or whatever, prioritize protein in your diet. Increase the amount of protein that you're consuming. For a person with healthy kidneys, there is absolutely nothing to worry about with regard to high protein consumption. Um, it's the most satiating macronutrient, and it is r- a really important macronutrient for nourishing our musculature, um, and ultimately assuaging our hunger. Like, the more... when you eat more protein, you eat less carbs and fat, and carbs and fat are energy. Protein is... it's very difficult for your body to store protein. Your body doesn't... your body doesn't wanna store... there's so many uses for protein in your body, whether it's to create neurotransmitters or to rebuild your muscle tissue or your bones or ligaments, like, to, to create enzymes. I mean, protein, like there's... protein has so many roles in the body. Carbs and fat, for the most part, are just energy. I mean, there's no such thing as an essential carbohydrate. That's not to say that carbohydrates, um, are bad, by the way, 'cause a lot of people will hear that and say, "Oh, well, I don't... I could, you know, get by on zero carbohydrates." Carbohydrates are important for optimizing hormones, for optimizing exercise performance. But there's no such thing as an essential carbohydrate. It's es- it's essentially energy, and so too is fat. I mean, fat is energy as well. Um, we have a, a minimal daily requirement for essential fats. Um, and we see that higher fat can support, um, energy... you know, as I mentioned, you don't wanna go low fat, because fat supports hormone production. We see that people on low fat diets tend to have lower testosterone. It also s- facilitates the absorption of very important fat-soluble, um, nutrients like vitamins A, E, D and K, and various fat-soluble plant compounds. But it's carbohydrates and fat that are energy, very easily stored, um, by the body, you know? If we... uh, we can easily store carbohydrates in our liver as sugar, glycogen, um, and in our musculature, and we can easily store fat, um, in, in fat. So protein, very difficult to store. Uh, so that's the other... that's, that's the first factor that makes a food satiating. Pringles are a low protein food. The second factor is fiber. Pringles are devoid of... largely devoid of fiber. Fiber slows... you know, like we saw in the... in the apple example, it slows the transit of food in the stomach. Um, it makes us feel more satiated. It al- it also absorbs water, and it mechanically stretches out the stomach, which turns off, um, certain hunger hormones like ghrelin, for example.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett45:53

       So good for weight loss.

   12. MLMax Lugavere45:54

       Yeah, it's good for weight loss to prioritize protein and fiber, dietary fiber. And then, um, water. So water is the number one enemy of shelf stability, and so ultra-processed foods, they want long shelf lives. That's like key to a profitable ultra-processed food product, right? It can be shipped overseas. It can stay for months on the shelf, very little waste. And, uh... and so products like, uh, Pringles, devoid of w- they're completely dehydrated, right? And water... sometimes when we're hungry, we're actually thirsty. It's just that those wires are getting sort of crossed and miscommunicated. Um, but your average hunter-gatherer didn't have access to, you know, running water. They couldn't just pop into their local, like, gas station and buy bottled water, you know? Where did a hunter-gatherer find water when it wasn't, uh, readily available? Um, they would get it from food. They would get it from fruits and vegetables, and even animal products are a good source of, of hydration. So oftentimes when we're... um, when we think that we're hungry, we just need a little bit of, of hydration. So all those three factors, the protein, the fiber and the, and the hydration are all l- severely lacking in Pringles and other ultra-processed foods. Not to call out specifically Pringles.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett47:07

       Yeah (laughs) .

   14. MLMax Lugavere47:07

       Um-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett47:08

       Yeah. L'Occitane.

   16. MLMax Lugavere47:09

       Yeah, but uh, these kinds of foods that we now consume to our detriment today, in the 21st century, would have potentially saved the life of a hunter-gatherer, one of our ancestors back prior to the ubiquity of food stability.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett47:23

       Hmm.

   18. MLMax Lugavere47:25

       So yeah, not to hate on your... on your Pringles addiction.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett47:27

       No, it's fine. They're out.

   20. MLMax Lugavere47:28

       (laughs)

   21. SBSteven Bartlett47:29

       Ladies and gentlemen, I am so excited, um, to introduce and to announce that we have a brand new sponsor on this podcast, and it's a brand that I've used for the last decade, um, across business, across personal life, when I'm holidaying, when I'm traveling for works, even at times when I haven't had somewhere to live, and that is Airbnb. The thing with Airbnb is most people, when they think about Airbnb, they think about the guest side of the, the product. They think about staying somewhere and scrolling through all of the incredible homes that you can stay in. But the entrepreneur in me has always thought about the other side, which is what space do I have, what space am I living in that I could add from a supply side and to create a revenue stream from? That's what I'm fascinated by, and I'll be sharing details about that side of Airbnb in the coming episodes. Thank you Airbnb for supporting us on this show. It means a lot.

