A Different Take on Screen Time

Dr. Becky 0:00 This week, I'm joined by Ash Brandon. Ash is an educator, a researcher, and a former middle school teacher who's on a mission to help families rethink screen time. You might know Ash from Instagram as The Gamer Educator, where they share practical, compassionate tools to help parents set boundaries without shame or power struggles. And exciting news, Ash's brand-new book, Power On, hits bookstores everywhere on August 26th. This conversation really stuck with me and gave me so much insight into some of my own triggers around my own kids' screen time. That's one of the things Ash and I talk about, and I can't wait for you to hear this conversation because I know you will also learn something new, have a reframe for how you think about screen time, and also feel empowered to deal with screen time with your kids in a way that feels good instead of ridden with guilt. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this. Hi, Ash.

Ash Brandon 0:59 Hi.

Dr. Becky 1:00 I'm so excited to have you here.

Ash Brandon 1:01 I am so thrilled to be here. Thank you so much.

Dr. Becky 1:04 Okay, we're gonna talk about so many different things, screen time, and misconceptions, and reframes. I know you love all those things. I do, too. But I'm just thinking about the time of year, and I feel like I hear from parents in this kind of summer to fall transition all the time, just like, "I feel like I had a lot of screen time over the summer. Feel like it's time to tighten up." Just in this moment of time when I think that thought is in so many parents' heads, like, where do you go from there in terms of even how parents are thinking about it, tightening up, what that means, summer to fall, screen time in general this time? Tell me your thoughts.

Ash Brandon 1:38 Yeah, I think summer is that, like, kind of wonderful time where we can get more relaxed and flexible, and then we see sort of the, like, the coming reality of, oh yeah, and then we have to go back to the school year and all the things that that entails. And I, they feel like a lot of caregivers want to, you know, prepare so that we are setting ourselves up for success. Um, and when it comes to things like technology, I think it is helpful sometimes to think about, well, what maybe was or wasn't working for us before.

Dr. Becky 2:13 Mm.

Ash Brandon 2:13 Or what are some things that maybe came up over the summer where we've relaxed a bit? Maybe there's some things with that that actually were kind of nice.

Dr. Becky 2:20 Mm.

Ash Brandon 2:20 Maybe felt kind of good. Maybe we got in a routine of having a family movie night or, you know, eating dinner on the couch, and we picked a movie and actually it really was a lovely thing.

Dr. Becky 2:32 Yeah.

Ash Brandon 2:32 Maybe that's something we can continue to incorporate, and then maybe there are things where we know, okay, but we still gotta get out of the door on time or, um, something like that. And then we think about, okay, if that's the need of our family, um, how do I, how do I make sure that we're incorporating the need of our family and starting from that place when I'm thinking about our relationship with screen?

Dr. Becky 2:56 Yeah. So I, I just wanna double click on something because I, I do think you're right away doing something I, I think that happens for me a lot, too, like almost shifting the question before you answer it because I think especially with screens, there's just a lot of what's the right amount, what's the wrong amount, what's good screen time, what's bad screen time. We did too much in the summer. We need to cut back. And, a- and I think what you're saying is you're starting not with those questions, but from something around, like, what's going on in your family, what does your family need, what works. It's kind of a little more personalized or a little more focused on the family first. So c- can you just, like, flesh that out a little?

Ash Brandon 3:35 Absolutely. So when I've been doing, like, this kind of focus on Instagram for the last few years, I've said that I have three main tenets.

Dr. Becky 3:42 Mm.

Ash Brandon 3:42 And first is that screen time is in many ways a social inequity issue, which I'm happy to come back to and drag out my soapbox. The second is that screens can be a part of our lives without being the center of our lives, which I think is what many families really want for their kids. And then the third is that screen time should work for the whole family. We should be considering-

Dr. Becky 4:04 Mm

Ash Brandon 4:04 ... the whole family.

Dr. Becky 4:05 Mm.

Ash Brandon 4:06 I think we often get kind of myopically focused on our kids, for good reason, right? We're thinking about what this could do to them or how it could he- be helpful to them. And the reality is is that in many ways screen time is often functioning to help alleviate burden for adults.

Dr. Becky 4:26 Mm-hmm.

Ash Brandon 4:27 Um, and m- a lot of that is not necessarily avoidable.

Dr. Becky 4:31 Mm-hmm.

Ash Brandon 4:31 If I'm a single parent or I have a caregiver who, uh, is working, like, swing shift, and so I'm alone for big chunks of my parenting, there are gonna be things that need help.

Dr. Becky 4:42 Yeah.

Ash Brandon 4:43 Like, I need a tool that's gonna help me lift that burden, and if I don't have other things available to me, something has to fill in that gap, and oftentimes it's going to be something like a screen. And we might wish that that's, there's something else to fill in for that, and that, I w- I would as well. It's not great that we sometimes have these gaps. And if this is something that can fill in those gaps, then instead of focusing just on a child, sometimes it helps to instead think, "Okay, not what is this doing to my child, but what is it allowing me to do for them?"

Dr. Becky 5:18 Mm.

Ash Brandon 5:18 And I think that that can often guide what the purpose of it is and if it is working for all of us-

Dr. Becky 5:26 Yeah

Ash Brandon 5:26 ... in the family.

Dr. Becky 5:27 Well, one of the things I hear a lot from parents is, "Okay, I feel like my kid's on the screen too much, and, and then I feel like I, I'm such a bad parent. I'm so embarrassed. I don't want anyone to know." There's, there's so much shame, right? Um, and the irony also there is the things that we hold a lot of shame around, we actually can't even change. We might want to change them, but the shame keeps us so stuck. So what I'm responding to what you're saying is, like, let's, let's put the shame to the side here. Screens, you know, in our busy world can do a lot of different things for the family. It's not just about a kid. There's a lot going on. And maybe you do want to shift screen time, but thinking about it more from a place of- What actually works for my whole family? What will I feel good about going to bed at night? Not what's right, what's wrong, what's my neighbor doing. Like, not from kind of such a, a place of judgment.

