The Diary of a CEOWhat No One Tells You About Success And Mental Health! - Building A $240M Dollar Empire!
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,093 words- 0:00 – 1:39
Intro
- JWJane Wurwand
You know, people who say, "How do you balance your life and your work?" I know that they hate one of those two parts in their own life. There is no work/life balance. 1983, we started the International Dermal Institute, which is still the number one training program in the industry. And we launched Dermalogica in January of 1986.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that business generates hundreds of millions of dollars a year.
- JWJane Wurwand
We knew that the big opportunity was going to be a product. Lots of people have great ideas every day. The difference? Most people can't execute, because the details are really important, and most people miss them or start to think they're petty. A brand triggers emotional responses. I'm not a diva, but I am strong and I know what makes a business successful. We can't be afraid that some people won't like what we say. We have to say it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
We both know that we could just spend all of our time just doing business. What's the cost of that?
- JWJane Wurwand
I would self-sabotage relationships. We were just working so hard, and Lucy came downstairs and she said, "Mum, I just..." And I said, "Lucy, for goodness' sake, what is wrong?" And she said, "I wanted to give you a hug. You look so cross." I was just stood there with my child in front of me, looking scared of me. That was the tipping point for me. I had to ask for help.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO, USA Edition. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.
- 1:39 – 12:43
How did you become the person you're today
- SBSteven Bartlett
Jane, as I delve deep into your story, into your book, it became so apparently clear to me that your early years, your childhood-
- JWJane Wurwand
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... were very, very formative. Can you tell me about those early years and how they shaped and molded you into the person you were to become today?
- JWJane Wurwand
I think at the time, obviously, I didn't realize exactly how formative my childhood was going to be. I think most of us look back at our childhood, for better or worse, and d- realize that's actually where so much of whatever I am as an adult came from. So I was born in Edinburgh, Scotland. I'm the youngest of four girls. My mum and dad, um, had been... They met in the Second World War in India. Dad was a little older than my mum. My mum was 38, my dad was 50 when he died of heart attack. Suddenly, not expected, did not know he was ill. My mother, at 38, with four children, had not worked since she married, and the reason was she was a trained nurse, but at that time in the UK, and it carried on until I think the early '70s, and it did here too, if you were a married woman, you gave up your job to a single woman because it was assumed that you didn't need the work. That was true in nursing and in teaching. So she hadn't worked since 1945. She also didn't know how to drive a car, and she had no financial literacy. But this woman, my mother, she pulled herself together. She got work as a nurse. She had a friend who was then working at the Western General Hospital in Edinburgh. She called her up. She said, "Pat, I need a job." She said, "What can you give me?" And she said, "I can give you a night shift 7:00 to 7:00," because I was two, so I wasn't going to school. My mum had to take care of me during the day and then go to work. And so everything was kinda determined right there. My mother drummed into every one of us, learn how to do something, because if you don't know how to do something, literally a skill set in your hands that you can turn on a penny and go into work right away, I don't... She w- she didn't know what she would've done without her training. And so that became absolutely concrete in my head. I have to be able to support myself. I have to be able to earn my own money, and I can't ever put my future in the hands of, of someone else's, um, income or success. And so yes, that was highly formative. It then led me to the life I th- I know I've led, and also what things I care about and what I think is important.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And your... The loss of your father at two and three quarters years old, what impact, in hindsight, did that have on you directly?
- JWJane Wurwand
I think it was huge. One thing, the, the emotion I remember feeling at the time was not grief exactly, because I wasn't quite sure what had happened to him. They didn't say to me right away, "He's dead." They... I was told he'd gone away. And then my sister Judy, who's next one up from me, she's six years older than me, told me directly, "He's not coming back. He's dead." And I... That... At that stage, I was about five, four and a half, five. I was going to school. And the next emotion I felt was, was shame that I didn't have a father. I didn't know anyone else that didn't have a father. I didn't know you could grow up in a family without a father, so I hid it. And as far as relationship and role modeling, I didn't realize then, but I do now. Here I am, I grew up in a household of very strong, capable women. That's how I saw them. They were all older than me, bigger than me. They helped me get dressed, helped me... (laughs) they did everything. I then went to an all-girls school, and I was... I had all women teachers. I was a Brownie and a Girl Guide. And so I'd never had that relationship role-played for me. I'd never really thought about there being... Not that I... Of course I knew there was a difference, but I hadn't really thought about the power dynamic. I hadn't s-... seen that, actually. And then I, I went to a friend's house when I was 11. Her dad came home. We were home about 4:30, and her dad came home at about 6:00, I think, and sat down right away, and her mom gave him a cup of tea, and he put on the TV, and I, I thought he was sick. I said, "Is your dad not well?" And she said, "No, he's fine." And I said, "Oh, well, oh," 'cause the only time I'd ever been given a cup of tea sitting in a chair (laughs) was when I was sick, and my mom would say, "Well, get up and, you know, get dressed, put on your dressing gown."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JWJane Wurwand
So I- I- and now, in later life, I realize it's impacted me a great deal. It- it- as- I've been married now to Raymond for well over 30 years. We got married in 1990, so what's that? No, that's longer, right? (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs)
- JWJane Wurwand
I'm like, "How- how long have I been married?" Forever. And I think that a lot in my relationship with Raymond, um, I thought I was always being very independent and doing the right thing by doing everything I could, but I also realize that was exclusionary. I- I can be very exclusionary of the other person, hard to ask for help, not because I consciously don't want to, but because emotionally, I don't feel I need to. That's not great.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JWJane Wurwand
So there's a lot to unpack and work through.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That formative, like, really pivotal advice that your mom gave you, which was learn how to do something-
- JWJane Wurwand
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... it seems so simple, but it was so clearly really profound for you and, and has been throughout your life. At that age, what is it that you wanted to learn how to do? What is it you wanted to be when you grew up? When you're, you know, 11, 11 years old, say?
- JWJane Wurwand
(laughs) Actually, I remember looking in the Bournemouth Evening Echo newspaper, and saying to my mom, "Look, this hair salon is hiring 15-year-old apprentices," and I think I was about 11, and I said, "I'm going to cut it out and keep it 'cause when I'm 16 and I leave school, I will apply." And- and my mom said, "Well, I think you'll stay at school longer, and I think you'll go to university," which no one in my family had, and I thought, "Well, maybe." But that was in my head. I- I- I- I wanted to- to- I got my first Saturday job at 13 working in a salon, and I saw firsthand proof that if you know how to do that, you know how to earn money. And then, when that salon hired a skin therapist, then called a beauty therapist, but I don't like the word beauty when applied to people's appearance, um, I realized that that's actually what I want to do. I want to be a skin therapist. So it's pretty, pretty early.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You don't end up going to university.
- JWJane Wurwand
At that stage, you went to university primarily if you were gonna follow a profession, legal, the law, or be a doctor, or an academic, or a pharmacist, or- I couldn't quite grasp the immediacy of how that was going to equip me to be self-determined quickly. You see, my biggest fear growing up, after my father had passed away, was that my mom would. I used to make these elaborate plans of what would happen if my mom died, and then how old was I? Would I be taken into foster care, or would I- would my older sister be able to be my guardian? And at that stage, my older sister was 15 when my dad died. But when my older sister turned 21 and I was eight, I was so relieved 'cause I knew now, she's an adult and married, she would be able to, uh, go and live with her. So I'd make all these plans of what would happen, and I wanted to be self-determined quickly. And- and so when I was looking at a long haul of three years' education maybe, I- I just couldn't attach myself to it. I wanted to be able to do a training that I could travel with, I could work with, it would be literally in my hands, and now I realize in my head and in my heart, and it could take me anywhere I wanted to.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That sounds like a consequence of the- the advice your mother had instilled in you, that learn how to do something-
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and she really had tried to make you sort of autonomous and self-determined-
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... for many reasons.
