The Diary of a CEOThe Leading Sex Expert: How To Have Great Sex EVERY Time! (And Fix Bad Sex): Tracey Cox | E247
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,015 words- 0:00 – 3:04
Intro
- SBSteven Bartlett
You've written 17 books on the topic of sex. So, my first question, how do we have the best sex of our lives?
- TCTracey Cox
That's the question that everybody wants to know. The first thing is- (bell rings)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Tracey Cox. The world's most celebrated sex expert. She's got the answers to the questions you've always wanted to know, and has the secret to a great sex life. (bell rings) There is a decline of sex, isn't there?
- TCTracey Cox
Yes. There's a sex recession. If you haven't had sex for a year with your partner, it is very unlikely you're gonna have sex again. (bell rings)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, really? Are you hopeful that we can turn that around?
- TCTracey Cox
Yes, absolutely. The key thing is- (record scratches)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Women fake their orgasms.
- TCTracey Cox
We have known that women don't orgasm through penetrative sex since Kama Sutra, and yet most men will go, "Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've heard about that." Women aren't having very many orgasms during partner sex. They always fake them. The way to solve the whole orgasm thing is- (bell rings)
- SBSteven Bartlett
How do we predict if someone's going to cheat on us?
- TCTracey Cox
Number one, being close doesn't actually protect you against infidelity. You'll become so close to your partner, they're your best friend, you just don't see them as a sexual partner anymore. If you understand how sex works, and if you can make sex good with your partner, affairs can be so preventable in so many different ways. Women get bored way quicker than men. Men don't get bored, because they get the orgasm as a reward. You need to give women interesting, erotic sex, and then they'll be interested. Otherwise, they're not gonna be interested.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've noticed a trend that amongst my friendship group, a startling amount of them are in sexless relationships.
- TCTracey Cox
Yep.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What are some of the most important solutions?
- TCTracey Cox
If you wanna have great sex, you need... (bell rings) That's what you have to do if you want a good sex life.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think that's phenomenal advice. I have some breaking news. And th- no, this is an emergency. I've spent the last two years writing a book, and I've written 33 laws for business, marketing, and life that I derived from all of these conversations I've had here. I traveled the world to write this book. I interviewed some of the most incredible people. I did six months of en- extensive research on scientific studies and principles to corroborate everything that I wrote into these 33 laws. And ladies and gentlemen, that book, called The Diary of a CEO: The 33 Laws for Business, Marketing, and Life, is now available for pre-order, and there are 5,000, only 5,000, signed copies, and it's first come first serve. The link is in the bio right now, so if you want that book, honestly it's the best book I've ever written. It's the book I always should've written. It's the book I also wish someone had written for me when I was starting out in my career. I'm really proud of it. I'm really, really proud of it. Really, really proud of it. And I can't wait for all of you to get to read it. It's out in August. I couldn't be more excited about this, as you can probably tell. I don't know what to sa- to say other than the words I've said to emphasize my excitement, 'cause I think it's important and I think it's really valuable. Um, link in the description. (instrumental music plays)
- 3:04 – 4:39
Who are you?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Tracey, I reached out to my team and I told my team that I wanted to have a conversation with the individual in the world that was best and most educated and most engaging on the subject matter of sex, because I've noticed a bunch of things in my personal life, in the lives of my friends and those around me, um, and I feel like people aren't having the right types of conversation about sex. I feel like we're avoiding it as a society, and I feel like sex is so intrinsically linked to performance and wellbeing and business, and all the things I usually talk about, so they found you, and that's why you're here. So, my first question is who are you and what do you do? What is your mission?
- TCTracey Cox
Right, I'm not a trained sex therapist, which is what everybody thinks I am. I'm a sex educator. Um, which is, which I think means that what I do is I look at all the research and look at all the- the sort of what's going on in the sex world in sort of an academic sense, and then I work out, okay, so that's all well and good, but what does this mean for you and I? Well, not necessarily you and I together, but people in the bedroom. So I bring it down to a sort of level that is more practical, that all my books are very much like, right, so here's what we now know about sex. Here's how this is gonna help you in bed. So I think my job is to sort of get the research and make it into something that, you know, the average person can understand and make it work for them. So I sort of, yeah, I'm a, I'm a sex educator is a better way to describe
- 4:39 – 8:31
Why do people have sexless relationships?
- TCTracey Cox
me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know, part of the reason I wanted to speak to you, as I said at the start of this conversation, is because I've noticed a trend. I've started to, like, (sniffs) smell it amongst my friendship group, where a startling amount of them are in sexless relationships.
- TCTracey Cox
Yep.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And they're not, they're not... You know, your book here says Great Sex Starts at 50. M- my friends are, the friends I'm talking about are in their 30s.
- TCTracey Cox
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I- I, and there's lots of things here, there's lots of thoughts, and I wanna figure out which ones are true. So I- I'm- I'm gonna say a bunch of things which are inherently naive. I know they are. So the first one is, like, why aren't they having sex, um, more often, and- and is that a, is that a problem? Are their partners to blame because they seem to wanna have sex and their partners don't? Um, is it wrong? Are those relationships therefore broken, and should they break up with their partners because they're not having that much sex? Um, so we'll go into all of that, but let's start with this- this que- the point you raised about how lust and love are not necessarily great bedfellows. Um, how does one, if they're in that situation where they really love their partner, they're really, really close to their partner-
- TCTracey Cox
Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... um, but they're feeling like the intimacy has run out the back door because of, you know, that sexual intimacy has run out the back door, how do we create that balance? You talk about something called otherness, which I thought was really compelling in- in your-
- TCTracey Cox
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... in your new book.
