A Different Take on Screen Time

We all know too much screen time isn’t good for kids—and our instinct as parents is to protect them from it. But when fear shapes how we manage screens at home, it can quickly turn into shame the moment they pick one up. In today’s world, where screens are woven into so much of daily life, the real challenge is to face that reality with thoughtfulness - and to make choices guided by our values, not by guilt. In this episode, Dr. Becky sits down with screen time expert **Ash Brandon, EdS (@thegamereducator)** to talk about the moral judgments, practical boundaries, and family-specific choices that shape our approach to screens. Get the Good Inside App by Dr. Becky: https://bit.ly/4fSxbzk Your Good Inside membership might be eligible for HSA/FSA reimbursement! To learn more about how to get your membership reimbursed, check out the link here: https://www.goodinside.com/fsa-hsa-eligibility/ Follow Dr. Becky on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drbeckyatgoodinside Sign up for our weekly email, Good Insider: https://www.goodinside.com/newsletter For a full transcript of the episode, go to [goodinside.com/podcast](http://goodinside.com/podcast). When it comes to school snacks, I’ve never been the “pack my kid a portable charcuterie board” kind of parent. If you are, more power to you. I’m more of a “grab-and-go” type - I want something simple, nutritious, and easy for my kids to reach for as we’re heading out the door. That’s why I like Chomps. Their full-size meat sticks have 10 grams of protein and zero sugar. They’re filling and made from real ingredients, so it’s one less thing to think about. And if you’ve ever opened your kid’s backpack to find a half-eaten snack from who-knows-when still wrapped up in there, Chomplings are great. They’re smaller sticks (the right size to toss in a lunchbox or that little front backpack pocket) with 4 grams of protein and zero sugar. Chomps are made of high-quality ingredients like 100% grass-fed beef, venison, and antibiotic-free turkey. They’re also free from the top nine allergens, so you don’t have to worry about sending them to school. Check out all the sizes and delicious flavors at Chomps.com/DRBECKY for 15% off plus free shipping. We say it all the time at Good Inside: Taking care of yourself isn’t selfish - it’s self-sustaining. But let’s be honest: Self-care can feel impossible without reliable childcare. That’s where Sittercity comes in. It’s a trusted platform that makes it easier to find sitters who are kind, experienced, and show up when you need them. You can read real parent reviews, connect with sitters directly, and even set up interviews, all in one spot. Whether you’re craving a solo errand run, a date night out, or need after school support, Sittercity can give you the logistical support you need to show up for yourself. Find a sitter or nanny that’s perfect for your family at sittercity dot com and use code "goodinside" for 25% off the annual or quarterly premium subscription plans. Use promocode: goodinside [**https://www.sittercity.com/?utm_source=cp&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-may2025&utm_content=goodinside**](https://www.sittercity.com/?utm_source=cp&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-may2025&utm_content=goodinside) If you’re anything like me, you’re running out of summer activity ideas for your kids! Well, exciting news for parents everywhere: Good Inside just teamed up with the Play-Doh brand and Walmart to bring you a video series on how to help kids build life-long skills like imagination, confidence, and frustration tolerance - all through open-ended play! The best part: I promise this isn’t another thing to add to your already packed plate as a parent. No hours of prep, no need for picture-perfect setups. All you need is a Play-Doh can or two. *We also made a guide with “5 Steps to Open-ended Play” that you can literally download* *on the Good Inside blog* *and try today. (Full disclosure: I printed the guide out and stuck it on my fridge as a reminder for myself - after all, my kids get “mom” at home, not Dr. Becky!)* Head to walmart.com/playdoh to watch the videos. That’s walmart.com/playdoh. I can’t wait to hear what your kid creates.

Dr. BeckyhostAsh Brandonguest

Aug 12, 202541mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

40 min read · 8,189 words

0:00 – 3:35
Rethinking the summer-to-school screen-time reset (without panic)
1. BEDr. Becky
  This week, I'm joined by Ash Brandon. Ash is an educator, a researcher, and a former middle school teacher who's on a mission to help families rethink screen time. You might know Ash from Instagram as The Gamer Educator, where they share practical, compassionate tools to help parents set boundaries without shame or power struggles. And exciting news, Ash's brand-new book, Power On, hits bookstores everywhere on August 26th. This conversation really stuck with me and gave me so much insight into some of my own triggers around my own kids' screen time. That's one of the things Ash and I talk about, and I can't wait for you to hear this conversation because I know you will also learn something new, have a reframe for how you think about screen time, and also feel empowered to deal with screen time with your kids in a way that feels good instead of ridden with guilt. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this. Hi, Ash.
2. ABAsh Brandon
  Hi.
3. BEDr. Becky
  I'm so excited to have you here.
