A Funny Take on Millennial Parenting with Ilana Glazer

Dr. Becky Kennedy 0:00 [upbeat music]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 0:08 Hi, Ilana.

Ilana Glazer 0:09 Hi, Dr. Becky, also known as Rebecca Kennedy.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 0:13 [laughs]

Ilana Glazer 0:13 I'm obsessed. [laughs] I'm so grateful. I'm so excited. This is, um, this is way more, like, street cred, celeb currency to my best friends than other celebrities who are famous for whatever.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 0:31 Aw.

Ilana Glazer 0:31 I'm thrilled.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 0:32 Well-

Ilana Glazer 0:32 Not about the currency, but my own personal love for you and your work.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 0:34 Two things can be true.

Ilana Glazer 0:35 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 0:36 [laughs] Be thrilled for both.

Ilana Glazer 0:37 That's right. Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 0:38 [laughs]

Ilana Glazer 0:38 Well, I'm so excited. You're so smart, and you make me proud to be a p- a millennial parent, you know?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 0:47 Aw. Well, that is like the nicest thing someone's ever said to me, so thank you. I will take that in. I feel like I've gotten better at that. I used to be like, "Oh, no. No, no, no," and then it's like, no, that feels good. And this work is so hard, so we all need some affirmation [laughs] to keep going.

Ilana Glazer 1:01 That's so from our, like, teen years in the early 2000s. Somebody gives you a compliment and you're like, "No."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:06 Right?

Ilana Glazer 1:07 It's like, no?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:08 Right.

Ilana Glazer 1:08 It's their truth about you, you know? It's like not even, ugh.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:12 For me, eh, this whole thing, I really mean this, I really believe that everyone has all the ingredients they need inside them.

Ilana Glazer 1:20 Mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:20 That we have those resources. We've all built up layers, and probably especially us women, so many layers to kind of block access to-

Ilana Glazer 1:28 Mm. Mm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:28 ... our power, our strength, our desire, what we want-

Ilana Glazer 1:31 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:31 ... the ability to tolerate doing things even when other people are inconvenienced. Again, no baby's ever born saying, like, "Oh, I want more milk, but my mom's gonna be upset-"

Ilana Glazer 1:40 Mm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:40 ... "so I'm not gonna cry." [laughs]

Ilana Glazer 1:41 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:41 Like, we obviously all have that within us. And so one of the reasons I think I initially was like, "No, no, no," is 'cause I'm like, wait, this is not... I really mean this. I don't think I insert knowledge into someone. I'm like, we all need a guide to just get back to that. But I know in my life, when I have found books or people who've really touched me and been part of my journey and been a guide for me, that's still really, really significant-

Ilana Glazer 2:06 Mm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 2:07 ... you know, to feel like there's something that really speaks to something within you.

Ilana Glazer 2:10 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 2:10 I'm so honored to meet you.

Ilana Glazer 2:12 Mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 2:12 Thank you.

Ilana Glazer 2:12 Thanks so much. It's like, what you're making me think of right now is, um, [smacks lips] actually goes back to what I was saying about being proud to be a millennial parent because I think, uh, millennials are kind of the first generation to be so, um, [smacks lips] not casually therapized, but, like, it's not a shameful thing anymore. And I think when, when a lot of us were getting into it in our 20s, it was like a big deal, and now it's, like, either a thing that we did that really helped or it's just not, it's just, there's not as much of a stigma in seeking out, uh, help with your mental health.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 2:43 Yeah.

Ilana Glazer 2:44 And I think that, or I like to believe that millennials have, um, the most formed sense of accountability emotionally, where, like, we know that it's our thing. In fact, even complimenting you, that's my thing because I need you to be the person that you are for me on Instagram. And I guess I [laughs] also am hoping you like me.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 3:10 [laughs]

Ilana Glazer 3:11 So I'm like, "I really like you," you know what I mean? But I'm like, uh, the- these are my things as well. Like, it doesn't even, um, it doesn't necessarily mean that you, um, that I expect you to be the person that I think you are or something. It's like more of an offering, and I think that we... I like to believe that millennials are imparting this accountability and separateness from their children-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 3:33 Mm

Ilana Glazer 3:33 ... more than any generation before.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 3:35 Say more about that.

Ilana Glazer 3:37 You know, this, like, sort of, like, gentle parenting and, and, you know, there's, like, sort of branding, but it's like, gentle parenting. You mean parenting?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 3:45 [laughs]

Ilana Glazer 3:45 It's been so harsh. It's been so harsh that, you know, it's supposed to be gentle. And what's harsh is, like, the societal structure around this cosmically magical experience we should all be free to and supported in enjoying as much as we possibly can.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 4:04 Mm-hmm.

Ilana Glazer 4:04 I just think that, um, the accountability for, like, ugh, those were my feelings. You know what I mean?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 4:10 [laughs]

Ilana Glazer 4:10 And, like, my kid, you said something that my husband and I repeat all the time is, like, "She's not giving me a hard time. She's having a hard time."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 4:16 Yeah.

Ilana Glazer 4:17 And while that phrase really helped me and helped us and helps us consistently, I think that you gave words to a sense that our generation is having-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 4:27 Yeah

Ilana Glazer 4:27 ... more than before.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 4:29 Yeah.

Ilana Glazer 4:29 You know, in the '90s, it's like, "Knock it off."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 4:32 [laughs]

Ilana Glazer 4:32 You know what I mean? And it's like, "Shut up back there," or whatever. And it's like, no, in fact, that parent is having a hard time. I now look back on-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 4:39 Right

Ilana Glazer 4:39 ... you know, those, like, 30-year-olds, like, struggling to raise their two or three kids in the isolated suburbs of wherever.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 4:46 Uh-huh.

Ilana Glazer 4:46 Um, but, you know, as a kid, n- not that my parents were like that, but that was the parenting culture-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 4:53 Mm-hmm

Ilana Glazer 4:53 ... in the '90s and 2000s when I was a kid growing up on Long Island, and it was like, "These people, like, think we work for them." You know what I mean? And like-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 5:02 Yeah. Well, what it's making me think is yes, that classic harsh parenting that I do think has been at least American parenting for, like, a very long time.

Ilana Glazer 5:10 Ugh, ugh.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 5:10 Right? You, your kid acts out, and you're like, "S- go to your room," or, "You can't talk to me that way," and you kind of just... I often think you just get to vomit your own frustration onto your kid in the moment and call it discipline.

