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Why monogamy fights how your limbic brain picks partners

How unconscious attraction starts deep inside the limbic brain; dopamine and oxytocin quiet your fear before you cross a crowded room to say hello.

Dr Anna MachinguestSteven Bartletthost
Jul 3, 20252h 20mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:15

    Intro

    1. AM

      We are not a monogamous species. It's a social construct. And I get attacked for saying things like this, but sexual monogamy, from an evolutionary point of view, is not a good idea. That's why we have a reasonably high rate of people who have extramarital affairs.

    2. SB

      So do you think we're all somewhat pretending to be monogamous? Who do you think struggles with it more, men or women? And you said that there's not a difference in wellbeing and satisfaction-

    3. AM

      No. Mm-mm.

    4. SB

      ... between polyamory or monogamy.

    5. AM

      Absolutely none.

    6. SB

      How do you know this?

    7. AM

      Because we've done studies on it, and I've committed the last two decades of my life to understand the neuroscience of love.

    8. NA

      Dr. Anna Machin is the Oxford-trained evolutionary anthropologist. Using science to decode attraction. Attachment styles. Love addiction. And now, the crucial roles of the father.

    9. AM

      So here's the thing, when we look for a partner, we don't know we're doing it, and it involves two very distinct areas of the brain. So there's the unconscious stage, that's where you take in loads of sensory information about them. So for example, if you're a woman, you can smell genetic compatibility.

    10. SB

      Wait, so men can't smell women, but women can smell men?

    11. AM

      Well, you can smell them, but it's not gonna give you any information about genetic compatibility. So your brain is gonna help you assess whether they're any good for you. If you get a good ping, certain chemicals at the very core of the brain take away the fear, it gives you the motivation. Now, human love is so complicated. So for example, the chemistry that underpins love is also involved in neurodiversity.

    12. SB

      So if I have ADHD or autism, how am I more likely to struggle in love?

    13. AM

      This is really, really important. First of all...

    14. SB

      Dr. Machin, why are you talking about fatherhood?

    15. AM

      The way our culture treats fathers is wrong. The myths we carry about fathers are wrong. Men have a very specific role in child development, and I wasn't expecting to find this when I first started, but it's fundamental for a child to thrive and survive, and be successful. So, what we're finding is-

    16. SB

      This has always blown my mind a little bit: 53% of you that listen to this show regularly haven't yet subscribed to the show. So could I ask you for a favor before we start? If you like the show and you like what we do here, and you wanna support us, the free, simple way that you can do just that is by hitting the subscribe button. And my commitment to you is, if you do that, then I'll do everything in my power, me and my team, to make sure that this show is better for you every single week. We'll listen to your feedback, we'll find the guests that you want me to speak to, and we'll continue to do what we do. Thank you so much.

  2. 2:15 – 7:13

    Why Love Is the Core of Being Human

    1. SB

      Dr. Anna Machin, what is the, the mission you've so far committed your life to? And, and I guess adding to that, why?

    2. AM

      I've committed the last two decades of my life to understanding human love, and understanding human close relationships. Because as an anthropologist, I understand that love sits at the center of what it is to be human. If you strip everything else away and you just... you've got your food, you've got your water, the next thing you need are your relationships, is your love. And we are so lucky as a species to experience love in quite a complex way, with many different types of people and beings. And we know that it's like the number one thing in terms of your, your health, mental, physical, your longevity, your happiness, your wellbeing. And I think we need to understand that, particularly in a world where we're starting to get a lot of input in terms of technology and AI, and the world is getting quicker, we need to go back to who we are really at our core, and what love really is. And, and I suppose that's what I've, I've given my life over to, is to really explain to people, "Who are you? Because your love is your identity, essentially."

    3. SB

      And you used the word anthropologist there, what is an anthropologist?

    4. AM

      (laughs) Okay, so an anthropologist is somebody who studies the human species. I'm an evolutionary anthropologist, which means I sit at the scientific end of it. You can sit at sort of the cultural end or the scientific end. And I study how evolution has shaped us, and also why things evolved. So for example, why did love evolve? Why did fatherhood evolve? Um, and I use lots and lots of different techniques, scanning and genetics and all these different things to be able to answer that question.

    5. SB

      I've got another book sat in front of me here, which is, I guess, somewhat linked to love.

    6. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    7. SB

      Which is about fathers.

    8. AM

      Yeah.

    9. SB

      So how did, uh, how did these two things come together? We've got a book here about love-

    10. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    11. SB

      ... and then we've got a book about fatherhood, and you're, you're very well known for talking on the subject of fatherhood.

    12. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    13. SB

      What, what is the link? How did the link come to be, and why? Why are you talking about fatherhood?

    14. AM

      We have the wrong idea about fathers. The way our culture deals with fathers, treats fathers, is wrong. The myths we carry about fathers are wrong. The influence they have on their children, and ultimately on our society, is fundamental. So the link came because I had a child. And like most couples who have a baby, you know, we talked about it, we were like, "We're gonna have, we're gonna start trying to have a baby," then we became pregnant, which was great. Did the pregnancy test together, went to the antenatal classes, went to the scans, all wonderful. Went in to have the baby, and it didn't turn out how it was supposed to. I was very, very ill, I lost a lot of blood. My daughter was poorly when she was born. And afterwards, I was offered loads of counseling, "Would you like a debrief? Would you like..." And I was like, "Well, n- to be absolutely honest, I'm okay, 'cause I passed out. I literally don't remember anything." But my husband witnessed it all, and he basically saw a car crash in slow motion with two people in it who he loved very deeply. Um, and I completely understand why it was a very stressful information, but nobody explained to him what was happening. And so they put, mopped me up, took my baby, took her to neonatal care, and left him in the room on his own. And I was breathing very shallowly, and he was scared, and the cleaner came in, and said, and was cleaning away, and he just said, um, to the cleaner, "Do you think she's dead?" 'Cause I was breathing so shallowly. And the cleaner went, "No, I don't think so, mate. I think they would've told you if she was dead." But after that, he couldn't talk about the birth. He couldn't imagine the birth, he couldn't deal with the emotions from the birth for a good two years afterwards. And he was really worried about having another kid. And this made me really angry actually, 'cause I was like, "Hold on, we went into this together," and he's literally been discarded like he doesn't matter. And to me, he's fundamentally important. And then as our daughter grew, I saw the amazing bond he built with her, how integral he was to her life. And so when I went back to university, uh, at Oxford to study and to do my work, I thought, "Well, I'm an anthropologist. Okay, let's look at what do we know about fathers in our society?" And there's literally nothing. There was a lot of work on absent fathers-... uh, and their impact is, is fundamental. We know that. And there was a lot of quite stereotypical work on young fathers, teenage fathers. Nothing on the majority of dads who, whether they co-reside or not, stick around. So I started with some really simple questions. Uh, what happens to a man when he becomes a father? Does he alter biologically, psychologically? How does he build his bond with his child? What's the nature of that bond? Does he have a role in child development separate to that to mum? Because when I started 20 years ago, the mantra was, dads didn't undergo any changes, uh, dads did not have a bond like mum to their children. It was not as intense and it certainly wasn't an attachment relationship, which we all know are really intense, important relationships. And as an evolutionary anthropologist, I was like, "That, that can't be right," because human fatherhood is rare. We are one of only 5% of mammals that have investing fathers, and we're the only ape. Now, for something that rare to evolve, it has to have had a purpose 'cause it led to amazing anatomical, social upheavals. So that's what I began to do 20 years ago. I started asking those questions, I recruited my first group of 15 first-time fathers when their partners were three months pregnant, and off we went.

  3. 7:13 – 9:10

    The Forgotten Role of Fathers

    1. AM

    2. SB

      So the question that's front of mind for me is, is what is it upstream that made us devalue the role of a, of a father?

    3. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    4. SB

      Wh- where did that come from? Because fathers are somewhat seen as surplus to requirement, I think. Where did that come from?

    5. AM

      It's cultural. It's entirely cultural because there are cultures in the world who don't think that. Our fathers are very, very integral. So in fact, one of the most hands-on fathers in the world is from the Aka tribe in the Congo. They keep physical contact with their children for 50% of the day. They carry them around, they co-sleep, not the mum, they co-sleep with the- with the child. They are the one that, that carries the fa- the child through the jungle when they're hunting and gathering. They are the one that sings to the child, reads stories to the child. They even, and this is the bit that always gets the headlines, they even will offer a nipple to soothe the child and tell the mother it's ready to breastfeed.