9. 48:18 – 55:22

   Mental health

   1. SBSteven Bartlett48:18

      Reading through your, your work was the first time I encountered this distinction between health span and life span. In your own assessment, like what is the d- difference between someone's health span and their life span?

   2. MLMax Lugavere48:31

      Great question. So we're... I mean, today we are living longer, right, thanks to modern medical advances. Not all of us. My mom... you know, my mom didn't have a, a, a lengthy lifespan. But generally, we're, we're living longer, but we are also dying longer. And what I mean by that is that we're spending... our health spans are shrinking. So our life spans are expanding, but we're actually spending more of our life, especially particularly in our latter years, sick.... burdened with, with chronic disease and disability. And so, I think it's really important that we not just have, um, a lengthening, lengthening of lifespan in our crosshairs, but that we also aspire to lengthen our healthspan. So, we wanna, we wanna prevent chronic disease and disability to the best of our ability, and I think that's, that's just crucially important. So, what that implies is, as we age, you know, that we, uh, we continue to be mobile and to move about the world and to be free of depression and we stay connected in our, in our communities. And I think, you know, eating a healthy diet, exercising, staying socially connected, I mean, you know, averting loneliness, uh, these are all crucially, crucially important. And, um, and yeah, unfortunately today, I think we tend to think only in terms of lifespan, "I just wanna live as long as possible." But, um, you know, today for many people, particularly in the Western world, it's, you know, it's like a, it's a double-edged sword because yeah, you're living longer, but you're, you know, most, most people in, in elder age today are frail, you know, they have chronic, chronic health conditions, um, and, uh, and it's a big problem.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett50:20

      You mentioned depression there. Um, I've, I've been learning a little bit lately about the role that our diet plays in our mental health. Um, you, you referenced earlier that your mother was given antidepressants-

   4. MLMax Lugavere50:32

      Yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett50:32

      ... SSRIs when she was going through her, her period of ill health. What's your, what's your assessment on the role that food plays in mental health? What i- what foods are typically, in your view, good for our mental health, helping us to avoid depression, anxiety, whatever else, and what, what foods are typically bad for our mental health?

   6. MLMax Lugavere50:52

      Oh, man. Yeah, mental health is so... I, I learned this recently, which is just shocking that, um, the number two cause of death for people between the ages of, uh, 15 and 35, in that sort of ballpark demographic, the second cause of death is, uh, suicide, and that's just shocking to me. The first is unintentional injury, so it's like drunk driving and just, you know, doing stupid things. But yeah, when it comes to mental health, I mean, our, our mental status is highly responsive to the outside, to our, to our environment, and our environment includes how we're living our lives, the people that we surround ourself with on a daily basis, um, and indeed, the foods that we're eating. So, you know, I think when it comes to mental health, there are, uh, a number of really interesting observational studies that show us that, um, vegan and vegetarian diets, but I think particularly vegan diets, are... put people at increased risk for, um, depression, um, by, the latest data that I've seen, at least a doubling of risk. Now, the question that always arises there is, is the vegan dietary pattern, um, causing the depression or are people who, uh, are more prone to depression gravitating to the vegan diet? I think it's probably bidirectional because we know that animal products, in particular, contain nutrients that are, that seem to be very supportive of good mental health. Um, there was one study out of Deakin University's Food and Mood Center that found that, uh, women who didn't consume the nationally recommended three to four servings of red meat per week were at twice the risk of developing, uh, major depression, um, and they didn't see that association for other animal proteins. So, they didn't see it for chicken and pork. And they also saw an increased risk when people, when women ate, um, much more than the, than that three to four serving recommendation. Um, and when you actually look into what red meat contains in it, um, it contains a lot of nutrients that we know directly support the brain, whether it's zinc or vitamin B12. Um, you could look at, uh, a food like beef liver, which is one of the best sources of folate. We know that low folate consumption is associated with depression. Um, so I think that's, you know, I think animal products, super important, eggs, you know, a rich source of choline, um, fatty fish, but generally, like, whole foods. I think whole foods, a, a whole food dietary pattern, so, you know, minimally processed, again, like the foods that you find around the r- perimeter of the supermarket that you cook for yourself.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett53:33

      Mediterranean diets.

