The Diary of a CEOWorld’s No.1 Matchmaker: How To FIND And KEEP Real Love!: Paul Brunson | E187
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,188 words- 0:00 – 2:58
Intro
- PBPaul C. Brunson
I think most of us do the first date completely wrong. We set ourselves up to fail, and the reason why is because... (dramatic music)
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's so true.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
I can't believe how true this is.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Paul Brunson.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
The world's most influential matchmaker. He's got a hit show on Oprah's network. Married at First Sight UK. This you may never have heard before. My expertise is relationship science, and the beauty of science is that if you can change the formula, you change the result. So, if you are someone who is in a relationship and you're unsure how to communicate, there are certain things that you could change.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Tell me what those are.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
It seems so simple, but it literally changed my marriage. So, we're terrible when it comes to making any type of rational decision around our love life. But if you can't have emotional intimacy, you just simply can't have a relationship. You have acquaintances, you have situationships, but you don't have relationships.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Let's talk about sex. Can you be physically attracted to somebody but then not have sexual attraction?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
There are different languages, sexual languages. You have to understand how your partner, the language that they speak sex in. Men, we need to know this. 70 to 80% of women need...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Before this episode begins, I just wanna say a huge thank you to all of our new subscribers. 74% of you that watch this channel didn't subscribe before, and we're now down to about 71%, so that helps us in a number of ways that are quite hard to explain, but simply, the bigger the channel gets, the bigger the guests get. So, if you haven't yet subscribed to The Diary of a CEO, if I could have any favors from you, if you've ever watched this show and enjoyed it, it's just to- to please hit the subscribe button. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (upbeat music) Paul, give me your context. What do I need to know about you from your earliest years, from those first sort of 15, 16 years of your life that would give me the context I need to understand the person you are today?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
So, I was born in Jamaica, Queens.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, wow.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
You know? And our claim to fame is, uh, is, is Curtis Jackson, 50 Cent, right, uh, being shot nine times in our neighborhood (laughs) . That's our claim to fame. But everyone was like, "Okay, I get it." That's- that's where it was. Um, so grew up there. It was a heavy Caribbean, Jamaican, uh, first and second generation neighborhood. But my father was ... he was the first in his family to go to college. He focused in, uh, computer science.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, wow.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yeah. And so he, you know, hustled
- 2:58 – 8:34
Early years
- PBPaul C. Brunson
and my mother hustled and was- they- we were able to buy a home in Long Island, and that was the, like, you've made it. You've moved out the city and you've moved to- to Long Island. We were the first Black family to live in this neighborhood. The first, I'm- I'm talking about. 100 homes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
We were the first Black family. Because of that, when I moved to that neighborhood, I was the underdog, I was the outsider, and I was treated as such. I remember being on the bus and just psst, like smashed up against the- the- the glass, um, punched, kicked. You know, it's one of these where f- I mean, for no reason, like, for no reason other than the color of my skin. Um, so that was- that was growing up.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And how has that manifested in- in your adult life?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
I'm a fighter, you know? I think that's really what I ... You know, it's interesting. I, even I notice when I walk into a room, I seek out the underdog and I try to champion them. So, if I walk into a room, I'll look for the person who's hugging the wall, the person who's in the corner by themselves, and I will intentionally walk over to them, you know, try to befriend them. So th- this is- this has been this through line of my life is- is trying to champion people who I feel were the ones who were, you know, like me, you know, smashed up against the- the bus window.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you eventually went off to university, college?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What career did you go into immediately after college?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Investment banking.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Interesting.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Ended up hating it for the passion.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Explain.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Oh, my God. I mean, talk about eat you up, spit you out culture, you know? Like, here's the best, here- here- here's how- here's how I reminisce about investment banking. My boss at the time w- was 33 years old, right? Uh, multimillionaire, he was considered one of the top, uh, so the division I was in was, uh, was banks, we covered banks, so he was one of the top investment bankers, um, you know, covering banks, but top investment banker, right? His wife was pregnant at the time that we were working on a huge deal. It was the, at that time it was the largest secondary offering in the history, right, of- of, just history. But so it's a major deal. His wife is pregnant, first child. She's starting to give birth. He decides to come into work and he sends her to the hospital. And he comes into work, and I'll never forget it, he's- he's walking down th- th- the aisle, I'm, like, in a cubicle, he's got the office in front of me, he's walking down the aisle and people are standing up like this. (clapping) Like, "Yeah, this is, that's right, you come here. This is the most important thing. Yeah, she, let her go off and do that," right? That was the moment where I said...... this place is, this is like, this is crazy. You know, it's crazy, it's ridiculous. And so that was when I started thinking, okay, I need to, I need to get out of here.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then you went and worked for Enver?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
No. I didn't, I didn't go to Enver yet.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, okay.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
I went off to, I did what everybody does, I went to business school.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Ah, okay.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
And so, went to business school. While I was ... So, while I was at business school, I met Enver Yucel. I didn't start working for him, but I met him.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Who is he?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
So, so he, at that time, multimillionaire, but he owned a ma- a massive company in Turkey. He was trying to extend his business in the United States and when I met him, it was a professional relationship, and it was more so, "Hey, Paul, whenever I come to the United States, I'd love for you to help me to schedule meetings, or help for you, uh, help me to get booked in to people." Because I lived in Washington, DC at the time and Capitol Hill was there, lots of senators and congresspeople, and so it was easy for me to pick up the phone, work the, the, the network to get a meeting with, it could be Senator Hillary Clinton. And so I was helping him at the time. Then I came up with a concept to start a nonprofit organization and I needed to raise funding, or I wanted to raise funding for it, and I decided that I would ask Enver to help me, um, on this. So that's when I started working for Enver Yucel.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How old are you at that age?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