4. ABAsh Brandon
  I am so thrilled to be here. Thank you so much.
5. BEDr. Becky
  Okay, we're gonna talk about so many different things, screen time, and misconceptions, and reframes. I know you love all those things. I do, too. But I'm just thinking about the time of year, and I feel like I hear from parents in this kind of summer to fall transition all the time, just like, "I feel like I had a lot of screen time over the summer. Feel like it's time to tighten up." Just in this moment of time when I think that thought is in so many parents' heads, like, where do you go from there in terms of even how parents are thinking about it, tightening up, what that means, summer to fall, screen time in general this time? Tell me your thoughts.
6. ABAsh Brandon
  Yeah, I think summer is that, like, kind of wonderful time where we can get more relaxed and flexible, and then we see sort of the, like, the coming reality of, oh yeah, and then we have to go back to the school year and all the things that that entails. And I, they feel like a lot of caregivers want to, you know, prepare so that we are setting ourselves up for success. Um, and when it comes to things like technology, I think it is helpful sometimes to think about, well, what maybe was or wasn't working for us before.
7. BEDr. Becky
  Mm.
8. ABAsh Brandon
  Or what are some things that maybe came up over the summer where we've relaxed a bit? Maybe there's some things with that that actually were kind of nice.
9. BEDr. Becky
  Mm.
10. ABAsh Brandon
  Maybe felt kind of good. Maybe we got in a routine of having a family movie night or, you know, eating dinner on the couch, and we picked a movie and actually it really was a lovely thing.
11. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah.
12. ABAsh Brandon
  Maybe that's something we can continue to incorporate, and then maybe there are things where we know, okay, but we still gotta get out of the door on time or, um, something like that. And then we think about, okay, if that's the need of our family, um, how do I, how do I make sure that we're incorporating the need of our family and starting from that place when I'm thinking about our relationship with screen?
13. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah. So I, I just wanna double click on something because I, I do think you're right away doing something I, I think that happens for me a lot, too, like almost shifting the question before you answer it because I think especially with screens, there's just a lot of what's the right amount, what's the wrong amount, what's good screen time, what's bad screen time. We did too much in the summer. We need to cut back. And, a- and I think what you're saying is you're starting not with those questions, but from something around, like, what's going on in your family, what does your family need, what works. It's kind of a little more personalized or a little more focused on the family first. So c- can you just, like, flesh that out a little?
3:35 – 5:27
Three core principles: equity, balance, and making screens work for everyone
1. ABAsh Brandon
  Absolutely. So when I've been doing, like, this kind of focus on Instagram for the last few years, I've said that I have three main tenets.
2. BEDr. Becky
  Mm.
3. ABAsh Brandon
  And first is that screen time is in many ways a social inequity issue, which I'm happy to come back to and drag out my soapbox. The second is that screens can be a part of our lives without being the center of our lives, which I think is what many families really want for their kids. And then the third is that screen time should work for the whole family. We should be considering-
4. BEDr. Becky
  Mm
5. ABAsh Brandon
  ... the whole family.
6. BEDr. Becky
  Mm.
7. ABAsh Brandon
  I think we often get kind of myopically focused on our kids, for good reason, right? We're thinking about what this could do to them or how it could he- be helpful to them. And the reality is is that in many ways screen time is often functioning to help alleviate burden for adults.
8. BEDr. Becky
  Mm-hmm.
9. ABAsh Brandon
  Um, and m- a lot of that is not necessarily avoidable.
10. BEDr. Becky
  Mm-hmm.
11. ABAsh Brandon
  If I'm a single parent or I have a caregiver who, uh, is working, like, swing shift, and so I'm alone for big chunks of my parenting, there are gonna be things that need help.
12. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah.
13. ABAsh Brandon
  Like, I need a tool that's gonna help me lift that burden, and if I don't have other things available to me, something has to fill in that gap, and oftentimes it's going to be something like a screen. And we might wish that that's, there's something else to fill in for that, and that, I w- I would as well. It's not great that we sometimes have these gaps. And if this is something that can fill in those gaps, then instead of focusing just on a child, sometimes it helps to instead think, "Okay, not what is this doing to my child, but what is it allowing me to do for them?"
14. BEDr. Becky
  Mm.
15. ABAsh Brandon
  And I think that that can often guide what the purpose of it is and if it is working for all of us-
16. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah
17. ABAsh Brandon
  ... in the family.
