The More Successful You Are The Longer You'll Live! Will Storr

Will Storr 0:00 You shouldn't raise your children to believe that they can be Beyoncé, because the chances are they can't. (bell ringing)

Steven Bartlett 0:04 Will Storr is an award-winning author of six critically acclaimed books. His ideas are disruptive, challenging, and life-changing. And some of them will make you feel incredibly uncomfortable.

Will Storr 0:15 People don't like to talk about this stuff. The 99% of self-help books never mention genes. They, they want to promote the idea of, "Well, I can be whoever I want to be," but a huge amount of who we are is who we were born as. That myth of you have full control over yourself as a human being, that's the problem. It's not about embracing your flaws, it's about accepting your flaws. Our lives are full of status pursuit. The more status that you earn, the better everything else gets. But that was true 10,000 years ago, it's true today. The brain is highly attuned to where we sit in a pecking order. The lower we are down in that pecking order, the more unhealthy we became. If you take two smokers, the one higher up is less likely to die of a smoking-related disease than the one lower down.

Steven Bartlett 0:56 That's mental.

Will Storr 0:57 It matters massively.

Steven Bartlett 1:00 How do we advance in the status game?

Will Storr 1:02 There are kind of three general types of status games that we can play. First game is a-

Steven Bartlett 1:09 Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (laid-back music) Will,

Steven Bartlett 1:26 first of all, thank you for being here. Um, take me right back then to your early years, 'cause I think wh- when I was reading through your different books here, throughout them you have glimpses of your own perspective, and it-

Will Storr 1:38 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:38 ... hints back to what I read about your, your early years.

Will Storr 1:41 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:42 Um, so take me back, right back to the start, you know, before the age of, let's say, 12.

Will Storr 1:47 Mm-hmm. Okay, so, yeah, um, I was brought up in Tunbridge Wells in Kent, um, middle class family, very Catholic. Um, it was quite a Victorian, um, strict, superstitious religious upbringing. Not the happiest upbringing, I have to say.

Steven Bartlett 2:10 Why?

Will Storr 2:10 Um, because my parents were very strict, my father was very strict especially, um, and, uh, they were very much in the grip of their ex- kind of, Catholic belief system, which I just didn't never, like, always baffled me even as a kid, just like, "What? How, how," you know? How can you believe this stuff? And I went to a Catholic school, so, s- so... A- and I was quite a, I don't know, I was probably a diff- if you were to ask them, they'd say I was a difficult child, um, because I was pushing against that all the time, you know? I thought it was crazy, I wasn't very good at authority and rules, so it was a bad fit, I would say. Um, and I think that's what's, you know, one of the things that, that's kind of driven my interests into adulthood. My, y- you know, my, my, my second book, The Heretics, was looking at why do otherwise smart people believe, end up believing these crazy things? 'Cause my parents are smart people, but, um, yeah, you know, they believe in heaven, hell, Satan, all of that stuff. I, I think that's how my childhood has informed my interests as an adult, trying to figure out how, how that happens.

Steven Bartlett 3:19 In your, in your book, Selfie, you s- you talk a lot about self-esteem-

Will Storr 3:22 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 3:23 ... and the role that plays. What was your... Give me the context of your s- how your self-esteem was shaped in those early years?

Will Storr 3:28 (laughs) Ah, well, um, how it was shaped in its early years, I guess it was poorly would be the answer. Um, I think the, you know, because my behavior was not great, the continual message I would get from teachers and parents was that you're, you know, you're a bad person, you're gonna end up in prison, you're going to end up in care. Um, uh, yeah, so, s- s- so there was very little kind of positive feedback in my, in my childhood, which I think is... That, that causes damage that you're never gonna get over, I, I believe.

Steven Bartlett 4:09 Do you think you, you never get over that damage?

Will Storr 4:11 Yes, because I, I think, you know, we're all born with a certain kind of personality, with a certain genome, and that, that's not fate. That doesn't define who you're gonna be forever. Um, but, but, but it sets you on a certain course, it makes you vulnerable to a certain kind of mindset. Um, and, you know, it... I, I think a good childhood, a good upbringing can, you know, correct that to a certain degree, but a bad one can, can set it on a sort of negative course. And I'm quite a neurotic person, I'm anxious, I, I've always worried a lot. So, so when if you take that kind of natural personality type, high neuroticism, and add into that a childhood which kind of reinforces that sense that the world is dangerous, that people are out to get you, all of that stuff, that, that, that, that, that, that reality isn't safe, I, I, I... A- a- and then, you know, what happens is your brain is still being formed really up until your, your mid-20s, you know? That, that is in your mid-20s when, when that, that, when those kind of learning processes, um, uh, stop. And so it's very hard, and probably, I would argue, probably impossible to reverse 18 years of that kind of feedback once it's happened because that's, those are the years in which your brain is learning how the world works. And, and, and so, yeah, so I, I don't think it's fixable.

Steven Bartlett 5:30 That, that's one of the, the ongoing, um, conversations, or debates, or things that I've kind of been chewing over from doing this podcast and, and listening to, to people from all walks of life that have achieved amazing things that still have, um, underlying trauma or sort of self stories that are controlling their, their, their life and their behavior. And I, I, I spent a long time talking to people about whether you can ever truly eradicate some of these traumas, they're like the puppet master that's con-

Will Storr 5:56 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 5:56 ... in the back room controlling your, your, your biases and all these things. And my conclusion over the last literally weeks has been that we can diminish the power that our early traumas have over us, but they're always gonna be there.... and is that- is that where you find- find yourself, but in terms of your belief, that we can diminish the power of-

Will Storr 6:14 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 6:14 ... those stories. But they'll always be there.

Will Storr 6:17 Absolutely.

Steven Bartlett 6:17 Yeah.

Will Storr 6:17 That's exactly right, that's what I believe.

Steven Bartlett 6:20 Yeah.

Will Storr 6:20 Exactly, yeah, that we can definitely diminish their power. And, uh, you- you know, I'm 47 now. And it still amazes me that you- you still, you never stop learning, and you never stop learning about yourself, you never lot stop learning about things you get wrong. And I've gotta stop doing that, you know?

Steven Bartlett 6:35 Mm-hmm.

Will Storr 6:36 It's overly simplistic to think of consciousness as this battle between reason and emotion, um, uh, but- but- but there is something like that going on. You know, like our- our emotionality is usually in charge of what we're thinking and what we're doing, you know, we respond emotionally, and that voice in your head then tells a story about what you're feeling. And usually it's to justify that emotion, it's to say, "Yes, you were right to feel like that. You were right to respond in anger and hostility at that person." And then the next day you think, "Oh, maybe I wasn't." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 7:04 (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

Will Storr 7:06 You know? So- so, um, I think what we call, what we used to call reason, that reasonable voice in your head, actually often isn't reasonable. It's just justifying and validating your em- initial emotional response, which is, you know, sometimes right, sometimes wrong. So- so I think what you're doing when you're learning, for me anyway, is- is you're learning actually... He- I mean, almost to parent yourself, to- to turn that voice in your head into a- someone that isn't gonna be a harsh judge, or on the other extreme, someone who's just going to accept and validate and defend everything, every behavior you do, every thought you have, every mistake you make- you make. You're looking for that- that balance all the time, and you're looking to spot... I think you're looking to spot those occasions in which you're making the same mistake over and over again, you know?

Steven Bartlett 7:55 Have you got a harsh judge in your head?

Will Storr 7:57 Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, I have. You- you know, I'm self- I'm self-employed. I've been a- I've been a writer for, you know, without an employer for 20 years. You- you kind of, I think you have to have a harsh judge to get yourself out of bed, to get yourself in front of the computer, (laughs) to do eight hours plus work a day. Um, so- so I think to, it's kind of weird, I think- I think to achieve any- anything significant, you've got to, there's got to be a harsh- harshness to... I'm just trying to think whether judge is the right- right word. Like I read recently that the ideal parent is kind of firm, but also kind and caring and understanding. And- and I think that's what, I think that's- if that's the ideal parent, I think that's really, that- that's- that's the ideal of who should be inside our own heads, really. You gotta have that balance. Um, and I think you can go- you can go wrong in either direction.

Steven Bartlett 8:53 Your book Selfie.

Will Storr 8:54 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 8:54 Um,

Steven Bartlett 8:55 what was the... I mean, I love the name.

Will Storr 8:57 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 8:57 It was very of the time in 2017 as well.

Will Storr 9:00 It was, yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 9:01 Um, what was the inspiration behind writing this book?

