The Diary of a CEOThe Real Trick To Long Term Motivation: Daniel Pink | E130
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,021 words- 0:00 – 1:05
Intro
- SBSteven Bartlett
Could you do me a quick favor if you're listening to this? Please hit the follow or subscribe button. It helps more than you know. And we invite subscribers in every month to watch the show in person.
- DPDaniel Pink
No one ever teaches us how to deal with negative emotions. That's the big problem, I think.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've watched Daniel Pink's videos as a way to inspire me for years.
- DPDaniel Pink
The world is littered with people who have a decent amount of innate talent, who didn't put in the work. Here's the thing about us human beings. We stink at solving our own problems. We fear that when we share our mistakes, our vulnerabilities, our regrets, people will think less of us. The fact that those regrets stuck with me for 10 years, that's telling me something. Real courage is staring your regrets in the eye and doing something about them. We are on this planet for a vanishingly small amount of time, and you're not using that time wisely. Best way to improve is to ...
- SBSteven Bartlett
So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.
- 1:05 – 6:59
Where do your skills come from?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Daniel.
- DPDaniel Pink
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You've, um, you've lived a really remarkable life, and obviously, the most remarkable thing that, from my perspective, that I've seen from your, I don't know, the last 20 years of your life is, you became a person who's really remarkably good at communicating and understanding, um, complex ideas, and then conveying them in a way which is really engaging. Is there anything ... And I was, I was looking through your childhood as much as I possibly could.
- DPDaniel Pink
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right? It sounds creepy, right? Is there anything from your early years-
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... that when you look back, set you up to become the man you are today? Are there any moments-
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... or experiences, or traumas dare I say?
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah. Well, th- I mean, thanks for that ni- thanks for that nice compliment. Um, I, I'm probably the worst person in the world to psychoanalyze me. But, um, I, I would say if there's anything is, and it just shows you in some ways the circumstances of, of birth. Um, I happened to live in a part of the United States that had one of the best public library systems in America. I lived walking distance to an excellent public library, and I lived a bus ride away from a giant downtown cavernous cathedral-like library. And so I spent an enormous amount of time as a kid in libraries. I always loved reading, I always loved words, I always loved books. And my hunch, and it's just a hunch, Steven, is that had the circumstances of my birth been different, had I been born in another city or another country, you know, maybe I would be just a really excellent dentist.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But at some point, you became this Al Gore speech writer.
- DPDaniel Pink
Uh-huh.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I look at, when I look at people's skill stacks, you can-
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... sometimes point at the thing ... You're really looking for the quite unique but complementary skill, right? And for me, it's all well and good knowing a bunch of stuff.
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Bing it- but being able to communicate that intelligence in a way that's engaging and compelling is a very unique part of your skill stack, which is probably the reason why your books do so well, your TED Talk was a smash hit-
- DPDaniel Pink
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and everything in between. Where did that skill come from?
- DPDaniel Pink
You know, I, I, I don't, I don't know. I think a lot of it comes ... I, I've ... But I think it comes from tw- perhaps from two things. Okay? One of them is something that I feel like a lot of other people don't do, which is think about things from another person's perspective. What do they understand? What do they know? What are their reference points? I think that's extraordinarily important. It's something that I learned how to do probably a little bit later in life. The other thing, I mean, is work. For instance, I give you a h- so f- so for my books, for instance, I will do multiple, multiple drafts of every chapter. I will read aloud every chapter to my wife, often multiple times. What's even worse, my wife will read chapters aloud to me so I can hear it, to try to essentially make every word that I write fight for its life. That is, that word has to look at me and say, "I deserve to live," before I f- knock it out. And so I think that that simplicity and conciseness that come just from effort are really the key.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that's so evident, especially in the book that I just read, which is The Power of Regret, your new book. And even Harry, who read it as well, on my team, when he walked into my office about an hour ago, he goes, "He's very, very succinct-
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... with his points." And he, and, and I think what Harry said, there's like no fluff.
- DPDaniel Pink
Thank you, Harry.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- DPDaniel Pink
That's my goal.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- DPDaniel Pink
Truly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And why is that important?
- DPDaniel Pink
Because I hate reading fluff myself.
- 6:59 – 8:37
How to be consistently motivated
- DPDaniel Pink
who were more innately talented than I was, definitely. But I had to decide, n- no one's gonna outwork me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's so funny because I, I obviously agree. I'm gonna play devil's advocate here, but-
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... 'cause the thing that I always try and get to the, the heart of when I talk about consistency and persistence, and I, I, I've seen your examples about compounding returns-
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... as it relates to finance, et cetera, is, why aren't some people persistent? Well, I know there's many, many factors.
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is it self-belief? Is it, is it not being intrinsically motivated by the task itself and doing it for the wrong reasons? Is it a combination of all these factors?
