CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 2:37
Hiring the Best: Bezos, Jobs and the Dynamic Range of Talent
David Senra opens by linking Jeff Bezos' focus on hiring to a Steve Jobs quote about the gap between average and best people. Jobs says the best person in his field can accomplish 50 or 100 times what an average person can, so you should go after the cream of the cream.
- •Bezos' first shareholder letter called a high hiring bar the single most important element of Amazon's success
- •Jobs says that in most things the gap between average and best is at most two to one
- •In his field, Jobs saw the best person accomplishing 50 or 100 times more than an average one
- •Jobs added that a small team of A+ players can run circles around a giant team of B and C players
- 2:37 – 5:35
The 1985 Playboy Interview: Setting the Scene
Senra introduces the 1985 Playboy interview with 29-year-old Jobs and reads its introduction. It covers Apple's rapid rise, Jobs' wealth, and the party scene in which he preferred tutoring a boy on the Mac to talking with famous artists.
- •Apple joined the Fortune 500 in five years, faster than any other company
- •Jobs was one of only seven on the Forbes list of 100 who made their fortunes on their own
- •The introduction describes him preaching computers as common as kitchen appliances
- •He said the boy asks 'What can I do with it?' while older people ask 'What is it?'
- 5:35 – 7:44
Missionaries, Salesmanship and Historical Context
Senra ties the introduction to themes from other founders: Bezos' missionary-versus-mercenary test, Ken Griffin's view that you're always selling, and James Dyson's interest in history. He argues great founders place their inventions in historical context.
- •Bezos looks at whether a leader is a missionary or a mercenary, and missionaries usually make more money
- •Ken Griffin says someone has to sell and you have to get over disliking it
- •Great founders tend to be great salespeople
- •James Dyson wrote The History of Great Inventions
- 7:44 – 9:39
Money Is Humorous: The Information Revolution
Jobs laughs off losing $250 million and says money is not the most valuable thing that has happened to him. He then frames the computer as the next revolution, one of free intellectual energy that will dwarf the petrochemical revolution.
- •Jobs jokes about losing $250 million in one year and won't let money run his life
- •He is struck that students are most in awe of his being a millionaire
- •He compares the information revolution to the petrochemical revolution
- •The Macintosh takes less power than a hundred-watt light bulb yet can save hours a day
- 9:39 – 13:42
The Computer as the Ultimate Tool: Telegraph vs. Telephone
Jobs calls the computer the most versatile tool humans have built and says no one can predict where it will go. He uses Alexander Graham Bell and the telegraph-to-telephone shift to argue that tools must be easy to use, and Senra links this to simplicity throughout Jobs' career.
- •A computer can be a writing tool, communications center, calculator, planner, filer and artistic instrument by changing software
- •Nobody could have listed all the uses of the telephone in Bell's day
- •The telegraph took about forty hours to learn, while the telephone used skills people already had
- •Jobs says WordStar's manual is 400 pages, and writing a novel shouldn't require reading one
- 13:42 – 17:12
Marketing as Education and Building for Yourselves
The interviewer says he was warned that Jobs would snow him, and Jobs says that good PR educates and the products speak for themselves. Senra connects this to Akio Morita and Edwin Land. Jobs then explains that the Mac team built for themselves, with craftsmanship carried all the way through, and contrasts this with the motives behind IBM's PC jr.
- •Jobs says ad campaigns are necessary for competition and you can't con people in this business
- •Senra compares this to Akio Morita's view of marketing as education and his $2 million ultimatum
- •The Mac team built the product for themselves rather than doing market research
- •The carpenter analogy: use beautiful wood on the back of the drawers even if no one sees it
- •Jobs says the PC jr. makers were motivated by money, unlike the Mac group
- 17:12 – 19:43
Mental Grooves and the Danger of Corporate Calcification
Jobs says thoughts form patterns like grooves in a record that most people never leave. Senra connects this to James Dyson's questioning mindset, and Jobs warns that large companies add layers of management and lose their best people, whereas Apple is built on refugees from other companies.
- •Few people etch grooves other than a specific way of looking at things
- •Dyson constantly asks how things work and how they could work better
- •Big companies insert layers of middle management and lose their passion for products
- •Apple is described as an Ellis Island company built on troublemakers from other companies
- 19:43 – 22:23
Edwin Land, Troublemakers and Putting a Dent in the Universe
Jobs praises Edwin Land as a brilliant troublemaker who saw the intersection of art, science and business, and who was pushed out of his own company. He describes Apple attracting people who want to make a dent in the universe and contribute something back to humanity's shared pool.