Will Storr 9:06 Right, so the book before that was called The Heretics. And The Heretics was, as I said before, it's gonna be inspired by this idea of what- how do smart people end up believing crazy things? A- and so that- that book was all about when we have these stubborn beliefs that kind of, that- that- that are irrational, that we don't let go of. So I was hanging out with Holocaust deniers, I was hanging out with creationists, UFO believers, people like this. Um, and then in the promotion for that, I was asked again and again and again by people, "So what makes people change their minds? You're saying that people can never change their minds?" And I didn't have an answer to that question, I was gonna have to bluff through it. So I thought, well that's, you know, I don't understand that. So, um, maybe I should try and find out. So I was a journalist at the time, it was a day job. And so I started interviewing lots of people who changed their minds, like in big dramatic, kind of powerful ways. Um, one of those guys, um, was this amazing psychologist called Professor Roy Baumeister. Um, he spent his kind of early professional career in the self-esteem era of the '80s, you know, when... And this is the era I was brought up too, when everything was about self-esteem, when it was all about, the- the kind of message out there was, "If you want to be successful, just love yourself. You're amazing, you're fantastic. You can do anything that you want." You know, it's Whitney Houston, um, the greatest love of all is yourself. It was- it was that kind of era. And I remember it from school, I remember like, you know, teachers saying to me, "The problem with you, Will, is you just have low self-esteem." And they always used to call it, self-esteem, a social vaccine. And if you- if you loved yourself, it- it meant that you would be more successful, you'd be happier, you'd have a better marriage. And you know, in America they- they thought that self-esteem was gonna solve homelessness, um, gang culture, um, teenage parenthood was a big moral panic of the time, they thought it was gonna cure that. So he was like, "Well, is it true? Is this actually true?" And so they looked into it and they found actually that there was no evidence that- that any of this was true, that- that every study that quoted it as being true just referenced another study, and you went on this breadcrumb trail of studies, they were all just quoting each other and there was no actual evidence any of this is true. And they tested, they- they actually tested to see whether that self-esteem myth was true or not. Um, and it wasn't. Um, it wasn't true. (laughs) Um, it- it was- it was originally based on this idea that they, this- this observation that schoolchildren who did well in exams also had high self-esteem. So they assumed that having high self-esteem made you good at exams. But actually, (laughs) they had high self-esteem because they'd done good in their exams. It was- it was the other way around. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 11:33 Yeah.

Will Storr 11:34 Because it's obvious in retrospect, but that's what they, you know... So that- that was the error they made. Correlation causation, that old chestnut. Um, so- so he, um, published this study, and the initial response was just, you know, it was absolutely torn to pieces. Um, it was either ignored or attacked. Um, but slowly, he was proven to be right. And so when I was... I- I wrote a profile of Baumeister, and, um, you know, he was a fascinating guy. Um, and then what I realized was that this idea had, um, not just changed a person, but it changed a culture. Like the whole culture of the West, Britain, America, Canada, and lots of Europe-... when I was growing up in the '80s and '90s, we- we- we were just obsessed with this idea, and it's- just- it was just wrong. It's completely wrong. So that was the- that's the heart of Selfie, which is this- this idea of in- how- how- how did selfie culture happen?

Steven Bartlett 12:24 Mm-hmm.

Will Storr 12:24 How did we become so self-obsessed? And- and the self-esteem movement is- was a big part of that story, and it's the kind of- it's that- it's the kind of central story of the book.

Steven Bartlett 12:32 Chapter Zero-

Will Storr 12:33 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 12:34 ... um, The Dying Self-

Will Storr 12:35 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 12:36 ... was a- was quite difficult to read.

Will Storr 12:37 Oh, okay. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 12:38 I thought it was a very, um, you know, you explore topics like suicide and, um, your own sort of self-doubt and things like that, and, um, your own suicidal ideation at times. Why- why did you choose to start the book in that way?

Will Storr 12:55 I suppose I wanted to start the book there to show, you know, why this matters. You know, wha- wha- where I ended up with the book was th- this idea that we live- that we are, in the West, individualists. You- you know, we see the world as made up of individual pieces and parts, and we are individually responsible for our fates. We're individually responsible for our success and our failure. And there's lots of good things to say about that. You know, it's- it's an extremely motivating way of organizing your thoughts, organizing your life. Um, you know, I am responsible for me, and- and I will take care of me. Um, but it's also kind of savage, you know, a- and, um, it- it- it means, you know, that- that kind of Western myth we have is the, um, you know, that you can do anything that you want. Just put your mind to it. You can achieve it. Th- that- that kind of mindset. Um, but- but very often, we fail. (laughs) A- and so if it's true that you're responsible for your success, then it only logically follows that you're also, um, responsible for your failure. Um, a- and so, um, these individualistic ideas accelerated in the 1980s, and that was because of a variety of things. It was the self-esteem movement partly, but the self-esteem movement became successful because we- because of the Thatcher-Reagan revolution, is my argument, neoliberalism, that we changed the economies of the West. We changed the game. You know, uh, before the 1980s, we were much more collective. It was much more, um, y- you know, socialist. E- even in America, the top rate of tax was 90%. You know, it's- it's extraordinary. Uh, um, so- but- and- and then the economy started going wrong in the '70s, so the neoliberal revolution happened, and- and the idea, the central idea that, you know, Reagan and Thatcher pursued was, "We're gonna increase competition wherever we can, so reduce the social safety net, privatize everything, just everyone's got to be competitive." And it changed who we are, you know? It- it- when you change the rules of the game of life, you change the people who play that game, which is what my latest book is about really. A- and so we became more, um, competitive as a people, and- and what- what psychologists find is a major study that found that since, um, the, you know, the onset of neoliberalism, levels of perfectionism have increased massively in the UK, in America, and in Canada. Uh, and, um, perfectionism is implicated in suicidal ideation, in eating disorders, in steroid abuse, and- you know, and self-harm and so on and so on and so on. So- s- so that's why I wanted to begin the book there, is t- to show why this matters, you know? The- the- this- it isn't just a kind of abstract academic exploration of the self. You know, I wanted to begin with, "This is how it affects people."

Steven Bartlett 15:36 If perfectionism can be quite an insidious, um, issue in Western cultures, where we're getting more individualistic, what is a better approach, do you think, to take for- what is a better message to share with society and the world about, um, about that?

Will Storr 15:51 Um, I- I- I think, uh, you know, I like the idea of, you- you know, I think the idea that I kind of develop is- i- i- in Selfie, partly it's about self-acceptance rather than self-love. I think s- self-love, um, is that, you know, where I used to be a massive fan of Big Brother, when Big Brother was on. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 16:09 Really?

Will Storr 16:09 A- and- and there was always this thing in Big Brother where, um, somebody would behave completely obnoxiously. They'd be like rude, aggressive, just deeply unpleasant, and they- they would always defend themselves in the same way. They'd go, "Well, I'm just being me. That's just me. And if you don't like me ..." You know? And- and I think that's- that's the self-esteem movement talking. It's like, "I'm my- I'm gonna be my authentic self, and if you can't handle that, that's on you." And I think that's wrong. You know, you know, we're a social animal. We've- we- we have evolved to exist cooperatively, and I think when individualism, I think there's a lot to say in its defense, but when it goes too far, that's where it becomes- it becomes that kind of "Screw you," um, mindset. So I think self-acceptance is different than self-love. Self-acceptance is, "I'm a flawed, broken animal," (laughs) you know, as we all are. And, you know, a- a- a little like what we were talking about earlier on, it's about being that harsh but loving parent rather than that- rather than being your own defense lawyer-

Steven Bartlett 17:05 Mm-hmm.

Will Storr 17:05 ... you know, being- being that kind of harsh but loving parent. And being accepted, b- b- you know, ha- having this acceptance that you are a flawed and limited animal. Like, you know, you- you- you shouldn't raise your children to believe that they can be- be Beyoncé if they wanna be Beyoncé, 'cause the chances are they can't. She's like an extraordinarily talented and driven individual. (laughs) She's the one in a billion, you know? (laughs) So, uh, y- you know, y- y- it's- so I think that's an unhealthy message to- by which to raise our children and also, you know, talk to ourselves. It is much more about understanding our- our- our strengths, our flaws, and kind of finding the right games to play, to find that- that little corner of the world in which we can feel, um, of value. I think that's- that- that's what we should be trying to do.

Steven Bartlett 17:47 Had your parents told

Steven Bartlett 17:49 you that you were Beyoncé, and had those schools told you that-

Will Storr 17:52 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 17:52 ... you were Beyoncé-

Will Storr 17:52 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 17:53 ... would you have been happier, do you think?

Will Storr 17:55 Um ... I mean, I wa- I was sometimes told that- that I could succeed at school, but I just wasn't applying myself, and, "It's such a waste. It's such a waste."

Steven Bartlett 18:06 That's a backhanded- yeah.

Will Storr 18:07 Yeah. Um-But, uh, it's so weird, the school thing. I, I, I mean, I, I have to say, I think I went to a really bad school. Uh, uh, it, um, it was a comprehensive school. Um, you know, you hear these stories about t- teachers that inspire you, and, "Oh, if it wasn't for this teacher..." I never had that teacher. (laughs) They were all just really bored and resentful.

Steven Bartlett 18:26 (laughs)

Will Storr 18:26 I remember g- going to class, and there's one teacher who just opened his folder, "Where were we?"

Steven Bartlett 18:30 (laughs)

Will Storr 18:30 He just read, he'd read from his folder for about 50 minutes, and that would be the history lesson, you know. A- and that, that was the school I went to. It was miserable. And I, and I'm, I, I always wanted to be a writer, and I was always in trouble. I was always this sort of problem student. And I had this English teacher who was quite nice, called Mr. Lanaway (laughs) . And I thought, "Well, you know, I'm gonna write, start writing short stories in my spare time, and I'm gonna give them to my English teacher, as, as just a way of getting, like, 'Look, you know, I've written this thing.'" And so I gave him a, a couple, and then I, and I think I gave him number three (laughs) , uh, uh, you know, after writing on, on a third weekend, thinking that I, that he was... Oh, in my head, he was thinking, "Oh, Will's w- you know, William has found this thing that he's actually applying himself to. How amazing." And he said to me, "Ugh, you know this is all just extra work for me, don't you?" Like that, so he kind of scolded me for giving him extra work to do. So I stopped, I stopped writing those, you know, short stories (laughs) . And, and I just think if I'd, if I, if I'd have actually been encouraged to be a... I was never encouraged to be a writer by my school or, you know. I, I wrote a school magazine, and that, that caused me all kinds of trouble as well (laughs) .