Ash Brandon 6:18 Absolutely. And [clears throat] I think when we come from that place of fear-

Dr. Becky 6:24 Yeah

Ash Brandon 6:24 ... you know, fear is not empowering. You know, I'm, I'm not going to make my best decisions when I'm acting out of fear or shame. Um, and when we're focused on, like, the potential of what could go wrong, or thinking like, "Well, I need to minimize this as much as possible 'cause that's what I am sh- thinking of as healthy."

Dr. Becky 6:43 Yeah.

Ash Brandon 6:43 Healthy doesn't always mean minimal.

Dr. Becky 6:45 Yeah.

Ash Brandon 6:45 Um, and really what we want is something that's sustainable.

Dr. Becky 6:49 Mm.

Ash Brandon 6:49 And we also recognize that, you know, our kids are going to grow up to be adults in a technologically driven world that we can't even really fully comprehend, I think.

Dr. Becky 6:58 Mm.

Ash Brandon 6:59 Right? It's gonna be even different than the world that we're in, and how technolo- technologically driven it is. So our, really our goal is to also make sure that we're raising kids who are digitally literate-

Dr. Becky 7:09 Yeah

Ash Brandon 7:09 ... and can be digitally safe. And that's hard to do if we are framing these things from a place of fear.

Dr. Becky 7:16 Mm-hmm.

Ash Brandon 7:17 Um, I can give my kid and empower my child to have a relationship with technology that might work for them long term if I'm able to view them with a sense of neutrality.

Dr. Becky 7:27 Mm-hmm.

Ash Brandon 7:28 And I think that that is really important, and I think that's very difficult for a lot of people because they associate, as you said, the amount of screen time that their kid has, it has some s- like, an inverse relationship with their value as a parent, right?

Dr. Becky 7:42 Mm.

Ash Brandon 7:42 If their kid is on screens a lot, then they might think, "This is, this is bad parenting."

Dr. Becky 7:48 Mm-hmm.

Ash Brandon 7:48 Like, "It might be benefiting me, but I shouldn't be doing that. I should be prioritizing my child." But that's where it comes back to what is it allowing?

Dr. Becky 7:57 Yeah.

Ash Brandon 7:57 What is it allowing to have happen in our family?

Dr. Becky 8:00 Well, let's go through a few kind of scenarios. Like, let's get specific. So let's start with the parent who's saying, "Okay, maybe I'm not even judging myself hardcore, but, like, I just think we've gotta get school routines in order. You know, my kid," I'm making this up, "but my kid starts their day with hours on the screen in the summer. It's been fine. It is what it is. It's obviously not gonna work when we have to get out the door at 7:30, 6:45, 8:00, whatever it is. Um, a- and I'm nervous. Like, my kids freak out when I change the rules." And h- how, h- how do I go about that? Like, how do we start?

Ash Brandon 8:30 Yeah, so in my book that's coming out, I have, the kind of last third is really devoted to really helping families, uh, make a structure that's going to work for them-

Dr. Becky 8:41 Mm

Ash Brandon 8:41 ... and kind of walks through this process. But you already outlined some of what would go into it. So first we think about, okay, what's, what's the need?

Dr. Becky 8:49 Yeah.

Ash Brandon 8:49 And if the need is like, we have to be out the door by 7:45, right, then that might already determine whether or not screens are gonna happen in the morning.

Dr. Becky 8:59 Yeah.

Ash Brandon 8:59 Right? Maybe we know, "Well, my kid can barely get out of bed by 7:15, so I don't really think there's time in there."

Dr. Becky 9:06 [laughs]

Ash Brandon 9:06 Or maybe they are a super early riser and there would be. And so if we know, okay, that's the need, then we can ask ourselves, "What input can I let my child contribute to this?"

Dr. Becky 9:17 Mm.

Ash Brandon 9:17 And I think that is so important. People, regardless of age, we want to feel like we're contributing to a decision that involves us.

Dr. Becky 9:26 Yeah.

Ash Brandon 9:26 And that doesn't mean that we are necessarily guiding it.

Dr. Becky 9:29 Mm-hmm.

Ash Brandon 9:29 But if we feel like we have some agency and some input, and we're being, uh, listened to or considered, w- it's gonna go a long way to, I think, making a, a rule or a boundary that's going to have some buy-in.

Dr. Becky 9:45 Uh, so I think no one likes feeling done to. Uh, nobody-

Ash Brandon 9:48 Yes

Dr. Becky 9:48 ... likes that at any age, right? But what is that line between, okay, what, what is input? What is, um, giving my kid my job, you know?

Ash Brandon 9:58 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 9:58 And asking them to do my job for me. So let's just take this scenario.

Ash Brandon 10:01 Mm.

Dr. Becky 10:01 Let's say you have a kid, out the door by 7:45. Let's say this kid, you know, you decide screen time in the morning is just not, it's not gonna end up-

Ash Brandon 10:07 Right

Dr. Becky 10:07 ... being great. Like, what are the, what's, like, the nitty-gritty? How, how should we go about that?

Ash Brandon 10:12 With the input that they give?

Dr. Becky 10:13 Yeah.

Ash Brandon 10:14 So if it's, you know what, my need is we're out the door by 7:45, this is sort of my non-negotiable.

Dr. Becky 10:20 Mm.

Ash Brandon 10:20 Like, we can't suddenly leave at 8:00, right? And oftentimes in the morning, it's like, if we're at 7:45 and 45 seconds, that can, like, throw off-

Dr. Becky 10:29 [laughs]

Ash Brandon 10:29 ... the whole morning, right?

Dr. Becky 10:31 Yes.

Ash Brandon 10:31 Um, and so if that's the need and that's the non-negotiable, then I might be leading with that in terms of, like, so this is, this is the reality, and that means that screens are not gonna be available before we leave in the morning, and I know that's different. And then give them something that they can help determine.

Dr. Becky 10:49 Mm-hmm.

Ash Brandon 10:50 So then think about, okay, well, when in the day could it be? And-

Dr. Becky 10:54 Mm

Ash Brandon 10:54 ... what could be up to them?

Dr. Becky 10:56 Mm-hmm.