I don't know, that's, uh, I'm 30. I'm in the, I'm in the 30 zone.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In your early-
- PBPaul C. Brunson
I think.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In your early 30s, you start your, your matchmaking company. What was it about matchmaking that just connected with you inside and made you... Because in order to, to be, to get obsessed with anything, to go and study it, to, to then pursue it for all these years, it has to be connecting with you because of your experiences, your biases, your... In a, in a very particular way, because I'm somewhat interested in it, but I wouldn't dedicate my... I wouldn't dedicate that kind of attention to it. So what did, was it about you that resonated so much about bringing people together in such a way?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Fair. You, you know, thinking about this for the first time is, I'm actually connecting it to what you asked me with regard to how I grew up, right? 'Cause to me, nearly every person who comes to a matchmaker... 'Cause keep in mind, you're,
- 8:34 – 12:49
Why match making?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
you're probably spending $10,000 to $20,000, you know, for, for matchmaking services. You're probably allocating 6 to 12 months of your life to walk through that process. It, it is, it's a lot, right? And to me, ev- the kernel of every client is, there, there's, there's a, th- there's, there's a feeling of hopelessness. There's a feeling of this is my last shot, you know? There's a feeling of I am alone, you know, in, in, in this, and that's where I resonated. You know, I always talk about, I th- you know, and in, in business, you know, we talk about this fifth why, right? The why that makes you cry, the w- the why that, when you're thinking about a customer, what are they thinking about at night? What's keeping them up, right, at night? And if you, as an entrepreneur or business owner, if you can help to solve that problem that's keeping them up at night, the why that's making them cry, well, that's, that's the, the secret sauce. But the key is that you have to be passionate about that, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Because it's going to take you a lot of, you know, innovations and a lot of time, a lot of energy to figure out what the formula is. But for me, that, that was what it was. It, it was, there was, like, this level of, like, I'm, I'm giving up hope. You know, I'm, I'm just, I'm, I'm just done. And also, it was for a particular avatar, which I think is also important, for a particular customer. So, you know, what I've always learned in business is that you can't serve everyone, right? So it's important to find a particular customer, a specific demographic, a customer avatar, right? And look for the deepest pain point within that particular avatar. Now, when I got into the matchmaking space, I was the first, or what the Matchmaking Institute says, I was the first full-time Black matchmaker in the United States, okay? In matchmaking, what a lot of people don't like to talk about what was happening is there was significant segregation happening in the matchmaking space. And what was happening is that, in particular, Black women were not being serviced by matchmakers, for a variety of reasons, but they were not being serviced at all. So my first customer, my first avatar, were Black women, in particular in the, uh, we call it the DMV, DC, Maryland, Virginia area. And so there was a very particular pain point within the avatar, right? And so it was hopelessness, but it wasn't just hopelessness.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Now that I've described, you know, the avatar, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
This is someone who most likely, she's highly educated, she, she's making great money, she has, uh, a, a child, you know? Um, she is incredible, um, match for someone. So, so she became my first, she became my first client, and I was passionate. You know why? 'Cause she was my sister-in-law, she was my auntie, you know, she was my cousin. I know her, I live with her, I've grown up with her. That was why I was so, you know, so passionate about her.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is, what is the relationship your, your parents had?And how has that influenced your work?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yeah. Great- great one. They have had an incredibly loving relationship. You know, and- and- and not just my parents, but my grandparents.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's no surprise, is it? 'Cause then you've had this st- you know, staggering long relationship with Jill. It's funny how that, you know, those generational cycles play out over and over again, right?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yeah. And- and that- and that's it. That's it. It's like, "Let's break the cycle," you know? Look, we- we can break the cycle. That- that was- that was part of it playing out, you know, with my wife Jill, her parents, incredibly strong, right? Her grandparents on both sides,
- 12:49 – 15:37
The influence your parents had on your work
- PBPaul C. Brunson
incredibly strong, incredibly loving.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's an interesting question for anybody listening to this now, which is like, how much does your relationship currently, if you're in one, mirror that of your parents? And I think about, you know, even the- the- in my team here, the people that have the best relationships in my team, their parents have the best relationships, and their partners' parents have the best relationships. Like, just that solid best friend type vibes, multi-decade best friend vibes in their parents.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's interesting.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yeah. And- and I- so, um, I agree. I think if we did that- we did this- uh, you know, longitudinal study around that-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
... we would find that to be precise. But part of what I think is driving it is... I mean, you could go back and look at attachment styles, but I think largely what's- what's driving that is- is- is seeing what love looks like modeled before you, right? And know that it's not always, uh, what we consider to be lovey-dovey. It can be contentious. A matter of fact, disagreements and arguments are important. Are- are- are- are critical, right? 'Cause you need to almost break down the relationship in order to gain the skills to- to- to- to- to bring it back up, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
And that's what makes it stronger. And so I think the modeling is- is- is key.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's so true. So true. I- and I've- it took me, until I was 25 years to- old to figure this out, that modeling point, that the first model you've been given of love is your parents. So, you believe that to be the truth about any person you then meet in your life. And so you- I- I can remember, like, almost in high definition in my mind, this image of looking over at my dad sat on the sofa and my mom just screaming at him and thinking, "I'd fucking hate to be this guy." And then I go into life and I just avoid.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Avoid. Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like, avoid every... I'm obsessed about having control over my life.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yes. I mean, and you-
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've heard you talk about this before, so (laughs) Yes. Yeah. I was gonna say yes. Yeah (laughs) .