5:27 – 8:00
Shame and fear sabotage good decisions—neutrality enables digital literacy
1. BEDr. Becky
  Well, one of the things I hear a lot from parents is, "Okay, I feel like my kid's on the screen too much, and, and then I feel like I, I'm such a bad parent. I'm so embarrassed. I don't want anyone to know." There's, there's so much shame, right? Um, and the irony also there is the things that we hold a lot of shame around, we actually can't even change. We might want to change them, but the shame keeps us so stuck. So what I'm responding to what you're saying is, like, let's, let's put the shame to the side here. Screens, you know, in our busy world can do a lot of different things for the family. It's not just about a kid. There's a lot going on. And maybe you do want to shift screen time, but thinking about it more from a place of- What actually works for my whole family? What will I feel good about going to bed at night? Not what's right, what's wrong, what's my neighbor doing. Like, not from kind of such a, a place of judgment.
2. ABAsh Brandon
  Absolutely. And [clears throat] I think when we come from that place of fear-
3. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah
4. ABAsh Brandon
  ... you know, fear is not empowering. You know, I'm, I'm not going to make my best decisions when I'm acting out of fear or shame. Um, and when we're focused on, like, the potential of what could go wrong, or thinking like, "Well, I need to minimize this as much as possible 'cause that's what I am sh- thinking of as healthy."
5. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah.
6. ABAsh Brandon
  Healthy doesn't always mean minimal.
7. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah.
8. ABAsh Brandon
  Um, and really what we want is something that's sustainable.
9. BEDr. Becky
  Mm.
10. ABAsh Brandon
  And we also recognize that, you know, our kids are going to grow up to be adults in a technologically driven world that we can't even really fully comprehend, I think.
11. BEDr. Becky
  Mm.
12. ABAsh Brandon
  Right? It's gonna be even different than the world that we're in, and how technolo- technologically driven it is. So our, really our goal is to also make sure that we're raising kids who are digitally literate-
13. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah
14. ABAsh Brandon
  ... and can be digitally safe. And that's hard to do if we are framing these things from a place of fear.
15. BEDr. Becky
  Mm-hmm.
16. ABAsh Brandon
  Um, I can give my kid and empower my child to have a relationship with technology that might work for them long term if I'm able to view them with a sense of neutrality.
17. BEDr. Becky
  Mm-hmm.
18. ABAsh Brandon
  And I think that that is really important, and I think that's very difficult for a lot of people because they associate, as you said, the amount of screen time that their kid has, it has some s- like, an inverse relationship with their value as a parent, right?
19. BEDr. Becky
  Mm.
20. ABAsh Brandon
  If their kid is on screens a lot, then they might think, "This is, this is bad parenting."
21. BEDr. Becky
  Mm-hmm.
22. ABAsh Brandon
  Like, "It might be benefiting me, but I shouldn't be doing that. I should be prioritizing my child." But that's where it comes back to what is it allowing?
23. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah.
24. ABAsh Brandon
  What is it allowing to have happen in our family?
8:00 – 12:46
A practical boundary-setting scenario: no morning screens for school days
1. BEDr. Becky
  Well, let's go through a few kind of scenarios. Like, let's get specific. So let's start with the parent who's saying, "Okay, maybe I'm not even judging myself hardcore, but, like, I just think we've gotta get school routines in order. You know, my kid," I'm making this up, "but my kid starts their day with hours on the screen in the summer. It's been fine. It is what it is. It's obviously not gonna work when we have to get out the door at 7:30, 6:45, 8:00, whatever it is. Um, a- and I'm nervous. Like, my kids freak out when I change the rules." And h- how, h- how do I go about that? Like, how do we start?
2. ABAsh Brandon
  Yeah, so in my book that's coming out, I have, the kind of last third is really devoted to really helping families, uh, make a structure that's going to work for them-
3. BEDr. Becky
  Mm
4. ABAsh Brandon
  ... and kind of walks through this process. But you already outlined some of what would go into it. So first we think about, okay, what's, what's the need?
5. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah.
6. ABAsh Brandon
  And if the need is like, we have to be out the door by 7:45, right, then that might already determine whether or not screens are gonna happen in the morning.
7. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah.
8. ABAsh Brandon
  Right? Maybe we know, "Well, my kid can barely get out of bed by 7:15, so I don't really think there's time in there."
9. BEDr. Becky
  [laughs]
10. ABAsh Brandon
  Or maybe they are a super early riser and there would be. And so if we know, okay, that's the need, then we can ask ourselves, "What input can I let my child contribute to this?"
11. BEDr. Becky
  Mm.
12. ABAsh Brandon
  And I think that is so important. People, regardless of age, we want to feel like we're contributing to a decision that involves us.
13. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah.
14. ABAsh Brandon
  And that doesn't mean that we are necessarily guiding it.
15. BEDr. Becky
  Mm-hmm.
16. ABAsh Brandon
  But if we feel like we have some agency and some input, and we're being, uh, listened to or considered, w- it's gonna go a long way to, I think, making a, a rule or a boundary that's going to have some buy-in.