- DPDaniel Pink
I think that it's a combination of all of those factors. I think it's, I think it starts at a pretty high level. I think part of it is that, is that people don't know. They actually believe the opposite, that talent is more important than persistence. And so they believe they're talented, and they think that great things will happen to them simply because of their status as a talented person. So they're wrong at, like, a meta-level, (laughs) right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
The other thing is that, um, I do think that part of it is a, is a miss of, of intrinsic motivation, uh, but it's, it's different. Um, it's intrinsic motivation not because every day is joyful, uh, b- but because every day is necessary, and every day is at least somewhat meaningful, uh, you know? And so there's an adage, um, that being a professional is showing up, um, to do something you love, even on the days you don't feel like doing it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
And, and that, to me, that, to me, is, is, is the key. Like, like, I like writing some days-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
... but not every day. Some days, it's a gigantic pain in the ass. Some days, it's
- 8:37 – 11:51
Manifestation
- DPDaniel Pink
really, really hard. But I have to show up and do the work that day too, and that's what being a professional is, is showing up and doing the work even on the days where, you know what? I'm not that into it today.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In the self-development community, I think that there's been this growing feeling that you can, like, wake up in the morning, say some nice things in the mirror, "I'm gonna be a millionaire, I'm amazing," and then life will somehow bring about all of these wonderful things that you've manifested. And honestly, when I, when I hear people talking about manifestation, I feel quite s- in the w- in the, in the cultural context, the almost, like, spiritual, cultural context-
- DPDaniel Pink
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... in personal development, they do, I, (laughs) it's almost comical. And I, I, um, I feel sorry for them and their chances of achieving any of those things. What's your view on manifestation? In the, like ... I'm not talking about s- setting yourself a goal and then-
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... going after it. I'm just w- this kind of, like, fluffy, say it to yourself, write it in your notebook, and then it'll happen type stuff. I don't know. And have you seen that? Am I just-
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... it's my observation, I think.
- DPDaniel Pink
I mean, you know, there w- uh, yeah. I'm, I, I'm skeptical. I'm skeptical. Now, we, there is some, now, there's some interesting stuff, there's some interesting research on this question that we can go to, 'cause I always like things that are evidence-based, and I've been seeing a lot of evidence that manifestation is a, is a winning technique. My view is like, if it works for you, you like it, god bless you, go for it, do it. Just, but you're still gonna need to show up to work. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
Um, but, um, there's some other very interesting research, um, uh, in what's called, uh, in certain kinds of self-talk. Okay? So what you're talking about in, in some ways is self-talk, so how do we talk to, how do we talk to ourselves? And there's some interesting research showing that if you say to yourself before a big encounter, "You can do it. You got this." Okay? So let's say I'm going in to pitch a new book. I can say to myself, "You got this. You're gonna crush it." You know, that. That's actually better than not doing anything, okay? That kind of self-talk. But it's not the best thing you can do. The best thing we, you can do is something known as interrogative self-talk, interrogative self-talk, where you turn it into a question. Now, the manifestation people hate that, all right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
But instead, what you say is, "Can you do this? And if so, how?" Can you do this, and if so, how? You ask a question rather than make that bold assertion. And now here's the interesting thing, questions by their very nature elicit an active response. Or, or, you know, I ask a question-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
... you ask me a question, my, my, my, my wheels have to turn. But we ask ourselves a question, the wheels also turn. So if I say to myself, let's say I'm pitching a new book. "Can you do this?" Well, yeah, I can do this 'cause I've pitched books before. But this time, I have to think about it because Harry over there has never liked an idea that I want, so I gotta make sure that I really focus on Harry. Ugh, last time, I talked too much and listened too poorly, so I gotta chill out a little bit. Wh- what am I doing? I'm rehearsing-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
... I'm preparing, I'm practicing, and that's actually more muscular than the nominally muscular thing of, "You can do it, you got this."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
Which is not terrible. So, um, so that's my view on, that's my general view on, on manifest, on manifestation. Manifestation without work is a, is delusion. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- DPDaniel Pink
Okay? But, um, manifestation with work isn't the worst
- 11:51 – 19:46
How to keep people motivated
- DPDaniel Pink
thing in the world. And self-talk rooted in evidence, especially interrogative self-talk can be really smart.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... drive. That was the, the gateway piece of content that, um, put me onto your work, specifically the TED Talk. Me and my girlfriend watched it, uh, together, and we weren't planning on watching it. I think I clicked on it, and then it was so engaging-
- DPDaniel Pink
Oh, thanks.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... your delivery that it held us for the entire ... I think it was about 20 minutes.
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah. Wow.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And it's done some 10 million views, and then there's been, you know ... I saw the illustrated version of it, which I think has done 18 million views. It's crazy, the numbers on that. Um, the base premise of that a- is obviously kind of de- debunking this thesis we had about how to motivate people and keep them engaged-
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... in work. And you, you assert and you, you prove that autonomy, mastery, and purpose are a much more compelling formula.