    6. SB

      (laughs)

    7. AM

      So it's cultural. We have this idea that... And it's partly, it partly came very much from the Victorian period where fathers were seen to be disciplinarians and, and providing the money. And that was the Victorian idea of being a father. It's also to do with our, with our, with our politics and society for a long time. So women weren't able to go out to work, and that's where we've remained till very, very recently. But there's no biology behind that. That's entirely cultural. And I think also it's very much the case, yes, women today, we have contraception so we can control our, our production of children, we can earn our own money, we can protect ourselves, we can look after ourselves. So actually in one sense you think, "Well, yeah, what's the dad for? Because I can do all those things which historically the father had to do when women's positions were different." But... And we've ki- sort of carried on with that, and there's become this mantra of actually then we just, we just don't need them. I mean, I've even been to lectures where they've decided that the Y chromosome is going to become obsolete and that we really won't need dads at all, even to conceive children at some point. And which to me sounds ludicrous, and that's where it's come from. I mean, we've embedded that and we embedded it in our media, so dads were always bumbling or useless or absent. You know, Daddy Pig is the ultimate bumbling, useless father, and we laughed at it. We think

  4. 9:10 – 14:44

    Individualism and the Current State of Love

    1. AM

      it's funny.

    2. SB

      Maybe the way that these, these two subjects initially do sort of dovetail-

    3. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    4. SB

      ... into each other is when we think about the state of love-

    5. AM

      Yes.

    6. SB

      ... and the role of men and women. You touched a bit on it there when you talked about how women are earning more and more, so men are becoming a little bit more apparently obsolete in what they can offer to a monogamous relationship. There were some stats that I was looking at before you arrived, and I'll read them out to you. Uh, the stats say that only 38% of single w- women are actively looking to date versus 61% of single men, um, which is a huge gap. Morgan Stanley projects that 45% of women aged 25 to 44 will be single by 2030. Um, in England and Wales, a record almost 40% of adults have never married. For women aged 30 to 34, the figure is now almost 60%, which is the lowest ever. Women initiate roughly 70% of divorces, showing a greater willingness to exit marriages that are unsatisfying than men. And obviously, bo- I think one of the points you were sort of touching on there is that women are now much more educated, um, as it relates to things like college degrees compared to men. There's this bigger picture around relationships and love that kind of sits in the background of this, and women's rise in independence, which I think we can all agree is, is always going to be a positive thing. But downstream from that is a clear issue in how we form monogamous-

    7. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    8. SB

      ... heterosexual relationships these days. And also, like, you know, part of the reason, one of many reasons I wanted to speak to you is I was, I was thinking about my friendship group and the women that I know, and more... (laughs) I spoke to a w- a friend of mine a couple of, couple of weeks ago, and I, I said to her, like, "What, what, like, what are your goals?" And she said, "Oh, I currently have about 150 plants and I want to get to about 250 plants." I go, I, I, I said to her, "Do you wanna, do you wanna get married? Do you wanna have kids?" She went, "No, no interest in that."

    9. AM

      Yeah.

    10. SB

      "What I want is I want to get to the point where I have financial freedom so I can buy a house and I want to get over 200 plants."

    11. AM

      Yep.

    12. SB

      And this is, it sounds kind of funny, but it's an increasingly familiar story that I'm hearing, which is once upon a time, the goal would have been get married, you know, have kids, build a life together. Now it's more i- individualistic.

    13. AM

      Yeah.

    14. SB

      What's your thoughts here? What is the state of love at the moment?

    15. AM

      Well, it's definitely more individualistic. We've become a more individualistic society. So we are looking more at, yes, what do I want rather than what, what in a way contributes to community, which is what collectivist societies do. Women in the past had to get married. You couldn't have children out of wedlock. That was definitely not acceptable. You had to get married because, uh, that's where your financial security was. And that's what you did. Quite often those marriages weren't based on love.

    16. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    17. AM

      They were based on very pragmatic decisions about this is where I need to be. So women have been freed from that. They don't have to do that anymore. The other thing to say is they've realized that romantic love isn't the only love in the box. What we call their key survival critical relationship, in many cases, so the relationship that's going to support them emotionally, physically, practically, all those sorts of things, are their female friends.

    18. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    19. AM

      ... their chosen families, and that's who they're turning to, and that's why we're seeing less and less women saying that romantic love is a priority or parental love is a priority. And in one sense, that's great, because actually it's showing that all these loves are equal and I can, I can love in that way, and I think that's wonderful in one sense. But yes, it does mean that we're turning away from that idea of long-term cohabiting companionship. And so when people say to me, for example, "Is marriage going to die? Are we going to end?" No, I don't think it is. We will always, for example, have a ritualistic marking of a romantic relationship, whatever sex you are and whatever sexuality you are. I think that will always exist. But we're going through a bit of a sea change. We're also seeing it in older women, post-menopausal women, because it's only really very recently that we've got to a point where we have a long post-menopausal lifespan as women. Usually, you know, a hundred years ago, if you got to 50, which is the age for menopause, the standard age, you were lucky if you were still alive. But now that period of time could be 20, 30, 40, even 50 years. So I think women post 50, and they, there's been a massive upsi- tick in post 50 divorces instigated by women, is they look at their partner and they think, "You were a great dad. I selected you when, when that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to have children, I wanted to build a family, but I look at you now and I think, but is this the person I want to do the next phase of my life with?" Because that's a very different set of needs. And so we're seeing women actually looking, going, "No, do you know what? I'm gonna start afresh. I'm gonna do something different." And it might be they look for a different relationship or they might be, yeah, they decide, "I'm not gonna have another romantic relationship."

    20. NA

      What is the different set of needs, just outta curiosity? I wanna make sure that my partner doesn't dump me when she hits 50.

    21. AM

      Okay.

    22. NA

      (laughs)

    23. AM

      The difference is, so when we, when we are younger and we look for a partner for a romantic relationship, we don't know we're doing it. There are two stages of attraction in romantic love. There's the unconscious stage, which we share with all the mammals, and then there's the, the conscious stage, which is very different. That involves your neocortex, which looking at this is this big walnut bit on the outside. Human love is special because it involves two very distinct areas of the brain. So this is the limbic area of your brain, this bit in the center here. That's your unconscious brain. That's where your emotions sit, where nurturing behaviors sit, where attachment behavior's bit, it's very evolutionarily ancient. It's been around for millions and millions of years. And this is where initially attraction starts. And what you do is you lock eyes with someone across a crowded room and you take in loads of sensory information about them. So you take in visual information. What do they look like? What does their body shape tell me about their value? How are they moving? Do they look healthy? If you're a woman, you will give them a good sniff, um, and you can smell genetic compatibility.

  5. 14:44 – 20:22

    Women Find Their Right Partner by Smelling Them

    1. AM

    2. NA

      Wait, so men can, can't smell women, but women can smell men?

    3. AM

      Well, you can smell them, but it's not gonna give you any information about genetic compatibility. So what, what happens is a woman... the major histocompatibility complex-

    4. NA

      What's that?

    5. AM

      ... it underpins your immune system.

    6. NA

      Okay.

    7. AM

      It's a complex set of genes. And bizarrely, that set of genes also underpins your smell, your ability to smell, your olfactory system, okay?

    8. NA

      Mm-hmm.

    9. AM

      And in women, they can smell how genetically close a male's MHC is, major hos- histocompatibility complex, how close it is to theirs, because you don't want too close, 'cause you don't wanna inbreed. Also, you want it distant because then your child gets a really lovely diverse immune system, 'cause they've got a diverse set of genes underpinning it. So you smell them. It's not a conscious thing. So people say to me, "Oh, but you know, what about aftershave? What about perfumes?" Well, it's not conscious. You do not know you're doing it. And one of the things that will be fed into your limbic area is the result of that little test if you're a woman, what do, what do they smell like?

    10. NA

      How do they know this? Have they tested this?

    11. AM

      Okay. We've tested this in several ways. There was the very famous T-shirt test, which telly people love, um, where you make a load of men put on a very plain T-shirt. They're not allowed to wash, they're not allowed to use deodorant, not allowed to do anything. Wear it for 24 hours, then we put it in some Ziploc bags, and we then s- get some poor unsuspecting woman to sniff them all. And the idea is that the one she finds most attractive to sniff is the one which is genetically furthest away from her. And it does work. It works. When you genotype her, you can see that they are different. We don't have to do that anymore. We have very sophisticated genotyping technology now. If you really wanted to, there's a company in Switzerland that will do it for you. So you can spit on something, send it off with your partner, and they will tell you how close your major histocompatibility complexes are.

