CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 2:31
Jordan's 1995 Loss and the Two Tim Grover Books
David Senra opens with Tim Grover's account of Jordan after the 1995 playoff loss to Orlando and his vow that it wouldn't happen again. He introduces Grover's two books, Relentless and Winning, and says the episode will focus on stories and mentality rather than biography.
- •Grover sat with Jordan in the arena until 3 AM after the 1995 elimination
- •Jordan told Orlando to enjoy the win, then led the Bulls to 72 wins the next season
- •Grover trained Jordan for 15 years and also trained Kobe
- •Biography episodes on Jordan are 212 and 213; Kobe's are 272 and 273
- 2:31 – 4:33
Why Relentless Doesn't Tell You What to Do
Senra reads Grover's response to the criticism that Relentless gives no checklist, and ties it to the Mozart story. He then discusses the word 'relentless' and Jeff Bezos.
- •Grover says you must stop waiting to be told what to do
- •The book offers insight into the mentality of those who trust their instincts
- •Mozart's reply: he didn't go around asking people how to do it
- •Bezos owns relentless.com, which forwards to Amazon
- 4:33 – 9:06
The Dark Side: Raising Everyone to Your Level
Senra covers the less pretty side of Jordan and Kobe's personalities and their strategy of making others rise to their level. He lists traits Grover says these elite performers share, including taking responsibility for everything.
- •Grover says the strategy is to make everyone else get on your level
- •Jordan in The Last Dance on his standards for teammates
- •Shared traits: driven, expect to succeed, rarely celebrate
- •Kobe tells A-Rod he has issues with those who don't demand excellence of themselves
- 9:06 – 14:30
Never Stop Working, Not Chasing Money, and Mental Dominance
Senra explains why Jordan and Kobe never stop working, using Jordan's emotional titles as examples. He moves to their control of their minds, presence in the moment, and reframing of nerves.
- •Jordan's tears after his first title and after the first title following his father's murder
- •They are driven by the rush of success, not money
- •Jordan: mental dominance makes you unstoppable
- •Kobe: the greatest fear we face is ourselves
- •Butterflies are made to fly in the same direction
- 14:30 – 18:41
Keep It Simple: Excellence at One Thing
Grover's point that people overcomplicate and dabble is illustrated by Spinks and Kobe 'giving out numbers.' Senra connects it to Naval, the FBI sharpshooter story, and Jordan's business success.
- •Leon Spinks: 'I knock motherfuckers out'
- •Kobe says he gives out numbers
- •Naval on being at the extreme of your craft
- •The FBI sniper who practices alone on a 400-yard target
- •Jordan's game was his best endorsement
- 18:41 – 24:31
Fundamentals, Learning, Intuition, and Self-Imposed Pressure
Senra covers Kobe's call to Jordan about teaching his daughter basics, and how both kept learning by studying game film. He then turns to intuition and the pressure they placed on themselves, including trash talk.
- •Jordan played baseball at 12, a point Kobe tells over-trained kids' parents to consider
- •Kobe's closet of Jordan VHS tapes
- •Intuition quotes from Oprah and Steve Jobs
- •Trash talk as a way to raise the pressure on himself
- •Kobe: fans' expectations will never be higher than his own
- 24:31 – 30:22
Demanding Excellence from Teammates and Standing Up to Jordan
Senra reads stories of Jordan's intensity with teammates, including flipping Scott Burrell's treatment table. He discusses why the dark side isn't a prerequisite, but that backing down from such personalities is the worst response, as shown by Steve Kerr.
- •Jordan flips over the treatment table: 'Get on my level or get the hell out of my way'
- •Rockefeller got results without raising his voice
- •Steve Kerr was punched, then earned Jordan's trust
- •Jordan's teammates and others recognised his talent early
- 30:22 – 35:54
Play Him at Center: Talent, Pain, and Relentless Work
Senra tells the Bobby Knight story about the 1984 draft and links it to Rockefeller's hiring and Jobs on B players. He then covers pain tolerance, the early-morning workouts, and Jordan's Labor Day shutdown.