Steven Bartlett 19:29 (laughs)

Will Storr 19:30 So, so, so I was, I wa- I never actually had any encouragement. And I, I, I do kind of think that if I was actually encouraged, um, to be a writer, I would have probably got there sooner and probably been a better writer today.

Steven Bartlett 19:42 Well, on that point of Beyoncé, though, it seems to me that if someone had turned around to you and said, "You, you are Beyoncé, and you can do anything. You could be an amazing writer," it seems to me that, that, that actually might have helped.

Will Storr 19:53 Yes. Yeah, yes.

Steven Bartlett 19:54 (laughs)

Will Storr 19:54 But that, but that's what I mean about identifying your strengths. Like, I think for me, writing was a strength. But nobody ever... And if, and if that was identified, a- and if somebody said to me, "God, you know, you should carry on writing these." Literally, if one person, one adult said to me, "These short stories are, you know, they show real promise. You should carry on writing these," it would have blown my mind. I'd have go- I'd have definitely carried on. Um, but I just stopped, you know. I just stopped. Uh, I, I, I, it, so yeah, but that's what I mean, is I, I think the mistake is, um, somebody, when I, i- in the research for Selfie, this Harvard psychologist, Brian Little, said it's the myth of unlimited control, that myth of you can, you can, you know, you have full control over your- yourself as a human being, and that means that you can do anything. That's the problem, you know. That's the problem. A- and, but actually, I think what, what, what you should do is identify, what is this person passionate about, you know, and what are they actually, what are they actually good at? And if, and, and if, and if, and if somebody saw promise in me as a journalist or a writer, then that, that's what they sh- they should have encouraged me in. But it was actually just a battle.

Steven Bartlett 20:57 In, um, in, in the ch- in the chapter The Good Self, in that book, chapter four, you talk about, um, the different forces that are controlling our behavior.

Will Storr 21:03 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 21:04 And, uh, it made me think, I've, you know, that I've also had this, this ongoing thought about how control of, of my life I... over what the forces are that are actually controlling my life. 'Cause we tend to believe, obviously, as we would, from this first-person view, that I'm making my decisions. But when I (laughs) ... It sounds quite... I don't care, I'm gonna say it. When I reflect on the stories I've heard from men regarding their behavior before they've ejaculated-

Will Storr 21:32 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 21:32 ... and after they've ejaculated, it is pretty, it's... And I actually said this in, like, podcast number four-

Will Storr 21:39 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 21:39 ... when no one was actually listening, and it was just me un- under the stairs in Manchester. I said, "The change that I saw in my behavior, or how I felt, before and after ejaculation, is extreme."

Will Storr 21:53 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:53 And I watched Rogan talk about this. He described it as being, before ejaculation, at the back of the bus.

Will Storr 21:59 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 21:59 And you're just fucking being swung around. The-

Will Storr 22:01 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 22:01 He said, "It's foggy. There's papers everywhere." And da, da... And then he says, post-ejaculation, it's like you zoom forward onto the wheel of the bus and go, "Oh, fuck. What was going on there?" (laughs)

Will Storr 22:09 Yes (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 22:09 And you gain back control.

Will Storr 22:11 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 22:11 And just this, um... It, for me, that was one of the clearest signs that my decision-making a- is not as intentional as I thought it was (laughs) .

Will Storr 22:21 No, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 22:22 Um, and you talk about that kind of thing a little bit in that chapter. You talk about a study where, um, men are asked, um, a variety of different questions while they're masturbating.

Will Storr 22:32 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 22:33 Can you, can you share that study, and also, like, what you learned from it about the way that we make our decisions?

Will Storr 22:37 (laughs) Well, I haven't... That, that was... I haven't read about that study for a, a good five years now. But I think it was something about... They were asked a series of questions about, um... Well, were they asked a series of questions about what they would do in certain s-

Steven Bartlett 22:54 Yeah, it's like their sexual preferences.

Will Storr 22:56 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 22:56 So it was like, "Would you, would you be attracted to an animal? Would you be-"

Will Storr 22:59 That's it, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 23:00 ... you know. Quite disturbing.

Will Storr 23:01 Yeah. A- and, I, I think before they'd masturbated, their, their answers were much more extreme, in the direction of, "Yes, I would have sex with an animal." (laughs) "Yes, I would pressure somebody into having sex," than they would after, um, masturbation. And I think most men can r- can read that study and go... You can relate a little bit to-

Steven Bartlett 23:19 Mm.

Will Storr 23:19 Not, not that I'm saying that, you know, most men would have sex with an animal, obviously (laughs) . But, but, but how our, how our, um, how our thinking is different. And, and, and, you know, a- a- and, and I love studies like that, because it, I th- I feel like it... You know, when we're, when, when we've, when we feel a different way, we do almost become a different person. Like, I remember writing in Selfie about, um, you know, when I'm trying to lose weight again. And on Monday morning, I'm absolutely resolute. It's like, "I'm gonna keep my calories down, I'm gonna exercise every day. I am a machine. I'm a Stoic. I'm athletic." You know, "That's who I am." But by Friday evening, I'm just like, "Ah, sod it. I'm gonna give up. I, oh, I need to have some chips." You know. A- and it's like, it's not just that you feel a different way. It's almost that you become a different person.... by which I mean you have a different personality. You're much more loose and happy and good to be around on Friday than you are on Monday-

Steven Bartlett 24:14 (laughs)

Will Storr 24:14 ... when you're like that. Uh, but you have a different value system. The, uh, on Monday, I value this set of things.

Steven Bartlett 24:20 (laughs)

Will Storr 24:20 I value discipline-

Steven Bartlett 24:22 Yeah.

Will Storr 24:22 ... and order and structure, and on Friday evening, I value fun and laughter and pleasure. So it's, so it's, so it, so it is that we almost, you know, I think pre and post-ejaculation, we almost become a different person. Monday v- Monday morning versus Friday night, we become different people. So I think that, you know, we, we, we're so fluid in, in who we are, depending on how we're feeling.

Steven Bartlett 24:44 We don't wanna be there.

Will Storr 24:45 No. That's not how we think of ourselves. We think of ourselves as a, yeah, certain kind of person, yeah, with, with a, as, as a certain boxed-in set of values and behaviors.

Steven Bartlett 24:55 I think, you know, there's probably somewhere above 50% of people listening that can relate to that Monday issue of, you know, "On Monday, I am, you know, a Greek god-"

Will Storr 25:03 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 25:04 "... and I am disciplined, and I am everything, I will become everything I wanna be on, by, you know, by next week." Um, and then something happens. H- how does... I would be remiss if I didn't ask-

Will Storr 25:14 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 25:15 ... what can you tell us about how to stop or how to maintain or be consistent as our Monday selves? Is there anything you've learnt about the psychology there that might help us to be our Monday selves come Friday?

Will Storr 25:29 So in, in Selfie, I write about, um, how important it is to change our environment rather than try and, rather than change, try and change ourself.

Steven Bartlett 25:36 Mm-hmm.

Will Storr 25:37 Uh, uh, uh, uh, and, and the kind of ex- the, the kind of story that I tell is, I, I call it the, the lizard and the iceberg, where if you take a lizard from the desert and pop it on an iceberg, it's gonna be a very unhappy lizard.

Steven Bartlett 25:47 (laughs)

Will Storr 25:47 If you put it back in the desert, it's gonna be happy and thriving and wonderful. And nothing has changed in the lizard. It's the environment that's changed. And I, and I, and I think part of being an individualist and, w- is that we look into, into ourselves, to our behavior, to, um, explain the causes of our behavior, but actually, you know, so much of, uh, o- of, um, uh, o- o- of, of our behavior is controlled by what's going on around us by, by our environment, you know? A- and the reason that we feel, you know, Friday on Friday is 'cause we've, 'cause it's Friday, and that has a cultural resonance. "It's Friday night, yeah. Thank, thank fuck it's Friday," and, a- and we've had five days of work, so we feel different. Um, so it's, so I think a lot of it is about changing your environment. Y- you know, there, uh, there is a lot to say about, you know, if you take yourself to the gym, you've changed your environment.

Steven Bartlett 26:33 Yeah.

Will Storr 26:33 Um, if you, um, if you can ch- y- certainly with things like weight loss, I mean, I, it's a lesson that I never seem to learn, but do not have that stuff in the house.

Steven Bartlett 26:44 Oh my god, man. Yeah.

Will Storr 26:44 'Cause it will guarantee that you will eat it. Um-

Steven Bartlett 26:46 Yeah.

Will Storr 26:46 ... you know? It's, it's, it's a drug, uh, a- and, and, and so, so, so I think, I, I th- I think maintain your environment to maintain yourself, you know? I th- I think that's, that, that, that's one of the, one of the key takeaways that I've learned.