    12. NA

      I'm just wondering why men didn't evolve to be able to do that.

    13. AM

      We think it's probably because the cost to a woman of getting it wrong, um, having a baby who is basically too genetically close is much greater than it is for a man, because she is basically taking herself out of that opportunity to ha- to reproduce for nine months plus the bit after to look after that child.

    14. NA

      Okay.

    15. AM

      And so that's a really long period of time. Whereas a man, it's not that costly.

    16. NA

      Okay.

    17. AM

      So you've taken in all that information from the sensors, it's all whirring around in here, and what your brain is actually doing is your brain has got a very complicated algorithm which is working out the biological market value of the person in front of you. Now, the biological market value is how likely that person is to be reproductively successful, because from an evolutionary point of view, that's the whole point of your existence. Whether you want kids or not, guys, that's the point, is you have to reproduce, have some lovely healthy kids, raise them to maturity so they can reproduce, because we just want your genes from an evolutionary standpoint. We're not interested in you as a personality. And so you want somebody who's got the highest likelihood of being good at that. And we can tell that from lots of things to do with how someone looks, the pitch of their voice, how they smell. What men actually do is they look at the waist-hip ratio. You don't know you're doing it, but eye tracking experiments show that men do it. Uh, they don't know that it's completely unconscious. Wonderful study's been done with people walking down the street with eye, w- not mentioning to them what we're looking for. They're wearing eye tracking, uh, technology, and what they do is the first thing they glance at, even if they don't know it, is the waist-hip ratio. Before, for example, they will look at the face. And what they're calculating is what that ratio is, because we know cross-culturally, the most attractive ratio is a 0.7, and that is actually a classic hourglass. The reason-

    18. NA

      Cross-culturally?

    19. AM

      Cross-culturally. If we go, uh, and it's nothing to do with weight, because some cultures like bigger weights than other cultures.

    20. NA

      Yeah.

    21. AM

      Nothing to do with weight. It's to do with the ratio.

    22. NA

      Ah.

    23. AM

      And so if we were show, if we show that ratio to different cultures, they will go, "It's that one."And the reason for that is there is a direct link between that ratio and, for example, fertility. So if a woman has that, it shows she's got high circulating estrogen, it shows she's not near menopause. Because when we go to menopause, we- we get more of a male figure. It goes towards one, the ratio, because of the drop in estrogen and- and the buildup in testosterone. So we know that. There's a link between 0.7 and a range of illnesses, uh, chronic illnesses, such as diabetes, heart disease, certain forms of cancer. So actually, what you're assessing there is how healthy... how fertile is this woman? So if I take myself off the market for a period of time, am I going to end up with some kids? And is she healthy to raise them?

    24. SB

      In those eye-tracking studies, what do women look at?

    25. AM

      Women look at slightly different things. And for women, what's really interesting is it's not as visual. So women look at the sh- at the shoulder-waist ratio. So that's... Yes, there we go. And what you're looking for, as a woman, is a triangle. So nice broad shoulders, narrow waist.

    26. SB

      Okay.

    27. AM

      Okay.

    28. SB

      Okay.

    29. AM

      Now, the ideal there is 1.6. What I will say, before men rush off and measure their wa- is, really only Olympic athletes have 1.6.

    30. SB

      1.6 meaning the top half should be 1.6 bigger than the-

  6. 20:22 – 21:51

    Testosterone Is Linked to Success in Men

    1. SB

      Testosterone is linked to success in men?

    2. AM

      Yes. Yes, because it makes you very competitive.

    3. SB

      Okay.

    4. AM

      So we get all these things, you take all that in, you take in that visual information, you do your little algorithm in your brain, which obviously you don't know is happening. If you get a good ping, as in, yes, this person has a good biological market value, I like that, what happens is in the very core of the brain, in the middle... So this is- this is the very core of the brain here. There's a- a structure in there called the nucleus accumbens.

    5. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    6. AM

      It's full of dopamine and oxytocin receptors. That fires off, goes completely mad, if we look at it on the screen, and dopamine and oxytocin flood that system. And the reason why they are important is, in a way, they are the hormones of attraction. So oxytocin lowers your inhibitions to starting new relationships, okay? So it takes away the fear. And the way it does that is it quietens your amygdala. So the amygdala is a tiny little structure down here at the bottom, and it- it's where fear sits. And that's the thing that, if you're not feeling confident, has that monologue in the back of your head going, "Okay, you're just- you're just not very good at this. You're going to walk across the bar, you're going to say hello, and they're gonna humiliate you." So it quietens that area. We see less activity there. So you've got more confidence. Also, oxytocin makes you feel quite chilled. It's quite nice. And then dopamine is also released, because dopamine is your hormone of motivation. And if you just had oxytocin, you might be so chilled, you sat on the bar stool and you did not move, 'cause you're having a lovely time.

    7. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    8. AM

      So dopamine is there to go, "No, you actually have to go across the bar and you have to say hello." And so they work really, really well together. And they also work together to make your brain more plastic.

    9. SB

      So I have

  7. 21:51 – 26:23

    How to Increase Your Attractiveness (Backed by Science)

    1. SB

      to ask you then, if I'm a single person-

    2. AM

      Yes.

    3. SB

      ... and with what you've just told me about the brain, I'm trying to increase the probability that someone will be attracted to me-

    4. AM

      Mm.

    5. SB

      ... and form a relationship to me-

    6. AM

      Mm.

    7. SB

      ... what kind of behavior do I need to be embodying to... 'Cause I wanna- I wanna reduce the fear part of their brain so that they're- they're more comfortable, and I want that oxy- oxytocin and dopamine to be firing.

    8. AM

      Oxytocin. Yes, absolutely. So quite often people say to me, "How can I hack my first date?" So the way you can hack your first date is you can do an activity which releases beta endorphin and dopamine and oxytocin. The best one I have found, which I- I appreciate is a niche interest, is some form of dancing in couples. Ballroom dancing, you know, tango, whatever it is. Because first of all, you're touching, so you get released oxytocin and beta endorphin. They're both released by touch. You're moving around. As any gym bunny knows, exercise produces beta endorphin. Hopefully you're not that great at this, so you're gonna laugh a lot, because you're actually a little bit rubbish. Okay. So you're releasing lots and lots of lovely oxytocin, dopamine, and beta endorphin doing that. Then afterwards, you need to go and have a curry.

    9. SB

      (laughs)

    10. AM

      Okay? Because beta endorphin evolved initially as your body's painkiller. That's the role it has. Over time, it's been co-opted into our social, uh, sphere. But we know you have pain receptors in your gut. So if you have a curry, your gut gets a little bit irritated because it's a little bit spicy, so you don't have a korma, and it produces beta endorphin. And- and we know that that will also help you- help you feel more euphoric, help you feel more relaxed, and help that person be more attracted to you, because they will also get a hit of it. So that- that's your ideal date. I appreciate it's very niche, and not everyone will want to do that, but there are ways.

    11. SB

      And then I'm gonna take her to the comedy store.

    12. AM

      Yeah. And have a really good belly laugh. A proper laugh produces beta endorphin.

    13. SB

      Okay.

    14. AM

      Yeah.

    15. SB

      Had we finished with the-

    16. AM

      Well, so what you're doing, your biological market value comes out, as I say, you hit dopamine, oxytocin, your amygdala quietens, you feel much more confident, you feel much more chilled. Dopamine motivates you to walk across the bar, and off you go and you strike up conversation. And that is the way attraction works in all mammals. It's completely unconscious. So you don't know any of this is happening. What's different in humans is very quickly after that, particularly once they've opened their mouth, it all starts kicking off in the outer area of the brain, so your neocortex. So the major social area of the brain is here, this is your prefrontal cortex.

    17. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    18. AM

      And your prefrontal cortex is where all those social, uh, abilities sit, you know, so, um, trust, uh, reciprocity, ability to maintain, ability to abstract about your relationship, or ability to daydream about what it's going to be. And that's where all that sits. So we start seeing firing off here. And what's really inter- what's really important for human love is there- is a connection between this area of the brain, which is known as the striatum-... which is unconscious, and this area of the brain, the prefrontal cortex. So your unconscious brain and your conscious brain can work together in attraction. And also this area of the brain at the back, which is known as the mentalizing-empathizing area of the brain. So we need to have empathy in relationships, it's the basis of love, so understanding someone's emotional state and being able to respond to it appropriately.