- TCTracey Cox
Yes. Such a, such a-... big question that is, because that's the question everybody wants to know, how do you keep desire going long term. Um, the otherness thing is all about... The close couples kind of become like Tweedledum and Tweedledee, they don't do anything separately. But you- you need to have separateness from your partner. And this is why during COVID no one had sex at all. In the beginning it was like, "Fantastic, we can have sex at 11:00 in the morning," and then it was like, "Oh, we can have sex any time we want." How unappealing is that? You know, the more available something is, the less we want it. But the... You need to separate from your partner. You need to be... You know, have your own identity and your identity with your partner. And that's the otherness that I talk about, is seeing your partner in the real world and seeing them when you're not with them. Like so many couples only ever see each other at home in their house. They never see each other out. And if you go out... I remember once, very early on into the relationship with my husband, Miles, he was walking through a restaurant and I'd arrived first and he hadn't seen me. And I was... He was walking through the restaurant and I saw a couple of women look over at him and I was like, "Shit," you know, he's really attractive. Well, I knew that, but he's, you know... And if I don't, you know... He's, he's out there all the time, you know, like people are gonna be attracted to him. So it sort of makes you lift your game a bit. So you need that. Where if you see your partner at home and you, you know, "Hi," "hi," you only ever see them come through the front door, they become too safe. And I think when people say, "Oh, my partner would never cheat on me," I think, how rude is that to think that your partner's never gonna cheat on you no matter what you do to them, no matter how horrible you are? That's terrible. That's like saying your partner, you know, is just doormat that you can do whatever. I like to think that, you know, my partner's not gonna cheat on me, but, you know, that makes me think that if I pledge monogamy, I pledge that I'm going to sexually satisfy my partner. I think you have an obligation to do that. And I'm gonna keep myself looking good because love is, you know, kind but it's not blind. And I'm going to do all sorts of things. I think it's a real insult. If somebody... If Miles said to me, "I know you'd never cheat on me," I'd be like, "Huh."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) .
- TCTracey Cox
I don't take that as a compliment. Would you?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, I think it's important to know that your partner will go and leave you if you drop the ball-
- TCTracey Cox
Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... in a variety of different ways. And I think that one of the interesting points you raised there is about like physical appearance or keeping yourself well or keeping yourself attractive. Do you think, and I've asked a few people this over time,
- 8:31 – 13:10
Do we have to stay in shape for our partners?
- SBSteven Bartlett
do you think we have an obligation to stay in shape, attractive, whatever it might be for our partners?
- TCTracey Cox
Yes. Absolutely. I don't mean like you have to have facelifts or-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- TCTracey Cox
... you know, anything like that. But you, you should keep yourself as attractive as you can, each of you. And I think, you know... (sighs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's not just a physical thing, I have to say.
- TCTracey Cox
No. No. It's an everything.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's a... It can be an intellectual thing.
- TCTracey Cox
Yes. Exactly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- TCTracey Cox
It's an intellectual thing as well. Because desire goes... And especially, you know, the, you know, grumpy old man, grumpy old woman thing. When people age, I think that they become very set in their ways and, you know, become quite... You know, you don't wanna be the bitter and twisted person. You could look like, you know, a Greek god, and if you're bitter and twisted, your partner (laughs) still not gonna want to sleep with you. So yes, I do think we owe it to each other to say... you know, to look as good as you can and to be as positive as you can. There is nothing less sexy than being with somebody who's miserable all the time, who's a negative person.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's so interesting that I f-... That some of the most attractive things I find in my partner are when I look over and see her doing her work and her thing.
- TCTracey Cox
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So I actually... It's funny, I... She, she doesn't actually know this, but, uh, but last night I came home from work very, very late because I was... I was out, I did some talks at the... And I came home and I got in through the door and I... my partner was sat at the kitchen table, it was about 11:00 PM at night, designing her new studio on her laptop with her headphones on. And I just found that really... I took a photo.
- TCTracey Cox
(laughs) .
- SBSteven Bartlett
And it's on my phone. And I took a photo because I'm like, I'm proud of her in one sense, but it was really lovely that when-
- TCTracey Cox
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... I walked through the door, it wasn't about me-
- TCTracey Cox
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... she was busy doing her own thing.
- TCTracey Cox
Absorbed in her own stuff. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. And I kind of like walked past... And I could almost see how some people might find, find that threatening. I like, "W- hey babe," give her a kiss like on the... She kind of like (smacks lips) kisses me back but then goes back to the laptop.
- TCTracey Cox
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I'm like, "This is nice." And I went, I went over and I sat on the sofa on my own and just watched Manchester United. But there was something really attractive about it.
- TCTracey Cox
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know?
- TCTracey Cox
Of course there is. I mean, watching somebody at work doing what they love is, is the moment when, yeah, that you're like, "Wow, this person's amazing." I mean, I would hate to be a person who, you know, the partner's at home waiting for you-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- TCTracey Cox
... and, "Where are you?" And it's all about, "So what have you done?" "Nothing much. How was your day?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- TCTracey Cox
That's not... It's not healthy for a relationship. That puts it too much on one person. If you want to have great sex, you need to have an interesting life. You need to be doing interesting things. You're not gonna be having great sex if you're boring and you do the same thing every single day because you just end up doing the same boring sex. You need stimulation all the time.
- 13:10 – 21:08
How do we talk about sex?
- TCTracey Cox
- SBSteven Bartlett
There are 80% of women listening now that can relate.
- TCTracey Cox
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So ... And it's funny 'cause I was speaking to a friend of mine. I told him that I was gonna have this conversation with you, and I said, "What would you like me to s- to say?" And they ... This was the question they had and it's linked to what you just said. They said-
- TCTracey Cox
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... "I'm in a relationship where my partner is having, um, the same sex over and over again. He's coming very quickly during sex and I don't know how to approach the conversation with him about, like, this isn't working for me, um, without, like, embarrassing him," or whatever it might be. What advice would you give to that person?