Ilana Glazer 5:23 Mm, mm, mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 5:23 I don't know. That's all it really is. Like, I don't wanna feel the hard thing I'm feeling this moment, so I'm just gonna kind of make you feel that way instead. And we call it kind of discipline or keeping your kids in line, although i- it's just, that would never be tolerated anymore, at least in, like, the workplace. I don't even think sports coaches really coach that way if they're trying to optimize, you know, an athlete's [laughs] performance. Um, and when I'm asked-

Ilana Glazer 5:49 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 5:50 ... often, like, "Dr. Becky at Good Inside, it seems like you guys don't really do punishments," which by the way, I'm always like, well, of course I naturally scream at them sometimes. It's just so natural- [laughs]

Ilana Glazer 5:57 Oh, thank you

Dr. Becky Kennedy 5:57 ... to come out with them.

Ilana Glazer 5:58 Thanks for saying that.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 5:58 But it, I, I never think it's effective.

Ilana Glazer 6:01 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:01 And someone will say, "Well, is that soft?" And, and in line with what you're saying, I'm like, you know what's soft, like really soft? Your kid is tantruming, and that is enough to put you into a tizzy and say things that you don't even intend to follow up on, and lose it in front of your child. Right? Where, you know, recently I was talking to a parent who was like, "Ugh, my kid says like, 'You're the worst dad.'" And I'm like, "It's insane. I can't let him get away with that." And he was a sports person. I was like, "Imagine LeBron James being with a kid, and the kid's like, 'You're the worst basketball player.' And LeBron's like, 'Sorry, Becky, I cannot let that kid get away with that. You cannot say that to me."

Ilana Glazer 6:41 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:42 And you're like, whoa, LeBron. [laughs]

Ilana Glazer 6:43 Wow, right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:43 Okay.

Ilana Glazer 6:44 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:44 Like, is your self-esteem-

Ilana Glazer 6:46 Right

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:46 ... that fragile?

Ilana Glazer 6:47 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:48 Just move on.

Ilana Glazer 6:49 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:50 Right?

Ilana Glazer 6:50 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:50 And I think anyone would say that's, that's, that's, like, pathetic.

Ilana Glazer 6:54 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:55 They would. Like-

Ilana Glazer 6:55 Yes

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:55 ... you let this child-

Ilana Glazer 6:57 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:57 ... eviscerate your power because of their words that they happened to say when they were feeling out of control because they don't yet have the skills to, like, manage that.

Ilana Glazer 7:06 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:06 We would say that's soft that someone-

Ilana Glazer 7:08 Right

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:08 ... was that able to be tipped over.

Ilana Glazer 7:10 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:10 But in parenting, we say that's, [laughs] that's like discipline, right? Doesn't make sense.

Ilana Glazer 7:15 You're so right. Like, we don't even, like, talk this way at work anymore. It's considered, like, t- in TV and film, these are considered toxic environments-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:24 Yes

Ilana Glazer 7:24 ... where people talk this way.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:26 Yeah.

Ilana Glazer 7:26 Yeah, it's crazy.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:27 And I, I, I don't know if it's because kids just are the most vulnerable. They don't know what they deserve. They can't speak up for themselves, right?

Ilana Glazer 7:33 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:33 So if they did band together, they'd be like, "This doesn't, this doesn't feel good. It also just doesn't make sense."

Ilana Glazer 7:39 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:39 "You're not helping us become the adults you want us to become."

Ilana Glazer 7:43 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:43 Um, but there are, I think, a number of adults now and parents who are saying not only does that stuff not feel good to kids or adults, you know, 'cause we remember it not feeling good to us anyway, but it's not working. And that-

Ilana Glazer 7:57 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:57 ... there's a better way, and that better way, we don't have to go from one extreme to the [laughs] other. Like, I feel like often it's like, "Oh, so you don't punish, so everything's okay?" There's, like, so much space between those two extremes.

Ilana Glazer 8:06 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 8:06 Right? No, that's not what it means. Um, and I think it feels, it, it, it feels right. [laughs] I mean, that's what happened for me. I was trained to teach every parent how to do punishments and timeouts and sticker charts and-

Ilana Glazer 8:19 You were trained?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 8:20 Yes, as a psychologist.

Ilana Glazer 8:22 To do punishments and sticker charts?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 8:24 Yes.

Ilana Glazer 8:25 Oh, oh, oh, ew.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 8:25 I know.

Ilana Glazer 8:26 Ew.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 8:27 And, and I, and I have to admit... I'm sorry, I always think admit can be upgraded to share.

Ilana Glazer 8:31 Ugh.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 8:32 Admit is shame.

Ilana Glazer 8:33 I'm, uh, couples therapy, I'm like, "I'm finding myself admitting all these things," but share is, that's a nice swap.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 8:37 It can always be swapped. So I'm gonna share that I was in this program, it was after my PhD where I said I wanna work with parents. I'm getting a lot of referrals from parents. And I think at the time I just thought, well, I should get more education. I always like learning, so let me go to the place that teaches people like me as a psychologist how to work with parents with their kids. And it was very esteemed. Everyone's like, "Oh my goodness, you got into this place, this program." And it was how to deliver timeouts, sticker charts, ignoring, praise, and essentially, I remember, I remember being very excited.

Ilana Glazer 9:10 Ignoring.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 9:10 That's the share. That's the sharing. I, I was very excited, 'cause I think the left part of our brain really lights up. It's so linear and logical.

Ilana Glazer 9:19 Mm, mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 9:19 That you're like, "Amazing, I'm gonna reward the good to get more of the good. I'm gonna..." And this was the word, they said, "Extinguish-

Ilana Glazer 9:27 Oh

Dr. Becky Kennedy 9:27 ... the bad to get less of the bad." And you never wondered, well, like, how are we raising humans that we... No one ever talked about that. [laughs]

Ilana Glazer 9:32 Right. Extinguish, I'm like gagging-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 9:34 Right?

Ilana Glazer 9:34 ... on that word.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 9:35 Eh.

Ilana Glazer 9:36 I know.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 9:37 Why are you gagging on that word?