17. BEDr. Becky
  Uh, so I think no one likes feeling done to. Uh, nobody-
18. ABAsh Brandon
  Yes
19. BEDr. Becky
  ... likes that at any age, right? But what is that line between, okay, what, what is input? What is, um, giving my kid my job, you know?
20. ABAsh Brandon
  Mm-hmm.
21. BEDr. Becky
  And asking them to do my job for me. So let's just take this scenario.
22. ABAsh Brandon
  Mm.
23. BEDr. Becky
  Let's say you have a kid, out the door by 7:45. Let's say this kid, you know, you decide screen time in the morning is just not, it's not gonna end up-
24. ABAsh Brandon
  Right
25. BEDr. Becky
  ... being great. Like, what are the, what's, like, the nitty-gritty? How, how should we go about that?
26. ABAsh Brandon
  With the input that they give?
27. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah.
28. ABAsh Brandon
  So if it's, you know what, my need is we're out the door by 7:45, this is sort of my non-negotiable.
29. BEDr. Becky
  Mm.
30. ABAsh Brandon
  Like, we can't suddenly leave at 8:00, right? And oftentimes in the morning, it's like, if we're at 7:45 and 45 seconds, that can, like, throw off-
12:46 – 17:20
The video game lesson: sturdy rules + freedom inside the boundaries
1. ABAsh Brandon
  Absolutely. And what I think is so funny is that that framework-
2. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah
3. ABAsh Brandon
  ... of, like, having some very clear boundaries or rules or non-negotiables, whatever word you wanna use, that really is how video games work, which is what-
4. BEDr. Becky
  Ooh, tell me more.
5. ABAsh Brandon
  So think about, um-
6. BEDr. Becky
  I feel like now I'm, like, in-
7. ABAsh Brandon
  [laughs]
8. BEDr. Becky
  You know that, what is it? The, like, uh, not The Matrix, but I'm like, this is like a meta conversation-
9. ABAsh Brandon
  [laughs]
10. BEDr. Becky
  ... about the conversation. I'm, I'm excited.
11. ABAsh Brandon
  Um, have you played a video game before, of any kind?
12. BEDr. Becky
  I feel-
13. ABAsh Brandon
  This is very-
14. BEDr. Becky
  I'm gonna de-shame myself
15. ABAsh Brandon
  ... this is very revealing.
16. BEDr. Becky
  I know.
17. ABAsh Brandon
  [laughs]
18. BEDr. Becky
  I, I am not, I, I have not really played that many video games.
19. ABAsh Brandon
  But, like, have you played Pac-Man? Like-
20. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
21. ABAsh Brandon
  Okay.
22. BEDr. Becky
  Of course.
23. ABAsh Brandon
  Okay.
24. BEDr. Becky
  Okay, of course.
25. ABAsh Brandon
  You, you never know. Like, [laughs] so okay, uh, is that a good example to use?
26. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah, great.
27. ABAsh Brandon
  Pac-Man? Okay.
28. BEDr. Becky
  Great.
29. ABAsh Brandon
  So, like, you're playing Pac-Man.
30. BEDr. Becky
  Or Super Mario, like back in the day-
17:20 – 18:18
Expect protests: tantrums are often the first ‘reward’ of consistency
1. ABAsh Brandon
  [laughs]
2. BEDr. Becky
  Uh, there's no prizes-
3. ABAsh Brandon
  No
4. BEDr. Becky
  ... in real life.
5. ABAsh Brandon
  No, no.
6. BEDr. Becky
  No coins.
7. ABAsh Brandon
  There, yeah, and there's no, like-
8. BEDr. Becky
  Power-ups and... Yeah. [laughs]
9. ABAsh Brandon
  No. I know. Which is, is, one of the things I always say is, like, I think about boundaries a lot, and, you know, I think people have some unconscious fantasy for me, that, like, I go over to my kids, and let's say it is screen time. Screen time is over, and you're allowed to be upset, and my kid's like, "Mom, you are such a sturdy leader."
10. BEDr. Becky
  [laughs]
11. ABAsh Brandon
  "I really love you. You're really crushing it right now. Two coins." It's never happened.
12. BEDr. Becky
  No.
13. ABAsh Brandon
  You usually get rewarded with a tantrum at first. That's usually the reward. [laughs] Like, you know, "Why? Ah." You know? Um, although over time, if you are relatively consistent-
14. BEDr. Becky
  Mm-hmm
15. ABAsh Brandon
  ... none of us are all the time, uh, then those reactions decrease because on some level, your kid thinks, "This is how the world works. I got it now. I'll move on to the next one to test." [laughs]
16. BEDr. Becky
  Exactly. Right. There's that feeling of consistency.