Steven Bartlett 27:01 How to stay alive in

Steven Bartlett 27:02 the age of perfectionism. How does one stay alive? One of the interesting things in that chapter was, um, you kind of debunk this idea that alcoholism, for example, and a lot of these things, you know, that I've spoken to guests about on this podcast that they've suffered with, um, don't necessarily stem from having a unhappy childhood.

Will Storr 27:21 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 27:22 I've got a friend that, you know, he's very public about the fact that he became an alcoholic, and, um, I, I guess I believed it was because of traumatic early events. I, I tended to believe that that was the case. But you debunk that quite clearly, um, and, and kind of accept that personality is the causal factor in, in most of our predispositions.

Will Storr 27:40 Yeah. I, I think one of the things that I've, th- that, that I've learnt, um, well, certainly from researching that book was the, just the incredible power of personality and the incredible power of the, of, o- of our genes. Um, it's really, people don't like to talk about this stuff and because it, it, it, it, it... They, they feel it's disempowering. So whenever you read a self-help book, most of them, 99% of self-help books never mention genes because it's unhelpful. They, they want to promote that idea of 100% self-control, I can be whoever I want to be. Um, but, but, but, but, but genes are so important. Uh, and as I said, it's not that they d- dictate who we are or, you know, or, um, you're b- you're, you're born with a kind of blueprint and that's all you're ever gonna be. Um, b- but you are born with a certain kind of genome, you know, with a certain level of, n- likely neuroticism, openness to experience, extroversion, um, agreeableness, you know, how, how kind of happy or kind of angry or competitive you are and so on. And so you're born kind of with a certain prevailing wind, and then your childhood experiences mostly, um, will, um, do the rest of that wiring up. So by the time you're in your, in, in your kind of 20s, you're kind of who you are. Like not 100% 'cause still traumatic experiences can break you to pieces, you know, you're in f- you know, th- you know, lots of things can change, but you're kind of who you are. As I said, p- you know, people don't like that idea because it really goes against our individualist kind of credo of you can be Beyonce if you want to be, but it is nevertheless true that, that a huge amount of who we are is just how we were, who, who we were born as, you know? And I've got that addictive personality. I was an alcoholic. I haven't... I, I had to give up drinking when I was 26 'cause I'd lost control of how much I was drinking, and I still struggle with kind of, you know, sugar now. I, I, I've swapped booze for sugar is, is my p- problematic behavior, which is much easier to manage. Um, so, so, so I get it. And, and, and, but, but, but yeah, it's, it's not, it's... I, I think part the fact that we're these storytelling animals, um, w- I think, uh, since '70s, since the s- probably the s- well, even the '60s, we've had this kind of, um, therapy culture which wants to go archeological digging in our pasts to- for the causes of our, um, all of our problems. And you know, I, I think there's a, th- th- there is a certain amount of, um, truth to that stuff. Like I, you know, I, I'm, I'm sure our childhoods, uh, affect us. Um, but, but, um, there are, th- we t- we tend to blame everything on our childhoods, everything on our parents, a- and I think alcoholism is one of those things that it's mostly genetic, you know? You've either got that problem with addiction or you don't.

Steven Bartlett 30:23 Could it- can it- can it be accelerated by trauma, though? Because, uh, you know, when I- when I speak to psychologists, they often talk about it- it being a form of escapism-

Will Storr 30:30 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 30:30 ... um, in many ways, and other drugs and, you know, other self-medications being a form of, like, trying to escape pain or trauma.

Will Storr 30:37 Definitely, yeah. It g- I- I- I think how- how to think about it is that it's, um- You could have a vulnerability to it.

Steven Bartlett 30:44 Yeah.

Will Storr 30:44 Um, a- and that's the genetic component. Um, and if something bad happens to you, then you're much more likely to kind of fall into that trap.

Steven Bartlett 30:51 Versus someone else who doesn't have that.

Will Storr 30:53 Yeah, versus who doesn't. Yeah, exactly, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:54 Okay.

Will Storr 30:54 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:55 On that point of storytelling,

Steven Bartlett 30:56 you mentioned storytelling there in our, um, in our narrative. Your- your book in 2019 was about storytelling. I, having worked in marketing, was very compelled to- to read this book for the probably- You know, we talked before we started recording, that a lot of people will see a book about- with the word "storytelling" on the front of it-

Will Storr 31:11 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 31:11 ... and think that they can use it from a marketing capacity or in a business sense. What have you learnt about how people can tell great stories in the context of business and marketing?

Will Storr 31:24 Yeah, well, um, so quite- quite a lot. I teach, uh, I- I teach business storytelling at Section4, which is a American, um, ed tech, um, uh, organization. So I- so I- so I- I do a- a- a course there on- in the science of storytelling for business. Um, and- and, you know, we- we are storytelling animals. We- we- we think in story. We- we, um, you know, narrative is basically, you know, eh, h- how we experience ourselves and- a- and life. And so, as I say in that course, if you're not communicating with story as a marketeer, you- you're not- you're not communicating. You know, logic and facts and data and statistics, that's not the language of the brain. The language of the brain's beginning, middle, and end, a character overcoming obstacles. I think a lot- a lot of the stuff we've been talking about is important, um, especially, um, the idea that people think with their feelings. You know, they- th- it's feelings first, story second. The story justifies the feelings. And so if you want to tell persuasive stories, you need to first understand exactly who you're communicating with, and you need to understand, um, how they feel about the world, how they feel about themselves, how they- how they feel about, um, you know, justice and, uh, what their values are. And so that means understanding them kind of tribally. What- what groups do they belong to? Who are their heroes? Who are their villains? What motivates them? What demotivates them? So- s- s- so before you can sort of write the story, you need to figure out how they feel about the world.

Steven Bartlett 32:51 So a bad story, then, would be one that was... 'Cause, you know, I- I thought about this a lot in my previous business, was, um, very successful in storytelling. So my first company, Social Chain, it's, you know, grown to be a very big business, maybe 1,000 employees worldwide. We were- Um, we started out as a- as a marketing agency, never had a sales team because we- we focused on telling stories. Those stories were told on social media and on stage by me. So when I would go up on stage and talk about our agency to try and win business-

Will Storr 33:17 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 33:17 ... from Apple or Coca-Cola, whoever it was, um, I would actually start by talking about me and my relationship with my mother.

Will Storr 33:23 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 33:23 And that would be the first sentences out of my mouth when I walked on stage. If there was 1,000 people or 15,000 people there, it would be about my mother. And through that story about my mother and my- and my, um, upbringing and my battles and all those things, eventually you'd learn about our business and what we do and about the great work we do. But that was the preface of it, and that meant we never needed a- a- a s-, um, a sales team. I've always believed that if I'd walked on stage and started with a case study-

Will Storr 33:49 Yes. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 33:50 (laughs) ... I would have- I would have- I would have had to have a sales team at Social Chain knocking on doors.

Will Storr 33:54 Yeah, definitely.

Steven Bartlett 33:54 And I think this is one of the biggest mistakes businesses make. When they pitch, when they- when they speak on stage, when they post on social media, I think they have a- they believe that th- the listener wants big numbers and to how many views they got for their clients or f- uh, you know. And it just doesn't seem to be consistent with reality.

Will Storr 34:14 No, it's not. I mean, so what you're doing when you're going into about your mother is you're connecting emotionally.

Steven Bartlett 34:18 Mm.

Will Storr 34:19 So people are, you know, wanting... They're on your side immediately, and- and you're making them feel good. You're making them feel things emotionally. Um, the- the- the kind of framework that I use for business storytelling is the- is the- is that, you know, essentially, people's brains process reality, um, in the same way, and that's the, uh... You know, so- so they're the hero of their story. You're not the hero standing on the stage. The company that- that- that's selling to you isn't the hero. They're the hero of their own story. Um, they are, you know- they- they've got goals they're trying to pursue. We all have, you know, that- which are the plots of our lives. We-

Steven Bartlett 34:52 The audience.

Will Storr 34:53 Yeah, the audience, the person you're selling to. Um, and then th- th- th- there's a brilliant story analyst called Christopher Booker who wrote this amazing book called The Seven Basic Plots, and he writes about, um, archetypal characters in storytelling that he calls light figures. And so the light figure is- Uh, the example he uses are the three ghosts in, you know, Christmas Carol, the Charles Dickens Scrooge story. So Scrooge is the hero of that story, uh, but the three ghosts come in to show him Christmas past, Christmas present, Christmas future. They help him get what he needs, which is to become a better, more selfless, more generous, more loving, giving person that they- they... so they- they are gonna- they arrive in his story to kind of show him the way to help him get what he needs. And so that- that- that- that's what I argue. That's the appropriate positions for most companies and organizations and leaders is not to be the hero because your audience feels like they're the hero. You're the light figure. You're there to help them get what they want. So when you go straight in with, "Here's all my awards. Here's what this person said about me. Here's some statistics and stuff," you're not a light figure. You're presenting as the hero. What people really want to know is, "How can you help me get what I want?" And- and- and that's- that's the story that you have to tell.