Ilana Glazer 9:39 It's literally reminding me of learning about the Holocaust in Hebrew school. Scary. Because honestly, these systems, like, do ex- extinguish parts of our humanity, and, like, do extend to these violent structures we live among, beside, within, and it, th- that, like, that systemic, um, dehumanizing, this is, the, these, these parenting tactics that we've been taught for so long are an extension of that. Um, [laughs] so it's just-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:09 Yeah

Ilana Glazer 10:09 ... like, putting a very fine point on it for me. Because it, it, it does not, um... This is a system that, and a curriculum that, a curriculum in your literal specific sense, but also, like, I started, in my, like, stand-up special I talk about, you know, developing early, and I started babysitting at nine years old. And, you know, even at that point, this curriculum about childcare that we've learned for so long is really dehumanizing. And, um, it is aiming to make our children our employees, and it's sad. It makes me sad.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:48 Uh, I, I think the word dehumanizing just really sticks, that I just think about in my worst moments as an adult, like in my worst moments, the idea that someone is treating me kind of in a way that's consistent with seeing me as that worst moment, like I just must be that person-

Ilana Glazer 11:06 Mm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 11:07 ... right, is so spiraling. Like, in your worst moments, you definitely don't need someone to s- throw you a party. That's, you know, [laughs] that one, "Oh, I love you when you're like this." But you need someone, and it's gonna sound cheesy, who can set a boundary and stop you from self-destructing 'cause you're not in a good place or making good decisions. You need someone to see the good inside you when you can't feel it for yourself.

Ilana Glazer 11:27 Mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 11:27 You need it. Like, we're relational beings. We all operate with people in some degree, definitely our kids, we're, we're their mirrors. We reflect back to them who they are, and that's how they form their identity, and then their identity dictates their behaviors going forward. And so when they hit, and we're like, and by the way, all the words, [laughs] you'll appreciate this, someone saying, "You're always so good at, like, acting out what parents shouldn't say." I'm like, I'm not really, like, acting it out.

Ilana Glazer 11:50 Mm-hmm. [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 11:51 I'm just reliving the things I've said-

Ilana Glazer 11:53 Uh-huh

Dr. Becky Kennedy 11:53 ... to my children. [laughs]

Ilana Glazer 11:54 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 11:54 Like, I'm not an actress. Um, "What's wrong with you? Go to your room. Your sister would never do this," right? Or it co- "You're, you're like a sociopath. You don't even care about anyone." Okay, so there's that moment, but kids don't learn from moments. They learn from themes and patterns. And what a kid takes in isn't, "Wait, I think my parent just means that I can't hit and I just have to manage my anger." They d- it's way too nuance- nuanced. They just think- M- m- like, the person I care about the most who kind of knows who I am, they're my parent, they're my safest, most important adult, is looking at me like I'm an evil, awful, dehumanized-

Ilana Glazer 12:28 Mm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:28 ... person.

Ilana Glazer 12:29 Mm, mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:29 And if that happens over and over, kids, kids believe the way we look at them.

Ilana Glazer 12:36 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:37 [laughs]

Ilana Glazer 12:37 Yeah. The, the admission you were making when you shared about, uh, getting into this special program was that you were excited about-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:45 Yes

Ilana Glazer 12:45 ... this curriculum, yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:47 I was. I mean, I just, when I was doing it, you know what? We l- I think, maybe I'm just talking about me, I like things that are nuanced, but there's still this part of my brain that likes things to be-

Ilana Glazer 12:57 Totally

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:57 ... very linear and clear.

Ilana Glazer 12:59 Clear.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:59 And if I have this input, I will get this output. And I think the reason parents like timeouts and punishments and sticker charts is 'cause I think the worst part of parenting is when you just don't understand your kid.

Ilana Glazer 13:10 Mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 13:11 You think the worst part of parenting is when your kids act out and they have annoying behaviors. I don't enjoy that particularly. Having said that, the thing about those situations that spiral us isn't the behavior, it's not understanding it and being really confused. And I think in those moments of confusion, if you have something that gives you something crisp and clear-

Ilana Glazer 13:30 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 13:30 ... and concrete-

Ilana Glazer 13:31 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 13:31 ... even if it doesn't make sense, even if you don't believe in it, even if it feels bad, I feel like us humans, we really like clarity.

Ilana Glazer 13:39 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 13:39 And so I think it's compelling. Oh, I just, I know how to give a time out. You have a two-minute timeout for hitting your sister. You're not gonna get your sticker. And then all of a sudden I'm like, "Oh, my God, now they have a tantrum that they're not getting their sticker" [laughs] . But at least I feel like I know what to do. And I think through my own journey, what I realize is, wait, okay, parents need to know what to do. We all do. Nobody tells us what to do. The world tells us it should come naturally.

Ilana Glazer 14:02 Mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 14:03 I believe the only thing that comes naturally is how you were parented, which is often not the thing we wanna repeat. And so what if there was a system that just felt better [laughs] and more right and almost more healing, but was equally as clear and concrete? I mean, that's, that's how, that's how this whole thing got started.

Ilana Glazer 14:17 Mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 14:18 Well-

Ilana Glazer 14:18 Um, how did you, like, raise your consciousness out of sticker charts?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 14:24 I mean, the truth of it was I delivered that method to parents for a little while in my private practice. I did.

Ilana Glazer 14:33 I get it.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 14:34 And then I had, uh, I, I had my first around the same time. I mean, I wasn't doing a ton of parenting work before I had my son. I feel like once I did, I was like, "Oh, wow, this is so hard. I wanna do more [laughs] of this work." Um, and, and really it was the course of these months where I would, like, be sharing with people what to do, and e- every couple sessions something shifted. At first it was like, "This is amazing," and I, "and I have clarity and I can tell them." And then maybe in a couple weeks it was like, there's this, like, weird feeling, it's only like 5%, that's like, "I don't know about this." [laughs]

Ilana Glazer 15:02 Mm, mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:02 And then that was, like, 10%, and then truly the thing became so loud in me.

Ilana Glazer 15:08 Mm, mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:09 I, I don't know if you've heard me say this before. It really in some ways was like this watershed moment where I said to these parents, "I'm sorry, I don't believe anything I'm telling you."

Ilana Glazer 15:16 Ooh, ooh.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:17 Really. [laughs]

Ilana Glazer 15:17 Wow.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:18 And when I look back on that moment, it feels, the reason it feels important is 'cause I actually didn't know what to tell them instead, and I said that to them. I remember being like, "I'm gonna do some thinking." [laughs]

Ilana Glazer 15:28 Holy shit.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:29 And they were like, "Can we have our money back?"

