The Diary of a CEOThe Surprising & Unbelievable Dark Side Of Open Relationships: Aubrey Marcus | E242
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,185 words- 0:00 – 2:03
Intro
- AMAubrey Marcus
With Joe Rogan as my partner, we sold out in 12 hours. Zero to 60 million. (cash register rings)
- SBSteven Bartlett
How?
- AMAubrey Marcus
Step one. (instrumental music plays) It was f- (censored) wild. (graphic crinkles) Aubrey Marcus. The man who built and sold Onnit with Joe Rogan. One of the fastest growing human performance companies in America. My mother was a professional tennis player. My father was a pioneer, and that was the driving desire. It's like, my parents were big, I know I can be big. And I was frustrated because nothing was happening. There were so many failures, and I really thought, like, "I'm just never gonna succeed." But I think the key moment for me was when Joe Rogan said, "I can meet you 30 minutes for coffee." I was starting a supplement company and I went to (laughs) Joe, "What supplement would you like the most? I'm gonna make the best one that's ever been made." That was the pivotal moment that changed everything. Alpha Brain, I really felt like I didn't wanna do anything without it. We sold out of that product in 12 hours. We could barely keep it in stock. From zero to 60 million, we were Inc. 500 fastest growing company over the next four years. I mean, I couldn't have designed a fantasy better.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But it comes with a cost, right?
- AMAubrey Marcus
In that moment, I realized, like, I'm not gonna fly into a fit of rage and hurt somebody. You can see how much it still affects me. (heart beating)
- SBSteven Bartlett
What happened? Before this episode starts, I have a small favor to ask from you. Two months ago, 74% of people that watched this channel didn't subscribe. We're now down to 69%. My goal is 50%, so if you've ever liked any of the videos we've posted, if you like this channel, can you do me a quick favor and hit the subscribe button? It helps this channel more than you know, and the bigger the channel gets, as you've seen, the bigger the guests get. Thank you and enjoy this episode. (instrumental music plays)
- 2:03 – 17:14
Your mission & early context
- SBSteven Bartlett
Aubrey, when I read through your story, and a lot of people's story, what I tend to see is a series of almost dominoes that have fallen to make the person who they are today that stand in front of me. Can you take me to the first domino that you think was significant, um, in your life that fell to make the man that I see sat in front of me today, that I've spent the last couple of days learning and researching about?
- AMAubrey Marcus
I mean, the first domino is my mother giving birth to me, of course, right? Like, it starts from the drop. It starts... And we can't ignore all of the things that happen at birth that have nothing to do with us, and I was super blessed. My mother was a professional tennis player, went to the semifinals of Wimbledon, lost to Billie Jean King. Like, legit professional tennis player. My father was a commodities trader, and he was a pioneer in his field, so he was actually kinda stretching what the market and what the world understood about futures trading. He's written up in a book called Market Wizards. They split up really early, and so I got two more parents. My stepmother was a naturopathic doctor who worked with a lot of the NBA basketball teams and the Lakers in the '80s, the Knicks in the '90s, the Heat in the 2000s, but from the naturopathic side, not within the team aspect of it. And then my stepfather was a SWAT team squad officer, just big, badass-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- AMAubrey Marcus
... burly man. And from all of those sources, I got models of greatness. I got models of really testing yourself to see what you're capable of, and I think that's, like, the foundation of what I was. And then there's my grandmother, who inspired this, like, craving desire for knowledge, just to learn about the world. And I think the key moment for me, with all of that framework with my parents, that craving for knowledge instilled by my grandmother, my grandmother's tattooed on my arm actually, and then I go and do my first psychedelic medicine journey after high school when I'm 18 years old, and I really feel like I wanna find knowledge and then be able to distribute that to the world in an interesting way. I wanted to build my own legacy, so to speak. And in that first psychedelic medicine ceremony, I felt my body disappear, and I felt what I could only call consciousness, or maybe even use the word soul, even though I wasn't religious at all, so I didn't believe in souls, but I felt something come online, and that was kind of the, the genesis of me being where I am now, even though that doesn't have a lot to do with all of my business accomplishments and anything else. It's just this desire to be great, because it was modeled for me in the parents that I had, this thirst and quest for knowledge. That quest for knowledge turned inward with the psychedelic medicine journey, so I was looking inside. That's the field of psychonautics, which is really the field that I'm most passionate about. Psychonautics, the exploration of the inner aspects, the inner cosmos of who we are, and then offering what I learn out to the world. And sometimes that comes out in the form of products and practices and workout equipment and supplements, like with the company Onnit that I started. Sometimes it's with a podcast or a poem or a story, and uh, yeah, that's probably (laughs) one way to look at, uh, who is Aubrey Marcus.
- SBSteven Bartlett
If you were to draw a circle around all of those products, the content, the podcast, Onnit, and your current mission today, through all of the work you're doing, what is the simi- what is the mission there? If I had asked you, if I ask you right now, "What is your mission in life," what would it be?
- AMAubrey Marcus
If you were to ask me, I don't know, 15 years ago, it would've been just to make a big impact. I just wanna be big. I wanna be big. My parents were big. I know I can be big. I feel it in me. I feel like there's something big that supposed to emerge, right? And I was frustrated because nothing was happening. And so, I founded my company, and I created On It, and then things started to get big. I started my podcast, things started to get big. I wrote my book, things started to get bigger. And that was the driving desire, right? It was actually... And yes, I wanted it to be for the good of all. I've always felt very connected to everybody else, and recognized that you sitting across from me right here, you're just me living a different life, right? Like, we're all part of the same source of life itself. So, I did always have this belief like, I wanna contribute to the greater good of all. As one of my teachers, Don Howard, said, "Para el bien de todos." For the good of all. So, that was always there, but it was a lot more about me. It was a lot more about me being big, if I'm being honest. And now, right now, some of that's removed. It's like I've, uh, I've accomplished that thing where it's like, Aubrey has made his mark. But that doesn't even matter anymore. Now, I look out at the whole world and I say, "All right world, what do you need, and what do you need from Aubrey? Like, what can Aubrey do to help you the most? Like, I hear you, like, I know that you're hurting, and I know that you're beautiful. You're beautiful in every way. And what can I do to actually serve the world in the best way possible?" And that's the, that's the mission, man.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Your parents breaking up at two years old, was that significant for you? In hindsight, as you look back as an adult, was that a significant moment?
- AMAubrey Marcus
The ramifications of that were incredibly significant, because it brought in my stepmother and my stepfather into the constellation of my family. So, there could be very few things that were more significant than that, as I had four models of parent rather than two. And with four, I was able to get a much more well-rounded approach. Like, the difference between my father and my stepfather were immense.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What were those differences?