- DPDaniel Pink
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That journey of writing that book and, um, going on, yeah, the journey of doing the research, how did it change your view on how to keep employees engaged? And if y- I don't know if you ha- if you build companies now, but on how to treat people, 'cause I w- I came away from it thinking, "I understand, but what are the things I can do now as a employer to, to make sure that the team you see-
- DPDaniel Pink
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... around me today are motivated?"
- DPDaniel Pink
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- DPDaniel Pink
Sure. So, so what it ... So again, I can summariz- I can, I can summarize the ... That, that book, it looks at ab- about 50 years of science in, in, in what really motivates people, but I can summarize the main point very, very simply, which is this. There's a certain kind of motivator we use in organizations. Psychologists call it a controlling contingent motivator. Again, let's go back to simplicity. That's a lot of syllables. Let's just call it an if-then reward, right? Makes a lot more sense.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
If you do this, then you get that. If you do this, then you get that. 60 years of science now tells us that if-then rewards are actually pretty good for tasks that are simple to do and that have a short time horizon. Human beings love rewards. You dangle a reward in front of s- in front anybody, myself included, (mouth popping) you've got their attention, been in that very narrow way. But if-then rewards, the science tells us, are less great for more complex tasks with longer time horizons, tasks that require judgment, creativity, discernment, conceptual thinking, and the reason is the same. If-then rewards narrow our focus for a lot of tasks, particularly the tasks that most people are doing, most creators are doing, most people in the creative economy are doing, you wanna have a more expansive focus. And so, so we gotta get rid of that way of motivating people for the bulk of things that people are doing today. And what the research tells us is you gotta pay people fairly and pay people well. You gotta pay people fairly and pay people well, and then you wanna offer as y- exactly as you say, some autonomy, some c- some control, some sovereignty over what you do, how you do it, when you do it, where you do it, mastery, which is a chance to get better at something that matters to make progress and meaningful work, and a sense of purpose. Do you know why you're doing it? Are you making a contribution? Are you making a ... Are you making a difference? So, we can talk at, in, in-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- DPDaniel Pink
... more granular level about what specifically to do.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did you ever figure out from your research why autonomy, mastery, and purpose, why they are the things that motivate us and keep us most engaged in work? Well, why, why those things?
- DPDaniel Pink
It's a great question, and, and it's a question that I think is embedded in that work that most people don't see embedded in there, because that's who we are as human beings. We are innately autonomous. I, I'll give you an, I'll give you an example, the best example. Go find me a two-year-old anywhere on the planet. She's gonna be self-directed. She's gonna be resisting control. She's gonna be, um, engaged and interested and curious about stuff. That's autonomy. She is going to wanna get better at something. She's gonna wanna learn and grow. That's who she is, all right? Two-year-old. "Why, why is this? Why am I doing this? Why am I doing this?" Four-year-old, it's the same thing. That's who we are. That's why these things are so important. They're part of what it means to be human-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
... and so tha- that's why they're so powerful. And I think what's interesting, Steven, is that for a long time, in organizations of any kind, but certainly the, the business, most businesses today, certainly the business that you've built-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
... what you ha- w- we, for a long time, we've had to run organizations that went against the grain of human nature because that was efficient, that efficiency was the highest thing, and the only way to achieve efficiency was actually through some mechanisms of control, by saying, "Eh, it doesn't matter why we're doing this. Just freaking do it." All right? So, control and, and, um, and those kind of, those are very, very tight measurements, tho- those tight, uh, mechanisms. Now, I think the best businesses, the best organizations go with the grain of human nature. That's the key. That's why these things are so powerful, because it's part of who we are. And organizations that build context that go with the grain of human nature are gonna be better. They're gonna be better places to work 'cause people aren't gonna be miserable-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
... but they're also gonna be more effective.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I get ... So I get the autonomy point, right? Understood. Mastery, what does that mean?
- DPDaniel Pink
It means that people have an innate desire to get better at stuff, to learn and to grow. I'll give you an example. Think about, I mean, the most mundane example. Any weekend anywhere, here in London, in Washington, DC, where I live, what are you gonna have? You're gonna have people who are playing musical instruments on the weekend. Why? Are they making any money off of it? No. Are they planning for a career as professional musicians? No. Why are they doing it? 'Cause they like it, and it's fun to get better at guitar. It's fun to get better at violin. In my neighborhood in Washington, DC, there is a big soccer field, a big soccer pitch about two blocks away. Why on weekends are those things swarmed with guys my age running around in shorts? Are they gonna be playing professional soccer? No. Are they gonna get famous as soccer players? No. Why do they like it? 'Cause it's interesting, 'cause it's fun, because I like getting better at it. That's wha- that is an innate part of what it is to be human. Human beings innately want to learn and grow. Now, here's the thing. I think that's our nature. This is important. I think that certain institutions can change the default setting (laughs) on that nature. I think that when we ship ... All right, let's think about human beings as, as products (laughs) , all right? The default setting of human beings is autonomy, mastery, and purpose. I am convinced of that. I think that sometimes in school or other kinds of experiences, that default gets flipped and people learn.... compliance, they stop caring about mastery, they care, they don't care as much about why. But I think that is because the context that they're in has thwarted their natural s- their natural state.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And what's the consequences of when that dial is turned and they become compliant and, because that must be them going against their human innate-
- 19:46 – 28:16
How to fuel purpose
- DPDaniel Pink
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
And the way that human beings engage is by getting there under their own steam. The way that human beings engage is through self-direction.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm. And then, the last point about purpose.
