The Speaking Expert: How To Speak So Everyone Hears You! Julian Treasure

1. 0:00 – 4:20

   Why Being Heard Matters: Julian’s Path To TED Fame

   1. JTJulian Treasure0:00

      If you've got a boring voice, you can do something about it. (whoosh) It's possible. (music) Julian Treasure. The author of How To Be Heard.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:07

      Your TED Talk is the sixth most listened to TED Talk of all time.

   3. JTJulian Treasure0:11

      I've assembled seven deadly sins of speaking. Here they are. (whoosh) It's the most common mistake I see in business, in relationships. You're speaking to teams, you're trying to inspire people, you're trying to lead people, build relationships with people. This is part of your life and you've never paid any attention to it. We teach reading and writing in schools, we don't teach speaking, which is absolutely nuts. (whoosh) We're much keener to be heard than we are to listen to others. What's the biggest complaint in relationships? "He or she never listens to me." (whoosh) Our happiness and our well-being are fundamentally affected by whether we master the skills of speaking and listening. (whoosh)

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:47

      How does one speak with authority in work, in life, in my relationships? What advice can you give me? (whoosh)

   5. JTJulian Treasure0:52

      People often say to me, "I don't feel confident. How can I engage with people?" (whoosh) And the answer is ... (whoosh)

   6. SBSteven Bartlett0:58

      Before this conversation starts, I've got a favor to ask from you. 74% of people that watch this podcast frequently haven't yet hit the subscribe button and 9% of people haven't yet hit the bell to turn notifications on. The bigger this platform gets, the bigger the guests get. So if you could do me one favor, if you've ever enjoyed this podcast, please hit the subscribe button and turn notifications on. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (music) Julian, you've had, um, a pretty marvelous unique career and it's twisted and turned and twisted and turned in a really fascinating way, one in which I- I don't imagine anyone could have really predicted ahead of time. What do I need to know about you and your earliest years to inform the person listening to this of any context that ended up steering where you would end up in your life?

   7. JTJulian Treasure2:04

      I think, I mean, I was very fortunate to have a good education, um, which I didn't use to the max perhaps, um, but I appreciated enormously. But I think from a young age, I grew up with a confidence that all will be well. And that's, I suppose you could sum that up in the word faith. Not talking about religious faith necessarily, although I've been in and out of that in my life, but just a conviction that all will be well. And I think that's an important thing for, I mean, for entrepreneurs who tend to be the people who'll take the jump and say, "I- I think I'll get to the other side."

   8. SBSteven Bartlett2:46

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JTJulian Treasure2:46

      Whereas, a lot of people would be standing there going, "You know what? You do that."

   10. SBSteven Bartlett2:49

       Hmm.

   11. JTJulian Treasure2:51

       Uh, so when things have come along, I've been comfortable to go with the flow to- to say, "Well, let's see where this goes. I'm sure it'll be interesting."

   12. SBSteven Bartlett3:03

       I- I read that your TED Talk, um, on speaking and being heard, I think that's the one-

   13. JTJulian Treasure3:09

       Mm-hmm.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett3:10

       ... um, is the sixth or seventh most listened to TED Talk of all time, which is staggering 'cause there are thousands and thousands of TED Talks. I've done one, nobody listened.

   15. JTJulian Treasure3:20

       (laughs)

   16. SBSteven Bartlett3:20

       Um, and s- so I w- when I saw that, I thought, how much did that moment change your life, if at all, um, and can you just tell me about the decision to do that talk that day and how it came about?

   17. JTJulian Treasure3:33

       Well, it was the fifth, actually, of five talks I did, um, in a- in a row, five separate TEDs. Uh, TEDGlobal was in the UK in Oxford originally, and the first one I did was about how sound effects, it's The Four Effects of Sound, it's called. Uh, looking back at that, that's a very younger, slimmer me on stage, it's quite funny looking at it now. Um, nobody had ever used sound before in a TED Talk like that, so they were quite excited about it. And then I got to do... The next one was about sound and health and then one about listening, which is, you know, as you know, k- kind of a religion for me, and then one about sound and the environment, the way architects design for the eyes, not the ears. So I had those four TED Talks

2. 4:20 – 13:00

   Why We Crave Being Heard More Than We Crave Listening

   1. JTJulian Treasure4:20

      to kind of practice, I suppose-

   2. SBSteven Bartlett4:21

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JTJulian Treasure4:22

      ... and become a master, I suppose, of doing a TED Talk. I mean, it's- it's a discipline. You have 12 minutes or maybe even, I think, my first one was six.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett4:32

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JTJulian Treasure4:33

      You can't gabble. You can't c- try and cram too much in. You have to be very clear about the big idea, the why would people be interested in this, the what's the journey I'm taking people on, where am I moving them from to. And you need to know how to do it, how to stand on that stage, on that red dot, and project it with confidence and clarity and engage people in coming on that journey with you. So I suppose by the time I did that fifth one, I was more expert th- uh, uh, in giving TED Talks than most people would ever have a chance to be 'cause I'd done four before, and that's unusual.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett5:12

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JTJulian Treasure5:12

      So I certainly, when I walked on stage, I felt quite good on that talk and- and yeah, I think I nailed it. You know, I- I'd- I'd rehearsed a lot and, you know, we can talk about the principles of public speaking and so forth, which I, you know, I've done a lot of work on, but I did a good job and the audience really responded. There was a great feeling in the room. So when I walked off, I felt that I'd absolutely, you know, done that one justice. They didn't release it for a year and I thought, "Oh, maybe they didn't like it." You know?

   8. SBSteven Bartlett5:45

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JTJulian Treasure5:45

      But I do remember Bruno Giussani, who's one of the- the guys who kind of runs TED, in Edinburgh Castle, bumped into me, uh, about three hours after I gave that talk and he said, "Hail."

   10. SBSteven Bartlett5:57

       (laughs)

   11. JTJulian Treasure5:58

       And I thought, "Ah, okay. Well, Bruno wasn't there-"

   12. SBSteven Bartlett6:01

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JTJulian Treasure6:01

       "... so..."... obviously, word is getting around that- that there's some good stuff in there.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett6:06

       And- and HAISL, the- the acronym that you delivered in that talk about how to- to be a great public speaker.

   15. JTJulian Treasure6:12

       Mm-hmm.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett6:12

       Um, honesty, authenticity, integrity, and love.