- PBPaul C. Brunson
I mean, thi- this is- that is prototype avoidant-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, that's me.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
... attachment style.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Right? And- and what's- what's so interesting to me about attachment style, which by the way, um, uh, it's, uh, uh, Levine, Dr. Levine wrote a phenomenal book called Attached-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yes.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
... right, on this that, I recommend for- for everyone, is, you know, there are primarily three categories of attachment. You have secure, you have anxious, and then you have avoidant, right? And when you think about this, it's precisely what you just said, Stephen, is that when you think of how you first saw love and you saw it modeled and you saw it relate to you, right, was it one of which was secure in that you felt
- 15:37 – 22:44
Attachment styles
- PBPaul C. Brunson
like you would be... you know, if you were hurt, you could go to a place for safety, right? You would be caressed, right? You'd be h- you'd- you'd- you'd be cared for, you know? That's secure. But then you move to the avoidant, right? Where it was you almost having to self-soothe yourself, right? Which then pushes you away from wanting to have- have anything to do with that, and you become... And you know what's interesting? The top... uh, and this is just me guessing and observing, the top entrepreneurs are avoidants, because they've had to develop the skills to self-sustain themselves, right? They've had to rely on themselves. People who are avoidant don't trust easily, but you trust yourself, right? So, you look at that and you say, "Oh my God," like, "this came from me as a child." Like, it's- it's incredible. And then with the anxious, the anxious is really interesting, because the anxious was typically a lot of parents, like my situation, where your parents worked all the time. So, when they were home, they would be there to give you the love, but they couldn't be home all the time, 'cause they had to be- they had to work, so then you had to self-soothe a little bit. So, then you became anxious about their love.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Needy.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Needy. And this is the person who's, like, texting you all the time. Like, St-... I know in the past, you must have had the- the girlfriend who was like, "Stephen, where are you? Stephen, where are you?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
No- no comment (laughs)
- PBPaul C. Brunson
(laughs) "Stephen, where are you? Where are you? Where are you?" Right? All of that shows up as adults, right? Uh, and- and also, this is... but- but I guess, long story short is, to the point of when we recognize that, this is why being in a relationship with someone who is secure is so important, because you can shift your style as an adult. You can be avoidant, be in a relationship with someone who's secure, and adapt to a secure attachment.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(smacks lips) Do you notice that? Do you notice that people who are avoidant tend to go for- for people that are more secure?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Na- they go for- for the anxious.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Interesting.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Right. Yeah. Yeah. They-
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, they go for needy people.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yeah (laughs) . Right. B- because- because-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Makes sense.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yeah, because... I mean, it becomes a bit of a... you know, uh, they're- they're chasing them, and they're- they're... because, you know, you think about this, if you're avoidant, you're pretty much self-sustained.... right? But if someone is anxious, they're aggressively courting you, right? So they're pushing to be in your space, right? So the secure, unfortunately, becomes boring for so many people. Safe, vanilla. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's so true. I can't believe-
- PBPaul C. Brunson
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... how true this is. (laughs)
- PBPaul C. Brunson
You know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Um, but, but, but secure is where it's at, you know? It's where it's at.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You want two secure people.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
You want a secure and anyone else. A strong secure can help bring, could, could help bring anyone over too.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hm.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
But, uh, but also, you know, an avoidant, an anxious can, can also, uh, you know, work. It's ultimately, to me, it's, it's, it's about that effort.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is there such a way to... So, so if I'm an avoidant, for example, or I'm an anxious, is there work I can do myself to become a secure without having to meet a secure and have them bring me over?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yes, absolutely. One of the top things someone who is avoidant can work on is their emotional intimacy, and that begins with simply recognizing their emotions, your emotions, and articulating them. It's, it's, it seem, it actually seems easy, but it's incredibly challenging.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So uncomfortable.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
So uncomfortable.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Especially for a man.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yes. So for example, I could say, "Steven, how do you f- ... Truly, how do you feel right now in this moment?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Now, in this r- moment, very inspired and very keen to learn-
- 22:44 – 26:04
Men not being honest
- SBSteven Bartlett
Tell me what you think." And you see his face just wink, and it's fucking disgusting, and he goes, "Yeah, it's good."
- PBPaul C. Brunson
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
And for me, it summed up men. It's like we just wanna avoid the, the heat, like...
- PBPaul C. Brunson
We, we... L- literally.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Yeah. Yeah.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
L- l- literally. But, you know, so I have a theory on this, right? So I'm, I'm, I'm testing this one out, right? But, but I call it the feedback loop theory. So my wife was in HR-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
... before she joined me in the matchmaking space. And one of the things that they would do, uh, in their company, she worked in this law firm, is that they would, uh, you know, extensive feedback during the review period, extensive feedback. So, you know, "How was your year? How did you perform all of these, these KPIs?" Right? And that feedback would translate into higher performance. I mean, just bottom line. And what I've noticed with women typically, typically with women is that whenever there's a romantic experience, that romantic experience is then shared with like 10 of their friends.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hm.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
You know, it's like go out on a date, the WhatsApp group knows everything that's happening in, in, on the, on the, on the date, and then there's a debrief of the date. There's an analysis of the date. "Here's what he did. Here's what I wore. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And this happens for three days, constant feedback, and that feedback ends up making women, I think, on average, better daters, right? Better equipped to deal and manage in relationships. Now-... Steven, when you were single, tell me this. If you were going on a date, right? Who did you talk to about the date?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Nobody.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. I just go. Yeah.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
And so, it's all, it's all in your head. It's like, okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I might tell one of my friends, I might say, "Oh, I saw this person the other night." You know, when I was single. I would have gone, you know, "I saw Ruby like three days ago and she... it was fun." You know? (laughs)
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yeah, he was like, "All right, cool."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, and that's it, and then move on.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
And then that's it. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs)
- PBPaul C. Brunson
And that's it. There's no feedback. And think about this, think about, not that just happening on one date, but that happening month after month, year after year, 10, 15 years of no feedback, we're all in our head. We have no idea, like, how to perform, how to up our performance, and that impacts what happens when we eventually get into the relationship. So I, I think the feedback loop, there's really something to it, and I've noticed it's primarily a, a gender difference.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, are you saying also that because women are... have a community where they're discussing stuff, they're discussing feelings and what happened and da-da-da-da-da, they try and bring that same energy to a man who's just not used to it. And he goes, "Fucking hell, like, I, I don't know, like, I..."
- PBPaul C. Brunson
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know what I mean? And he's just like trying to avoid going there 'cause he's never really had to go there before.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Ne- ne- nev- never had to, never had to. When you dig into the data, and this is what I love about love, like in particular, I always say that my expertise is relationship science, right? I like to look at the science of love and look at how that impacts how we show up and why we show up. And the beauty of science is that if you can change the, the formula... not, not necessarily the formula. If you change the equation,
- 26:04 – 34:59
The science of dating
- PBPaul C. Brunson
right, you change the result, and that's the beautiful thing. So if you are someone who is in a relationship and you're unsure how to communicate, there are certain things that you could change to make the communication stronger and make the relationship better.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Tell me what those are.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Oh my God, there's, there's so many.
- SBSteven Bartlett
There's so many of them.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
What are the like foundational things that have worked for you and your clients in terms of like communication, conflict resolution?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Okay, great, great question. Uh, okay so a couple of things. And, and even with not only with my clients but, but with my wife, you know. So, th- this seems, this seems so basic, I think it's talked about but not even talked about enough, is Gary Chapman's Five Love Languages.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
It seems so simple but it literally changed my marriage. So by... You know, there's something called the, the, the five-year itch and the seven-year itch typically in marriages, not committed relationships but marriages, where you literally see separation rates and divorce rates increase at that five and seven-year mark, right? You also see it happen when, uh, they become... when marriages become... you become empty nesters, your, you know, kids go off to school. But right around that five and seven-year mark, I was sleeping on the couch at my house, like it was not good, you know, in our household. And this was so small but so significant is, I bought Dr. Gary Chapman's Five Love Languages, right, which outlines, right, five ways that we recognize and see love. But here was the power of it, the power of it was that my wife, I thought she was spoiled because all she wanted was gifts. Like she was like, "Buy me this, buy me that. It's my birthday, buy me this. It's Christmas, buy me this. It's Monday, buy me this." Right? It was, "Buy me, buy me, buy me," right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
And I thought to myself, "Jesus, she's spoiled. Like, this is crazy." So what do I do? Steven, I bet you would do the same thing. You know what I did?