- TCTracey Cox
Gosh, talking about sex is just the thing. I mean, do you talk about sex with your-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yes.
- TCTracey Cox
... girlfriend? How long have you been together?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Four years now.
- TCTracey Cox
Oh, well done.
- SBSteven Bartlett
We're just very open with things.
- TCTracey Cox
Yeah. Well done. That's really good, because most people talk a lot about sex in the beginning when it's all going well, like, "Aren't we amazing? Aw, isn't that great?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- TCTracey Cox
All that sort of stuff. The minute there's problems, they tail off. And every sex problem can be solved if you talk about it. If you don't talk about sex, the tiniest sex problem can ruin your whole sex life. And the reason people don't talk about sex is that they worry, exactly what you just said, that they're gonna hurt their partner. That they're going to upset them. Well, you just be really tactful about it. And I always talk about the, the compliment sandwich. So say you wanna say she wants him to be what? Give her more foreplay, something like that?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, just ... He's, he's c- He's, uh, reaching orgasm too quickly and then she's obviously not enjoying it because, uh, he's over and she's still not, you know-
- TCTracey Cox
Ooh.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... had her orgasm.
- TCTracey Cox
No. Well, the mantra for that is she comes first, always. The way to solve the whole orgasm thing in several ways, one of, one of the ways, is to have, you know ... Give her her orgasms through oral sex, fingers, a vibrator, and then you go onto intercourse which is when he gets his orgasm. So that's a very ... I mean, it's what a lot of, um, couples do, a lot of straight couples do. You'll notice actually when I talk about sex or I talk about straight couples, the reason why is that gay couples (laughs) have a lot better time of it, because they've got the same issues going on. So it sorta helps if you're gay, in lots of ways. Um, but I would say don't worry so much about, er- If you say to ... If she said to her partner, "Look, I really love our sex. I love our sex and I particularly like it when you do X, but you know when you used to do Y, give me more foreplay, give me oral sex, I really, really loved that. Can we do more of that?" So you're not saying actually you, you're l- not lasting long enough. And not lasting long enough is not gonna be an issue with most women because they don't have their orgasms through intercourse anyway. So I think that men need to calm down about that. They feel like they have to go on forever and ever and ever and it's like, well, if she's not gonna orgasm that way anyway, she's gonna feel like she has to, and then you get the faking it and all that sort of stuff comes into it. But talking about sex is such a huge issue for people. And the funny thing about talking about sex is that once you've done it once it's e- it's the first conversation especially ... You know, I deal with couples who haven't talked about sex for 30 years, and that first conversation is excruciating, you know. You're sort of like, "Oh my god, this is awful. I just want the, you know, Earth to moot, like open and get rid of me." But once you move past that, that initial awkwardness, which seriously lasts, like, three minutes, then all of a sudden it, this relief. The amount of couples who say, "Oh my god. Like, I can say actually I don't really like it when you do that. Can you do this?" And, like, you know, "Does it worry you that, you know, my erection isn't as hard as it was when I was young and ..." And you get reassurance and then they're falling over themselves. You will never, ever, ever regret trying to talk about sex with your partner. It is the number one thing you can do for your relationship. So she should think about what she wants, be very specific. Men particularly like ... They respond best to very specific instructions. So instead of saying, "Look, this sex isn't working for me because, you know, you, you're climaxing too fast and then all of a sudden it's over and I'm just left high and dry," if you say, "This is my idea of the perfect sex session. Can you just, like ... Let's just p- take turns, you know. We each have, we each design our own perfect sex session. You know, I ... Could you start with kissing? You could move on to kissing my neck. I really like it if you play with my breasts and then I love oral sex but could you do it for a bit longer?" Very specific. Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And people are like, "Well, that's like telling ... You know, saying you love ... 'Can you say you love me?' And then they say, 'I love you' back." But no, giving instruction in sex is really ... Most people are really grateful for it, and it might feel a bit awkward the session after that where he's thinking, "Oh my god, I'm just doing exactly what she says. Isn't this embarrassing?" And then all of a sudden you forget about it, and then the next session and the next session is, like, flowing and great.
- TCTracey Cox
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay, so a couple of counterpoints here, just from personal experience. One of the things I've always been a bit conscious of, or no, one of the things that I think has irked me a little bit is-... a- and this goes back to what you said about lust, this kind of spontaneity and the- the, uh, the riskiness of it, is I don't want rules, you know? Like, I don't want-
- TCTracey Cox
Rules.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I don't wanna be- I don't wanna be in- instructed during sex or- or- or- or even worse, "I don't like that. Do it like this. Oh, no." It kinda kills the, like ... I think m- sometimes you can become a little bit like a boy being told off by his mum. (laughs)
- TCTracey Cox
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know what I mean?
- TCTracey Cox
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I- I ... And that can- then that can have an impact on one's erec- uh, erection, or erection and their- their, like, mindset. F- I think sometimes for guys, so much of sex is flowing, feeling like you can flow.
- TCTracey Cox
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And sometimes ... If you get f- like, if you've got critical feedback during sex-
- 21:08 – 22:38
What do I do if my partner does’t want to try new things?
- TCTracey Cox
afraid.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What if you wanna do something and your partner doesn't wanna do it?
- TCTracey Cox
Generally, a request for something new, a request for anything is just a request for variety. So say your partner says, "I wanna try having sex outside," and you really don't want to have sex outside, the correct answer to that is, "Look, that's really not my thing, but, you know, why don't we try X?" Most people, if they wanna try something new, if you give them s- you know, "I'm not open to that, but I am open to something else," then they'll be fine about it. But I mean, where you get into problems with somebody wanting to try something and the par- other partner not wanting to try is if it's something a bit fetish.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- TCTracey Cox
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah.