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So 19 years old you-
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you look at the newspaper.
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah. I look at the newspaper, and it's a Sunday, and it's freezing cold, uh, in England. It's- it's winter, I think 1977, and, um, freezing. And I had a gas meter, so you had to put coins in to get the heating on, and I never had an... You know, I was working as a, as a, uh... Disqualified, so I was- but I was still working as a junior in a salon, so I never had enough money. And, um, I had a boyfriend who said- with me, who said, "Jeez, it's bloody freezing, and what's the hottest place on Earth today? I just wanna know where it is." So I looked at the weather in the Sunday paper, and, uh, I said, "It's Johannesburg," and it was then, it was before we went into, you know, Celsius, um, I said, "It's 106," which was really hot. And he said, "God, I wish I was in Johannesburg." And I said, "Me too. Where's that?" And he said, "South Africa." Geography wasn't super strong for me. Turned over the page, and as I turned the page, there was a quarter page ad taken by the South African government for assisted passage, that if you would emigrate to South Africa, and I think Australia and Canada used to do the same thing as well in the UK, then the government of South Africa would pay your passage. They would assist it. It would cost you 40 pounds to go, which was really, it was a lot of money, but it wasn't that much money that we couldn't have scraped it together. And just on a whim, it was a Sunday, the next day salons were closed, it was a Monday, that's pretty typical still in salons, we called the number in London, and, um, got the papers 'cause there was no internet. You couldn't Google anything or look anything up. Filled them out, and emigrated to South Africa.
- SBSteven Bartlett
With what intention?
- JWJane Wurwand
Getting a job.... I was pretty good at what I did, and I knew I could get a job. I'll just get a job in a salon and I'll start working. And for assisted passage, you had to, um, fulfill one of the requirements, one of the jobs that they needed to hire for.
- 12:43 – 16:59
How did moving to South Africa impact you?
- JWJane Wurwand
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wow. And how did that phase of your life go? So from between 19 and 22, roughly-
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... when you were in South Africa? How... When you reflect on that, how was that experience?
- JWJane Wurwand
Well, it was hugely formative. First of all, um, we got... The boyfriend and I, Tony and I got married. It was easier to apply for assisted passage if you were a couple, and you would get housing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh.
- JWJane Wurwand
Now, I was also crazy about him, and, and he was about me, and off we went.
- SBSteven Bartlett
19 years old-
- JWJane Wurwand
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you got married?
- JWJane Wurwand
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wow.
- JWJane Wurwand
Not a, not a successful marriage. We didn't know each other very well. Great boyfriend, wrong husband. And so that lasted about a year when I was in South Africa. And yet there I am now on the other side of the planet with no family, no cell phones, no computer, no FaceTime. There was nothing like that. In order to call her home, I had to go to the post office in Cape Town and book an international call. And it was expensive, so I literally called home once a year.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Exhales.
- JWJane Wurwand
But I can work, which is great, 'cause I can support myself. My marriage is broken up, and I've got to wait to get a divorce, 'cause there's no such thing as a sudden divorce in South Africa. It's then operating under Dutch Reform Church law. So I had to be separated for two years, and then they give you a decree nisi. And then I could apply for one more year, uh, to be separated, never go, not going back together again. And only then do you get your decree absolute. So it was three years before I could get a divorce.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I read that you walked out one day, eh, essentially from the marriage, and he had emptied your personal bank account and-
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you were pretty much still in your tracksuit on the street on your own.
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah. Was in the street. My clothing had been thrown out of an upstairs window of our rented terraced house, along with some garbage bags, trash bags, rubbish bags. (laughs) And I picked up the stuff that wasn't cut up, 'cause he cut up a lot of my stuff as he threw it out. Stuffed it in the trash bag, got in my car, and I drove to a friend's house. And as I drove away, I can, I feel it now, I can feel myself sitting in the car. It was a Mazda, and I was driving away, and I looked in the rearview mirror and I could hardly see 'cause I was crying. I was really scared, and emotionally very devastated, uh, and I was shaking. And I looked in the rearview mirror and I just promised myself, "This will never happen again. I will never allow myself to be this vulnerable. I will never allow myself to ever be in a situation that I run away with my clothes in trash bags. I'm going to pull my act together in a big way." Eh, that was a lot that happened in that four years. That was probably the most formative time of my life. What seemed like the greatest calamity...'cause remember now, my mother had been widowed, but I'd now just walked out of a marriage. And at that age, I guess I thought it was, that was my marriage. Not like, "Oh, I'll have more."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JWJane Wurwand
I've just walked out of my marriage. I am now alone. The very thing that happened to my mother. I didn't have kids, but I think all of that was wrapped up. And, you know, I probably should've had a lot of therapy a lot sooner, but I didn't. So all of that was wrapped up. I felt incredibly vulnerable. Physically vulnerable. So I, I hit the ground running, and I'd now got a job working, uh, for a company, for a skincare company selling to salons. It was Redken, which is now owned by L'Oreal, but then they were privately owned by an entrepreneur, Paula Kent Meehan, in Los Angeles. And she started Redken with her hairdresser, Jerry Red- Redding. That's where the name Redken came from, Jerry Redding and Paula Kent. And so I had a company car. I worked really hard. I was determined to do well, get promoted, which I did. And within a year, I had been made the brand manager for the skincare division, uh, and transferred to Johannesburg. And Johannesburg was where I met Raymond.
- 16:59 – 28:12
Starting up as an entrepreneur and moving to LA
- JWJane Wurwand
- SBSteven Bartlett
And so how does that then lead you from Johannesburg to Los Angeles?
- JWJane Wurwand
That was Raymond Wohrwind. We worked together for the next year. He was my boss's boss, so I didn't report directly to him, but I would be in meetings with him, 'cause I was the brand manager for the skincare division. And, uh, he was brilliant. He is brilliant, and I love and respect and admire that. We would have conversations at the, at the table at work, and everyone would be positing some idea or another, and he would see right through everything to the conclusion. He's very pragmatic. "Okay, I've heard everything. This is, this is what I'm thinking. This is what we should do." And he was right. And I saw that, and I loved that, and I felt very inspired by that. And he saw in me my creativity, 'cause I would usually be the one at that table that was saying, "I know we're out of stock of that color of foundation 'cause we haven't had a shipment from Los Angeles, but I think that was in our gift sets last Christmas. Can we see how many we've got left over in the warehouse? Break open the pallets, because it's now March-"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JWJane Wurwand
"... and just take out the foundation and sell that?"... and that actually was a true story. That's what we did. So he loved my creativity, and my ideas and thinking, and we would brainstorm as a group of several different companies, new product ideas, et cetera. I loved his brilliance, and I guess over that, we fell in love, and, uh-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JWJane Wurwand
... started secretly dating.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Secretly dating.