- AMAubrey Marcus
Well, my father was an incredibly acute and attuned intellectual. A philosopher, a thinker. You know, uh, he was able to actually analyze, a logician. He was able to analyze the world in this very, kind of, philosophical way, and it helped shape my mind in that way. My stepfather brought that bear energy of what it is to be a man. The physicality. He was always the best to play with as a kid, too, because of, of course you wanna play with a bear. They know how to roll around and laugh, and tell stories, and you sit on their shoulders, and you go climbing around. And, and, it's not that either or both parent didn't have a little bit of that, but they were very different archetypes. And so, my understanding about what it means to be a man included so many different things. It included the eloquence of being able to write poetry, and solve problems, and play Scrabble, and play chess. And it involved also brute force wrestling, and playing, and telling stories, and standing, you know, standing as a hero against that which didn't serve, you know? And, and so, with two models of father, I got to actually have a much more well-rounded kind of idea of what it meant to be a man.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Was there lessons that you had to unlearn from that?
- AMAubrey Marcus
Of course, yeah. I mean, you, you don't learn just the positive aspects of your parents, you learn the negative aspects of your parents too. You, those, those are learned in, in ways that your mind can't even comprehend. So, things that my dad was stressed about, I find myself being stressed about, because I transmitted this, kind of, general sense of worry about things. So, I've had to unlearn those aspects of worry. My father also, you know, was want to fly into fits of rage at a certain point. I remember one time, um, this is a, a very, like, very important story in my own trajectory, uh, 'cause my father, when he would get angry, he would start, he would just yell. You know, just like, he would just erupt. And, um, it was early in, early after I started On It. It was probably 2013, 2014, and we had a smaller office then. Not the smallest office. It was the second-biggest office that we had. And I had my own office, and I was in there, and I was filming a video, and it was an important video for me to film. And we had a, kind of, front desk customer service person also in the office who was handling emails, customer service things, and also handling anybody coming in the door. Something came up where she started knocking on the door. Well, I didn't know it was her that was knocking on the door. I didn't really know who was knocking on the door. I was just trying to film a video. And back then, we didn't have a bunch of video editors, so it wasn't like, we weren't able to just stop. I had to, kind of, hit it in one take. You know, we didn't have the tech resources then. (laughs) So, I'm like five minutes into this take, I'm killing it, and the knock comes. And then a second knock, and then a third knock. And finally, by the third knock, I couldn't ignore it anymore. It was throwing me off my mental track, and I just started yelling like, "What? What is it you... What the fuck do you want?" You know, like, one of those moments where I just got really angry. And then I hear, like, "I'm sorry." And I was like, "Oh, man. That was, that was our front desk girl, who's just a sweetheart." Like, absolute sweetheart. Like, the sweetest... And, and I, like...... take a deep breath and I, like, open the door. And I walk out there, and she's crying in her desk. (sniffs) In that moment, I realized, like, I'm not gonna do that ever again. Like, I'm not gonna do that shit. I'm not gonna fly into a fit of rage and hurt somebody. You know, I wo- like, I won't. And you can see how much it still affects me, you know, because that was the point that that pattern broke for me. And it's not that it, not that I haven't gotten mad since then or whatever, but never like that, you know? And there's something else in me that's like, "No, never again," because I saw her, and I saw what I did. And of course, I apologized, and... But that's where I stopped that lineage transmission and said, "It stops with me."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Where did that lineal transmission start? In your father? Did you ever figure that out?
- AMAubrey Marcus
Yeah, with his, with his father (laughs) . You know, I mean, it, I don't know how far it went back. I mean, I don't have a strong genealogical tree. I didn't even get to meet either of my grandfathers actually, but uh, I've heard the stories, you know, I heard the stories of that. My dad did the best to kind of shed as much of the trauma that he could shed so he would pass on as little as possible to me, and he did his best. And, and he was actually the one that encouraged me to go on my own psychedelic medicine journey because that was one of the tools that he used to try and actually change who he is so that he could be better for me and be better for the world, and he did, he did a great job. You know, compared to the stories of my grandfather, to him, he did a f- amazing job, and it was my job to clean up the rest. And that's what I'm in the process of doing, is cleaning up the rest so that when I have my son, Huxley is going to be his name, you know, of course, source willing that, that we have a, we have a child, I don't want to pass any of that on. I just want to pass the legacy, a new, fresh, fresh legacy, like fresh powder on a, on a mountain, you know, like fresh tracks, a legacy of love, a legacy of support, a legacy of like, "I'm here, son. And also, you're so much more powerful than you think you are, and let me show you," and bring him through all of the initiations, the sweat lodges, the cold mountains like I've climbed with Wim Hof, the, when he's old enough, the medicine journeys, bring him through this path of initiation, but the whole way, just love, love, love the whole way, where that never wavers. So he's not trying to prove something to me so that he can get me to love him. He knows that I love him.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Are you speaking about a younger version of yourself in your father when you say that, about that proval, that pro-
- AMAubrey Marcus
Of course, of course.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Have you got an example of when you realized that you were, you were following that pattern?
- AMAubrey Marcus
(laughs) I mean, the example's most of my whole life, right? Like, "Am I doing it right? Am I doing it right, Dad?" You know, "Am I doing it good enough, Dad?" Is, was the subconscious dialogue that I've been in for a long time. Now, it's, it was my father first, you know, so that, my father was Dad, so my, Michael Marcus represented that image of Dad. But it would transfer to other people. It could transfer to a mentor. It could transfer to a partner. It could transfer to a boss. And I would put this kind of approval-seeking desire on them. They would be the surrogate father, and I would be trying to show them how good I am, and, and then, then they would love me. Just like when I scored 25 points in a basketball game, my dad was all fucking love and happy, and when I scored, you know, seven points and had a bad shooting night, it's not that he didn't love me, but it felt like he didn't love me 'cause he was just quiet and sullen, and I was quiet and sullen. And all of the, all of the love felt like it'd been sucked out of the room like a vacuum, right? So I learned, and that's just one example of many different ways that I learned, that if you perform well, you're loved, and if you don't, you're not loved.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What's this ping pong story?
- AMAubrey Marcus
Yeah. Well, that was, that was just one of the moments that my father just flew into rage, you know? So I was four years old, and my father was playing ping pong, and he
- 17:14 – 29:34
The influence of your parents
- AMAubrey Marcus
mishit a ball. It hit off the corner of the paddle, flew up into the, into the stratosphere basically (laughs) as he was trying to hit a smash, and I go, "Home run." I'm just a kid, and I was like, I thought that was a funny thing to say. But for my father, he was so locked in this intense competition, which of course didn't matter, he's not like, in the Ping Pong World Championships. It was in his house. And later, he started yelling at me from like, for saying that during his ping pong match 'cause it threw him off his game or whatever, whatever it was. So moments like that really made me kind of aware to the point of being scared about what I was saying, and so it gave me, and as I said before, like, one of the stoic mindsets is everything that happens to you, happens for you. Why did it happen for you? I look at that story now and say, "Okay, at that moment, I realized that I have to be very mindful of everything I say when I say it because there's drastic consequences if I don't." What does that make me do? It makes me a very good listener.It makes me a very good communicator. It allows me to understand how my words could be perceived. What a f- what a gift. That's my superpower. Thanks, Dad.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But it comes with a cost, all superpowers, right?