    19. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    20. AM

      And also mentalizing. So mentalizing is mind reading. Th- what's their intention? What are they going to do next? You need it for conversation. You also need it to spot a cheat. B- because you need to check someone's intention, so the mentalizing area of the brain is important. The sad bit, and I'll explain this in a minute, is- is unfortunately that bit shuts down a little bit, which isn't very helpful, but we'll talk about that. So then as soon as they open their mouth, you start to contemplate them consciously, and what you contemplate consciously in terms of your attraction can actually override the- the unconscious bit. So you might have had this amazing feeling of, you know, lust and s- chemistry as you walk across the bar thinking, "Wow, this person's amazing."

    21. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    22. AM

      "I'm feeling astonishing." They open their mouth and they say something to you which is just, you know, unconscionable, or awful, or they've got no sense of humor, or they're really unkind, or whatever it might be, and suddenly that bit will step in and go, "Uh-uh, nope. This person is not for me." And that can override the biology. But that's why what we say ... And I always say the brain is the sexiest organ in the body, 'cause ultimately it's what you express with your brain that is going to really determine whether or not this love is gonna go anywhere. And that's what you say, because ultimately as humans the thing that makes us the most successful species on the planet is our brain. Not your shoulder-waist ratio, not your waist-hip ratio, it's actually your brain because you want your kid to have the most creative, flexible, funny, intelligent, emotionally intelligent brain they can have.

  8. 26:23 – 27:36

    Never Say This on a Date

    1. AM

      And that's what you're looking for in a partner in the long term.

    2. SB

      So based on what you know about attraction and falling in love and all those things-

    3. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    4. SB

      ... what is, like, the worst thing one could say i- in terms of the themes, the types of things someone could say that would just completely put you off?

    5. AM

      So I think probably the absolutely worst thing you can say, and this comes from a lot of data saying what's the most important, is to say something unkind. So we know regardless of everything else, the one thing that people want in a long-term relationship is somebody kind. So something critical of somebody else in the room, particularly something criti- ... I mean, you don't know what that person's interests are, but something critical about something that's very important to them. Don't be unkind.

    6. SB

      The waiter/waitress.

    7. AM

      Yeah, exact- ... That's why how people treat ... I mean, personally I find people who treat waiters enraging, you know, badly enraging, um, that's why, 'cause it's a real representation of who you are at your core. Or they express a value which goes ag- completely against a value that you have.

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. AM

      Because we know in terms of long c- long-term compatibility, it's things to do with personality, it's things to do with long-term values or beliefs-

    10. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. AM

      ... that are the most important things. So let's say somebody said something horrendously homophobic or something like that, or something racist, that's an immediate, "Right, no, this person is not

  9. 27:36 – 29:58

    Are “Icks” Red Flags We Should Listen To?

    1. AM

      for me."

    2. SB

      What about icks?

    3. AM

      (laughs)

    4. SB

      Because icks seem to have emerged as like a ... It's so ... It's ... Ah, I've got a friend of mine who's ... Uh, I don't know.

    5. AM

      (laughs)

    6. SB

      She's never been in a relationship. She's, um, she's just o- 37 years old, 38 years old, and I remember one day she was like, "Steve, what am I doing wrong?" And I'm not ... Listen, I was never really a dater, so I have no right to-

    7. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    8. SB

      ... to tell someone what they're doing right or wrong, but she showed me her dating profile. And in her dating profile she said to me, "I said no to this guy, and I looked at this guy and I went, 'Fucking hell, he's like a, he's like a stud.'"

    9. AM

      (laughs)

    10. SB

      "He's, uh, beautifully good-looking," was really, really kind in the messages he'd sent.

    11. AM

      Yeah.

    12. SB

      She goes, "But if you look in the background of his photo, there's boxes on top of his wardrobe."

    13. AM

      O- okay.

    14. SB

      And she was like, "So I said no."

    15. AM

      Right.

    16. SB

      Now, I ... From an evolutionary perspective you can go, okay, maybe he's living at his mum's house, maybe he's just moved in, maybe w-

    17. AM

      Yeah.

    18. SB

      ... whatever. Maybe he's not a settled person. But really, there has become a culture of women and men excluding each other based on extremely surface level things. Now, I'm like does that ... is that the prefrontal cortex doing its job, or is that something else?

    19. AM

      It is the prefrontal cortex doing its job. I would say it's not doing its job terribly well. The ick is a really recent thing that was generated by social media, and this idea of narrowing in closer, and closer, and closer on what people like to call red flags. And you don't get a lot of information from online dating because you don't get a lot of sensory information to help you make a decision, so people become more and more obsessive. "What's in the image? What's in the image? What can I get about this person?" And they start to become obsessed with tiny, tiny things. What ultimately people find attractive is very, very complicated. It's ... it ... there are so many different things that feed into attraction. Whether or not somebody has boxes on top of their wardrobe is very unlikely to be even vaguely important in terms of compatibility. I don't think they should be called dating apps; I think they should be called introduction apps, and that's actually what the great Helen Fisher said. She said, "They're introduction apps. They broaden your pool. They make more people available to you." That's it. You're not having a date on that app. You're not learning about that person on that app. You're literally seeing them for the first time and as soon as you can get in the room with them and you can let your brain do what it's really good at, half a million years of evolution, that's what you should do, because they handicap your brain. They give you very little information to go into that algorithm.

    20. SB

      You said something really interesting there which kind of dovetails into what I was saying about my friend who's never dated but is struggling in dating. I- I know a growing number of people that are going on, like, 100 dates a year and having no luck, and just, like, mathematically I

  10. 29:58 – 33:45

    We’ve Got Too Many Dating Options

    1. SB

      go, "Surely-"

    2. AM

      Hmm. Mm-hmm.

    3. SB

      "... there must've been someone suitable in that pool of 100 people a year that you've met."

    4. AM

      Yeah.

    5. SB

      What is going on here?

    6. AM

      It's two things, I think. First of all, as I said, it's the low cost of dating apps. So in the old days when I was dating, going on a date was a real investment of time and energy.

    7. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    8. AM

      So you would probably meet someone at work, you'd meet someone at a bar, you'd meet someone through a friend which was a real blind date, and you'd, you know, spend your time thinking, "What am I gonna wear? And I've got to go somewhere with this person and spend some time with this person, probably some financial investment as well. Get myself all ready, spend an evening with them." And that was how you were gonna meet somebody. So you invested time, and you weren't gonna do that unless you were serious-

    9. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    10. AM

      ... to be honest, because otherwise I'll, I'll stay at home, I'll do something else, I'll go to the pub with my friends. Whereas now, because we can do it ... we can literally go on a dating app-... anywhere, on the tube, while we're cooking dinner, while we're watching Netflix, any time you want. It's low-cost, low-investment.

    11. SB

      I read a study that showed... It was in a different context, but it essentially showed that the amount you invest in something correlates to the amount that you appreciate the thing.

    12. AM

      Absolutely.

    13. SB

      They did this study where they let people into a boring, um, forum without having to pass any entry test, and then they asked them how much they appreciated the boring forum, and people said, "It's, it's, uh, it's boring."

    14. AM

      Yes.

    15. SB

      And then they got another group of people, they made them go through this sort of rigorous test to get into this boring forum, and then they asked them, "How much do you appreciate the forum?" They said, "It's great."

    16. AM

      Yeah.

    17. SB

      I'm obviously paraphrasing there, but it just showed this link between the amount you invest in a process is the more you, you appreciate it. And I think back to being, only 14 years old, going on my first date, and the, the whole process of getting ready to go to the cinema, and th- thinking about my outfit for three days-

    18. AM

      Yeah.

    19. SB

      ... and then going there and being nervous. And I didn't have much money, so this was, like, a big thing, and then how much... You know, I almost felt like I fell in love- (laughs)

    20. AM

      (laughs) Yes.

    21. SB

      ... with the person, really irrespective... Just because of the effort I'd put in, I felt, feel like I fell in love with them, so.

    22. AM

      So yeah. So that's, so, so it's partly the low-cost thing, it's partly because all those people that... If you were doing it in person, your brain would filter out qu- Let's say there were 100 people in the room. Your brain would quite f- quickly filter out most of them-

    23. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    24. AM

      ... as no, no, no, no, no, no, and maybe one or two might... Because you can't filter in that way on an app, you kinda take the punt on all these dates, 'cause you're like, "Otherwise, how else am I gonna actually meet this person?" You can't just have a casual chat by the coffee machine at work, or, you know, meet them through some friends in the pub, where you would do that assessment without really making that much effort. Whereas, because on a dating app the only way you can meet that person is to actually go on a date with them and do all that, you will end up going on 100 to do that filtering process. So it's partly that as well. And the last thing is the paradox of choice.