- JWJane Wurwand
It's not-
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's always the way. (laughs)
- JWJane Wurwand
... so secret, but yeah, secretly dating. There was no, um, there was no sort of HR department that would legally have stopped that then. I suppose they would now. I don't think it could happen. I'm not sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JWJane Wurwand
But, um, yeah. And he was, he had been in process for a green card for two years, and his green card came through while we were dating. And he said, "I've got 90 days to go to the States and claim my green card. If I don't go in 90 days, I forfeit it." And I said, "It's like the golden ticket in Willy Wonka's chocolate bar. You can't, you can't say no. You don't say no to the green card. (laughs) Get on a plane and go." And he said, "Well..." You know, and we were really, you know, serious about each other. I said, "Doesn't matter. If we're meant to be together, we will. Go." And he said, "Okay. All right." And we sort of broke up, because he got on a plane and flew to New York, and I had no idea I was gonna come here. I didn't, I wasn't gonna get (laughs) a green card. So off he went, and that was in May of '82. And in the August of that year, Redken, who were based in Los Angeles, wanted me to come and do a training program here, 'cause I was running the brand, and so I came on a two-week trip to LA. And at that stage, Raymond had moved from New York to Chicago and from Chicago to LA. So of course, we'd kept in contact, writing letters-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JWJane Wurwand
... air mail letters-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JWJane Wurwand
... and I knew he was in LA, and we arranged to meet, and then we knew this was it, and I s- I made a decision when I was on the flight home, back to South Africa, "I'm going to be there." It was, um, September when I flew back. "I'm gonna be there by Christmas. I'm gonna make a plan." And I did.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What was the plan?
- JWJane Wurwand
I don't know if it's completely legal, but I'll tell you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JWJane Wurwand
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Don't need to know.
- JWJane Wurwand
So what happened was while I was here, we wanted to explore how I would get immigration, how I'd get a work permit, and so we went to see an immigration attorney here in Los Angeles, and the easiest way was to marry Raymond, who had a green card. I wasn't gonna do that, 'cause I just, I, I literally didn't get my divorce until a few weeks after that, so, in South Africa, so that wasn't gonna happen. And I wasn't coming imminently. I was thinking, you know, in a year or two, and I just wanted to understand what it would take, how I could go about it. And so, um, I wasn't gonna get married for, for the, the security of being able to immigrate, and I wasn't sure I wanted to marry him anyway, because we, you know, we'd been dating, but (laughs) I wasn't gonna make that mistake again. And it was 10 years before we married, in fact. But what happened was we went through every single option of, um, how you could get a work permit. I didn't fit any of them. I said, "Well, what if I ha- you know, I'm a trained skin therapist." And he said, "It's, you know, the training doesn't exist. The training exists here." And I said, "Well, I'm a trained teacher in skin therapy," which didn't exist here, and actually only 70 of the 50 states even had a license to do skincare, but California was one of them. So what we, what we put together was, we started a company, Raymond started a company, but we both together started it. We registered it in Sacramento, and it cost $300 to start that company on the understanding that I would go back to South Africa, I would be made a job offer by that company in a management position, and I would transfer to the States. The caveat was, I had to, I went to South Africa, had to set up a company in South Africa, 'cause you had to have a company in both places, and that company had to offer someone in management in that other country a job.
- SBSteven Bartlett
A transfer.
- JWJane Wurwand
Transfer, and, and it was not illegal. It was a slight loophole-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JWJane Wurwand
... which I have to say has been closed-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JWJane Wurwand
...'cause now you, I think you have to have 10 staff that already work for you in the States, and you have to have tax returns for the last several years. But that wasn't the case then, and I transferred myself in on an intercompany transfer visa.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you and Raymond, um, end up starting a company together-
- 28:12 – 34:55
What made you a good entrepreneur?
- JWJane Wurwand
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you think about why the training was so successful...
- JWJane Wurwand
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and why you as an individual and your husband succeeded in that, what are the, like, factors where you think, "Do you know what? That's the thing that made us different," whether it's character or execution or whatever it is?
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah, I know exactly what it was. I'd love to tell you it was because I wrote the most brilliant curriculum and I am the best teacher, neither of which is true. I wrote a good enough curriculum and I'm a good enough teacher. But what we did, somewhat inadvertently, sort of accidentally on purpose, if you know what I mean, community. We knew, 'cause I had been, that skin therapists are isolated. We work in rooms on our own, and the busier you become, the more full your book is with appointments, you're in the treatment room, which is about an eight-by-ten room, with your client. I- i- it's not, and was not then, performed out in the public, like hairdressing. When you're a hairdresser, you can look across the salon and see five other people doing your job th- as you do, and you learn from them, and you're inspired by them, and you have a feeling of community in a salon. And I knew that because I'd been part of full-service salons where they're cutting hair and giving skincare treatments and doing nails. And so we knew that what was missing was this sense of community. All of our students that were coming to the classes, none of them really knew each other. They'd never met other skin therapists. There were only 2,000 in the whole state, so it wasn't surprising. So we doubled down. Our whole mantra was make every excuse, think of every idea to bring our people together. Guest speaker evenings, power breakfasts, working lunches, summer picnics, holiday party. We were doing everything. Any idea we saw, from what we saw in a coffee shop to what we saw in a shoe repair shop, we were doing whatever we thought would help us pull people together for the ostensible reason of training in skincare, but in fact, was making them into a community. So much so that after about 18 months, two years, my students...... said to me, "You know what? We're like family." And I said, "Yes. Although, we don't have the same accents." And they laughed, and they said, "No, we're not family. We're a tribe." It is human nature. That was the core of our success. And what I see now and in the last two years of, of COVID, we've never needed it more than now. More than ever, we need human connection. We are sick of our Netflix and our streaming and our everything. We want human connection. We wanna see each other. I wanna see your smile. I wanna see your face. I want to hug you. I want to touch you. And guess what? The industry that I have spent my life in has never been more relevant than now, 'cause we're the cavalry. That's what we do as our work. We literally touch people, not because they're to look pretty, pampering, luxury, or indulgence. Because human connection is the deepest form of unconditional love.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's such a profound, but seemingly obvious piece of advice for how to build a, an engaged customer base-
- JWJane Wurwand
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... how to build great company culture, how to build an audience if you're a social media influencer. But that-
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But you're right. It's, it's right at the heart of our sort of Maslovian innate human needs is to f-
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... belong to a tribe.
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah. And what a lot of people do as they become successful, they start to distance themselves from it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JWJane Wurwand
They start to think, "That was... I'm bigger than that," or, "I'm better than that." What? There's nothing better than being connected to other people in a loving, kind, empathetic way. I talk a lot, you know, in my book, th- that you know, about empathy and the power of kindness, and I continue to learn that all the time and, and be accessible. I would always be accessible to my students. When we built our premises, our lunchroom was for students and staff. I would eat lunch in the lunchroom with everyone else. We all did, because we wanted... I want to be with everybody else (laughs) . I don't wanna be on my own. I want to be with everyone else, and I want everyone else to know that they can be with all of us. We're all in this together. Whether it's somebody... When you own a business and you think you're all that, well, guess what? The people that are in your janitorial staff, your housekeepers, they're making you look good every day-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JWJane Wurwand
... because that's the image that people have when they come in. When I go to a restaurant, the first thing I notice is, how clean is it? How well-cared for is it? Is it loved? Is this space loved, and can I see that it's loved? Are people taking pride in this space? 'Cause all of that is non-communicate... you know, that's non-verbal communication, and it all matters. And we forget it because we start to think it's us. We're the things. We're the ones. We're the one. It's nonsense, complete and utter nonsense, and the minute you start to feel that way, you will fall.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How would your team members that have worked for you, say, for 10 years describe you as a leader, in terms of that, that balance you described of empathy and kindness and then also strength and decisiveness?