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When people think about purpose, especially, I think, younger generations, they always think about trying to save the world or-
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... doing something which is gonna help others. It's a really weird thing that's happened to this, this, to my generation, where we all wanna, like, we all w- I don't know whether we wanna save the world or whether we wanna be seen as someone that wants to save the world. It's not, I'm not sure if it's virtue signaling-
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... or if it's an innate desire to-
- DPDaniel Pink
I'm, I'm not either. I think that there is a lot of virtue signaling there, and let me f-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Social media.
- DPDaniel Pink
Let me tell you, yes. Let me tell you about, let me tell you about purpose though, because, and forgive me, I might owe you some money because I didn't get it quite right in that book drive. What I've discovered since is that purpose is not one thing, it's two things, and it goes exactly to the question that you're asking. So one kind of purpose is what I like to think of as capital P Purpose, large P Purpose, and that is what you're talking about, "I'm feeding the hungry, I am solving the climate crisis," whatever, and there's no doubt in the, in the research that that's a, that can be a very powerful motivator, that people who are animated by that sen- that kind of purpose do good work. That's, that's very, very clear. But day-to-day, it's hard to get that every single day. It's hard to get that kind of purpose on Wednesday and Thursday and Friday, and then show up again the next w- it's hard to get that every single day. Uh, it's still important, and I, but I, this is what I missed. There's a second kind of purpose that I call small p purpose, and that's just making a contribution, right? S- um, capital P Purpose is making a difference. Small P purpose is making a contribution. Did you help a teammate get the product out the door? Did you help this customer resolve its problem? Um, there's a great piece of research, I love this, out of Harvard Business School, where they had a cafeteria in Boston, and in the cafeteria, you know, the customers went through the line in the cafeteria putting food on their trays and being served food, but the people cooking the food were in the back. You couldn't see them. They, the cooks couldn't see the customers and the customers couldn't see the cooks. So these researchers rigged up an iPad, just like the one you have in front of you, that allowed the cooks get, to see the customers, and w- what they were measuring, and this is, forgive me for getting in the weeds here of this research, but what they were measuring, the dependent variable, was not whether the cooks were satisfied with their jobs when they saw the customers. They were measuring the customer evaluation of the food. And so the question they were asking is, "When the cooks can see the customers, does the quality of the food change, customer ratings of the food change?" And the answer was, "Yes! Customer satisfaction went up 10% when the cooks could see the customers even though the customers couldn't see the cooks."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah. So that's what I'm talking about here. So those cooks back there-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- DPDaniel Pink
... these are, they're not feeding the, the, the, the hungry. I mean, they're, people are hungry 'cause it's lunchtime in Boston-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
... but they're not feeding people who are destitute. What, what's going on here? That cook looks at somebody moving through the line and says, "Whoa. Wait a second. Another human being is going to eat my cheese omelet, so, wow, I, I, I know why I'm doing what I'm doing. It's not changing the world, but it's affecting one person's life, so I'm going to up my cheese omelet game 10%."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
And, and I think that, that, that small p purpose is extraordinarily important, and so again, purpose is not one thing, it's two things.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And for organizations listening or for anyone on a team, I guess the, the key takeaway I had then is how can I make my teams more connected to the impact they're having with the work they're doing? Because if I do that, then their work will improve and they'll find more meaning and purpose in their work and they'll, yeah.
- DPDaniel Pink
Can, let me, can I, can I give you a couple ideas? Sure, sure, sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Please. I give you a million ideas.
- DPDaniel Pink
So, so, so one, so, so one thing is, that is, I think woefully underused are testimonials and things. We, we, we, you, often we use, companies use testimonials from customers in an outward-facing way for marketing. They should use them as an inward-facing way-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
... to motivate employees. So if I see, if, if I'm working for a, um, um, uh, let's say I'm working for a software company-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
... and I am working on a team of, of, of coders and I never, I very rarely see customers. I'm just working on my part of the code and as part of this team, but I start seeing letters from someone who said, "Oh my gosh, this, this software transformed my life. It made me run my business a lot better. Oh my gosh, this software was so incredible, it allowed me to hi- uh, it, it, the efficiency was so great, it allowed me to hire three new people." Showing the w- the individuals those letters, it, it reminds them of the impact of what they're doing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- 28:16 – 38:28
The skill of sales
- SBSteven Bartlett
The salted caramel is my favorite. I've got the banana one here, which is the one my girlfriend likes, but for me, salted caramel is the one. (page turns) One of the things you said there, um, as you f- as you finished that piece was, was for me, the point about why instead of how was also a really good piece of sales advice. Right? And you wrote a book about-
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... sales, To Sell Is Human, 2012 you wrote that book. Um, when you write a book, I know-
- DPDaniel Pink
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... because I've written one myself, not written as many best-selling ones as you have or as many as you have, but even the journey of writing the book changed me, because you do so much research that you, you, you-
- DPDaniel Pink
Absolutely.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It almost seems like it does more for you than it does the reader. But, um, what did you learn about sales that you took away and that's stayed with you for the rest-
- DPDaniel Pink
Um.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... of your life from writing that book?