   8. MLMax Lugavere53:34

      Mediterranean style, yeah. I don't care what proportion of animal products or plant products, you know, you have, although I think including both to some degree, um, is probably better than not, uh, provided you're not allergic or, or have any specific sensitivity. But, um, they're now using diet as an intervention to improve symptoms. So, the same, uh, Food and Mood Center, which is actually one of the institutions that's really, um, that's really kind of championing this field of nutritional psychiatry pr- uh, published the first ever randomized control trial where they used a dietary intervention to treat depression, major depression. So, it was called the SMILES trial, and anybody can look this up, but they used a, uh, a whole foods diet, Mediterranean-style diet that was inclusive of red meat, fish, dark leafy greens, berries, olive oil, eggs, things like that. And they found that, um, in the patients with major depression compared to controls that were treated with the standard of care, they saw, they saw something like a, uh, threefold increase in, um, remission from the dietary intervention. Now, these were patients obviously that, or, or I guess not obviously, but they were patients that were on a junk food diet.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett54:50

      Right.

   10. MLMax Lugavere54:50

       So, if you're on a junk food diet, um, which most people are, and you're seeing, you know, and, and your mood is not where you think it ought to be, I absolutely think a first line of defense should be-... you know, adopting more of these, or integrating rather, more of these, um, these, these whole foods and cutting out the ultra-processed foods. And then, of course, I mean, like, sort of, uh, you c- you can't really talk about, um, lifestyle and mental health without mentioning exercise. Exercise is, you know... I mean, there's, like, a bounty of evidence at this point showing us that exercise is, like, literally medicine for the brain.

10. 55:22 – 1:08:19

    Stressers/stressors

    1. MLMax Lugavere55:22

    2. SBSteven Bartlett55:22

       Saunas, something you talked about as well. Saunas being... having a positive impact on cognitive function via, I believe, the chemical that's called norepinephrine?

    3. MLMax Lugavere55:32

       Norepinephrine, yeah.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett55:33

       That's what I said.

    5. MLMax Lugavere55:34

       Or, uh, I believe on your side of the pond, it's called noradrenaline. It's the same thing.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett55:38

       Noradrenaline, okay.

    7. MLMax Lugavere55:38

       Yeah, it's the same, same compound.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett55:40

       And that has a cognitive relationship, that has a relationship with cognitive performance?

    9. MLMax Lugavere55:45

       Yeah. So norep- norepinephrine is actually produced in a part of the brain called the locus coeruleus, which is, like, one of the first structures to become damaged in Alzheimer's disease. And so that's sort of like the hub of norepinephrine release. And we see that when we apply, um, physical stress to the body, of which saunas are one type, um, that there's a, uh, an upregulation of norepinephrine release. And, um, and yeah, so that might, in a way, sort of help, uh, you know, prime the body to, to, um, adapt and become more resilient 'cause that's essentially what stressors do to the body. That's the whole concept underlying hormesis. Uh, that hormesis, which is like low doses of, um... low to moderate doses of a stressor actually are n- are, as opposed to being, rather than be- b- than being harmful to the body, actually elicit an adaptive response that makes the body, um, come out on the other side stronger and more resilient. And so that is the, um, that's essentially the mechanism, um, the proposed mechanism underlying why it seems that saunas are beneficial to our health. And, but also exercise, and also cold water immersion, and also, um, intermittent fasting, and also even some of these, like, plant compounds. You know, like we, we consume myriad, uh, compounds in plants that, if we were to consume big doses, might actually have a toxic effect, but in small doses, actually are thought to benefit our health via the same hormetic pathway. But yeah, sauna use, a lot of the research is coming out of, um, the University of Eastern Finland, which is, uh, a great place for this research to be done because saunas in Finland are like taking a shower.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett57:37

        (laughs)