   17. JTJulian Treasure6:15

       Correct.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett6:15

       Um, how did- when that TED Talk came out, how did your life change? 'Cause I'm- 'cause I know how the algorithms work. It takes some time for things-

   19. JTJulian Treasure6:24

       Mm-hmm.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett6:24

       ... to sort of pick up momentum, but once they get going and the algorithm says, "The watch time on this episode is very, very good, so we're gonna just keep showing it to more and more people." So it might have taken some time.

   21. JTJulian Treasure6:32

       Mm-hmm.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett6:32

       But how did- how did things change for you at that point? And also, your orientation personally and professionally.

   23. JTJulian Treasure6:38

       Yeah. It took off quite quickly once it came out. Um, I had long since kind of got past watching the numbers every day.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett6:48

       (laughs)

   25. JTJulian Treasure6:48

       You know, the first TED Talk I did, you know, I was obsessive. "Oh! 10,000 people watched this," you know, and then- an- an- I- I'm sure everybody who does a TED Talk starts off like that. Um, but this one clearly was- it was going ballistic quite quickly. Um, it went up, you know, in a- in a period of months, it was in the top 20, I think. And yes, it has changed my life fundamentally, really, really powerfully, because I have spent many, many hours on planes going all over the world delivering talks, getting paid to deliver talks. Uh, so my career kind of shifted from running The Sound Agency, an audio branding company in the UK, uh, which is, you know, a relatively small business, um, and writing, you know, my first book, Sound Business. I then got the opportunity to- to write the second book, which was off the back of that TED Talk. I got the opportunity to travel the world, meet people, um, give talks, and spread the message, which is the important thing to me, 'cause as I say, I'm a l- listening evangelist. I- I- I am passionate about persuading people to start listening. Um, so yeah. It moved my career totally onto a different track, a track of public speaking, of writing books, of being a speaker and an author professionally.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett8:10

       And in hindsight, when you look at the s- the wild success, I mean, the TED Talks combined have over 100 million views now, right? So that one particular talk, I think it's about 40 million views on YouTube alone.

   27. JTJulian Treasure8:21

       Probably right. I mean-

   28. SBSteven Bartlett8:22

       Yeah. 400 and some-

   29. JTJulian Treasure8:22

       ... Chris Anderson says- c- 'cause you've got ted.com.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett8:25

       Mm-hmm.
3. 13:00 – 23:40

   The Vocal Toolbox: Transforming A ‘Boring’ Voice

   1. JTJulian Treasure13:00

      content in a boring way, I can really make an effort and listen to them, and it's worth it at the end. Whereas if somebody's delivering vapid nonsense in a brilliant way, it's just irritating, actually. So I- I get that, but I do think they're both important. I mean, it is a shame if somebody's saying something incredibly important and they're not using what I call the vocal toolbox. You know, there's all this stuff that we can deploy if we start paying attention to our voice. You know, if you've got a boring voice, you can do something about it. It's possible. Get a vocal coach, work on it, you know, take up a breathing practice, improve your posture, uh, just practice prosody- prosody, uh, the intonation, you know, really exaggerating it. I'm a- I'm a great fan of doing this, it's the kind of thing that actors do, singers do. And many times, for example, I've- I've given talks where I've been looking at an audience of CEOs, hundreds or thousands of them, and I say, "How many of you have to talk in public?" Forest of hands goes up. "How many of you have had formal vocal training?" Three or four people. And I go, "What? This is part of your life." It's an important part of your ... You're speaking to teams, you're trying to inspire people, you're trying to lead people, you're trying to communicate, build response, uh, r- relationships with people. Uh, you're trying to move, you know, mountains with your voice, and you've never paid any attention to it. It's tragic, you know, we s- we teach reading and writing in schools, we don't teach speaking or listening, which is absolutely nuts.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett14:40

      It's funny, 'cause I ... When people ask me, I always say that the most important skill you can learn is to sell, because you're selling all the time. I'm selling right now, I'm s- I meet a girl in a bar, I'm just gonna sell to her to try and get- get her number. I have a girlfriend, I wouldn't do that. Um, I'm selling ... In business, I'm selling to my teams, I'm en- trying to inspire investors to join us. It's ca- this ca- my life is full of the sales pitch, whether I'm selling myself or an idea or a vision or whatever. Um, but I've never really reflected on the fact that the foundation of that selling is this instrument.

   3. JTJulian Treasure15:05

      Of course. Well, actually even more than that, below that, what's the most important part of the sales conversation? Listening. It's not the speaker, it's the listening, listening to understand the other person, to go into their island, to understand what is it, where- what's their pain point? What is it I can solve or help them with here? Because if you can't, it's a waste of time. How many times have we all had that irritating sales conversation where somebody's trying to sell something we don't at all need, and because they're not listening. So patter, you know, it can be good, but really well-targeted talking to somebody to whom we have listened, respected, and understand, that's a different thing, that's powerful.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett15:49

      What- what- what would I have to do, 'cause there's lots of people that are out listening to this podcast, that start their own podcast and want to be a podcaster, and many of them message me and they want to come and sit here on this podcast one day. What are the types of things, um, you would advise someone to do with their voice to be a- to be heard?

   5. JTJulian Treasure16:08

      Well, treating your voice as a skill is the first thing, so becoming conscious that this is a skill, it's not a natural capability. Just like listening is a skill, hearing is a capability, listening is a skill. So I very much talk about these two things as skills, speaking and listening are skills that we do not teach in school or university, which is mad, so we have to take it upon ourselves because they matter, you know? They- they affect our outcomes in life, they affect, I- I always say our happiness, our effectiveness, and our wellbeing are fundamentally affected by whether we master the skills of speaking and listening. So in terms of speaking, understanding there's a vocal toolbox is the first thing. So things like breathing, and your voice is just breath, that's all it is, breath moving across your vocal chords. And in order to speak well, it's very good to develop a- a breathing practice, maybe you do yoga, maybe something else. Uh, Jane, my wonderful fiancee, has taught me a breathing practice which is very, very simple, anybody can do it, uh, a- and it's called resonant breathing, which is breathing in through your nose (inhales) and then out through your mouth like as if you're blowing (exhales) so you can hear it. And you practice that and lengthen ... You count and lengthen the in-breath and lengthen the out-breath, and also, we want to be breathing from our diaphragm, from our stomach, 'cause, you know, if you watch a baby breathing, it's their stomach that goes up and down, not- not the chest. So just developing that. I mean, I wonder, people listening to this podcast, when's the last time you took a really deep breath? We tend to breathe, you know, just to a fraction of our lungs, like a little bird, but with your voice, it's very important to breathe deeply and to get into that practice. Also a great cure for nerves. You know?