- JWJane Wurwand
Well, there's a lot of people that have worked, had, have and had worked for me for more than 10 years. I'm thinking now of Lori McGregor, who's our director of comm- senior director of comm- communications. She's in the studio right now, and I could ask her, because she's certainly worked with me closely for many years. I hope they would describe me as fair. I hope they would describe me as kind. I hope they would describe me as accessible. I hope they'd also say I was collaborative, 'cause that's what I like to think I am. I believe I am.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What about the, the weaknesses?
- JWJane Wurwand
Lots. M- more than I could probably name my strengths. I'm, I'm impatient. I want things to be done now rather than tomorrow. It can make me careless. I see the flaws. I see the good, but I also see the flaws. If I walk into a salon and somebody missed a piece of hair that wasn't swept up, I'm gonna see it first. I just am. I can't help it. I have that kind of vision. Yes, the product looks amazing. Yes, the lighting is great. Yes, I love your uniform, and I love the storefront and the great job you did with the windows. But why the hell is that hair in the corner not swept up? I can't take my eyes off it. But I'm also not above going in the back, finding the dust pan and brush, and brushing it up myself, 'cause I will.
- 34:55 – 38:13
Attention to detail
- JWJane Wurwand
- SBSteven Bartlett
Will you say it like that?
- JWJane Wurwand
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JWJane Wurwand
I'll say it just like that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know when you say it like that-
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... about the hair being on the floor-
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... that it will make people feel a certain way? I'm the same.
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, why do you say it like that?
- JWJane Wurwand
Well, I would s- I probably... The likelihood would be I would start that conversation by saying to the person, "I'm sorry, do you have a dust pan and brush in the kitchen, in the staff room?" And they'll say, "Uh, yeah. Why?" I'll say, "Just, just show me where it is. You don't have to do it." And I would come out with a dust pan and brush, and I would sweep it up. And then I'd say, "Because the only thing i could look at when I came in here was that hair in the corner. Now, let's talk about all the great things you do, but let's never forget that that's important." It might be some version of that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why is that important?
- JWJane Wurwand
But I certainly wouldn't say... I wouldn't walk in and go, "I'm sorry. Excuse me. Before we do anything, I can't see a thing, uh, that hair in the corner, someone sweep it up." I wouldn't do that. I'm not-
- SBSteven Bartlett
No.
- JWJane Wurwand
... a diva. But I am strong, and I know what makes a business successful, and I can't allow a business to not hear what my thought is if i think it will make them more successful, and I know it will. It's not a matter of taste or style. That's a matter of hygiene. So, then I'm fierce.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that attention to detail, tell me how important it is in your view. Now you've been in business for so long, how important is... 'Cause some people say, "Oh, that's petty." They'll go-
- JWJane Wurwand
No, it's huge. It's everything. The devil and God are in the details. Here's the deal. There is no shortage of a good idea-Lots of people have great ideas every day. The difference? Most people can't execute. And if they can execute, they don't execute well. And if they execute well, they can't maintain it. How do you stay relevant and growing in an industry like, mm, my industry, cosmetics, makeup, skincare, hair, fashion? How do you stay relevant for almost 40 years and stay the leader if you're not paying attention to detail? You'll peak and you'll drop in a quick minute. You're gonna be a party that happened overnight. You're not gonna be a relationship that lasts a lifetime. Two different things. Both can be fun, but one is a long game that you're playing, and one is a short-term fix that you want, and that's very different. It's like dating and a marriage, or dating and a long relationship. You're playing a long game, and for me, business was always about playing the long game. We didn't build Dermalogica to flip it and sell it. We could have done that after three or four years, and if it wasn't going well, we probably would have done. But we were self-funded on $14,000, highly profitable, and took it all the way through to acquisition in 2015 by Unilever. And I'm still involved with Dermalogica. I still function. My title is chief visionary, and when things are going wrong or I think you're making the wrong turn, I'm gonna tell you. You don't have to listen to me. You don't have to agree with me. But I'm going to h- I have to know that I said it, because the details are really important and most people miss them or start to think they're petty.
- 38:13 – 41:51
How to turn your weakness into a strength
- JWJane Wurwand
- SBSteven Bartlett
The other thing you mentioned, which I, I found fascinating is you added to your list of weaknesses impatience.
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But you are well aware of the strengths of impatience.
- JWJane Wurwand
Of course. That's the thing. Whatever is your weakness, flip it, it's like a coin. The other side is your strength.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well-
- JWJane Wurwand
Now, I know that sounds di- like complete opposite, right? But I'm impatient, so as a weakness, especially when I'm tired, oh, I'm not making tiredness an excuse, but especially when I'm tired, it can make you angry. It can make you short-tempered. It can make you, um, rude.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm. Amen.
- JWJane Wurwand
And so you have to take a moment and get yourself in check, because impatience can also lead to a fast pace, to a quick idea, to a rapid execution, to a sense of urgency, to a sense of excitement, to a sense of enthusiasm, to a definite sense of leadership in, in the team. So that very quality is your strength and is your weakness, and you have to be able to... I always, I say in the book, you have to have a truth teller. Now, hopefully your truth teller is yourself-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JWJane Wurwand
... so that you can say, "That wasn't my best self," or, "That was not... That was, n- my strength at its weakest moment." And if you don't, if you're not good at being truthful or honest with yourself, you better have somebody around you that is.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JWJane Wurwand
Because you'll have a lot of, you know, arse kisses around you, especially when you're successful. Not when you start-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JWJane Wurwand
... (laughs) but especially when you're successful. And you have to know, it's not, not necessarily because they're insincere, but they're not gonna be your truth tellers. So that's lovely to have and it's lovely maybe for your ego or your, whatever it is, for inviting to parties, but you have to have some truth tellers.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Have you got truth tellers around you?
- JWJane Wurwand
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That will tell you when you're, you're out of line or that-
- JWJane Wurwand
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you've been rude?
- JWJane Wurwand
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Who are those people?
- JWJane Wurwand
My number one truth teller is Raymond.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JWJane Wurwand
He will tell me he has no filter. He has no ability to edit. He's about the kindest and most generous person I've ever known. He's certainly the smartest person. But he has absolutely no edit button. And I will say to him sometimes, "Raymond, I cannot believe you just said that." He said, "But it's true! It's true!" And he's right. Okay, so that's Raymond. And then I have people in my tight team. Natalie Byrne, who works with me on strategy for our nonprofit, she will call me and has many times, sometimes late at night, and say, "Jane, I can't stop thinking about this. I think what you said today was off base or off the mark," or whatever it is, and we talk about it, and she's almost 100% right. And that's... I tell her, "Natalie, I love you because you tell me the truth. Don't ever..." She said, "I don't wanna hurt your feelings." I said, "Natalie, please, you will not hurt my feelings." (paper rustles)
- SBSteven Bartlett
I had a few words to say about one of my sponsors on this podcast. My girlfriend came upstairs yesterday when I was having a shower, and she said to me that she tried the Huel protein shake, which lives on my fridge over there, and she said it's amazing. Low calories. You get your 20 odd grams of protein, you get your 26 vitamins and minerals, and it's nutritionally complete. In the protein space, there's lots of things, but it's hard to find something that is nice, especially when consumed just with water, and that is nutritionally complete. If you haven't tried the Huel protein product, do give it a try. The salted caramel one, if you put some ice cubes in it and you put it in a blender and you try it, is as good as pretty much any milkshake on the market, just mixed with water. It's been a game changer for me because I'm trying to drop my calorie intake and I'm trying to be a little bit more healthy with my diet, so this is where Huel fits in my life. Thank you, Huel, for making a product that I actually like.
