Skip to content
Dwarkesh PodcastDwarkesh Podcast

Sarah Paine — The war for India (lecture & interview)

How the rivalry between China and India reshaped Asia forever. I’m thrilled to launch a trilogy of episodes: a lecture series by Professor Sarah Paine of the Naval War College, each followed by a deep Q&A. In this first episode, Prof Paine talks about key decisions by Khrushchev, Mao, Nehru, Bhutto, & Lyndon Johnson that shaped the whole dynamic of South Asia today. This is followed by a Q&A with me. Come for the spy bases, shoestring nukes, and insight about how great power politics impacts every region. Huge thanks to Substack for hosting this! 𝐄𝐏𝐈𝐒𝐎𝐃𝐄 𝐋𝐈𝐍𝐊𝐒 * Transcript: https://open.substack.com/pub/dwarkesh/p/sarah-paine-india * Apple Podcasts: http://apple.co/3RFuS7b * Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/6beCTbPFOXKXNYPAsU7vQa 𝐒𝐏𝐎𝐍𝐒𝐎𝐑𝐒 * Today’s episode is brought to you by Scale AI. Scale partners with the U.S. government to fuel America’s AI advantage through their data foundry. The Air Force, Army, Defense Innovation Unit, and Chief Digital and Artificial Intelligence Office all trust Scale to equip their teams with AI-ready data and the technology to build powerful applications. Scale recently introduced Defense Llama, Scale's latest solution available for military personnel. With Defense Llama, military personnel can harness the power of AI to plan military or intelligence operations and understand adversary vulnerabilities. If you’re interested in learning more on how Scale powers frontier AI capabilities, go to https://scale.com/dwarkesh To sponsor future episodes, go to: https://www.dwarkeshpatel.com/p/advertise 𝐒𝐀𝐑𝐀𝐇'𝐒 𝐁𝐎𝐎𝐊𝐒 * "The Wars for Asia, 1911–1949" https://www.amazon.com/Wars-Asia-1911-1949-S-Paine/dp/1107697476 * "The Japanese Empire: Grand Strategy from the Meiji Restoration to the Pacific War" https://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Empire-Strategy-Restoration-Pacific/dp/1107676169 𝐓𝐈𝐌𝐄𝐒𝐓𝐀𝐌𝐏𝐒 00:00:00 - Lecture intro 00:02:43 - Mao at war, 1949-51 00:06:12 - Pactomania and Sino-Soviet conflicts 00:15:14 - The Sino-Indian War 00:20:32 - Soviet peace in India-Pakistan 00:22:32 - US Aid and Alliances 00:26:46 - The difference with WWII 00:30:41 - The geopolitical map in 1904 00:35:42 - The US alienates Indira Gandhi 00:43:30 - Instruments of US power 00:54:13 - Carrier battle groups 01:03:13 - Q&A begins 01:05:03 - The appeal of the USSR 01:10:08 - The last communist premier 01:16:14 - India and China’s lost opportunity 01:32:51 - Soviet proxies in foreign politics 01:58:36 - Bismark’s cunning 02:03:37 - Training US officers 02:07:35 - Cruelty in Russian history

Sarah PaineguestDwarkesh Patelhost
Jan 16, 20252h 13mWatch on YouTube ↗

At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

How Great Powers Played Cutthroat Billiards Over India and Pakistan

  1. Sarah Paine explains how the U.S., USSR, and China tried to manipulate India and Pakistan during the Cold War, often misreading local rivalries and creating long‑term blowback. She shows how two key decisions—China’s conquest of Tibet and America’s alliance with Pakistan—reshaped South Asian geopolitics and poisoned U.S.–India relations for decades. The lecture introduces a framework of “primary adversaries,” limited vs. unlimited war aims, and “frozen conflicts” to understand why alliances formed as they did and why some conflicts never end. In the interview, Paine extends these lessons to today’s China–Russia relationship, nuclear proliferation, and the challenges of U.S. grand strategy and intervention.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

Always map primary adversaries before intervening in a region.

Paine argues you must identify who each state’s main enemy is, and in which theater, before you “leave the parking lot”; the U.S. ignored that India and Pakistan saw each other—not the Soviets—as primary foes and thus constantly triggered backlash from both.

Limited wars can have unlimited long‑term consequences.

The Sino‑Indian War and Bangladesh War were short, limited conflicts in aims, but they permanently militarized India, drove Indo‑Soviet alignment, spurred Indo‑Pakistani nuclearization, and entrenched enduring hostilities.

Arming allies in local rivalries often backfires strategically.

U.S. military aid to Pakistan pushed India toward the USSR and China toward Pakistan; later U.S. funding to Pakistan’s ISI helped fuel jihadist groups and Kashmir insurgency, showing how short‑term security gains can create severe long‑term costs.

Frozen conflicts are cheap for outside powers, disastrous for locals.

By covertly funding insurgencies (Tibet, Naga/Mizo movements, Kashmir), great powers pin adversaries down without bearing costs themselves, while local populations pay in lost growth, instability, and deepened hatred.

Humanitarian crises are often subordinated to great‑power strategy.

In 1971, Washington downplayed Pakistan’s atrocities in East Pakistan to preserve its secret opening to China; Paine frames this as a brutal but deliberate choice to prioritize winning the Cold War over stopping a genocide.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

Common enemies cannot be conjured. Check out the alignments before you leave the parking lot.

Sarah Paine

What if, instead of playing this game this way, China and India teamed up? I would suspect we would be in a completely very different world order now.

Sarah Paine

The Cold War is a misnomer because the bloodshed in the Third World was horrendous.

Sarah Paine

Pay attention to what dictators say because they’ve got to communicate at some level to their own populations. They quite often tell you exactly what they want to do.

Sarah Paine

It’s not a question of whether the Xi‑Putin bromance is going to end, it’s when.

Sarah Paine

China’s conquest of Tibet, Sino‑Indian War (1962), and territorial disputesU.S. “pactomania,” alliance with Pakistan, and long‑term damage to U.S.–India tiesSino‑Soviet split, border clashes, and the reshuffling of Cold War alignmentsIndia–Pakistan wars (1965, 1971, Kargil), Bangladesh’s creation, and nuclear proliferationConcepts of primary adversaries, limited vs. unlimited war, and frozen conflictsThe strategic value and costs of interventions, aid, insurgency sponsorship, and sanctionsImplications for today: China–Russia dynamics, U.S.–India partnership, and a ‘second Cold War’

High quality AI-generated summary created from speaker-labeled transcript.

Get more out of YouTube videos.

High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.

Add to Chrome