- AMAubrey Marcus
Of course. And the cost was, and sometimes still is, less now, I have to be, you know, have to be honest and not claim a false humility, but sometimes still is, but the cost is, like, you're not present. You're not really present if you're thinking all the time about every different way that what you say could be perceived by somebody else, and you're going through these hypothetical scenarios in your brain about the hypothetical conversations about if they took that the wrong way, how you would respond and what you would explain. It's mentally exhausting and anxious, you know, and it's, I lived so much of my life playing out a million different scenarios about every single thing that I said and how that could be interpreted. And as I said, like, I'm mostly free of that, but every once in a while, for a text that matters, I'll look at it and I'll see like, broop, like nine different ways that that thing could be interpreted the wrong way, and then I have to manual, like with manual override of my own consciousness, be like, "It's all good. They know you. They love you. They're not gonna take any of these different interpretations and then abandon you or get mad at you or anything like that."
- SBSteven Bartlett
This process you describe starts, um, according to all of the therapists and child trauma experts I've spoken to with something called awareness, and that kind of allows you to take on the challenge. But there's a lot of people that are living unaware of the, um, puppet master in the back room-
- AMAubrey Marcus
Uh-huh.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... that's pulling the strings. What has made you aware?
- AMAubrey Marcus
(sighs) I mean, everybody has their own path, and so I don't want to sound like my path is my recommendation, my prescription for everybody, but for me, it's been the psychedelic medicine path. And psychedelic medicine doesn't have to involve taking anything. I think you mentioned that your partner is a breath work practitioner. Breath work at the highest level is as psychedelic as anything. It's incredibly cathartic and magical and visionary, even. I mean, you're actually, there's been some studies showing that actually in that deep breathing process, you're producing endogenous levels of DMT. DMT, which is called the spirit molecule, which is also the active psychedelic compound in ayahuasca, it's happening when you breathe. So there's a lot of different psych, like psychonautic technologies that can get you there, from sensory deprivation tanks to sweat lodges to lots of things. But I have done many, if not most, of the plant medicines of the world, most, and really experienced a lot of the great lineages that have had that wisdom, and then also started to look to see how those lineages can evolve, how we can use this unique time where we have access to many different medicines and access to many different ways of thinking and psychological technologies, like internal family systems, for example, which has been paired with psychedelic medicine therapy. So using all of this and create a new emergent lineage about how to hold these medicines in a way that is accretive and actually supportive to our life, because for me, that's been the process. Again, psychonautics, the ability to look inside and see everything. As Rumi said, you know, "We're not a drop in the ocean, we're the ocean in a drop." So if you want to understand anything about the cosmos, you can look out at the cosmos or you can look inside into your inner cosmos with a K, and that's the way the Greeks spelled it, and say like, "Okay, like what's, what's really on the inside? What's really on the inside?" And the medicines have helped me do that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Your first experience with plant medicines was when you were 18 years old. Is that correct?
- AMAubrey Marcus
Yeah. That's right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You went on a, um, you call it like a vision. Was it like a vision mission? Can't remember the word you used.
- AMAubrey Marcus
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, after high school.
- AMAubrey Marcus
Yeah. That was it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
A vision mission?
- AMAubrey Marcus
Yeah. It was, it's, I mean, there's a, it's a vision quest-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- AMAubrey Marcus
... but it, there's definitely many traditional ways to do a vision quest, which involve fasting for four days with no food, no water, and that's more of the Lakota style of a vision quest or the North American First Nations, you know, kind of style. Um, this was more of a medicine vision quest, which is a little bit different in that I'm still going on a journey for a vision and going to a place, but the medicine was actually there instead of the fasting and the stillness and the silence. And it's not to say that the medicine is better or worse. It certainly worked out really well for me. But that was the pivotal moment that changed everything. I actually had a vision of who I actually was. So that first step of four in my mission was illuminated where I started to understand the kind of limitlessness and the undying source of who I actually really am.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I read that in your story, but then the next sort of 10 years of your life didn't seem to manifest what I would have assumed a plant medicine journey would have manifested in the sense that you described that from 20 onwards, you were still relatively sort of lost and seeking approval and partying a lot and-
- AMAubrey Marcus
Oh, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... drinking a lot. Yeah.
- AMAubrey Marcus
So there's a... It was interesting because I'd connected to my soul that was all that is, but myself, the Aubrey, still wanted approval, still wanted to be loved, still wanted to make his mark, still wanted to be big, you know? So...I was advancing rapidly in the internal kind of dynamics of understanding who I was, but externally, I was not meeting that criteria, and I couldn't see beyond a reason. You know, I, there was not a point where I, I thought, "Well, maybe I don't need this, actually." And actually, even now, even after all this work, it's like, I appreciate that I wanted to really go for it. I was audacious, and I wanted to have a big company, and I wanted to make a big mark. I wanted to have resources. Because resources are now opening up the possibility for me to really tell different stories, bring communities together, do the things that I, that I really want to do. So I wouldn't have changed it, but there was a focus on me, you know, from an, a kind of egoic identity construct perspective, being successful. And that was like the guiding, that was like the guiding principle, and I was failing at it, really. Like I was failing at it. I had a marketing company, and I kept getting fired by my different clients, and even if I did a good job, and I would start a, I would start things. (laughs) It's funny, actually. I smashed my, uh, for those looking, I smashed my finger, and it was all purple, so I painted it, uh, with my wife's nail polish, which is gray. So I have one painted nail. But it's a funny example, because that was one of my failed businesses. I was gonna start a men's nail polish line (laughs) because I saw, like, Chuck Liddell-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- AMAubrey Marcus
... and my friend, Roger Huerta, they were painting their nails. I was like, "Yeah, men can paint their nails." And I started that. It bombed. There were so many failures, and I really thought, like, "I'm just never gonna succeed." I mean, I made a, I made a decent living. You know, I always, always found a client, or I always found somebody that I, that I could get a paycheck from. But it wasn't happening until it did.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Until it did.
- AMAubrey Marcus
Till it did.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you think about that moment, and the factors that aligned to make i- it happen until it did, what were those factors that aligned, or what, what...
- AMAubrey Marcus
Hm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Was it fate? Was it luck? Was it something that changed within you? Was it being more aligned with your own sort of authentic self?