- TCTracey Cox
And that's when you get ... Did you ever watch, um, Billions? You know, where they ... She- she had the fetish of, you know, of being whipped and wanting to be the submissive and- and he just let her go off and be satisfied by, um, a sex worker. That's one option, by the way, if your partner (laughs) has a fetish, is to just go, "Okay, I accept that you've got this fetish and it's not for me, so if you- if it's really so much part of your makeup that you can't live without it, then go off with a sex worker and satisfy it." That's the extreme version. But most of the time, I think ... Or you can meet halfway. Like say, um, say your partner ... Say you wanna have a threesome with two women. Well, then the meeting halfway might be that you have phone sex with a sex worker. Maybe you role-play it. Maybe you go to a lap dancing club and she gets a lap dance by someone. There i- there's always some kind of compromise in there where you can capture a sense of what the other person wants.
- 22:38 – 34:09
What do we do in sexless relationships?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay, so let's go back up to this- this- this initial question. My friends, they're in their 30s, they're-
- TCTracey Cox
Sexless.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... sexless relationships. They are increasingly frustrated about it, it seems.
- TCTracey Cox
Hm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, it's funny. I've got like ... You know, I've got this collection of f- my best friends, we're- we're very talkative and communicative around our sex lives and stuff. And I just noticed that in various ways, they're in situations where they're n- they don't feel like they're getting enough sex from their partner and they see it as a critical problem, which wou- which might result in them, for example, being, um ... cheating or, um, ending the relationship. Even in my own, um, sort of sexual experience, what got me really engaged with this subject matter was I was in a relationship where the po- my partner turned around to me one day after six months and said, like, "I don't like having sex." And as a young man-
- TCTracey Cox
With you-
- SBSteven Bartlett
With me.
- TCTracey Cox
... or just "I don't like having sex"?
- SBSteven Bartlett
With me.
- TCTracey Cox
Oh. Great.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And as he-
- TCTracey Cox
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
As ... Yeah. A- as a young man, I- I- I think with, you know, with an ego, I thought, "Well, what does that mean? That's super emasculating. Does that mean that I'm not hitting it right or, like-"
- TCTracey Cox
Hm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
"... do I ... Maybe it's her proper-" You know, whatever. And so I went on that journey with-
- TCTracey Cox
What did she mean?
- SBSteven Bartlett
So it's interesting because we separated.
- TCTracey Cox
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
My reaction was very, like ... And also, I turned to her and said, like, "Why?" And she said, uh, the next sentence was, "I'm not comfortable talking about that with you."
- TCTracey Cox
Oh.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, so for me, that was like the door had closed.
- TCTracey Cox
Of course it do- 'cause where do you go with her?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yes, well exactly.
- TCTracey Cox
Yeah. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So I broke up with her.
- TCTracey Cox
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And, um-... year passes. We both go to different places. We both kind of, you know, figure ourselves out a little bit. And on her journey, she really got to understand that at the heart of her relationship with sex was this fear that had derived from previous relationships where the partner was very forceful, you know, um, apparent cheating, all of those things that we-
- TCTracey Cox
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... kind of discussed earlier. So it wasn't that she necessarily didn't like having sex. There was a lot of psychological work to be done on-
- TCTracey Cox
Right.
- 34:09 – 41:44
Is porn damaging?
- SBSteven Bartlett
be allowed to simmer.
- TCTracey Cox
That's exactly right. And of course what lots of people do in that scenario is they just turn to porn.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- TCTracey Cox
And they just satisfy themselves with porn, but that's not ideal, obviously.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why?
- TCTracey Cox
But you ... Well, because it's- it's pretty soulless sex, isn't it? Just watching porn and masturbating. And I think, you know, there's- it's really funny about porn actually, because I used to have a great relationship with porn. I used to say to people all the time, like, "Porn is your friend. Watch it with your partner. It's great for, you know, if you've got a high sex drive and your partner doesn't, it- it, you know, you can satisfy yourself, it- it keeps your imagination, you know, piqued. You, you know, can satisfy that sense of newness by watching porn." And now porn's moved into a really ugly stage with, you know, there's such a- a concentration on aggressive acts like spitting, choking. Choking is terrible. Um, slapping across the face. It's become very much like that, and young men are growing up to think that this is what a normal sex session is like, this is normal real-life sex. It is not. Porn is nothing like real-life sex. And then women look at it and go, "Gosh, right, okay, that's obviously what's expected of me, this is what I have to do." And it's- it's moving into a very nasty direction.
- SBSteven Bartlett
They say unmet expectations equal unhappiness, so by setting expectations up here as like-
- TCTracey Cox
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... "We're gonna do this for an hour and I'm gonna tie you up and spit on you and choke you and you're gonna make this sound and you're gonna-
- TCTracey Cox
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... scream and you're gonna tell me I'm this and you're gonna say that I'm your fa- whatever-" (laughs)
- TCTracey Cox
Yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
"... perverse thing it might be," then for those unmet expectations equals unhappiness in the bedroom. You go, "Well, you know, I'm gonna-
- TCTracey Cox
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... have to go looking for something else," and-
- TCTracey Cox
Exactly, and that's what young men do, 'cause they think that's what sex can- gonna be about. It's not. So then they keep looking for the girls who will give them that, and then girls very quickly figure out, "Okay, if I wanna be liked, I have to do that." I've just done a- done a big thing on choking, and um, and I interviewed all these young girls and it was- it was horrifying. It was ... They- they'd been, I mean, between 58% of college students between the age of, you know, like ...... had all been choked. I think 30% of them had been asked. And I'm not talking about, you know, symbolic choking of just putting a hand on the throat, which even that freaks me out. But I'm talking about, you know, cutting off wind supply. There was one girl who told me, she was 21, she'd gone out with this guy, he seemed really nice. He started choking her. She said, "No." She passed out. She woke up next to this guy who was asleep. He then said to... And then she got herself out of there and was like, "Oh my god," you know, terrified. He texted her the next day and said, "Oh my god, babe, the sex was awesome. Let's meet up again." And she was, she was just like, "How could you possibly think that that was good?" And that worries me a lot. I think that, that... I mean, uh, sex, I think, is moving in a great way in lots of ways, particularly for young women, except for things like that. I think that is terrible. So, no, you don't want to be satisfying yourself with porn. But you have to have the conversation if sex is now out of your marriage. You cannot just let it go and be the elephant in the room because exactly what you said is gonna happen. You're gonna leave or you're gonna cheat. So you sit down with your partner and you say, "Listen, we really need to have a discussion about this. I love you desperately. Um, but I miss our sex. I really... We used to have lovely sex. I love having sex with you. You're really desirable. It's, it's, you know... And I... Can we talk about why this isn't happening anymore? Are you having the sort of, you know... Is it that the sex that we're having isn't doing it for you? What can I do to make you, you know, want to have sex more often with me? Because I would really love to have sex with you more often. Can we have a discussion about this?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay, I've got friends that have tried that.