- 41:51 – 45:55
Leadership and decision making
- SBSteven Bartlett
(paper rustles) On the point of impatience, one of the things I read that I really resonated with a lot, and it's in fact something that Barack Obama had said when I, I spoke at conference with him in Brazil, is this idea of making decisions-
- JWJane Wurwand
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... before you're at 100%.
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And people really struggle with this, but some people ab- it's the most liberating thing they can hear. And I've had-
- JWJane Wurwand
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... actually a guest come on this podcast that said, "When you said that, that changed my life." I read you, you said the exact same thing. You said, you know, get to 70%.
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah, that's my number. I don't even know if that's the real number, but I say-
- SBSteven Bartlett
But it just feels right.
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah, 70% sounds right. If you've got 70% of the information that you will need to make a decision, make it. Don't... You will not get 100% because by the time you even think you're at 100%, the situation's changed. It needs a decision now.Leadership requires decisiveness, and you need to make a decision immediately, ah, whether it's in a war-torn country or whether it is in a strive-driven (laughs) life. I mean, you need to make the decision. So, I would say to people who I would hire, "Let me give you the lowdown of how this works," 'cause most people wanna know, "How do I become successful in this company?" let's say, or words to that effect. And my answer was always, "You will get 10 points for making the right decision. You will get no points for making the wrong decision. But you will get minus 10 points if you don't make a decision." You can't be in a meeting and not speak up, 'cause then you're an audience. We don't want an audience. You can get a chair and sit over there and listen if you want to, but you must have an opinion and you must state it. Uh, that's what you're here for. That's why we want you. Decisiveness is critical, because in order to make that decision, I have to hear all the opinions. Doesn't mean I'm going to, it's gonna persuade me differently, although it might. But ultimately, the buck stops with the person who's going to have to make that ultimate decision, and you must make it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
One of the other quotes which I found really interesting and inspiring was that your aim when you started Dermalogica was to piss off the 80% and to please the 20%. That's- that's a quote taken from your book, Skin in the Game.
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah. Raymond, that's Raymond's phrase. In fact, what happened was we were... I won't use the word beauty, and- and so I was bemoaning the fact that, you know, people didn't agree with that. You know, I used to get people saying this, you know, "You're running down our industry. You're a disgrace (laughs) to our industry," because I wouldn't say I was a beauty therapist and, or a beautician, and I mean, this w- these are all great names. I'm happy for you to call yourself anything you want to. Just doesn't apply to me. I don't apply that to my work. So I was having this sort of, like, rant with Raymond, and he said, "But we can't be afraid that some people won't like what we say. We have to say it." We actually ran out an add-on based on that conversation, which was Mel, w- who worked front desk for us, holding a sign saying, um, "We're not pretty." And at the bottom, we just put the company logo. And because... and- and Ray said, "We ha- understand something's was a team of us marketing. We have to be prepared to piss off 80% or we'll never turn on 20%. We'll be middle of the road, mediocre, average, palatable, but not definable." That's a product. That's not a brand. A brand has a voice. A brand has personality. A brand triggers emotional responses. And so that became our kind of watchword in marketing. We need to piss off 80% and turn on 20%. We don't need everyone to like us, and if we're not being decisive and if we're not being truthful and if we're not being, um, slightly disruptive, um, we're not being true to ourselves. And if we're not doing any of that, then, um, everyone's gonna like us, but not a lot. No one's gonna hate us, but not a lot, and we can't walk that middle ground.
- 45:55 – 50:48
Dermalogica's journey
- JWJane Wurwand
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, it was a couple years into your training company, um, that you launched Dermalogica.
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah, so 1983, we started the International Dermal Institute, and we launched Dermalogica in January of 1986.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And the resistance you faced, talk to me about the resistance and the challenges you faced in trying to launch that company, 'cause I know there were plenty.
- JWJane Wurwand
(inhales) Well, at that time, we, everything was sort of, uh, the industry was segmented into cosmetics, m- that included skincare, haircare, makeup, whatever you can think of, artifice, decoration. That's why I don't ever put skincare in the cosmetic industry, which is an amazing industry and I love it, uh, but it's not my industry. My industry is skincare. It's very specific and it's different and it's closely related to nutrition, healthcare and, um, and- and self- self-care, so, and human connection. So therefore, when we started, we wanted to form this hybrid between a cosmetic and a pharmaceutical. There was nothing in the middle of those two things then, 1986. But remember, we're l- this is, conversation's happening in '85, because we launched in '86. So we wanted to put together this thing between the two. So what did that mean? It had to look like a pharmaceutical, but perform like a cosmetic. It had to be cosmetically elegant, but it couldn't look luxury. It couldn't be a pink jar with a gold lid. So all of that idea of branding influenced what our voice was gonna be, the name. Derma means skin. Logica means sensible, sense. Simple, serious, and unique, that was kind of our mantra. So, we- we took a lot of pushback for that. We were told our packaging's ugly, uh, "Why don't you use jars? Jars are, you know, the industry standard, and they're disgusting." And y- because they contaminate with bacteria, not just from your hands, but also because we tend to use our products in bathrooms now, not at dressing tables in your dressing room. And in a bathroom, E. coli bacteria is airborne. There's more bacteria in your bathroom than anywhere else, so you really don't want that in a jar of cream. It's like people have a bar of soap in their shower, and they take that bar and somebody uses the bar and washes their bits and pieces, and the next person gets in and washes their face. It's disgusting. (laughs) So, we were talking about all of this, and we were getting pushback. And we just, we just weathered it, and, uh, I spoke at- at a big conference for the industry in Glasgow, a world conference in 1987. And I was speaking about this kind of thing, and after... I had 25 minutes assigned to me for my presentation, and, uh, after I think it was about nine minutes, the organizers came up and switched the mic off.... and asked me to leave the stage, 'cause they said what I was talking about was counterpoint to kind of anarchy in the industry. And what I was talking about was that salons should not be gender-specific, that we shouldn't have male salons and female salons. In fact, there is no gender binary. And we should sell product in our salons, because clients need to have product to take home and maintain the results they just paid us for in the treatment room. And apparently, me suggesting that there is no binary in a target market for our work, skin care, and skin care is not a luxury, it should be a necessity for everyone, and we should retail products, was deemed to be an anarchy in the industry. Now, it pissed off probably 80% of the people, I guess, in that room. I don't know. But the 20% of skin therapists who heard that message crowded our stand there at the trade show that was part of that conference and applauded. When I got back to our booth, there were a crowd of skin therapists applauding-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JWJane Wurwand
... because they were waiting to have a business, a profession, an industry to be proud of, and it was not a hobby or something I did for pin money or something I did on the side or something that, you know, it's my little thing, I love skin, I don't make any money at it. They said, "We need a career. We need a profession. We need an industry and a voice that'll speak for us, because we love this work and we want it to be profitable. Otherwise, how do we pay the rent?" And so that was my rallying call. The 20% were always my tribe.
- 50:48 – 57:45
The cost of working hard
- JWJane Wurwand
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think that's, it's so unbelievably important, especially as it relates to marketing and branding, to, to have a perspective, to stand for something, or else you fall into this category of, like, indifference and people, trying to please everyone and pleasing no one, as you say.