- SBSteven Bartlett
What?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
I said, "I'm not gonna buy you anything," you know, "because you're spoiled. I'm gonna change this behavior," you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- PBPaul C. Brunson
"I'm not gonna buy you a thing." So what happens when it's her birthday, it's Christmas, it's the anniversary, it's Monday, and I'm not buying her anything? Oh, man, it... like hell, it becomes hell. But it was Dr. Gary Chapman's book that helped me understand that the way that my wife grew up, the way that she saw love through her parents were through gifts. Her father spoiled her to death, right? And her father loved her and showed his love, showered his love through gift, through gift giving. So she as a little girl is growing up thinking, "Okay, you know, I get the doll, I get this, I get this," right? "This is love, this is love, this is love." Her love language is legitimately gifts. I had to understand that fundamentally to understand that this is how she will see that I love her. It's not just simply through maybe what's, you know, uh, you know, acts of service, which is, which is my love language.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And mine.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Right? Do something on my behalf.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Yeah.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Right? So I would do something on her behalf, right? But no, it, it was... it's gifts. And then for her to know, okay, for me, it's acts of service. So if she... you know, she was big on gifts, giving me gifts and I was like, "I don't, I don't, I don't resonate with this," you know? "I don't, I don't get this." And so f- the understanding, truly understanding your partner's love language and then giving them love in that language is a game changer. And a quick way to determine some- someone's love language is just observe how they show love to the people they love, right? What do they do, right? That's a, that's a quick way. So, so, so love language is game changer, game changer, right? So, so that's one. Um, secondly is to un- I think to, to understand that you, you need to argue, right?... great relationships are bids, you're putting in bids. It's a constant tennis match. That's a great relationship, constant tennis match. So, what that means is that you are showing through your action, through your love language, through your words, et cetera, but you're showing that you love your partner, and you're doing that consistently, over, and over, and over, and over, and over again. And what your partner is going to be doing is they're gonna hit that ball back to you, and you're gonna hit that ball back to them. But you have to remember this one thing, sometimes you have to hit the ball five times over, right, the net, before they return the ball to you. And ultimately, what that means is that you have to consistently remind your partner. So, you could be... I'm 21 years into my marriage. People think, "Oh, you're 21, you're good. You don't have to do anything now," right? You're smooth sailing. No, when I get home today, I am still showing up, recognizing that I have to continually put those bids in. You know, I always say, it's like Janet Jackson, What Have You Done For Me Lately, that's truly what a relationship is, is that it's constantly, it's this constant constant, right? And then part of that, that constant too, and maybe this is just a third concept, super simple, but intentional time. Intentional time. So, so, what, what I find really interesting is you look at how much time we spend with our, our partners or our spouse, it's one to two hours a day on av- on average. The average married couple spends one to two hours per day. So, you think about that, you're probably spending more time with the bus driver than you are with, with, with your spouse. And then in the one to two hours, what are you actually doing? It's like ships passing in the night, you know, no real conversation, one's watching TV on this side, one's on the computer over here, no real communication, and what ends up happening is you're not able to exchange ideas, you're not able to talk about, you know, dreams. You're not able to talk about hopes. You're not able to talk about your feelings, you know, you're not able to connect. Intentional time spent. I always say that, you know, effort always equals interest, but whatever is important to you in life, you have to be intentional about spending time on it, you know? And that includes the relationship, that includes it, and so intentional time. So, that may mean, okay, every Friday we're having dinner together, or every night we're having din-... In my household, it's every night we have dinner together as a family. I help- I try to rearrange my schedule so that I'm at home with my family having dinner. And if I get home too late to have dinner with my boys, my wife and I are having dinner at 11:00 PM, 12:00 PM, tw- midnight, but we are communing together, right? This is very important. Uh, you know, we talk about, y- you know, weekly dates. But the whole bottom line is, is spending time. This Saturday, my wife and I, we have a date, right? Yeah, 21 years into our marriage, still planning dates, still excited ab- ab- ab- about the dates. It's intentional time spent, intentional time spent. So, th- I mean, there, there's, there's so many concepts, but I would say that if you just do those... if, if you just think about that, those basics, love language, right, understanding that relationships are always a bid, it's always a bid back and forth, always, and sometimes you have to bid five, six times before you get the ball back, right, but it's, it's always a bid, and then it's intentional time spent, you, you know, you, you, you typic- you typically, you typically grow together opposed to growing apart.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're on the couch five years in, right?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The, the only way off that couch, with all of those things said, is, like, communication. You have to, at some point, you're gonna have to have a tough conversation about something.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, in business, in life, and in everything, um, what I've noticed is most of the issues I have in my life, uh, have become big issues because I didn't have an honest conves- conversation about something sooner, when I knew it was a problem, so I deferred, or I knocked it back, whatever. Um, the art of having a good healthy conversation with someone, with a partner, with someone you love when there's a lot of emotion and tension is something that I don't think we've talked about enough in, in society. Specifically, men really struggle, I think, with that. How does, how does one have a, a
- 34:59 – 40:47
How do we have important, tough conversations?