   6. SBSteven Bartlett18:03

      Ah, yeah.

   7. JTJulian Treasure18:03

      If you come on stage and you're a little bit like this, "Hello, everybody," then a big, deep breath will settle the voice right down, so it's a really powerful thing to do.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett18:13

      That breathing practice, what is it doing, then, in terms of improving my performance? I've got the nerves part, but in terms of my vocal cords or ...

   9. JTJulian Treasure18:21

      It gets you into a-- well, what is it Aristotle said? "Excellence is, uh," no. "We are what we do repeatedly, so excellence is not an act, it's habit." So it gets you into the habit of breathing better and deeper. (inhales deeply) And you know, when you're speaking in public, there's nothing wrong with taking a deep breath and filling your lungs. Actors do it all the time. I mean, a singer can sing for the most enormously long note. Uh, you know? What's the world record for static apnea? 28 minutes, something like that, lying at the bottom of a swimming pool on one breath, you know? And that's static apnea. Then you've got the free-divers. There are things we can do with our lungs which are beyond imagining, virtually, and yet most of us just breathe in little tiny, tiny breaths. So it's good for you as well to exercise your lungs, to inflate them. I, I had, uh, unfortunately a few years ago a pulmonary embolism, which is quite scary. I mean, it can kill you, and that's blood clots going to the lung. They have to go through the heart to get to the lung so that, you know, that's where you can die. Um, and so my lungs are not as efficient as they were before that, and it's made me even more conscious of the importance of deep breathing, of expanding the lung capacity. It's part of being healthy, apart from anything else, to have great lung capacity.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett19:48

       Is that what exercise does?

   11. JTJulian Treasure19:49

       Yeah.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett19:49

       Kind of inadvertently?

   13. JTJulian Treasure19:50

       Partly.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett19:51

       Yeah.

   15. JTJulian Treasure19:51

       Absolutely. Releases all sorts of good, the happy chemicals into your system as well, exercise, but uh, breathing is very, very good for you, generally, and we don't do enough of it.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett20:03

       So I've done my breathing exercises. I'm, I'm heading onto the Diary of a CEO podcast. What else would I, would I have to, um, do to be heard from, by the listener? What other sort of tips or skills or...?

   17. JTJulian Treasure20:15

       Well, I think variety, just in general, is a very important aspect of speaking. So you talked about people who are monotonic, and that literally means one tone. So if I speak like this through the whole podcast, it would be extremely boring for people. There's not a lot of intonation going on there. I don't get any emotional resonance speaking like that. It's, uh, it's, it's just boring. So intonation, the up and down of speaking, is really important. It's also crucial to be sensitive to cultural differences in that. For example, in Scandinavia, they have much restricted prosody or intonation, um, compared to, say, the Latin countries, where, you know, people are like, "What is it? Very up and down like this," uh, the whole time. I'm croaking here. Um, I remember doing a talk in, in Finland in the amazing, uh, concert center in Helsinki which was designed by a brilliant architect called Toyota, um, and is acoustically unbelievable, and at the end of my talk, there was a little tiny ripple of applause, and I thought, "Oh, I bombed. They didn't like it." You know, if that had been America, it'd be whooping and hollering and whatever going on, and I went down for a coffee and people came up to me and said, "Thank you. That was the best talk we have had for some years." That's Finns for you. They're very taciturn, quiet people. They don't get very excited much, so ... Unless they've had a vodka, perhaps. But you have to be adjusting to the prosody or prosody of the audience you're speaking to.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett21:50

       What's prosody?

   19. JTJulian Treasure21:51

       Prosody is both intonation, so the up and down delivery, which is root one for emotion. It's, it's absolutely crucial in speaking, and it's also the rhythm of your speaking, the, the gaps you leave, and the emphasis you put on words. So it's understanding how to... No, it's not just reading a script flat. It's putting your personality into what you're saying, and that makes all the difference in the world. So anybody who... It, it's interesting. I mean, I have friends who run, um, voiceover studios, and actors come in to read things, TV commercials, books and whatnot. Some actors can read, some can't. It's not a skill that everybody possesses to be able to read something or speak in an interesting way that's not a script you learn and then you really, really work on it and so forth.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett22:46

       Hm.

   21. JTJulian Treasure22:46

       Just reading something. It's quite technical, actually. You have to get yourself out of the way. So yes, working on your voice is, um, about variety. It's about breathing. It's about being comfortable with silence, for example, not filling every tiny little gap with "ums," "ers," "you knows," "you know what I means," verbal tics. So all of these things, it's quite important to record yourself, listen back, and start to take it as a skill and as mastery. Be- become your own coach, effectively. I mean, I'm sure you watch back your podcasts and there's always something to learn. There's always something to look at and to say, "Oh, uh, okay, I could have not done that," or, "I could have said that better," or whatever it might be. And that's how we become masters. And of course,

4. 23:40 – 33:40

   Breath, Nerves, And Variety: Foundations Of Vocal Power

   1. JTJulian Treasure23:40

      you can get a coach, a vocal coach, a singing coach, a drama coach, an acting coach, a speaking coach. There are lots of them out there.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett23:47

      Hm.

   3. JTJulian Treasure23:48

      So anybody who's, for example, got restricted timbre... I mean, timbre is the quality of your voice, and we tend to like voices that we would describe in the way we would describe a hot chocolate, rich, dark, warm, sweet, smooth, all of those words. If that's not you listening to this, I mean, you have a great voice, but if it's, if it's not... If, if somebody's got a, a thin, squeaky voice or a scratchy voice or whatever it may be, get a vocal coach. It can be worked on. These are things that normally we're in a habit. The way we speak is partly derived from our physical being. I mean, we have a body.... there are resonant cavities, we have vocal chords. But it's also how we use it, and that's much more important. Anybody can learn to maximize their voice and to make the most, the most of it. So, that's about the instrument itself and then how you play it, what emotion you put into it. Uh, whether you're conscious. You know the thing I love most about public speaking? It's making me more conscious in that moment than anywhere else. Standing on a stage, you know, I've, I've talked to audiences of 11,000 people. There's a big spotlight, there's cameras on you, you're standing on a stage, 11,000 people are looking at you. If you're not conscious in that moment- (laughs)