    25. SB

      Yeah.

    26. AM

      So we are really, really bad at making choices when there's a lot of options. And the paradox of choice is very powerful in relation to dating apps. Because literally, particularly if you're good-looking and you get a lot of matches, there's like a smorgasbord of people out there that you can carry on flipping or you can make a choice. And it's... Our brains are not set up for that. You know, 100 years ago when we were trying to find a partner, you would maybe have the people in your village who you grew up with to choose from. If you had a horse, you could maybe have the people in the next village or even a town. Wow!

    27. SB

      (laughs)

    28. AM

      And that was who you chose from. And it was a very small pool. Now you can go anywhere in the world, turn on your dating app, and possibly have, you know, hundreds of people to meet. And your brain can't do that.

    29. SB

      I mean, we can all think about as well in the context of restaurants. If you go to Thailand-

    30. AM

      Yeah.

  11. 33:45 – 40:07

    Monogamy and Polyamory

    1. AM

    2. SB

      Monogamy and polyamory.

    3. AM

      Yes.

    4. SB

      So can you define both of those words?

    5. AM

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      And, um, the thing that I found really striking is, I think I heard you say that satisfaction in either dynamic there-

    7. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    8. SB

      ... polyamory or monogamy, is roughly the same?

    9. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    10. SB

      'Cause I thought people in monogamous relationships were supposed to be way more happy than people that are in pol- polyamorous relationships.

    11. AM

      No. Not at all. So monogamy is a relationship state where there are two people who are... We, okay, we have to define two sorts of monogamy. There's sexual monogamy, and that is you are exclusive to that other person sexually, you have sex with nobody else. And there is social monogamy, and that is you live with that person exclusively. So within the UK, most people, let's say, if they have children, are socially monogamous, they live in a household with their children with two people in it. Whereas sexual monogamy, you can be socially monogamous and not sexually monogamous. So they're two different things. But monogamy, if we talk about it in sort of lay terms is, two people who are exclusive to each other, in terms of love, in terms of sex, and in terms of possibly living together. Monogamy itself is a social construct, mostly. We are not a monogamous species. There are in fact very few monogamous species in the world. Maybe, I think I read a book the other day that said something like par- 0.002% of the animals on this planet are monogamous. Because what you will see in the wild and what you see mostly with humans is social monogamy. They live together. But, uh, we know that the infidelity rate, it sits to, generally, at around 50%. So 50% of those households are not sexually monogamous. Um, and in fact, from an evolutionary point of view, being sexually monogamous is a really quite bad idea. Because, um, you are limiting yourself to a, a very narrow gene pool. And that's why there are very few creatures in the world that are truly sexually monogamous. I, when I was doing my master's, my professor studied gibbons. Gibbons at the time were known to be the monogamous ape. And he studied, he did a really longitudinal study, and he was the first to realize that no they weren't. They were all sneaking off and doing it behind a rock with somebody else. But they were living together. But the female was going to find some better genes somewhere else. This guy, brilliant parent, not great genes. "I'm gonna go behind a rock and mate with this really good-looking gibbon over here, 'cause I'm gonna get some good genes, and then he's gonna raise the kid." And the o- and the guy is like, "Well, you know, I'm obviously going to have offspring here, but actually, you know, mating with another female is not particularly costly to me, so I'll just go and do that over there, and let's hope she can raise them on her own, or maybe her partner will raise them for me." So there are very few. So we have monogamy in, in, mainly in the West, um, because it's a socially prescribed form of organization. And it was imposed because it is a form of control. It mainly sits in terms of rules, particularly in religion, but also there are many legal rules. For example, in, in Britain, you can't be, you can't have two marriages, you can't be a bigamist. And it's about making everybody controlled. 'Cause if we-If we all just gave in constantly to precisely what our drives were saying, there'd be kind of chaos. And those in power wouldn't be able to s- predict what anybody is going to do, because actually I'm just gonna go... I feel, you know, sexually attracted to whoever that is over there. I'm gonna go and mate with them, but then I'm gonna come back and live here, but then I've got a kid over there, and it's all really, really confusing. So over time, when civilization first arose, the more complex we got... And as we started to live together in cities, those in control were like, "Okay, I really need to be able to predict what these lesser beings are gonna do, so I'm gonna impose monogamy." You can only live with one person and basically have sex with one person. Nobody actually ever only had sex with one person, but we're gonna look like we do, and those are the rules, and that's why we have legitimate, legitimacy rules about children, and inheritance, and all that kind of thing, because it maintains control. So monogamy is, yeah, simply a social str- construct. It's not something that we've biologically evolved to do, and we know that part... You know, there are many countries in the world where monogamy isn't what is prescribed.

    12. SB

      How are those cultures getting on, the ones that aren't monogamous?

    13. AM

      Fine.

    14. SB

      What, what cultures are those?

    15. AM

      So you tend to get... So, so for example, in certain religions, so in certain forms of Islam, for example, men can have many wives. There are certain, um, tribes which exist within sort of South America and in certain areas of Africa where you can have many wives. For example, there are some, um, groups in Nepal, in the Himalayas, where we have what's known as polyandry, so one woman has many husbands. Um, usually the reason why these different, um, groupings evolve, like monogamy, is it's something to do with economics, generally. So for example, in Nepal, in these areas, because they still have, um, male inheritance of land, if... Let's say we've got a family farm, and there's five brothers. If all of those five brothers split the inheritance, then that farm would become uneconomic. You wouldn't be able to farm it and make money. So, over time, what's evolved is one woman will marry all the brothers, so that when they in- inherit the farm, they will all get... It will go, carry on passing down, essentially.

    16. SB

      So if it goes against our evolutionary design to be in monogamous relationships-

    17. AM

      Yes.

    18. SB

      ... doesn't that mean that there's a lot of people who are struggling against their...

    19. AM

      Yeah. Absolutely, and that's why we have a, a reasonably high rate of people who have ex- extramarital affairs. It's also why people who are polyamorous, or indeed have open relationships, say actually it's the more truthful way of being human, because all they're doing is following their drives. And they actually believe that it's more moral, because if you put forward a monogamous front and you have an affair, you are lying to people. You are keeping a secret from people you profess to love. Whereas if you're polyamorous or you're in an open relationship, you're actually openly saying, "This is my drive. This is the reality, and I'm being truthful with everybody about it, so you can enter a relationship with me, or not, on the basis of truth." And that's what a lot of polyamorous people particularly will argue, is that they're really representing what is, for most people, an ancestral state. Polyamory is difficult because, unlike open relationships... Open relationships, such as, such as swinging or, or being open, we call them consensual non-monogamy, that's just based on sex, so you're not spreading your love relationship, that emotional investment, that emotional intimacy amongst more than one person. Polyamory is, uh, being open and having several sexual partners and also having several emotionally intimate relationships at the same time. And I think people struggle more with that because of the issues of, of jealousy, um, and the fact that that goes quite strongly against even our social ideas about monogamy,

  12. 40:07 – 41:49

    Why People in Polyamorous Relationships Hide It

    1. AM

      where we all sort of live in pairs.

    2. SB

      I've got a, a friend of mine that's, uh, secretly in an open polyamorous relationship-

    3. AM

      Mm.

    4. SB

      ... basically where there's two couples and they are together.

    5. AM

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      So there's four of them, basically-

    7. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    8. SB

      ... but they, they don't talk about it publicly because of the judgment.

    9. AM

      Yeah.

    10. SB

      Um, I think maybe part of the issue is that judgment, that-

    11. AM

      Yeah.

    12. SB

      ... this, yeah.

    13. AM

      For the polyamorous people I, I've interviewed, particularly for my book, that was the major thing, is that they were very happy in the relationship. The relationships were going really, really well, but what was difficult was being open about it, particularly with, for example, I'm talking to one woman who was like, like older members of the family. So she was going to a family wedding. She was... And when she went to these occasions with this family, she could only ever take one of her partners. You know, it always had to be the same partner, because they had no idea the other partner existed-

    14. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    15. AM

      ... because that would be very difficult for them to take. Also, we know from studies that have been done looking at people's attitudes to polyamorous people, it... They are seen as immoral. They are seen as, um, unloving. They're seen as cold, because they have this ability to love lots of men, so they can't truly love anybody because they're splitting their heart between all these different people. Polyamorous people look at it the other way, as I've said. They actually think it's very moral, because they're being truthful. Polyamorous relationships tend to be based on very open communication. That's one of the rules, is that, is everybody still happy? Is everybody still happy with where the boundaries are? Has anybody upset anybody else? So it's, it's very, very open. And they also believe that... And in some ways there's support from this. You know, we are able to, to love many friends at once. We're able to love many children at once. They say actually they don't split their h- their heart. It's not a zero-sum game that you get 50% and you get 50%. Actually, that each time they take somebody into their lives, their heart

  13. 41:49 – 43:09

    Are We All Pretending to Be Monogamous?