17. ABAsh Brandon
  Yes.
18. BEDr. Becky
  And that doesn't necessarily mean they like it.
19. ABAsh Brandon
  Yeah.
20. BEDr. Becky
  And, um, we also know, and I know this is something you say a lot, is I take a lot of-
18:18 – 23:35
Screens, food, and the division of responsibility (plus the playground reframe)
1. ABAsh Brandon
  Um, I do a lot of comparisons between video games or technology and food.
2. BEDr. Becky
  Mm.
3. ABAsh Brandon
  And I think a lot about the division of responsibility model with food. You know, parent or an adult is-
4. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah
5. ABAsh Brandon
  ... in control of what-
6. BEDr. Becky
  El- like Ellyn Satter, yeah
7. ABAsh Brandon
  ... Ellyn Satter, yeah.
8. BEDr. Becky
  Love Ellyn
9. ABAsh Brandon
  . Of what, what is available and when, right?
10. BEDr. Becky
  Mm-hmm.
11. ABAsh Brandon
  And a child decides how much to eat of what's available. Well, I really think about screens the same way. An adult decides what content is available-
12. BEDr. Becky
  Uh-huh
13. ABAsh Brandon
  ... and when.
14. BEDr. Becky
  Uh-huh.
15. ABAsh Brandon
  And a child decides what to do within the content that is allowed-
16. BEDr. Becky
  Mm
17. ABAsh Brandon
  ... which might mean they're doing something ridiculous for that half hour because they're testing a rule. But I think the other part that's really important is that a child's job is also to have feelings about it.
18. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah.
19. ABAsh Brandon
  And wow, they're really good at that part of their job.
20. BEDr. Becky
  They really-
21. ABAsh Brandon
  They-
22. BEDr. Becky
  It seems like every generation we're getting a little better.
23. ABAsh Brandon
  [laughs]
24. BEDr. Becky
  [laughs] It's a lot of, a lot of range of feelings. No.
25. ABAsh Brandon
  [laughs]
26. BEDr. Becky
  No, it, it really is true. And look, you know, one of the reframes, whether we're talking about screen time or anything else with boundaries, is when you realize your kid's big feelings are actually a sign you just set a boundary. 'Cause some parents know it's hard for me to set boundaries, and I'm working on setting boundaries, and it is true. It would be amazing if the world worked where it's hard for me to set a boundary, so when I set a boundary, I get coins and unicorns and rainbows and, you know, that would... and an ice cream cone. Uh, that doesn't happen. But having a signal is helpful. So if you start realizing, my kid's whining and complaining or protesting, it's not the, it's not the sign I would choose, but it is a sign that I just set a boundary. It, it's, uh, I think it's less likely you interpret it as a sign you're doing something wrong, and actually a sign you're doing your job, right?
27. ABAsh Brandon
  Yes. And I think with technology, and particularly with screens, I think it ju- it hits a little bit differently.
28. BEDr. Becky
  Yes.
29. ABAsh Brandon
  I think for a lot of parents, 'cause in that moment, I think we're in that place mentally where we might already be wrestling with, should I even allow this? Should I have said yes to this? I'm worried about what it might do. And then if at the end they're protesting, we reasonably are thinking, like, there's that part of your brain, or at least my brain-
30. BEDr. Becky
  Yes
23:35 – 29:05
Leisure isn’t a moral failure: unpacking adult triggers about ‘productivity’
1. ABAsh Brandon
  And also, and then I think this is part of it, too, it's okay to have leisure be leisure.
2. BEDr. Becky
  Mm.
3. ABAsh Brandon
  And I think with something like screens or video games or more passive activities in terms of, like, their product- productivity-
4. BEDr. Becky
  Right
5. ABAsh Brandon
  ... I think we might look at that and go, "Well, they, but they could've been doing something better with their time." But leisure for the sake of leisure is also valid.
6. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah.
7. ABAsh Brandon
  And everybody deserves that, and that includes our kids.
8. BEDr. Becky
  Okay, so now, this is, like, this is, like, not on my questions, like, [laughs] throw these out. But you just, you know, brought something up in me. I'll never forget talking to my therapist years ago, and I was talking about coming home with our kids, being exhausted on Sundays, 'cause we often would travel for the weekend, and so tired, and, you know, my kids would go off and do their thing, and my husband would be on the couch, like, chilling for a little bit. And I was just telling my therapist, like- Something's wrong with him. Like, I don't understand. Like, there's so much to unpack. There's so much to unpack, and, like, like, I, I don't get it. And, like, uh, then we get in a fight, of course, and I'll never forget my therapist saying, "I think you need his help." And I was like, "Yeah, I know." And he goes, "Just let me finish." He goes, "I think you need his help sitting on the couch. Literally."