- DPDaniel Pink
I mean, so much on both, like, the, the big picture and on the-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
... and on the tactical level. So, so one thing is that, you know, the, the thesis of that book is, or the sort of animating ideas of that book are that like it or not, we're all in sales. So to some extent, I'm selling right now. I'm not necessarily selling a book. I'm selling s- saying, "Hey, I have something interesting. I'm making these claims, and I think they're more right than wrong, and you should believe them." All right? So no money changes hands, but that's a form of sales. All of us are doing that. When we're leading people, we're selling. When we're dealing with our kids, we're selling. All... You know? But the thing is, which most people haven't realized, is that sales has changed more in the last 10 years than the previous 1000 because everything we knew about sales, sale sales, has come from a world of information asymmetry, where the seller always had more information than the buyer. In all commercial transactions, since the beginning of civilization, the, the seller had more information than the buyer. This is why we have the principle of buyer beware. Buyer beware is entirely the result of information asymmetries, where the seller has more information than the buyer, the buyer doesn't have many choices, and the buyer doesn't have a way to talk back. That's how commercial transactions were since there were commercial transactions. And then, boop, 10 years ago, it all flipped, 'cause now we have something closer to information parity. And most people haven't wrapped their minds around what a significant change that is, and to me, it's not a difference in degree. It's a difference in kind. And so to sell today, where we're... in, in this landscape, where we're selling all the time and we're doing it in this remade landscape, calls for an entirely new approach.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And what's caused that, that shift? Is it because of the internet?
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah.Totally.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right?
- DPDaniel Pink
I-
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you can find out anything about what you want to buy, reviews, the, you know ...
- DPDaniel Pink
Absolutely. Absolutely. If you look at, say, even buying a car in the United States in the last 15 years, um, you know, literally, 50, 15 years ago, you go into a car dealer. That car dealer knows more about Toyotas, more about Camrys, more about cars than you ever will, all right? Buyer beware. Now, literally, the, the last car we bought, I mean, my wife walked into the car dealership with the factory invoice price of the car. "Hello, I know how much you paid-"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
"... to, to purchase this car for yourself, and I know what the going margin is for dealers in this area. Therefore ..."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
But that's true in everything. It's true in B2B. It's true in, in hiring. Um, you know, like I t- I ... Early in my life, I took a couple jobs that were really stupid to take, and if had there been something like LinkedIn or Glassdoor, I would have known in advance what a hellhole that, those places were.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DPDaniel Pink
You know? And so ... You know? And so, so this world of from information asymmetry to information parity is, is huge, and, and it calls for a different set of skills. Um, the skills of, again, simplicity. If you look at the research, right, and you pound on it for a year, trying to make sense of this research, you find that there are three key principles, and they start with A, B, and C. That was basically (inaudible)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DPDaniel Pink
That was luck. Um, attunement, which is, can you get out of your own head into someone else's head? Hugely important. Buoyancy, um, you know from, from being an entrepreneur that when you're selling anything, you're getting rejected all the time. One seller told me that ... He says, "I live in a sea, I live in an ocean of rejection." So buoyancy is how do you stay afloat in an ocean of rejection? And then clarity is, how do you go from solving existing problems to identifying hidden problems? 'Cause here's the thing, uh, problem-solving as a skill, totally overrated, because if your customer or prospect knows exactly what its problem is, they don't need you very much.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
They can figure it out themselves. Where do they need you more? When they don't know what their problem is, or they're wrong about their problem. So this premium has shifted from problem-solving to problem-finding. Can you surface problems? Can you identify hidden problems? Um, and then also, just think about information. It used to be that the very nature of expertise was that expertise meant you had access to information nobody else had. Now everybody has the information.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
So in- instead of being a good information access, you have to be a good information curator, a very different set of skills. Can you see the big picture? Can you synthesize? Can you simplify? Can you find the hidden patterns? Um, can you, you know, detect what's really going on beneath the welter of information? And so these are the skills that matter most in any kind of persuasive job, which is all jobs.
- 38:28 – 45:56
The secret to pitching
- DPDaniel Pink
in a book-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
... I can't see them shrink their face and look confused. I've lost them forever.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm. F- you also talk a lot about pitching.
- DPDaniel Pink
Oh.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And pitching is a huge part of-
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... I mean, pitching is everything, uh, you know. To get people to come on this podcast, sometimes we have to pitch.
