The Orgasm Expert: THIS Is How Often You Should Be Having Sex & Stop Inviting Pets Into The Bedroom!

1. 0:00 – 2:43

   Intro

   1. GUGuest0:00

      Everyone wants more sex, better sex, and there is a huge amount that we can do that can guarantee great sex for the rest of your life. So, the best place to start is... Dr. Karen Gurney. She is a clinical psychologist... And psychosexologist.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:14

      That has been helping individuals and couples overcome sexual problems... For 20 years. She's the lead psychologist in an award-winning NHS sex clinic.

   3. GUGuest0:22

      This might be surprising to some people, 52% of women and 42% of men are unhappy with the sex lives that they have, and that's because as a society we've got sex all wrong. For example, the way desire is represented to us is lust, passion, spontaneity, but it's not the norm. And the problem is a lot of people are waiting to feel like that, and they're waiting a really long time. What we need to do instead is be aware that our desire can be triggered using what I call sexual currency. I'll go into that. We also know that penis and vagina sex is women's least favorite sexual act, but that's how we see how sex should be, so we see less pleasure and less reward for women. But also, if you ask most people how often they should be having sex, everyone says three times a week. It's actually drastically different than that, three times a month, and that shows the way we understand sex is all wrong.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett1:14

      So, I have questions. Do you think you should schedule sex?

   5. GUGuest1:17

      No. What you should do though is...

   6. SBSteven Bartlett1:20

      Fantasies, fetishes. What if your partner says, "I don't like it"?

   7. GUGuest1:23

      Well, I can talk you through that if you'd like.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:24

      Parents who are struggling with sex, what should they do?

   9. GUGuest1:28

      We know that people start having sex again from when their kid is about six, and that's because...

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:33

       What if you're in a relationship right now and you no longer found them attractive, what do I say?

   11. GUGuest1:37

       I would say...

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:40

       It's absolutely crazy to me that so many of you have decided to watch our show, um, and so many of you have decided to subscribe to our show. We now have five million subscribers on YouTube, which is a number that I just can't comprehend, and it's a dream that I absolutely never could have had. We started the Diary of a CEO just over three years ago now, and in my wildest expectations, we might have had 100,000 subscribers by now. So you can imagine how shocked I am that so many of you have chosen to tune into these conversations every week, um, and spend some time with us. So, thank you. And I made a deal with you, I made a deal that if you subscribe to this show that we would continue to raise the bar. And in 2024, we're gonna raise the bar like never before. I've been working for the last nine months on a surprise for all of you that have subscribed to this show, and I'm very excited to deliver that for you. The production's gonna change. We're gonna go even further with our guests, and we're gonna tell even more global stories. So as always, if you appreciate what we're doing here, the simple free favor I'll ask from you is to hit the subscribe button. Let's get on with the

2. 2:43 – 4:32

   What Do You Do and Why Do You Do It?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:43

      episode. Dr. Karen Gurney.

   2. GUGuest2:52

      Hi.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett2:54

      What do you do and why do you do it?

   4. GUGuest2:56

      I spend my working week trying to change people's relationships with sex, and the reason I do that is because although we might think that sex is a kind of frivolous recreational pursuit, it actually isn't. It's super important for our psychological well-being, for our relationship well-being. We know that when people have great sex, their relationships last longer. We know that when people have great sex, they're even more productive in work the next day. There are so many reasons why sex is important, but unfortunately as a society, we've kind of got it all wrong about how sex works, about what we should be doing. And because of that, we have hugely high rates of dissatisfaction with people's sex lives in the UK, but also worldwide.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett3:43

      Why did sex take your fancy?

   6. GUGuest3:45

      There's so much about sex that's fascinating, I think. There's loads we don't know. Um, there's loads we do know, but no one talks about. People find it so hard to talk about sex, and it's so stigmatized that, you know, when people come into the room, you can really see the weight of it on their shoulders. It's hard for them to speak about, it's embarrassing for them, and to be the person that makes that feel comfortable and to be the person that can create change in a part of their life that matters so much, but is perhaps something they've never told their closest friend about, is hugely rewarding. You also get to work with people across all ages, so, you know, from their teens to their 90s. You get to work with couples, individuals. Um, you get everything with sex therapy. I love

3. 4:32 – 10:33

   Our Attention Is Being Hijacked Which Is Affecting Our Sex Lives

   1. GUGuest4:32

      it.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett4:32

      Since you started your work, what was it, almost, what, 20 years ago, did you say?

   3. GUGuest4:35

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett4:35

      20. What have you seen in terms of changes in the problem set-

   5. GUGuest4:42

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett4:43

      ... that you're dealing with now, i.e. what are the new problems that you're, you're confronted with in your clinical practice when couples or people come to you?

   7. GUGuest4:51

      Yeah, that's a good one because lots of things have stayed the same, right? So, we, we, we know that, for example, problems with desire remain the most common reason why people end up in my clinical room. Um, but lots of things have also shifted. Data actually shows those shifts over the last few decades. So we have long-term, um, data into the lives of, um, people in the UK in terms of their sex lives, and we know that we're having less sex this decade than we were the decade before and the decade before that. So, the amount of sex we're having, for example, is going down. From my clinical hunches but also from what's been written about in the research, we have a good idea that that's about our pace of life, our work-life balance, our distractibility, our use of devices. Um, it's become evident in the last kind of two decades that when it comes to sex, attention is a really key part of it. It's really key. So being able to pay attention to what's happening in your body or being able to pay attention to what's happening in your mind is crucial. But as a society, I think we're getting less and less able to pay attention. We're getting more and more in pursuit of distraction. ... and that shows itself all the time in sex therapy, you know, couples who come to see me because they feel that they're never having sex. But yet when you look at their week, they actually have very little time together, and the time together they do have, they're both busy scrolling, they're watching Netflix and scrolling, they're perhaps doing three things at once. They're checking their work emails. That's taking them to a whole new cognitive place of stress. And so it's no wonder that people don't have space for their desire to emerge, and that's definitely a newer phenomenon.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett6:34

      It kinda made me think of s- some of the things I was reading about in your books, where you, you say that couples and individuals who do mindfulness practices, um, are those that typically have the most desire. The... I think the quote is from your newest book, which is... the book is called How Not to Let Having Kids Ruin Your Sex Life.

   9. GUGuest6:53

      Yeah, it's a bit of a mouthful.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett6:54

       It's a, it's a great...

   11. GUGuest6:55

       (laughs)

   12. SBSteven Bartlett6:55

       ... great title.

   13. GUGuest6:56

       (laughs)

   14. SBSteven Bartlett6:57

       It says, "Research tells us that women who find it easier to have orgasms are typically more mindful in everyday life and find it easier to be in the moment during sex."

   15. GUGuest7:06

       That's right.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett7:07

       Which is chapter three.

   17. GUGuest7:07

       That's right. So there's an enormous amount of data about attention and sex, and obviously one of the ways in which we can sharpen our attention is mindfulness. We know that mindfulness works across a range of challenges that we face, whether it's pain management, whether it's sleep, whether it's about appetite regulation, all kinds of things. But when it comes to sex, it's super powerful. So when you're distracted during sex, um, and we know that over 90% of people have non-sexual thoughts during sex. Okay? So everyone gets distracted. We know that from the research. But what happens when we start to get distracted most of the time, or when those distractions are what we call cognitively salient, which means they're worrying or they're particularly stressful, like, "Oh, I'm not gonna come," or, "What if I don't stay hard?" or, "Is she enjoying this?" Those types of distractions. What happens is our distraction is basically turning down our arousal, like turning down the volume on the TV, so it becomes harder for our bodies to respond, so to stay aroused, for example. It becomes harder for us to feel anything, so our pleasure is turned down. It becomes harder for us to come and, ultimately, over time, it gets in the way of our desire. On the contrary, if we work on that distraction, either by trying to remove them or trying to tackle the worries at their root cause, or trying to promote our ability to pay attention where we want it to be, so that's sexual thoughts, sexual sensations, pleasure, then it's like turning up the volume. And we've seen plenty of research that demonstrates the enormously powerful impact of mindfulness on sexual response.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett8:49

       I can think of times in my life where because I was stressed or worried when I got in bed, I was worrying about something or-

   19. GUGuest8:56

       Mm-hmm.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett8:56

       ... stressing about something at work.

   21. GUGuest8:58

       Yeah.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett8:58

       My partner tried to have sex with me and I had zero chance of getting aroused.

   23. GUGuest9:02

       Yeah.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett9:03

       I could not get an erection. And it's... if... I remember those moments and thinking, "Oh, 'cause she's gonna think that it's about her, but really it's because of this thing I have on my to-do list," which-

   25. GUGuest9:10

       That's exactly right.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett9:11

       ... I'd, I'd got in bed doing my to-do list, so I, I, like... I was holding my to-do list and I was doing it on my phone-

   27. GUGuest9:17

       Mm-hmm.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett9:17

       ... and I put the phone down, and then I lay back, and I'm still thinking about my to-do list-

   29. GUGuest9:22

       Mm-hmm.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett9:23

       ... and then she tries to initiate, and there's zero chance.
4. 10:33 – 12:26

   Why Does Sex Get Harder the More We Think About It

   1. GUGuest10:33

      now.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett10:33

      Do you think there's a bit of a, a paradox with sex in the sense that the more you think about it-

   3. GUGuest10:39

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett10:40

      ... and worry about it, the harder it becomes?