- AMAubrey Marcus
All of the above. Looking back, I wasn't ready to hold the bigness yet. I had to, I had to... You know, kinda like sometimes if you have a young, a young stallion, and they're bucking around, and they're hard, you gotta run 'em a little bit. You gotta run the stallion. I had to, I had to run a little bit. And my partner at the time, Katelyn, we were running. You know, we were partying a lot. We were out. I was standing on the speakers and growling. I was training MMA with the homies. I was, I was running. You know, I was running. And I think I needed to do that, and at the same time, I was also exploring, exploring in that path of psychonautics building experience. And I had this feeling, I just had this feeling when I watched Joe Rogan do comedy, and we're talking 2008. You know, this is not the Joe Rogan of now, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Yeah.
- 29:34 – 32:15
How to become self-aware
- AMAubrey Marcus
was going to the Kentucky Derby. And Bode going to the Kentucky Derby is a big deal. He gets to go with all of the, you know, the big dogs, and it's a huge party, and Bode was, at that point, my best friend. And the Kentucky Derby happened to be exactly at the time where Joe Rogan said, "I can meet you 30 minutes for coffee." So I had a choice. I could either say, "Ah, fuck the coffee. We'll just advertise, and I'll go to the derby," which old me would've been like, "Derby! Derby! Let's go! Let's party!"
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- AMAubrey Marcus
You know, the stallion that wanted to run. But there was some knowledge inside me that, "No, this coffee with Joe Rogan is important, and I'm gonna skip the whole derby party, and I'm gonna just meet this man for coffee." And I met him for coffee, and the coffee turned into dinner, and then that dinner turned into a friendship, and that turned into him having me on his podcast, and then a friendship developed. And out of that friendship...... developed, really, I was starting a supplement company, developed Onnit as we know it now, Joe Rogan as my partner, and then the combination of, again, going back to my parents, my stepmother had a deep knowledge of nutraceuticals that actually could functionally impact performance. She worked with basketball teams, so she had athletic performance supplements, cognitive performance supplements, and I was used to that concept. So with her help and with the, all of the scientific research, I could put together a formula. I knew how to market, 'cause I'd marketed things, and then Joe Rogan was my partner. And so we had a way to get that out. We had a way to let people know. So I raised $110,000. I got $50,000 from a, from a kind of family friend that I'd worked with and with different clients and done some public relations work with, and I had Bodhi, my friend, who... So one gave $50,000. The other gave $60,000, and that was the start of Onnit, is that money right there. And I basically blew through and wasted all of that, and then I went to Joe (laughs) and I said, "Hey, man, like, what supplement would you like the most?" He's like, "Ah, man, I'd like a all-natural nootropic that really worked," a nootropic being a cognitive enhancer. And I was like, "You know what, Joe? I'm gonna make the best one that's ever been made." He's like, "All right, man." And I went to work and I did it, and I formulated, with all of that help, the supplement that was Alpha Brain, and with Alpha Brain, then sent it to Joe, and Joe was like, "Man, this is amazing." It was actually way too strong at that point. It was like, (laughs) it was like, it was gnarly. But Joe's a beast, you
- 32:15 – 36:03
Your vision quest
- AMAubrey Marcus
know? (laughs) He's like- he's a savage. So at that moment, then we kinda knew we had something. So I dialed down the formula, got it right, and when all of that came together and we launched Alpha Brain, it just clicked. We sold out of that product in 12 hours. We had the next batch going, and the only reason I had the money to even buy the first batch was because there was net-30 credit terms on my purchase order. So actually, we could receive the product and not have to pay for 30 days. So I didn't even have (laughs) the money to pay in 30 days unless I sold it, right? But we sold it in 12 hours, and then there was another order on the back of that. So I was actually sold through two orders before I even had to pay the first purchase order. So we grew Onnit from literally nothing at that point, other than the resources that we'd a- you know, applied to having a website and having a shopping cart, et cetera. And that was it. It was a rocket ship from there. And also, you know, being on Joe Rogan's podcast, people started to be aware of my ideas and my philosophies and these other things that I'd been developing over all of these years, in between all of the partying that I was doing and all of the other stuff. And at that moment, I started to have a, a stage and a, and a platform and started to build a kingdom.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you say i- it grew like a rocket ship, to close off that story, can you quantify that in some way for people that are listening, from that first launch moment to where it ended up getting acquired by Unilever, I believe?
- AMAubrey Marcus
Yeah. (laughs) Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you say rocket ship, what do you mean?
- AMAubrey Marcus
So 2010, Onnit was founded by me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AMAubrey Marcus
And with the investment from those two individuals-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AMAubrey Marcus
... that I mentioned, Bodhi and Howard, and, uh, we sold a little bit, but we had a lot of inventory. We couldn't sell it, and we were failing. It was another failed business, just like my men's nail polish company was (laughs) going down into the dirt. And then at that moment, with the Alpha Brain product, we put that on sale, and then from there, we could barely keep it in stock. We were just selling through as much as we could have, and then we developed other supplements that went, and we went from... I mean, we were Inc. 500 fastest growing company over the next, you know, four years, because we actually went from, you know, zero to I don't know what the first year was. I don't have all the numbers, but imagine like 12 million, 24 million, 34 m- you know, 35 million, 45 million, you know? And then we, and then we kind of leveled out around 60 million in annual revenue for a while, and then we had some real trials and tribulations and a lot of deep tests at that point to get us to the level where eventually, in 2021, uh, we were able to sell the company to Unilever and have a huge exit, which has now given me, uh, you know, a amazing blessing of abundance of resources. And one of the coolest parts about that is so many people in my life, you know, talking about community again, so many people in my life got little pieces of the company, you know? Like my friend Mehcad, Mehcad Brooks, who's now an actor on Law & Order. He was a, he was an actor in True Blood bla- back then. I was like, "Yeah, man! You can have 10,000 shares. Come on!"
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- AMAubrey Marcus
"Let's talk about this." I was giving out, I was giving out equity like candy. I was like, "I love you, man! Here's some shares." And then all of a sudden, all of those shares turned into huge amounts of wealth, you know, for so many people. And, and that was such a beautiful thing, not only for me, not only for Joe, but for everybody, that, that was, everybody that was around me that I was giving a little piece of this equity to for Onnit to build that energy,
- 36:03 – 46:37
Meeting Joe Rogan & building a company with him
- AMAubrey Marcus
everybody, everybody won. It was like being on this gigantic 100-person craps table of everybody you love, and everybody wins, and the casino just empties out the bank-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- AMAubrey Marcus
... and we all go home, and we're like, "Wow! We did it!" And in the meantime, we made great products. We inspired people. We got people to... You know, our m- our concept was total human optimization. We got people to actually get back in touch with this idea that you can be a little bit better tomorrow than you are today. And so every step of the way, it was something beautiful, and then the payoff was beautiful. It was, it's just an absolute dream, man, and doesn't mean that I didn't live my own little nightmares of fear and anxiety and worry and stress and mistakes all through the process.... but looking back now, holy shit. What an unbelievable ... I mean, I couldn't have designed a fantasy better.