- •Jobs says it was one of the dumbest things he'd heard that Land was asked to leave Polaroid
- •Senra calls Land the patron saint of Founders Podcast
- •Apple attracts people who don't want to wait years for someone to take a risk on them
- •Jobs says we rarely get a chance to put something back into the pool of human knowledge
- •Senra shares a quote about a human life being devoted to something
- 22:23 – 26:57
Competing with IBM: Standards, Missionaries and Appliances
Asked how Apple will beat IBM, Jobs talks about the 'Fortune 5 million' of small businesses seen as collections of people. He rejects the argument for a single standard and calls Apple a team of missionaries aiming to put computers in the hands of tens of millions of people.
- •Jobs targets the 14 million small businesses rather than just the Fortune 500
- •He says insisting on one standard would freeze technology, like standardizing the 1920 automobile
- •He calls IBM a company of number crunchers and Apple a team of missionaries
- •He predicted no more billion-dollar computer companies from garages, which Senra notes Michael Dell contradicted
- •The Mac may be the last chance for a clean break, and Senra points to the Steve Jobs Archive and his Aspen talk
- 26:57 – 29:19
Silicon Valley Roots and Early Computer Encounters
Jobs describes his machinist father, growing up in Palo Alto, and the history of Hewlett-Packard, the transistor and Shockley Labs. He recounts seeing his first computer at HP at about age 12 and calling Bill Hewlett for parts, which led to a summer job.
- •His father was a machinist who gave him things to take apart and reassemble
- •He compares Shockley's physicists spinning off companies to seeds scattering from a blown flower
- •A neighbor, Larry Lang, introduced him to HP's Tuesday night computer sessions
- •He phoned Bill Hewlett at 12 and got parts and a summer job
- 29:19 – 32:51
Broad Experiences, Wozniak and the Birth of Apple
Jobs says a mix of experiences in his youth, including literature and Stanford classes, shaped him, a point Senra ties to his criticism of Bill Gates. He then describes the Homebrew Computer Club, the Altair, and building the Apple 1 with Wozniak, selling about 150 and making around $95,000.
- •Jobs credited broad life experiences with better product sense, contrasting Gates' narrower life, according to Senra
- •The Altair made it possible for the first time to own a computer
- •He and Wozniak laid out the Apple 1 circuit board themselves
- •A computer store owner said he could sell them if they could make them
- •In a later interview Jobs said he never found anyone who said no when he asked for help
- 32:51 – 34:18
Explosive Growth and Not Knowing How Big It Would Get
Jobs says neither he nor Wozniak knew the venture would go anywhere, then recites Apple's sales growth from $200,000 to a projected $1.5 billion. Senra says founders generally did not know how big their businesses would get.
- •Neither founder knew how to run a company, raise money, recruit or sell
- •Revenue went from $200,000 in 1976 to $985 million last year
- •Senra says the answer to whether founders knew how big things would get is usually no
- •Jobs says selling a million computers a year was only a thought until it happened
- 34:18 – 37:23
Computers as Guides, Ten Lifetimes at Apple, and Looking Ahead
Jobs predicts computers moving from servants to guides or agents that anticipate needs, and Senra notes such ideas will likely come from outsiders. Jobs says his ten years at Apple felt like ten lifetimes, and that he expects the thread of his life and Apple to weave in and out, with him always coming back.
- •Jobs predicts computers will shift from servant to guide or agent
- •Established companies struggle to nurture small, fragile new ideas
- •A year at Apple felt like a lifetime to Jobs
- •Senra notes Jobs had only about 25 years left
- •Jobs expects to always return to Apple
- 37:23 – 40:46
Closing Notes and Founders Notes with Sage
Senra closes by pointing listeners to his highlights and other rare interview episodes. He then links an Aristotle quote from Jobs about capturing underlying principles to Founders Notes and its AI assistant Sage.
- •Senra will share his highlights in the show notes at founderspodcast.com
- •He recommends episodes on rare Bezos and Bernard Arnault interviews
- •Jobs imagined capturing an Aristotle's worldview so people could ask questions
- •Founders Notes is a searchable database of Senra's notes, highlights and transcripts
- •Sage is an AI assistant built on top of that database