Steven Bartlett 36:01 What kind of example can you give me to really make that- m- make me understand that in a real practical sense? Is there a brand you've seen do this really well? Is there an example of a... I- I mean, I- I... My- my brain went to Nike for some reason because Nike's-

Will Storr 36:14 Yeah. Yeah, w- well, that's... Oh, and N- Nike's a really interesting example. So s- s- so obviously, one of the things that Nike have- uh, has done recently is it's, um, done that ad campaign around Colin Kaepernick, which is, you know-

Steven Bartlett 36:27 Yeah.

Will Storr 36:27 ... controversial, but did them... I think- I think their sales went up to, like, 6%, like, uh, a- after that- that a- that ad campaign. And that's a really good example of, um, a- an organization who is, um, um-... behaving as a light figure. So that Colin Kaepernick, er, campaign has nothing to do with shoes. (laughs) There's, you know, the, what they're not doing is going, "Our shoes will make you run 8% faster. We've got these sprung soles. We've got these amazing laces that won't trip you up," or whatever. You know, their, their, their stats list is not in there. It's, it, it's, it's purely, it, they, they're telling a story. They've figured out that their client base are mostly believing cer-, you know, this set of beliefs around the world. And, and those, those are goals. You know, people who, you know, the, the, the target audience that they're, um, they're a- a- appealing to want to achieve this kind of racial, social justice, and it's important to them. So, so what Nike are basically saying is, "You know, we are light figures in this story. We," you know, "we, we are, we, we are on the side of the Colin Kaepernicks, of the people who are kneeling. You know, we believe that Black lives matter." Um, and, and so they're presenting as a light figure. And, and if you think about it rationally, it's kind of crazy. Like, why would a shoe company have this political thing? But it's because of the storytelling. Because, because they're presenting as a light figure, who were, who was engaged in the kind of, y- y- you know, this particular mission in the world. And, you know, in, in order to kind of, to, to, to, to, to kind of join the mission, you, you buy the Nike shoes. And, and, and it, and it worked. You know, it works really well. I mean, er, er, one of the archetypal examples, um, that, that I talk about, that I love is, er, that there was, um, an ad that was broadcast, I think it was in the '60s by Volkswagen. And it was the first kind of modern adv- adv- advert. It was the first, it was the first advert that you would look at and recognise as the kind of advertising that we do today. So before this Volkswagen ad, um, c-, you know, all ads were just stats lists. "Here's this amazing," you know, "tyre," and, you know-

Steven Bartlett 38:26 Mm-hmm.

Will Storr 38:26 ... "This'll get you naught to sixty" and whatever. Um, and, and then this Volkswagen did this amazing ad where, um, it just, it was black and white, because it was still in the days of black and white. And they had, um, it just showed this guy. It was all snow, it was a big blizzard outside. And this guy gets in his car, he turns, it's like, it's like, you know, just before dawn. Turns on his ignition, drives his car through the blizzard, through the blizzard, through the blizzard. Opens these huge shed doors, and then you hear this big engine start up, and out drives this snowplough. And it's how does the guy who drives the snowplough get to the snowplough? And it says Volkswagen. And that's it. Really simple, really effective story. And it's showing Volkswagen as this light figure. "We are helping the hero achieve what he wants." And, you know, I don't believe that the Volkswagen was particularly good at driving through blizzards. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 39:11 Yeah.

Will Storr 39:12 I don't believe that.

Steven Bartlett 39:13 Mm-hmm.

Will Storr 39:13 Like, a- a- and they certainly weren't making any factual claim in the sense that, "We are better than Land Rover," and whatever, whatever, whatever, "at doing this because of this stat." It, that, it was as simple as that, and it revolutionised marketing. It changed everything because they'd figured out that kind of light figure form of storytelling.

Steven Bartlett 39:30 And in that, are they saying that the Volkswagen, Volkswagen enables you to be the hero that moves the snow?

Will Storr 39:36 Exactly, yeah. Yeah. So-

Steven Bartlett 39:37 And Nike are saying that the Nike shoe, associating it with Colin Kaepernick-

Will Storr 39:41 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 39:42 ... enables you to be the social activist hero.

Will Storr 39:46 Hero, exactly. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:47 Like Colin Kaepernick was.

Will Storr 39:48 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:50 Interesting. Fascinating. I'm just gonna change a few things about my, er, a few of my companies I think-

Will Storr 39:55 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 39:55 ... on the basis of that. Yeah, I think, I think we, I think in the course of business, we all forget that emotion is the most important thing. I'm thinking about all the newsletters that my companies have been writing. I've got various companies and the newsletters they write, and the videos we make, and how, and how sometimes we, we think that facts and figures and information is what the viewer is looking for in their lives. But the most compelling way to draw them into whatever we're doing, whether it's a newsletter or a Tweet or whatever, is by putting emotion first and, and really thinking about-

Will Storr 40:26 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 40:26 ... what the emotion of the, the content is.

Will Storr 40:28 Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And, uh, with the, with the Nike example, I mean, we, we live in, uh, since the global financial crisis, we live in heightened political times. And so, so, you know, and, and people are always tribal. And, and, and so, you know, one of the big things that, that, that, that successful kind of persuaders do is, is to make those tribal appeals. Um, and, you know, sometimes it works with Colin Kaepernick. Like, with the Gillette razor campaign, it didn't work (laughs) -

Steven Bartlett 40:52 Mm-hmm.

Will Storr 40:52 ... 'cause you're kind of essentially attacking your target audience, um, uh, so, so that was, you know, less successful. Um, I think there was the terrible Pepsi ad with Kendall Jenner-

Steven Bartlett 41:00 Oh gosh, I was thinking about that just then.

Will Storr 41:01 ... where, where, wh- wh- where they were kind of basically... Yeah, where, where it was just making this, yeah-

Steven Bartlett 41:06 Well, it put a, a super rich, uh, beautiful-

Will Storr 41:08 Yes. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 41:09 ... model white woman as the, uh, the hero (laughs) -

Will Storr 41:13 Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:13 ... against social injustice, which-

Will Storr 41:14 And drinking this sugary drink is gonna help-

Steven Bartlett 41:16 (laughs)

Will Storr 41:16 Yeah. You know, so it's-

Steven Bartlett 41:17 It's just all off, isn't it?

Will Storr 41:18 Yeah. So, so I think organizations are sensing that par- partly how we can be a light figure these days is by, is by, i- is by presenting as people who are assisting in these, th- th- these political goals that have become very important to people, especially young people. Um, a- and some people are getting it right, some people are getting it wrong.

Steven Bartlett 41:38 There's a real science to it though, isn't there?

Will Storr 41:40 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:40 The more we've spoken, I've realized how, how there is a, a science to it when you understand the, the roles and also the audience. The roles of the characters in your content or your piece, and also where the... It's really about where the audience sees themself-

Will Storr 41:54 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:54 ... as you say.

Will Storr 41:54 Yeah.

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Steven Bartlett 42:46 book, The Status Game. This is the book that when I was reading through all of my notes, I have by far the most amount of notes on.

Will Storr 42:53 Great. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 42:53 Because I- maybe it's just, you know, the way I'm compelled or whatever, but it was really, really fascinating and very- it felt very relevant. Status as a topic.

Will Storr 43:00 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 43:02 Why- why does status matter? And what is status, for people that don't understand the word?

Will Storr 43:08 Okay. So- so- so it matters massively, and- and- and I... And the reason I wanted to write that book is because people just don't really talk about it very much. Th- e- even though it- our lives are full of status pursuit, people just don't talk about it very much.

Steven Bartlett 43:21 Status or status? Which one is it?

Will Storr 43:23 Well, s- Americans say stah-tus.

Steven Bartlett 43:24 Okay.

Will Storr 43:24 Brits tend to say stay-tus. But I guess-

Steven Bartlett 43:26 I'll say status.

Will Storr 43:26 ... it's both. Yeah, it's- it's both.

Steven Bartlett 43:27 Okay.

Will Storr 43:27 Um, uh, so- so- so I- I think one of the- one of the- one of the- one of the kind of reasons people kind of tend to not like this subject is that when I s- when I sort of make the argument that we're all motivated by status pursuit, they kind of then think I'm saying, we all wanna be rich, we all wanna be famous, and that's not what I'm saying at all. What- what I'm saying is that we all want to feel of value. So, we evolved as th- as these, you know, tribal animals, and to be successful in the tribe means two things. You've got to be good at connecting with other people, so- so being accepted and h- and- and- and fermenting a sense of belongingness with other people. So that's belongingness, that's connection. That's not status. That's something else. Um, but once we're in a group, in a tribe, we want to rise within it. We want to feel like we are of value to other people. And so back in the days when our brains were evolving in the- in- i- i- you know, when we were living in the- in the tribes, um, uh, the more status that you earned, uh, the more and better food you'd get, the safer your sleeping sites, the safer your children would be, the greater your access to your choice of mates. So, I mean- and I mean, as we all know, survival and reproduction are the basic most fundamental, um, drives we have a- a- as living things. And status, when you rise in status, your chances of survival and reproduction just go up and up and up and up. So, when we're in the tribes, the more s- you know, people would try and get status in the tribes. Um, and- and the more- more status you got, the better everything else became. And so that was true 10,000 years ago, it's true today. That is still true today. (laughs) The more status that you earn, the better everything else gets. So, it's this huge, um, huge component of human behavior, but it's subconscious, so we don't like to think about it sometimes. We like to deny it, even though we all love to feel of value, and we are all very, very sensitive to any indication that we- that somebody considers us to be of lesser value.