Ilana Glazer 15:31 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:31 [laughs] I was like, "Definitely."

Ilana Glazer 15:33 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:33 "Please just don't write me a bad, like, Yelp review or something."

Ilana Glazer 15:35 Yeah, yeah. Wow.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:35 Um, but to me, that moment of I know something is wrong, and I can know that before I know what is right-

Ilana Glazer 15:44 Uh-huh, uh-huh, right

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:45 ... I feel like kind of informed everything experimental that almost came next. Um-

Ilana Glazer 15:52 You, like, experimented, 'cause I'm like what then, how did you build this new, whatever, curriculum or practice-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:56 Yeah

Ilana Glazer 15:57 ... through, like, experimenting?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:59 Kind of. I think the thing that struck me and why it felt so wrong is I'd have, like, my, my days were very long in private practice. And I'd say, okay, parents of a three-year-old, couples therapy, um, individual adult, individual adult, individual adult, teenager after school, another parenting session. So I'd have all these different kind of things, where it was like parenting versus a teen versus couples versus adults.

Ilana Glazer 16:20 Wow.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:21 And I think the thing that felt bad was everything I know helps teens, couples, and adults change the way they see the world and live more of the life they wanna live is at theoretical opposition with what I'm telling parents to do.

Ilana Glazer 16:33 Mm, mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:34 Right? Like, we've talked about therapy being in therapy. When you struggle [laughs] your therapist doesn't say to you, "Give me your phone. I'm taking your phone for a week."

Ilana Glazer 16:40 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:41 "And come back when you figure that out."

Ilana Glazer 16:42 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:42 You'd be like, "That's the best you've got? That's soft."

Ilana Glazer 16:45 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:45 "That's pathetic."

Ilana Glazer 16:46 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:46 You know? Help me figure this out.

Ilana Glazer 16:47 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:48 Um, and so I was like, how could the things that teens, couples, and adults need to rewire be so different than what kids need?

Ilana Glazer 16:58 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:58 And I think that goes back maybe to our commonality, like, they're humans.

Ilana Glazer 17:00 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:01 All humans need the same things.

Ilana Glazer 17:02 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:03 And so what if I took this kind of way I had of working with adults, this combination of different things I had learned, my own creativity, what if I just reverse engineered that to parents and made it concrete and practical? 'Cause that's tends to be what I need to kind of trust things anyway. And I think I've really learned so much from adults, like what, what their well-intentioned parents did that as a pattern felt really off, how they needed to shift, and some of that really informed, you know, what I shared with parents more than anything else.

Ilana Glazer 17:34 Two things I wanna say.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:35 Okay.

Ilana Glazer 17:36 Two and a half. The first is I want listeners and viewers to know that our feet aren't touching the ground.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:41 It's really true. It's, it's an important-

Ilana Glazer 17:43 You're, you're, like, pretending that your left foot is. It's not. Our feet are swinging.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:48 [sighs]

Ilana Glazer 17:48 Okay. We're short people. Second thing I wanna say, when you talked about a timeout, is, um, you know, it's like the timeout is this, uh, outside-in version of, like, pausing, which is the same kinda vibe, but, like, from the inside out. Like, one does need a pause.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 18:06 Yes.

Ilana Glazer 18:06 But to be, like, imprisoned in that moment is, like, so dehumanizing, you know? Truly.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 18:13 [sighs]

Ilana Glazer 18:13 And it's like, you don't get access to me, [laughs] your biggest source of care and provision. You go away from me. And it's like, yeah, of course, I... Can I curse? Of course, I want a fucking break, too. But it's also, like, let's take a break from this. Let's take a beat. We always say beat. Let's take a beat. Um, oh my God. And then the other thing about clarity is, like, uh, I shared with you before this session that I don't feel like diving into it here, and I'm sorry. Um, but we're having, like, some sleep troubles [laughs] that have been, like, so persistently painful for such a long time that I'm mired in [laughs] an entanglement of feelings that I can't start to detangle here. Um, but after the session, I do need your help badly. Um, but clarity, I was just thinking, uh, yesterday morning [laughs] you talked about doing a, like, placeholder name. Should I call my child Bert? [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:08 [laughs] D- does that feel right?

Ilana Glazer 19:11 [laughs] Honestly, she loves Bert on Sesame Street.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:13 Okay.

Ilana Glazer 19:13 She loves Bert and Oscar, which I'm like, "You are empathetic."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:17 I know.

Ilana Glazer 19:17 You care for, for-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:18 So many parts

Ilana Glazer 19:19 ... I love it, like-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:20 Love it

Ilana Glazer 19:20 ... caring for these sour characters and boring characters, I love it.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:23 [laughs]

Ilana Glazer 19:23 [laughs] So my beautiful daughter, Bert, [laughs] couldn't-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:28 Sorry

Ilana Glazer 19:28 ... couldn't, um, could not go back to sleep. And while it didn't work, one thing I did was, um, I was like, "Let's take a bath" at, like, 5:00 in the morning. I was like, "You wanna take a bath?" Just the change in element from air to water, I was like, that's a clarity from the inside out from, like, a human place-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:47 Yeah

Ilana Glazer 19:48 ... that I'm, in fact, sh- proud to share here rather than the, um, inconsistent and, uh, challenged ways I've been dealing with her s- sleep struggles.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:56 Oh.

Ilana Glazer 19:56 But I am, like, happy to share here, like, let's just, like, sit in water and, like, pour water over your head, and it really did calm her down and clarify things, actually. It's like, I don't know. She was all buzzy and wired and knew it was weird to be up. So then the bath is just, like, a type of clarity that I think is more human anyway.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 20:17 Yeah. Uh, uh, I have so many different thoughts. Number one, sleep with one of my kids is definitely the area that I feel like I made some of my worst parenting decisions in, that I feel-

Ilana Glazer 20:27 Thank you.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 20:27 Yeah.

Ilana Glazer 20:27 Oh my God, I'm, like, verklempt. Thank you.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 20:29 I mean, but sleep, it's so primal. Honestly, when I talk to parents, and I'm like, "Just tell me all the things," 'cause it's never that clean. They're like, "Yeah, it's the tantrums. It's the rudeness. It's the hitting. It's the sibling stuff. It's the sleep." I actually always say th- let's start with sleep first.

