Can We Raise Good Kids Without Punishing Them?

1. 0:00 – 0:06

   Intro

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy0:00

      [gentle music]

2. 0:06 – 0:36

   Why parents worry: “No punishment” can sound like permissive parenting

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy0:06

      Punishment. Can we raise good kids without punishing them? Is punishment just necessary to raise the type of kids that become fully functioning adults? This is a question I get all the time from parents, and I wanna just come out and say I understand this question. I understand the skepticism. I think there's a lot underneath it, because I think when we think about punishments on one side, we assume the absence means permissive

3. 0:36 – 2:38

   A retreat debate: a dad challenges the Good Inside approach

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy0:36

      parenting on the other side, and there's definitely something between. But the reason this is really on my mind is I just got back from a work retreat. It was with a bunch of founders. We were talking about so many interesting topics, and not surprisingly, the topic of parenting came up. There was a small group of us chatting one night, and one of the dads in the group just started really challenging the idea that you could raise good, well-behaved, resilient kids without punishment. And I loved this conversation. It got really heated. He was arguing that punishment is necessary to teach kids how the world works, so they're prepared for the world. Punishment teaches kids right from wrong. Dr. Becky, you don't wanna teach kids right from wrong? This is an amazing, energetic, not argumentative, but just impassion conversation. And I learned so much about the assumptions we make as parents, the fears we have, because I think we have a lot of fears around the idea of not punishing kids, and I get that. And I think when we talk about punishments, we're always also talking about the lessons we've inherited from our own parents. Anyway, this was such a rich conversation that it's still very loud in my mind, and I really wanted to come here to share the conversation with you because I have a feeling this topic is on your mind, and I have a feeling this topic is on the mind maybe of your partner who isn't so sure about this Good Inside approach, or a family member or a friend, and I totally get that. Hopefully, this episode resonates, and I actually think it's probably gonna be one you want to send to a partner, just as a way of starting a productive, open, thoughtful conversation about parenting and punishment. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this. As parents, I think we all wonder, how

4. 2:38 – 3:39

   Sponsor break: self-care as part of sturdy leadership (AG1)

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy2:38

      can I take care of myself while also caring for my kid? It's so easy to lose ourselves, and then we get resentful and reactive. For me, it's all about small, consistent actions that remind me that I matter. And for months now, AG1 truly has been a key element in my life. AG1 is a daily supplement powder with minerals, probiotics, antioxidants, all the good stuff that supports your overall health and well-being. For me, a good inside mom working on being a sturdy leader, AG1 is something else as well. It's how I ensure I start my day by remembering myself. I've gotten to know Cat Cole, the CEO of AG1, and you'd love her because she's a true champion for parents. She even offers the Good Inside app as a corporate benefit to parents working at AG1 because she knows that AG1 and Good Inside are both crucial parts of a parent's sturdy foundation. To learn more,

5. 3:39 – 4:40

   The presenting problem: a 5-year-old hitting his 3-year-old sister

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy3:39

      go to drinkAG1.com/drbecky to check it out. And for Good Inside listeners, we added in with no extra charge, a bottle of Vitamin D3K2 and five free AG1 travel packs with your first purchase. I can't wait to hear what you think. [gentle music] So here is how the conversation started on my work retreat. A dad said to me, "Okay, so my five-year-old is in a hitting phase with his three-year-old sister." Five-year-old, three-year-old, five-year-old son is hitting the three-year-old sister. And he said to me, "My son has to learn right from wrong. I have to make sure my son knows how to operate in the world. He has to know hitting isn't okay." And he shared with me, "Honestly, me and my wife have really been arguing about it." Um, he was kind of laughing and saying, "I can't believe you're on this, you know, retreat. We kind of argue about the video she sends of what you