- SBSteven Bartlett
There's gonna be people listening to this who are the version of you at the start of that rollercoaster.
- AMAubrey Marcus
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What would you say to those people? 'Cause, uh, th- I mean, a lot of our listenership a- are exactly that person. They have an idea. They're, they're pursuing a dream. They ... maybe for the wrong or the right reasons, I mean, uh, who am I to say h- to, to define what either of those, um, are. But what would you say to them, h- in order to prepare them for that rollercoaster?
- AMAubrey Marcus
You have to see it. You have to see, really see it, like see it with clear eyes, not with the deluded eyes of hope and not with the shrouded eyes of fear, but really see what's possible, I think. People always ask me the question, like, "Can you believe what happened with Onnit?" And I was like, "Of course I can believe what happened with Onnit. If I didn't believe that it could happen, it wouldn't have happened." (laughs) You know, it's the funniest. "Can you believe it?" I was like, "Yeah, I can believe it." (laughs)
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- AMAubrey Marcus
Of course I can believe it. If I didn't believe it, it wouldn't have happened. So, the first, most important step is you really have to see it, and you have to see it realistically. And to see it realistically, you have to look at how difficult it is out there, you know? I mean, I, I meet so many people who are like, "Yeah, I'm gonna start this clothing brand." I'm like ... and I've been, you know, done a l- few things with different clothes, and that's a hard business. It's a hard ... it's a grind. That's difficult. But you can do it, but you have to see it, and you have to see the field correctly. You have to see the competition. You have to see how challenging the market is and actually see how you're going to elevate above that. And when you can really see it, then you can make it happen, but it depends on how accurate your sight is. So, you have to see accurately, have the discretion, and then once that's there, you have to go all in. Like push all your chips in. When you see it, push all your chips in, focus, and turn all of that energy into a single point and push forward, uh, with everything you got.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay, so see it. I, I, a few thoughts sprung to mind when you said it, talk- talked about seeing it. So, the first one is, what role does seeing it play? 'Cause you talked about the adversity. You kind of like glossed over the adversity of that journey.
- AMAubrey Marcus
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I think part of the reason I started this podcast in the first place was because I think the adversity matters just as much as the eventual achievement.
- AMAubrey Marcus
For sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And obviously because of the way that the media works and the way we tell our stories, we focus a bit more on the achievement, but what role does seeing it play in being able to grace those hurdles as and when they inevitably come?
- AMAubrey Marcus
Well, the first one is to see it actually being successful.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AMAubrey Marcus
Right? And I saw, I could see that vision. And even, even as it was happening, it was still s- you know, there was still some part of me that was like, "Wow, it's really actually coming true." 'Cause I'd seen it before. I saw the nail polish company successful too. I just didn't see it accurately. I didn't see the market. I didn't see the idea that this was gonna be a very difficult thing to actually convince people was cool, and that people would be like, "Why buy your nail polish when I can just get any nail polish?" There were ... I didn't really see it right. And with Onnit, I saw it right, you know, and I had the right people and, and with the right team. So, so seeing it into success is important, and then what you're gonna encounter is a lot of things that you didn't see, and that's where the adversity comes. I didn't see that coming. I didn't see that coming. We had a security breach at Onnit, you know, was one of the, the early days, 2013, 2014, when al- that was happening to a lot of different companies, I think. I remember Target had a big one, and it was found out, and then Target was like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, this happened, and you know, sorry about that, you know, 'cause people got access to credit cards." That happened to us. And there was a choice point, and it w- it felt like everything was gonna be ruined because we got hacked. Somebody got access to our customer data. We didn't have the right firewalls and all of the right cybersecurity. I mean, I thought we did, but we didn't, obviously, and there was a choice point, you know. Nobody, nobody else externally discovered it. We discovered it internally. We fixed it, and we could've just kind of crossed our fingers and hoped that nothing happened. But I made a different choice, and in that choice, I just said, "I gotta tell everybody." So, I just sent out an email. I was like, "Look, y'all, I'm so sorry." Like, "This is on us. We didn't have the right security. We got hacked, and your information was compromised, and we're so sorry. And here's, you know, a discount code for any Onnit products that you want, and like, our deepest apologies for any inconvenience this may have caused if you have to cancel your card or whatever, I understand." And, and I just came out really authentically and honestly, and that ended up being one of like these powerful moments where instead of the whole customer base turning against our company, being like, "These losers can't even secure our credit cards or whatever," they actually trusted m- trusted our company and trusted me more because of just how authentically I shared about that story. So, that's one version of, uh, of adversity that comes from those things that, those monsters that come from the grass, that were slithering around or hiding in the, in the tall grass that you don't see, and then all of a sudden you have to confront them. And it's gonna be about how you deal with those things that you didn't see, and are you guided by that again, that super structure that I talked about, those principles of, if you were me living a different life, what would I want me to receive? I would want honesty. Just somebody to be honest and be like, "Yeah, we fucked up, and we're sorry, and, and this is the best we can do."You know, and- and that was- that was kind of the guiding principle, is I was bound by this value structure, and the value structure was the- kind of the guiding light through all of it, and it- it worked.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you said a- about seeing it, one of the things, uh, that came to mind as well was when you can see the com- competitive landscape, often that's incredibly intimidating. There's- y- entrepreneurs often talk about how being a little bit delusional and naive is actually a driving force, and were they to know how difficult it actually was, like were entrepreneurs... To- to have seen your hardest, darkest days, they might not have bothered. So, my- my second question here is, about seeing it, is what would you say to an entrepreneur that's starting a business, maybe in the same, you know, in the same field as Onnit was, that's looking out and thinking, "Oh my God, but there's already loads of competitors, and-
- AMAubrey Marcus
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... Aubrey did this and Joe did that. Like, I've got this idea, but there's so many competitors, I just won't bother"?
- AMAubrey Marcus
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
'Cause I'm sure when you started, there was a big competitive landscape, right?
- AMAubrey Marcus
Sure. (sighs) It gets more and more difficult, you know, all the time, and it's about can you get the right pieces of the puzzle together, the right product, the right energy behind it, the right ethos, the right experience, something that's actually better than the field? I mean, when you're talking about this landscape, you're talking about one of the beauties of this capitalist model is you're open to radical competition, and that's what drives the evolution. So, you have to know that you're a little bit better. You're a little bit better than everybody else, and if you're able to show that in all of the ways that you're a little bit better, you'll be able to make it through. And yes, you're still gonna receive immense challenges. You know, there's gonna be times... That security breach was just one of many. We had another moment where we made a huge mistake. We thought we were getting an investment. We distributed all of our cash. We had zero money in the bank. The investment didn't happen, and then so we had all of these accounts payable, no money in the bank, and it- we called it cashpocalypse at that point. Our CFO just looked at us, said, "We're- we're bankrupt in 30 days. I'm leaving."
- SBSteven Bartlett
What?