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I, you know, the, the business did phenomenally well as well. So Dermalogica, you made a million dollars roughly in your first year?
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Eventually, that business gets acquired by Unilever.
- JWJane Wurwand
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Your other company still, to this day, is going incredibly strong. As you say, it's the, the number one in the world in its category. I think I read that you had 1,400 employees?
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Or something like that?
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Staggering.
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that business generates hundreds of millions of dollars a year. How hard did you have to work? How many hours were you working in those early Dermalogica days?
- JWJane Wurwand
Oh, it's a blur. 24. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
24? Wow.
- JWJane Wurwand
Ser- no, seriously, um, the minute we woke up, 7:00. Earlier if it was something, you know, we were fretting about, or a trade show that we had to pack up and go. Uh, all the way through till we fell asleep. Uh, I don't, there is no work/life balance. It's all your big messy life. You know, people who say, "How do you balance your life and your work?" I know that they hate one of those two parts in their own life. I've never wanted to. My, it's not that my life is my work or my work is my life. It's all part of my life, and I want all of it. So I try and make it happen. I can't do it all at the same time. I waited till I was 36 to have my first child. I really thank God that I was able to have two children, and kinda snuck in (laughs) what I feel under the, under the rope, and a lot of people that, that doesn't happen for them. I feel really grateful for that. But the reason, one of the reasons we put off having children was we, we were just working so hard and traveling. It was word of mouth. Where there was no social media. There were no influencers. The influencers were our skin therapists, and it took, word of mouth meant you had to find someone and tell them, so we were working every trade show. I was flying to New York where all the magazines were being published, and with my box of products, and I was literally sitting in the lobby of Condé Nast, hoping that any one of the editors from any one of their magazines, you know, please God it might be Vogue, will come downstairs and I can grab them in the lobby before they get out the door, or see them as they get in the elevator. And that was before they had secure elevators, so you could get into the elevator with someone and give them a, literally an elevator pitch-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JWJane Wurwand
... before they got to the 14th floor where their magazine was. A- and I, and I was lonely and I was scared, and I would go to Vogue and, and, you know, a- all the magazines, or Hearst Publishing, and, and just sit there with my little box of products thinking, "What am I doing?" I was just like, "Pull it together," because you've got to keep watching those doors. When those elevator doors open, if it's someone you've gotta go over and say, "One minute," and press that sample of Skin Prep Scrub into their hands. And, and it worked.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wh- what's the cost of that though, that working, you know, seven days a week, tremendous hours? What is the cost?
- JWJane Wurwand
I think the greatest cost is friendships. I had friends who really were annoyed that we were just never available. Me, as a person, and Ray and I as a couple, 'cause we came as a couple really, so, um, we were never available for Sunday brunch. We couldn't go out on a Saturday night 'cause I was teaching on a Sunday. I taught every Sunday. Uh, we were running errands on a Saturday. We were doing laundry every night after the class. And we lost a lot of friends that I look back and I'm sorry that we lost them, because I liked them and I thought that our friendship might have a shot at withstanding it. But the friends who h- are still our friends understood it, and they talk about it now and say, "Oh my goodness, remember when..." And we say, "Yes." You know, I would, I would out, I would invite everyone for dinner, but we were having Indian takeout because I, I couldn't cook. I mean, not, I can cook but I didn't have time to. I didn't have time to do the shopping. There was no Instacart. We kept our closest friends and our dearest friends are still with us, but I think friendship is the thing, the thing you lose.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did you have to... 'Cause I'm, I'm thinking, like, once upon a time I, I, um, I was in a relationship with someone I worked with. Did you have to make-... time, like, you know, romance time.
- JWJane Wurwand
Like date night?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Date night.
- JWJane Wurwand
No.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And all that stuff. Did you, have you ever done anything like that?
- JWJane Wurwand
Never.
- SBSteven Bartlett
No?
- JWJane Wurwand
I've never had a date night.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- 57:45 – 1:05:42
Therapy and finding who you are
- SBSteven Bartlett
You made a comment earlier on about therapy.
- JWJane Wurwand
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I thought it was, uh... I wasn't sure if it was flippant or serious. But, uh-
- JWJane Wurwand
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Have you ever been to therapy?
- JWJane Wurwand
No.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And what, what for?
- JWJane Wurwand
I had not seen a therapist, although I now realize I really should have, I'm quite positive about that, until, um, about five years ago. And what happened five years ago, it was pretty soon after we'd sold the company, which was momentous, but I felt like I was dealing with it fine. Um, Raymond lost his father, passed away. We had a house in Santa Barbara that we were... That was our forever house. We, we went up to Santa Barbara, we raised our kids every summer up there. It's a beach community about 80 miles north of Los Angeles. That's our go-to place where we feel safe, we feel protected. If we ever had a, a, a staff event that we wanted to have a small group and discuss stuff, we would do it in Santa Barbara. We had meetings there. We... It was just like our place. And we had this great house, like a farmhouse, and, and I loved the garden, and I, I pl- replanted the garden, and I- I- I loved the house. And in January of 2018, Santa Barbara had a massive, um, fire, the Thomas Fire. And soon after, there was flash flooding and giant mudslide from the mountains above. And our house was destroyed. And if we had been in it, which we were not... And the only reason we were not is this mudslide happened the late hours of January 8th, early morning January 9th. And Lucy, our youngest child's birthday is January 8th, and we came back to LA to celebrate it with her friends here. If we'd been in our house in Santa Barbara, we wouldn't have made it out. A huge, massive boulder came straight through the master bedroom, which was on the ground floor. And we would've, we would've been killed. That was the tipping point for me. And to begin with, I felt like I just wasn't coming to terms with the fact that we'd lost the house. And Raymond was becoming really worried about me, and he kept saying, "Jane, I cannot believe you're attaching this much to a, to a place, to a house, to a possession, to our stuff. It's stuff. Like, we're safe." And for some reason, I just couldn't put it down. I couldn't get through it. I, I was carrying it with me like a weight. And I wasn't sleeping, and I started not sleeping, and I went for 41 nights with less than 40, four hours sleep a night. I clocked it. And I went to see my doctor, who said, "I, I think you sh- need to... We need to book you into the sleep clinic at UCLA, the University of California, Los Angeles." And there was a three-month wait list. So I decided I was gonna go talk to my doctor about sleeping tablets. And I went, and he recommended Ambien. And I'd never taken Ambien, and I, and I really didn't know if I wanted to start taking that. And he casually said, "Well, maybe, you know, psychologically there's a reason you're not sleeping." So I decided I'd go see a psychiatrist who I knew. Our youngest child had had an eating disorder and had seen this person, this doctor. And I went to her and I said, "I'm not sleeping." And she said, "Let me do some cognitive testing," which she did. And then she said, "Okay, you are c- Did you drive here?" And I said, "Yeah." And she said, "You shouldn't drive home."... you cognitively should not be, you should not be driving. We've gotta get you sleeping. And through trial and error, she tried every sleeping tablet on the market, and I- nothing helped me. 10 milligrams of milligram didn't help. I would wake up after three hours. And ultimately, she said, "Jane, you don't have an insomnia problem. You have an anxiety problem." And I had to dig in and deal with it. And of course, as I dug into losing the house, it wasn't about the house. The house was representative of every loss I've ever had in my life, going all the way back to when I was two and three-quarters years old and lost my father. Had to go all the way back and dig in and unpack it and realize why, not who I am, but why I am who I am. Had that not happened, had I not been able to unpack all of that and then realize how much I had in that suitcase and which pieces it was okay to put in a cupboard and close it, know it's there but not have to wear it every day, and which were the bits I needed to wear every day 'cause it was so much part of who I am, I'd- I know I couldn't have written the book, and I don't know that I would be in the place I am today.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is it the awareness of what's going on in the suitcase that- that is the liberating thing? Or is there also, like, tools and techniques and strategies of dealing with triggers or moments that...