Ilana Glazer 20:43 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 20:43 Because when your kid's sleep is disrupted, and your sleep is disrupted, nobody has any large percentage of what they would need to even manage the other things well. It's so basic, right? I mean-

Ilana Glazer 20:55 [sighs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 20:55 ... one of the things you do to torture people is deprive them-

Ilana Glazer 20:57 That's right

Dr. Becky Kennedy 20:57 ... of sleep. So it, it's so important. And so to me, that's always-

Ilana Glazer 21:02 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 21:02 ... the starting point. Um, and when you're not sleeping, you... I- it's just... I remember with one of my kids, it's so triggering. You f- you do feel like your kid is giving you a hard time.

Ilana Glazer 21:13 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 21:13 You really do.

Ilana Glazer 21:15 Oh my G- oh.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 21:16 Even being like, "But were they having..." Yeah, they were having a hard time, but it really didn't feel like that. Because you're like, "I want to be doing the opposite of what I'm doing now. I want to be not talking to you and not interacting with you at all because I would be sleeping in my bed." [laughs] And so regulating yourself, and so we act from that place of powerlessness and helplessness. And I'm happy to share here. I mean, one of my kids, because, and this is such a big lesson for me. I don't even know if I've talked about this, but I was so scared of letting her into my room for a period of time. And I think this, like, fast-forward error, oh, she's never gonna leave, and, you know, and now I look-

Ilana Glazer 21:51 Oh my God, I know

Dr. Becky Kennedy 21:52 ... right? And so-

Ilana Glazer 21:52 Oh, or fast-forward of, like, well, I better enjoy it because one day it'll never happen again.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 21:56 Right, either way.

Ilana Glazer 21:57 Oh my God, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 21:58 And so for a period of time, she slept on the wood floor outside of our bedroom. And she's also so resolute and strong that I remember her saying, when we then were like, "Wait a second. Maybe we should just come into our room." But I think whatever it was, the injury, she's like, "I'm a, I'm a wood person."

Ilana Glazer 22:16 Ooh.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 22:17 "Not a bed person."

Ilana Glazer 22:18 Wow.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 22:19 And if I could go back and give myself advice, it would be like, "She's going through a hard time." It was when I had my third. That shakes up a kid's world. And she n- she, she needed something that she wouldn't always need. And it's okay to give into that, and that's not permissive, and it's not forever. And maybe I give her that for a little bit, and then maybe weeks or months later, I'd be like, "You know what? We're, we're shifting away because something has changed." But-

Ilana Glazer 22:38 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 22:38 ... I was scared to do that.

Ilana Glazer 22:39 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 22:39 And me and my husband still talk [laughs] about that was not a good set of-

Ilana Glazer 22:43 Mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 22:43 That was not our best set of decisions. You know?

Ilana Glazer 22:45 I slept on the floor like a dog in my parents' bedroom. And I, like, look back, I'm like, "Something's off there."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 22:52 [laughs] Yeah.

Ilana Glazer 22:53 Something's off.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 22:54 I know.

Ilana Glazer 22:54 Something's off. Yeah, we, um... I, I didn't, I certainly didn't want my daughter in my bed and, and struggled with it but then, like, embraced it-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:04 Yeah

Ilana Glazer 23:04 ... and was like, "Reliance," you know what I mean? "Reliance." Just, we, like, literally are animals as well as human beings, and embraced it for a while.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:13 Mm.

Ilana Glazer 23:13 And I'm just like, [sighs] I'm at a lost point right now, but I feel you. It's so, it's so weird, you know? And the other thing, like, about, like, boundaries, it's like we have so many outside in dehumanizing boundaries, um, enforced upon us non-consensually in this world. And it's, like, kind of hard to know what a real human boundary from the inside out is.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:34 Mm.

Ilana Glazer 23:34 I was sharing with you that I'm in analysis, so it's, like, high-frequency therapy three times a week, 45 minutes on the diz. At 45 minutes, we out.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:43 [laughs]

Ilana Glazer 23:43 Rebecca Kennedy, it's done.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:45 It is.

Ilana Glazer 23:45 And it has, like, enforced boundaries on me where I'm like, oh. At first, I was like, "He hates me."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:49 [laughs]

Ilana Glazer 23:50 "He fucking hates me." [laughs] And-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:52 We his favorite patient.

Ilana Glazer 23:53 Yep, and then-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:54 Always wanna know, like, "Am I your favorite patient?"

Ilana Glazer 23:56 Right, right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:56 Right?

Ilana Glazer 23:56 And then, um, I've actually just learned, like, oh, [sighs] my doctor needs these boundaries in order to care. And I talked about it with him. I was like, "Feel like you hate me," you know, and we, like, talked through it, where it's like you need, he needs these boundaries to care for me and his other patients, you know, and whatever. Like, I've learned, um, the feeling of receiving boundaries and thus-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 24:20 Mm

Ilana Glazer 24:20 ... how to enact them from the inside out myself through this-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 24:23 Mm

Ilana Glazer 24:24 ... uh, psychoanalytic practice I've been in for five years, more than any other, I don't know- Learning boundaries before or like never learning them early on. And, um, yeah, it's just, it's really hard. It's really hard to hold a boundary. It's, it's hard to know, you know, talking about like letting a kid in bed or not, it's just like kinda hard to know in parenting, and there's such a high volume of like intense, immediate needs, high frequency, you know? Um, it's kinda hard to sort it out when you also have a job and, and, uh, like-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 24:58 Mm

Ilana Glazer 24:58 ... house to clean and, um-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 24:59 And stuff from your past that comes up to deal with.

Ilana Glazer 25:02 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:02 That's right. I mean, I, I wanna double click on boundaries, 'cause this is... Like, boundaries are my love language, and I think, I think it's, of all the different kind of journeys I feel like I've experienced with parents, like learning what boundaries really are, what they're not, learning how to set them and hold them, right? Learning what to expect from others in response to your boundaries, right? Not so secret secret, nobody likes when you hold boundaries, like just 'cause we all have reactions to not getting our own needs met. Um, I do feel like it's so critical in parenting. And going back to our own past, so many of us growing up, I know for me this is true, too, so much of how we formed our identity and our worth was kind of like looking out, noticing what people wanted of us, being good-

Ilana Glazer 25:46 That's right

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:47 ... for other people, which is kind of the opposite of boundaries. And so I don't think any of us become moms and think, "I'm gonna have a hard time when my kid's upset with me." We're like, "No, they're my kid." That's, it, like logically you're like, "They're gonna be upset with me." But it activates something so much older than-

Ilana Glazer 26:03 Mm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:03 ... you know, anything about parenting. What is it like for me to be grounded in what I want even if other people don't want that of me? What is it like for me to get what I want while knowing it inconveniences someone else?