- AMAubrey Marcus
Walked out of the room. Walked out of the room. I was like, "All right." And then our COO, who ended up becoming the CEO when I stepped down in 2020, right before- like a year before the sale, uh, he guided us through, and we made it. And it- we- we made it because of the relationships that we'd, you know, held with honesty and with- with good faith, with everybody. We weren't- we weren't playing games with anybody, so they trusted us. We were like, "Hey, we're in a really tight spot, but if you- if you trust us and you allow us to pay late, you extend our terms from net 30- net- to net 60 to net 90, maybe net 120, you know, like we're gonna pay you in four months for the products that you're delivering." And they believed in us. They backed us, and- and that was what a- what got us through that moment, so...
- SBSteven Bartlett
That CFO that walked out-
- AMAubrey Marcus
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
...he made a big mistake in hindsight.
- AMAubrey Marcus
He made a big mistake. He had also- he had, you know, he had an equity position. He had options that he- that he, you know, forfeited. Whoops.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- 46:37 – 1:01:13
Advice for businesses that think they're "too late"
- AMAubrey Marcus
couldn't help but send, uh, on the anniversary of that day where- where the CFO walked out, and- and just told us straight up that we're- we were gonna be out of business for the next couple years, on that anniversary would be like, "Hey, how's- how's it going? We're still here." (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- AMAubrey Marcus
Just sent him a text.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, wow. Wow. I mean, some people... But that's- that's natural selection of life, though. Some people, in their hardest times, they bail, right? And-
- AMAubrey Marcus
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
...they're- therefore, they aren't deserving of those kind of good- good moments-
- AMAubrey Marcus
Exactly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
...per se. You left in 2020.
- AMAubrey Marcus
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I don't see a huge desire from you, from looking at what you're doing now, to get in- get back in bed in that same kind of industry, doing the same kind of thing?
- AMAubrey Marcus
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is that accurate? And if so, why?
- AMAubrey Marcus
(sighs) The- my desire to be a CEO is not really there. My desire to be this kind of visionary founder is there. So, you imagine someone like Richard Branson at a certain... He's really not actually running any of the companies that he's running- run- owning. He's just kind of guiding them, and I am very interested in continuing to guide different projects and different brands, but I want really competent operators to really start to navigate. Now, I may end up actually working with the CEO that Jason Havey, who was with Onnit for 10 years, he transitioned out, so he's now no longer there. And so we make team back up, get the Avengers back together, and put, you know, a few other brands back on the table. And the reason for that is because they are great products, again, that are doing really important things. Like I wanna do important things. And the resources that- that will allow us to, you know, kind of accumulate can then be applied to really great projects that can benefit, again, para el bien de todos, for the good of all. So yeah, I mean, I'm still- I'm still in the game, but I'm just doing it at a different level. I'm not gonna be the guy who's poring over the PnLs, who's chasing down purchase orders, but I am the guy who can go out and meet the key allies, put the pieces of the puzzle together, share the voice and the kind of idea of why these products are important. And- and so that's gonna be- there's gonna be another kind of reload and birth of a new kind of wave of things, um, that'll come out and- and...There's also, but there's so many other things. Now I'm going in many different directions. Of course, there's the podcast, there's the book that I'm working on and other books that are planned after that. There's media and documentaries that I'm making, and there's stories I want to tell. And there's a lot of different things that I'm doing. But I'm just at a level and a, and a purview where I have a lot of competent operators that are helping execute on all of these different visions.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(paper rustles) Ladies and gentlemen, (instrumental music plays) I am so delighted to finally be able to announce that one of my all-time favorite brands are now sponsoring this podcast, and that is Whoop. All of you know that I've been on a bit of a journey in terms of health, performance, cognitive performance, sleep, and all those kinds of things. That's kind of been reflected in the guests we've had on this podcast. And Whoop has been a huge part of my life for many, many, many years. That's part of the reason I also had the founder come on the podcast. After having Will on the podcast, I love the brand even more. Hearing about his vision, his passion for the project, where it came from, his own obsession with solving a problem which turned into the product that is Whoop. Whoop is a wearable health and fitness coach that provides you with the feedback and real actionable insights into sleep, into recovery, into how you're training, into your stress levels and your overall health. And for me, it's empowered me to be the best version of myself across all of those aspects of my life. The Whoop team have very kindly offered to give all of you a free month. So just head to join.whoop.com/ceo to claim your device and your first free month on us. (paper rustles) You know, I never really usually pick the chocolate-flavored Huels. My favorite are the banana flavor. I love the salted caramel flavor. But recently, I think I in part blame Jack in my team, who's obsessed with the chocolate flavor Huels. I've started drinking the chocolate flavor Huels for the first time, and I absolutely love them. My life means that I sometimes disregard my diet. And it's funny, that's part of the reason why I've had a lot of guests on this podcast recently that talk about diet and health and, and those kinds of things, because I am trying to make an active effort to be more healthy, to lose a little bit of weight as well, but to be more healthy. And the role that Huel plays in my life is it means that in those moments where sometimes I might reach for, (tongue clicks) you know, junk foods, having an option that is nutritionally complete, that is high in fiber, that is incredibly high in protein, that has all the vitamins and minerals that my body needs within arm's reach that I can consume on the go is where Huel has been a game-changer for me. (paper rustles) Love. Let's talk about love, then. I often wonder, you know, uh, we, we learn our models of love and relationships very early. And I've talked a lot about, um, how I learned my model of love, the good and the bad, the ugly of it, and how I was very much an avoidant in terms of my attachment style. I would run from everyone that sh- had any interest in me. I'd pursue someone, and then when they showed interest in me, I'd run. And I was like mimicking some like deep model that I'd learned that relationships mean you're in prison.
- AMAubrey Marcus
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Basically the li- the narrative I'd learned, because my father-
- AMAubrey Marcus
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... I was, I think, s- subconsciously convinced he was in prison w- in his relationship, so (smacks lips) um, it took me a lot of awareness and unpacking to like realize that to the point whereas as I sit here today, I'm in a great relationship. Obviously, it has all of the same, you know, natural imperfection as any relationship, but one that I think is the most special thing I've ever experienced in my life. What's your journey been like with love? You have a, a unique point to your story, which you know I'm gonna talk about.
- AMAubrey Marcus
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
'Cause I, I know a lot of people ask you about it, which is ... I don't even know what the correct term is.
- AMAubrey Marcus
Polyamory.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Polyamory. I always say polygamy. I don't know why I say that.
- AMAubrey Marcus
Well, that would be multiple wives.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay, so-
- AMAubrey Marcus
Polyamory is multiple loves. So yeah, my journey with love was, was interesting, because, you know, again, I had my first major partnership was with wh- someone who's now my best friend and also the best man, quote, of my, of my wedding with my wife, is, was my former fiance, Kaitlin. And we had a relationship where she ... it was not pol- it was not polyamory, but however, we could bring other female lovers into, into our equation, right, into our-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Female lovers.