- SBSteven Bartlett
good rel- conflict resolution-orientated conversation without, you know, fucking screaming, or walk running out, or whatever, or blame, you know?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yeah, yeah, no, I hear you. And, and, and I agree, and I, and I- I hear this, this term, uh, passed around a lot and I agree with it, is, is that the more challenging conversations you have in life, the higher quality your life is, because most of us try to run away, as you're saying, right? So, I think there are a couple things that we could do. One is sometimes you won't be equipped to have that conversation, or your partner won't be equipped to have that conversation, that's the importance of having a third party, right? This is the reason why, you know, therapy is so incredibly important. And I s- and I, and I really try to preach this 'cause I feel like the UK is a little bit behind the US, you know, when it comes to that, is therapy is sexy, you know? Having a counselor is sexy, you know what I mean?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
So, having a third party, a professional, one, that's very important. Secondly is, is, uh, is, is context. Picking the right moments to have these challenging conversations, picking the right environments to have these conversations are incredibly important, right? You could, you could, we could decide that we can have this argument-... in the kitchen when we know that the boys have to be in bed in five minutes, and I know it's been a long day for you, and I haven't slept last night. We could have this conversation right now if you want to. It's probably not going to go in the direction we want it to. Or, we could wait and hold on until Saturday when we're both taking that walk back from dropping the boys off at- at their- at their- at their class, and we have 10 minutes to sit in the park and talk about this." So, to have the right context is incredibly, incredibly important. Third, I think if- if I'm giving top three, is to actually set rules and boundaries, and this does not happen enough in relationships. And I always say that if you don't set boundaries, you will take even well-intentioned partners and turn them into bullies, if you don't set your boundaries. So, you have to set your boundaries from the beginning of the relationship, but in particular when you're having these tough conversations. And boundaries could be as simple as, "We're going to focus on one topic." When you're having a- a- a discussion, the discussion should be about the topic at hand, right? But setting what those boundaries are ahead of time, because typically what ends up happening is fights become unfair, right? It's healthy to fight, but it's unhealthy to fight in an unfair manner. So, I think tho- those are- those are three- three techniques that I know that, you know, Jill and myself, that we use when we are having our discussions.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Quick one from our longest standing sponsor, Huel. I- I can't tell you over the last... I'd say over the last, really it's been about two and a half years, it was really, um, post-pandemic, how much my health has become such a huge priority in my life. Huel has been probably the most impo- important partner in my health journey, because I've been in the boardrooms, I've been to their offices tens and tens and tens and tens of times. I've seen how they make their decisions on nutrition, and I trust it. I trust the brand to keep me nutritionally complete, and that is something that I fight for every single day in the chaos and the busyness of my life. And that's why it's su- such a wonderful thing to be able to talk to this audience about a brand and a product that is so unbelievably linked to my values and the- and the- the place I am in my life of valuing the gym, exercise, movement, my mind, my breathing, and all of those things, and most importantly, my nutrition. That is the role Huel- Huel plays. And so if you haven't already tried Huel and you've been resistant to my- my pestering, then give it a go and let me know how you get on. Quick word from one of my sponsors. Um, super excited to announce that our new sponsor for the podcast is Intel, a brand that pretty much every single person listening to this is a user of, but in some cases, you might not even know. For those that don't know, Intel is a technological powerhouse who have been driving technology, innovation, and transformation for more than 50 years. We all know that technology has never been more important than it is today, and Intel is truly shaping the future of our industry, from keeping us connected through 5G, which we use in all of our lives w- every single day, to modernizing computers, to transforming businesses through data and analytics, the list goes on and on and on. I've been particularly excited to announce the sponsorship because we've been using Intel's technology throughout this building and on this podcast for some time now, and it makes our lives so much easier in so many ways, especially as it relates to producing this show for you. So, head over to intel.co.uk and you can find out why they've become an essential piece of technology in my day-to-day routine. Let me know what you think. At some point, um, you started a YouTube channel-
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and Oprah got in touch.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's crazy.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
It's crazy. It's- it's, uh, it's crazy. But it- it is, uh, y- you know, so when I decided to launch my matchmaking business after I'd spent a year prepping, I didn't know how to launch it, and it was my wife and my best friend at the time who said, "You know, you should focus on the marketing aspect of this. You should start a YouTube channel." Now, this is 2009. So, like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Early.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Early. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Were you born in 2009?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Just about. (laughs)
- PBPaul C. Brunson
(laughs) So, you know,
- 40:47 – 49:06
Oprah reached out to you for a tv show?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
so 2009. So, YouTube isn't a big... It's a thing, but it's not as big a thing as it is right now.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
It's not known as the go-to place to market your new company. Um, but I decided to create a YouTube series called The Modern Day Matchmaker, and what I decided is I would pump all of my money into this thing, and I would... I mean, when I look around the studio, this is an impressive studio. Um, I had like 1 out of 10 of these cameras. I had like one camera, you know? But it was me spending $1,000 to $4,000 per production minute, right? So, we had a team. Y- yeah, I know, it's crazy.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wow.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
It's ridiculous. But the reason why is because I thought I had a unique point of view, and if I can just push that out into the marketplace, I could distinguish myself from the competitors. And I would put out this video every week, man, and nobody would watch it. Nobody. And- and I say this, and this is not even a joke, is every week it would get like 11 or 12 views, this video, and my mother was watching nine of those.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- PBPaul C. Brunson
You know? And so it was... No one was watching this thing, but I thought this was a way for me to, you know, for- for- for me to at least create my brand within the space. Now, it turns out that one of those 11 views was Oprah. But people say like, "Okay, how- how did Oprah find you?" You know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
The reason why Oprah was able to find me is because a year prior, I was doing pro bono matchmaking services.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Free work.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Free work. One of my clients, and I had no idea, but one of my clients was a writer for O Magazine. A year later, she's on Oprah's jet. Oprah says, "I have a concept for a new TV show. I'm looking for a fresh voice." My client, in the jet, says, "Have you heard of Paul Brunson?" Oprah says, "No, but let me see." (makes searching sounds) YouTube search. "Paul Brunson." Save. "Let me start watching." So, Oprah was watching this YouTube series. And- and, you know, when I always look at it, I say, gosh, to me, it is a powerful story because she ends up offering me a job to co-host a television show with her on her brand new network, off of this YouTube series that no one was watching but Oprah, my mother, and, like, two other people. And I say it's a powerful story about quality over quantity. You know, I think we live in a day and age where, you know, vanity metrics, in particular, are- are- are everything. You know, it's like, "I need to have this number of followers, this number of views," and I get it. To a certain extent, it is important when you're monetizing. But ultimately, the who that's watching is more important, and it was- it was through that- that, you know, that- that YouTube series that I- I got the job. And it- and working with Oprah changed my life.
- SBSteven Bartlett
There's this thing called la- like, lagging metrics, um, in KPIs in business and analytics, where there- there are metrics that show up later-
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... once you've done the input, once you've done the work. And it's- and, you know, I was thinking about that as you were speaking because you were doing- you were doing focusing on quality now. The lagging metric was that you were gonna become on Oprah Winfrey's show and she was gonna watch. But you were just planting the seeds of quality and- and, like, I'm sure that if you'd carried on doing that channel for 15 years, it would've probably had 15 million subscribers.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But- but it's- it's fun 'cause I always think about it like seeds. Even with- even what- with what we've done here, if I showed you the graph of the growth of The Diary of a CEO, it's literally ... this is no exaggeration, I posted it on my Twitter the other day, it's two years flat.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Flat, right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Now, what happens next is it goes like a v- like a vertical line up.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Wow. Wow.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you never know when or how or whatever, but those first two years when it was flat w- was when all of those seeds were being planted, and really where you're- you're learning your craft. And I think so many people, um ... it's an important for so many people because the big metrics always lag behind and things go fast then s- um, things go slow then fast.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And, uh, we sometimes can get super impatient about, "Wh- wh- why hasn't Oprah called me yet?" Or, "Why don't I have a big podcast with 10- 15 million downloads? Why don't I have that yet?" But you're doing the work now to have that-
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Of course.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... in that quiet period. And I loved what you said there about, like, the quality. Like, if you just focus on quality, which is something you know you can control, just making whatever you're doing now m- like, the best-
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you have nothing to worry about. You don't need to worry, you just need patience.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yes. Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And- and I love that when I hear that- that story 'cause 11 views and one of them's fucking Oprah is just ...
