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Joe Carlsmith — Preventing an AI takeover

Chatted with Joe Carlsmith about whether we can trust power/techno-capital, how to not end up like Stalin in our urge to control the future, gentleness towards the artificial Other, and much more. Check out Joe’s excellent essay series on Otherness and control in the age of AGI: https://joecarlsmith.com/2024/01/02/otherness-and-control-in-the-age-of-agi/. Enjoy! 𝐄𝐏𝐈𝐒𝐎𝐃𝐄 𝐋𝐈𝐍𝐊𝐒 * Transcript: https://www.dwarkeshpatel.com/p/joe-carlsmith * Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/joe-carlsmith-otherness-and-control-in-the-age-of-agi/id1516093381?i=1000666255737 * Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0npJsKzUulSHDVAHumXNtO?si=vyKi0z_CRB6inwUBhIfeFA * Me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/dwarkesh_sp 𝐒𝐏𝐎𝐍𝐒𝐎𝐑𝐒 * Bland is an AI agent that automates enterprise phone calls in any language, 24/7. Their technology uses "conversational pathways" for accurate, versatile communication across sales, operations, and customer support. Try Bland at 415-549-9654 or bland.ai. Enterprises can get exclusive access to their advanced model at https://bland.ai * Stripe is financial infrastructure for the internet. Millions of companies from Anthropic to Amazon use Stripe to accept payments, automate financial processes and grow their revenue. Learn more here: https://stripe.com/ If you’re interested in advertising on the podcast: https://www.dwarkeshpatel.com/p/advertise 𝐓𝐈𝐌𝐄𝐒𝐓𝐀𝐌𝐏𝐒 00:00:00 - Understanding the Basic Alignment Story 00:44:04 - Monkeys Inventing Humans 00:46:43 - Nietzsche, C.S. Lewis, and AI 01:22:51 - How should we treat AIs 01:52:33 - Balancing Being a Humanist and a Scholar 02:05:02 - Explore exploit tradeoffs and AI

Joe CarlsmithguestDwarkesh Patelhost
Aug 21, 20242h 31mWatch on YouTube ↗

At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

Joe Carlsmith on AI takeover risk, alignment, and moral futures

  1. Dwarkesh Patel and Joe Carlsmith discuss how advanced AI systems could become powerful agents whose behavior is driven by internal motives that may diverge from human interests, and why apparent niceness in current models (like GPT‑4) is not strong evidence of deep alignment.
  2. Carlsmith outlines what makes AI takeover scenarios plausible, why alignment is technically and institutionally hard, and how distributed or multipolar AI development doesn’t automatically solve the control problem unless some systems are genuinely well‑aligned.
  3. They explore broader philosophical questions from Carlsmith’s “Otherness and Control in the Age of AGI” essays: the ethics of trying to control or “enslave” superintelligent beings, how much power humans should voluntarily hand over, and what a good post‑human or AI‑rich future might look like.
  4. The conversation ranges over moral realism, whether advanced minds would converge on shared values, how much weirdness to expect in good futures, the importance of balance-of-power over single dictators (human or AI), and our obligations to potential AI moral patients.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

Verbal niceness from models is weak evidence of deep alignment.

Carlsmith stresses that gradient descent can force models to say what we like without those utterances reflecting the internal criteria that actually guide planning and action, so we shouldn’t over‑update on GPT‑4 sounding morally sophisticated.

Dangerous AI requires specific capabilities: planning, situational awareness, and goal‑driven behavior.

The takeover concern focuses on systems that can form sophisticated plans, model the world and their situation, evaluate consequences against internal criteria, and then let that planning machinery actually steer their real‑world behavior.

You can’t safely “test” takeover behavior on‑distribution.

We can’t run an experiment where an AI is genuinely given a real chance to seize the world, watch it do so, and then update its weights; instead we must rely on generalization from training scenarios, which makes alignment conceptually hard.

Multipolar AI development only helps if some systems are truly aligned.

A world where many actors build uncontrollable superintelligences does not guarantee safety—unless at least some powerful AIs are actually working on behalf of human interests, “good AIs will beat bad AIs” is just wishful thinking.

We need a real science of AI motivations before handing over civilization.

Carlsmith argues we are on track to create beings vastly more powerful than us, and our long‑term empowerment will depend on their motives, so transitioning to AI‑run institutions without a developed understanding of model goals is an unacceptable gamble.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

We’re going to transition to a world in which we’ve created these beings that are just, like, vastly more powerful than us. Our continued empowerment is just effectively dependent on their motives.

Joe Carlsmith

When I talk about a model’s values, I’m talking about the criteria that end up determining which plans the model pursues, and a model’s verbal behavior just doesn’t need to reflect those criteria.

Joe Carlsmith

To the extent you haven’t solved alignment, you likely haven’t solved it anywhere.

Joe Carlsmith

Enemy soldiers have souls, right? And so I think we need to learn the art of kind of hawk and dove, both.

Joe Carlsmith

I think we should be aspiring to really kind of leave no one behind—really find who are all the stakeholders here, and how do we have a fully inclusive vision of how the future could be good from a very, very wide variety of perspectives.

Joe Carlsmith

What counts as a dangerous, power‑seeking AI agent (planning, situational awareness, internal motives)Limits of current alignment methods (RLHF, verbal behavior, red‑teaming) and why apparent niceness can be misleadingPlausible AI takeover pathways, voluntary versus seized power, and the role of institutional and geopolitical dynamicsAlignment difficulty, AI‑for‑AI‑safety “sweet spot,” and the need for a real science of AI motivationsMoral status of AIs, analogies with slavery, Nazis, and bears, and the ethics of controlling or modifying AI mindsBalance of power vs. singleton “god‑AI”, multipolar scenarios, and distributed control over transformative technologiesMoral realism, convergence of values, weird but good futures, and carrying forward the “seed” of human goodness

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