- JWJane Wurwand
I think it's both. But for me, what has been successful is having the right questions asked. And you're excellent at this, so you know this. "How did that make you feel?" Or, "What were you thinking then?" Or, "What did you do immediately after that?" And not having that person tell me therefore what happened, but allowing me to think, "Oh, that's f- that's interesting. I, um, I had a bath." I- or whatever it might be, you know.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- JWJane Wurwand
And then slowly over the next, sometimes it's a few days, sometimes it's a few months, sometimes a couple of years, you start to realize, "I'm seeing a pattern here. There's a pattern here that I'm recognizing in myself." And then, for me, um, the tools, I get given tools to try, encouraged to try. "Try thinking about it this way." One thing when I would talk about my childhood, for example, and I was ashamed that I didn't have a father, and I've- and I felt ashamed when my mother started to develop Alzheimer's and- and was still socially active but clearly not herself. I've reframed that as how proud I am of my parents, and I am. And I'm proud of my mom's fortitude, and I'm proud of her determination. And I can talk with pride about my mother and father and not feel anything else, not feel any other emotion, other than, of course, love. And I'm really grateful for that. And, uh, I think that a lot of people l- not laugh at therapy but knock it, and I think it's because it's probably the single most terrifying thing you ever do, is really look deep at your choices and actions and behaviors. And it's much kinder to oneself to just keep it packed up. "We can keep that locked away. We don't need to discuss it. Don't look at that. Stop talking about that. You don't need to talk about that. That's over. That's in the past. Why do you keep talking about that? Don't. You don't need to. You're okay now." Or, "Best not to bother. Best not to. Leave well alone." I've heard all that my whole life. I mean, that- I grew up under that, not just from my family but from people. And I realize now, no, I think that's the only way you really find who you are. And maybe you can do it with best friends helping you. Maybe you can do it as a client of a skincare therapist who listens to everything you tell them. Um, and if you do, that's great, but however it works for you, find the way that helps you examine, 'cause a life unexamined is a life not lived.
- 1:05:42 – 1:12:24
Dealing with insomnia and anxiety
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, it's so interesting. You know, I sit here with lots of guests on this podcast, and many of them have taken the- taken the leap or made the decision at some point to go to therapy and to start kind of unpacking things that have happened to them in their life. And yet, I still- and they speak to the profound impact, positive impact it's had on their life. And yet, I still, as I sit here today, definitely feel a stigma myself about going.
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah, it's okay. You're 28?
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know, I'm- I'm 29, yeah.
- JWJane Wurwand
29.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JWJane Wurwand
Okay, so definitely people told me, many people I was in relationships told me in my 20s that, you know, "You should see someone," or, you know, and I- it w- uh, to me there was a stigma. There was nothing wrong with me. And I had good friends that I could talk to, and I had sisters I could tell. But none of them are completely as objective as we think they might be, and of course, it's not completely confidential.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JWJane Wurwand
And I'm now 63, I'm gonna be 64 next Saturday, and I think there's a point where we start to be ready. And if not, not. And you'll know when it is because your body will tell you. It won't be your mind. It won't be the stigma. It'll be something... I thought I h- had insomnia. I could've just probably started swallowing Ambien and thinking, "Oh well, this doesn't work either. I guess I'm just getting older, and I don't sleep." But you see, I wasn't able to function without sleeping. So my body literally took me to a place where I had to ask for help, and it took all those years. And so it's okay that there's a stigma. It's okay if you don't wanna do it, then don't do it. It's not- maybe it's not right for you now. Probably not very much to unpack even though you feel like there's a lot. And maybe n- you haven't seen the pattern repeat itself enough for you to think...... oh, it's not that person, or that person. This is actually my pattern. Um, and so, you know, I just think all of us should find our way however we can.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The symptoms, the symptoms culminated, um, well, your, the unpacked suitcase-
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... culminated in this insomnia later in your life.
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But now in hindsight, now that you've been, and you've spoken about it-
- JWJane Wurwand
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and you've unpacked these things and understood them better-
- JWJane Wurwand
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... can you identify other symptoms that were present at other phases in your life? Or was it just at that point when you got insomnia that you thought, "Well, I need to..."
- JWJane Wurwand
No.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Was there ever-
- JWJane Wurwand
I see it all the way-
- SBSteven Bartlett
There was no-
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah. I see, I see. I used to pride myself that I left a relationship before anyone left me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Ah. Right.
- JWJane Wurwand
And I think because of that fear of being the one left alone, I would self-sabotage relationships, whether they be friendships or whether they be personal, intimate relationships. And that might work very well until you have children. And that changes everything.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How?
- JWJane Wurwand
For me. Well, because you are forced... I, I tell a story in, in my book about my youngest child, Lucy. Before cell phones, we had established a routine of we all had breakfast together. Ray and I always ate breakfast together, even if it was a banana and a cup of tea stood in the kitchen. Um, and then as we had children, we would literally take 10 minutes to just sit round the table and have piece of toast, a bowl of cereal, whatever, uh, and just say, you know, "Have a great day." And it, you know, you didn't have to have any kind of profound conversation, just be present. And, um, with cell phones, I started to get, you know, emails and texts coming in from our markets in Europe that were already 4:00 in the afternoon and 8:00 in the morning. You know that. You're nodding now obviously.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JWJane Wurwand
Of course you do. So we had a 24-hour business. And so I started to get into the habit of just checking, just quickly just checking my emails and texts before I sat down to breakfast. And then I would walk Lucy to the bus stop for school. And then it got to where I would check them before I sat down for breakfast so that I knew what was on my plate, and then I'd walk her to school. And then it got to I would check them and then maybe I couldn't sit down for breakfast 'cause I had to just quickly answer this text. Do you know how that goes? It's a slippery slope. But I'm so busy and I'm successful and I'm working. I'm not fooling around. I'm not like, you know, reading the f- the comics or anything at the back of the paper. I'm working. I mean, I'm answering a stupid... crisis. There's a crisis in New Zealand. So I was on my phone and, and earlier I'd come down at like 6:30 and I was busy scrolling and I had to quickly answer. There was a catastrophe. It was a bit of a disaster happening in the UK and I had to answer. They needed an answer now 'cause it was the end of the day there. And Lucy came downstairs and she said, "Morning, Mom." And I said, and I didn't say, I just kind of like nodded and f- said, waved at her, like, "Hi, hi." She sat down and I was busy texting, texting, looking at something. And she said... and then from the chair, she got up from the table and she said, "Mom?" And I said, "Lucy, just one minute. Hang on." And I'm there. "Mom?" And I said, "Lucy, just one minute please," and carry on. And she said, "Mom, I just want..." And I said, "Lucy, please. Can you not see I'm busy? I've got a, a w- a whole thing happening in the UK and I have to get back to them." And I suddenly saw her eyes well up and I said, "Lucy, for goodness' sake, what is wrong?" And she said, "I wanted to give you a hug. You look so cross." (smacks lips) And it was... I was just stood there with this stupid bloody phone in my hand and my child in front of me, looking scared of me. And I just put down the phone and I got on my knees, I gave her a big hug and I said, "Lucy, I'm so sorry." And she started crying and then I started crying. I said, "Lucy, I'm so sorry. There is nothing more important than you and being here right now. I got distracted by business. It's not acceptable. I promise you it will never happen again." And I made a rule, it never did. Doesn't make me any more perfect a parent. My mom was very busy. She worked a lot. It's not about that. It's about knowing when the moment, it's not a long... a moment is important to pay attention. And that day at least, for that person, my child, when someone says, "Mom," I'm listening.