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yeah. It's- it's- it's a mind blow. It's a- it's a mind blow. And- and I think, too, to- to even add to what you're saying is I think that that's the key of having the passion because that's ... I mean, that's the reason why, like, y- y- th-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, you keep on keeping on.
- 49:06 – 55:49
What did you learn from Oprah?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
about the event in the immediate, or if she's giving you some, you know, life advice. Like, I remember the, the very first scene I shot with her was, we were in Georgia. So, we shot a show called Love Town USA. Actually did two shows with Oprah, but the first one was Love Town USA. And there's 10,000 people in this audience. They're all there to see Oprah. There's this massive light kit on stage. It's big. It's my first big event ever. I've never spoken in front of 10,000, like I've never spoken in front of 10 people, you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
10,000 people. And the director comes over and he was like, "All right, Paul, get up on stage, hit your mark, and introduce Oprah." I was thinking, "Hit my mark? What is a mark?" (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Like, what does that mean? And I'm freaking out, I'm sweating. And Oprah comes over to me, real calm, cool, puts her hand on my, on my shoulder. She's like, "All right, baby, look. This is, it's, it's real simple. You just walk on that stage, keep walking until you feel the light hit you the brightest. That's where you stay," right? And I was thinking to myself, "Is she talking about the stage? Is she talking about life?" (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right. Yeah.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Like wh- what... 'Cause that's deep, you know? But that's how she would speak. Um, and she was, uh, she, she... just, just amazing. Just, just amazing, amazing, amazing person.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why is she successful, in your assessment? Why is she Oprah, Oprah? What is it about her?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yeah. So, so I, I studied her. You know, I'm a people watcher, you know. Um, and I worked for... So, I worked for Oprah after I worked for Enver. And the similarity to me, is that when I started working for Enver, he went from multimillionaire to billionaire. And that, to me, was, was really interesting, 'cause of how few billionaires, you know, there are in, in, in the world. So, I started to journal what I learned from Enver. Then I start working for Oprah, and I noticed similarities. And what was wild to me is, here are two people who are completely different, you know? One woman, one man, one from the US, one Turkey, one married, one not, one Christian, one Muslim. It's like completely different, but yet they had these same characteristics. And for Oprah in particular, you know, I noticed, we used to go on these roadshows for the show, to sell the show to, to advertisers. And before the roadshow, she would also, she would always host a dinner. And these dinners, there would be, you know, 20, 30 people at the dinner. You'd have all types of athletes and politicians and, uh, you know, she would have her gr- her... She would bring her, some of her girls from her school in South Africa would also be at the table. It would be this potpourri, this eclectic buffet of various people. And she would sit and she would conduct these, these amazing dinners. And I realized that at these dinners, that was her education, wa- was the dinner. Like, she was being educated on what was happening in the world, what's going to happen tomorrow, right? Because she had a lot of the playmakers at the table. She was learning about different perspectives. She was teasing out her own ideas and debating them before she would take them on screen. She would do this in these intimate dinner settings. And I noticed Enver would do the same thing. Massive dinners, 20, 30 people every night, he would have these massive dinners, and he would do the same thing. They, they, they would, they would, you know, they, they... The concept is never eat alone. You know, Keith Ferrazzi has a book called Never Eat Alone, which I think is a phenomenal book. But it's about the power of socializing, and the power that you get from, from essentially strengthening your, the weak ties in your network.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Interesting.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think I'm quite bad at socializing.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Y- y- you know. Um...
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, I was gonna say, I, I'm wondering if there's like a digital equivalent, or if like n- I'm doing it right now.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yes. See, I think this, this is your extension. But so... Okay, so let's, let's even tease this out a little bit. So, Mark Granovetter, who was a Stanford professor, came up with this theory of w- of weak ties, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
So, if you take Robin Dunbar, right? Who has the Dunbar rule, we have roughly 150 friends, essentially, right? You could debate it out-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
... but on average, right? Um, if you think about your 150th friend, the weakest friends, right? The 140th friend, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Acquaintance.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Acquaintance, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah (laughs) .
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Those are where our biggest opportunities in life come. That's where deals come for a business, that's where we get introduced to spouses, right? That's where, you know, tickets to the football game come... It comes from the weakest ties, opposed to our nearest and dearest. Which you think about, you think, "God, is that even logical?" But it is. Our weakest ties drive the most opportunity in our life. But what do we do, most of us? We spend all of our time where?... with the people closest to us. But what Oprah and Enver do, and what Mark Granovetter talks about with this theory is that the key is to constantly be strengthening our weak ties, investing in those weak ties, adding new people in to our weak ties, kicking other, other people out, and that's what they're, they're doing. Those people at that table, those were not her besties, those were not her top five, right? Those were her 120th, 130th, and that's where the enormous opportunity comes in.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Interesting. So, your matchmaking business becomes, from what I read, one of the largest matchmaking companies in the United States.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How long did that take? The- the Paul C. Brunson Agency?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Oh, my God. That was 2000... So, that was 2008 to 2016, so eight years.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Who, of all the- the avatars, of the, sort of, personas, do you find struggles with being alone the most?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Oh, my... Y- you know what? Men.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- 55:49 – 1:09:06
Out of all your clients who struggles with being alone the most?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
you know. Uh, but quite honestly, wha-... Or at least from experience, remember this is 2016, slightly, you know, slightly different time, but successful men. And I wanna say succ-... Financially successful, so those who were the investment bankers, who, 45 years old, retired from investment banking, thinking about their next career, divorced twice, sitting at home alone, right? That's where the struggle, that's where it hits you. You know, when you realize, "Oh, my God. I'm 45. I- I'm- I'm... I've only lived half of my life." You know? "And here I am, alone, and I'm a dick on top of it." Right? So, that's... That was, that was the demo that was... There was a struggle.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I gotta be honest. When I asked you that question about which group of people would struggle the most with loneliness, my head bounced around. I thought, "I think he's gonna say potentially, um, younger men because of this whole incel thing where, you know..." I don't wanna get into the mass shootings and stuff, but kid-... You know, young men who have... I had a guest on this podcast, Scott Galloway, who talked about how, like, n-... 90% of the female attention, even when you think about things like Bumble, goes to, like, the top 5, 10% of men.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
T-... T-... Yes. Yes, yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then you've got this kinda... The other 40% do okay. Then you've got the bottom 50% of men that are totally just not getting... That haven't been laid for m- for more than a year. I think that's what he said. Um, so I thought maybe you'd go for them. Then I thought he's gonna say, "30-plus women-
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... because of things like biological clocks and stuff like that."