Ash Brandon 10:56 And if it is, well, once we get home, it actually could be whenever, then maybe we let them be the person who makes that decision, um, so that then they're feeling like, "Okay, this is what I can immediately guide-

Dr. Becky 11:10 Yeah

Ash Brandon 11:10 ... and have input in."

Dr. Becky 11:12 So here's one of the things that I think that's hidden in there, because so many times, I think the decisions we're making as a parent or changes in rules, like a change in screen time rules, they, they feel like they can go south. They feel like it's a disaster. I think a lot of the times, we're almost asking our kid to, like, help us make that decision. Like, and so I'll, I'll voice it over, 'cause I definitely used to do this too. So people always think I'm a good actress. I'm like, that's complicated. I just used to say these things myself, [laughs] like, you know?

Ash Brandon 11:45 Right.

Dr. Becky 11:46 Um, there's no acting required. So, "Hey, look, we're starting school. Don't you think it's gonna be a good idea to not have screens in the morning because we'll be rushed, and don't you think it would be better..." And I've seen from my own kids, and then working with families, how dysregulating that is for kids. And then I think parents, the language we have is, "Yeah, because then my kid takes advantage." No. It's kind of like my pilot saying like, "Don't you think we should make an emergency landing?"

Ash Brandon 12:13 Right.

Dr. Becky 12:13 I'd be like, "Are you seriously asking me that?"

Ash Brandon 12:16 Right, right.

Dr. Becky 12:16 Like, uh, just make- ... decision.

Ash Brandon 12:17 Right

Dr. Becky 12:18 And then I maybe can have a reaction about whether I want, [laughs] I don't know, a refund or if I want to change my flight. But don't involve me in a decision that really isn't dome- my domain. And so I think what you're saying is, I just wanna reflect back, make sure I'm getting it right, if you have a non-negotiable as a parent, take some time, figure out what that is, and then lead with that.

Ash Brandon 12:39 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 12:39 Like, the- right? Because you can still let your kid have agency, but now there's no confusion about where that agency lies.

Ash Brandon 12:46 Absolutely. And what I think is so funny is that that framework-

Dr. Becky 12:51 Yeah

Ash Brandon 12:51 ... of, like, having some very clear boundaries or rules or non-negotiables, whatever word you wanna use, that really is how video games work, which is what-

Dr. Becky 12:59 Ooh, tell me more.

Ash Brandon 13:01 So think about, um-

Dr. Becky 13:02 I feel like now I'm, like, in-

Ash Brandon 13:03 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 13:04 You know that, what is it? The, like, uh, not The Matrix, but I'm like, this is like a meta conversation-

Ash Brandon 13:08 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 13:08 ... about the conversation. I'm, I'm excited.

Ash Brandon 13:10 Um, have you played a video game before, of any kind?

Dr. Becky 13:13 I feel-

Ash Brandon 13:14 This is very-

Dr. Becky 13:15 I'm gonna de-shame myself

Ash Brandon 13:16 ... this is very revealing.

Dr. Becky 13:16 I know.

Ash Brandon 13:17 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 13:18 I, I am not, I, I have not really played that many video games.

Ash Brandon 13:21 But, like, have you played Pac-Man? Like-

Dr. Becky 13:23 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ash Brandon 13:23 Okay.

Dr. Becky 13:24 Of course.

Ash Brandon 13:24 Okay.

Dr. Becky 13:24 Okay, of course.

Ash Brandon 13:25 You, you never know. Like, [laughs] so okay, uh, is that a good example to use?

Dr. Becky 13:29 Yeah, great.

Ash Brandon 13:30 Pac-Man? Okay.

Dr. Becky 13:30 Great.

Ash Brandon 13:30 So, like, you're playing Pac-Man.

Dr. Becky 13:32 Or Super Mario, like back in the day-

Ash Brandon 13:33 Oh, yeah

Dr. Becky 13:33 ... Mario?

Ash Brandon 13:34 Oh, yeah.

Dr. Becky 13:34 Oh, like original, like, do, do, do, do-

Ash Brandon 13:36 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 13:37 Okay.

Ash Brandon 13:37 Great. Okay.

Dr. Becky 13:38 Okay.

Ash Brandon 13:38 So you're playing Mario, right? And you n- you notice that there's, you know, the brick blocks and the-

Dr. Becky 13:45 Yeah

Ash Brandon 13:45 ... little question blocks, right?

Dr. Becky 13:46 Yes.

Ash Brandon 13:47 Um, and you figure out what happens by testing them, right? So you go up and you jump under the brick block, and when you're tiny Mario, and it just moves up, right?

Dr. Becky 13:58 Mm-hmm.

Ash Brandon 13:58 It just back down. But then you go to the question mark block as tiny Mario, and you get a coin-

Dr. Becky 14:03 Mm-hmm

Ash Brandon 14:03 ... or a star, whatever happens, right? So you're learning the conditions of the level. You're learning-

Dr. Becky 14:09 Mm

Ash Brandon 14:09 ... the rules. And then-

Dr. Becky 14:10 Learning how the world works.

Ash Brandon 14:11 Yes.

Dr. Becky 14:12 There.

Ash Brandon 14:12 And then you get your one-up mushroom and you get bigger, and then you learn that, oh, if I hit bricks as big Mario, then it will break, right?

Dr. Becky 14:21 Yeah.

Ash Brandon 14:21 And y- you test these over and over again to make sure, as a player, that they are what they say they are, that they're sturdy. And if, for example, if, like, one out of every 100 times that you jumped under one of those brick blocks, if instead of breaking, it would randomly, I don't know, like, warp you to the end of the level, what would you do? You would stand under that, and you would jump as many times-

Dr. Becky 14:52 Mm

Ash Brandon 14:52 ... as you need to to get that outcome, because now it's, there's a, there's a chance, right?

Dr. Becky 14:58 Mm.

Ash Brandon 14:58 So the- video games are very good at laying out the sort of non-negotiables. Here's the walls, here's the levels, here's, like, the edge of the world.

Dr. Becky 15:08 Yeah.