    11. MLMax Lugavere57:37

        So you could say, uh, i- if that study were done, if those studies were being done here in the United States, you could easily write them off to healthy user bias 'cause somebody who's regularly sauna-ing is, um, or taking a sauna, as the Fins say, is pro- uh, probably has access to a gym, probably, you know, is going to the spa regularly, probably is, like, putting a great deal of attention on their own physical health, right? But in Finland, that's not the case. People aren't doing saunas as, like, a health modality. They do it because they love it, because it's a salve to the, you know, to, to the cold temperatures there, and it's just a part of, like, the normal, like, routine. And so what they're finding is that, um, u- just using a sauna two to three times a week is associated with a 22% risk reduction for dementia, and using it four to seven times per week is associated with a 65% reduced risk for the development of dementia. So that's like a dose response. The more you use it, the more robust the health effect seems to be. And it's not just for dementia. They've seen a, a reduced risk for hypertension, which we know is really important. We know that the brain, that blood pressure is really important from the standpoint of brain health, so you wanna make sure that your blood pressure is healthy. Also, um, all-cause mortality. Now, just to be clear, th- these are, these are still correlational studies. But mechanistically, there is plausibility there, and that is, you know, we know that when you use a sauna, it does have a positive impact on your blood pressure. We know that it can reduce inflammation. We know that it gets your heart rate up. I mean, I know this. When I, whenever I use a sauna, I put my finger on the artery-

    12. SBSteven Bartlett59:08

        Yeah. (laughs)

    13. MLMax Lugavere59:08

        ... in my wrist, and I can see that I'm getting, like, almost like a mild aerobic workout. And so we know that that's like, that's... Saunas are essentially, like, the best workout that you can have while sitting absolutely still. You're also purging toxins through your, um, through your sweat, compounds that aren't as, um, e- as, uh, effectively, uh, excreted via stool and urine. So it's like, you know, there's, there's a lot of good stuff going for saunas. And of course, more research needs to be done, um, but all indicators seem to point towards a, uh, a, a positive health effect.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett59:41

        It's really interesting that, um, you know, our ancestors probably had natural stresses on them at all times, and we've kind of built a life around mitigating stresses. So you know, living in very warm, like, room temperature, houses, sat on sofas, use this piece of glass to order my food, my date-

    15. MLMax Lugavere1:00:01

        Yeah.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:01

        ... to talk to my friends. It's almost like with, we're optimizing our lives, like, away from stresses, and these stresses seem to be so critical to the natural hormone and physiological responses that make us healthy human beings.

    17. MLMax Lugavere1:00:13

        Totally, yeah. It's like, I've heard it referred to as, like, the comfort crisis.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:18

        Yeah.

    19. MLMax Lugavere1:00:18

        Yeah. It's, it's a, it's a big problem, whether it's, like, constant, you know, constant climate control, um... So, I mean, just, like, so few of us are willing, at any point, to venture out of our comfort zone and to be uncomfortable, and I think our biology suffers as a result. This isn't just, um, you know, this is like, there, there's actual now basic science underpinning this concept that when we apply stress to the body or even via the foods that we consume, this, like, mild hormetic stress than we get, that we get from certain compounds, whether those compounds are in turmeric or kale or broccoli or what have you, that, um, what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. And it, it fosters a degree of anti-fragility.... which, um, I love, you know. I think it's like, I think it's so important. I mean, if you think about it, we didn't evolve over millennia to arrive here and be taken down by a peanut, you know?

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:21

        (laughs)

    21. MLMax Lugavere1:01:21

        Or like, or a- all of these, like, you know, we're seeing this, th- this crazy inc-, uh, like, spike in, in autoimmunity and incidents of autoimmune conditions and allergies and the like. And, you know, I think it's a, it's a testament to how dysregulated our lifestyles have become, how removed our lifestyles have become from the kinds, from, from the world in which we evolved. And, um, and w- part of what's been lost is the stress, is the beneficial stress, as you've mentioned.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:52

        What is the unbeneficial stress, the impact it has? I, you know, chapter 10, you talk a lot about, about chronic stress. One of the, one of the things you said was, um, "Ever see a person with a bulging midsection, but surprisingly skinny arms and legs? This is the picture of chronic stress."