   4. SBSteven Bartlett25:09

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JTJulian Treasure25:09

      ... you've got a problem. You know? So, every gesture, every moment of that is maximum consciousness of being me and, and communicating with those people. So, it's kind of like switching the light on to maximum intensity, and I really love that. That, that experience has colored the way I treat life in general now, 'cause, uh, you know, it's my, my biggest passion is to become more and more conscious, to grow a little every day, to become more conscious every day. And speaking helps with that.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett25:43

      I've never really talked about it before, but we, um, we've deleted a few episodes of this podcast. So... Don't worry, this is a perfect episode, so this is not-

   7. JTJulian Treasure25:51

      (laughs)

   8. SBSteven Bartlett25:51

      ... going anywhere. But what will happen is we've had a guest come, and they might be... Uh, honestly, there's some cases where they are the biggest in the world in their industry. And I, I can think of one particular example where if I said the name of the guest that we had, the episode we had deleted, people would be shocked because I believe they are one of the biggest stars in the world. They have like 50, 60 million followers online. Um, and then there's another individual I'll, I'll think about who, if I said the name now, everyone knows this person, they're a legend in many respects. Um, but we deleted that episode as well. And content is a factor, but the other factor that really, really does, um, r- result in that decision is I- I think it will be really difficult to listen to. And I feel like I have this sense of responsibility on a Monday and a Thursday when we publish, that even if they don't know the name, our audience will listen.

   9. JTJulian Treasure26:35

      Mm.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett26:36

       And we see that in the numbers. If we publish a no-namer or a superstar, we get the same amount of clicks in the opening 24 hours, roughly, because people are going, "I don't care. I, I trust this team to put people out there." So, I just wanted to really state that, 'cause there's... I know there's a lot of people that wanna come on this podcast. There's a lot of, like, big CEOs that contact us. And one of the most important things in my decision criteria is literally how engaging they are at speaking. And from that, I mean the instrument.

   11. JTJulian Treasure27:02

       Mm.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett27:02

       The delivery. Um, so I just don't think it's an... Uh, it was funny, when you were talking, I was thinking about individuals that I've said no to, but... And they don't... Maybe I should give them feedback, but maybe that's not my place. It's literally about delivery, um, so often. So, let's, let's continue then on the thread of, of delivery. You're talking about standing there speaking in front of 11,000 people on a stage. One of the things that I'm sure would stop most of us from even, uh, endeavoring to do such a thing is a lack of confidence. You've got almost 100,000 students online, some- something crazy like that, that are all coming to do your courses and to learn from you. Confidence must be one of the first conversations you, y- you have, right? To get someone to be a great speaker?

   13. JTJulian Treasure27:44

       Yeah, it's important. Although it's interesting to note that a lot of the people who've given some of the best TED Talks, like me, are actually introverts. I'm not an extrovert. Uh, it's not that natural for me to do these things. And s- it's, uh, it's also true of people like Susan Cain. Introvert. You can stand on a stage and you can overcome the fear, which is part of growing as a human being, I think. Um, doing things which are challenging and pushing through the barriers and doing it anyway. So, yes, confidence is important. I mean, we could have a long conversation about confidence because I was educated in a top public school. And I think one of the things that top public schools in the UK do is to give you an overbearing arrogance and, um, to make you absolutely convinced that you know everything about everything. And more than that, the ability to sound convincing and to persuade people that that is in fact the case.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett28:44

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JTJulian Treasure28:45

       And it's taken me decades to get over that, actually, to discover humility and to discover the importance of being, you know, authentic about what I actually can do. So, yes, I think public speaking, like anything else, it's like riding a bike. If you do it enough, you become confident, you know? Uh, the first time you or I drove a car, our hands were welded to the wheel, you know, and we were shaking with terror. Now, you drive a car and you think about everything but driving, (laughs) you know? So, it's just falling off a log. I've done enough speaking now that I do not get frightened anymore. Nervous? Yes. Nervous is good. Nervous gives you the right chemicals to perform at your peak. So, I never want to lose contact with that. A- and I think that's true of anybody. I mean, a professional footballer before a game, nerves will be there, adrenaline. It's, it's taking you up to the next level. Once you get bored with what you're doing, should you be doing it? That's the, the, a big question. But the confidence to do it comes from practice. And that's what I always say to people. Um, it's part of my course. You know, I talk about doing things, uh, just, just doing the thing. Speaking in public. Toastmasters, for example. You know, they're in every city in the world. You can go and join a Toastmasters chapter and, and start speaking in front of people. That's what they do. And as you do it, you become more and more familiar with the- what goes on and that, you know, it isn't actually the end of the world. Nobody is actually going to stand up and, and call you out for being a useless numpty. (laughs)

   16. SBSteven Bartlett30:26

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JTJulian Treasure30:26

       Uh, you know, or in, uh, you know, even if you forget your words, you can actually say, "I'm terribly sorry. I've forgotten where I was," and everybody... I mean, I've seen that happen at TED.... okay, people who rely on memory, which is a- a very, very high risk strategy to me. You know, I always use slides. But if you go on stage and you've got a memory palace or a chain or one of those roots, and you're reli- relying on that, and you lose, the chain breaks, and you're cast adrift in an ocean of terror (laughs) . I've seen it happen, and what happens when somebody goes red and starts shaking and says, "I'm so sorry, I've completely forgotten what comes next," the audience start to applaud 'cause they're on your side. It's not the end of the world, and actually, that can make a deeper relationship than being slick and perfect and- and brilliant at every moment.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett31:14

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JTJulian Treasure31:15

       I've seen people who are overconfident, over-rehearsed, where you know every one of those gestures has been rehearsed a hundred times, and it was there for the r- I mean, there was a time at TED when it was almost de rigueur to cry in a TED Talk. And, uh, I remember seeing, there was a talk by, uh, you know, an international banker or something about economics, uh, who halfway through talked about his father who had deceased, and the tears came. I thought, "Oh, please." This is- this is like being put in by a coach who says, "You've got to connect emotionally," and it was just incongruous really. So, I think it's all about being yourself. I mean, that's the A of HAIL, being authentic. Uh, being yourself is fine. It's so much easier than trying to be somebody else. And having the faith that if you are yourself and you've got a good message, that people will be with you on the journey and will be on your side. That's certainly the case at TED. People don't go to... It's not a stand-up comedy night where people throw things and heckle. It's a place where people expect to learn, to be transported, to be changed by almost every talk. So, if the talk does that, they love you.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett32:28

       On the- on the A point in HAIL, I've come to learn that I think humans are much better at spotting authenticity than we give them credit for.