Ash Brandon 15:08 Here's what the characters will say. But then what you do within those rules gives you a lot of freedom. You can do whatever you want within those rules. If you want to stand and do nothing, if you wanna run off the edge of the world, if you wanna-

Dr. Becky 15:23 Yeah

Ash Brandon 15:23 ... test them, you can. Um, but I feel like rules and boundaries for kids-

Dr. Becky 15:28 Ugh

Ash Brandon 15:29 ... provide that sense of, like, here's, here's the world we're in. Here are the things that you can count on, whether or not you like that, right? Sometimes we don't like the rules that are presented to us in a game or in real life. But then we know, okay, so my freedom is within these things, and that, there's a lot of agency and a lot of autonomy that comes from that.

Dr. Becky 15:51 I, I, I think that is so beautifully stated. A- and the thing about it, that it also makes me think about is, let's say in Super Mario, right, where when I'm little, I'm not gonna, like, maybe be able to reach the bricks or break it, right?

Ash Brandon 16:03 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 16:03 Where if I try over and over, and I'm little, try, the bricks, the bricks aren't, like, getting mad at me.

Ash Brandon 16:08 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 16:08 The bricks aren't like, "M- come on, Mario. Come on."

Ash Brandon 16:11 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 16:11 "Why you keep doing this, Mario?" Like, the bricks are just the bricks. So, like, I kinda know my role, and, like, little Mario can press me as many times as little Mario wants, and nothing's gonna happen. They don't, like, the bricks don't take it personally.

Ash Brandon 16:22 Thousand percent.

Dr. Becky 16:23 [laughs]

Ash Brandon 16:23 Yes. The, I'm so glad you picked up on that. Yes, the video game enforces the rules consistently, but neutrally, right? So you can do, you can do all that rule-breaking or attempted rule-breaking as many times as you want, and the game is not going to admonish you, and it's not gonna be like, "How many times do we have to tell you? Stop trying this. This is not what you're supposed to be doing," right? And there is freedom in that.

Dr. Becky 16:47 Yes.

Ash Brandon 16:47 There is a sense of autonomy-

Dr. Becky 16:48 There is

Ash Brandon 16:48 ... in that-

Dr. Becky 16:49 Yep

Ash Brandon 16:49 ... in, in being able to test that just to make sure.

Dr. Becky 16:52 Yeah.

Ash Brandon 16:52 And I will say, as someone who still plays video games in my life, if I'm talking to, like, a character in the game, I will talk to them, like, at least three times to make sure that I've s- heard everything they're gonna say, and then once they start looping, I th- I think, "Okay, I can stop talking to them now," because I've made sure I've exhausted all the-

Dr. Becky 17:10 Yeah

Ash Brandon 17:10 ... information. But I learn that by testing.

Dr. Becky 17:13 Yeah.

Ash Brandon 17:13 And that's obviously, that's more fun in a video game than it is when you're the parent-

Dr. Becky 17:18 Right

Ash Brandon 17:18 ... in real life.

Dr. Becky 17:20 There it is.

Ash Brandon 17:20 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 17:20 Uh, there's no prizes-

Ash Brandon 17:21 No

Dr. Becky 17:21 ... in real life.

Ash Brandon 17:22 No, no.

Dr. Becky 17:22 No coins.

Ash Brandon 17:23 There, yeah, and there's no, like-

Dr. Becky 17:24 Power-ups and... Yeah. [laughs]

Ash Brandon 17:25 No. I know. Which is, is, one of the things I always say is, like, I think about boundaries a lot, and, you know, I think people have some unconscious fantasy for me, that, like, I go over to my kids, and let's say it is screen time. Screen time is over, and you're allowed to be upset, and my kid's like, "Mom, you are such a sturdy leader."

Dr. Becky 17:42 [laughs]

Ash Brandon 17:42 "I really love you. You're really crushing it right now. Two coins." It's never happened.

Dr. Becky 17:46 No.

Ash Brandon 17:47 You usually get rewarded with a tantrum at first. That's usually the reward. [laughs] Like, you know, "Why? Ah." You know? Um, although over time, if you are relatively consistent-

Dr. Becky 17:57 Mm-hmm

Ash Brandon 17:57 ... none of us are all the time, uh, then those reactions decrease because on some level, your kid thinks, "This is how the world works. I got it now. I'll move on to the next one to test." [laughs]

Dr. Becky 18:06 Exactly. Right. There's that feeling of consistency.

Ash Brandon 18:09 Yes.

Dr. Becky 18:10 And that doesn't necessarily mean they like it.

Ash Brandon 18:12 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 18:12 And, um, we also know, and I know this is something you say a lot, is I take a lot of-

Ash Brandon 18:18 Um, I do a lot of comparisons between video games or technology and food.

Dr. Becky 18:22 Mm.

Ash Brandon 18:22 And I think a lot about the division of responsibility model with food. You know, parent or an adult is-

Dr. Becky 18:28 Yeah

Ash Brandon 18:28 ... in control of what-

Dr. Becky 18:29 El- like Ellyn Satter, yeah

Ash Brandon 18:31 ... Ellyn Satter, yeah.

Dr. Becky 18:31 Love Ellyn

Ash Brandon 18:31 . Of what, what is available and when, right?

Dr. Becky 18:33 Mm-hmm.

Ash Brandon 18:33 And a child decides how much to eat of what's available. Well, I really think about screens the same way. An adult decides what content is available-

Dr. Becky 18:41 Uh-huh

Ash Brandon 18:41 ... and when.

Dr. Becky 18:42 Uh-huh.

Ash Brandon 18:43 And a child decides what to do within the content that is allowed-

Dr. Becky 18:47 Mm

Ash Brandon 18:47 ... which might mean they're doing something ridiculous for that half hour because they're testing a rule. But I think the other part that's really important is that a child's job is also to have feelings about it.

Dr. Becky 18:57 Yeah.

Ash Brandon 18:58 And wow, they're really good at that part of their job.

Dr. Becky 19:00 They really-

Ash Brandon 19:01 They-

Dr. Becky 19:01 It seems like every generation we're getting a little better.

Ash Brandon 19:04 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 19:05 [laughs] It's a lot of, a lot of range of feelings. No.