- AMAubrey Marcus
Right. So, other girls could, we could have sexual experiences with other women. And so that gave me kind of this release valve to my desires, because I simply ... again, I was bound by these kind of feelings of value and this feeling of anybody who I'm with is me living a different life, so I can't cheat. You know, there, there were, there was one moment where I did, I did actually cheat one time in my life, and it was so miserable, the feeling that I felt when I cheated on my partner. Like, that one time, I was like, "I just cannot do this." And I see ... and again, no judgment, you know, but I see so many successful and powerful men who are unfaithful to their partners. And to me, that's like going and skirting around the problem and just creating a whole bunch more problems. And it's also, it's, it's actually legitimately unethical, right? Like, you're, you're manipulating somebody. You're lying to them. You're not telling the truth. And so after that one experience of feeling how just awful I felt when I actually cheated on you ... it was a story I was in Moscow, blah, blah, blah. It doesn't fucking matter. Like fundamentally, I was like, "This ... I will not do this." Like, "This cannot be the way." And so in that relationship, the ability for us to have other lovers that were female, then it kind of satisfied that desire. Al- although the problem was is that I was still always kind of searching for that, and it was ... it wasn't quite right at that point for me, at that stage of my young stallion life, right? Wasn't quite right, but it was beautiful, and we had a beautiful relationship, and I love Kaitlin, and I love that relationship so much. But ultimately, I was ... you know, that wasn't working out. She didn't feel like she was gonna be the queen that was gonna help me build my empire, you know? She's a wild and magical woman, but she wasn't kind of that warrior queen focused energy that I was really looking for. And then Whitney came along, who is my next most significant partner-And I saw that in her, and I was like, "Aha. I think this is the one that can be with me, be by my side as I build on it to what it's going to become and I step forward in the world. She's got the, she's got the right stuff for that." So we started a relationship just purely monogamous. No other partners, nothing else. That lasted about 18 months and I still felt this strong desire to be with other women, to experience the goddess in many different faces. And I've never been any- been the type that just wants to have sex with somebody because that makes me feel good about myself. No, I, I legitimately love women. Like, I l- I love them. I'm like, it's the greatest delight for me to be with a woman. You know? And so, I had that natural desire. I wasn't willing to be unfaithful and cheat, so I went to Whitney and I said, "Hey, I have this idea. What about I still want to be with you, but I think I need to be polyamorous? And I know that for this to be fair, that means that you get to see anybody you want to. So if I get to do it, you get to do it." Unlike, you know, in the former relationship with Caitlin, I would've been so jealous and been like, "No man ever, never, under any circumstances. I'm the lion." You know? Like, w- I had these old, old other kind of constructs and ideas thanks to, you know, it was really the book Sex at Dawn by, you know, by Chris Ryan that actually opened my mind to this idea that there is a different concept that different tribes have utilized throughout, throughout history where we didn't have this posse- possessive, kind of jealous idea about what it means to have a partner, that we were open to having, you know, having your partner have multiple loves. And I understood philosophically that w- our love is like the sun. Like, it's shining on all of these different places, and to have somebody be like, "Your sunlight, your s- your erotic sunlight can only shine on me," I was like, "This is absurd. It doesn't make any sense to me." So philosophically, it didn't make sense, and I had my own desires, so I said, "All right, let's be polyamorous." And I thought that I would be okay with Whitney seeing other people. I thought I was gonna, I thought I was gonna breeze through 'cause I had a girlfriend first. So, Whitney, after a period of three months, she, first she was like, you know, "You're outta your mind. Go fuck yourself. (laughs) I'm out." (laughs) I was like, "That, that sucks, but I understand your decision. I'm not gonna change my decision. It's, it's the way forward." A few months later, she came back. She's like, "All right, let's try this." And I was already involved with somebody else, so I had a girlfriend, and then Whitney was still my primary partner, so that was the constellation. Primary partner is Whitney, she lived with me, and then girlfriend, who I would go meet at a different ... meet at her house or meet at a different place, and then have my own experiences with that partner. And then when Whitney ... You know, I, and I really didn't have the understanding of how hard this would be on the other side. I thought, like, "Yeah, it'll be easy." Like, I philosophically understood it. Then Whitney s- got her first partner, and I cannot describe to you the feeling that I felt when Whitney had her first lover. It was ... It broke me. It absolutely broke me. Even though I had agreed to it, even though I had acted on it on my end when she was with somebody else, I felt like I was gonna vomit, cry. I wanted to punch a wall. I wanted to just... I couldn't, I couldn't even handle it, and I d- and I also felt so ashamed for the fact that I had no, like, very little compassion for her having gone through this because I hadn't gone through it yet, and it was a really challenging kinda moment. And of course, what did I do? You know, whoever her partner was, I tried to, like, be better than them at whatever they were good at, and at one point, you know, Whitney was with a professional fighter, and I was like, "I'll be a good fighter." And I was like, "How stupid. Like, she doesn't love me because I'm a fighter. She loves me because I'm me." And that was one of the really powerful lessons that polyamory taught me, is you can't try to compete w- in somebody else's strength. You just have to compete to be the best version of you. And every time I would try to be like somebody else, I would become less attractive in her eyes, and, and that's, that was really a deep lesson. But for eight years, we did the polyamory thing. Uh, you know, we had our moments where we were off and on, and we'd have little breakups and little issues that would come up, but we both were free to see who we wanted to see and be with whoever we wanted to be with, with the understanding that we were primary partners. This had so many challenges and moments where every different boundary that we thought we had, "Well, all right, you can be with them but you can't be in love with them." Whoops, I fell in love with somebody. And then if, whoops, Whitney fell in love with somebody, and so that didn't work. So we're like, "Okay, I guess we're able to really be in love with somebody," but then if you're in love with somebody, then you wanna spend, you know, and that energy is so strong, uh, the technical term is limerence. It's that new relationship energy where you're just intoxicated with somebody. Well, you wanna be with them more, and then the primary partnership doesn't make any sense 'cause you, the person can feel that you'd rather be with somebody else, and it was just ... It was very, very challenging and also very, very beautiful. You know? The, the paramours that I had, and a paramour is the term for the, the other partners you have outside of your primary
- 1:01:13 – 1:21:21
Love & the truth about polyamory
- AMAubrey Marcus
partner, I had unbelievably beautiful relationships with them, and magical amazing moments, and magical moments with Whitney. You know, there was so much energy and passion and drama in that, in that period-But it was honest. You know, the thing about it was, is that it was honest. We told each other everything, you know, everything that happened. We told each other the truth. There was little pockets of withholding, where we didn't express exactly how we felt. And ... But every little minute dishonesty would get exacerbated into a massive, massive issue, because there was so much pressure in the system because of the natural emotions of jealousy and, and s- you know, worrying about whether our p- my partner really loved me the most. And, and that was a really beautiful and, and deeply challenging experience. And finally, you know, at the end, I, I kind of, I kind of was like, "I can do this," but I, I didn't master it. It was always, it was, it always got the best of me. I was never really fully ever okay with her seeing other people. I was okay with me seeing other people and loving her, but I could never quite do it. I wasn't up to the task. And that doesn't mean that somebody else can't be. I just, I gave it my best, and with all of my tools, all of my consciousness, all of my love, I couldn't do it. And so with that knowledge, then, you know, I met, of course I met Vailana. And Vailana, like, you know, immediately I, I'd been in love with her for a little while, and, and we could tell that story if we like, but I'd been through the polyamory journey, so when I met Vailana, I was like, "I'm not doing that again." You know, "I'm not doing that again."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you know anybody that's made that work?