    1. AM

      just gets bigger.

    2. SB

      Do you think we're all somewhat pretending to be monogamous?

    3. AM

      I think some people are happier with monogamy. We know that partly from a genetic point of view. Um, so there are some people, no, I don't think struggle with it. But I do think a reasonably significant number of people probably do.

    4. SB

      Who do you think struggles with it more, men or women?

    5. AM

      It really depends. Do you know something? There... One of the major misnomers in love research is that there is much difference, that there's this major difference between men and women. There really isn't.

    6. SB

      Okay.

    7. AM

      There really isn't. It's more about who you are at your core, more about attachment style, personality. Your life experience, your genetics, all these sorts of things are much more of a factor in whether or not you will be comfortable with monogamy, uh, or any of those aspects than whether or not you're male or female.

    8. SB

      And again, you said that there's n- not a difference between-... well-being and satisfaction levels-

    9. AM

      No.

    10. SB

      ... versus monogamous and polyamorous relationships?

    11. AM

      No, absolutely not.

    12. SB

      How do you know this?

    13. AM

      Because we've done studies on it. We've, we've asked, we've done, we used the same satisfaction scales about, you know, um, how satisfied are you in your relationship with various aspects of that relationship, and they come out as being absolutely no different.

    14. SB

      For what it's worth, babe, I'm g- I'm happy-

    15. AM

      (laughs)

    16. SB

      ... uh, with our relationship. I'm more than happy being monogamous.

    17. AM

      (laughs)

    18. SB

      I, I, I f- I find it to be a much, (laughs) much easier life.

    19. AM

      Well, the only thing polyamorous people say is you have to have a cracking Google calendar.

    20. SB

      (laughs) Yeah, the time, yeah.

  14. 43:09 – 48:54

    Why the First 1000 Days Are Critical for a Baby

    1. SB

    2. AM

      Yes, yeah.

    3. SB

      Let's talk about the first thousand days.

    4. AM

      Mm.

    5. SB

      So, you really believe that the first thousand days of a child's life are the most critical.

    6. AM

      Yes.

    7. SB

      And linked to this is the role of both the mother and the father.

    8. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    9. SB

      It's long been assumed that the father is surplus to requirements, that they're not really that important as long as they're, you know, in the stereotypical context, as long as they're providing for the family, they don't really need to be around. Is that true? And what do we need to know about how formative those first thousand days are for a child?

    10. AM

      Okay. First of all, no, it's not true. Um, uh, it's absolutely fundamental, I think, for a child to get some input from a father. I'm gonna define father. In the West, we're a bit obsessed with the term biological father, and we always describe that as the real father, even if he's not around, even if that child has been brought up by a stepfather, an adoptive father, what we call a social father, which is a grandfather, an uncle, a best friend, an older brother. When I say father, people assume I mean biological father. I don't. I mean, the man or men who have stepped in and done the job, that is the father. So I want to make that very clear, first of all. We know that young people who grow up without that input, the risks of having negative outcomes, uh, is much higher without having a male role model or some male rodel- models in your life. We know that they are much more likely to display antisocial behavior. They are much more likely to turn to crime. They are much more likely to have addiction issues. They are much more likely to have mental health issues. And their outcomes in terms of relationships going through their life wi- and other aspects of their lives are much more negative. And there is a reason for that. So men have a very specific role in child development, and I wasn't expecting to find this when I first started, but I've looked at fathering around the world in many, many different cultures and how men arrive at that role is very different. Um, the he- the fathering role is much more diverse than the mothering role. It's partly because the mother's role is very tied by biology, by pregnancy, childbirth, et cetera. Whereas men, we call it a facultative role. And what that means is it's much more flexible. It's much more open to responding to changes in the environment and adapting to them to help the family survive. And we see that all the way around the world. So dads do it lots of different ways. It really depends in your environment what the major risk is. So in our environment, you know, we don't really have survival risks in our environment, not to the extent that they do in some cultures. So as a dad in, in societies where survival, day-to-day survival is a, is a problem, whether it's a war zone or whether there are major, major disease issues, then a dad's role there is to m- keep that kid alive. If we look at other environments where survival is reasonably secure, but economic survival is very on edge, then in those e- environments, we tend to see fathers, again, not particularly hands-on in terms of care-taking or nurturing. They are the, um, person in that kid's life who's gonna teach them the skills they need to go forward and be economically successful. So if you live in a pastoral, uh, environment, then they will be taken into the fields and they will be taught how to do that role, and then they will be taken to the markets and they will be taught how to negotiate and build the social networks they need. And then in our environment where economics is reasonably secure comparatively, survival is reasonably secure comparatively, then we are social survival is important. In our world, it really is who you know. But what I found, r- regardless of how you were doing it, was all fathers have one major, major role. And, and it's a bit of a technical term and I'll explain what it is. They scaffold the child's entry into the world beyond the family. And what that means is they are the parent when it comes to developing the skills, the neural connections, the biology, the physiology that enables you to leave your family and go out into the world and be successful, to thrive and survive. And it starts when a baby is born. So the attachments that a dad and a mom build to that baby are just as powerful as each other, but they are different. So a mom's attachment is based upon nurture. And, uh, what we tend to say with a mom and child attachment is it's quite exclusive. So if you imagine, uh, um, a mother, her major role with that child is to nurture and protect. And so when she's with that child, she will hold that child to her. It's very inward looking. With dads, they do nurture. Absolutely, they nurture, they do all that kind of thing, but they use that nurturing to build confidence in that child as a secure base, which is what attachment's about, and what they actually do is they turn the child to the world and they go, "Okay, you're safe with me. I am always here. But I'm gonna give you a push and you're gonna go out into the world and you're gonna see what the world is like. And I'm gonna be the person who gives you the resilience and gives you the social skills and gives you what you need to be able to do that. And you can always come back to me when it goes wrong." So what we say with a, with a father's attachment is it's based on nurture and challenge. Mom is very nurturing, dad is stimulation. "I'm gonna stimulate you and you're gonna go and do something amazing." And, and that is why you need fathers, because those outcomes we have for kids who don't have an input from a father figure, the reason why they struggle with antisocial behavior is it's because dads are the ones that underpin social behavior, pro-social behavior like helping, sharing, caring, emotional regulation and inhibition. You need to learn to regulate your emotions and inhibit them appropriately to get on in this world. You can't go into a school and you cannot go into the workplace screaming your head off when you get angry. That's not how it works. We know that fathers, when it comes to education, both moms and dads have a pretty equal input in terms of academic success. But fathers have a greater role in instilling appropriate learning behavior. Being in the classroom, taking in what's going on, cooperating with other people, cooperating with the teacher, not disturbing everybody else, that kind of thing. They are the ones that underpin that.

    11. SB

      How do they do that? Is it chemically or is it...

    12. AM

      It's several things. It's partly chemical. So we know that...Chil- one of the earliest behaviors you will see a father do with a child from about six months on is a thing called rough-and-tumble play.

  15. 48:54 – 51:50

    Rough and Tumble: The Parenting Technique Every Parent Should Teach

    1. AM

    2. SB

      Rough-and-tumble play.

    3. AM

      Okay. And men seem to be drawn to it. Not all men do it, and we'll talk about the people who don't find it comfortable, but most men, when we just tell them to go and do something with their kid, they're not gonna do some coloring. They're gonna take the kid outside, they're gonna throw it in the air, they're gonna chase it round the garden, they're gonna aeroplane it over their head. They're gonna come in, they're gonna bounce on the sofa, they're gonna do a little wrestling. There's lots of shrieking, there's lots of energy. And we see pretty much all Western fathers do that. And the reason for it is twofold. First of all, it's a very quick way of bonding with your child. Dads have to bond through interaction. They don't have the head start of childbirth, which is a whole tsunami of bonding hormones. So they do it through interaction. And rough-and-tumble play is a really time-efficient way to do it. You d- you get a massive tidal wave of bonding hormones, because it's, because it's so physical, so you get beta endorphin. Ah, because, uh, there's lots of touch, there's lots of giggling. So all of these things release dopamine, beta endorphin, oxytocin. They bond you tightly to the child you're playing with, and the child gets them as well. But also, it's starting to underpin some teaching about social skills, because the basis of all social, um, behavior is reciprocity, is give and take. And when we play with someone, it only remains fun if that reciprocity is reasonably balanced. You learn empathy, because you've got to work out, is this still fun for the other person or are they no longer enjoying this? Have I gone too far? You learn to deal with challenge. Rough-and-tumble play can be pretty extreme. It can be a little bit painful, it can be a little bit risky.