    23. MLMax Lugavere1:02:09

        Yeah. Chronic stress is a killer. It, I mean, we evolved to see a threat, have a stress response, respond to that threat, and then go back to our baseline level of functioning, right? Today, our stressors come not from physical threat, right? From the lion on the savanna that's running towards us or towards our progeny, um, where the, the st- the stress that we, that most of us experience today, it's a new breed of stress. It's from, you know, it's from work. It's from n- it's from chronic consumption of the news media. It's from being stuck in relationships that have gone sour, working jobs that we hate, financial stress. I mean, there's all different kinds of stress. And not all of that stress is avoidable, just to be clear. I mean, when I was going through what I went through with my mom, I couldn't avoid that stress. But what did I do as a, as a way to cope because I couldn't avoid it? I built up my own resilience. And we see that, um, you know, whether it's exercise or these hormetic stressors that we were talking about, that you actually can, by exposing your body to physical stress, you can bolster a degree of psychological stress. There is what's called a spillover effect, um, and, and a, and a cross-adaptation effect that occurs. But chronic stress, I mean, one of the problems is that it's like it's sustained and it causes a change in our hormonal milieu that suppresses immune function. It, um, causes our adipocytes, so our fat cells, to release proinflammatory compounds, um, proinflammatory cytokines. It causes this, you know, chronic release of the hormone cortisol, which is not a bad hormone by any means, but, you know, that can, over time, have a negative effect on, um, brain function, on, on memory function. It impairs digestion when we're chronically stressed. And we know that, um, you know, the gut is crucially important when it comes to modulating inflammation in our bodies, helping us to assimilate nutrients from the foods that we're consuming. And if you're chronically stressed, you're just not doing that as well. Also, people who are chronically stressed, I mean, they have digestive symptoms, right, as a result, whether it's like diarrhea, bloating. Like, I mean, this is people, like, before public speaking, they often see, uh, uh, um, they often have, like, digestive symptoms, right? That just goes to show you how intricately connected like our, our perception of, of a, of a, of, of like, you know, stress and how that can affect our biology. Um, and so that example that I gave in the book about that apple-shaped torso, one of the most harmful places to store fat, um, in the body is in our midsection. So that apple-shaped body, that is attributable to an excess of visceral fat, and this is fat that essentially hugs our internal organs and is particularly proinflammatory, so it secretes, as I mentioned- We know our, that our fat is an endocrine organ, which is essentially an organ that secretes hormones. Um, it's not just an in- an inert storage site. And those fat cells have, um, I believe, uh, four times the cortisol receptors as compared to regular, run-of-the-mill subcutaneous fat that you store in your, like, you know, underneath your arms and, you know, on your thighs. And we know that visceral fat is, um, associated with dramatically, you know, worse cardiovascular health, increased risk of cardiovascular events. We know that as your waist expands, your brain shrinks. Um-

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:50

        What?

    25. MLMax Lugavere1:05:50

        Yeah. Well, it's, it's probably related to cortisol 'cause we know that cortisol causes that, when cortisol's chronically elevated, and particularly when we're, we then self-medicate with these ultra-processed foods, f- foods that are high in sugar, right, which we all reach for when we're stressed out, right, to emotional, like to, to, to soothe ourselves, right, with food. We tend to store fat, um, there, like in the midsection. So (clears throat) it's not that stress, uh, causes us to store more fat necessarily. I mean, fat storage is largely regulated by energy balance. But what it can do is dictate where we store that fat. And as I've mentioned, it's the storage of fat in our midsection that's particularly dangerous. And so, um, and so yeah, so that, that, the effect that cortisol can have there, it also, it has a negative effect on other tissues. Um, it can have a negative effect on our, um, total brain volume, as we've seen in some studies. Um-

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:53

        Just to be clear, where does cortisol come from?

    27. MLMax Lugavere1:06:55

        Our adrenal glands.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:56

        Adrenal glands?

    29. MLMax Lugavere1:06:57

        Yeah.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:57

        And there's certain foods that stimulate the production of cortisol more than others?
11. 1:08:19 – 1:16:37

    Sleep

    1. MLMax Lugavere1:08:19

       basis.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:19

       You mentioned honey there, and, uh, sleep. Um, something, again, I've been thinking a lot about ever since I bought myself a Whoop, um, which tracks my sleep and gives me some data in the morning about how I slept, is how to improve my sleep via my diet.

    3. MLMax Lugavere1:08:34

       Hm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:34

       Um, what advice would you give me there, if I wanted to have deeper, deeper, uh, more quality sleep? What should I be eating, not eating, avoiding, what times, et cetera?