6. 4:40 – 7:42

   Step one: regulate the parent—frustration blocks effective intervention

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy4:40

      say, and we're really at odds with each other about it." The first thing me and this dad ended up talking about was actually just how he was feeling because here's the first thing I noticed, and by the way, I am not above this. It's just important to notice it when it happens. This parent was so frustrated with his kid, so angry with his kid, and of course, this makes sense. When your kid acts out, and when I think back and I think about when my kids were younger and, yes, hit or threw or all the things, it is so hard for a parent, right? And I know this is also true. As long as we see our kid as a bad kid, as long as we're overwhelmed with frustration toward our kid, we can't intervene productively. I say that in a resigned way because it's annoying that it's true, because we're frustrated with our kids all the time, and if you think about what that means, wait, I have to get my frustration under control to intervene effectively? Ugh, that's a lot of work. It totally is a lot of work. This is the stuff I wish people told us we were signing up for when we were becoming parents. But I think if we get out of the parenting realm and you think about work, think about someone you're managing at work, and this is actually something that really resonated with the dad who was a founder. You know, I said, "Think about, you know, one of your leaders who reports to you. Think about being really frustrated with them." Think about just not liking them. Think about what you'd say to them from that state. And this was a father who was actually very, very invested in management and thought a lot about how his company operates and how to bring out the best in people. And I kind of watched him have this aha moment and say, "I kind of get what you mean. I actually know that I get the best out of my employees when I communicate with them in a really respectful way, not when I come at them from a place of criticism," and even shared this management training, you know, he had done. So that was the first point. And so I just want you right now to pause and just think about one thing you're really frustrated with around your kid. Maybe you're saying, "This is my life. My kid hits someone else." Maybe it's hitting. Maybe it's talking back. Maybe it's my kid, you know, never cleans up when I ask them. Maybe my kid's just so rude. They literally don't have manners. They don't say thank you. They don't say please. I ask them to do it. They refuse. There could be a million things. We all have a million things. I have a million things I'm frustrated with, and I just want you to do this. I notice I'm feeling frustrated. Maybe you're rolling your eyes. You're like, "This is so annoying. Why is this psychologist making me do this?" I promise you it's effective. I'm only interested in being effective, so bear with me. Noticing your frustration is the key to not letting your frustration dictate what you do. And no matter what type of person you are, no one wants to be controlled by their feelings. If we don't recognize our frustration, our frustration controls us. That's pretty powerless. Frustration can be a passenger in our car. That's okay, but it can't be the driver of the car

7. 7:42 – 9:14

   The core lens shift: “bad kid” vs. “good kid having a hard time”

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy7:42

      because we are the drivers of our car. So I want you to do that. All right, the second thing that happened with this dad is, you know, he, he challenged me. He's like, "Okay, so, so what's the way you would think about it," right? It was kind of... It was actually very fun and playful. I really enjoyed this conversation, and I kind of took the bait. I said, "I'll tell you." To me, the core thing I think about is whether we are looking at our kid as if their bad behavior equals being a bad kid or if we look at our kid like they're a good kid who's having a hard time. Do I see my kid's bad behavior as a sign of who they are, or do I see my kid's bad behavior as a sign of something they're struggling with? Do I see bad behavior and I assume bad identity, or do I assume good identity and see bad behavior as a sign of something my kid needs? These are the assumptions that make all the difference in parenting, and again, this is stuff I honestly wish was taught in, like, a mandatory class. This stuff really matters. We know that in other areas of our life. The assumptions I have dictate the interventions I use. Well, with parenting, we have to really check our assumptions. Now, here's what's really tricky, but here's also the space I love to work in. Most of us, when we acted out as kids, we were looked at as bad kids. We were punished. There was something scary that happened, right? Our behaviors when we were kids were looked at as a sign of our identity,

8. 9:14 – 10:22

   A workplace analogy: understanding the “why” dissolves power struggles

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy9:14

      and if that's true for you, you are predisposed to see your kid as a bad kid when they act out because that's the worldview that was imparted to you by your parents, and I have empathy for your parents. That's probably the worldview that was imparted to them by their parents, and this is generational. So that's where most of us go. But again, with this dad, he said, "You know, I think about an ongoing conflict I have with an employee, and something that really broke things in a really positive way and allowed for some positive movement was I actually started to understand my kind of employee's side of things. Instead of just seeing this conflict as a sign of him being difficult, I understood where he was coming from. It didn't mean I agreed with him, but that kind of broke the power struggle. That kind of broke the ice." So again, taking that idea and applying it to our kids. Here's

9. 10:22 – 11:24

   Kids have feelings without skills: why punishment doesn’t teach regulation

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy10:22

      the next thing I shared, and this might seem like a broken record, but sometimes I hope I sound like a broken record, 'cause by the time I've said something enough that you're kind of rolling your eyes and you're like, "Dr. Becky, move on," that actually means it's been internalized. So when someone kind of rolls their eyes and says, "I've heard it before," I actually see that as a huge victory for me. So if that's happening, that's awesome. Kids are born with all the feelings and none of the skills to manage those feelings. That's actually profound if you think about a kid's existence. They're born with all the anger and none of the feelings to manage anger. They're born with the ability to feel jealous of a sibling and no skills to manage jealousy. I don't know about you, but I soften when I think about that 'cause I think, "Oh my goodness, what a horribly vulnerable existence it is to be a child." No wonder they look like tornadoes sometimes. They feel like tornadoes sometimes. And if I think about this, that kids are born with all the feelings and none of the skills, I just think about skill-building in general.