Ilana Glazer 26:17 Mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:17 Like, these are such old circuits that get activated in such big ways.

Ilana Glazer 26:21 I don't actually have trouble with [laughs] Bert saying that she, um, doesn't like me. She said this this morning. She's like, "I don't like you." And I was like, "That's okay." I, probably the psychoanalysis got me there. Um, I, I started in 20- really 2020, um, so a couple years before I got pregnant, and I'm like really glad I did. It helped me with that. I'm not like offended and I'm like actually so... You know, I was like a very good kid. I did not, I did not, um, did not rebel very much. Really wanted, really focused on what I could give as my worth to my parents, to my family. Um, so I'm like really... I, I feel accomplished when Bert tells me she doesn't like me or, you know, "I like Daddy, I don't like you." And I'm like, "Cool. That's okay. That's okay to say. Totally get it. We're still gonna do this thing," you know?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 27:18 Yeah.

Ilana Glazer 27:18 That's not like what breaks me. It's honestly, and this is a big part of the sleep, like my ambivalence about separation, my, my separateness. I think I... You know, it's like I... [sighs] The heartbreak of how much love is pumping through me, it's like so heartbreaking, and it's also like, you know, when like, um, when people who often have given birth before, like the... My friend had this, where like the walls of her uterus were like thin from the first-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 27:56 [laughs] Assault of pregnancy and birth?

Ilana Glazer 27:59 It's almost like the walls of my heart are thin.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 28:01 Mm.

Ilana Glazer 28:02 Just, you know, pressed, and, and it's like when the Grinch at the end, his like, the heart growing three times the size and it breaks that box. And it's like Bert is now three and a half years old, and it's like really, really outside of the baby era.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 28:17 Yeah.

Ilana Glazer 28:17 And my husband and I are like, it's really starting to be like, "Fuck, this is so painful." Not even, forget the horrors of the world. Just like, it's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking how, I don't know, the deliciousness. And like I think what I struggle with is like almost feeling like seen and felt for how much I miss her when I'm leaving today, how much I'm, even though I'm having all these sleep troubles, gonna miss you tonight while I'm going upstairs. [laughs] 'Cause I actually came to love this like lion's den that we shared, and that was actually an extra bunch of hours we could get together if I'm not seeing you during the day.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 28:53 Yeah. I'm curious if this resonates or if it's a cousin or not at all related, where I think about moments that have been hard with my kids where... [smacks lips] Trying to think of an example. Or again, maybe it's like a power struggle of, like my youngest, I know I'm not gonna get him to wear a coat because he's so strong-minded and so strong-willed. But to me, I wanna make sure the coat is in your backpack.

Ilana Glazer 29:17 Mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 29:17 Like, you might decide, especially when you're away from me and you don't see that I'm looking at you, that you're like, "Yeah, it's a good day for a coat."

Ilana Glazer 29:23 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 29:23 It's 20 degrees, right? So I'm just like that's my job, is to put it in there.

Ilana Glazer 29:26 Right, right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 29:27 And I think part of the power struggle is like maybe on some level I'm looking for him to say to me, "I, I know you do this from a place of caring and you just love me so much." [laughs] Like, it's, it's laughable. Like, he's definitely not gonna say that to me. Um, and it sounds cheesy, and it doesn't work all the time, but I know that if I do take a moment and say to myself, "Becky, I know I'm doing this from a place of care," right?

Ilana Glazer 29:54 Right, right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 29:55 It, it, it doesn't mean I'm not gonna get a power struggle that morning, but it does help a little. Mm-hmm.

Ilana Glazer 30:01 It eases things from the inside out.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 30:03 Yes.

Ilana Glazer 30:03 From parent to child.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 30:06 I know one of the things I struggle with is I do feel like efficiency and relationship building are opposites. Uh, 'cause I think at night, one of the things-

Ilana Glazer 30:16 Oof

Dr. Becky Kennedy 30:16 ... right, that comes up, is you're like, "I gotta get my kid down." And then, and part of it, not part of it, all of it, that makes sense. For me, there's like this many minutes that I could sit on a couch.

Ilana Glazer 30:25 Three kids, I, I-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 30:26 Well, especially as my kid gets older, I remember one of my friends saying this to me when their kids were a lot older, and it struck me as surprising, even though it's crazy. They're like, "When your kids get older, they stay up later and you don't like get those hours back." I was like, "What?" [laughs] Never considered that. They stay up until 10:00. It's not like they go to school at 9:00 the next day. Like, they, th- you just have, they just occupy more hours.

Ilana Glazer 30:49 I think about it all the time. Anyway, go on.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 30:51 Right?

Ilana Glazer 30:51 Go on.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 30:51 And so at night, you know, and I think especially with one of my kids who is just more oriented towards separation, that's all sleep is. It's separation. We always think so much about how kids separate at school, and their routines, and how we make them comfortable. That's when they're with students and a teacher in a room in the light with toys. At night, they're alone in the dark [laughs] without anyone, and they do it for longer than they do during the day. So by the way, I believe kids can learn to sleep independently from a place of capability and resilience and all the good things. So it's not a reason to say kids c- can't sleep independently, but it's important to understand why they delay with a million stickers. And a couple days ago, I was talking to my two younger kids and I said to them, "I want you to each tell me one thing that'll be, like, part of my New Year's resolutions. One thing that you really want me to do differently-

Ilana Glazer 31:41 Ooh

Dr. Becky Kennedy 31:42 ... to be a better parent."

Ilana Glazer 31:43 Wow, true strength.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 31:44 I, because I was like, they, they have good feedback, right? That's what we do. But that's what you do in work, 360-degree feedback, right? We take in all input. And my daughter said to me, "Okay. Mom, I know I always have to do one more thing at night." And she just goes, "That's just how I am. I'm always gonna have to do one more thing, and I hate that you say to me, 'Come on, let's go. Uh, you've gotta get to bed.'"