- 1:12:24 – 1:17:13
Allocating time to your true priorities
- JWJane Wurwand
- SBSteven Bartlett
How do you make sure that despite the crisis that might e- emerge any given moment and any day, and the- and also just the general gravitational pull that business has because of the allure, the allure that you can be more successful or make more money, how do you make sure that you are allocating your time against your true priorities like spending time with your children or like friendships or like your husband? Because we both know that we could just spend all of our time just doing business.
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So how do you...
- JWJane Wurwand
I really think about is this a true emergency or is it a rush of adrenaline because being able to solve this or do something about this is making me feel relevant, important, special, needed, bigger? And if it's for any of those reasons, it can wait. Your ego can wait. Or is this moment not as much about me but about the people I love or their need to show me love?... it's, it's not easy 'cause we're impatient, so we get caught up in that rush. And that's the thing that made us successful, that's the thing that drives us, that's the thing that without that, we wouldn't be us. And yet... (inhales deeply) Take a breath and just say, "Okay, wait a minute. C- does this have to be done right now while I've got this other person, my child, my husband, my partner, my mother, my wife, fill in the blank? Or could it wait four minutes? Could it wait an hour? Could it wait till tonight? Could it wait till next week? Does it actually have to be answered?" And trust me, if it is a TikTok or a social media thing, or anything like that, I will tell you the answer now-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JWJane Wurwand
... you know it-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JWJane Wurwand
... it does not have to be answered right away. I don't care if you've got two million followers, 22 million, 120. It doesn't have to be answered right away, unless literally it is an emergency. So just take a beat, take a minute and decide who needs this time the most. And sometimes it's not another person, it's you. Sometimes you need that minute the most. "I need this minute for me now." So take a break, and go and have that time for yourself, because you need that as well.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I heard one of the things you said as advice for entrepreneurs is to first and foremost make sure you are one. Make sure you are-
- JWJane Wurwand
Oh, yeah, make sure you are. Listen, not everyone's an entrepreneur. It sounds like the cool thing to be, right? The sexy thing is to be an entrepreneur. Some people are not cut out to be entrepreneurs. To be an entrepreneur, it's not just that you are a risk taker. I do- I hate hearing, it's just so tired, clichéd to say, you know, "Entrepreneurs are great risk takers." Entrepreneurs are- are not frightened of being scared. Let's say that. It's not that we're not scared. We are, but we'll deal with it. Courage, bravery is not the absence of fear, it's the presence of fear and still being able to function. So that, you have to have. You also have to be decisive. You have to be able to make a decision. You have to, um, have 70% and make a call. Not everyone has that, and they don't have to. You can also have a bit of that and be an intrapreneur, so you think entrepreneurially within someone else's company, which is fine. That's like playing in Vegas without using your own chips. Uh, but it's not the rush of using your own chips. You know, the entrepreneur, we're using our own chips, and it's y- once you get... It's easy to risk a few chips when you haven't got many on the table, but when the chips start stacking up and you wanna put everything on red 22, well, that's gonna be a huge gamble. So it's that kind of energy. It's very different. So you've got entrepreneurs, you have intrapreneurs. You also have, I think, two kinds of entrepreneurs. You've got entrepreneurs that are serial entrepreneurs. They flip it, then they build it and flip it, build it and flip it, and they c- they're very good at starting things but they can't follow, they don't want to follow through and grow it. And then you get a long, long player, like- like me and Raymond, where you build one company or two, and you grow it into an acquisition, and that defines your entrepreneurship. Both are great. Either are fine. You have to find what your path is, and you find that by finding what your purpose is and what's your fastest route to get there. And for us, it was entrepreneurship. But it's not for everybody, and neither should it be. And that's the, that's the magic. Find- find your path.
- 1:17:13 – 1:22:32
Acquisition of Dermalogica
- JWJane Wurwand
- SBSteven Bartlett
I know you weren't in- intent on selling Dermalogica, uh, es- especially in the early years, but you ultimately did.
- JWJane Wurwand
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Two questions.
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Question one is, the week after you sell Dermalogica, how did you feel about it? And the second thing is, why? Why did you choose to sell the company?
- JWJane Wurwand
Euphoric.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- JWJane Wurwand
Yes. And I'll tell you why. Because we knew exactly why we were selling. Um, I- I don't know it ever feels that way if you resell, you sell regretfully or because of a, some other reason. But the reason we sold was we felt strongly, we had taken Dermalogica to as far as we could run it. We were... Not that there were other people that were so much more clever than us out there. I did think that in the early days, that there must be someone who knows all these answers, but then you realize pretty quickly people don't. No one has the answers. No one knows your business better than you do. So it wasn't that so much. The... In fact, we thought of it as a relay race. Raymond and I ran the first leg, but you're running so fast and so hard at your fullest capacity, you can't possibly run the second, third, and fourth legs. So you have to pass that baton into a different kind of runner, who the second leg is a different kind of runner, as is the third leg. And guess what? The fourth leg-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JWJane Wurwand
... is the one that's gotta take it home. So, we felt very strongly about that. We had ru- we didn't need, we didn't want to go to an IPO-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JWJane Wurwand
... because we don't play well in the sandbox with other people. Could we have promoted someone from within and like stayed on as benevolent, you know, owners? No. I mean, we were aging out. We were definitely, you know, we realized our relevancy was going to be- was going to wane. What we knew and what we knew how to do, life was changing, the world was changing, it was time. We knew you've got to know when to leave the party.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JWJane Wurwand
I don't know about you, but I'm very good at knowing when to leave the party.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, (laughs) I am, yeah.
- JWJane Wurwand
And Raymond is-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JWJane Wurwand
... excellent at knowing-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JWJane Wurwand
... when I should leave the party too.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JWJane Wurwand
And so we said, "This is the time." The time is we gotta pass the baton, and it's gonna be an acquisition. And then in the book, Skin in the Game, I tell sort of the acquisition, because the likely suspects of who would acquire us, people in the cosmetic industry, in prestige, sure, they were at the table at the beginning, but at the end of the day, what guided us was a shared value system, and the shared value system was Unilever. And we're still with them, and s-We appointed our first CEO when we sold. He's still our CEO. He's terrific. The team stayed on board. Ray and I have stayed involved. The company continues going strength to strength. They're in double-digit growth. So we know we chose the right partner. So we felt euphoric about it. And now, I feel gratified that we did the right thing. Promise you, I don't miss it a bit, and I'm incredibly proud of what we did.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I guess that's when you know it's the right time.
- JWJane Wurwand
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You built wealth over many, many years from two different businesses. So this, even the acquisition of Unilever, I'm guessing wasn't a life-changing in terms of the fundamentals of your life moment?
- JWJane Wurwand
No.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right. So when you think about those two wonderful daughters you have, and leaving them that, that money-
- JWJane Wurwand
Oh, God. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know what question I'm gonna say?
Episode duration: 1:24:54
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