    5. MLMax Lugavere1:08:46

       Yeah, I mean, generally you just, you wanna not eat too close to bedtime. Um, there's sort of like a Goldilocks zone where, you know, I think we're m- as diurnal creatures, meaning creatures that are, that typically eat during the day, you wanna eat your last meal about two to three hours before you go to sleep. You don't wanna go to bed hungry. I mean, people, people obviously have different, um, you know, different preferences, and I think preference in many ways, uh, reigns supreme. But what, what we know from, um, circadian biology is that we're meant to eat about two to three hours before we go to sleep, and, um, and you don't, you know, like That's to give space between (clears throat) your last meal and sleep, because sleep is a time for rebuilding and restoring. We see this, like, interesting hormonal shift in the body that is really, like, it's why sleep is, you know, we rejuvenate in many ways, like our bodies, our cells, our tissues when sleeping. Part of, like, how we get there is a change in body temperature, and, you know, we see this, like this, this dip in body temperature right before we go to sleep, um, or just after actually we, we go to sleep. If you eat a, like a, a really like meat-heavy meal right before you go to sleep, um, a lot of people notice that doing that can negatively impair sleep. And I think one of the, one of the proposed mechanisms why that happens is that we have, uh, the thermic effect of protein is quite high, um, particularly compared to fat and carbohydrates, and so you've got this, like, internal furnace, like, burning in your gut, like, to try to break down and assimilate all of the precious amino acids that you've just ingested. And so I think that can sometimes be at odds with, um, with, like, that wind-down process, that circadian, you know, wind-down process. So yeah, just, I would try not to eat too close to bedtime. Many people, um, feel like eating carbs before bed does help them sleep for that same reason, like maybe they have cortisol, you know, still like, um, you know, a bit of, of cortisol dysregulation, and carbs before bed, uh, seems to, seems to be able to help with that. Um-

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:00

       What do you, when do you eat? I- if, if not before bed, like, you know, sometimes I've been guilty of eating while I'm falling asleep. This is old Steve, not new Steve.

    7. MLMax Lugavere1:11:09

       Mm-hmm.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:10

       Um, but when do you eat? You talked about intermittent fasting. I read some things that said you start eating roughly at, like, 11 o'clock in the morning?

    9. MLMax Lugavere1:11:17

       Yeah.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:18

        What, what's the window in which you, you eat?

    11. MLMax Lugavere1:11:21

        I generally will... Yeah, I don't, I generally won't have my first, like, food until, um, these days it's about 10:30, 10:30, uh, 11:00 in the morning. I've been experimenting with, um, carbohydrates before exercise. For a long time, I was, I really enjoyed fasted workouts, and, um, and lately I've been experimenting to see what a little bit of peri-workout carbohydrate does for my, for my lifts, 'cause I'm really into, I love fitness, so. Um, so I've been kind of experimenting a bit with that. But the general rule of thumb that I practice is that I don't eat for an hour to an hour and a half after I wake up. Um, part of the reason for that is, and again, just to, like, preference, you know, per- per- personal preference is, uh, is really, like, key here. So, you know, a lot of the, like, recommendations that I'll make, like, you might see a smidgen of benefit, but at the end of the day, like, if you can't, you know, work out at the optimal time or, you know, eat in the optimal windows, like, you know, still what you eat and making sure that you are getting exercise is better than, like, not because of, like, a fear that you're not doing it, you know, optimally. Like, work- exercise is crucially important, eating a whole foods, you know, animal-inclusive, plant-inclusive diet, I think optimal. Um, but, you know, what circadian biology is, is showing us is that when you eat immediately after waking up, um, you know, you might not have had your melatonin, for example, uh, fully subside, which is a sleep hormone. Um, when melatonin is elevated, as it starts to, um, you know, it starts to rise once the sun, um, begins to set, that sends the signal to our bodies essentially that the kitchen is closing.... that the kitchen is closing and that, you know, the, we're, we're now approaching the time where, you know, we're gonna change the guar- it's, uh, like a changing of the guard essentially where we're gonna focus on rejuvenation and repair. Um, when people wake up in the morning, that hormone hasn't fully necessarily subsided yet, and that can have the, um, consequence of making us not as insulin sensitive. So, it might impair glucose regulation, um, while it's still elevated. And, um, and so like eating carbohydrates in that window particularly like as they typically appear in the standard American diet, the bran muffin, the glass of orange juice, like that's I don't think, uh, you know, like an appropriate breakfast for that time of day. You know what I mean? You might be able to get by with something like that later on. But generally, like after you wake up, you want your melatonin to fully subside and also cortisol, which is your body's, you know, we talked about that as a stress hormone. Cortisol's not bad. It's also your body's chief waking hormone. That's the highest that it's gonna be throughout the day in the morning. And I mentioned that cortisol is catabolic. Well, one of the reasons why cortisol, like one of the effects that cortisol has is it helps to liberate stored fuels in the body whether it's, you know, sugar stored in your liver, um, or even fat. You know, people tend to wake up in a fat-burning state, and so I like to just give my body like an hour and a half to like let the, my hormonal milieu adapt and get ready for like, for food.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:48

        Do you go outside?