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, and this, sort of, social pressure, which I- I-... For... I've heard from guests here, that some women can feel, because of society's expectations and timelines, to, like, to hurry up and be married, so I thought you would say one of those two groups. So, to hear you say a completely different group-
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... was quite surprising.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yeah. No, I hear you. And- and- and what you just said, that's a logical... It's a logical breakout.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
But for me, and this is... My experiences dealing with those who are seeking matchmaking, you know, is that the thought is, "My time is over," you know? "My- my... The- the heyday is gone," you know? It's kinda like the- the athlete that is now retired, but want... but still desires to play, but realizes that they don't have... you know, they don't have it anymore.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But a rich forty- 40-year-old man-
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... has got options.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Has... You know what? A rich forty... Yeah. Ha-... Has options, but- but we're talking about loneliness, though.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Loneliness, yeah.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
And there's an emptiness that does come over you when you realize... You know, so a large part of loneliness, unfortunately, is through comparison, 'cause, you know, this whole idea when we compare, we despair, we despair upon ourself. So, a large part of that is, is that you look across your peers and you say, "Look at this. Now Stephen's married," you know? "He has two children," you know? And I'm... Yeah, I'm out here, I have my Ferrari, you know? But I come home to myself.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In my big house.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
In my big... in my massive house-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Yeah.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
... and there's- there's... And there's no one here with me. And you're astute enough to know that all of those people who you thought were loyal to you were actually not loyal to you, but they were just loyal to their circumstances with you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And the job, and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
The job, right. Ex- exactly. So you-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Payroll.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
So you begin to understand, "Oh, my God. They're not my friends." I- I have... I- I- I have no one. And so when you have someone to go to a matchmaker, typically they have reached the end of their line when it comes to their hope, you know? And I think that from my peers who are of that age, or I'll say of that vintage, right? Um, that it is, uh... You know, it's- it's- it's incredibly sad. It- it- it's just... It's just incredibly sad. Now, I think what women do tremendously well, or should I say better than men of that age, is they understand how to build community.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- 1:09:06 – 1:11:17
Hugging
- PBPaul C. Brunson
taught me was that in that embrace, to notice how uncomfortable the person is with you. There's a, "Okay, you're gonna let me go?" Or is, "This is odd."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Now this is not to a stranger, but this is, this is someone who you would hug, opposed to the pat is, is, is the hug. That, to me, is wild. But here's an- here's another wild one that men do. This, I learned this from Robin Dunbar also-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
... in his book Friendship, is and, and if you see two men talking to each other at a party, out on the street, they normally stand at, at like 120 degree angle. Rarely do they stand like this. Never would they stare like this, because going back to us on the Serengeti, right? This is very confrontational, right? This means we're about to kill each other. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
You know? But like this, we're safe. You know, if we cheat our bodies like this, 120 degree. And, and if you notice that, men do that all the time. Now ladies walk right up and be all-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. Grab 'em with the high five.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
I know you. Yeah. (laughs)
- PBPaul C. Brunson
How you doing, girl? You know? But men, it's like, okay, I'm gonna talk.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. You right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, um-
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yeah, yeah. Don't hug me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Yeah, yeah.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yeah. So, but, but, but, the, the, these, see, these are all things that we, we laugh and we joke about, but it suggests why we could have challenges in our intimate relationships.
- SBSteven Bartlett
One of the things I've been curious about that I have a lot of question marks around is this idea of compatibility.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And who, who we're compatible with. Are we just... You know, 'cause when we think about dating, we often think about it like we're trying to find this perfect individual that we could kind of draw on a piece of paper, that has all of these particular qualities. We think we know who we're looking for. Um, is that true? What, what do I need to know about like, h- what truly makes someone compatible? 'Cause I think once upon a time, for sure, for sure, I would've said, "I want my partner to be probably m- like me."
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Y- right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I would've said-
- PBPaul C. Brunson
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... "If I can run a huge business and we can talk about it at, in bedtime," and-
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Not, not... I don't think that's the case-
- PBPaul C. Brunson
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... anymore. (laughs)
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yeah,
- 1:11:17 – 1:17:48
The importance of compatibly
- PBPaul C. Brunson
yeah. I mean, my, my, my joke is that most men who came to us, right, they want themselves with a vagina.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- PBPaul C. Brunson
(laughs) That's pretty much-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
That's pretty much what they're looking for-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
... right? Um, so, uh, this is a topic that's, you know, I've been studying forever and there's a lot of different thoughts around it. Like, if you just think about dating apps, they spend an enormous amount of money trying to perfect the algorithm to, you know, to, the matching algorithm. It's all about that. And if you look at the success rate, so the percentage of people who are using dating apps and then end up in a committed or, committed relationship or marriage, and then stay in that for a fixed amount of time, like 10 years, it's like less than 2%. So you think, okay, so they haven't gotten it right. There's certain matchmakers that profess to have almost near 100% success rates and you say, "What do they do?" You know, I have some friends who just say, "Oh, I can just look at you and tell." And you're like, "Whatever." Like, you know? But over time, there are certain areas that I firmly believe, firmly believe determine whether or not you have strong compatibility, right? So, one, we've already talked about attachment style.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