Steven Bartlett 45:27 You know, you said at the start about the... When you introduce this topic, people will have kind of an allergic reaction-

Will Storr 45:31 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 45:32 ... because they're think- they think you mean, and it goes back to what we were saying about your audience receiving that message-

Will Storr 45:37 (laughs) Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 45:38 ... in a bad way because of where it frames them.

Will Storr 45:40 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 45:40 It frames them as being kind of narcissistic-

Will Storr 45:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 45:43 ... and s- and selfish and, you know-

Will Storr 45:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 45:45 ... and those that no- nobody wants to admit that they- they are s-

Will Storr 45:47 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 45:47 ... selfish or they are-

Will Storr 45:48 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 45:48 ... you know, they're concerned with status. They don't wanna admit it it's true. (laughs)

Will Storr 45:52 Yeah. Yes, yes.

Steven Bartlett 45:52 But no one wants to say, "I'll say it." (laughs)

Will Storr 45:54 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 45:54 It's just the way that we are. Um, um, b- and then you- you went on to say that, you know, people don't like to admit they wanna be famous, but I- I tend to believe that a lot of people do wanna be famous. And, uh, y- in that book, you talk about children in particular, when they're asked what they wanna be when they're older. It's quite pretty alarming, right?

Will Storr 46:12 Yeah. I, mean, that- and- and- and that's, I mean, that's- that's again an indicator of the rise in individualism, uh, that that's- that- that the more and more kids in the West since the '70s have been saying, "We wanna be rich, we wanna be famous." But there are all kinds of status games that we can play, and I think- I think the, uh, I- I think the- the- one of the important things to understand about status games is- is- is that the brain is so obsessed with status, it- it assigns kind of status points to... It can ass- to anything. So, for- so- so for some people, for lots of people, the accrual of money, that's their status game. That's how they're measuring their status, how much money I've got. Uh, but for other people, for- and it- it can be, um, how simply I live. You know, I- I- like, I- I know someone who, um, uh, he's a lovely guy but he considers himself to be sort of not materialistic and he's very much in the wellness space. And he, um, tell- t- you know, was telling me, um, last year that he's, you know, he takes his kids to their private school, but at the school gates, you- you know, he's got this beaten up old car that he's had since he was a student and he's got masking tape around the- th- th- the wing mirror and he was sort of talking, "Oh, you know, all the other parents have got these big Mercedes and Audis and BMWs, but I've just got this thing." And- and- and I think he- he- he was trying to express the fact that he just didn't care. He just didn't care about his- his status. But for me, he- he did care. That car was every bit as much of a status symbol for him as the, you know, the brand new Mercedes, um, four-wheel drives were for the other parents. It's just that he was playing a different status game. In his game, having a crap car is h- is a high status thing. The same as the aristocracy in Britain. So, you know, if you're- if you remember the British aristocracy, you look down your nose at people who have a brand new Japanese Lexus or whatever. They drive up beaten up Land Rovers. And so- so- so- so, it all depends what game you're playing. Different- different games, um, use different things to symbolize status, and- and- and- and so- so that- so that's how that game works. Lots of people play the fame game, lots of people play the money game, um, but- but other people don't. You know, if you were- if you were- if you were hanging around with Gandhi in India, you wouldn't be playing the- the money game. You- you- you- you- you- you would've got more status for living... The more simpler your life became, the more status in that group you would earn.

Steven Bartlett 48:29 It's so true. I've played all those games in my life-

Will Storr 48:31 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 48:31 ... and still playing many of them.

Will Storr 48:33 (laughs) Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 48:33 Uh, I'm not here to lie, so that's-

Will Storr 48:35 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 48:35 (laughs) ... that's just what it is.

Will Storr 48:37 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 48:37 Um, and I think really interestingly on that as well is, um, one of the status games I was playing when I was a little bit, well I say insecure but clearly I'm still insecure if- if I'm still playing status games- status games now, um, was how much designer stuff can I buy and, uh, l- champagne can I buy in night clubs?

Will Storr 48:53 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 48:53 I played that game between 18 and 24.

Will Storr 48:56 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 48:56 And then when I actually got money, when I actually was successful, I actually s- saw Louis Vuitton as a-... l- lower status things, so I just started wearing all black and got rid of all of my designer stuff (laughs) -

Will Storr 49:08 Yes. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:08 ... because I now think that it's-

Will Storr 49:09 You're in a different game.

Steven Bartlett 49:10 Yeah.

Will Storr 49:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:10 It's a different game-

Will Storr 49:11 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:12 ... that I'm playing now.

Will Storr 49:12 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:12 And so I don't... Now I have an allergic reaction to anything designer because to me, yeah, it's weird, I think it's low status (laughs) . I think, f- in my head it's like-

Will Storr 49:20 No, it's true.

Steven Bartlett 49:21 You know what I mean?

Will Storr 49:21 And in the book, I write about this, th- this hilarious study where they figured out... Because in, in the, in the luxury goods game, the bigger the logo, the lower the status.

Steven Bartlett 49:29 Yes.

Will Storr 49:29 And they figured out that, that, that... I, I forget the exact measurements, but a certain amount of, um, logo space, um, you know, like half an inch, um, smaller meant, you know, $500 more on the, on the price. And the most expensive designer stuff has a logo on the inside. It has no logo on the outside. And so as I... A- a- an- and what that kind of speaks to is that, again, the whole world isn't one status game. There are kind of almost infinite status games and pe- people... A- and we're not particularly... We're not that interested in what people outside our like games think of, think of us. It's much more about what people who are playing the games with us think of us. And so, you know, in, in, in... My wife is the former editor of Elle magazine, so it's a, you know... It's, it's, it's... So I... You know, that fashion luxury world. Um, y- you know, pe- pe- people signal to each other. I will see a handbag, and it will just be invisible to me what that handbag means, what the meaning of that handbag is (laughs) .

Steven Bartlett 50:21 (laughs)

Will Storr 50:21 But the person, the owner of that handbag won't give the first fuck what I think about their handbag. They're interested in what it's, what, what... You know, that woman over there who knows about that handbag knows. And they'll know by the quality of the stitching, by a tiny little detail on the corner of that bag, that that is a really good bag. And that's what matters because that's, that's the game. They're playing a game with that person. They're not playing the game with me, so they don't care what I think.

Steven Bartlett 50:41 It's so t... You know, I have this very unproven, um, thought that just came to mind when you were saying about the size of the logo-

Will Storr 50:48 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 50:48 ... that when you're f- at the very (laughs) ... When it comes to luxury goods, at the very bottom of the status-

Will Storr 50:53 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 50:54 ... uh, uh, ladder, you want the biggest fucking logo possible.

Will Storr 50:57 Yes (laughs) .

Steven Bartlett 50:57 And you want it-

Will Storr 50:58 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 50:58 ... you want it all over the car, man.

Will Storr 51:00 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 51:00 And if you think about certain, like, you know-

Will Storr 51:01 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 51:01 ... people, you know, where they are in that s- in that status thing, they will have th- they will wear a tracksuit (laughs) -

Will Storr 51:06 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 51:06 ... of that logo. And then as you rise, financially or in status, you have... The, the logo, as you say, gets smaller, and then it disappears.

Will Storr 51:13 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 51:14 So at the... If you look at billionaires, they're not wearing... Jeff Bezos is not wearing-

Will Storr 51:19 No.

Steven Bartlett 51:19 ... a Louis Vuitton tracksuit (laughs) -

Will Storr 51:21 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 51:21 ... or a Burberry tracksuit.

Will Storr 51:21 AmazonBasics. Yeah (laughs) .

Steven Bartlett 51:22 Yeah (laughs) . He's... It's all plain-

Will Storr 51:24 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 51:24 ... with the billionaires. It's all very plain.

Will Storr 51:26 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 51:26 Um, they... They have the yacht.

Will Storr 51:27 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 51:27 They're playing that game.

Will Storr 51:28 Yeah. Yeah, they do.

Steven Bartlett 51:29 How, how many feet is the yacht, but-

Will Storr 51:31 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 51:31 ... super interesting. Makes me wonder, do, do we actually really care about these things? Do we actually really... Um, we... I s- I spend... We spend our lives telling ourselves that we want that Birkin bag.

Will Storr 51:44 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 51:44 We n- We really genuinely love the Lamborghini, but do we, do we actually like the Lamborghini, or we j- do we j- do we just like what it's signaling about us?