- TCTracey Cox
And what happened?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, the partner doesn't necessarily know. It's a si- similar situation to what I f- the one in... The situation I described that I was in where my partner turned around and said something, because th- they might not have the information themselves. They go, "Well, I just don't like having it."
- TCTracey Cox
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And they might not know that the, you know, the responsive s- sex language that you talked about.
- TCTracey Cox
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And they might not know what's going on with-
- TCTracey Cox
Oh, I see. The partner might not know why she doesn't want to have sex.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why she does- why she or he doesn't like having sex.
- TCTracey Cox
Um, I think-
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then you kind of hit a wall, don't you?
- TCTracey Cox
Well, that's when you educate yourself. That's when you give, read a few of my books-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Yeah, yeah.
- TCTracey Cox
... to give you a bit of education. But I mean, okay, so the partner who wants sex is generally more driven, so maybe they could sexually edu- educate themselves and say, "You know, I've been reading up about this. Perhaps it might be because of this. Can we try having sex this way?" But it's all about broaching the topic. And then, I mean, depending on the reaction, I mean, I know I've, you know, encouraged some people to have this talk, and then they've got an answer which is just startling. Well, they'll say, "I don't want to have sex anymore. I'm not interested in solving this." So that's it. So you just have to put up with it. And if that-
- 41:44 – 45:55
AI sex robots
- TCTracey Cox
- SBSteven Bartlett
We're now in an AI world as well.
- TCTracey Cox
Yes, terrifying. Terrifying.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Which is very interesting-
- TCTracey Cox
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... because you're now... You know, we've heard about sex dolls and stuff like that over the years-
- TCTracey Cox
Yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But a sex doll that can speak to you with such depth and reason and apparent emotional, uh, nuance and understanding is really, really scary.
- TCTracey Cox
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You, you can think... I was thinking about (laughs) ... Thinking about this. Thinking about all the different ways that AI is gonna disrupt us as, like, a, uh, the social fabric of society. And one of the really clear ways that was... You can now have a sex doll in your house that speaks to you, that comforts you, that understands your problems, understands what you're going through and can give you unbelievable advice, will never shout at you, will never criticize you, and will please you in a, in a personalized way. It will learn how to please you.... you know-
- TCTracey Cox
Sounds great, doesn't it? (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and fantastic. (laughs)
- TCTracey Cox
Let's just swap our partners for that purpose. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. No, but that is... We're right there. We're on the-
- TCTracey Cox
I know.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... we're on the doorstep of that world, and-
- TCTracey Cox
And do you know what, though? Think about all the lonely people. Think about all the lonely people that can now have a companion. I think-
- SBSteven Bartlett
But is it companionship?
- TCTracey Cox
Think about it like that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is it real connection?
- TCTracey Cox
Yes, of course it is. If you're somebody who can't find a companion in real life or you're lonely, I mean, it's better than a dog, isn't it? I mean, it's... I- I- I mean, I think that's got some really nice applications to it, but it's also got some dire applications to it because then, you know, it ultimately we'll end up with a- with n- no population, won't we? 'Cause no one will be having sex-
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's what I'm saying.
- TCTracey Cox
... with a real person. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So I thi- I think you think... You- you can see the short-term, "Oh, well, you know, Dave's gonna be sl- slightly more less lonely potentially."
- TCTracey Cox
Yeah. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right? But-
- TCTracey Cox
Hm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... if we, if we go up that exponential curve of improvement, we get to a point where this thing is walking, it's talking, it is making y- making your breakfast, your dinner, your whatever, then it's satisfying you on demand-
- TCTracey Cox
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and then you look over at a human and you go, "Ugh." You know?
- 45:55 – 49:01
Can we turn the sex recession around?
- TCTracey Cox
- SBSteven Bartlett
I mean, we're kind of going that way already with porn and y- we talked about this sort of macro decline in sex.
- TCTracey Cox
(clears throat)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Are you hopeful that we can turn that around?