Ash Brandon 19:08 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 19:08 No, it, it really is true. And look, you know, one of the reframes, whether we're talking about screen time or anything else with boundaries, is when you realize your kid's big feelings are actually a sign you just set a boundary. 'Cause some parents know it's hard for me to set boundaries, and I'm working on setting boundaries, and it is true. It would be amazing if the world worked where it's hard for me to set a boundary, so when I set a boundary, I get coins and unicorns and rainbows and, you know, that would... and an ice cream cone. Uh, that doesn't happen. But having a signal is helpful. So if you start realizing, my kid's whining and complaining or protesting, it's not the, it's not the sign I would choose, but it is a sign that I just set a boundary. It, it's, uh, I think it's less likely you interpret it as a sign you're doing something wrong, and actually a sign you're doing your job, right?

Ash Brandon 19:56 Yes. And I think with technology, and particularly with screens, I think it ju- it hits a little bit differently.

Dr. Becky 20:01 Yes.

Ash Brandon 20:01 I think for a lot of parents, 'cause in that moment, I think we're in that place mentally where we might already be wrestling with, should I even allow this? Should I have said yes to this? I'm worried about what it might do. And then if at the end they're protesting, we reasonably are thinking, like, there's that part of your brain, or at least my brain-

Dr. Becky 20:21 Yes

Ash Brandon 20:21 ... that's like, "You should be happy. I set it up."

Dr. Becky 20:23 Oh, 100%.

Ash Brandon 20:24 You go-

Dr. Becky 20:24 Like, like can you not assuage-

Ash Brandon 20:26 Or-

Dr. Becky 20:26 ... my guilt with your compliance?

Ash Brandon 20:27 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 20:29 [laughs] Oh. Right?

Ash Brandon 20:30 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 20:30 Like, for real. Isn't that what-

Ash Brandon 20:32 So-

Dr. Becky 20:32 ... my kid's supposed to do?

Ash Brandon 20:34 [laughs] And also, it's like, okay, if we peel that back, too, it's like, okay, if we were in another scenario, if we were at a playground, at a pool, at a friend's house, and they protested or a tantrum because they didn't wanna leave, we probably wouldn't blame the playground.

Dr. Becky 20:52 Mm.

Ash Brandon 20:53 And we probably wouldn't-

Dr. Becky 20:54 Interesting

Ash Brandon 20:54 ... blame the pool, you know? As-

Dr. Becky 20:57 This fricking pool.

Ash Brandon 20:58 Like... [laughs]

Dr. Becky 20:59 [laughs] Pools are bad.

Ash Brandon 21:00 And we, and we also-

Dr. Becky 21:01 Yeah

Ash Brandon 21:01 ... probably would not say, "Well, we can't come to this playground ever again." Like, we ins- we instead are able to look through the medium-

Dr. Becky 21:13 Yeah

Ash Brandon 21:13 ... and see the skill.

Dr. Becky 21:15 Yes.

Ash Brandon 21:15 And see, okay, so it, it's hard to leave fun places. It's hard to stop in the middle of things, whatever the, the underlying feeling is.

Dr. Becky 21:25 Yes.

Ash Brandon 21:26 Uh, and that's often what's happening when kids are having a hard time on technology. And because we might have our own association with that, that technology, like, "I shouldn't be doing this. I'm a bad parent if I do this," then that kind of supersedes. And that's why I talk so much about having neutrality, because when we can be neutral, that doesn't mean it's a free-for-all, right?

Dr. Becky 21:51 Mm.

Ash Brandon 21:51 Like, chips are neutral morally, and broccoli is mu- neutral morally, and we can offer them in different-

Dr. Becky 21:57 Yes

Ash Brandon 21:57 ... amounts or with different frequencies, and we can be similar with how we think about technology. 'Cause when I can think about it neutrally, then I can also make comparisons to other parts of my kid's life and see the skill and how it transfers.

Dr. Becky 22:12 I, I really mean this. I, uh, that is s- it's such a brilliant layer to add to this. I w- I, I haven't ever thought about that before, so I feel like that's one part of this conversation that's gonna stick with me, that it is so true. Our kids get upset at the end of screen time. Our kids get upset when we say they can't have a third ice cream scoop if they had, w- or whatever the rule is. Our kids get upset exactly the same way-

Ash Brandon 22:32 Sometimes they get upset when we say yes to the thing they just asked us for.

Dr. Becky 22:34 That is very true.

Ash Brandon 22:35 Right.

Dr. Becky 22:35 Once again, it's the being so good at feelings-

Ash Brandon 22:37 Right

Dr. Becky 22:37 ... in this generation. Um, and, and so rarely in those situations, probably because it's not so complicated by our own set of conflicts or guilt or narrative, that we, that we are more likely to realize it is so hard to end things that are fun. It is so hard to stop things that you want to keep doing. It is so hard for something that's enjoyable to ever feel like enough, right? Um, but with screens, we are so quick to rattle off, like, "We're never doing this again," and, "I'm throwing away your iPad," and, you know, "This is bad, and I knew it," and, "I'm a horrible parent." And I, you're, a- and I think you're so right that that, uh, you know, has to do with what we've been telling ourselves and our narrative. And if we do see it as, again, it's always hard to end things that are fun. That, that's true for four-year-olds and 44-year-olds.

Ash Brandon 23:22 Absolutely.

Dr. Becky 23:22 Right? Like, no one... I think humans are just never that good at wanting things and not having them. And I don't know if we ever wanna be that good at them. You wanna be good enough to, like, function in society.

Ash Brandon 23:31 Right.

Dr. Becky 23:31 But it's good to know what you want.

Ash Brandon 23:33 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 23:33 It, it drives you, right?

Ash Brandon 23:34 Right.

Dr. Becky 23:35 [laughs]

Ash Brandon 23:35 And also, and then I think this is part of it, too, it's okay to have leisure be leisure.

Dr. Becky 23:40 Mm.