   5. GUGuest10:43

      Yes, absolutely.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett10:44

      So what do you do? Just not think about it and worry about... is this like...

   7. GUGuest10:47

      So it's quite interesting because there's also something else that happens when we get turned on, which is that we get this attentional focused narrowing. So one of the features of physiological arousal, so when blood flows around the body, particularly to the genitals, is that we know it kind of sharpens our attention. It makes us basically want to block out the rest of the world. And I'm sure we've all had experiences when we've been completely in the moment during sex, when we've not thought about a single other thing that might be happening around us. So that attentional narrowing is great unless your attention has been hijacked by a worry, because then you get attentional narrowing on the worry. And what happens when we worry about something is that it interferes with sexual response in two main ways. The first is that it takes our attention away from what's erotic-

   8. SBSteven Bartlett11:40

      Mm-hmm.

   9. GUGuest11:40

      ... and that turns down the arousal and pleasure-

   10. SBSteven Bartlett11:42

       Okay. Yeah.

   11. GUGuest11:42

       ... like we talked about earlier on the TV. And the second thing that happens is that when we worry about something, that activates our sympathetic nervous system, sending chemical messengers around the body saying, "Don't have sex. There's something to worry about."

   12. SBSteven Bartlett11:56

       Mm-hmm.

   13. GUGuest11:56

       You know, it can't tell the difference between a modern-day worry like, "This email has come through that's ruined my day," versus, you know, "A saber-toothed tiger has just walked in." You know, our brains are still primitive in that regard. So what happens is that switches off.... our sexual response. It might mean that e- you struggle to get turned on, it might mean that you struggle to feel anything, it might mean that your body doesn't work in the way you want it to. And then, of course, the next time you go into it, what are you thinking? You're thinking, "What if it doesn't work?"

5. 12:26 – 16:32

   Why Expectations and Pressure Make Sex Worse

   1. GUGuest12:26

   2. SBSteven Bartlett12:27

      You talk a lot about expectations-

   3. GUGuest12:28

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett12:29

      ... um, and the role that they play in sex. "Expectation and pressure make sex worse." That's a quote from your new book, chapter three. I know, maybe that's not a quote, but that's basically the gist of what it said.

   5. GUGuest12:40

      (laughs)

   6. SBSteven Bartlett12:40

      Um, but it's also the gist- gist of my experience, I think. It's always felt to me like the opposite of great sex is expectation and, like-

   7. GUGuest12:49

      Mm-hmm.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett12:49

      ... rigidity.

   9. GUGuest12:49

      Yes.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett12:50

       And great sex, for me, is som- sometimes spontaneous-

   11. GUGuest12:53

       Mm-hmm.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett12:53

       ... but it's carefree.

   13. GUGuest12:55

       Yes.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett12:56

       And it's worry-free.

   15. GUGuest12:57

       Yeah. Yeah, I mean, pressure is a total passion killer.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett13:01

       But the pressure... It's like, that's, again, the- the, kind of, compounding paradox because the more there's a problem with our sex, the more it becomes a focal point in our relationship.

   17. GUGuest13:09

       Yes.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett13:09

       The more pressure, the more expectation. Every night you go to bed, you're thinking... You know, I've had moments in past lives and past relationships where, because the sex wasn't great, I would feel nervous going to bed because it was gonna be-

   19. GUGuest13:21

       Mm-hmm.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett13:21

       ... one of those moments where we, kind of, both are sat there thinking about it, but we're not saying anything to each other. And then if I fall asleep, I'm gonna disappoint them, but-

   21. GUGuest13:28

       Mm-hmm.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett13:29

       ... if I try, it's gonna go badly, so-

   23. GUGuest13:31

       Yes.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett13:31

       ... what the hell do I do?

   25. GUGuest13:32

       Yes. Pressure, um, is not good for our sex lives and one of the challenges with pressure is that when you think about initiation, it's often very much bound up in pressure and perhaps we'll talk about initiation in a second. But actually, the foundation of those problems with expectation and pressure is not being able to talk about it.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett13:50

       Mm-hmm.

   27. GUGuest13:51

       'Cause if you think about it, what we really want to say is, "I'm feeling quite stressed about the sex situation." And the fact that we don't talk about it means that those things are hanging between us. And we know with sex that one of the fascinating things about it is, like other ways in which we learn, we learn about sex by what we witness in the media and what we pick up from social learning, something psychologists call social learning theory. When it comes to sex, we don't witness how anyone else is doing it, really. We only see what happens on TV and what happens in porn and maybe hear from our friends, but we don't really know if they're telling the truth or not. So, what that means is, with all the-

   28. SBSteven Bartlett14:36

       My guy friends all lie about it. (laughs)

   29. GUGuest14:37

       (laughs) Yeah, everyone does.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett14:38

       They're all stallions and that... No, I'm joking.
6. 16:32 – 17:46

   Our Society Has Created a "Sexual Script" That's Wrong

   1. GUGuest16:32

   2. SBSteven Bartlett16:32

      For exa- one of the examples you give in your book is about orgasms-

   3. GUGuest16:36

      Yes.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett16:36

      ... and pornography giving us a sexual script that men are basically meant, in a heterosexual relationship, men are meant to orgasm. And that, there was some crazy stat from some Pornhub research.

   5. GUGuest16:47

      Yes. Yeah, that's really interesting research. There was some research that talked about depictions of female pleasure and pleasure-inducing acts for women from the 100 most popular videos on Pornhub, and they found that, um, women's pleasure was shown in about 18% of those top 100 videos, and men's pleasure or acts that produce pleasure for men, mainly around penis-in-vagina sex 'cause that's men's most favorite sexual act, it's women's least favorite sexual act, that was depicted in about 78% of cases. So, it's quite interesting then when you think about the fact that we're learning from what we see, because what does that then tell us about what sex should look like, about when sex ends, about whose pleasure is prioritized? And it's one of the reasons that we have an orgasm gap when men and women have sex together because that's how we learn about sex.

7. 17:46 – 23:45

   How to Talk About Sex with Your Partner

   1. GUGuest17:46

   2. SBSteven Bartlett17:46

      On that, I just wanna pick up on two things you said there that were really interesting to me. The first one was about us not talking-

   3. GUGuest17:52

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett17:53

      ... why we don't talk. Um, it's very difficult to talk about sex with your partner.

   5. GUGuest17:57

      Very.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett17:58

      Very difficult. I've been there. Very difficult, because the plethora of reasons why you might not be functioning well or enjoying it can often sound like you're blaming them.

   7. GUGuest18:09

      Mm-hmm. Communication is so important. We know that...Being able to talk about sex is one of the most highly correlated factors with long-term sexual satisfaction and relationship satisfaction, and maintaining desire over time. It's more important than the amount you have sex, liking the same thing sexually. It's so important but it's so hard to do. And we know why it's hard, right? It's because we're not socialized to talk about it, we're not often given the words that feel comfortable, we are out of practice getting those words out of our mouth, so they feel kind of clumsy and awkward. There's a lot of worry and risk involved, "What if I say this and they don't like it?" And because of that, it's easier to avoid. But the most fascinating thing about sex, I think, is that it's constantly evolving for us. So you and I, we're not the same people sexually than we were when we were 15, 16, and we won't be the same sexual people in another 10, 15 years than we are now. So we need to be able to have the ability for growth, right? Growth and flex in our sexual relationships. But how do you do that if you can't talk about it? It's a bit like going to the hairdresser's, the same hairdresser's for the rest of your life, and every time you sit down, not saying anything, and just hoping that they'll give you the haircut that you want. You wouldn't do it, right?

   8. SBSteven Bartlett19:35

      And they continually give you the bad-

   9. GUGuest19:36

      Yeah.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett19:36

       ... even one, and you just keep coming back.

   11. GUGuest19:38

       And you say, "Thanks," and you tip them, and you go.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett19:40

       Mm-hmm.

   13. GUGuest19:41

       So we need to get better at talking about it, and it's not easy. It's easy for me, I talk about it all day every day-

   14. SBSteven Bartlett19:47

       Yeah.

   15. GUGuest19:47

       ... but I know that that's not the norm. And part of the work that I do is try and help people, try and give people the scaffold to talk about it. And I can talk you through that if you like?

   16. SBSteven Bartlett19:57

       Mm-hmm. Please.

   17. GUGuest19:58

       So it might be that the best place to start is to find out how people find talking about challenging topics anyway with their partner. So if you can't talk about other things outside of sex without it going into an argument, then it might be worth just looking at communication full stop. Forget sex for the moment, just talk about that.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett20:17

       Are you creating some, like, rules of engagement for how we communicate?

   19. GUGuest20:20

       Yeah.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett20:20

       You listen, I express myself.

   21. GUGuest20:21

       Absolutely.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett20:22

       Okay.

   23. GUGuest20:22

       And I always recommend the Gottmans.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett20:24

       Yeah.

   25. GUGuest20:24

       I don't know if you know their work?

   26. SBSteven Bartlett20:25

       Yeah, I do, yeah.

