How to Raise Emotionally Mature Kids | Dr. Lindsay Gibson & Dr. Becky

1. 0:00 – 1:30

   When small kid moments trigger big parent reactions

   1. BEDr. Becky0:00

      You know that moment as a parent when your kid does something objectively minor but super annoying, like asks you the same question for the fifth time, or they spill something right after you poured it again, and you have a reaction, and you tell yourself, "Well, it was annoying," but you also kind of know there was something else going on for me. I had a pretty big reaction to the situation. And part of you might be thinking, "That just escalated really quickly." And then later, things are calm, and you have this thought, "Why did that get so big?" And maybe you have actually what I think is a beautiful thought. What's going on inside me? I think so many of us go into parenting assuming the hardest part is gonna be managing my kids' behavior, and then pretty quickly we realize the hardest part is managing my own behavior about my kids' behavior. And this is what we're gonna be talking about today. Emotional maturity. What does that really mean in real life? And how it's not the same as being calm or patient all the time, and how actually it's all about these tiny everyday moments, and then actually what we do or do not do after. Dr. Lindsay Gibson has spent years helping people understand their relationships to their own emotionally immature parents. I just said her name again. I know you're excited, because you probably read her popular book about

2. 1:30 – 2:45

   Why Dr. Gibson shifted from adult children to parenting emotionally mature kids

   1. BEDr. Becky1:30

      being an adult child of an emotionally immature parent, and I'm having her here now to talk about how to raise emotionally mature kids. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. I'm so glad you're here. Dr. Gibson, you have spent so much of your career addressing kind of adult children of emotionally immature parents. I, I just want to start by asking you, like, what made you shift focus at this point to raising emotionally mature kids?

   2. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson2:05

      That's a great question, uh, because it wasn't something that I had on my radar, um, uh, when I started doing the work on, uh, the adult children part, of course. But it just became more and more apparent to me that a lot of the people that were coming to see me had concerns about their parenting and whether or not they were gonna be able to be good parents to their children. I mean, they were working on their issues from their past with their emotionally immature parents, and they, they had concerns about how to be a good parent. So, I ended up doing a lot of parent coaching with them-

   3. BEDr. Becky2:42

      Mm-hmm

   4. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson2:42

      ... and then it sort of segued into this.

3. 2:45 – 3:45

   The "fork in the road": defensiveness vs. seeing your child’s perspective

   1. BEDr. Becky2:45

      You know, one thing that comes to mind as you're talking is, you know, and I was just talking to some of my friends about this, is our kids all the time come to us and they tell us about a tricky situation with us. Right? They're like, "I didn't like that you went out to dinner last night, and I had homework, and I wanted you to be there." Right? And I do think there's this fork in the road, right, where, number one, do I see that as, oh my goodness, that feels like a dagger to me, so all I'm doing is, like, defending myself. I kind of even forgot my kid is a protagonist [laughs] in the story. Now I'm just like, I'm just trying to manage my own guilt, my own anger. What are you talking about? I've been home for 45 nights in a row. This is the one night. Whatever it is, I'm so overwhelmed by our emotion. Or am I able to see this as kind of like a window into my kid and information and probably even a larger discussion than just one night, right? And I, I... When you were talking about emotional immaturity, I kept thinking about that first road. Like, all roads lead back to me.

4. 3:45 – 5:08

   What emotionally immature reactions look like in real time

   1. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson3:45

      Yes, and that's such a great example, because you said the phrase, "a window into your child". Okay?

   2. BEDr. Becky3:53

      Mm.

   3. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson3:53

      The emotionally immature person is not looking for any window into anybody. They are so consumed with whatever it is that's going on with them emotionally. Because, you know, they've kinda got one foot on a banana peel emotionally speaking. They're not well-regulated. They- their self-esteem is very vulnerable and easily threatened. So, they're always looking at, are you making me feel better about myself, and can I count on you to keep me emotionally stable when I need you to? And that extends to their kids, too, unfortunately.

   4. BEDr. Becky4:30

      So then if their kid's upset, it's seen through the light of a little, like, "Who are you to rock my emotional instability?" My kid's not even really, um, like a person. They're almost like an object in my world or something.

   5. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson4:43

      They're a stimulus. They're a stimulus that they're reacting to. And the, you know, the really sad thing about it is that they don't, they don't have any choice about that. And then they don't have the awareness or the self-reflection to wonder why their kid got worse in their behavior rather than better. [laughs] So, it's a self-perpetuating, you know, spiral downward sometimes.

5. 5:08 – 7:30

   Defining emotional maturity: flexibility, complexity, and self-correction

   1. BEDr. Becky5:08

      Okay. So, I could talk to you about this forever. We're gonna have to do that one, that version. First book topic over here. But I'm gonna, you know, restrain myself. Okay. Emotional maturity. Uh, what, what does that, what does that mean to be emotionally mature? Tell us.

   2. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson5:24

      Yeah. Well, we've all met these people too, fortunately, because they're out there. And they're people that they come into a situation, they start dealing with the people or the facts or whatever it is, and things start falling into order, and things start making sense with people who are integrated like this inside. And they also can ask themselves that all-important question: "Is there anything that I have done-

   3. BEDr. Becky5:51

      Mm

   4. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson5:51

      ... or I am doing that's making the situation worse?" And then they can change course, 'cause they have flexible, complex minds that are not all black and white or good and bad. But can reflect sort of the, the complexity of reality, which makes them a true grown-up

   5. BEDr. Becky6:10

      And, you know, one of the things I think about a lot, and I think it's in parallel with what you're saying, is our ability, and I wanna teach our kids this ability, but even our ability as a parent to separate kind of my core identity from any given moment or behavior, right? Because I think what you're saying, to reflect on ourselves as an adult, am I bringing something to this equation? Wait, what's going on for me about this? Whoa, my kid's whining a lot. That's definitely annoying, but my reaction's pretty big. What is that about? I, I have to be able to say, like, "This is who I am as a person, and here is a moment." Like, that moment, that reaction, that interaction doesn't fully define me in, in ev- every single time. Is that right?