Ash Brandon 23:41 And I think with something like screens or video games or more passive activities in terms of, like, their product- productivity-

Dr. Becky 23:49 Right

Ash Brandon 23:50 ... I think we might look at that and go, "Well, they, but they could've been doing something better with their time." But leisure for the sake of leisure is also valid.

Dr. Becky 23:58 Yeah.

Ash Brandon 23:58 And everybody deserves that, and that includes our kids.

Dr. Becky 24:01 Okay, so now, this is, like, this is, like, not on my questions, like, [laughs] throw these out. But you just, you know, brought something up in me. I'll never forget talking to my therapist years ago, and I was talking about coming home with our kids, being exhausted on Sundays, 'cause we often would travel for the weekend, and so tired, and, you know, my kids would go off and do their thing, and my husband would be on the couch, like, chilling for a little bit. And I was just telling my therapist, like- Something's wrong with him. Like, I don't understand. Like, there's so much to unpack. There's so much to unpack, and, like, like, I, I don't get it. And, like, uh, then we get in a fight, of course, and I'll never forget my therapist saying, "I think you need his help." And I was like, "Yeah, I know." And he goes, "Just let me finish." He goes, "I think you need his help sitting on the couch. Literally."

Ash Brandon 24:49 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 24:49 Like, "I don't think you heard me."

Ash Brandon 24:50 Is he paying you secretly or no? [laughs]

Dr. Becky 24:52 Yeah, like, literally, like, what the fresh heck is happening, because, like, you ... No, no, he needs to help me, and he's like, y- you sound really tired, and, like, some version of rest is not a reward, and also, if I'm gonna be direct, I think you're so triggered, because there's a part of you that wants to sit on the couch, and you don't know how to give yourself permission.

Ash Brandon 25:11 Oh.

Dr. Becky 25:11 I was like, "Damn it."

Ash Brandon 25:12 Ugh.

Dr. Becky 25:12 Why does it always come back to us?

Ash Brandon 25:13 Oh.

Dr. Becky 25:13 But I think, is this all connected to, like, when I see my kids, you're like, "Yeah, it is connected."

Ash Brandon 25:19 Well, keep going, 'cause I'm, I, I wanna do the fully-

Dr. Becky 25:21 Yeah, like, I see them, and I feel like you could be reading, like, you could be doing art. Like, can we finish this? Let's play a family board game. I do love board games, and, like, I, I just, it- it's, it- it's hard for me to, it's hard for m- maybe it's just it's hard for me to stay neutral. I haven't thought about that word since b- you've been saying it. It's hard for me to stay neutral.

Ash Brandon 25:39 Yeah. I hadn't really, uh, thought of it quite in the terms that you have. I often think of it from the kind of weight that we put on, um, our own parenting, like, ability or our goodness as a parent, and I think we want to do right by our kids, and we want to always be doing the best for our kids, and that is a noble thing. That's not a bad thing. And so if our kids are doing something like using their iPad or watching a movie, we kind of put into that all the things we can think of that we think hold more value. This is a reason that-

Dr. Becky 26:17 Mm

Ash Brandon 26:17 ... there's a phrase of, um, like, think about what is screen time replacing, and I have taken a lot of umbrage with this phrase.

Dr. Becky 26:24 Mm.

Ash Brandon 26:25 Because if you're coming from a place of thinking of screens as bad, you're gonna fill that, what they could be doing instead, with every single thing that you can think of-

Dr. Becky 26:35 Mm

Ash Brandon 26:35 ... that would be better, right? And it might, maybe that's, you know, they could be playing a board game-

Dr. Becky 26:41 Yeah

Ash Brandon 26:41 ... instead of a video game. They could be reading a book instead of reading the words on the screen. They could be... You're gonna come up with this litany of things. And, um, so it, it really means, like, well, then we're not thinking of it as, like, a tool. We're f- not thinking of it in this neutral place, and I think it's a big part of our own judgment of ourselves of, um, feeling like, well, if they're doing this and they're just doing it for fun, which is a valid reason to do it, but if they're just doing it for fun, it's, uh, almost as if we're condoning it.

Dr. Becky 27:15 Yeah, like, I guess I have, um, almost like, I'm just thinking about it now. It's coming up for me as I'm saying it. It's, like, a fear of laziness or it's, like, gonna, you know, take over and crowd out the other stuff. And, um, I think what you're saying is, like, just putting screens aside, like, what is our relationship with rest, with just, you know, fun, with something that's not, quote, "productive toward an outcome"? Because if we know as an adult that we have some, like, stuff there, that'll probably act itself out a little bit in how we approach our, like, you know, screen time with kids.

Ash Brandon 27:49 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 27:49 Mm-hmm.

Ash Brandon 27:49 Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, involving something in our kids' lives, you know, we do, we have so many parts of our kids' lives that we make sure they get exposed to, and that doesn't mean that they are just unconditional-

Dr. Becky 28:07 Mm-hmm

Ash Brandon 28:07 ... and that there's no rules or guidance or boundaries around those things.

Dr. Becky 28:11 Yeah.

Ash Brandon 28:11 Right? Like, we have many neutral parts of the day, like bath time, but we also wouldn't let our kids stay in the bathtub for six hours.

Dr. Becky 28:21 Right.

Ash Brandon 28:21 Right? Like, and we also probably wouldn't let them be the only person to guide that decision. So by th- that, that neutrality piece allows-

Dr. Becky 28:29 Yeah

Ash Brandon 28:29 ... us to think, well, okay, if we want our kids to think of technology or screens as being just another part of their lives and it's not a huge deal and they don't need to obsess over them, then we have to treat them like not a big deal.

Dr. Becky 28:42 Yeah.

Ash Brandon 28:42 And that doesn't mean they're available as much as reading or bath time or family time, but we can still be neutral in the framing around them, and that also makes it a lot easier as the parent-

Dr. Becky 28:55 Yep

Ash Brandon 28:56 ... or the caregiver to hold that boundary, because we've sort of removed the emotional weight-

Dr. Becky 29:02 Yeah

Ash Brandon 29:02 ... that we might have been holding around it.

Dr. Becky 29:05 So maybe this is, like, an overly simplistic question, um, but, like, is there a such thing as too much screen time? Would it be like that is a thing?