    4. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. AM

      And so you're saying to the kid, "Assess the risk, assess the risk. Here's the challenge, can you deal with the challenge?" And all of that underpins, uh, that child's neural development, first of all, but also you're showing, by example, social skills, um, saying reciprocity. But what's really interesting, and I love this piece of research, and this came out from a group in Israel, uh, headed by Ruth Feldman, who is a pioneer of neuroscience in terms of children and their parents. She, um, she found that dads and children have co-evolved to prefer to play with each other. Okay. So when you're a parent, you will get a peak in oxytocin from certain behaviors you do with your child. You'll always get a bit of oxytocin because anything you do with them is probably very nice, apart from maybe the tantrums. But if you're a dad, that peak in oxytocin comes from playing with your kid. And then when we look at kids, when they, the peak in, a- uh, um, oxytocin release they get when they're playing with their dads, again, isn't when daddy gives me a cuddle, which is nice, but, you know, I don't get a big release. It's when I play with daddy.

    6. SB

      So is that different to women?

    7. AM

      Yes. So women get their peak in activate- uh, of oxytocin released from nurturing their children, particularly from hugging them. And kids get their peak in oxytocin when they interact with mom, from mom's cuddles, not from playing with mom. So naturally, kids kind of gravitate towards dads when they want to have fun. And dad ch- that's the kind of thing he will choose to do with his child, something that's, um, physical, something that's stimulatory. And that's what's really interesting and that's, in a way, why dad's kind of got the moniker of, oh, you're the fun parent. You do all the fun stuff. But actually, play is fundamental to a child's development. Absolutely fundamental to their social development and also building that really critical bond with

  16. 51:50 – 54:25

    How Your Brain and Body Change When Becoming a Dad

    1. AM

      dad.

    2. SB

      If I was to have a baby now...

    3. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    4. SB

      How would my body, my, my brain, my, my body, how would it change?

    5. AM

      Okay. It would change in two ways. There's the biological changes you would undergo. So this is something that we didn't know about 20 years ago, and I and other colleagues around the world have, have looked into this. And the reason why we looked into it is because, as I said, very rare to have human fathering, really rare, 5% of mammals. And the way evolution works is it generally doesn't cause a whole new behavior to evolve without giving you some sort of head start in being able to do it. And so over time, in the la- last half a million years as fatherhood evolved, men's brains changed, their psychology changes, their hormones change when they become fathers, to, to give you that, that prep to be a parent. Um, so first of all, we see hormonal changes. The, the most studied, and I think probably the most significant, is the drop in testosterone that occurs when you become a father. So you will have already experienced a drop in testosterone because you're in a long-term relationship. So-

    6. SB

      No, no, I haven't.

    7. AM

      Yes, you have. (laughs)

    8. SB

      (laughs)

    9. AM

      So when a man enters a long-term relationship for a first, for the first time, he will experience a drop in testosterone. Because testosterone is a really great chemical, uh, if you're dating, because it makes you more competitive, and it makes you more attractive if you, if you're in a heterosexual relationship. So it makes you more attractive. But when you start, you know, living with someone or being in a long-term relationship, we kinda need you to shift your focus from the horizon and looking for another date, and we need you to focus on that, that one person. Because from an evolutionary point of view, that person is gonna be the person you have kids with, and we'd quite like you to stick around and look after those kids. So that happens. When you become a father for the first time, it drops again. And it can be up to 30%. So you lose a third of your testosterone. And the reason for that, again, is we need you to focus in on the family. We, we can't have you looking to the horizon for another mate. We need to focus on, because we know that children need input from ju- more than just mom to survive.

    10. SB

      This sounds all very monogamous.

    11. AM

      I'll talk about it in a minute. Okay.

    12. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    13. AM

      So this is, so, so you focus in on that child. Testosterone is also, um, when it's very high, it blocks the bonding hormones. So dopamine and oxytocin, in particular, have less of an effect. So the testosterone drops also to enable you to start bonding with that child, because you are, you are behind in terms of bonding with that child 'cause mom's gone through pregnancy in, in most cases and given birth. So she's had a head start. She's had a load of oxytocin, dopamine, and beta endorphin during the birth process. You haven't. So t- t- so we need to, like, release those hormones as soon as we can. One of the ways we do that is testosterone drops so that oxytocin and dopamine are more

  17. 54:25 – 58:22

    Why Some Dads Don’t Instantly Bond With Their Kids

    1. AM

      effective and more efficient.

    2. SB

      Which explains why some fathers say that they don't feel bonded to their child in the early stages...

    3. AM

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      ... or before.

    5. AM

      Yeah. I'll explain why that is as well in a minute. So that's oxytocin and dopamine. We also know, just generally from studies whether men are fathers or not, men with lower testosterone tend to be more motivated to care for children. So even if you're not a father, if we present you with a crying baby, men with very high testosterone, the reaction to that is mainly aversive, like...Okay. Just take it away from me. And also, they get quite frustrated. They find it quite, quite difficult to deal with as a noise. Men with low testosterone tend to be more motivated to pick the baby up, try and soothe the baby, and deal with it. And, and whilst it's a difficult noise to hear, they tend not to experience negative emotions in relation to it. So that drop in testosterone's really, really important. Over evolutionary time, we think that people were probably socially monogamous for a period of time which matched the period of time they needed t- to ensure that a child's gonna survive. So whilst in our, you know, in our, um, culture it's like, "No, you will marry till you die. You will be monogamous till you die," in evolutionary history, that probably wasn't the case. Fathers might've stuck around for probably at least until, uh, childhood, which is between about 5 and 10. They might've stayed long into, into the teenage years depending upon how difficult the environment was. And also, this doesn't mean they weren't having sex somewhere else.

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. AM

      So this is social monogamy. We also see changes in oxytocin rises. Uh, if you live with your pregnant partner, it will start to rise in pregnancy, as well your partner's. Um, and that's there to make sure, first of all, that your bond to your partner tightens because you're about to introduce somebody new into your relationship, and it's not gonna be easy. So we need that to be tight. But it's also to start preparing you for after birth. We know that vasopressin also rises. Vasopressin is a sort of form of oxytocin, but in non-human ma- mammals, it's associated with defense of the nest. And we think in h- in male humans, it's to do with protection and motivation to protect that child. And finally, we see an increase in a, in a parenting hormone known as prolactin. And prolactin is only seen in males in species that haven't invested in fathers. And prolactin, again, is a parenting hormone that motivates you to care. So you go through this massive change in hormones. A lot of men say they don't notice the drop in testosterone in terms of things like strength. So I get, uh, contact about a lot of men saying, "But I, I love weight training."

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. AM

      "Is this gonna ruin my..." No, it's not. It doesn't do anything like that. Think of the number of Olympic athletes who have kids. You're fine. Um, what it does do is it i- i- it's, it increases your emotional vulnerability. So quite often with fathers, you will hear they're more empathetic after birth, and also they find it harder to deal with emotionally difficult things, particularly like on the news. Suddenly, things on the news will make them cry when they never cried before.

    10. SB

      Will they ever get their testosterone levels back?

    11. AM

      Only if you don't have contact with your child. So if you don't have contact with your child, and you don't have to co-reside with your child. These studies have been done across cultures, including cultures where co-residence doesn't occur. Um, as long as you are in contact with your child, no, they won't, because you, you are still maintained in looking after that child. If you lose contact with your child, yes, they will go back up because the evolutionary drive is to then reproduce again.

    12. SB

      So if I have a kid, and then I stick around and raise the kid-

    13. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    14. SB

      ... assuming I s- stick around-

    15. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    16. SB

      ... my testosterone levels will never get back to the level it was before I had the kid?

    17. AM

      No, never.

    18. SB

      I mean, that's slightly ... I mean, I l- you know, I'll love my future kid, I'm sure.

    19. AM

      (laughs) I will say to dads, 'cause they do worry about it, and I understand why they worry about it because they believe very much that testosterone is the male hormone. It is and it isn't. You know, women have testosterone, and it's, it's one of the sex hormones. It's not, it really isn't associated with things like stress. You might find things like your, uh, if you have a tendency to aggression, you might find that drops a little bit. And as I say, you become more empathetic and you become more emotionally vulnerable. But it's really, it's not going to impact a huge amount physiologically in you, so really don't worry about it. And also, you get the most amazing rewarding bond with your kid in return. So you drop the testosterone, but you get this astonishing bond. So it's swings and

  18. 58:22 – 1:02:00

    Mental Health Issues From Lacking a Father Figure Early On

    1. AM

      roundabouts.