   21. JTJulian Treasure32:36

       Big time.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett32:37

       I- I think... So, from our own perspective, we think we can blag it-

   23. JTJulian Treasure32:42

       Mm-hmm.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett32:43

       ... and we- we underestimate how, um, how much the viewer, or the person I'm trying to blag it to, understands I'm not being authentic. Like, we think we're better, much better actors than we actually are.

   25. JTJulian Treasure32:54

       Mm-hmm.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett32:54

       And- and it's funny, the, one of the things that's put this front of mind for me at the moment is, about three weeks ago, there was a CEO that went viral on LinkedIn because he had fired multiple members of his team, and then he'd taken a photo of himself crying and uploaded it with like a really s- like, sorry caption, like, "I'm so sorry. T- Today I had a really tough day. I had to fire members of my team." And as you look at that, it just feels wrong. It's almost hard to explain it, but the, I think your mind goes, "Well, he would've had to cry." A very unnatural thing to do mid-crying is to pick up your phone and take a selfie-

   27. JTJulian Treasure33:28

       Totally.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett33:28

       ... and then to go to social media. So, on that point of authenticity, um, is your suspicion the same, that we, people are much better at spotting someone being inauthentic than we believe, than we understand?

5. 33:40 – 44:40

   Prosody, Silence, And The Art Of Self-Coaching

   1. SBSteven Bartlett33:40

   2. JTJulian Treasure33:40

      I think so. We- we live in a world where, um, social media and, um, viral opinion-spreading make it quite hard to be truly inauthentic. I mean, there's a lot of companies, a lot of individuals who do what's now called virtue signaling.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett33:57

      Mm-hmm.

   4. JTJulian Treasure33:58

      And people can spot that, you know, we can- w- we can catch the whiff of manipulative, inauthentic stances that are trying to put us across in, um, the mo- the best- the most acceptable way, whatever the current, you know, meal is, whatever the current, um, style is to be utterly acceptable and socially right. So, to me, this is, a- again, this is part of the human need to be right and to be seen to be right, which is a huge problem in the world right now, I think. I mean, we're seeing silos all over the world. The internet has made this way, way, way worse, where, you know, you go online and then you say, "There you are, I know I was right. 10,000 people agree with me." Yeah, but there's a million who don't. But you don't go and ask them. You just go and find the people you agree with, uh, in order to validate your point of view. And that is why we get these extreme, you know, um, conspiracy theory silos of people who have nutty views and are persuading each other that they're right because they only talk to each other. They don't go and check, you know, kick the tires of the thing and check, is there an alternative hypothesis here that would be perhaps worth entertaining? So, I think that's a bit dangerous, uh, at the moment, and it's all about this need to be right. And, of course, what's the easiest way for me to be right is to make you wrong. If you're wrong, I am right-er.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett35:23

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JTJulian Treasure35:23

      And that is a slippery slope. That's a slippery slope of depersonalization, of dehumanization, of, um, bias and- and hatred. And, you know, at the bottom of that slope is the kind of the ISIS answer to the world, "Disagree with me, I'll kill you." And so, that's a- a dangerous slope, and the media have been contributing to that slope, you know, this, all this outrage addiction that we see in the world. "That's outrageous. Somebody's to blame. Somebody should be punished." And that's all, uh, me saying, "Yeah, somebody should be punished. I'm right. They're wrong." So, it's this kind of ego fire that we have building inside of us, the desire to be the rightest person.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett36:02

      And to cancel everyone else that's... (laughs)

   8. JTJulian Treasure36:04

      Absolutely. Cancel, cancel, cancel, and make people wrong, left, right, and center be judgmental. That's one of the seven deadly sins I talked about in that- in that TED Talk is judgmentalism, is- is- is pointing the finger at people, you know, the kind of parent whose son or daughter comes home and says, "I got 95% on the test," and says, "What happened to the other five?"

   9. SBSteven Bartlett36:23

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JTJulian Treasure36:24

       You know, that's... It- it's difficult to be around people who are that finger-pointy.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett36:29

       The other thing with- with- with all- with that A point in HAIL, authenticity, that I've come to learn actually from doing this podcast is, um, there's a real cost mentally to being inauthentic for a long period of time. And I see- I see it time and time and time again-

   12. JTJulian Treasure36:41

       Mm-hmm.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett36:41

       ... when I sit here with people who were forced to be in the media or who were first forced to- not forced, but chose to play a role or a character in the public eye, and then their identity became... They kind of, their true authentic self became imprisoned by this public identity that they felt they had to keep up, and then the midlife crisis comes. It's usually like 35, 45, where they have some kind of burnout, blowout. They find themselves, in the case of one of my guests last week, just coming home and crying every day and having no idea why they're crying because they'd spent a decade being in- inauthentic in every interaction-

   14. JTJulian Treasure37:14

       Mm-hmm.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett37:15

       ... because they felt they had to, to, sometimes to survive because of some early trauma. Um, and we don't talk about that enough that, and I've, do you know what, I've learned it from doing this podcast myself, as in the most liberating thing for me ever is to sit here in my socks, in my house, saying whatever I want for three hours and knowing that, quite honestly, if I tweeted it, I'd get dragged. It'd get, quote, "Retweeted," people take it out of context and goes into different echo chambers and they all try and, um, s- s- find a way to get likes off what I've said. Whereas I can sit here and say fucking anything-

   16. JTJulian Treasure37:46

       Yeah.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett37:46

       ... about pretty much anything in my most authentic self. It's like a weight I get to lift every day. Um, and it's been so good for my mind.

   18. JTJulian Treasure37:54

       But do you know what the biggest challenge is about being authentic?

   19. SBSteven Bartlett37:58

       What's that?

   20. JTJulian Treasure37:59

       Well, it's knowing who you actually are.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett38:02

       Yeah. Good point.

   22. JTJulian Treasure38:02

       So what are your values, Steven?

   23. SBSteven Bartlett38:04

       It's a good question 'cause- 'cause, you know, when people ask this k- I've t-... Ah. I'm so scared of saying what I think people want to hear. How do I know what my values are?

   24. JTJulian Treasure38:14

       You write them down. You think about it.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett38:16

       What I would, what I would write down... I'm worried that what I would write down are things that have been so deeply conditioned to be my values by society.