- TCTracey Cox
Um, yes, and I-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- TCTracey Cox
... have great help- hope with the young generation of women. I think this is the first generation of women who really have probably the least sexual hangups that we've ever had. And (clears throat) I think that... I mean, young women are much more adventurous than young men. It's sort of going in a weird direction, I think, that way. And all the young women that I'm in contact with, I'm talking about young women in their 20s, early 30s, we know that young women are more bi-curious than men. We know that young women are more interested in threesomes with two women than men are. We know that young women are more interested in going to a sex club than men are. We know that young women are more interested in polyamory and they- they don't want several love relationships. They want the lovely relationship and then they want to be able to have sex with men on the side. It's not men thinking like this. This is women thinking like this. And I think that it's gonna make for more interesting relationships. And because the whole... Women are overturning everything. Like, the motivation for affairs now has completely reversed. So men used to have affairs for sex. Now most men, if they're in a good relationship, will satisfy that with porn, right? Most men. Um, now men have affairs for love and affection. Women have affairs... They used to have affairs for love that they weren't getting from their partner. Now they have affairs for erotic sex, sex where they're not looking after their partner. They can be selfish. They don't have to care about whether they hurt his feelings or say, "Don't do it that way." They're not gonna care about whether Steven doesn't like it if he's being instructed, it's like, "Do that. Do this." They want that sort of sex, right? And that's why they're having affairs. So I feel like my hope is that women are gonna take the charge and go forward and we are gonna end up with sex that's more interesting, sex that's less doing everything to please a man, more equal. You know, "This is what I need. This is what I want. This is what you need. This is what you want." Let's work out the best way to do that together. Not where... You know, because so many women still now, that's the thing that does- does disappoint me, is still have sex to please men, still pretend to have orgasms during penetrative sex because society's brainwashed. We have known that women don't orgasm basically through penetrative sex since Kama Sutra, which was written in the third to fifth century. And yet most men will go, "Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've heard about that."... I've read about them. It hasn't happened to me, I've just been really lucky.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- TCTracey Cox
All my girlfriends, you know. I mean, it's just like they're faking. They're faking because the girl before faked, and now they feel like they have to fake, and, you know, every depiction of sex is that, you know, everybody has this mutual orgasm, simultaneous orgasm together, and that's just how sex is. Well, it's not like that. It's, uh, it's totally not like that at all.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Speaking
- 49:01 – 1:02:27
How to boost body self-esteem
- SBSteven Bartlett
of young women, in, in your book Great Sex Starts at 50-
- TCTracey Cox
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... one of the things you talk about is the issue of sort of sexual confidence and sexual self-esteem.
- TCTracey Cox
(clears throat)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, you talk about that in the opening chapter of the book. And I found it really compelling, r- re- really interesting that women view themselves differently when they look in the mirror, which c- has a libido impact.
- TCTracey Cox
Body image is terrible. They've just done a study which looked at two decade- 20 years of studies, so they did a study on all the studies on body image, and it turns out that it impacts every single area of sex, regularity of sex, enjoyment of sex, arousal, desire, orgasm. And it makes sense that if you don't like your body, you're not gonna want anyone to look at it or touch it. It is the biggest problem with women today and their sex lives is that often, you know, this is the other thing with your friends, you know, have they just had babies? Has their body changed? You know, are they not feeling so desirable? You know, desire, I think feeling desired by your partner is much more important to women than, you know, anything else. If your partner looks at you and they're, you know, like, "God, you're so hot. You're so sexy," that is the biggest turn-on of all. And if you're feeling not great about yourself and your mindset is so much down on yourself that you think, "I don't even... How could he possibly look at me and think that I'm attractive?" then you'll never feel that... Y- your partner could fancy you to death, but you're never gonna feel it because your brain's just gone, "Nope, I am not sexually attractive anymore." So, that is a real problem. It's a real problem. And do you know what the solution is for that? It's not to go off and get a facelift, or get your hair done, or lose weight, or go the gym more. Though, actually going to the gym more is one. Exercise is really good for your sex drive and for your self-esteem. But the other thing is that cures body image is, um, is actually to have sex more. If you have sex more often and your partner enjoys it, your brain goes on a subconscious level, "Well, you know what? It can't be that bad because he's having sex with me or she's having sex with me, whoever's having sex with you, they're enjoying it." And so you, it start, your brain starts to make sense of it all and go, "Okay, right. You know, this is... I'm obviously not as undesirable as I think." And it starts to sort of become better and more able to be dealt with. So, the more you have sex, the better, because it gives you confidence. And sexually confident women, women who think they're good in bed, so increase your skills as well. If you're worried that you're not a great lover, read up on it, buy some of the books, go online, look up technique. You know, 'cause technique is very important. And the better lover you think you are, the less you worry about what you look like in bed. We all know that. Sexually confident women win all the time. And sexually confident women put on weight the same way other people do as they get on in life, et cetera, et cetera. You know, their bodies are different after pregnancy, but they don't focus on that. They're like, "Hey, I'm a brilliant lover. Who cares?" You know, he's not looking at that. He's just thinking how fantastic I am. So, it's more about increase your confidence as a lover, exercise more, and, I mean, than the obvious, take yourself off social media, stop comparing yourself to other people, all that sort of stuff. But it's, it's difficult. It's very difficult. And I think men suffer from this as well.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's so un- unbelievably true, especially, um, especially the part that it also relates to men, because I've got multiple accounts from female friends of mine that are in a heterosexual relationship that have told me their partner won't have sex with them with his top off or with the lights on. Um, and also the point there about how you solve that body confidence issue, that confidence comes from the evidence you get from doing the thing.
- TCTracey Cox
Yeah. And also, if you are worried about your body, when you're having sex, close your eyes. Like, close your eyes and think about what you're feeling. It's about what, what you're feeling, not, like, how you're looking, because if it's stressing you out and you're looking and thinking, "Oh, my God. He's looking at my thighs. He's looking at this," just close your eyes and go into yourself. Or become more active. That's the other way to overcome body issues is if you're really active in bed, and you're, like, looking at your partner, and you're talking dirty, and you're making lots of eye contact that way, anything to sort of take yourself out of yourself is good. You either go into yourself and focus on what you're feeling rather than what you're looking like, or you sort of become way more active. That also works.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Three things that boost sexual self-esteem easily in your book. Initiate sex to feel more powerful.