9. ABAsh Brandon
  [laughs]
10. BEDr. Becky
  Like, "I don't think you heard me."
11. ABAsh Brandon
  Is he paying you secretly or no? [laughs]
12. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah, like, literally, like, what the fresh heck is happening, because, like, you ... No, no, he needs to help me, and he's like, y- you sound really tired, and, like, some version of rest is not a reward, and also, if I'm gonna be direct, I think you're so triggered, because there's a part of you that wants to sit on the couch, and you don't know how to give yourself permission.
13. ABAsh Brandon
  Oh.
14. BEDr. Becky
  I was like, "Damn it."
15. ABAsh Brandon
  Ugh.
16. BEDr. Becky
  Why does it always come back to us?
17. ABAsh Brandon
  Oh.
18. BEDr. Becky
  But I think, is this all connected to, like, when I see my kids, you're like, "Yeah, it is connected."
19. ABAsh Brandon
  Well, keep going, 'cause I'm, I, I wanna do the fully-
20. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah, like, I see them, and I feel like you could be reading, like, you could be doing art. Like, can we finish this? Let's play a family board game. I do love board games, and, like, I, I just, it- it's, it- it's hard for me to, it's hard for m- maybe it's just it's hard for me to stay neutral. I haven't thought about that word since b- you've been saying it. It's hard for me to stay neutral.
21. ABAsh Brandon
  Yeah. I hadn't really, uh, thought of it quite in the terms that you have. I often think of it from the kind of weight that we put on, um, our own parenting, like, ability or our goodness as a parent, and I think we want to do right by our kids, and we want to always be doing the best for our kids, and that is a noble thing. That's not a bad thing. And so if our kids are doing something like using their iPad or watching a movie, we kind of put into that all the things we can think of that we think hold more value. This is a reason that-
22. BEDr. Becky
  Mm
23. ABAsh Brandon
  ... there's a phrase of, um, like, think about what is screen time replacing, and I have taken a lot of umbrage with this phrase.
24. BEDr. Becky
  Mm.
25. ABAsh Brandon
  Because if you're coming from a place of thinking of screens as bad, you're gonna fill that, what they could be doing instead, with every single thing that you can think of-
26. BEDr. Becky
  Mm
27. ABAsh Brandon
  ... that would be better, right? And it might, maybe that's, you know, they could be playing a board game-
28. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah
29. ABAsh Brandon
  ... instead of a video game. They could be reading a book instead of reading the words on the screen. They could be... You're gonna come up with this litany of things. And, um, so it, it really means, like, well, then we're not thinking of it as, like, a tool. We're f- not thinking of it in this neutral place, and I think it's a big part of our own judgment of ourselves of, um, feeling like, well, if they're doing this and they're just doing it for fun, which is a valid reason to do it, but if they're just doing it for fun, it's, uh, almost as if we're condoning it.
30. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah, like, I guess I have, um, almost like, I'm just thinking about it now. It's coming up for me as I'm saying it. It's, like, a fear of laziness or it's, like, gonna, you know, take over and crowd out the other stuff. And, um, I think what you're saying is, like, just putting screens aside, like, what is our relationship with rest, with just, you know, fun, with something that's not, quote, "productive toward an outcome"? Because if we know as an adult that we have some, like, stuff there, that'll probably act itself out a little bit in how we approach our, like, you know, screen time with kids.
29:05 – 31:59
Is there ‘too much’ screen time? Shift from minutes to what’s working
1. BEDr. Becky
  So maybe this is, like, an overly simplistic question, um, but, like, is there a such thing as too much screen time? Would it be like that is a thing?
2. ABAsh Brandon
  Yeah.
3. BEDr. Becky
  Okay.
4. ABAsh Brandon
  Yeah.
5. BEDr. Becky
  Mm-hmm.
6. ABAsh Brandon
  Um, so depends kinda how you wanna define that.
7. BEDr. Becky
  Totally.
8. ABAsh Brandon
  I know a lot of the, like, research literature that looks at impacts of different amounts and, um, quantifies things like more problematic relationships with gaming or screen time, they tend to define excessive use as, uh, um, generally, like, four or more hours per day, but even that depends on the study you're reading. They might be talking about, like, just playing a video game. They might be talking about-
9. BEDr. Becky
  Mm-hmm
10. ABAsh Brandon
  ... different uses of screens. And when it comes down to, you know, our, our real lives-
11. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah
12. ABAsh Brandon
  ... I'll sometimes have families who reach out and say, like, "Okay, but if my kid is on a Chromebook at school, does that count?"
13. BEDr. Becky
  Mm.