Ilana Glazer 32:07 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 32:07 And, and she goes, "And that's the last voice I hear before I go to sleep."

Ilana Glazer 32:10 Oh, my goodness. Ooh.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 32:13 I was like, "Ah."

Ilana Glazer 32:14 This child has a full palette, all the colors of emotions that she's able to, like, process and communicate to you. It's incredible.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 32:23 Tot- and she's got my number.

Ilana Glazer 32:25 Yeah, that is the last-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 32:25 'Cause I think at night-

Ilana Glazer 32:26 ... voice I hear

Dr. Becky Kennedy 32:27 ... kids need a little bit extra connection, and I know as an adult, I'm going for a little bit extra efficiency.

Ilana Glazer 32:34 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 32:34 [laughs] Can we just shorten this, you know?

Ilana Glazer 32:37 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 32:37 And it's only been a couple days since she said that, but I have, I have, uh, I did really take it in. I think one of the things that helps me be less efficient, it's just, "Becky, this is, like, exactly what I should be doing. I have to get hyperbolic. There's nothing more important than this right now. I'm not in such a rush." Like, I don't know what I'm rushing to do, but it always feels like a rush. And, like, kind of my relationship, that connection with her, she needs an extra dose to separate, right? Um, and it has been more pleasant, but it's been, it's been

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:08 challenging. Talk to me a little bit about your journey when you became a mom around these things that feel not conducive with how we grew up, boundaries, whatever, whatever self-care means to you, how you balance being a caregiver. You have so much love for your daughter. You also have love for yourself, when those things feel conflictual, when they don't.

Ilana Glazer 33:28 Um, the boundaries thing really comes to, c- goes back to psychoanalysis for me because this is like a, you know, like, I, [laughs] it's just been a really helpful practice. I'm an analytic person. My relationship with my husband is analytic, and we're getting to a point where we're, where it's, like, a little too much.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:49 [laughs]

Ilana Glazer 33:50 We, we, [laughs] we were, like, in a, [laughs] in a pattern of, like, analyzing ourselves before one another-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:55 [laughs]

Ilana Glazer 33:55 ... analyzing each other.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:56 [laughs]

Ilana Glazer 33:56 And it's like, we got it. We've been together 12 and a half years. We get it.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 34:01 Yeah.

Ilana Glazer 34:01 We get the vibe, the pattern, where it comes from. Think we got it. Um, I literally am like, can we just talk about T-shirts?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 34:07 Uh-huh. Just, like, move on.

Ilana Glazer 34:07 Like, the best soft T-shirt, like, the one that moves the best. I just wanna get, like, granular with stupid shit, please. 'Cause we're also not, like, huge TV and movie film watchers.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 34:19 Hmm.

Ilana Glazer 34:19 Like, we're, um, we literally talk and talk. So, um, [laughs] so it really is with my, in my analytic practice-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 34:29 Mm-hmm

Ilana Glazer 34:30 ... that I have been, like, yeah, just, like, re-parented myself, re-partnered myself-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 34:36 Yeah

Ilana Glazer 34:37 ... um, in a way that's super helpful. And, like, I'm, like, reaching this understanding also with my sleep troubles. I, like, drew a boundary the other day. I was like, "I literally can't do this. I can't do this anymore."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 34:48 Mm-hmm.

Ilana Glazer 34:48 "I'm exhausted. It is mentally damaging. [laughs] My brain is a cotton candy."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 34:56 Yep.

Ilana Glazer 34:56 "And I can't do this anymore." So I actually, I struggle with boundaries.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 35:00 Yeah.

Ilana Glazer 35:01 I want to be supermom. I want to be supermom.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 35:05 What does that mean?

Ilana Glazer 35:06 [sighs] Um, like, for over a year, I've been, like, getting up every single night a- and I'm exhausted, and I have a, not full-time job, I have, like, a career.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 35:20 Wow.

Ilana Glazer 35:20 And I've been on tour. I did a 52, uh, show tour, which is this, I filmed a stand-up special, Human Magic, for Hulu. That's o- streaming on Hulu right now. I put out a movie, Babes, also on Hulu. Hulu's, uh, got my number.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 35:37 [laughs]

Ilana Glazer 35:37 Um, and I'm like, how have I not... I, I haven't asked for help. And, um-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 35:43 Yeah

Ilana Glazer 35:43 ... you know, Burt calls Mommy, and I'm out of bed in, in less than a second. In one half of a second, I'm mid-leap, and it's like, you know, this goes back to really old feelings of hoping that if I take care of others, I will then be taken care of.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 35:58 Yeah.

Ilana Glazer 35:58 Almost like a faith system.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:00 Yeah.

Ilana Glazer 36:01 Right? Like, the way that, um, different faiths have, like, what is really just superstition, almost like a superstition.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:08 Yeah.

Ilana Glazer 36:08 You know? And I'm like, uh, so I really struggle with boundaries-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:13 Yeah

Ilana Glazer 36:13 ... and boundaries on myself, and I'm harsh.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:15 I wanna share two different ways I, I think about boundaries. I personally always like to have the freedom to, like, define things in a million ways. It's just about what's useful.

Ilana Glazer 36:21 Great.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:22 Okay. The first, which has been the most helpful in my boundary journey, is just boundaries are things you tell... Sorry. Boundaries are what you tell others you will do, and they require the other person to do nothing.

Ilana Glazer 36:35 Oof. [tongue click] Yes.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:39 Because one of the things I think especially from parents-

Ilana Glazer 36:42 Yes. Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:42 ... although I hear it from adults-

Ilana Glazer 36:43 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:43 ... is I tell my kid ... in New York City not to press all the elevator buttons when we go into the elevator, and they don't respect my boundaries.

Ilana Glazer 36:53 That's so annoying. [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:55 So annoying.

Ilana Glazer 36:56 That's crazy.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:57 So annoying.

Ilana Glazer 36:57 Oh, my God, giving Lolleez. Okay.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:59 Right? And if I think about boundaries as boundaries are what I tell my kid I will do, and kind of then their success would require my kid to do nothing, I would kinda say, "Oh, well, I'm not setting a boundary. I'm not telling my kid what I will do." And the success of it would require my kid not to press the buttons, but if a boundary success should have nothing to do with the other person, then that's not actually a boundary.