   26. JTJulian Treasure38:27

       Well, okay. Yeah. That's worth challenging, isn't it? So this is a great exercise. I mean, I strongly recommend everybody does this 'cause not many people do. You know, we just live our life in this kind of, um, bumping into things, making it up as we go along way.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett38:40

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JTJulian Treasure38:40

       If you have values, that's your moral compass. If you have values, that's- that's you tending to dis- define who you are, and then you can be authentic.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett38:47

       What is a value? Uh, this sounds like a crazy thing for me to say, but I wanna be really clear. Like, what is a value?

   30. JTJulian Treasure38:53

       It's something that you believe in that is, um, what they call in business a North Star for your life. It's something that you will sacrifice to achieve. So I'll tell-
6. 44:40 – 55:30

   Confidence, Introversion, And Growing Through Public Speaking

   1. SBSteven Bartlett44:40

      Um, these days, as I'm sure a lot of you know, flexibility matters more than ever before because the tectonic plates on which we've built our businesses are changing overnight, especially for SME business owners, which is why I've partnered with Vodafone Business, who've created a new flexible business solution for small to medium-sized businesses called Vodafone Pulse Connect. This package includes all of your key comms tools, like mobile broadband, cloud calling, and collaboration. And the brilliant thing about it is you can change your package as your priorities shift, adding and removing users, and even tailoring services to each employee. So you only pay for what you need, and that is so important when you're trying to run an efficient business. You can build your personalized package online with a digital configurator so you get one simple package with one bill, saving you time and saving you money. So to find out more search Vodafone Pulse Connect. Terms and conditions apply. Just picking up on that point about, um, if you were in their shoes, y- y- if you had lived their life-

   2. JTJulian Treasure45:34

      Oh, yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett45:34

      ... you'd be doing these steps.

   4. JTJulian Treasure45:35

      Validation. Yeah, yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett45:35

      Yeah. What do you... What, what is this validation would you mean?

   6. JTJulian Treasure45:38

      Uh, well, it's part of active listening. So, you know, we talk about listening. Um, I talk about listening positions, and one of those is active listening, so it's a place to listen from. And in active listening, to me, there are three stages. So stage one is reflection, where I repeat exactly what you said without coloring it, without, um, making it make sense in the way that I understand. But I say something along the lines of, "Okay, what I just heard you say is..." which can be a bit formulaic. Or, you know, "So you said this," or, "So are you saying this?" So I'm checking that I actually got what you said. I heard you. It's amazing how we don't very often do that.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett46:22

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JTJulian Treasure46:22

      So stage one is reflection, which is used in the therapeutic professions a great deal. Uh, "I hear you say this." Stage two-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett46:33

      Is this stages of being a great listener?

   10. JTJulian Treasure46:35

       It, it, it's a very important form of listening. It's not appropriate all the time to be in active listening, um, because it's kind of a sledgehammer to crack a nut in social conversations, for example. You know, if we were sitting in a, in a pub or a coffee house and I'm going, "What I heard you say, Steven, is this."

   11. SBSteven Bartlett46:54

       (laughs)

   12. JTJulian Treasure46:54

       Well, it... Uh, and, and then validation goes, um, "Okay, I understand. It makes sense that you would feel that. I totally get why you would think that's true. I to-... I disagree with you, but I understand why you think that." Because then I'm thinking about your background and your road to this conversation, and we've come different roads to this conversation, and you will have different life experiences. So validation is really important. That's the empathy bit of active listening. And once I've reflected and validated, then we're into stage three, which is I can contribute. So as opposed to me invalidating. "Uh, oh, don't... No, that's nonsense that you... Why would you think that?" You know, we do so much invalidating in the world of other people's positions, and you can't sell to somebody or persuade somebody if you invalidate them as a human being. It's really important to validate, to show that you understand where that person's coming from, even if you completely disagree, then we can start to put things together and make sense and move forward.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett47:59

       I'm thinking of every romantic conflict I've ever had, but also I... You took me back to many client meetings where the client brings forth a concern or a problem, um, and in that moment, you r-... Even if you disagree, you know you have to show you've accepted their concern and then use that acceptance, that place of empathy, to move them to another place of thinking. But also I th-... Uh, you know, obviously the most obvious scenario people will think of is with their partners when they're trying to do conflict resolution or trying-

   14. JTJulian Treasure48:29

       Oh.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett48:29

       You know?

   16. JTJulian Treasure48:29

       So what's the biggest complaint in relationships? He or she never listens to me. And that's not just about hearing the words. It's about validating the other person or invalidating the other person. And, and if we do that as a habit, uh, it can be very damaging. There's a thing actually, uh, called stress-induced audio dysfunction, SIAD, uh, which can afflict people when there's a noise that they are...... exposed to a great deal and they don't like, and they psychologically start to wipe it out. (inhales deeply) So for example, my father, in the later years of his life, was deaf at the frequency of my mother's voice, and that's not uncommon in relationships where one partner is in the habit of hectoring or nagging at the other partner, and they simply cease to be able to hear it because it's a noise they don't enjoy, just like, uh, you know, it- it can happen to people with industrial noise or irritating noises. Uh, so it is really important not to be invalidating somebody as a habit, and we can easily fall into that habit, and it's so powerful in relationship to be validating people. You know, one of the seven deadly sins I talk about in- in that TED Talk is negativity, and that's a very strong habit that people can fall into. So you can audit that. How often do I say the word no, or not, or can't? Anything negative like that. Because if that's a habit that you fall into, it tends to lead to invalidating other people a great deal. "I can't do that. I c- I don't see why you'd think that. You can't be serious." You know, and- and that's not a very nice way to behave with people. Even if you don't agree, even if they are being stupid, "I can see why you think that."

   17. SBSteven Bartlett50:24

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JTJulian Treasure50:24

       Now, would you like an alternative perspective? Can I give you a- a different way of looking at it that might be useful to you?" So you've said, you know, "What you're doing is not worthless, it's not stupid, but maybe there's another way," and that's respectful.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett50:40

       I think everyone has the experience of invalidating someone, and them then repeating themselves, and then you invalidate them again, and then they r- repeat themselves, and I think-

   20. JTJulian Treasure50:51

       Yeah, that's called argumentation. (laughs)

   21. SBSteven Bartlett50:52

       (laughs) Yeah. Well, I know it well because, uh, I think in my previous relationships, I would... And it's funny because I think I was the problem. I was definitely the- the one that was w- unwilling to allow them to feel heard.