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And to get, you know, someone to wanna date you, you're doing a pitch.
- DPDaniel Pink
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
To raise investment, I pitch.
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, what have you learned about the art of someone that's good at pitching and a good pitch?
- DPDaniel Pink
Okay. This, again, th- you, you asked earlier what this taught me, this, this-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
... this line of research taught me. And one of the biggest things it taught was ab- what I'm about to drop on you, which is that I'd gotten pitching completely wrong. All right, there's some really interesting research out of Stanford and out of U- UC Davis where they followed around movie producers who were going to studios to pitch, and they were rec- they w- they actually recorded these pitches, uh, a few hundred of them I think, and looked to see which were successful and which were not. And the most important criterion, the most important thing was, was the following, is, was that the people who were successful looked at the people that they were pitching as partners, all right? And so instead of... so I used to think pitching was, like, this kind of song and dance. Like, I'd do a little tap shoe, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
... da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da (pop sound) and they, like, take out their checkbook. No. What you, what you w- that's not the response that... well, I mean, that's great if you get that response. You don't get that response. The response you want is this, "Hey, that's interesting. Have you thought about X, Y, or Z?" The, the goal of pitching is to invite in the other side as a collaborator. That's the key for any kind of pitch, uh, at a, at a, at a, at a macro level. And that's totally changed the way that I pitch. I pitch in a much more collaborative way. In the past when I was younger, I, you know, had this elaborate dog and pony show in my head, thinking that if I executed that performance perfectly, I would get a cent.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
And that didn't happen.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I remember, it just reminded me of a time when I was running Social Chain, and I remember pitching to... we'd just launched in America and I was pitching to, I think it was Uber for their global account. And, um, one day late at night, I was looking at the email thread, and I saw at the bottom of the email thread that we called our salespeople, salespeople. And I remember thinking, like, is that... should we really be calling ourselves salespe- people, or, like, should we be calling ourselves... 'cause in the US, I think people call themselves, like, partnership managers.
- DPDaniel Pink
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And y- because the, the term sales, it's kinda like g- (laughs) I don't know if it's giving the game away, but it, it sounds transactional, like, I'm trying to f- s- give you s- you know. So, what do you think about that? Should we be changing our titles to, like, something else?
- DPDaniel Pink
S- such an interesting question. So, I intentionally, 'cause this is sort of the way I like to do things, I intentionally put the word sell in the title of that book because that's what we're doing. But I faced some resistance because what I, what I... I did some survey research in the US showing that when you ask people, "When you think of the word sales or selling, what's the first word that comes to mind?" And people had all these horrible words, pushy, sleazy-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Pressure.
- DPDaniel Pink
... skeezy, pressure, um, it... uh, so it has a bad association. So, but I, I wanted to try to win back the word, probably didn't do it that successfully, but for years... uh, I, I don't think people like being sold to. I mean, I think one of the interesting trends I see is, is when they... is w- referring to those folks as customer success, they're, "We're in customer success."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
I want someone to help me succeed.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yes. Oh, that's good news. We use that in our company in San Francisco. At the moment, we have a customer success manager, and that's... in fact, all of our terminology is, your job is to get customers from the, the door to success. So, that's good to know. And we did actually kill the, the sales title.
- 45:56 – 53:40
The type of sleeper you are
- DPDaniel Pink
a businessperson. But if you have something that can land with an impact, that can transform that person's life, then you, then you win.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then your other book, before we get onto your new book.
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When: Timing as a Science, Not an Art.
- DPDaniel Pink
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I was, I was rea- reading through all of the, the summary pages of that book, um, and I was reading about chronotypes, which I thought was a really interesting concept. That there's ... 'Cause it kind of challenges a lot of the conventional thinking. My understanding of chronotypes, and please correct me if I'm wrong here-
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... is that different people are motivated and awake and alert and do their best stuff at different times in the day. Is that accurate or is it slightly different?
- DPDaniel Pink
No, that's exactly right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I always thought-
- DPDaniel Pink
I mean, motivated, they're motivated in part, the motivation comes from the fact that there are some people who naturally wake up late and go to sleep late.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Naturally?
- DPDaniel Pink
Naturally. There are some people who, it's biological.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- DPDaniel Pink
There are some people who naturally wake up early and go to sleep early, and then there are plenty of us in the middle. And what the distribution tells us is that about 15% of us are very strong morning people, larks, naturally get up early and go to sleep early. About 20% of us are very strong owls. We naturally wake up late and go to sleep late. And about two-thirds of us are in the middle. And th- this, our chronotype changes over time somewhat, so little kids, very, very larky. Wake up early, start running around like crazy people from the get-go. Teenagers, as you might remember, in general, have a big shift toward lateness. We, you know, parents think teenagers are being lazy when they're sleeping in, when in fact their actually their bodies are changing. Teenagers have a, move to a late chronotype from about age 15 to age 25 or so. And then over time, most of us go back to general larkiness. But about one in five of us naturally wake up late and go to sleep late. And a lot of those people are really disadvantaged in conventional work situations.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I feel like you're talking about me.