    13. MLMax Lugavere1:14:50

        Yeah. As, uh, almost immediately after I wake up, I like open my blinds, so I have like a really big window. It allows like light to come in. You really want that morning light. Um, it's crucially important. I, uh, I've been a fan of, um, Satchin Panda, his work for a long time. He's a circadian biologist down at Salk, the Salk Institute. Um, and, um, and he's published a lot of great research. Actually, I think he, he helped to, uh, uh, discover the melanopsin, um, proteins in the eye that interface directly with this region in the brain. It's called the suprachiasmatic nucleus. So it's, it's like, it's like a switch gets set when we expose our eyes to bright morning light that essentially starts a 24-hour timer that influences our energy levels, our alertness, our coordination, um, our body temperature. And then at the end of the day, when we are, you know, like when we start to feel sleepy and when that sort of diurnal or nocturnal rather melatonin, um, curve begins to pick up. So yeah, like setting, setting your circadian rhythm first thing in the morning with, with bright light exposure is super important. Even on a, on an overcast day, the ambient light is more than enough to, um, to flip that switch. So yeah, that's a cru- that's crudely- crucially important. My morning routine is essentially, like I wake up. I open my blinds. I get like, I make sure that I'm whether it's like, you know, checking my phone or whatever it is, emails like by the window so that I get that nice ambient bright light to anchor my body's circadian clock. Um, and then generally like I wait, uh, an hour, and I'll have like morning coffee and then that's, you know, when I'll like eat something. These days, you know, it'll be a mixed meal with like protein and carbohydrates, and that's when I, I will typically hit the, hit the gym soon after

12. 1:16:37 – 1:21:08

    Coffee

    1. MLMax Lugavere1:16:37

       that.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:37

       I've been asking everybody. You just mentioned coffee there. I've been asking everybody this question to try and figure out if someone can, uh, give me a, a, a new answer. But, you know, coffee seems like this kind of miracle drug because everybody can point to the upsides of having coffee in the morning, whatever, but nobody has been able to really articulate to me the cost. And all these things in life have a cost, right? We, we live in a society now where many people will have multiple cups of coffee before 12:00, before midday, and nobody seems to be able to tell me what the cost of that is.

    3. MLMax Lugavere1:17:10

       (laughs)

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:10

       But there must be one because nothing in life is free.

    5. MLMax Lugavere1:17:12

       Yeah.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:12

       (laughs) So, so what is the cost?

    7. MLMax Lugavere1:17:14

       Well, everybody's different, so, you know, people metabol- some people are slow caffeine metabolizers, others are, are not. Um, and so, you know, you have to, you really have to like determine for yourself whether or not coffee is something that works well for your body. It is a type of stress, I will say that, so for people who are chronically stressed, adding coffee to the mix, um, is probably, uh, you know, just adding fuel to that fire. And it's not that I want you to get rid of the coffee. I'd rather see you get to the root cause of where that stress is coming from. Um, but, you know, it can stimulate cortisol re- release and it's, it is, uh, it is a powerful stimulant. We know that. Um, it can also negatively impact sleep. It, it actually affects your brain similarly to bright light, so that's why, you know, I mean, for many reasons, you wanna make sure that you're, you, you are consuming it, um, you know, far, far away from your, from bedtime. But it, it, it honestly is hard to find, um, a downside to coffee. I mean, there, there really is good, there is good research on it. Recently it was discovered that the caffeine in coffee acts like a natural PCSK9 inhibitor. So, I know that's like an unfamiliar, it's like a mouthful, but there's a new class of, um, I think relatively, uh, you know, benign cholesterol-lowering drugs on the market called PCSK9 inhibitors. Now, I'm not anti-cholesterol or anything like this. Some of our most healthful foods actually act like natural PCS, PCSK9 inhibitors. Dietary fiber in a way is like a PCSK9 inhibitor. But they found that high dose caffeine actually, um, at about a dose of about 400 milligrams, uh, can actually act like this drug where it makes your liver more effective at recycling, um...... cholesterol carrying lipoproteins like LDL. And so that, that kind of, like, adds a mechanism to the observation that we've seen, that people who regularly drink coffee, uh, seem to be protected against cardiovascular disease, and even neurologic conditions like Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's, and MS. So it, there seems to be this, this protective effect of coffee, but it's always important to caveat these findings with the fact that these are averages.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:37

       Hmm.