   22. JTJulian Treasure51:04

       It's the, it's the joy of listening, actually. Um, d- listening is at the heart of all good relationships, to me, and, uh, i- if you listen to somebody... Or w- what was it? Scott Peck said, "You cannot truly listen to another human being and do anything else at the same time." And I absolutely agree with that because it's so rare in this world now. We're so distracted. Um, you know, I've- I- I'm a big fan of Nir Eyal's book, um-

   23. SBSteven Bartlett51:28

       Indistractable.

   24. JTJulian Treasure51:29

       Yeah, because we are so prone to being distracted. "No, I am listening to you."

   25. SBSteven Bartlett51:33

       (laughs)

   26. JTJulian Treasure51:34

       "No, you're sending a text. That's not listening. That's doing something else."

   27. SBSteven Bartlett51:37

       Yeah.

   28. JTJulian Treasure51:37

       So it's rare that we will put everything down and do what you and I are doing right now, which is look each other in the eye. You know, when you're li- when you're listening, I've got an acronym for this, um, in- in the book, in the courses and so forth, RASA. RASA, which is R-A-S-A, and the R is receive, and that means look at the person who's speaking. The dance of the eyes in- in the West tends to be that the person who's speaking looks around, as I am now, you know, thinking about other things and checks back in from time to time-

   29. SBSteven Bartlett52:10

       Mm-hmm.

   30. JTJulian Treasure52:10

       ... to see if the other person's still listening. If you're with somebody who's speaking and they look at you the whole time, it can become a little bit intimidating.
7. 55:30 – 1:07:00

   Authenticity, Virtue Signaling, And The Cost Of Inauthentic Lives

   1. JTJulian Treasure55:30

      somebody who is a powerful figure, or you consider them to be powerful. Um, I'm a great believer in agreements, contracts, in a- an informal way. "Steven, do you have five minutes? I've got something I really want you to listen to." Well, that puts you in the position you can either say yes or no. If you say no, that's fine, "I won't say it now. When would be a good time?" And I'll tell you a- a great experience I once had on a- on a beach in India. Uh, this is one of the best salespeople I've ever met, he was about a seven-year-old boy, and he came up, uh, I was sitting on the beach and he came up and said, "You want Coke?"

   2. SBSteven Bartlett56:07

      (laughs)

   3. JTJulian Treasure56:08

      And I said, um, you know, trying to be British, "Not right now, thank you very much." "Okay, when you want Coke?"

   4. SBSteven Bartlett56:15

      (laughs)

   5. JTJulian Treasure56:16

      Oh, uh, well, four o'clock? At four o'clock, he was back, "Here your Coke!" (laughs)

   6. SBSteven Bartlett56:21

      I love that. (laughs)

   7. JTJulian Treasure56:21

      It was brilliant. Uh, so he taught me a lot about, um, being authentic, 'cause I wasn't being, was I?

   8. SBSteven Bartlett56:28

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JTJulian Treasure56:28

      "No, I don't want to buy a Coke from you." Um, and also about persistence and, you know, asking the right questions and- and so forth. So, in the same way, if I ask you, "Do you have five minutes?" and you don't, I can park it and come back another time, because it wouldn't be the right time. If you haven't got five minutes, that's fine, I can res- respect your time. But from your point of view, y- yes, okay, I've got five minutes and you have just made a commitment to listen to me. So then I have a right, if I'm talking to you and you're off doing something else, you know, answering email or something, "Steven, you said you had five minutes. I do understand if you're busy. When would be a better time?"

   10. SBSteven Bartlett57:06

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JTJulian Treasure57:06

       So there's a kind of obligation there for you to listen to me. So that's one thing, I think that's a strategy that works very well. If you're on a meeting and you don't feel you're the most powerful person, then again asking the meeting for permission is a good thing. Uh, "Guys, I have something that I think really will contribute here. Would it be a good time now to say it to you all?"

   12. SBSteven Bartlett57:30

       Hm.

   13. JTJulian Treasure57:31

       It- it doesn't always work, but I think if you're asking and people give you a commitment, then you have a contract and you have a- a channel of communication that's been opened explicitly.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett57:44

       One of the things you talked about there is that kid on the beach with the, um, Coca-Cola offering you a can of Coke, and how that kind of violates your A, INHALE, the authenticity piece. Um, it also violates the H, honesty.

   15. JTJulian Treasure58:00

       Mm-hmm.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett58:01

       So my question is, is there a time when one should not be honest?

   17. JTJulian Treasure58:09

       Well, I think that the honesty, uh, needs to be tempered with love. So the answer is, it's a filter.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett58:18

       Which is the L, INHALE, as well, so-

   19. JTJulian Treasure58:19

       Yeah. Absolutely.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett58:20

       Okay.

   21. JTJulian Treasure58:21

       I think that, uh, being dedicated to ruthless, permanent, uh, always-on honesty is a pretty dangerous strategy in life. Uh, because you'd be going around saying to people, "You look terrible today. I really don't like you. What you just said was stupid." Uh, you know, it's not necessary to say those things to people. Depends on what you want to achieve. I don't think it's dishonest to withhold judgment. And a lot of the things I just said are opinions, and it's very important to distinguish between opinions and facts. They're not the same thing, and they're very often (laughs) confused in the modern world. So opinions, that's what I think, what I believe, what I judge. Facts, it's Saturday. That's a fact. We're not gonna disagree about that.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett59:08

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JTJulian Treasure59:08

       We can disagree about my opinions and, you know, I- I often say I wish that we lived in a society where perhaps people asked before giving opinion. "Would you like my opinion on that? No? Oh, I had such a good opinion all ready to go-"

   24. SBSteven Bartlett59:22

       (laughs)

   25. JTJulian Treasure59:22

       "... and you don't want it." But we don't do that, do we? We just proffer opinions and- and a lot of the time, we- we confuse them with facts, which leads to a lot of table-thumping. I- I grew up in a family where there was that confusion. There was a lot of argumentation and, uh, table-thumping because people had different opinions and didn't accept that they could possibly be challenged.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett59:43

       You're talking about your parents?

   27. JTJulian Treasure59:44

       Mm-hmm.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett59:45

       You're talking about your mother?