Ash Brandon 29:13 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 29:13 Okay.

Ash Brandon 29:13 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 29:14 Mm-hmm.

Ash Brandon 29:14 Um, so depends kinda how you wanna define that.

Dr. Becky 29:18 Totally.

Ash Brandon 29:18 I know a lot of the, like, research literature that looks at impacts of different amounts and, um, quantifies things like more problematic relationships with gaming or screen time, they tend to define excessive use as, uh, um, generally, like, four or more hours per day, but even that depends on the study you're reading. They might be talking about, like, just playing a video game. They might be talking about-

Dr. Becky 29:43 Mm-hmm

Ash Brandon 29:43 ... different uses of screens. And when it comes down to, you know, our, our real lives-

Dr. Becky 29:50 Yeah

Ash Brandon 29:50 ... I'll sometimes have families who reach out and say, like, "Okay, but if my kid is on a Chromebook at school, does that count?"

Dr. Becky 29:56 Mm.

Ash Brandon 29:56 "What if they're typing in a document? What if they're reading an e-book? Does that count?" And it's so easy to get into the-

Dr. Becky 30:02 Yeah

Ash Brandon 30:02 ... granular minutia, and that's why I like to sort of pull back and instead ask, like, is this an amount that is working for everyone and allowing us to get our needs met, and is it also, like, sustainable in terms of the management I have to put in?

Dr. Becky 30:22 Right.

Ash Brandon 30:23 Right? Like, if I am letting my kid watch a 30-minute episode of PAW Patrol while I make dinner, but- Then at the end, it's a 25-minute meltdown to end it, well, then that-

Dr. Becky 30:36 Mm

Ash Brandon 30:36 ... I'm not getting it.

Dr. Becky 30:37 Right. [laughs]

Ash Brandon 30:38 Like, I'm having to invest a lot of time-

Dr. Becky 30:40 Yes

Ash Brandon 30:40 ... to get that 30 minutes. But that is information. And so instead of immediately being like, "I knew it. I shouldn't have let you watch that," if instead we go, "Okay, what, what about this?" Coming back to the need, what's the need? If the need is I have no other caregiver, and I wanna make a meal that isn't frozen chicken nuggets for the third day in a row, and I need to be able to safely be in my kitchen, and so I need my kid occupied, okay, that's the need. Then yeah, a screen might be the tool that you need in that moment, if there isn't another one available.

Dr. Becky 31:11 Mm-hmm.

Ash Brandon 31:12 And if that's my need, okay, if today, wow, Paw Patrol really did not work, that was rough, what can I change?

Dr. Becky 31:20 Yeah.

Ash Brandon 31:20 I can't change that I need that need met. I can't change that I don't have another caregiver a- available. I can't change if we don't have access to a playground that my kid can play alone at. But I could change what show they watch, or maybe I change going to the park right before so they've had some big input, and maybe that makes, like, the dysregulation not as impactful that day. So that neutrality allows us to see-

Dr. Becky 31:46 Yeah

Ash Brandon 31:46 ... it as data, as information.

Dr. Becky 31:48 Yeah.

Ash Brandon 31:48 And then we can, you know, shift and try things out to figure out what's gonna work for us, and that also shows our kids how they can apply that to their lives as they grow up.

Dr. Becky 31:59 And, and the layer that I often think about when parents ask me these questions is I think there's, there's so many, there's so many other factors here, because one of the things I think about a lot with screens, again, is not moral, not good or bad. But one of the things I think we all want for our kids is for them to learn that success, that excitement, that dopamine, you know, does not always come quickly or to them. It's not something they can just easily consume. And for example, like, I sometimes need to work hard before I get success. I can create things, and it's messy, and I can take ideas inside me and make towers or, or do things, right? Now, I agree, like, that does not have to be mutually exclusive with screens, but when I'm often talking to families about is an amount working, to me, where often families say it's stopping working or where they maybe wish they did things a little differently, is where they see this pattern of my kid is almost so accustomed to, quote, "success" and dopamine coming to them with relatively little effort that their tolerance for other forms of play, their tolerance for learning how to read, which is just a lot of effort, I see it lower. And so in the early years, the one, the things I say to parents is it's not about ... I, I, again, every family's so different. I hate the idea of, like, this is the amount, or this is like, every family's different. I don't know what's going on. There's so many factors. Equity is a huge thing, too. But to just think, like, does my kid have opportunities where, by the way, I'll probably have to tolerate their frustration. They're gonna whine. They're gonna tantrum, right? But where they are building kind of some emotion regulation skills for working hard at something and sticking with things, um, and trying things and negotiating and doing things that are really complex without some immediate reward, I think is, like, a really, it's an important offset.

Ash Brandon 33:56 Absolutely. I, um, I remember actually the, the other con- conversation that we had about screens.

Dr. Becky 34:01 Yeah.

Ash Brandon 34:02 You framed something in a particular way that I come back to and think about all the time, and it was similar to this, and it was more from the kind of more extreme side, talking to, um, I think people you'd worked with who were in, um, like, coming out of addiction, but with substances-

Dr. Becky 34:20 Yes

Ash Brandon 34:20 ... not with technology. And I remember you saying something about, like, if we're trying to find something to, that can kind of function as not, like, a direct supplement, but we're trying to kind of shift that, you know, it's not going to be as satisfying, right?

Dr. Becky 34:36 Yes. [laughs]

Ash Brandon 34:36 If I am suffering, if I am in an addictive relationship with, like, a substance, right, like, and I'm suddenly like, "I'm gonna do yoga," you know [laughs] like-

Dr. Becky 34:44 Not gonna feel as good-

Ash Brandon 34:45 Yeah

Dr. Becky 34:45 ... as fast.

Ash Brandon 34:46 Right.

Dr. Becky 34:46 Nope. [laughs]

Ash Brandon 34:47 It's not gonna be the same, right?

Dr. Becky 34:49 Right. [laughs]

Ash Brandon 34:50 So we, we can't find a direct substitute, and I think what you're saying, too, is that we don't want necessarily to find a direct substitute.

Dr. Becky 34:56 Yeah.