- DPDaniel Pink
Oh, is that, is that you?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yes.
- DPDaniel Pink
Okay, so, okay, so here's els- here's what else we know about, about, uh, evening chronotypes. They test higher on intelligence tests.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, now you're just kissing my butt.
- DPDaniel Pink
No, they test higher on creativity.
- SBSteven Bartlett
S- same thing.
- DPDaniel Pink
They're also more likely to go to prison.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Uh, yes.
- DPDaniel Pink
So, okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yes. (laughs)
- DPDaniel Pink
So, all right, so it's a mixed bag.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yes.
- DPDaniel Pink
All right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Let's edit that out. (laughs)
- 53:40 – 1:07:50
The Power of Regret
- SBSteven Bartlett
7:00, 8:00, 9:00 at night.
- DPDaniel Pink
Classic.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Or after the gym, yeah.
- DPDaniel Pink
Classic owl behavior.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Ugh. I need to get an owl necklace.
- DPDaniel Pink
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, so you wrote this book, The Power of Regret.
- DPDaniel Pink
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And, I mean, you know that the title, o- in and of itself is challenging, because people don't perceive regret to be a thing that one should seek power from, or that... I mean, it's not a positive thing to, to have regrets in life, uh, according to culture. I guess my first question is, why, of all the things that you could write about, and you told me you've got some Google file of all these book ideas you have-
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... why did you have to write a book about regret?
- DPDaniel Pink
Because, um, I was dealing with some regrets of my own. Uh, I'm at a point in my life where I suddenly looked up and I have mileage on me, which is kind of shocking. But I also have some mileage ahead of me, and I want to be able to use it well. And when I look backward, I've realized that I had some regrets. And what I found is that despite what, exactly what you're talking about, this idea that we have in culture that, "Oh, we never talk about regrets. Regrets are bad. They make you weak. No regrets, no regrets. Forward thinking, positive," um, that when I talked to people about my regrets, they leaned in. They were interested and they wanted to share theirs. And so exa- I'm so glad you pointed that out, because I didn't go with a more...... elliptical side door title. I wanted to put that word regret in big, blue letters on the cover to challenge people and try to reclaim this word because regret is our most transformative emotion, if we treat it right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In the book, you talk about various types of regret.
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What were the types of regret that inspired you to write this book? You said you had your regrets there.
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah. Well, I mean, I had, so, the, the, well, it was really reckoning with these regrets, so I'll give you one regret that I had, um, uh, which is, I mean, I had plenty of them, which was, um, re- regrets about kindness. Um, when I was, when I was younger, when I was, uh, in, in, in, in primary school and secondary school and in, um, um, university, uh, and even beyond, um, a lot of the regrets that I collect, and I collected a huge number of regrets, I had a lot of regrets about bullying, people regretting bullying other people. I was never a bully. Um, but there were many, many times when I was younger where I saw people being excluded, not being treated right, being left out, and I knew. I saw it, and I knew it was wrong, and I didn't do anything, and that bugs me to this day. It bugs me to this day. Now-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- DPDaniel Pink
Hell yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah. I mean, I have, uh, yeah. It still bothers me. Even talking to you about it right now kind of-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- DPDaniel Pink
... my cortisol level has spiked a little bit, and the, here's the thing about regret. So I could say, I could take that and say, "No regrets! No regrets! No, never look backward, always look forward." Okay? That's a really bad idea. Or I could say, "Oh my God, I am the worst person in the world. I am just horrible," and that could, that's debilitating. That's an even worse idea. What I wanna do is actually listen to those regrets 'cause regret does two things for us. It clarifies, and it instructs. So, the fact that those regrets stuck with me for 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, that's telling me something. It's telling me what I value. It's telling me I actually value kindness. That, it's something that's important to me. And as I think about that, I think, "Well, who do the people, who are the people I admire?" A lot of the people I admire are kind people, people who treat others well. So it's clarifying what, and it's also instructing me what to do next. Now, this is mundane, but it, here's the thing. If I'm ever at a, if I'm ever at a social gathering or any kind of gathering, and I see, you know, sometimes there are people, like, clumped together talking, and every once in a while, you see s- people sort of left out on their, an island of their own, I always reach out, pull that person in. And that is a consequence of being embarrassed and regretful about letting people be left out earlier in my life. So, regrets clarify what value, what matters to us, and they instruct us on how to do better.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why... You use a couple of examples in the book, like, you know, Angel- Angela Jolie, her quotes-
- DPDaniel Pink
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and stuff like that. Why don't... Why are we living in a culture where we don't ever want to admit we have regrets? What is it about humans where the idea of having a regret is such a negative thing?