   27. GUGuest20:26

       Um, I recommend them 'cause they have some great resources around general communication. It's important to have a good basis if you're gonna talk about sex. But if people can talk about other things, and they find it relatively easy to hear each other and to share their kind of hopes and fears, then it might be useful to start to create a culture where talking about sex becomes the norm. This is always the place you want to end up, right? We all want to end up with a relationship culture that supports easy communication about sex. That's the guaranteed route to sexual satisfaction. And to do that, we have to make it something that we do frequently without any pressure, without any expectation that something big has to change. So an early way to start that might be, for example, to bring in some novelty in your communications about sex. So people might be listening to this podcast and they might say, "Oh, how was your day today?" "Great." "Oh, I heard this thing on Diary of a CEO podcast, and it was about depictions of pleasure in porn, and I thought it was really interesting. And it occurred to me, we don't talk about porn much, you know? Is that something you'd be open to talk about? Whether you watch it, whether you like it, what you like." That might feel too much for some people and it might be, "I heard a podcast about sex, and it talked about the importance of talking, and I thought, we don't do that much." So there's ways of bringing it in which are saying, "Look, this, I think would be good for us." The key point is stating the impact that you think it will have. "So I would like to talk more about this because I heard it means you can guarantee great sex for the rest of your life. So I think that would be good for us. You know, I'm committed to this relationship, I want our sex to stay great. This might be awkward for us, but can we do it?" So the starting point, if you're nervous, is always to talk about things outside of your sexual relationship, things you've heard on podcasts, films you saw with good sex scenes in them. Bring things in rather than talking about the two of you. After that, if you get good at that, it might be worthwhile talking about your own sex when it goes well. So a good time to do this is after sex that's gone well, or at another time when you're feeling really emotionally connected, maybe you're out for dinner, maybe you're having a weekend away, and talk about what you really liked and why.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett22:45

       Okay. So don't talk about it when it's bad?

   29. GUGuest22:47

       No, no, not at this stage. Not at this stage. If you feel confident with that and you get into a habit of talking about sex, talking about what's gone well, talking about sex as if it's any other topic of conversation, like business or exercise or diet, then you might want to start to talk about things you'd like to be different. And in an ideal world, I try and encourage couples to have a kind of regular practice of this. So if you think about your goals for your exercise, your work, your diet, often, you'll set yourself goals, right? And you might tell your partner about them, you know, "In six months from now, I wanna do this," or, "This year, I'm working on this." It's quite good to get into the habit of saying, "Where do we want our sex life to go? How would we like things to be? What do we want to continue? What do we want more of? And what do we want less of?" And that's a really positive conversation. You don't need to talk about what you don't like. You're talking about what you want

8. 23:45 – 26:32

   How to Tell Your Partner You're Not Attracted to Them Anymore

   1. GUGuest23:45

      more of instead.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett23:46

      What if the issue in your sexual relationship is one of attraction? And I've asked a few guests this because I think it's one of the, the hardest challenges to overcome.

   3. GUGuest23:58

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett23:58

      And I don't know, in a clinical setting, what you would say if you're sat there with an individual and they're telling you that the reason they aren't having sex with Dave right now-

   5. GUGuest24:07

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett24:07

      ... is because they're no longer attracted to them.

   7. GUGuest24:09

      Mm-hmm.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett24:09

      What, what is their path forward there? Do they dump Dave?

   9. GUGuest24:12

      Okay.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett24:12

       Or do they go tell Dave?

   11. GUGuest24:14

       It depends how important sex is to them.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett24:17

       If it's important.

   13. GUGuest24:17

       So, say it's important, and for them, a relationship, they're in a monogamous relationship so they can't get sex elsewhere-... or they've agreed to not get sex elsewhere, and sex is important, then it's quite important that attraction is part of it. Um, we know that the sex science tells us that when attraction is high at the beginning, it's really easy to maintain desire over time. When attraction is low, it can be really challenging. It's not unusual for me to see couples who've been together decades with very low levels of attraction, but the work they need to do to maintain a sex life that works for them both is tough. So you need to kind of have your eyes open, I guess, about what you're signing up for. If sex is important to you, then attraction is fairly important. I think it's also maybe useful to say that attraction can wax and wane, and it might be worth examining what's going on there and whether, you know, there is a certain situation that you find yourselves in as a couple, or whether they're at the moment going through some stuff that maybe makes it harder for you to see them in that light.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett25:24

       Yeah.

   15. GUGuest25:25

       Sometimes attraction can come back when those relationship contexts are worked on. But if it's never been there from the outset, if it's a very strong sense of a lack of attraction, if someone's eyes have already moved to someone else, then it may be useful to address it.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett25:41

       And attraction's not just a physical thing. People think of attraction as being physical. It's a psychological thing as well.

   17. GUGuest25:46

       Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, attraction can vary in relationships depending on what's happening in the relationship dynamic. So a common thing that I've written about in the new book, because it's a book for parents really, is around the dynamic of what it feels like to have a partner who feels like a- another child. So the idea that you might be having to care for them as well, you know, make their lunches, kind of buy their clothes, um, tidy up after them, that we know from sex research that's a super unsexy dynamic, and that is something which often falls on women in straight relationships once kids arrive. And that kind of dynamic can shift attraction and may well shift back if that dynamic is addressed.

9. 26:32 – 28:01

   How to Not Let Kids Ruin Your Sex Life

   1. GUGuest26:32

   2. SBSteven Bartlett26:32

      So your new book is called How Not to Let Having Kids Ruin Your Sex Life.

   3. GUGuest26:35

      That's right.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett26:36

      Why did you title it that?

   5. GUGuest26:38

      I just thought, "Let's say what it is," and that's exactly what it is. It's a guide to not let having kids ruin your sex life.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett26:45

      Does that tend to happen?

   7. GUGuest26:46

      Oh, yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett26:46

      I've not had kids yet.

   9. GUGuest26:47

      It's so... Oh, yeah. So it's so common. Sexual dissatisfaction is at its lowest for couples in the period after having kids. So if you've got an under five-year-old at home, it's pretty likely that your sex life is suffering for it. It doesn't have to, but many of the kind of reasons why our sex life struggles when kids come along are, um, amplifications of dynamics that we struggle with outside of kids. So for example, quite often, but of course not always, people are in a long-term relationship, quite often they're living together. Being in a long-term relationship and living together are two factors which reduce your desire over time, so you've already, you're already starting from that point. You may have also been trying to conceive. You might have had problems with fertility, with miscarriage. Sex might have got boring, but you might have had to do it anyway. You've then got pregnancy, which for some people is a golden time of sexual exploration, but for some people means, for one reason or another, they don't have much sex, and then you're expecting to get back to your sexual life when you're getting no sleep, when you're stressed, and when you've got another kind of 37, 40 hours of work a week to do, which is the parenting week. So there's so many reasons why it's challenging, and that's why I wrote the book.

10. 28:01 – 28:52

    The Demographic That Comes to You More Than Any Other

    1. GUGuest28:01

    2. SBSteven Bartlett28:01

       Is there a- a certain demographic of person that you're most likely to see in your clinical practice, and is it, is it parents?

    3. GUGuest28:09

       I see people of all ages. I see, I probably see people mostly in long-term relationships. I think people know that desire is my specialist subject, so people tend to seek me out particularly around desire. Um, I see a lot of parents. I also see a lot of non-parents. But, you know, parenthood brings additional challenges for people to navigate. Even if you think about the time available to have sex, it's much more limited. It can be really difficult to initiate. When you initiate it, the other person might experience it as a really clumsy initiation when they've got a lot on their plate. These are all just, as I said, amplifications of what you might get in long-term relationships generally, but it tends to be the more challenging wedge of the pie.

11. 28:52 – 34:49

    Why Desire Goes in a Relationship

    1. GUGuest28:52

    2. SBSteven Bartlett28:52

       Desire. This idea of desire is really fascinating to me. I actually speak to one of my best friends about, um, what we call desire management, and it was a theory that we developed based on just looking at both of our lives and how we'd managed to maintain sexual desire in our respective relationships. He has a- an approach to dating, which we all laugh at him for, where he meets someone and he moves them in really, really quickly. Like, moves them in. It's a very, like, smothering approach to, like, finding love, and desire very quickly goes out the window.

    3. GUGuest29:23

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett29:24

       Whereas I'm probably the opposite of that, where in my current relationship, it was a long-distance relationship for two years. She lived on the other side of the world. Eventually, in maybe year three or something, we, like, moved in together, but we're still, we still both fly all over the world, so we don't see each other much...

    5. GUGuest29:37

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett29:37

       ... which I think has proven to be quite central to our desire management.

    7. GUGuest29:41

       Mm-hmm.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett29:41

       We don't see each other much, and we're v-

    9. GUGuest29:42

       And that's good. That's the theory of desire management. Kind of keep some distance.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett29:46

        The theory is keep- keep the right amount of distance. There's probably-

    11. GUGuest29:48

        Absolutely.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett29:49

        There's probably too, too far away and too infrequently seeing them...

    13. GUGuest29:52

        Mm-hmm.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett29:52

        ... and then there's seeing them too much. (laughs)

    15. GUGuest29:54

        Absolutely. It's a great theory. So desire is possibly one of the most fascinating aspects of sex that is grossly misunderstood by our kind of collective psyche, and it's quite interesting because if you ask most people, um, on the street how desire works or what desire is, they'll tell you that we have such a thing as a sex drive or libido, which kind of comes into our mind and tells us it would be a good idea to have sex. That is an idea that came from sex science in the '50s and '60s.... when we believed that desire was the first part of the sexual response cycle. So, you, you first have the idea to be sexual and then you acted on it. And that's kind of seeped down into our collective psyche and that's how we all operate our sex lives. We generally wait to feel like it, and then we act on it. But actually, we now know that desire doesn't work like that, and that in the early stages of a relationship, or if we live apart, there's your desire management, we manage to maintain higher levels of that kind of desire. It's called spontaneous desire, and it happens when a partner is novel or less familiar to us, or perhaps when our dynamic with them isn't diluted by other roles. So, for your friend that moves someone in, that person then becomes a flatmate.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett31:16

        Mm-hmm.