14. ABAsh Brandon
  "What if they're typing in a document? What if they're reading an e-book? Does that count?" And it's so easy to get into the-
15. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah
16. ABAsh Brandon
  ... granular minutia, and that's why I like to sort of pull back and instead ask, like, is this an amount that is working for everyone and allowing us to get our needs met, and is it also, like, sustainable in terms of the management I have to put in?
17. BEDr. Becky
  Right.
18. ABAsh Brandon
  Right? Like, if I am letting my kid watch a 30-minute episode of PAW Patrol while I make dinner, but- Then at the end, it's a 25-minute meltdown to end it, well, then that-
19. BEDr. Becky
  Mm
20. ABAsh Brandon
  ... I'm not getting it.
21. BEDr. Becky
  Right. [laughs]
22. ABAsh Brandon
  Like, I'm having to invest a lot of time-
23. BEDr. Becky
  Yes
24. ABAsh Brandon
  ... to get that 30 minutes. But that is information. And so instead of immediately being like, "I knew it. I shouldn't have let you watch that," if instead we go, "Okay, what, what about this?" Coming back to the need, what's the need? If the need is I have no other caregiver, and I wanna make a meal that isn't frozen chicken nuggets for the third day in a row, and I need to be able to safely be in my kitchen, and so I need my kid occupied, okay, that's the need. Then yeah, a screen might be the tool that you need in that moment, if there isn't another one available.
25. BEDr. Becky
  Mm-hmm.
26. ABAsh Brandon
  And if that's my need, okay, if today, wow, Paw Patrol really did not work, that was rough, what can I change?
27. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah.
28. ABAsh Brandon
  I can't change that I need that need met. I can't change that I don't have another caregiver a- available. I can't change if we don't have access to a playground that my kid can play alone at. But I could change what show they watch, or maybe I change going to the park right before so they've had some big input, and maybe that makes, like, the dysregulation not as impactful that day. So that neutrality allows us to see-
29. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah
30. ABAsh Brandon
  ... it as data, as information.
31:59 – 37:21
Dopamine, effort, and building tolerance for ‘slow rewards’
1. BEDr. Becky
  And, and the layer that I often think about when parents ask me these questions is I think there's, there's so many, there's so many other factors here, because one of the things I think about a lot with screens, again, is not moral, not good or bad. But one of the things I think we all want for our kids is for them to learn that success, that excitement, that dopamine, you know, does not always come quickly or to them. It's not something they can just easily consume. And for example, like, I sometimes need to work hard before I get success. I can create things, and it's messy, and I can take ideas inside me and make towers or, or do things, right? Now, I agree, like, that does not have to be mutually exclusive with screens, but when I'm often talking to families about is an amount working, to me, where often families say it's stopping working or where they maybe wish they did things a little differently, is where they see this pattern of my kid is almost so accustomed to, quote, "success" and dopamine coming to them with relatively little effort that their tolerance for other forms of play, their tolerance for learning how to read, which is just a lot of effort, I see it lower. And so in the early years, the one, the things I say to parents is it's not about ... I, I, again, every family's so different. I hate the idea of, like, this is the amount, or this is like, every family's different. I don't know what's going on. There's so many factors. Equity is a huge thing, too. But to just think, like, does my kid have opportunities where, by the way, I'll probably have to tolerate their frustration. They're gonna whine. They're gonna tantrum, right? But where they are building kind of some emotion regulation skills for working hard at something and sticking with things, um, and trying things and negotiating and doing things that are really complex without some immediate reward, I think is, like, a really, it's an important offset.
2. ABAsh Brandon
  Absolutely. I, um, I remember actually the, the other con- conversation that we had about screens.
3. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah.
4. ABAsh Brandon
  You framed something in a particular way that I come back to and think about all the time, and it was similar to this, and it was more from the kind of more extreme side, talking to, um, I think people you'd worked with who were in, um, like, coming out of addiction, but with substances-
5. BEDr. Becky
  Yes
6. ABAsh Brandon
  ... not with technology. And I remember you saying something about, like, if we're trying to find something to, that can kind of function as not, like, a direct supplement, but we're trying to kind of shift that, you know, it's not going to be as satisfying, right?
7. BEDr. Becky
  Yes. [laughs]
8. ABAsh Brandon
  If I am suffering, if I am in an addictive relationship with, like, a substance, right, like, and I'm suddenly like, "I'm gonna do yoga," you know [laughs] like-
9. BEDr. Becky
  Not gonna feel as good-
10. ABAsh Brandon
  Yeah
11. BEDr. Becky
  ... as fast.
12. ABAsh Brandon
  Right.
13. BEDr. Becky
  Nope. [laughs]
14. ABAsh Brandon
  It's not gonna be the same, right?