    2. SB

      You said earlier that if the father's not around, there's implications for teenage mental health?

    3. AM

      Yes. So because fathers underpin resilience through starting with rough and tumble play, but carrying on through that child's life and doing stimulatory activities with that kid, they're the ones that underpin mental resilience. And obviously, mental resilience is particularly key for mental health. Also because they underpin scaffolding the child's ability to operate in the social world. A lot of the disorders we see in teenage, um, young people are associated with social situations. So social anxiety, eating disorders, self-harm, depression, loneliness. They tend to all exist within the social sphere. And because of that, that's why it's actually the relationship you have with your dad, particularly the attachment relationship you have, so if it's a nice secure attachment relationship, you are much me- less likely to suffer from those disorders. And also, particularly, you know, how much time your dad spends with you and inputs into you is important. So kids are really interesting. They measure their importance to their parents in different ways. S- if you say to them, "How do you know you're important to your mom?" They'll say, "Well, my mom does stuff for me. She makes sure I've got my favorite cereal. She makes sure that I get picked up from school and I can have my playdates, and she, you know, makes sure my sports kit is washed." And the ... And it's all terribly gender specific. I do apologize, but this is, this is the data. If you say to the kid, "How do you know you're important to your dad?" "He spends time with me." And we think it's probably cultural because in our culture, dads are still more likely to be out at work. So the precious thing you, you have as a man is your time. And if I give my time to you as a child, particularly if I do something you're interested in, and I accept you as an individual and say, "Yeah, let's be enthusiastic about what you wanna do," then that is what underpins how you feel, how that, how important that child feels, and that underpins their self-esteem.

    4. SB

      Because I talked about ketosis on this podcast, and ketones, a brand called Ketone IQ sent me their little product here, and it was on my desk when I got to the office. I picked it up, it sat on my desk for a couple of weeks, then one day, I tried it. And honestly, I have not looked back ever since. I now have this everywhere I go. When I travel all around the world, it's in my hotel room. My team will put it there. Before I did the podcast recording today that I've just finished, I had a shot of Ketone IQ. And as is always the case when I fall in love with a product, I called the CEO and asked if I could invest a couple of million quid into their company. So I'm now an investor in the company, as well as them being a brand sponsor. I find it so easy to drop into deep focused work when I've had one of these. I would love you to try one and see the impact it has on you, your focus, your productivity, and your endurance. So if you wanna try it today, visit ketone.com/stephen for 30% off your subscription. Plus, you'll receive a free gift with your second shipment. That's ketone.com/stephen. I'm excited for you. I am.I started my first business at 12 years old, and I started more businesses at 14, 15, 16, 17, and 18. And at that time, what I didn't realize is that being a founder with no money meant that I also had to be the marketeer, the sales rep, the finance team, customer service, and the recruiter. But if you're starting a business today, thankfully there's a tool that wears all of those hats for you, our sponsor today, which is Shopify. Because of all of its AI integrations, using Shopify feels a bit like you've hired an entire growth team from day one, taking care of writing product descriptions, your website design and enhancing your product's images. Not to mention the bits you'd expect Shopify to handle, like the shipping, like the taxes, like the inventory. And if you're looking to get your business started, go to shopify.com/bartlett and sign up for a $1 per month trial. That's shopify.com/bartlett.

  19. 1:02:00 – 1:11:08

    Implications of an Absent Mother

    1. SB

      We talked at the top of this conversation about how gender roles have shifted-

    2. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SB

      ... and how more women are college-educated and more women are in work, and they're climbing the economic ladder. This also means that mothers are more likely to be around less in such a world-

    4. AM

      Yeah.

    5. SB

      ... especially when we consider the way that, that the offices have been designed and the working week has been designed.

    6. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    7. SB

      Have you thought much about the implications of an absent mother? 'Cause we talked a lot about the absent father-

    8. AM

      Yeah.

    9. SB

      ... but an absent mother or a mother who puts their child into, into daycare, or is working five, five days a week?

    10. AM

      Yeah. I must admit, I haven't, because I, I don't study mothers. Mothers is a massive a- amount of work done on, uh, and I'm kind of filling the gaps in terms of fathers. To be absolutely honest, the roles of a mom and a dad in a heterosexual relationship have evolved to kind of complement each other. So they don't mirror each other. They don't do the same thing. Um, they complement each other. So what happens when we take one of those away for that child? There are two things to say to that. First of all, in most children's lives, we talk about single-parent families, and what we're talking about is a single parent raising that child. But actually, if we look outside that, that particular dyad, that particular couple, and we look at who else is inputting into that child's life. So quite often, I study it as, obviously in relation to absent fathers. What we tend to find is that child has other people in their life who are men, who input, even if the mom hasn't recognized it. One of the most powerful studies I read wasn't saying to a mom, "Where are the father figures in your child's life?" It was saying to the kid, "Who are the important men in your life?" And the kid would go, "Oh, my football coach, or my maths teacher, or my mate John's dad," or they often recognize father figures. They don't call them that, but they recognize men in their lives who they look up to, who support them, who the parents or the mom doesn't even think about. So that's the first thing to say. Secondly, we know with gay fathers, where a mom isn't in a caretaking role, the brain adapts. Okay, so what happens if we put, um, a heterosexual couple in a scanner-

    11. SB

      Yeah.

    12. AM

      ... and we say, "Look, look at, look at this video of your child." We see different peaks in activation-

    13. SB

      Yeah.

    14. AM

      ... in the brain. So in mom, we see a peak in activation at the core of the brain here. Okay? Very ancient. It's partly there because mothering is as old as time.

    15. SB

      Yeah.

    16. AM

      So it's in the ancient unconscious part of the brain. But this is where nurture is, attachment, risk detection, all those things you need to be able to do. Uh, and then we get that peak there. However, if we look at dad's activation, he does have some activation here. Obviously, he does. He's very capable of nurturing and protecting. But actually, the peak in activation is in the neocortex. This is this bit of the brain. This is the conscious brain. It's much younger. Um, and that shows you that fathering is younger. It's about half a million years old. And we see activation here in the social part of the brain. Okay? So this is the prefrontal cortex, which is here-

    17. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    18. AM

      ... and the orbital frontal cortex, which is kind of above your eyes. And that's where all your social skills sit-

    19. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    20. AM

      ... your ability to do everything socially. And then at the back of the brain, we have two areas at the back of the brain which are linked to empathy, which is the basis of relationships, and mentalizing. So that's that ability to know someone's intention.

    21. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    22. AM

      You need it just to have a conversation, but you also need it, uh, to spot somebody who's going to maybe do you bad in some way, cheat, lie, whatever, those sorts of things. Again, important in the social world. And his peak in activations are there. Again, mom does have some peaks in activate, uh, some activation here, but it's not as intense. And that underpins those two different roles.

    23. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    24. AM

      So dad's attachment is new. Mom's attachment is very ancient and nurturing. If you have a gay primary caretaking father without a mother involved, what you see is you see both bits light up at the same intensity. So he gets the dad activation, obviously, being a man, but he also gets the mom's activation. And what's really absolutely fascinating is if we look at that brain, there is a new, a brand new neural connection between this bit of the brain here and this bit of the brain here, so they can communicate.

    25. SB

      So is the, is a woman not playing a unique role at all in raising a child?

    26. AM

      Well, arguably, neither is a man, because if we look in, if we were to look in probably, uh, a gay woman's brain, we'd see the same thing. And it's not saying that they're not playing u- unique roles. In a heterosexual relationship, they absolutely do. But what it's showing you, human children are incredibly difficult to raise. They are pretty much, apart from maybe dolphins and, and a bit of an ape, um, the most intense kid to raise, because they're, because they're born so helpless. Okay?

    27. SB

      Yeah.

    28. AM

      And the only way a human baby can survive is if it gets enough input. So the human brain, the human parenting brain, is astonishingly plastic, and it will adapt to make sure that that child gets what it needs.

    29. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    30. AM

      And so where we've got one of the adults missing, mom or dad, it will adapt to say, okay, the remaining adult, or whether, even if there's two dads or two moms, that primary caretaking one, their brain will alter to make sure that kid still gets what it needs.

Episode duration: 2:20:04

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