- •Bobby Knight: 'Then play him at center'
- •Rockefeller hired talent as found, not as needed
- •Excellence as the capacity to take pain
- •Jordan asked 'Five, six, or seven?' after every game
- •Kobe went to the gym on draft day
- •Jordan shut everything down for training by Labor Day
- 35:54 – 37:29
Trusting Themselves and Kobe's Single Focus
Senra covers Grover's observation that Jordan and Kobe trust themselves above others and see trusting others as giving up control. He ends the Relentless portion with Grover's description of Kobe's one focus.
- •'In Mike, he trusted. All others were open to question.'
- •Trusting others means giving up control
- •Kobe's life revolves entirely around excellence
- •Grover and Kobe shared an addiction to winning
- 37:29 – 50:23
Competitive Stories: Jordan, Kobe, Bird and Others
Senra shares collected stories about Jordan's competitiveness, including Stephen Jackson's story, the Ja Morant response, and the 40-point bet. He also covers Kobe's relationship with Jordan and Larry Bird's trash talk.
- •Jordan in his 50s stripped players of Jordan gear and beat starters with the bench
- •Jordan's reply to Ja Morant: 'Show me what you can do, little boy'
- •Kobe and Jordan's early exchange where Kobe didn't back down
- •Eddie Johnson's stories about Jordan's 40-point bet and Larry Bird
- •Jordan on evaluating opponents and finding motivation
- 50:23 – 55:43
Winning: Defining Winning and the Cost of It
Senra turns to Winning, where Grover asked clients to describe winning in one word. He covers Kobe's answer 'Everything' and Jordan's Last Dance quote about pulling teammates along, then discusses how Kobe learned from Jordan.
- •Kobe described winning as 'Everything'
- •Jordan: he never asked teammates to do what he wouldn't do
- •Grover: winning can be glorious but can also mess you up
- •Everyone wanted to be like Mike; Mike only wanted to be himself
- •Jordan's strict game-day routine and chest pass warm-up
- 55:43 – 1:02:07
Self-Belief and Mind Over Feelings
Senra covers Jordan and Kobe's contrasting talent and work ethic, and the call with Sam Bowie. He ties their self-belief to Sam Walton and their priority on work over feelings to the Steve Jobs 'vain' story.
- •Jordan was more talented; Kobe worked harder and wanted to learn from Jordan
- •Jordan knew when to stop and sleep; Kobe didn't
- •'Sam, are you coming or not?'
- •Sam Walton on never thinking he might lose
- •Jobs calling Jony Ive 'vain'; Grover: 'Their minds were stronger than their feelings'
- 1:02:07 – 1:05:09
No Riding the Fence: Loyalty and Keeping Up with Jordan
Senra tells stories of Jordan's all-in approach to loyalty and standards, from Grover's Converse shoes to cutting up a friend's Puma gear. He includes the 'keep up' drive to the airport and the pickup game collapse.
- •Jordan's reaction to Grover's Converse shoes
- •Fred Whitfield's story of Jordan cutting up Puma clothes
- •Keeping up was non-negotiable, as in the drive to the airport
- •'Go get a sub. I got a game to win.'
- 1:05:09 – 1:12:13
Simplicity, Never Complacent, and Closing Reflections
Senra links Jordan and Kobe's focus on simplicity to Steve Jobs, then covers their refusal to be complacent and their reinvestment in training and education. He closes with Grover's lesson about time and Jordan's Last Dance 'little match' quote.
- •Stop adding, start deleting
- •Both were incapable of complacency
- •Training staff as business partners, not luxuries
- •Kobe: have self-doubt but don't capitulate to it
- •The biggest mistake is thinking we have time
- 1:12:13 – 1:23:30
Founders Notes and Closing Announcements
After the episode ends, Senra covers Founders merch and the YouTube uploads. He then promotes Founders Notes, which gives access to his highlights and planned search features, and teases the next book.
- •Founders merch is available
- •Older episodes are on YouTube with transcripts
- •Founders Notes gives access to his highlights and notes
- •Planned features include transcript search and an AI search tool
- •A hint about the next book's subject