15. BEDr. Becky
  Right. [laughs]
16. ABAsh Brandon
  So we, we can't find a direct substitute, and I think what you're saying, too, is that we don't want necessarily to find a direct substitute.
17. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah.
18. ABAsh Brandon
  So one of the things that screens are very good at is they are very good at providing dense, immediate, and consistent feedback.
19. BEDr. Becky
  Yes.
20. ABAsh Brandon
  And s- uh, in ways that the real world just doesn't do.
21. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah.
22. ABAsh Brandon
  Like, and would be nice sometimes if it would. But even if I'm a two-year-old and I'm trying to balance blocks, right, versus, like, a block tower on an iPad, right, those blocks on that iPad, they're always gonna have the same center of gravity, and they're always gonna go the same way, and they might have the same, like, wobbly animation every time, so I know I have to make an adjustment. And all of that is gonna be a lot more immediate-
23. BEDr. Becky
  Yes
24. ABAsh Brandon
  ... and a lot more consistent than the physical blocks. Um, so I like to frame things that is thinking not as a substitute, but instead as a supplement.
25. BEDr. Becky
  Uh, yes, I think that's it.
26. ABAsh Brandon
  Yeah.
27. BEDr. Becky
  We're both like, it's a part of your world-
28. ABAsh Brandon
  Right
29. BEDr. Becky
  ... and not all of your world.
30. ABAsh Brandon
  Right. And I've had that same conversation at, in my own household when it came to, like, coloring.
37:21 – 40:02
From fear to skill-building: the ‘pool’ metaphor for older kids and real risks
1. ABAsh Brandon
  I think the other aspect I'd just add that I think we've talked a lot around, but maybe not directly about is there are r- many reasons that are, like, reasonable to have fear when it comes to technology.
2. BEDr. Becky
  Mm.
3. ABAsh Brandon
  I think especially as our kids get older, we start feeling afraid of things that could be bad or dangerous or feel really just scary. Um, and we want to, obviously we want to protect our kids. And, um, we, at least for myself, I don't tend to do my best parenting or even, like, existing when I am coming from a place of fear, 'cause all I can really do is react. I can't really be particularly proactive.
4. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah.
5. ABAsh Brandon
  And I think with things like as kids get older and we're thinking about, like, smartphones or social media and all the, all the things that can come with that, um, we want to shield our kids from it, and again, I think that's, like, a reasonable concern that people have, and they want to shield their kids from it. And I like to make a comparison to thinking about pools. We just mentioned pools a few minutes ago, but thinking about pools, because pools are fun, have a lot of opportunity, bodies of water can enrich your life, and they are inherently dangerous.
6. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah.
7. ABAsh Brandon
  Right? Like, we are not born suddenly able to swim and navigate and do all those things. And w- we also know that because a pool or body of water is dangerous, we have to give our kids the skills they need to navigate that thing.
8. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah.
9. ABAsh Brandon
  So what I try to do in conversations like, conversations like this, but also in my book, is to really emphasize how am I thinking about the skills that my child may need to navigate something, even if it's just balance-
10. BEDr. Becky
  Yeah
11. ABAsh Brandon
  ... between responsibilities and leisure. Both are valid. We also have to find a way to make them all work, and something like being able to navigate something that can be dangerous. And when we're able to see through to the skill instead of focusing on the fear I have-
12. BEDr. Becky
  Mm-hmm
13. ABAsh Brandon
  ... about what could go wrong, then we're able to empower our child and empower ourselves, and I think that when we're coming from a place of fear, we're not going to be empowered. We're not gonna be able to empower them, but being able to focus on the skill, and then we can help them see all the ways that applies, and then that helps them in their lives as they grow up, whether it's in the digital world or the real world.
14. BEDr. Becky
  I love that, the shift from fear to empowerment and skills, so thank you. That's a great note to end on.
15. ABAsh Brandon
  Absolutely.
16. BEDr. Becky
  Well, thank you.
17. ABAsh Brandon
  Thank you.
18. BEDr. Becky
  Look forward to talking to you again soon.
19. ABAsh Brandon
  Thank you for having me.
40:02 – 41:10
Dr. Becky’s takeaway and grounding closing ritual
1. BEDr. Becky
  I don't know about you, but for me, the biggest thing I took from the conversation is realizing how loaded screen time is, and actually how I can make better decisions that I feel good about with my kids when I do kinda strip away the shame and I look at it as one part of their life, and figuring out what works for the family and not adding such an intense layer of judgment. That will actually help me show up in a way I feel prouder about. Anyway, let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground, place a hand on your heart, and let's remind ourselves, even as I struggle on the outside, I remain good inside. I can't wait to see you next time. [outro music]