    17. GUGuest31:16

        So that the role of them as a sexual partner is diluted. For other people, it's diluted also b- by being a co-parent. So our brain starts to see that person less as a sexual object. This is an inevitable part of being with someone for a number of years, and we can pretty much guarantee that for most people, spontaneous desire will start to decline about a year or 18 months into a relationship. Obviously, it depends how often you see each other-

    18. SBSteven Bartlett31:43

        Yeah.

    19. GUGuest31:43

        ... and it sounds like your desire management-

    20. SBSteven Bartlett31:45

        Was fantastic. Yeah, yeah (laughs) .

    21. GUGuest31:46

        ... might keep that going a bit longer. For most people, they have this experience, and we know that this happens for everyone, but that women struggle to maintain this more than men. So in the UK, we know that 34% of women and 15% of men are worried that they don't feel like sex enough, and that's because they've seen a drop in the spontaneous desire. We talked about sexual scripts earlier, and we talked about how we learn about sex from what we see. The way desire is represented to us in the media is lust, passion, spontaneity, that sexual urge that you absolutely have to act on, and yes, that is how it works for some of us, some of the time, perhaps after we've not seen each other for a long time, perhaps at the start of a relationship, and for some people, you know, f- lifelong with the same person. But it's not the norm. Actually, what the norm is, is that that type of desire tends to diminish and it's other motivations other than horniness that we're seeking out through sex, so we call these non-sexual motivations, and they may be things like wanting to feel close, stress relief, wanting to feel desired, um, wanting to demonstrate love or affection, wanting to have fun, um, out of a sense of obligation 'cause it's been a while. These are all non-sexual motivations which lead us to the behavior of sex. The problem is a lot of people are waiting to feel like it before they act on it, and for those people, they're waiting a really long time. We know that, for women particularly, uh, it should be considered normal to never feel like sex out of the blue with your longterm partner. Never.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett33:32

        How do we know that?

    23. GUGuest33:33

        From sex research. So when we ask women, "How often do you feel like sex with your partner?" They say either never or maybe once or twice a month. This is spontaneous desire. But we're asking the question about only one type of desire. Responsive desire is desire that emerges out of us beginning sexual activity or having what we call sexual stimuli in front of us, a passionate kiss, a flirtation, being naked together, um, a text that suggests something that we might do later on. The later versions of sex research tell us that actually, desire emerges out of being sexual. Okay? So it comes from doing something to trigger it. But if your understanding of desire is that you should wait until you feel like it, there's a large portion of people in longterm relationships that are just never feeling like it and never doing anything about it. What we need to do instead is be aware that our desire can be triggered, and find ways to trigger it, and have a relationship context that supports triggering it. In that context, we know that people's desire works perfectly well. That means they can have desire feature as much as they want

12. 34:49 – 39:10

    How to Trigger Desire in Your Relationship

    1. GUGuest34:49

       in their relationship-

    2. SBSteven Bartlett34:50

       How do we trigger it?

    3. GUGuest34:50

       ... just by knowing how desire works. So, our brains code things as sexual, and this could be physical touch, it could be a kiss, it could be being naked together, it could be the sight of someone's naked body, it could be a suggestive text. It's different for everybody, but essentially, sexual content triggers our arousal which triggers our desire. It's the reason why the most common thing people say to me in sex therapy is, "I didn't really feel like it, but we had sex and it was great, and afterwards I said, 'Why don't we do that more?'" That's responsive desire. It emerges out of sexual activity. The problem with longterm relationships is that we see a decline in what I call sexual currency, so how we relate to each other as sexual beings. We start to see sex a bit like an on-off switch, so us, we're either having sex or the rest of the time, we're not being sexual together. You know, we're not passionately kissing unless it's part of sex, we're not sending each other those flirty messages we used to at the beginning, we're not spending time lounging around in bed on a Sunday morning being naked together in a way that might kickstart desire. So these low levels of sexual currency and these high levels of familiarity, seeing the same person every day, means our brains just don't code them as sexual stimuli in the same way.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett36:11

       And then we go cheat or we go look for porn or something else.

    5. GUGuest36:14

       Yeah, absolutely, because we want to have that kind of frisson of excitement.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett36:19

       Can I just clarify that?

    7. GUGuest36:20

       Yes.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett36:20

       Sexual currency, this definition-

    9. GUGuest36:22

       Mm-hmm.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett36:22

        ... basically means, if I think this, of this in a financial context, if you see someone as being highly sexually desirable, they have a high sexual currency in your mind.

    11. GUGuest36:32

        Not quite.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett36:33

        Okay.

    13. GUGuest36:33

        So, think currency more like charge.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett36:36

        Oh, okay. Like a- an energy.

    15. GUGuest36:37

        ... that type of... Yeah. So sexual currency, my definition of it would be, it's everything that you do that marks you out as a sexual couple, apart from having sex. So this is the stuff that you wouldn't do with your friends, you wouldn't do with your family, you wouldn't do with your kids. So you're physically affectionate with all those people, right?

    16. SBSteven Bartlett36:55

        Mm-hmm.

    17. GUGuest36:56

        But the sexual side of it, the passionate kissing, the bum grabs, the flirtation, the saying, "You look super hot in that top," these things are sexual currency. So if we think about our sex lives not as this on/off switch of the, you know, 18 minutes, that's the average for men and women when they have sex together, there's 18 minutes of having sex however often you're doing it. If you think of your sexual relationship as something which is always happening, something which you're always nurturing, you can imagine the power that that can have on both triggering desire, but also meeting those sexual needs. I'll give you an example that I wrote about in the new book, actually. Um, 'cause parents obviously have limited time available to have sex. And raising sexual currency is one of the ways you can increase sexual satisfaction, even when you can't have any more sex. So if you think about an example of, um, a straight couple whereby he is feeling that her lack of interest in sex means that she doesn't desire him as much as she used to, and he's worried about that because for him, that means their relationship is in crisis. Uh, she might look elsewhere. And also, he doesn't feel so good about himself. He wants to feel desired. We all do, right? He gave me an example of a time when they perhaps attended a function and they were in the lift, and as they went up in the lift to get to this function, she pushed him against the lift and kissed him really passionately for the 10 seconds they were in the lift, and then they got out the lift and they carried on with the function. This is sexual currency, and that made him feel more desired, more connected to her sexually than a week before, the sex they had that felt like going through the motions. So you've got something which meets your sexual needs, which makes you feel desired, attractive, close, like a sexual couple, like you've got some sexual secret between you that no one else can see, sexual currency does all of that, but it also acts as scaffolding to help us move easily into sex. Because we talked about expectation and pressure earlier, and if you have high levels of sexual currency, there's low pressure for it to go anywhere, because it is your sexual relationship for its own right. It's not someone initiating sex.

13. 39:10 – 40:57

    The "Initiation" Problem

    1. GUGuest39:10

    2. SBSteven Bartlett39:10

       The way to overcome this potential psychological barrier is to create a culture of low pressure between you. You say that sex should be trivial and often, not rare and crucial.

    3. GUGuest39:19

       Absolutely. Yeah. So I-

    4. SBSteven Bartlett39:21

       Trivial and often.

    5. GUGuest39:22

       ... I always know that my work with couples is done when they find it really easy to invite each other into sex and really easy to turn each other down, because what happens when, uh, we have low levels of sexual currency and when sex has become an issue is that everything's riding on initiation.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett39:38

       Mm.

    7. GUGuest39:38

       So the person initiating waits. They, they ignore all the other times they want to initiate it, because it's quite stressful, and they wait until the time it really matters. Maybe it's an anniversary or a weekend away or something where it feels like you should have sex, and they initiate it, and there's so much riding on it that the other person knows there's so much riding on it. They feel pressure. Pressure's a desire killer. It doesn't happen, and then the initiation will be even rarer moving forward.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett40:05

       More pressure for the next thing, yeah.

    9. GUGuest40:06

       More pressure. Exactly. What we want instead is a kind of trivial and often way of sexually relating, high levels of sexual currency, high levels of initiation. So you find it easy to say to your partner, "By the way, at work today, I was thinking about doing this to you when, when we get home." And your partner can say, "That sounds really hot. If only I didn't have this meeting tomorrow on my mind. Let's come back to that on the weekend." So you can let somebody know that sex is on your mind. You can invite someone into something which might be a passionate kiss, might be, "Let's go to bed early and talk about our day," knowing that that is sexual stimuli which might trigger arousal and desire, but also, it acts as a way of triggering that, um, initiation. It makes it easy to initiate, if you're doing it often and if there's low pressure.

14. 40:57 – 43:41

    Should We Schedule Sex?

    1. GUGuest40:57

    2. SBSteven Bartlett40:57

       Do you think you should schedule sex?

    3. GUGuest40:59

       No. Never ever schedule sex.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett41:01

       'Cause you said, "Let's come back to it on the weekend," I was thinking-

    5. GUGuest41:02

       Yeah.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett41:02

       "... 'Fuck, that's just ruined the weekend.'" I'd like to, I like it to be spicy and spontaneous.