- TCTracey Cox
Yes, absolutely. Initiation is such a big thing on so many levels. And if you don't ever initiate sex with your partner, you're essentially saying, "I don't actually enjoy having sex with you. I'm only having sex with you because you've asked me to have sex with you." And people argue about that. It's like, "Well, his sex drive's way bigger or, you know, higher, and lots of stuff." It doesn't matter. You really need to have a thing where, you know, if, if your partner's got a much bigger sex drive than you, you need to say to them, "Look, okay, it's really sexy being the person who's the sexy one in the relationship. That's why... You know, it's great. It's nice to be that person, but I wanna be the sexy one in the relationship. So, hold off on initiating for a while and give me a chance to initiate, so that I can feel more powerful." And it's, it's such a great dynamic that, that power dynamic in, in, you know, relationships is really important that you have to be sometimes the dominant person, you have to be the submissive person. And if you swap around, it makes for a much more interesting sex life. But if you don't initiate sex, I mean, it's a real cop-out to never initiate sex. I really do think so. And when women do it who don't often initiate sex, what often happens is that they'll be so subtle.... that the man misses the point completely. It's like, "Well, I gave him this really sexy kiss," and it was like, "Yeah? And?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- TCTracey Cox
"Yeah, anything else?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- TCTracey Cox
"Anything else that went with that? And, and he didn't even, you know, and now I'm not gonna do that again." It's like, oh for God's sake, just be really obvious about it. Be really obvious about it. And going back to initiation, just be aware that how you initiate sex will influence whether or not your partner says yes. So, if you initiate sex the wrong way, your partner might say no to sex because you've just approached it all the wrong way. Whereas if you approach your partner that you know has got a responsive sex drive by talking, cuddling, connecting, whatever she wants, could be, you know, she might want you to re- um, initiate it, sex like that. But, you know, and getting her in the mood the way she wants to be in the mood, not the way you would like her to get in the mood, but the way she wants to be in the mood, she'll probably say yes to sex. So, a lot of people saying no to sex isn't that they don't want sex, they're just being approached the wrong way and they're not being warmed up the right way. So, if you can solve those two basic things, it can s- change everything.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It feels like there's something really fu- fundamental here, that we c- we assume sex will take care of itself.
- TCTracey Cox
It never... Oh, my God. Writing all those sex books, when I go to a dinner party, people either wanna sit next to me or they go as far away from me as they possibly can because they're terrified. And s- the people who say to me, "Oh, God, well, I don't need a sex book," I'm like, "Yes, you do. You're the person that needs a sex book." I've written 17 of them and I'm still learning about sex. There is so much to learn about sex. How can you think you possibly know everything about sex without ever educating yourself?
- SBSteven Bartlett
And it's changing.
- TCTracey Cox
Of course it is. But people who think that they're born great lovers, they don't, you know... I think the female response system is complicated. Who knew what a clitoris was back in the day, you know? Like, they're difficult to stimu- well, actually, they're not that difficult. You just give her the vibrator and then they're fine. But, um, you know, it's not easy being a great lover. And can I just say one more thing about orgasms, is we worry too much about orgasms and how we get them. There is no right way to have an orgasm 'cause everyone thinks the right way to have an orgasm is during intercourse with your partner, and preferably them climaxing at the same time. Simultaneous orgasms hardly ever happen, for a start. They're always faked. So, the easiest way to give a woman an orgasm, I mean, great women are, can be very easily orgasmic if you use the right finger technique, if you give her the right oral sex technique, but the thing that is most expert at stimulating the clitoris is vibration. Most women can have an orgasm within three minutes with a vibrator. So, we have this big orgasm gap problem where men are having lots of orgasms during partner sex, women aren't having very many orgasms during partner sex because they don't understand each other very well, because sometimes people just, just can't relax with another person there, right? So, the solution is to put your hand in the bedside drawer and bring out a vibrator, and she would have an orgasm every single time the same way you have an orgasm every single time. Why don't we all just do this? It's the easiest solution in the world, but we don't. Young men are better at it. They'll often say, or you know, and she'll say... If women are honest and they'll say, "Look, you know, that was fantastic but I kinda missed the moment a bit," which you can as a woman. "Can I just use my vibrator or can you use the vibrator on me?" Sorted. But we have this, like, that's a cheating orgasm, that one.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, or that it takes something away from what sex is supposed to be.
- TCTracey Cox
The couple-ness, or... Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- TCTracey Cox
But it's a solution. I'm not saying have all your orgasms like that, but just maybe now and then have the vibrator in the bed, and why is it inferior if you can have all that intimacy, if you've had the oral sex, you've had the intercourse, you've thoroughly enjoyed it but it just hasn't given you that tip-over?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm. And what I mean by y- that question about this fundamental belief that kinda sex is supposed to take care of itself, and I think that's why we don't talk about it enough, we don't research about it enough, we don't, um, try put, invest in making it new and exciting and different and all the things you've said-
- TCTracey Cox
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... is because we just, just sh- 'cause at the start it kind of takes care of itself, doesn't it?
- TCTracey Cox
Course it does, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
First couple of months, and then-
- TCTracey Cox
All the sex hormones are there.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- TCTracey Cox
Driving us, driving us, without even us having to think about it.
- 1:02:27 – 1:08:16
Are sexless relationships unhappy?
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've talked in this conversation as if sexless relationships are unhappy relationships.
- TCTracey Cox
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But that is not true, is it?