- AMAubrey Marcus
For a time. And, and the thing is, is I think it's a, it's a journey of growth, and it's a journey of transformation and evolution. Um, when things are stagnant or stuck, it may be an opportunity to get things moving. I think I would rather have the, the ups and downs, the brisk wind, the, the floating into the s- into the twilight sunsets of just glorious, beautiful experiences, and then the car crashes into the rocky crags where it's all blood and broken glass everywhere, you know, metaphorically, of course. I kind of, my poet's heart kind of likes that more than just kind of steady, bored, diminishment of life force. There's no energy. There's no charge there. That never, that doesn't really appeal to me, so polyamory is one of the ways that you can really drive a lot of energy and a lot of growth and a lot of introspection and a lot of, a lot of evolution of your own character, uh, through that process, so ... Has anybody made it work long-term? It's rare, and I don't think I have a good model for it, because I think part of the problem is, is that the, the culture doesn't really support that yet, and I don't think our consciousness has evolved to a level where we can handle it. We don't have models for it. We have models of jealousy. It's in all of our songs. It's in all of our ... It's, it's everywhere. It's like we're flying agai- we're going upstream against a cultural zeitgeist, so if culture changes, if society changes, I think that will become more possible. It's, of course some people are doing it, and they're making it work. I haven't seen it personally really work on like a long-term level, but I think it's just because the culture hasn't blossomed for that to really be possible.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I- I've often pondered if there's some kind of, like, evolutionary Darwinistic r- reason why it doesn't work. And it would make sense from a Darwinistic perspective that I want my seed to pass on, and I want, I want my genes to survive, so if I, if there's another man with my partner, for example, then that's going to evolve me out of the gene pool.
- AMAubrey Marcus
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So there's got to be some kind of, you know ... One would assume there's some kind of in-built innate mechanism, called jealousy, to prevent that happening.
- AMAubrey Marcus
Yeah, and there's also the genetic impulse to actually, I mean, again, we're (laughs) we're having sex, but the impulse is to, i- the impulse is to reproduce, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AMAubrey Marcus
Like, that's where it's coming from, so yes, there's somebody actually sleeping with your partner, but you're sleeping with many other people too, so-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- AMAubrey Marcus
... you're still genetically, you know, giving the opportunity to actually-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Sprinkle seed.
- AMAubrey Marcus
... fertilize, you know, many different people, so there's a j- there is genetic support, I think, from like an evolutionary biology perspective, to this concept, right? But really to make it work, we gotta go back to that level two that we talked about earlier, which is community, which is tribe. 'Cause if it's for the good of the tribe, then it doesn't matter if it's your genetic l- you know, your genetic DNA. It's like will this be the best, will this be the best situation for the tribe? And if the tribe is in love, the tribe is thriving, the tribe has energy, the tribe has that life force, that, then that's accretive to the overall mission, but without that kind of tribe level understanding, and perhaps even that humankind level understanding, you can't actually, I don't think you can make it work.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I, I was reflecting as you were saying that about the tribe on various cult documentaries I've watched. (laughs)
- AMAubrey Marcus
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Where there's still jealousy, you know. Um, even though-
- AMAubrey Marcus
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... they're, they're a unit, they're one big family.
- AMAubrey Marcus
Of course.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You still see that jealousy throughout, so ...
- AMAubrey Marcus
Yeah. (laughs) I think that jealousy is less like about, uh, evolutionary biology and more about the ego. The ego knows itself in relative position. It's a construct that we create to help navigate our life and our, and our body and our soul, and so it's this idea, it's a story about who we are, and that story about who we are, we only know how good we are compared to somebody else. It's like, are you a good ping pong player? Well, that depends. Who am I playing?... you know (laughs) like, if I'm out with my mates, yeah, I'm a fucking good ping-pong player. If I'm going to a tournament, I'm the worst. So you know yourself in relative position to, to the context, and that's the problem. In this kind of polyamorous dynamic, there's always this thing of this person's getting loved more, or there's more attention here, or you're comparing all of these different aspects and attributes. And so until you can actually observe that ego identity construct from a, from a witness perspective, then (sighs) you really can't escape the trappings of comparing yourself and comparing your situation to somebody else's situation.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Violana. Is that say it again?
- AMAubrey Marcus
Oh, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Violana?
- AMAubrey Marcus
Violana.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Your face lights up when you say-
- AMAubrey Marcus
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... her name.
- AMAubrey Marcus
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why is that? What does she mean to you?
- 1:21:21 – 1:38:17
How to make any relationship work
- AMAubrey Marcus
the medicine, now the medicine lives in me, right? It, I've consumed it and it, and that consciousness is within me. So, I can't allow anything that, that I, that I need to take ownership for to exist. And, and then sometimes that'll come up in the past, I mean, I think as my consciousness evolves, different levels of, "I'm sorry," are elicited from me. I mean, I think over the past three years, you know, being with Vilanna and having separated from Whitney, there was probably a, a dozen or two dozen times where there was a new, "I'm sorry," that came out, because I actually could see it from a different level of consciousness now. And I mean, she's like, "All right, man." Like, "We split up." Like (laughs) , you know? Like, I think she appreciated it, and I think she's still working through her own, you know, through her own process with that. And it's our own process of, of feeling any grievances we've had. And, but I, you know, I just try to do my best to, to own, to own my fault and mistakes in it. And, um, and, and that's an evolving process. But I am held accountable to this idea of, no, no, I, like, I have to, I have to be honest, and I have to be real, and I have to own it. And it doesn't make me less than to admit any of these things. It, that's, that's the way. That actually makes you more than to be able to be that, and sometimes just the, have the humility to be like, "Yeah, I was an idiot," or, "I was, I made a mistake," or all of these things. And not, and then not pile on a bunch of shame on yourself either, to just know that you're in an evolutionary process. And through that evolutionary process, when you evolve, you're gonna be able to look back at your old self and be like, "Damn, you could've been a lot better." (laughs)
Episode duration: 1:47:59
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