    7. GUGuest41:06

       So, um, it's one of our sexual scripts that sex, spontaneous sex is better. And I don't necessarily agree with that, but I do agree with the idea that scheduling sex just creates pressure for everyone. How can you, in advance, agree to something that you don't know if you're gonna feel like when you get there and all that does is create pressure? What you should do, though, in today's day and age, is schedule physical intimacy, schedule some type of sexual currency, because we're so busy. If you don't do that, when is it gonna happen?

    8. SBSteven Bartlett41:38

       The issue I have though is, if I schedule physical intimacy-

    9. GUGuest41:42

       Mm-hmm.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett41:43

        ... then, okay, I- and I keep doing that-

    11. GUGuest41:46

        Mm-hmm.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett41:47

        ... eventually, the expectation comes in that we have sex after the physical intimacy. It's also the same thing with, like, date night.

    13. GUGuest41:52

        Mm-hmm.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett41:52

        If you're parents and you get one date night a week-

    15. GUGuest41:54

        Mm-hmm.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett41:55

        ... we all know when we need to get this- when we need to make this thing happen. So it becomes scheduling sex, because you're scheduling date night once a week. You know what I mean?

    17. GUGuest42:03

        Yeah. So you've got two options, haven't you? One is that you wait until it's really high pressure, and you don't initiate it very often. You wait for this date night, I don't know, once a week, once a month, and everyone knows there's all kinds of stuff riding on it, and that makes it pos- possibly the worst set of circumstances to ev- for everyone to feel like it's sex. Lots of high pressure, sex that might feel formulaic, everyone's distracted, that means they can't get into it, it's not great sex. The other option is that you keep high levels of sexual currency and you try your best to schedule brief moments of physical intimacy, which could act as scaffolding to take it further.You're right in that you may start to build up an expectation that, "Oh, every time we say we'll have a bath together, we end up having sex." That might happen. But when you invite someone into the bath, you are inviting them into the bath, right? So you're not inviting them saying, "Let's have a bath and have sex afterwards." You're saying, "Do you fancy having a bath together?" The fact that you both know where the bath might lead is fine because it allows you to get into that headspace. "Oh, okay, I hadn't thought about sex tonight, but the bath might lead to sex, so let me get into a sexual headspace for a minute." So that's quite useful. The problem comes when you say to them afterwards, "You said you wanted a bath and we've not had sex." Well, that wasn't what you invited them into. You invited them into the bath, so you have to be okay if it doesn't lead to that. But if you initiate these types of things more, if you think about it, scatter gun approach, more of them are likely to go where you want them to go versus that one time of high pressure.

15. 43:41 – 46:31

    What Should We Be Doing to Keep Desire High in Our Relationships

    1. GUGuest43:41

    2. SBSteven Bartlett43:41

       If you were to give me a couple of pieces of simple advice on how to keep desire high in my relationship, what would you say?

    3. GUGuest43:49

       I would say kiss more. Kiss for kissing's sake.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett43:52

       Okay.

    5. GUGuest43:53

       Kiss, kissing often falls off the agenda in long-term relationships. The number of times I see that, um, with couples I'm working with who've been together decades, they only kiss as part of sex or as initiation of sex. So, kissing is a great way of triggering desire. It's also a great way of getting our sexual needs met. So that would be one. The second would be you have to make time to schedule physical intimacy of some type because remember that desire is triggered by that kind of sexual stimuli, whether it's, um, getting naked on the couch and watching a film together that you know has got good sex scenes in it, whether it's massage, whether it's the bath, whether it's, um, some kind of date night that involves use of your bodies. Without that, there are no triggers to your desire, so you're just kind of waiting to feel it. The third is understand how desire works. It's drastically different than what you've been sold. And you're normal if you struggle to get in the headspace sometimes.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett44:51

       What about distance? And, you know, this idea of like-

    7. GUGuest44:54

       Yeah.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett44:54

       ... you talked about how they kind of, uh, your partner can lose their sexual currency if they become a carer or if, you know, I've heard before if they become like too much of a mum or dad in your mind and they stop becoming-

    9. GUGuest45:06

       Mm-hmm.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett45:06

        ... a sort of sexual partner.

    11. GUGuest45:08

        Relationship dynamics are quite fascinating, uh, as you say, because when we talk about them, we often hear things like, "Well, obviously if you're experiencing great amount of relationship conflict, it's gonna affect your sex life." I mean, that's of course, right? We all know that to be true. But actually, it's the subtle dynamics that are quite important. It's, um, having distance from each other and being able to bring in novelty and newness, a bit like you do with kind of having that s- that physical distance, but it's also an emotional separation, isn't it, because you're-

    12. SBSteven Bartlett45:42

        Mm-hmm.

    13. GUGuest45:42

        ... having experiences separately and then coming back together to talk about them. It's also about what roles you might get typecast into in your relationship. So, something I talk about often is the idea that when we have sex with the same person for a long time, we can start to feel as though there's only one way for us to be sexually, and that's the way they're kind of expecting us to be. So it can feel quite suffocating, and sometimes that's the reason that people go outside of a monogamous relationship is because they want to experience themselves differently, they want to be a different person sexually, and because they can't talk to their partner about that and they feel typecast in that dynamic, you know, "You're the dominant one, I'm not," or, um, "The sex that we have is really kind of sensual and caring and I want it to be passionate and an- animalistic," it's really difficult.

16. 46:31 – 51:30

    How to Talk About Your Fetish with Your Partner

    1. GUGuest46:31

    2. SBSteven Bartlett46:31

       You must, uh, come across so many couples in, um, your clinical practice that have two different visions of what sex should look like-

    3. GUGuest46:38

       Yes.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett46:39

       ... fantasies, fetishes. You know, this one wants this person to do this to me, but this person thinks that's, you know, horrific.

    5. GUGuest46:45

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett46:46

       H- how does one bridge the gap? And how does one go about even communicating those things? 'Cause I imagine so many people in so many relationships, it's kind of like what you said earlier, are having really bad haircuts, having really bad sex, and are saying nothing about it, and-

    7. GUGuest46:58

       Oh, yeah.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett46:59

       ... I've been in relationships before where I've thought, "Do you know what? I really wanna do that, but I think she'll think that I'm a little bit-"

    9. GUGuest47:03

       Mm-hmm.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett47:03

        "... you know, too..."

    11. GUGuest47:04

        Trust me. No one is talking about it. Everyone stays silent and just hopes that the other person will either get the hint or will accidentally stumble upon the thing they really want them to do. It is fascinating, really, when you think about it because so much of our satisfaction, our life satisfaction, depends on how sex goes, but we just almost leave it to chance by not talking about it. One of the things we might do in sex therapy is by getting people separately to write down what their perfect sex looks like.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett47:32

        Mm-hmm.

    13. GUGuest47:33

        Um, I have a, uh, an exercise which actually f- free, you can find it on my social media or my website, which is called Conditions for Good Sex, which guides people through the process of doing that, and it looks at three main areas. One is psychological arousal. What turns you on in your head? What kind of dynamic between you and the person works for you? How do you need to feel about yourself in your optimum sexual experience? One is physical stimulation, and that could be anything from where you like to be touched, to the types of sex you like, to, um, the type of positions you like to be in. The third is being able to be in the moment. So you might write there the kinds of things that go through your mind to distract you. And I would get people to do that separately. Um, the way I guide people through that is by getting them to think about their three best sexual experiences and really replay those in their mind. What were the aspects of that sexual experience which you replay over and over again? What was it about how you felt about yourself, about how you could be with that person? What was it about what you were doing?

    14. SBSteven Bartlett48:34

        Mm-hmm.

    15. GUGuest48:35

        What was it about the environment? And people are able to then develop their own perspective, their own, um, list, if you like, of the things that really work for them.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett48:46

        What if-

    17. GUGuest48:46

        Wha-

    18. SBSteven Bartlett48:46

        ... your partner says, "I don't like it"?

    19. GUGuest48:47

        Well, that's what we come to next. Then we look for the overlap. So is there overlap? If there's not, then there's a little bit of work to do, right? Are you gonna stay in a monogamous relationship and, if so, how are you gonna make this work? Are you gonna open it up so you can get your sexual needs met elsewhere? Plenty of people do that. Often, there is enough overlap for people to say, "Okay, I didn't realize that that was a thing for you. I don't... I like that thing, but maybe not quite to that degree. Can we do this instead?" So there's a little bit of negotiation that happens in the middle. But I think perhaps one of the myths around our sexuality is that it exists between us and our partner. And actually, our sexuality just exists within us alone, and we should be allowed to express that alone or in our minds in whatever way that we want. And that could look quite different, what we do alone, perhaps with others, to what we do with another person. So we don't have to get all of our sexual needs met by that one person. There may be other ways of doing it.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett49:47

        Should we remain open-minded to the, um, desires and requests of the other? I, I remember, you know, I like experimenting-

    21. GUGuest49:54

        Mm-hmm.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett49:54

        ... you know? And I think I was once upon a time with someone who was less keen to experiment, and I remember thinking, "Oh, this is boring. This is gonna be really boring." And then, over time, I think I was able to introduce things slowly-

    23. GUGuest50:08

        Mm-hmm.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett50:09

        ... that opened their eyes to experimentation, and then they loved it. They love experimentation. We had the best sex of our lives-

    25. GUGuest50:14

        Okay.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett50:15

        ... because we introduced things, we experimented more. But, um, I, I remember reflecting in that moment that I could've easily walked away from the relationship when this person said-

    27. GUGuest50:22

        Mm-hmm.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett50:22

        ... "Oh, no, that's weird. I don't wanna do that."