- TCTracey Cox
No, it's not true. You can often have ... I mean, people do instantly think if they're not having sex, "Oh my god, you know, divorce is coming soon." No. I mean, you can get ... Sex isn't the be all and end all for everybody. Lots of people have very low sexual libidos. If you've got two people who have low sex drives, they have a lot of sex at the beginning, or maybe not even that much, and then all of a sudden it fades off, they're perfectly happy. Some people are happy having, you know, one great session every six months. That's enough for them, it keeps them perfectly satisfied, so long as both of you are like that. But what doesn't work is if one of you is highly sex-driven. In the beginning, you know, we all worry about compatibility. Please, mesh- ... You know, match up with somebody who has the same sex drive as you. And I know it's artificially inflated at the beginning, but don't commit to anything (laughs) until you're six months in, eight months in, a year in. Don't marry anyone under that, because you don't know what their sex drive is. Wait until after a year and then you see. And it's very difficult if you've got a massively high sex drive and your other one doesn't. But you can be perfectly happy in sexless relationships, so long as both of you are happy with that. And also, you know, they used to define a sexless relationship as couples who had sex 10 times a year. Now, plenty of couples, especially couples over 50, only have sex 10 times a year, and they were, like, indignant to be described as sexless. So, now they've changed it to a sexless relationship is one where sex hasn't happened in a year, and that's a low sex relationship to be 10 times a year. But it's all dependent on where you're at in life. Like, if you, if you've just had babies and they're under two, you're not gonna be having a lot of sex. If you're 18, you've just got together, you're gonna be having an awful lot of sex. You know, if you're part ... If you've just gone through menopause or perimenopause and everything's gone to hell, you're not gonna be having sex at that period of time. So, you can't ... There is no one-size-fits-all thing. So, find your normal, is what I would say, and if your normal is no sex, so long as you have a conversation about it, that's fine. But you ... What you cannot do is stop sex and not talk about it. That is really, really dangerous. You've gotta have some kind of discussion, even if that's getting into bed one night and one of you says, "We don't have sex much anymore. Do you- does it bother you?" "No, it doesn't really bother me." "Good." Even if it's that. But you do need ... And you need to have lots of affection, lots of ... You need to make up for that s- ... Don't stop touching physically, because when sex stops, people often stop touching each other because they're worried that that's gonna lead to sex and that's gonna be awkward. So, keep up the affec- ... That's why you've gotta have the chat. If you don't have the chat, affection stops. And if affection and sex stops, then you are in trouble.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- TCTracey Cox
If you've got lots of affection, you're okay, so long as both of you are happy.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Interesting.
- TCTracey Cox
But you're not gonna be happy if one person doesn't want sex to stop and the other one does. That doesn't make for a happy relationship at all.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And in that situation, is it right to then just leave?
- TCTracey Cox
No, you have the chat.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And the chat is w- ... But, but they-
- TCTracey Cox
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... say in the chat, "No, I want more sex." You say, "I don't want as- more sex." Then what do you do?
- TCTracey Cox
Well, then you look at exactly ... You sort of go through a process. So, you have the chat. You talk about ... You make sure the sex that's on offer is good sex for the person who doesn't want it. You look at anything around it, like, you know, have they got any childhood issues that need dealing with? What are the ... You know, why don't- ... Do they not want to want? If they don't want to want, then you need to look at what happened, you know, sexual trauma. There's ... I mean, if the person that doesn't wanna have sex with you is willing to look at ways to become more sexual, stay. Of course, stay. You know, there's always hope. Yes, there's tons of stuff you can do. You know, you can, you can take- strip sex right back to basics where you don't have penetrative sex for a year. You might do the Sensate Focus program, which is all about touching each other without sexual intent, and it might be that you have to go ... Almost like you've got to learn how to have sex all over again. If your partner's willing to try, anything's possible. Definitely don't walk out. But if your partner says, "I don't wanna have sex with you and I've no interest in having sex. I've got no interest in trying to, you know, bring- get back my desire," and you're not allowed to have sex either, you're not allowed to seek it anywhere else or, you know, apart from running off to the office and masturbating to porn, well, what choice have you got? I mean, some people stay. Some people stay in that scenario because the love is very strong and they've got kids or whatever. But I think that's an incredibly selfish thing to say to a partner.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Chapter Nine of your book, it says that 33% of, um-... couples said that they rarely or never have had sex, and one-quarter of those rated themselves as being extremely happy.
- TCTracey Cox
That's right. So something like 75% of people who are denied sex nearly all of the time stay if the love is strong, so-
- SBSteven Bartlett
People choose love over sex?
- TCTracey Cox
Well, and of course they do, because how often are you having sex? Even if you're having sex a lot, even if you're having sex once a day, twice a day, it's still only really for half an hour each time, so, you know, in the proportion of the time you spend together, you're... The love bit's more important than the sex bit. It definitely is. Unless the sex bit is really bad, and then it tends to poison-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- TCTracey Cox
... the rest of the relationship.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you do any sort of therapy for couples? Do, do couples ever come to you?
- TCTracey Cox
No, not face-to-face, no.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And, de- And, and do individuals come to you for advice in a professional context to get-
- TCTracey Cox
No, no.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... good therapy or anything?
- TCTracey Cox
I do friends and, and friends of friends and stuff like that. I don't because I lack the skills to disassociate. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, okay.
- TCTracey Cox
This is why I never became a therapist, because I'm not very good at... There are ways to solve a problem where you can stand outside the problem, or you stand right in the middle of it all and take it all on, and I'm the stand-in-the-middle person. And I, and I wouldn't ever be able to... I would have no boundaries. I, they'd be calling me day and night, so no, I can't do that.
- 1:08:16 – 1:10:42
The most common question you get asked
- TCTracey Cox
- SBSteven Bartlett
What are the most common questions that people ask you about sex? And I'd like the ones that we don't talk about enough. So, you know, I don't know whether it's erectile dysfunction or whether it's like-
- TCTracey Cox
Oh my God, erectile dysfunction for men is... Women don't appreciate how having not being able to get an erection or, you know, is, it's the biggest psychological catastrophe-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- TCTracey Cox
... men experience.
- SBSteven Bartlett
We can't fake it.
- TCTracey Cox
No, no.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- TCTracey Cox
Penis envy, who wants a penis?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- TCTracey Cox
I certainly don't want a penis. It's all out there to see. We can fake everything.
Episode duration: 1:40:59
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Transcript of episode 2Ait0WaCNCw
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