Will Storr 51:53 Well, I, I don't wanna over... I don't wanna over, um, kind of... I almost over-promised the story. Like, look, like, I think there's a danger where you can say, "Well, a Lamborghini is 100% status. There's nothing else." I, I think that's, that- that's not quite fair on Lamborghini. They're amazing machines. And y- I've never driven a Lamborghini, but I'm sure it's a fantastic experience. You know, I, I, y- y- you know, I've, I've driven sports cars a c- a couple of times, and it's been amazing. So, so it's not just status. Like, it is... It's incredible to have, like, a camera that takes amazing photographs. So, so, so you are, you are getting something extra for your money, but it's... But, but, but mostly I think what you're getting is, is status. Th- th- that, that's really mostly what you're getting. And it's worth it. I mean, I, that's the thing. I, I k- I, I don't want to fall into that trap of being condescending to status. It is a fundamental human need that we feel of value. And, you know, if we're playing a high level status game with lots of Lamborghini owners, it's really, really hard to feel of value in that group, so you gotta work really hard. Um, so that's why a brand new Lamborghini, for somebody playing that game, will feel as good as a, you know, as, as, as a dirt bike to somebody playing, you know, a game over there. Like, one might cost multiples more than the other, but it'll feel just as good because they're worried about... They're only really concerned about what the other people in their, th- their game are thinking. So, so, so yeah, we, we do care. And, and it's... It's a good thing because it's... That, you know, the book does talk a lot about the negatives of status pursuits, but it also talks a lot about the positives of status pursuits. I mean, civilization, technology, that, that's what you get, um, wh- when people want to pursue status. Wh- when somebody wants to become the best technologist, the best vaccine designer, the best, um, e- um, you know, the best charity. We wanna save the most lives. That's humans at their best. And that's also status pursuit. But it's good. It's positive.

Steven Bartlett 53:45 What is the toxic downside of being addicted to status though? And, and, and my sub-question to that, is there... Is insecurity and sort of a lack of self-worth a predictor of being addicted to status games?

Will Storr 54:02 Being human is a predictor of being addicted to status games. We're all addicted to status games. And-

Steven Bartlett 54:06 Do you not think people that were bullied and that didn't... That were, that were low, that were low status in childhood, in some context-

Will Storr 54:12 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:13 ... are those that then seek status most as adults?

Will Storr 54:16 Um, maybe, but I, I... Again, I, I... Again, I, I do think that personality comes a lot into play. Um, uh, like, like anything, some people are more interested in status than other people.

Steven Bartlett 54:26 Mm.

Will Storr 54:26 Like Elon Musk is obviously incredibly interested in his own relative status, and that's a big driver for him. Um, uh, Jeff Bezos, you know, Beyonce, you know, the- these people, um, uh, are in... Are, are, are very highly attuned to the status game, and that's what pushes them, pushes them, pushes them to work harder than I will ever work. Um, um, s- s- so I don't, I don't necessarily think it's about, um, low self-worth. It might... It, it's probably to do with, um, genetic things like extroversion, u- agreeableness, which is a personality, um, uh, component. If you're low in agreeableness, you're competitive. It's that kind of type A personality. So, so, so there's definitely a genetic component.... to it, uh, definitely. But there's also, you know, cl- class comes into it, uh, people, uh, on the lower socioeconomic groups have much less access to status games. So, s- so, you know, I think that's why, you know, if you were working... If you're, if you're a poor guy raised in a housing estate in Stockwell, and your only, the only available status games to you are Tesco's Bakery and this gang over here, I know what I'm joining-

Steven Bartlett 55:37 Mm-hmm.

Will Storr 55:37 You know? You- y- it's changed the way that I see some of those issues that- that, you know, we are, we are programmed to... We are programmed to crave connection and status, and we will find connection and status wherever we can. And so I th- and so I, you know, I think that explains, you know, when people are joining gangs, it's not because they're naughty, it's not because they're bad people, it's because they're just doing what they're designed to do where they're in an environment where there aren't many status games to play. There's just not a lot of options.

Steven Bartlett 56:05 It's interesting because when I w- I think, think of some of my friends that I, that I believe in my own, you know, ill-informed observation are addicted to status, they, the ones that are really addicted to status, the ones that are really pursuing it, are actually pursuing it at the cost of connection.

Will Storr 56:20 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 56:22 And, and what I mean by that is my, my richest, most successful friend that I have, that lives in a massive mansion in the middle of nowhere because that's the place that he could buy the biggest house and has all the sports cars, um, is, is also the loneliest.

Will Storr 56:35 Yeah. That's, that's a really good observation. I mean, status and c- and connection, they're separate things. So it, so we, we, we crave by, you know, nature, both of them, you know. Um, we, people are... tend to be happier when they're more connected. But status is a separate thing. And, and I think that's right. I think that's absolutely correct. Some people's, that people's dials are set. I th- I consider myself somebody who is relatively high in need for status, which is why I ended up writing books for a living. Uh, but I'm relatively low in the need for connection. I don't really have much of a social life. I don't really want one. You know, I'm not bothered particularly. Um, so, so, you know, everybody's dials are set in different ways. Some people have relatively low need for status and then relatively high need for connection, and they're surrounded by friends and they're probably happier than I am. I, I'm sure they're happier than I am.

Steven Bartlett 57:19 Is there instances

Steven Bartlett 57:20 where we can be too consumed with status and that can cause us to have, um, adverse personal consequences?

Will Storr 57:29 Um, yeah. I suppose... Okay, so in the book, I write that there are kind of three general types of status games that we can play. The first game is a dominance game. And so the dominance game, we share with animals, we've been playing dominance games for millions of years, and they are what they sound like they are. They're about aggression, but also the threat of aggression, um, bullying, you know, that kind of thing. It, it, when, whenever we force somebody else to attend to us in status, that's dominance. Um, there's success games, which is, I think, the best of human nature. Um, competence. So when, when you're, when you're thinking about how do we become a valued member of our tribe, um, back in the days when our brains were evolving, we could be the best honey finder, the best storyteller, the best hunter, best finder of tubers. So that's how you were of value to your tribe, competence or being good at something. But there's also virtue. Um, i- um, you know, we, we, we can play virtue games. And so in the tribe, that means that you know the rules of the tribe, you enforce the rules of the tribe, you know the rituals, you believe in the spiritual stories. Um, so virtue isn't just about being selfless and kind and loving to the, your, your tribal members, it's also about being an enforcer. And I think, you know, there's no such thing as a pure game. That's the other thing to kind of point out. Like a, like, like you can, you can see, um, a boxing match is a dominance game. It's pretty clearly a dominance game. But it's also got a virtue element to it. There's some rules in boxing. You can't go and just go kick them in the groin. You know, like, there has to be some virtue in there too. So you call that a dominance virtue game. And I think the, I think the worst games, I th- I think the, the games that are most destructive are what I call virtue dominance games. So a virtue dominance game is one in which I, I, I'm raising status by enforcing rule, b- by following rules and knowing the mor- the moral rules. The dominance, um, uh, component is, "I'm going to force you to do it." So, s- so, y- you know, that's what you see on social media a lot. Those, you know, cancel culture mobs, people attacking each other for believing the wrong things, that's a virtue dominance game. Um, at their very worst, a virtue dominance game... You know, in the book I write about the rise of the Nazis, I write about, th- the fin- the final chapter which kind of brings the whole thing together is, uh, the story of the rise of the communists in the Soviet Union, uh, from the perspective of status. And, and, you know, that, that's also a virtue dominance game. They're not interested in competence (laughs) in, in, in success, they're interested in, "You're gonna believe this, and if you don't, we're gonna punish you."

Steven Bartlett 59:53 Yeah, there's a lot of that going on at the moment.

Will Storr 59:55 There's a lot of that going on at the moment.

Steven Bartlett 59:56 There is.

Will Storr 59:57 And I, and I think a lot of it is because, um, you know, t- trying, trying to be kind of open-hearted about it, I, I wrote about this in Selfie and, and I wrote in, in, in The Status Game, is that since the global financial crisis, life has got harder, especially for young people. Success sc- you know, like it's hard to get on the property ladder, uh, people are leaving university with student debt, there's massive underemployment for graduates. We've got what they call elite overproduction. We've been producing too many smart, educated people for the roles to fit in. It's, it's, i- i- y- y- you know. A- a- and we're now entering a new recession, apparently. So, i- so life is much harder for Millennials and Gen Zs than it was for Boomers and Gen Xers. So success games are harder to play. So what you're s- I think what you're seeing is online, people, people get status wherever they can, so they, they start playing virtue games instead.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:47 One of the alarming things you talk about in this book is that, um, status... Did I say that right?

Will Storr 1:00:52 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:52 Yeah, that's the English way. I needed to... 'Cause obviously-

Will Storr 1:00:54 (laughs) It's fine. You're not American. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:00:55 (laughs) "And, and that will harm my status with people."

Will Storr 1:00:58 (laughs) Exactly.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:59 Attack me in the comments section.

Will Storr 1:01:00 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:01:01 Um,

Steven Bartlett 1:01:02 this idea that status games actually have an impact on our health and mortality-

Will Storr 1:01:06 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:06 ... that we will die younger if we have lower status.

Will Storr 1:01:10 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:11 What evidence have you, have you got, have you f- g- got or found to support this idea?

Will Storr 1:01:15 Well, there's lots of evidence. Um, there, there's a big- a lot of it comes from this guy called Dr. Michael Marmot, who is just- did this incredible set of work, which he calls the Whitehall Studies. So obviously, Whitehall is the bureaucracy that kind of runs- that, that kind of takes the or- you know, the, the civil service that kind of works for the government. So it's an enormous organization. It's highly stratified. And so Marmot, um, uh, looked at, um, kind of health outcomes for people on different levels of that kind of hierarchy, that status game, and found that the, the, the, the, the, the, the lower you went down that status game, the worse health outcomes became. So the obvious thing is, oh, that's just because if you're being paid less, you maybe can't afford the personal trainer-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:56 Mm-hmm.