    29. GUGuest50:23

        Yeah, and it may be that if this other person had done their con- conditions for good sex, they may have written down under the psychological arousal part, "I really need to know someone or I really need"-

    30. SBSteven Bartlett50:34

        Yeah.
17. 51:30 – 53:21

    What Women Really Want During Sex

    1. GUGuest51:30

       that, how do you know?

    2. SBSteven Bartlett51:31

       Earlier, you used a phrase. You said it's... When we were talking about vaginal, um, penetration, you said, "It's women's least favorite act."

    3. GUGuest51:37

       Yes, it is. Yeah, so we talked about sexual scripts. Um, penis-in-vagina sex being the main course of sex is very much a dominant sexual script, and there are many reasons that's dominant, and it's something that we know from sex research that if you ask people, and they have done many times in sex research, to recount what sex looks like, people will recount a set menu of sex. That is, you start with this, then you do a bit of that, then you go to the main course of penis-in-vagina sex. Um, the kind of American audience will know that. It's a kind of baseball analogy, and I think worldwide we know that analogy too, right? That's how we see how sex should be, but what's most fascinating about that is that suits men's anatomy more than women's. We know that the majority of women, about 80%, um, don't orgasm from penetrative sex, 'cause obviously it's all about the clitoris. And so that's why, for women, their most favorite sexual acts are things like people using their hands to stimulate the clitoris or receiving oral sex, not penis-in-vagina sex. They rate, rate that the least pleasure-inducing sexual act. I- for men, it's different. It's the highest pleasure-inducing sexual act, right alongside masturbation actually. What's fascinating is we talk a lot about desire, particularly between men and women when they have sex together, but we don't always talk about the fact that to move towards sex we have to be motivated to feel that there's gonna be a reward. And so, when we're having sex that perhaps doesn't suit our anatomy as much as we'd like it to or when there's a big orgasm gap and someone else is reliably experiencing more pleasure than we are, of course our desire suffers.

18. 53:21 – 56:40

    Does It Matter Who Initiates Sex?

    1. GUGuest53:21

    2. SBSteven Bartlett53:21

       Does it... We've used the word initiate a lot. Does it matter who initiates?

    3. GUGuest53:26

       It doesn't matter, but we know that the person initiating often experiences higher levels of sexual satisfaction in the encounter than the person-

    4. SBSteven Bartlett53:34

       Interesting.

    5. GUGuest53:34

       ... who's following. There are some really interesting things with initiation, and I actually think that when it comes to sex with long-term partners, when it comes to many of the couples that I see, people often walk through the door saying there's a problem with desire. Sometimes there is. It's usually in their understanding of desire, not desire itself, but often it's in initiation actually. Because if you think about it, initiation is a communication. You're basically saying, "I'd like to have sex now. Would you?" And there are a variety of ways that people initiate, and in my experience they can be wildly off the mark. So one scenario is that the person initiates, and it's so subtle that the other person just doesn't pick up on it at all. And it's quite difficult to put yourself out there with initiation, right? So people test the waters with this coded, subtle, "I'll put my hand there and, and they'll know what that means," and often that is completely missed by the other person, and so the opportunity for sex is lost. The other side of the coin is when people initiate in a really direct way. So, um, we know that women having sex with men initiate much more directly.... and when men are initiating with women, or when women are initiating with women, they initiate much more indirectly. So this direct initiation from women to men often looks like, "Shall we have sex, then? Do you fancy a shag?" That kind of thing.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett55:08

       (laughs)

    7. GUGuest55:08

       Which, although it's direct and you could give it points for being direct communication-

    8. SBSteven Bartlett55:12

       People say that?

    9. GUGuest55:13

       People say that all the time.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett55:14

        Really?

    11. GUGuest55:14

        Yeah.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett55:14

        "Do you fancy a shag?"

    13. GUGuest55:15

        All the time, all the time. They say it, it's direct, it's getting a point across, but it's inherently unsexy.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett55:23

        Mm-hmm.

    15. GUGuest55:23

        And it's quite interesting because the social script of men are always up for sex means that in women's minds, often, they can just say that and that will do it for their partner.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett55:36

        Yeah.

    17. GUGuest55:37

        And actually, that's not the case. And what we know from research is that most men actually say, "I need a bit more than that. I need to feel intimacy, I need to feel desired. I need to feel as though she's initiating it because she's enthusiastic about doing it, not because she's doing it for me." We also know that people fall into styles of initiation, and just in the same way that I mentioned getting typecast around how you are sexually with a partner, you can get typecast in terms of how you initiate. So, there might be one way that you do it-

    18. SBSteven Bartlett56:11

        Always the same.

    19. GUGuest56:11

        ... always.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett56:12

        Yeah, yeah.

    21. GUGuest56:12

        And maybe it was cute for the first six months, but in month 60, it starts to become quite irritating. It starts to become not a sexual trigger, but, "Oh, here we go again."

    22. SBSteven Bartlett56:22

        Yeah. Unsexy. It's kind of like, yeah, planning it.

    23. GUGuest56:24

        Predictable.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett56:25

        Yeah, yeah.

    25. GUGuest56:25

        Uh, pressure. So it can be a really useful thing to have a conversation with somebody else, somebody you're having sex with, around how you actually like sex to be initiated and whether that matches with how each other does it.

19. 56:40 – 59:07

    If Our Idea of What We Want From Sex Isn't Happening What Should We Do?

    1. GUGuest56:40

    2. SBSteven Bartlett56:40

       You know what's interesting? When we think about sex and what we assume it must be like, we all have a bit of an idea in our head, maybe from pornography or something else or movies, that it should just flow.

    3. GUGuest56:50

       Yes.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett56:51

       That it should just... You know. And so when our sex doesn't flow, we think something is broken and wrong with it.

    5. GUGuest56:56

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett56:57

       We should... We just walk in, "Hi babe. How was work?" Da-da-da. "Ooh." Off we go. We're off to the race-

    7. GUGuest57:01

       Yeah.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett57:01

       ... like, every day.

    9. GUGuest57:02

       Yeah.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett57:02

        And it should happen every, every other night.

    11. GUGuest57:04

        (laughs)

    12. SBSteven Bartlett57:05

        Um, and if it's not flowing and happening every other night, we think we need to go and like-

    13. GUGuest57:10

        Yeah.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett57:10

        ... you know, fix this. Someone's to blame. Something's-

    15. GUGuest57:13

        Mm-hmm.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett57:13

        ... wrong with me or him or...

    17. GUGuest57:15

        So let's come back to frequency, 'cause that's a big one. But before we get onto there, occupying the space in between willingness, so, "That's a nice idea that I've had or you've had but I'm not there yet," and desire, when your desire kicks in, is actually quite an uncomfortable space to occupy. And one of the things I like to do in, in my work with people is to try and help them get comfortable in that space. Because, as you say, we have this idea that we should be feeling it before we start. That's wrong. We know that now. But also, that it should be easy for us just to slip into that sexual headspace, to lose that awkwardness, to lose that sense of, "I don't actually know if I'm gonna feel like it. I might do. Can we just continue what we're doing and I'll see?" Occupying that space in between willingness and desire is really a key part of initiation, because if you initiate with, "Shall we have sex?" it doesn't really give you a chance to see if you can occupy that space, does it? You have-

    18. SBSteven Bartlett58:12

        Mm-hmm.

    19. GUGuest58:12

        Either have to say yes or no.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett58:13

        Mm-hmm. Do you not think it's harder for men as well in some regards? Because, like, we gotta get, you know, the Eiffel Tower up in, in, in a heterose- sexual relationship. There's like... It's very easy to see if the man is aroused, whereas it's less obvious.

    21. GUGuest58:28

        Mm-hmm.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett58:28

        I mean, it is... You... There's ways to tell, obviously-

    23. GUGuest58:30

        Yes.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett58:30

        ... without getting too detailed.

    25. GUGuest58:31

        (laughs)

    26. SBSteven Bartlett58:31

        But it's, it's so clear if the man is aroused. (laughs)

    27. GUGuest58:34

        Yeah.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett58:34

        There's no hiding it. (laughs)

    29. GUGuest58:36

        For all of us, our body's arousal response and the degree with which we're turned on in our mind, so desire, don't actually always match as much as we'd like them to. So, I don't know if you've ever had this experience or any of your listeners have, but it can be quite common for men to want to be getting in a sexual headspace or actually be feeling desire, but not be hard. And because it's a visual sign, sometimes their partners, whether they're male or female partners, can take that really personally.

20. 59:07 – 1:00:32

    If Men Can't Get It Up, What Should We Do?

    1. GUGuest59:07

    2. SBSteven Bartlett59:07

       Mm-hmm.

    3. GUGuest59:07

       "What does that mean about me?"

    4. SBSteven Bartlett59:09

       I've had... I'm gonna be honest, 'cause that's the whole point of this podcast, was I've had multiple times in my life where I've not been able to get an erection.

    5. GUGuest59:15

       Mm.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett59:15

       And, uh, it's so awkward. And it's... The minute they realize that you're, you're not gonna be able to get an erection, "What do I say?"