I think attachment style, incredibly important. We've talked about values.Values, incredibly important. That's the rulebook to life, right? Another part of it is your ability to communicate. So, there's this theory called decide versus slide, right? It's a theory that a lot of, uh, you know, you have, you have people like, uh, John Cotton is behind this. But you have people in the States who have looked at when you're with your partner, can you make a decision together on anything? Let's say you're with your partner and you decide, okay, we're going on vacation. Can you actually make decisions on where you're going without killing each other? Like, can you decide what you're going to eat without killing each other? Like, can you actually make collaborative decisions? That is deciding. Versus sliding. What a lot of relationships, what a lot of couples do is they say, "Okay, no, you, you decide that. You, you pick where we're going to go. I'll decide what we're going to do." Right? It's a slide. It's not a collaborative. So, when you were, uh, dating, when you're engaged, it's very important to begin to look at are you making decisions together? Do you have the ability to make decisions together, right? Deciding versus sliding. Very important. Another one that's touchy for a lot of people, but it is what it is, is, you know, do you have physical attraction? There's, there's a massive debate. I, I don't understand why there's still a debate over this, is that every bit of science suggests to us that if you have zero, I'm talking about zero physical attraction, it's going nowhere. Like, it's going nowhere. But if you have minimal physical attraction, it doesn't mean rip the clothes off energy, but if you have minimal physical attraction, then that could build. 'Cause you could be, you know, you could be sapiosexual where it's the intellect that drives you. But you still have to have a minimal level of physical attraction. And then what we see is that over time, attraction can definitely grow, but it needs to start somewhere. So, you think about physical attraction, you think about the ability to make decisions, compatibility in values, also attachment style. These become, I think, the foundational pieces to having a, a, a compatible relationship. But then there's this small little piece that I wanna throw out, and this is some studies that have been done in the US that I find to be fascinating is the marriage rate, you know, in the UK as well, it, it, it hovers, you know, between let's say 35 and 50% depending on who, who you're talking to. Or should I say the divorce rate does. 35 to 50%. So, the idea is there that almost half of people who, who, who get together end up getting a divorce, on average. Now, if you were to just take out couples who have been engaged for two years, what do you think that does to the divorce rate? So, they've been en- engaged for two years and then they get married.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Uh, I think the divorce rate goes down.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Exactly. It goes down dramatically. Some people say it goes down to 20, 20, 22%, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Chance of getting divorced if you've been, if you had a long engagement?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yes. Now, why would that be? The reason why is because you're able to test out all of these theories. You're able to see your partner in the most adverse circumstance and see do they still show up as, as-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, so true.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
... yeah, can they still make a decision with me (laughs) , you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Or do they emotionally shut down and, and, and they go away? So then when you look at why, or the couples where you see divorce being prevalent, it's in couples in one of two categories. One, they've known each other for a year or less, right? It's quick. Or when I say know each other, they've been in a committed relationship for a year or less. Or, they've been in a committed relationship for like 10 years and it's like basically, you know, it was an ultimatum (laughs) -
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- PBPaul C. Brunson
... and that's the reason why, why, why they were married. So, the two years of engagement I think is incredibly important because it allows you to test out these compatibility metrics.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Two things there. So, the first one I wanted to just jump back to 'cause I found it really interesting and it's something I've thought about a lot because of some of my friends-
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... in my circle, is can you be, 'cause you talked about physical attraction, can you be physically attracted to somebody but then not have sexual attraction?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Ah, okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I say this because I remember in a past relationship I was physically attracted to her, but sexually I just, it just didn't work.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that's why that relationship ended. She was this beautiful, beautiful girl. Her, her br- like, her mind, her intellect, she was super smart, she was super funny, she was just everything. I think there was a point before we went
- 1:17:48 – 1:23:12
Sex
- SBSteven Bartlett
to have sex-
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... that I thought, "This is it."
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
"This is the one." We then went to have sex and I r- uh, I've never said this before, I remember getting up and going over to my phone and, like, afterwards, like, and saying to one of my best mates, I just went, "I don't think I can ever see her again."
- PBPaul C. Brunson
See, I, I wonder how much of this, though, plays into t- t- to foreplay. Really, 'cause have you heard, have you heard about, uh, Erotic Blueprint?
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've heard about it.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think I had it on that Goop show.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Okay. Yeah, yeah. It was, it was on Goop too.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, really?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, I watched that. Yeah.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
S- so, you know, so... And, and I, I buy into that theory which, you know, the overall premise is, is that, you know, we all, um, we, we all become sexually stimulated-... in different ways.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Right? And the, the thought is that men are just ready all the time, like, you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
J- yeah. F-
- PBPaul C. Brunson
It's like, "We're re-" Like, "We're just ready." You know? Like, "Come on in the room."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Like, "We're just ready." But that's not the case. You know, some of us, it's about, you know, contextual, you know? Some of us... And this is men and women, right? It's, s- some of it, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's romantic, you know? Some is you, you need something that t- people would call bizarre, you know, going on.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Kink.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Kink, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Some BDSM, you know, going on.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- PBPaul C. Brunson
So, so that's why I, I wonder how much of that was about sexual stimulation in that situation versus you not being sexually attracted to the person. So, I wish we could almost go back-
- SBSteven Bartlett
I know. (laughs)
- PBPaul C. Brunson
... and I, and I could be, and I could be your sexual surrogate-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Unfortunately, she's-
- PBPaul C. Brunson
... in, in the room.
- 1:23:12 – 1:28:22
Do we know what we want?
- PBPaul C. Brunson
well, well, what is your type?" And typically, people will describe someone who's very much like themselves, very much like themselves, in so many of these categories. And so, we, we are horrendously bad at not only identifying what works well with us but then making the selection. And, on top of that, most women don't make the selection. It's typically the man who makes the selection. And this is where I say that what I like, what I'm seeing now is more women are, are bi- are, are consciously choosing who and what they want in their relationship, opposed to being the ones who are always selected.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why does that happen? Why are m- why are women not choosing? Is it because... You know, can we, 'cause-
- PBPaul C. Brunson
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's because of, you know, the craziness of, of, of the world and how we've evolved. You know, if you, if you think about, it was the pill that was one of the first liberation points for women when it came to d- when it came to dating. I mean, and you think about, it's, that's not that long ago. We're talking about the '60s, we're talking about the '70s, really when the, wh- when the, when the pill became en vogue, you know, if you will, at least i- in the United States. And what that allowed was for women to finally have s- a little bit of choice-... when it came to dating. Before that, it was, m- it was virtually m- men making the selection, making the choice. "You're mine, or you're pregnant, so you're definitely mine." And that was it. And then you saw a little bit of a liberation come from the pill, which was incredible. But then also, what's great now is the dating apps. I know the dating apps get a lotta, a lotta stick, for whatever reasons. And yes, we should always hold dating apps accountable. But what's beautiful is that you do have dating apps where you have given women a lot more choice and control in the dating experience, which is important. And even when you look at the studies and you look at the dating app ecosystems that are r- p- that are, uh, led by women, they're safer, they're less crude, you know, the, the list goes on and on.
Episode duration: 1:53:27
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