Will Storr 1:01:56 ... you, you know, you're eating worse. But it wasn't that- that wasn't the case at all. Literally, one rung down below the very top, so sort of very, very wealthy, successful, high-status people, had worse health outcomes than the person at the very top. Um, so, so, so it really did seem like, um, the brain is highly attuned to where we sit in a pecking order. And th- the lower, the lower we are down in that pecking order, the more unhealthy we became. Another set of scientists looked at this in a, in a laboratory. So they took a bunch of monkeys, um, uh, uh, who, um, obviously like us, very hierarchical. They play status games. And, um, they deliberately fed... It's a terrible experiment. It's very un- (laughs) It's pretty awful. But they deliberately fed them a terrible diet of, like, fast food, like chocolate and crisps, so they, so, so they ended up having a high level of atherosclerotic plaque, which is, you know, so they're, they, they were getting clogged up basically, you know, and vulnerable to heart problems and so on. And they found that it was the same, that the lower you went down the monkey pecking order, the more likely the monkeys were to die of these heart-related diseases because of their bad diets than the ones at the top. And then importantly, they, um, conspired to change the hierarchy of the group. I don't know how they did it, but they changed, maybe they took out the top monkey, but they changed the hierarchy of the group. And, um, they found that the health outcomes changed in lockstep with the change in hierarchy. So if a monkey went up, they became less likely to die. And so, so, so then you might ask, "Well, this is crazy. Like, why is this?" And so, so the closest answer that scientists have come, there's a whole field called social genomics. It's a new field. And social genomics is all about, how does our social world affect the function of our genes? So you know, we're social animals. We- our brains are constantly monitoring how we're doing in the world. What are our levels of connection? What are our levels of status? We have this status detection system that's constantly monitoring our level of status. And so, so, so the idea is, uh, that, uh, when the brain, um, registers that we, we, we are, you know, dropping in status, or we're not too high in status, uh, it prepares ourselves. It changes the way our, our, our genes work and our, and the actions of our cells change in such a way, um, that it kind of prepares us for kind of trouble. Um, so inflammation goes up, uh, anti-viral response goes down. Um, and so, so the body changes in such a way that we become more ill.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:15 There's a really, um, (laughs) a narrative in there which some might deduce from hearing all of that, which is that your level of success relates to your health. And this, I'm gonna say it in a really gruesome way, which is, the more successful you are, um, the longer y- you'll live. O- obviously there's loads of factors at play.

Will Storr 1:04:40 Yes. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:40 You know, if you're eating burgers and smoking-

Will Storr 1:04:42 (laughs) Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:42 ... and doing Class A drugs, you're, that's gonna probably be a, a stronger sort of determinant in your outcomes.

Will Storr 1:04:47 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:48 But, but generally speaking, if two people are eating the exact same thing, if they're living the exact same lifestyle in terms of what they're consuming and the way that they're living, and the only variable is their level of success in a status game-

Will Storr 1:05:00 Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:01 ... then they will be...

Will Storr 1:05:02 They're less likely to die if they're higher up.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:04 Yeah.

Will Storr 1:05:04 Yeah, that's true. Yeah. But, but there's-

Steven Bartlett 1:05:06 Quite, quite alarming, isn't it?

Will Storr 1:05:07 As you said, there's so many confounds.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:08 Yeah.

Will Storr 1:05:08 I mean, life is much more complicated than that. There's, there's al- there's always other- you know, it, it is true that people ha- you know, smoke and don't smoke and, and so on. But, but, but, but you know, what Marmot finds is that, is that if you take two smokers, the one higher up is less, is less likely to die of a smoking-related disease than the o- than the one lower down.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:24 In the status.

Will Storr 1:05:25 In the status game, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:26 Ladder or whatever.

Will Storr 1:05:26 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:27 Interesting.

Will Storr 1:05:28 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:28 Um, one of the other things that I, I wrote down reading that book was, workers at the bottom of the office hierarchy have, at ages 40 to 64, four times the risk of death of their, I guess administrators means managers?

Will Storr 1:05:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:41 At the top of the hierarchy.

Will Storr 1:05:43 Yeah. That's from the Whitehall Studies. Yeah, that's part of what Dr. Michael Marmot said.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:46 That's mental.

Will Storr 1:05:47 Yeah, it's crazy. So, so they're really significant. It's not marginal. They're, you know, when you, when you, uh, it'll be marginal from one layer to the next, but when you actually look at the whole game, it's very significant the, the differences, the health outcomes from the top and bottom.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:59 It's absolutely mental. I've never really considered that idea before, that s- status is playing such a significant role in my-

Will Storr 1:06:06 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:07 ... biological si- situation.

Will Storr 1:06:09 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:10 Um...

Will Storr 1:06:10 The same is true for connection, for- so when we're lonely, the same thing happens, the lonelier we are. When we lack status, the same thing ha- uh, we know, we, we have, our, uh, inflammation goes up, anti-viral response goes down, which is bad for us in the long term. And it's the same with, uh, the social genomics people say it's the same with loneliness, which is why loneliness is bad for our health too.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:31 The other thing that I found particularly interesting was that, um, when we lose our status, the consequences of that can be pretty morbid.

Will Storr 1:06:37 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:37 And that suicide is often the result of people losing status and the speed in which they lose their status.

Will Storr 1:06:44 Yeah. Yeah. So, so this is why I never believed the Jeffrey Epstein conspiracy theories. I think he did kill himself because he's just had this huge, um, drop in status. It just makes him incredibly vulnerable to suicidal thought and ideation. So, so yeah, so it's not just drops in status. It's especially sudden drops in status makes us very vulnerable. Um, and, and also, I found, it was interesting, the research says it's, it's also being left behind. So if we, if we stay still...... and everybody else is, every- everybody around us accelerates, that, that's, that also makes us vulnerable to, uh, potential, you know, anxiety, depression, and potentially suicidal ideation.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:21 That in particular is quite as, um, an alarming thought, that if you're in a group of five friends-

Will Storr 1:07:26 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:26 ... best friends, and four of the best friends do really, really well, professionally, in, in their careers, whatever, just because of the context in which you, you, you're existing, you might become depressed-

Will Storr 1:07:38 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:38 ... because your four friends did well.

Will Storr 1:07:39 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:40 And this, this, in some respects, might explain jealousy.

Will Storr 1:07:43 Of course it does, yeah. I mean that, I mean, you know, we, we, we, we've evolved to, um, want to feel of value, but unfortunately, being of value is kind of relative. Like, if everybody is equally valued, then nobody's valued. Do, do you know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 1:08:00 Mm-hmm.

Will Storr 1:08:00 We're all on the same level. So you, it's, that... I, I think that's when it, it can become quite damaging. Uh, yeah, and, and that's where it can, life can become quite exhausting, especially in this kind of highly, um, competitive neoliberal world that we live in, where everybody's pushing, pushing, pushing to succeed, push- pushing to succeed. Y- you know, it's true, you know, I hate, you, you... W- we hate it when our friends become successful. Parts of us are always going to, because it kind of devalues what, you know, what we have. Uh, uh, you know, it's just, um, an unfortunate byproduct of the, of the status game.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:34 You talk about how we look up to people who are like us.

Will Storr 1:08:39 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:39 But we also seem to be more jealous of people that are like us.

Will Storr 1:08:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:43 Because they, because they are the, the clearest evidence of our own inadequacy.

Will Storr 1:08:47 Yeah. It's the, the, that was a really sort of, um, um, kind of knotty para- paradox for me to get my head around when I was writing the book. A- and the closest solution I could come to it was... So when you look at, um, how, h- the func- h- how, how humans, social groups work, um, there's, there's a really amazing researcher in America called Joseph Henrich who studies this stuff and has written about, a couple of books about this. And, a- and, and he talks about how, how we learn. And so, so in, in those, again, those groups in which we evolve, which we sort of look to to figure out why we are like we are, what you'll find is that, is, is that, is that when you were growing up, p- you know, young people look, they identify high-status people from which to learn. And those high-status people, um, are gonna be like them in some way. They're probably gonna be the same gender, and they're gonna have the same kind of interests, and, you know, that kind of thing. And, and so that, so, so this mechanism switches on, which is copy-flatter conform. So you start copying their behavior because the brain goes, "Well, this person's high status. I wanna become high status." Um, so, so if I wanna become high status, of course, I've got, oh, I've gotta do everything that they're doing. So if I do everything that they're doing, I'll, you know, it'll work. So it switches on. S- uh, and then we've got the flatter process, which is, "I, I need access to this person. I wanna be around this person to be able to learn everything that they're doing." And you do that with fl- you know, flattery is a good way of doing that. It's like, um, you know, "Oh, you're amazing. I love this. What a great book, what a great podcast, your amazing businesses." And then, you know, so, so, so, we'll let people in who treat us that way and conform. You, you do what, you do what you do what you're told, you behave. And s- and so, and so, you know, you can, you can, you can think about that when you think about celebrities. You know, like I, I, I remember when I was seven or eight years old, I was obsessed with this guy called, this guy Nick Kershaw. And I remember seeing him on TV-am, and he was crossing his legs in a certain way with his ankle on his knee and his leg sticking out. And I just found myself