    7. GUGuest59:26

       Mm-hmm.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett59:26

       You know? "What do I say?"

    9. GUGuest59:27

       Yeah. I'm so glad you mentioned it because it's so common, and it's common because this is called arousal non-concordance. So an idea that our bodies don't always do what our brains are thinking. So you might think you want to have sex-

    10. SBSteven Bartlett59:40

        Mm-hmm.

    11. GUGuest59:40

        ... but your body doesn't always respond, and that happens for people of all genders. It's just more challenging for people with penises, right? Because you can see it.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett59:48

        That's what I'm saying.

    13. GUGuest59:49

        Yeah. So it brings with it that extra level of pressure. As soon as you've got that pressure, then as we know, your attention goes elsewhere, your worry increases. That turns down arousal, like turning down the TV, less chance of an erection.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:02

        So can I ask then, what do I do in that moment and what should they do?

    15. GUGuest1:00:05

        Yes.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:05

        As in, like, how do they help me in that very embarrassing moment and wha- what do I say?

    17. GUGuest1:00:09

        Yeah. So they first need to understand that no erection doesn't mean that you don't want to have sex. It might sometimes, of course. But if you're saying, "Look, I'm, I'm really keen for this. I'm just not there yet," then they need to take that at, at face value. Okay? That's really important. Otherwise, you end up feeling as though it's a judgment on your attraction or your desire for them, which it's not. Um, the second thing is,

21. 1:00:32 – 1:01:51

    If Men Can't Get It Up, What Should We Do?

    1. GUGuest1:00:33

       there needs to be less focus on the need for the penis to be hard. And that comes from delineating this idea of this set menu of sex, which means, "A hard penis has to be part of it." There's plenty of other things that you could do sexually-

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:47

       Mm-hmm.

    3. GUGuest1:00:48

       ... if you're feeling like you want to be sexual, which will move your attention back to sexual things, things that might really turn you on. So for example, giving oral sex is often something that a lot of men say really turn them on. Obviously, it's not for everyone.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:01

       Get the vibrator out.

    5. GUGuest1:01:02

       Yeah, all kinds of things.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:03

       Yeah.

    7. GUGuest1:01:03

       Watching someone else's sexual pleasure-

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:05

       Yeah.

    9. GUGuest1:01:05

       ... can really turn us on.... for some people, it's really hard for them to get used to, um, enjoying sensation when their penis is soft. They, they kind of wanna avoid it.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:15

        Mm-hmm.

    11. GUGuest1:01:15

        It'd be great if they didn't and they could be comfortable with enjoying that touch even then, but it might mean moving, moving your attention to another person. What usually happens then is that at some point, it comes back.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:28

        Mm-hmm.

    13. GUGuest1:01:28

        But it only comes back if you don't worry about it-

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:30

        Yes.

    15. GUGuest1:01:30

        ... and if you don't put pressure on it. That has to be not just about you. It has to be about the person you're with as well because, you know, if they're like, "Oh, never mind then, we'll just do it another time."

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:40

        Okay, so that's really interesting. So the foundation of all of that, though, is communication.

    17. GUGuest1:01:44

        Absolutely. Communication.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:45

        Because without that, if- if I go flaccid and then I don't say anything about it and I just

22. 1:01:51 – 1:03:58

    Should We Have Sex Before or After We Eat?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:51

       lay there, like, dormant, and then she's laying there dormant-

    2. GUGuest1:01:54

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:54

       ... and then we try and go to sleep, and then we, you know, we never address it, we never get to communicate, 'cause maybe I did wanna have sex, but maybe-

    4. GUGuest1:01:59

       Yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:59

       ... for some reason, my, my to-do list was still on my mind.

    6. GUGuest1:02:02

       Exactly. And notice that the assumption behind it-

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:05

       Yeah.

    8. GUGuest1:02:05

       ... is that the sex that you're gonna have is penis and vagina penetration. Is that even what she wants?

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:11

       Hm.

    10. GUGuest1:02:11

        And if we could initiate sex in a way that was clearer, if we could say to our partners easily, um, "I'm really horny. What I'd really like to do is X and it all be about me. Are you up for that?" That's quite different. If we're able to be clear about that, what would that do to your confidence with erections? Does that make sense?

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:32

        Yeah, yeah.

    12. GUGuest1:02:32

        If she'd actually gone into that sexual encounter saying, "You know what? All I want you to do is make me come. I'm, I'm, I'm not, I'm not, I don't feel like penetrative sex tonight," if she'd felt confident to say that, I can guarantee there would've been no problem with the erection. The erection would've come as part of it because the whole process would've been arousing.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:51

        This is a bit of a left field one, but it, I just remembered a, a debate me and my friends had in our little, like, mates chat. Is it better to have (laughs) sex before or after you eat?

    14. GUGuest1:03:03

        (laughs)

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:03

        Because he was like, "Oh, no, I..." He, this, I thought this was weird. He was like, "I have sex before we go on the date."

    16. GUGuest1:03:09

        Mm-hmm.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:09

        I'm like, "What? You have sex before the date?"

    18. GUGuest1:03:12

        (laughs)

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:12

        He was like, "Yeah, no sex after, no sex after food."

    20. GUGuest1:03:14

        That is a good idea, to be fair.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:16

        And I'm like, "After the date?"

    22. GUGuest1:03:16

        A lot of people say they struggle.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:18

        Really?

    24. GUGuest1:03:18

        When they're full, they feel quite unsexy.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:21

        Ah.

    26. GUGuest1:03:21

        They feel a bit lethargic.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:22

        Bloated and stuff.

    28. GUGuest1:03:23

        They feel a bit bloated. They don't feel great about their body perhaps. Um, a lot of people do that. If they're gonna have a date night, I mean, I, I never like date nights because I think by the time you get home from a date night-

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:34

        Hm.

    30. GUGuest1:03:34

        ... you've maybe had a bit to drink, you've maybe had a bit to eat. It's maybe quite late. It's not the best conditions for having sex actually. I'd rather, if you had a date night, you kept it on fun, emotional connection, relationship satisfaction, and then you plan an in, at home date night that's more about physical intimacy.
23. 1:03:58 – 1:05:52

    The Optimal Amount of Times to Have Sex

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:58

       my gosh.

    2. GUGuest1:03:58

       But do you wanna come back to frequency?

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:59

       Sure, yeah.

    4. GUGuest1:04:00

       Because we talked about that earlier, and this is one of the big myths that people talk about around sex life, which is that the amount of sex that you have matters, and it really doesn't. So what I mean by that is that if you ask most people how often they should be having sex a week, I mean, what do you think they would say, your friends or people on the street?

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:21

       How much they should be having sex?

    6. GUGuest1:04:22

       Yeah, a week, a month. How much do you think they'd say?

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:26

       Three times a week.

    8. GUGuest1:04:27

       Everyone says three times a week.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:29

       Really?

    10. GUGuest1:04:29

        It's this kind of urban myth that, again, forms part of our sexual scripts. If we're not having sex three times a week, there's a problem. It's actually drastically different than that. The average times people in the, in the UK, and, and actually it's kind of replicated around the world, but what's fascinating is that we're using frequency as a yardstick of a good sex life.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:51

        Mm-hmm.

    12. GUGuest1:04:51

        And there is no correlation between the frequency of sex and sexual satisfaction, none whatsoever.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:58

        So you're saying it's quality over quantity?

    14. GUGuest1:05:00

        Absolutely. You could be having sex, you know, once a year that completely blows your socks off, makes you feel alive, makes you feel super connected, um, that's really exploratory where you lose yourself in it, and that is better than having sex once a day where you're not enjoying it, your mind's not in it, it's not pleasurable, you're feeling disconnected, you're feeling awkward. So it's so interesting that we get so hung up on frequency. In fact, the average amount of times people are having sex in the UK, if people are interested, is around about three times a month, but there is huge amount of variation there. So plenty of people in relationships that haven't had sex for months and are quite happy with that and plenty of people having sex more. But I think having that average is quite useful to talk about because actually it's a l- it's quite surprisingly different

24. 1:05:52 – 1:08:30

    Sexual Dissatisfaction Between Men and Women

    1. GUGuest1:05:52

       to how most people perceive it should be.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:55

       Over 40% of women want to be having more sex than they are currently having, which is in chapter two of this book In Front Of Me: Mind The Gap.

    3. GUGuest1:06:02

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:03

       What about men? So women are, women wanna be having... Over 40% of them want to be having more sex than they're currently having.

    5. GUGuest1:06:09

       Yeah, there's, there's huge levels of sexual dissatisfaction for people of all genders. Everyone wants to be having more sex, better sex than they're currently having. We know that for women, it's around about, what, just over half of women, 52%, and for men, it's about 42% are unhappy with the sex lives that they have. Enormous numbers. That's UK data, 15,000 adults between the ages of-

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:31

       So men are typically more satisfied?

    7. GUGuest1:06:34

       Yeah, and I suggest that the reason for that is that although men experience challenges with desire as well, men find it easier on average to maintain desire for the same person, and as we've already talked about, women struggle to access their spontaneous desire and label that as a problem when it's not. You know, I'm aware we're talking very much about straight couples because that's where we see the majority of sexual problems. But when we talk about men and women having sex together, we also see that orgasm gap. So we see less pleasure and less reward for women, which I think accounts for that slightly higher number.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:07

       So y- you said something in between there that was curious to me. Just to confirm, over long term relationships...The man is more likely to maintain their desire for the woman in a heterosexual relationship.