    9. MLMax Lugavere1:19:37

       So an average coffee seems protective. But certainly within those, the, those cohorts that are being studied, some people are doing really poorly with coffee as well. So you just, you know, it's, it's something that you really have to, like, regularly take inventory and ask yourself, like, "Is this working, you know, for me?" I think one of the healthier ways to ingest coffee is to not consume it immediately after waking up, which, you know, I'm guilty of doing many days. But like, you know, it's, it's generally something that's like you're better off consuming, like, an hour or two after you wake up. Um, and again, not, you know, not too late into the afternoon, um, either. And, and, like also, you know, the dose I think is really important. Um, people that develop caffeine def- dependency, you know, they think that they're, they're improving their performance with caffeine, but what they're really doing is they're treating their withdrawal from caffeine. So another way that I like to kind of, um, make sure that I'm consuming it in the most mindful way possible is I'll take, like, occasional, uh, weeks off from caffeinated coffee and I'll switch to decaf.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:39

        Interesting.

    11. MLMax Lugavere1:20:39

        Um, yeah, and it's, uh, I feel like it sort of helps, like, resensitize my brain, breaks the dependency a little bit, and then I bring it back. And when you bring it back, man, you see what a drug, you know, what a potent drug coffee really is, you know? But in general, I'm a fan. I'm a fan of, of coffee.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:56

        Everybody is.

    13. MLMax Lugavere1:20:57

        It's rich in, in polyphenols. It, um, it's a natural activator of our body's Nrf2 pathway, which is like a d- a detoxifying pathway in the body that's also stimulated by cruciferous vegetables.

13. 1:21:08 – 1:34:24

    Is travel good for our health?

    1. MLMax Lugavere1:21:08

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:08

       Nobody can say anything bad about coffee. It's like everybody's part of the conglomerate and, uh, everyone's got like an affiliate link or they're on payroll or something, but ...

    3. MLMax Lugavere1:21:14

       Yeah.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:15

       So it's actually, it's actually changed my perspective, because I just assumed that anything that was such a s- such a powerful stimulant must have a real significant downside. But I've asked a million people this question. Not a million, but it's, it's maybe six people this question, some of which have written books about coffee, and I'm still yet to hear a compelling argument against having coffee in and amongst your diet, as you say, um, a few hours after you wake up. So one of the things that really did catch me, uh, off guard was, it was in your, um, your book The Genius Life where you talk about this study with the mice, and you make the case that travel is a, has positive relationships with health.

    5. MLMax Lugavere1:21:52

       Hmm.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:53

       Like, it has health benefits. Not something I've ever heard anybody say before, that travel is good for our health.

    7. MLMax Lugavere1:21:58

       Yeah. Wow, I'm glad you brought that up. Um, because this i- this, that also kind of parlays into another concept that I've been lately thinking about, um, a lot for the first time. Well, first of all, the, so the study that I talk about in the second book, The Genius Life, is the fact that they, you know, the, just how important novel experiences are for the brain. They will take mice and keep them confined to, you know, like a, a very, a limited area, and they see that they're, they suffer. They suffer in terms of their bodies and their brains. And then, they let that mouse, or they let, um, you know, intervention mice go and explore what they call enriched environments, and they see something like four-fold, um, you know, like they s- they see like a, an upregulation in various indicators of neurogenesis, which is really important. It's like the creation of new brain cells. So all that is to say, like, you know, it's important to do novel things. And as I say this, you know, this is something that I struggle with in my, in my, in my own life 'cause I am a creature of habit, and I would routinely f- get the sense, this gnawing sense that I'm living Groundhog Day over and over and over again, where I, I wake up and I do a few things, like work-related, I work out. But ultimately, like, I've got, like, this routine that I love, and I tend to do that on script every day. But I started to get this feeling like I'm just, like, waking up, doing a few things, going back to bed, waking up, doing a few things, going back to bed. Like, before I know it, like, um, my head is just, like, on my pillow again.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:31

       Hmm.

    9. MLMax Lugavere1:23:31

       And it's, it g- it started to get, like, really frustrating to me until I discovered that Groundhog Day syndrome is actually a thing. And, um, essentially what it is, is, you know, our brains are, and this ties back to the mouse study, our brains are efficiency machines, right? It's conservation of energy. Our brains and bodies don't wanna do any more work than they absolutely have to, right? Because, I mean, now we know that food is, like, ever-present, always at arm's reach. But for the longest time, that wasn't the case, and our brains are massive energy consumers. Our brains speak for 25% of our basal metabolic rate, despite accounting for only 2% to 3% of our body's mass. So anything that the brain can do to make its functioning more efficient, it'll do. So when you do the same things every single day, what does your brain do? It prunes away excitement, joy, happiness (laughs) .

Episode duration: 1:50:17