10. 11:24 – 13:25

    The swim-class test: visible consequences aren’t the same as learning

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy11:24

       I don't know if I'd ever sign my kid up for a swim class with a teacher who said, "I'm gonna teach your kid to swim by sending them to their room, and I'm gonna threaten to take their iPad away. In a couple weeks they're gonna learn how to swim." I'd be like, "Yeah, I don't know about that. I'm not even sure why that logically would make sense. What are they doing in their room? Are they, are they googling it? Are they, like, somehow absorbing it from their neighbor?" I, I just, I don't know how the sending to their room is going to result in the skill of swimming. Obviously, that's an absurd example, but I actually think it's equally absurd that we think sending our kids to their room is going to lead to the building of a skill of how to manage anger. My kid was rude to me because they didn't have the skill to manage their anger. The answer isn't to punish the symptom. The answer is to solve the problem The problem is not their rudeness. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's not enjoyable. The rudeness is a symptom of the problem. The problem is that my kid doesn't have the skill to manage a feeling, and yes, we are all kind of preconditioned to just react to the behavior, and we feel desperate, and to some degree we get to feel powerful in a moment. We say, "Go to your room," and then we say something we watch have impact, "No TV for a week," and then we watch our kid be upset, and we somehow tell ourselves them being upset about a punishment is a sign that they're gonna change their behavior. We actually know from research that how upset a kid is at a punishment has no impact on them changing their behavior, and that makes sense. If my kid couldn't swim and I said, "Go to your room until you learn to swim, and no dessert tonight," they would be very upset. I, I, I still don't think any of us would be like, "Becky, them being upset about taking away dessert is, is definitely not gonna lead to them learning how to swim." It's a visible sign, and we like visible signs, but it doesn't even make sense about why that would lead to change. Again, with this dad, we went back to his employee, let's say someone who was late all the time. He even said, "You have to be

11. 13:25 – 15:28

    Sturdy, not permissive: firm boundaries plus connection in the same moment

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy13:25

       on time. You have to be on time," and still an employee was late. Would he say, "Look, I, I'm not paying for your lunch this week. I'm just not"? Or would it be more effective to say, "Hey, come into my office. Hey, you've been late. It's been happening a lot. Look, I actually know you're a good person who understands punctuality, and I believe you wanna do well for this company. I believe that, which lets me know there's something getting in your way of getting here on time, and I'm saying that from a place of being your teammate who wants to figure this out with you, not from a place of criticism"? And, you know, hearing me model that to you, I just wonder, are you thinking, "Oh, my goodness, my boss is so permissive. My boss does not care about me being late. I'm gonna keep being late"? I mean, I don't think any reasonable adult would think that. Any reasonable adult would say, "I have the best manager in the world," not because they're permissive, but because they're working with me to figure out a problem, and the only reason I'm stuck is probably because I don't have someone with me to work through the problem. Now that I do, and now that I'm connected to my manager and they see me in a generous light, I wanna do really well for my manager. I would bet that employee's getting there 15 minutes early the next day. I would bet it. And I would bet when you say to your kid, "Hey, I'm not gonna let you hit your sister, and it's really hard to now all of a sudden have your sister be at an age where you actually have to start sharing time and sharing toys with her," I get that that's tricky. Let's figure out what you can do about it in a way that's still safe for everyone. I would bet that your kid is going to stop hitting a lot more quickly than when we send them to their room and take away their dessert. One more point that was really powerful in this conversation. The idea that punishing my kid is going to lead to positive behavior change has an important baked-in