    9. GUGuest1:07:17

       That's right.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:18

        The woman is more likely to lose desire for her partner.

    11. GUGuest1:07:22

        That's right. And we're talking here, remember, about spontaneous-

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:25

        Concerning it.

    13. GUGuest1:07:26

        ... desire.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:26

        Okay.

    15. GUGuest1:07:26

        Okay?

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:27

        Is that...

    17. GUGuest1:07:27

        Remember, there's, there's the responsive desire we talked about earlier, and we know that, and this is the interesting bit, when it comes to women's desire, it's actually much more easier to trigger with a wide range of sexual stimuli than men's. So women's responsive desire works brilliantly. You could say it works even better than men's. So spontaneous desire is only one type of desire. It's that feeling of out of the blue lust, horniness, want to rip your clothes off. It's partly attributable to higher levels of androgens, like testosterone, but certainly not exclusively. There's a massive social component to it as well. So yes, men find it easier to maintain that. Um, but I think it's really important to say 'cause there will be men listening to this that will be worried about their desire, as we've said earlier, 15% is actually quite a large number. It's not all men. Some men really struggle to keep hold of that spontaneous desire in a long-term relationship.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:18

        And just to clarify, the reactive desire is the desire that kicks in once you've begun?

    19. GUGuest1:08:22

        Basically, yeah.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:23

        Yeah.

    21. GUGuest1:08:23

        Some kind of sexual stimuli, some kind of sexual currency. Um, it comes after arousal.

25. 1:08:30 – 1:12:30

    How to Deal with a Sex Life as a Parent

    1. GUGuest1:08:30

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:30

       I wanna close off on the subject of parents. Um, I'm not a parent yet, but my brother has three kids.

    3. GUGuest1:08:37

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:37

       And they're under the age of six. They're six and under.

    5. GUGuest1:08:41

       Wow.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:41

       And he's got three of them.

    7. GUGuest1:08:42

       I'm gonna send him my book (laughs) .

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:43

       Yes, I'm gonna, I'm sure he's h- he's gonna listen anyway. Um, and from that, I've, I've been able to understand on a surface level the plight of a parent. Sleep-

    9. GUGuest1:08:53

       Mm-hmm.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:54

        ... um, kids waking up in the middle of the night, work pressures, a lot of people are working at home now as well, so that c- that has impacts on sleep and how you're feeling and your mental health and all those things. And to think that couples irrespective of children are struggling with sex.

    11. GUGuest1:09:08

        Mm-hmm.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:08

        You've, you said at the start of this conversation, but it says in your book as well, that we're having less and less sex, um, when you compare one decade to the previous decade. And there was another study that I saw that said there's been general declines in sexual frequency in other countries around the world as well, like Japan, Australia, Finland, and the USA.

    13. GUGuest1:09:27

        Mm-hmm.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:27

        So we know that, like, w- we're, we're having less sex with each other anyway.

    15. GUGuest1:09:31

        Mm-hmm.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:31

        And then you throw kids into the mix, which I just f- I don't know. I've not been there yet, so I've not crossed that bridge, but I'm trying to figure out when I do come to that bridge, how on earth I'm gonna be able to have sexual desire when I'm a very busy CEO, running multiple businesses, traveling all over the world, seeing my partner currently not very much.

    17. GUGuest1:09:51

        Mm-hmm.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:51

        You know, and trying to make those moments where we do spend time together special. Then you throw in little Timmy-

    19. GUGuest1:09:56

        (laughs)

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:57

        ... who's gonna ah, and he's not gonna care about my schedule.

    21. GUGuest1:10:01

        No.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:01

        And-

    23. GUGuest1:10:02

        Timmy won't care.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:02

        ... he's g- he's gonna become my priority for rightfully so-

    25. GUGuest1:10:05

        Mm-hmm.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:05

        ... if he behaves himself.

    27. GUGuest1:10:06

        Mm-hmm.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:07

        And then where's sex gonna go? Where, w- you know?

    29. GUGuest1:10:09

        Yeah, this is why it's, it's a real challenge for parents, and I think one of the key things and one of the reasons I wrote the book actually, is because the first thing that we can do for parents is talk about the fact that it's normal, okay? It's not you. It's not your relationship. It's nothing about the two of you together that means you shouldn't be together. It's challenging to have a good sex life when you've got young kids at home. It's challenging for everyone. I think the second thing that we can do is explain to people what the factors are that tend to make a difference. So people know about pregnancy, people know about trying to conceive, they understand that these things will impact on their sex life, but I think the things that they don't acknowledge or don't realize as much is the trajectory that that sets them on in the early stages, and the trajectory that that first year of having a newborn baby will set you on in terms of that reduction in sexual currency, in terms of resentments that might start to breed and how your relationship dynamic becomes, in terms of how equal the mental load is, and we know that the mental load, so that's kind of the unequal division of labor which often falls on women in heterosexual relationships, particularly when kids come along. We know that there's a direct correlation between couples who divide that household labor in a kind of equitable and transparent way, and sexual satisfaction. So it seems quite hard to believe, but actually it doesn't have to be completely equal, but if you feel as though your partner is pulling their weight, if you feel as though it's not all automatically falling to you, we know that people generally tend to have better sex. So there's all kinds of things which parents need to know about their sex life that they don't.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:52

        Is that about resentment though? Is that-
26. 1:12:30 – 1:14:02

    What You Can Do as a Parent to Ensure Your Sex Life Doesn't Go Off Track

    1. GUGuest1:12:30

       for parents, and one of them is, I compare the journey of parenthood a little bit like, um, a kind of navigation across the seas, right? So parenthood is the storm, and it's a storm for everyone. And there are different phases of the storm, and some of it you just need to batten down the hatches and get through it as unscathed as you can, and not worry about sex so much. That might be like the newborn phase. But then there are also parts of the journey where you might have found yourself knocked off course a little bit, and what you actually need to do is take stock of the boat and say, "Hold on. What, what's going on here? What are we doing? If we continue on this trajectory, 10, 15 years down the line we're likely to be in a place where sex is unrecoverable. Versus if we make a small change, a degree or two to the left or right..."... very small changes, over the long term, we might end up in an entirely different destination. And so the book is all about, what are those small changes? And this might be surprising to some people. It's not having more sex. It's other ways of increasing sexual satisfaction. So for example, we know that when we turn each other down gently for sex, it increases sexual satisfaction. We know that when we increase sexual currency, which doesn't have to take much time, we increase sexual satisfaction. So there are many things that people can do even if they don't feel they have time or head space for sex, or until they have the time and head space for sex, that can just keep that boat kind of heading in the right direction.

27. 1:14:02 – 1:17:15

    The Relationship Between Poor Sleep and Sex

    1. GUGuest1:14:02

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:03

       What about, what's the relationship there with sleep and sex then? Because obviously if, if I've got little Timmy crying at nighttime at 3:00 AM, uh, I'm gonna be poorly slept the next day-

    3. GUGuest1:14:11

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:11

       ... which means, will that have an impact on how horny I am?

    5. GUGuest1:14:14

       Yes. Yeah. Big relationship between sleep and sex for all of us. We know that if you get a good night's sleep, your chances of having sex the next day increase by 14%. So that's for all of us. When it comes to parents, there is some quite interesting data about the impact of nighttime waking on your sex life. We know that the number of times you get up in the night to tend to a child, like to go to the cot or the bed to see to a, a crying child, the number of times you get up has an impact on what's happening in your sex life and for your desire. So we tend to see the more times you get up, the less happy you are with your sex life. And the reason for that is because not getting a good night's sleep disrupts, um, how the body responds to sexual response, so how, the chemicals in the body that help us be prepared for arousal to build. But also it's the cognitive distraction of being woken up by something quite upsetting-

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:10

       Mm-hmm.

    7. GUGuest1:15:10

       ... someone else crying, and having to deal with it, which we know disrupts the part of our sleep, the REM sleep, which actually we need for our sexual functioning. So even just knowing that as a parent and knowing that, look, if you're getting up many times a night, don't worry about your sex life for the time being. What you can do as a couple is focus on sharing that more equally. Because if one of you is getting a good night's sleep and feeling horny all the time and another one's getting up three times and sex is the last thing on their mind, probably the best thing that you can do is try and share it.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:42

       Is there a certain age where sex comes back, in t- in terms of your children's age? Is there, like, when you get to, I don't know, 10 years old, then-

    9. GUGuest1:15:51

       Hmm.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:51

        ... sex comes back in typically?

    11. GUGuest1:15:52

        Yeah. So we know that people start getting sleep from when their kid is about six. But obviously if you've got another one that's a bit younger, um, then you might be starting the process all over again. So given that sleep's so important, the older they get, the better that is for people's sex lives. I mean, it's hugely variable. So there are plenty of people that start having sex again, um, you know, within three months of their baby being born. And yes, it may be less frequent than before, but it doesn't disrupt their sex lives as much. And then there's plenty of people whereby it might take them a year to even start having sex again, and then the frequency of having sex might stay quite infrequent for some time. What's interesting though in how quickly people get back to it is that how quickly people get back to it is often about the habits that they've then fallen into as a sexual couple, so low levels of sexual currency, high levels of awkwardness, not prioritizing time together. You know, parenthood is basically a juggle of priorities, right? All the time. There's always something else you should be doing. And so the sex that you have has to be enticing enough for your brain to say, "Yeah, I'm gonna sacrifice that for sex."

Episode duration: 1:36:06