   29. JTJulian Treasure59:46

       No, my father actually. He was a ... My father was a- a massively confident and very successful man in advertising. He was, you know, he was known as Mr. Advertising, um, for some years in the 1960s. Hugely confident and hugely, uh, expressed in that way, but didn't brook disagreement very easily. So disagreeing with him was quite difficult. And, uh, that was certainly my experience growing up, that you had to be ready with chapter and verse and references if you were going to challenge a point of view.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:22

       How did, how did that shape you? 'Cause I think a lot about how my parents ... You know, my mum was, sounded a little bit like what you described earlier, where shouted so much at my dad that I- I- I couldn't understand how he stopped reacting to the sound of the shouting. At a young age, I remember wanting them to divorce because I didn't like shouting for six hours. My dad would not really shout back, but, um, that definitely has shaped how I communicate now. But how did it shape you, that- that environment?
8. 1:07:00 – 1:26:40

   FLAG: Defining Values As Your Moral Compass

   1. JTJulian Treasure1:07:00

   2. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:00

      Say that again.

   3. JTJulian Treasure1:07:02

      Understanding the listening that you're speaking into.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:05

      Ah, okay.

   5. JTJulian Treasure1:07:06

      Because we all have unique listening. And this is something, it's the most common mistake I see in business, in relationships, is people thinking, "Everybody listens like I do." They don't. Our listening is unique. Your listening is as unique as your, your irises, your fingerprints, your voice print. And so is mine. And they're different. So it's a huge mistake to assume other people are going to receive this message the way I would receive it. So it's a, a massively valuable tool, if you're speaking to one person or 10,000, doesn't matter, to say, "What's the listening I'm speaking into? What's the listening I'm speaking into? Who is this person? What's their listening? Whe- wh- where will it have come from? Or who are these 10,000 people?" Because in a big room, you have a gestalt listening, which changes over time. You know, the, I- I've done talks immediately after lunch in what they call the graveyard slot.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:04

      (laughs)

   7. JTJulian Treasure1:08:04

      He's a TED talker, he can cope with that. And everybody's a bit woozy, the blood's all gone to their gut, they're a bit tired, they're not very bright, you know? Or there's the final slot in the day just before people are leaving, when they're all desperate to go and have a drink in the bar or something. You know, there are different listenings through the day, and different listenings from person to person. So, it's not a fixed thing, and it's important to be sensitive. And actually, do you know what I've discovered is all you have to do is ask the question, "What's the listening?" and you become really good at spotting it. I don't know how. It might be tiny body language cues. It might be pheromones. It might be intuition.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:48

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JTJulian Treasure1:08:48

      Whatever it is, you will, if you pay attention to it, and you ask that question consciously, at least you're respecting the other person enough to say, "This person speaks really slowly, so I should probably slow my pace down a little bit." Or, "This is a really, really fast person, so let's be buzzy here."

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:07

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JTJulian Treasure1:09:07

       Or, you know, they might have cultural, or, uh, they might have political views or something like that that you need to be sensitive to if you're trying to achieve something.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:19

       Th- th- the point there as well about, about storytelling, I, I was, I was fac- fascinated by it because it reminded me of, um, my time at Social Chain. We built a social media company. Um, we never had a s- outbound sales team. Our strategy was kind of, there was maybe four-fold, but the two that are most pertinent to what I'm, to the point I'm making are personal branding and speaking on stage. So we grew our business from nothing to tens and tens and tens of billions in revenue, the agency business, the global business. Sep- 600, 700 million in revenue. Never with an outbound sales team. And the f- the s- the s- sole thesis, which I don't think people ever realize who are trying to scale an agency, is we just told really great stories. And the, the best way that I can, uh, demonstrate this is I remember my first talk when, when I started Social Chain at maybe 21 years old, and I was in London, and I walk up on stage, and I say, "That's exactly why you were kicked out of school. You're incapable of listening to anybody, and you always think you know a better way. Don't call me or the family until you go back to university." And with that, my mum hung up the phone.

   13. JTJulian Treasure1:10:22

       Oof.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:23

       That's how I started all of my talks for about four years. "I'm trying to sell you social media advertising here."

   15. JTJulian Treasure1:10:29

       Mm-hmm.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:29

       And at the end of this, the presentation, you would find out what happened with mine and mum's relationship. So it'd be this heart, and it would say, "And me and my mum have never had a better relationship." And I genuinely th- I, uh, you know, of all the things we did as a business, I genuinely believe that I was speaking 50 weeks a year. I was going to every corner of the world, meet- meeting every brand. Our biggest brands like Coca-Cola, they all came from hearing that exact talk we had about my mum. Um, the conventional and the, y- the normal thing to do is to bring information.

   17. JTJulian Treasure1:10:58

       Mm-hmm.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:59

       I'll give you as much information as I can. You see it in every slide deck, every pitch deck. But we all know from a human level the best part of this conversation is gonna be the stories.

   19. JTJulian Treasure1:11:07

       Yeah. Of course. It's gonna be engaging people and causing them to be curious. Curiosity is absolutely fundamental in listening. Now I talk about four Cs of listening, which are, um, compassion for the other person, for the audience, whatever it might be. Commitment, because it takes time and effort to listen. Listening is work. It's not just a capability. Yes, we have ears, but we actually have to put things down, focus, and so forth. Consciousness that you're actually doing something. Now, this is an action. This is not something that goes on in the background. And curiosity. And if you can engender those things in people, especially the curiosity, which we get with stories, especially if you start a story and you don't finish it ... Come on, Steven, we wanna know what happens at the end.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:00

       Yeah, yeah, (laughs) yeah.

   21. JTJulian Treasure1:12:01

       So you've then got the bit in the middle where they're all going, "I really want to know-"

   22. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:04

       (laughs) Yeah.

   23. JTJulian Treasure1:12:04

       "... what happened at the end."

   24. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:05

       Yeah.

   25. JTJulian Treasure1:12:06

       And then you give them the end, uh, at the, at the end to satisfy them.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:09

       Yeah.

   27. JTJulian Treasure1:12:09

       That is a brilliant way of engaging people.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:14

       People could, listening to this sh- And I, do you know what's funny, 'cause I was actually reflecting on, we r- I s- told you we, my company in San Francisco has just raised a lot of money, and I broke all the rules that I've just said.

   29. JTJulian Treasure1:12:23

       (laughs)

   30. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:23

       It's just, it's just, there's 10 slides of just information. I mean, it worked, but I think it's funny because I actually thought, "I don't actually care if it worked. I would've liked to do it my way."

Episode duration: 1:42:24