Ilana Glazer 37:23 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 37:24 It's a request. We make requests of people all the time, but if something really matters to us, our power comes from our boundaries, and we give away our power all the time to, like, four-year-olds.

Ilana Glazer 37:36 Right. [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 37:37 And so this is my son, my youngest. I mean, he has 0% people-pleasing in him.

Ilana Glazer 37:42 Mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 37:43 Such an inspiration for-

Ilana Glazer 37:44 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 37:45 ... you know, the rest of us. Um, and so triggering. Um, but if it really mattered to me... And he doesn't do this anymore. He's seven, but when he was younger, he, he would just be driven by what he wants to do. And you know what's funny? To press all the elevator buttons. It just is objectively funny.

Ilana Glazer 37:57 Genuinely hilarious.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 37:58 Yeah.

Ilana Glazer 37:58 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 37:58 And so I realized that what I did was either say, "Look, when we go into the elevator, I'm gonna stand between you and the buttons, and even if you lunge, I'm ready. I got my moves."

Ilana Glazer 38:07 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 38:07 "I'm just not gonna, I'm not gonna let you press them."

Ilana Glazer 38:09 Holy moly. Okay.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 38:10 And then whether he lunged or not, I could get upstairs, 'cause I was still bigger than him, and be like, "I held my boundary." Now, again, he never said, "I needed that. Really appreciate you. Such a sturdy leader."

Ilana Glazer 38:20 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 38:20 Never.

Ilana Glazer 38:20 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 38:21 They always still try the thing. They whine, they complain. And sometimes the boundary was just I realized I don't have to say anything. I could just stand between him and the elevator buttons and get ready and say, like, "Son, I'm not gonna let you do that," if he tried. And again, I'm setting a boundary. And what I realized with this shift is, first of all, my win was not dependent on my toddler doing anything. It's just so powerless to feel like your wins as a parent are dependent on a, like, very not yet formed human being. [laughs]

Ilana Glazer 38:54 Yep.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 38:54 Right? My win now was, 'cause I remember talking to my friends about this, is, like, I felt really proud about these shifts, even though objectively someone looking at them would be like, "Your kid's being difficult." But I was like, oh, no, like, I'm playing the role-

Ilana Glazer 39:08 Mm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 39:08 ... I need to play.

Ilana Glazer 39:09 Mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 39:09 I'm doing me. I know what I'm doing is kind of powerful, embodying my appropriate authority, and still being kind and compassionate. Because if he can't kind of regulate the urge to press the buttons, I'm not doing him a favor by letting him just do it. Now I'm gonna get frustrated.

Ilana Glazer 39:27 Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 39:27 I'm gonna, like, yell a threat I'm not gonna follow up with. Like, I, I, I need to protect him from his lack of-

Ilana Glazer 39:33 It's wacky world-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 39:34 Right?

Ilana Glazer 39:34 ... also, to teach him that this is possible. It's, it's not really possible-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 39:38 Right. I have to stop it

Ilana Glazer 39:38 ... past the first time.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 39:39 I remember thinking, I'm not gonna ever let him run into the street.

Ilana Glazer 39:42 Right. Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 39:42 I wouldn't be like, "If you run into the street again, no dessert tonight."

Ilana Glazer 39:45 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 39:45 I'm just gonna stop him.

Ilana Glazer 39:46 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 39:46 I just need to stop him-

Ilana Glazer 39:47 Right

Dr. Becky Kennedy 39:47 ... from doing the things that aren't good for him.

Ilana Glazer 39:49 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 39:49 And then the other way I think about boundaries is just, especially, maybe this is definitely for kids, but I think about it definitely with adults, is a boundary is a way I'm telling you what I need to continue feeling good-

Ilana Glazer 40:01 Mm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:01 ... about my relationship with you.

Ilana Glazer 40:02 Mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:03 And so it's a way of preserving my relationship with you.

Ilana Glazer 40:06 Right. That's right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:07 Right? Like, the reason someone might say to their mother-in-law that, like, they just can't pop over, right, whenever they want is 'cause they actually wanna be in a better relationship with their mother-in-law-

Ilana Glazer 40:16 That's right

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:17 ... [laughs] and not feel resentful-

Ilana Glazer 40:18 Right

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:18 ... all the time.

Ilana Glazer 40:19 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:19 But it's so counter... Yes, especially what us as little girls, 'cause you said you are a good girl. I would, too. I put good in quotes 'cause all that means is you don't have desires for yourself.

Ilana Glazer 40:29 Yep.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:29 You don't set boundaries.

Ilana Glazer 40:30 Yep.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:31 You never think about what you need in a relationship.

Ilana Glazer 40:34 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:34 You're defining it outside in.

Ilana Glazer 40:36 Check.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:37 Right. And then we call that-

Ilana Glazer 40:38 Be that

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:38 ... being a good girl.

Ilana Glazer 40:39 Yeah. Yeah, no.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:39 It's messed up.

Ilana Glazer 40:40 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:41 Right? We're all unwanted.

Ilana Glazer 40:41 And it's actually, like, um, not even what femininity is. You know what I mean? As a sort of strong, um, consuming force [laughs] of femininity. It's like that's not even what that is. That's, like, some- something else.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:56 [laughs]

Ilana Glazer 40:56 It's, it's some, like, bizarre part that has been written, and we just are handed a script in so many ways. Um-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 41:05 Yeah.

Ilana Glazer 41:05 But I, I really, like, love the re- the redefining, the, the, you know, additional angle of defining, um, what a boundary is-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 41:13 Yeah

Ilana Glazer 41:13 ... because it kind of goes back to what I'm saying about millennial parenting and how I feel like millennials... Like, there's just a sort of common sense in how forcing other people to be who you want them to be doesn't make sense anymore at many levels, at a parenting level, at a, like, governmental, national level. Like, it just, large groups, it just doesn't make sense to... It, it's not gonna work to say, "I hate the way you are, and you need to change." It doesn't, it doesn't work, you know? And the only thing you can define, I'm finding the mainstream millennial discourse to understand, is that the only thing you can, um, control is your own boundaries.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 42:00 Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah.

Ilana Glazer 42:04 Thanks for having me. Woof.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 42:05 This was awesome. Many more. Cheers.

Ilana Glazer 42:08 Thank you.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 42:09 Next time with a stool so our feet can reach. [laughs]

Ilana Glazer 42:11 [laughs] Footstools?