Ash Brandon 34:56 So one of the things that screens are very good at is they are very good at providing dense, immediate, and consistent feedback.

Dr. Becky 35:07 Yes.

Ash Brandon 35:07 And s- uh, in ways that the real world just doesn't do.

Dr. Becky 35:12 Yeah.

Ash Brandon 35:12 Like, and would be nice sometimes if it would. But even if I'm a two-year-old and I'm trying to balance blocks, right, versus, like, a block tower on an iPad, right, those blocks on that iPad, they're always gonna have the same center of gravity, and they're always gonna go the same way, and they might have the same, like, wobbly animation every time, so I know I have to make an adjustment. And all of that is gonna be a lot more immediate-

Dr. Becky 35:38 Yes

Ash Brandon 35:38 ... and a lot more consistent than the physical blocks. Um, so I like to frame things that is thinking not as a substitute, but instead as a supplement.

Dr. Becky 35:49 Uh, yes, I think that's it.

Ash Brandon 35:51 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 35:51 We're both like, it's a part of your world-

Ash Brandon 35:52 Right

Dr. Becky 35:52 ... and not all of your world.

Ash Brandon 35:53 Right. And I've had that same conversation at, in my own household when it came to, like, coloring.

Dr. Becky 35:59 Yeah.

Ash Brandon 35:59 Like apps where it's like, well, I just click this, and I click this, and now it's, like, fully saturated.

Dr. Becky 36:02 [laughs]

Ash Brandon 36:02 And I'm like, "But I get it. It is deeply satisfying. I lo- I totally get it. And I also want you to be able to color that in just as-"

Dr. Becky 36:13 That's right

Ash Brandon 36:13 ... "satisfyingly, and it will take more time, and we're gonna try that right now."

Dr. Becky 36:19 Yep.

Ash Brandon 36:19 And like you said, some day, some days I have the capacity, and I know I have the time, I have the capacity, I have the emotional wherewithal that I can sit with you in this discomfort-

Dr. Becky 36:32 Yep

Ash Brandon 36:32 ... and help you manage this discomfort. That's a skill I can help you with right now. And some days I don't.

Dr. Becky 36:39 Yep.

Ash Brandon 36:39 Right? And so if that's not something that I have available to me, again, one of the benefits of the neutrality is that then I'm not in my brain going like, "Oh my gosh, they're only gonna wanna color on this iPad ever again. They're never gonna pick up a pencil. They're never..." I'm not gonna doom spiral about, and catastrophize, but instead I can go, "Okay, I can't handle this right now. Today they're gonna color on the iPad." And m- mental note, like, we need to make sure we're also getting in some of these other opportunities.

Dr. Becky 37:07 I love that.

Ash Brandon 37:07 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 37:08 Well, look, uh, your work, I- I- I... Thank you. A- and your book is-

Ash Brandon 37:13 Oh, thank you

Dr. Becky 37:13 ... you know, is so wonderful. Any, any kind of final or things you're like, "Oh, I just have to get this in," final thoughts or something you really want a parent to know?

Ash Brandon 37:21 I think the other aspect I'd just add that I think we've talked a lot around, but maybe not directly about is there are r- many reasons that are, like, reasonable to have fear when it comes to technology.

Dr. Becky 37:35 Mm.

Ash Brandon 37:35 I think especially as our kids get older, we start feeling afraid of things that could be bad or dangerous or feel really just scary. Um, and we want to, obviously we want to protect our kids. And, um, we, at least for myself, I don't tend to do my best parenting or even, like, existing when I am coming from a place of fear, 'cause all I can really do is react. I can't really be particularly proactive.

Dr. Becky 38:04 Yeah.

Ash Brandon 38:04 And I think with things like as kids get older and we're thinking about, like, smartphones or social media and all the, all the things that can come with that, um, we want to shield our kids from it, and again, I think that's, like, a reasonable concern that people have, and they want to shield their kids from it. And I like to make a comparison to thinking about pools. We just mentioned pools a few minutes ago, but thinking about pools, because pools are fun, have a lot of opportunity, bodies of water can enrich your life, and they are inherently dangerous.

Dr. Becky 38:38 Yeah.

Ash Brandon 38:39 Right? Like, we are not born suddenly able to swim and navigate and do all those things. And w- we also know that because a pool or body of water is dangerous, we have to give our kids the skills they need to navigate that thing.

Dr. Becky 38:55 Yeah.

Ash Brandon 38:56 So what I try to do in conversations like, conversations like this, but also in my book, is to really emphasize how am I thinking about the skills that my child may need to navigate something, even if it's just balance-

Dr. Becky 39:12 Yeah

Ash Brandon 39:12 ... between responsibilities and leisure. Both are valid. We also have to find a way to make them all work, and something like being able to navigate something that can be dangerous. And when we're able to see through to the skill instead of focusing on the fear I have-

Dr. Becky 39:29 Mm-hmm

Ash Brandon 39:29 ... about what could go wrong, then we're able to empower our child and empower ourselves, and I think that when we're coming from a place of fear, we're not going to be empowered. We're not gonna be able to empower them, but being able to focus on the skill, and then we can help them see all the ways that applies, and then that helps them in their lives as they grow up, whether it's in the digital world or the real world.

Dr. Becky 39:53 I love that, the shift from fear to empowerment and skills, so thank you. That's a great note to end on.

Ash Brandon 39:58 Absolutely.

Dr. Becky 39:58 Well, thank you.

Ash Brandon 39:58 Thank you.

Dr. Becky 39:58 Look forward to talking to you again soon.

Ash Brandon 40:01 Thank you for having me.

Dr. Becky 40:02 I don't know about you, but for me, the biggest thing I took from the conversation is realizing how loaded screen time is, and actually how I can make better decisions that I feel good about with my kids when I do kinda strip away the shame and I look at it as one part of their life, and figuring out what works for the family and not adding such an intense layer of judgment. That will actually help me show up in a way I feel prouder about. Anyway, let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground, place a hand on your heart, and let's remind ourselves, even as I struggle on the outside, I remain good inside. I can't wait to see you next time. [outro music]