12. 15:28 – 17:29

    Why punishment fails in the moment: logic goes offline during big feelings

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy15:28

       assumption that in the moment right before my son hits his sister, he's gonna pause and say, "Whoa, hold up, five-year-old child. The last time I hit, I did have a punishment, and so now that I'm realizing that with such forethought, I'm going to control my body and not hit." Here's the problem with that assumption. The reason my kid hits is because their logic system, their reasoning system is, number one, underdeveloped as a child, but number two, actually offline. Emotions, feelings overwhelmed my kid's ability to access logic. We are assuming that punishment, which in some ways is a system of logic, if I hit, I get punished, my child will have access to logic in the moment they don't have access to logic. I, I, it's-- I'm, I'm sorry to say it, it's just not a logical way of thinking. Our kid, right before they act out, honestly, I'm gonna be honest, just like me before I act out, right before I do something I wish I could take back, I don't know, I yell at my husband, or I react in a way at work, I am overwhelmed with emotions. We act out because emotions overpower logic. We don't have access to the thoughts in that moment. We would have to have a skill to manage our emotion to be able to access logic, which is why this goes back to helping kids build skills, not punish the manifestation of not having those skills in the first place. So where did I end with this dad? You know, we had this whole retreat. We had so many of these conversations, and he ended up saying to the end, "I'm gonna think about it." I kinda thought I got him, you know? But he

13. 17:29 – 20:36

    Closing: curiosity about assumptions + learning the “sturdy leader” skillset

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy17:29

       was like, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna still think about this." I get it. You know, anyone who's skeptical about not punishing their kids, I, I think I just wanna come out and say this. I actually think it's a sign of how much you love and care about your kids. You really care about their future. You're invested. You want to do this thing in a way that's going to set them up. I promise you I do too, and in that way, we're actually very alike. And all I would ask, and for me too, is for all of us to just start to notice some assumptions we have. Start to be curious about ourselves. "Huh, I wonder where that thought comes from. If I didn't accept a certain thought I had as true, what might I ask myself?" I don't have to assume the thought is false, but if I just kind of put it in the bucket of things I can evaluate, things I can break down and wonder about, what might come next? The other thing I just wanna come out and say is when I'm asked about Good Inside parenting and how I would describe it, the, the word I would use is sturdy. It's honestly the same word I use in the Good Inside workplace about what we look for in our leaders and the kind of standard I hold myself to, being a sturdy leader. That's what you need in a workplace. That's what you need from your pilot. That's what our kids need from us. And to me, the essence of sturdiness is a duality that honestly, until the Good Inside approach, I don't really think existed in a step-by-step way for parents. And the duality is a sturdy parent is at once able to set boundaries from a place of appropriately embodying their authority, and is able to stay connected to their kid and see their kid as a good kid all at the same time. Boundaries, connection, these things go together. Our best leaders in the workplace, our best coaches on the athletic field, our best parents, they do both of these. I, I also just wanna add, this doesn't come naturally. I think this is something that's really held parents back. What comes naturally with our kids is simply what our parents did with us. It's in our bones. It's our factory settings. And I think about parenting as a skill we can learn, just like an emotion regulation skill, just like a swimming skill. Kids don't learn to swim at a certain birthday. It's not gifted to them, you know, in a book. I think the same thing as parenting. Parenting in a way that's different from what came before us, parenting in a way that feels like a shift, but not too far of a shift that you're like, "Ooh, I went so far in the other direction. I feel permissive now," is just about a set of skills. And this truly is what gets me out of bed every day in the morning, is making sure parents know you can learn this way of relating to your kids, relating to your self. And yes, this stuff, as you learn it, is gonna change how you relate to people in the workplace and relate to your partner in all the most amazing ways. And so if you're someone who likes next steps, please just check out everything we have at goodinside.com. It might not be for now, but it might be for a time that you say, "Yeah, I'm kind of ready to learn this skill." And I just wanna say I'm honored to be with any and all of you along this journey. [upbeat music] Thank

14. 20:36 – 23:27

    Outro: resources, membership, and the “good inside” grounding practice

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy20:36

       you for listening. To share a story or ask me a question, go to goodinside.com/podcast, or you could write me at podcast@goodinside.com. Parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world, and you deserve resources and support so you feel empowered and confident for this very important job you hold. I'm so excited to share Good Inside Membership. It's the first platform that brings together content and experts you trust with a global community of like-valued parents. It's game-changing and built for a busy parent who wants to make the most out of the few minutes they have. One last thing before I let you go. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves, even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside. [upbeat music] Today's episode is in partnership with Airbnb and AG1.

Episode duration: 23:27