- DPDaniel Pink
It's, it's a, it's, it's several things. I mean, w- some, part of it is, is that regrets aren't fun. They're aversive, right? They, they don't feel good, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
They, they clarify and instruct, and we might want the clarification and the instruction, but you gotta have a little bit of the pain to begin with. So, so that, that's one thing. Second thing is that no one ever teaches us how to deal with negative emotions. That's the big problem, I think, is that, and so what happens is, is when people, especially younger people, feel a negative emotion, they think, "Oh my gosh, there's something wrong. There's something wrong with me. I'm broken."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DPDaniel Pink
"What, what's, what's, uh, this can't, this, everybody else is so posi-, everybody else is so positive, I must, there must be something wrong with me," when in fact they're just human beings. And the other, the third thing I think is that, uh, you alluded to this earlier, is that it's a very, we have become a very performative culture. We have a culture where we're performing all the time, rather than being authentic. And we like to perform courage. So when-
- 1:07:50 – 1:11:50
Counterfactual Thinking
- SBSteven Bartlett
when you can achieve the exact same effect from a piece of jewelry that's high-quality and costs 50 quid? That's why I buy Crafted.
- DPDaniel Pink
(paper rustles)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Counterfactual thinking.
- DPDaniel Pink
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really interesting topic that I was, uh, re- delving into your book, in, I think, chapter three about-
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... um, this idea that people have more if-onlys than they do-
- DPDaniel Pink
Yep.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... um, uh, at-leasts-
- DPDaniel Pink
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... in their life.
- DPDaniel Pink
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And the example that you gave, and I- I- I'm thinking about the graph on, in chapter three in my head, is about bronze medalists and silver medalists.
- DPDaniel Pink
Yep.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I found that really compelling. Can you talk a little bit about counte- counterfactual thinking and how we can live, um, better-
- DPDaniel Pink
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... more motivated lives by kind of ... Yeah.
- DPDaniel Pink
Well, it's something that it's, it's counterfactual thinking is something human beings do. What, sometimes, you know, for all of our flaws, our brains are freaking amazing. We can do all kinds of things. We can travel back and forth in time. We can imagine things that never happened, as our storytelling capacities are a very part of our, essential part of our cognition. And counterfactual thinking is just imagining, it's what the word says, events that run counter to the existing facts. And so there's some interesting evidence from the Olympics. If you show people photographs of Olympic medalists on the medal stand without showing them the medals they received themselves, what you'll find is that gold medalists look really happy. Not surprising, they've just won a gold medal. However, you know who else looks really happy? Bronze medalists. Bronze medalists are usually beaming. Silver medalists, they often don't look so happy, even though they finished second in the world. Here's what... And it's all about counterfactual thinking. The bronze medalist is doing what's called a downward counterfactual, imagining how things could've been worse. And so she says, "Well, at least I didn't finish in fourth place like that schmo over there who's going home without any medal at all." The silver medalist does what's called an upward counterfactual. She imagines how things could've been better. "Oh, if only I had, um, pedaled a little bit harder, if only I'd taken that turn a little bit faster, I would be a gold medalist." Here's the thing. Regret is an upward counterfactual. It begins with if only. "If only blabbity-blabbity-blah." At least make us feel better, but they don't make us do better. If onlys make us do better, make us feel worse, and they help us do better. They make us do better by making us feel worse. That's the thing. It's this, i- here's the th- this is, this is why we have a problem with it. In order to get the instruction, you need a little bit of discomfort, you need a little bit of pain. And, and, and what's interesting about us, and this is the thing, as you, exactly as you say, we are much more likely to conjure an if only than an at least. We're much more likely to do counterfactual thinking that makes us feel worse than feel better. Why? Are we masochists? No. Because we are programmed for survival, and regret is part of our cognitive machinery. By imagining how things could've been better and even, and dealing with a little bit of that pain, we improve in the future. That's how we learn, it's how we grow.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But in the world of social media, where every time I open up Instagram, I engage in upward counterfactual thinking because everyone's life is better than mine-
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... that's maybe a little bit too much feedback for a stable mental health.
- DPDaniel Pink
It's like, uh, let's go back to the joke. The doctor says, y- you go to the doctor, "Doctor, it hurts when I do this." And the doctor says, "Don't do that." (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs)
- DPDaniel Pink
Sp- you know? So, so-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- DPDaniel Pink
... I mean-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DPDaniel Pink
... I mean, um, y- here's the thing. We know a lot about this. We know a lot about social comparison, um, in the research, and social comparison, in general, makes people feel worse. Um, and so what you should be doing, the best way to improve is to compare yourself to your previous self. That's the best kind of counterfactual thinking. That's the best kind of regret. So if I go, let's go back to my kindest regret. I have a kindest regret, not because, "Oh my God, my friend Bill was kinder than me, and he posted on Instagram
- 1:11:50 – 1:29:20
Me & Daniel: Sharing our regrets
- DPDaniel Pink
his, all of his acts of kindness." That's ... who cares? I have regrets about kindness because I wasn't as kind as I could've been. But current me is kinder than old me, and that's progress, and that brings meaning to our lives.
Episode duration: 1:40:30
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