   6. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson6:50

      Yeah. Well said. Yes. Absolutely.

   7. BEDr. Becky6:52

      We conjure up this picture of this emotionally mature person, but I know one of the things you write about is you meet an emotionally mature, let's just say 40-year-old. Like, and you can tell with some of those people, oh, you like being around them. Like, they feel, like you said, very sturdy. That didn't start at 39, right?

   8. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson7:08

      Right.

   9. BEDr. Becky7:09

      That didn't start the year before. So let's get into some of the how, right? That's your book, how to, How to Raise an Emotionally Mature Child, and certainly anybody listening, you're right. Like, maybe you have these moments with a three-year-old or a six-year-old, but you have a whole lot of moments where you're gonna be thinking your kid is emotionally immature, which they are, because they're six or they're nine, right? Um, but what, what are some of the pillars?

6. 7:30 – 9:25

   Core pillars of raising emotional maturity: attachment, reality maps, and emotional literacy

   1. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson7:30

      One of the things that comes first is they're learning how to attach, how to relate, how to love, how to be with other people in a way that gives them a sense of belonging. That's, you know, babyhood, uh, originally. And then, um, they're also, uh, always building up an internal model of reality. Like a, they're building a template, a map, a map of the territory. Like, how does this world work, as if they were, you know, newcomers to the planet, which i- is exactly what they are. They have to build all this stuff inside themselves so they have a model that helps them to recognize and think about what's going on in the outside world. So we wanna make sure that, uh, we help our child out with that by sort of explaining how things work. And we want them to be able to, um, express and, after a while, identify their emotions so that their emotional life is something that they're very familiar with, very comfortable with. B- they begin to know the words for emotions and can express them. Um, you know, later in childhood they begin to differentiate, uh, fine points of emotion, like I'm, I'm irritated or I'm frustrated, as opposed to I'm mad. Uh, so, so there's a, a subtlety and a complexity that comes along with that. But they have to learn about their emotions, otherwise their emotions become their master. And their emotions are supposed to be our advisors. So we wanna help them with that. And-

   2. BEDr. Becky9:24

      I, I wanna like-

7. 9:25 – 10:34

   Emotions as driver vs. passenger: teaching regulation without denying feelings

   1. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson9:25

      Yeah

   2. BEDr. Becky9:25

      ... pause for a second just because I think what you said is so important. Um, I think you and I agree, can't get rid of the emotions, just can't. That's not an option. So we're gonna shelf that one for now. [laughs] So we tried for, we've tried for generations, right?

   3. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson9:40

      [laughs]

   4. BEDr. Becky9:40

      Hazards, hazards example.

   5. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson9:41

      That's a great... Yes, we did. We tried for generations.

   6. BEDr. Becky9:44

      Yeah. Right?

   7. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson9:44

      [laughs]

   8. BEDr. Becky9:44

      No one's done it yet. So I don't know if kids ever really logic their way through emotions, like what's gonna happen if I do this. I, I don't know. I, I, I don't even know if a lot of, maybe some adults do. But it, I guess what I think about is whether your emotion is, like, the driver of your car, or whether they're, like, a passenger. Because if frustration is in the driver's seat, well, frustration's just gonna act itself out. But when it's in the passenger seat, like you said, which I agree with, it can be this advisor. Hold on, I'm frustrated.

   9. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson10:15

      Yeah. I, I, I love that analogy, because that's, that's really what it is. The thinking I'm talking about is split second. It's right brain, something that the, the, sort of the emotional side of our brain can calculate in a split second.

   10. BEDr. Becky10:32

       Yeah.

   11. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson10:32

       Situational awareness.

8. 10:34 – 12:28

   After the push/hit: intervention that builds maturity (not permissiveness)

   1. BEDr. Becky10:34

      Yeah. And so for the parent who's thinking, "Oh, but my kid already did push his sibling, so what do I do? What do I do in that situation? Or what do I do in the next come moment?" It's not like emotional maturity's coming overnight, but h- how do we get back to that path?

   2. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson10:50

      To the path of helping them with their emotional maturation?

   3. BEDr. Becky10:53

      Yeah, exactly.

   4. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson10:54

      Yeah.

   5. BEDr. Becky10:54

      It's like, okay, the hitting happened, the pushing happened. Like, what do I do next? Dr. Gibson, I wanna raise an emotionally mature child. I think I've got some work to do, but [laughs] what, what are some of the steps that can help?

   6. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson11:05

      Yeah. Well, typically what would happen with a, a parent who was aware of this is that the parent would intervene. The parent would come in and say, "Hey, what's going on here?" Okay? That, that is letting the child know, "I notice when things like this happen." That's the first thing. "I'm listening to you. I'm watching over your little brother. Uh, I'm watching over you, and I'm, I'm concerned, and I'm interested in what just happened." So maybe I hear from them, and then it becomes a, uh... And, and you've, you've done this so beautifully in your work, Becky, really. Um, it becomes an opportunity for the parent to talk to the older child about-

   7. BEDr. Becky11:50

      Yeah

   8. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson11:50

      ... what happened and how they felt about it.

   9. BEDr. Becky11:53

      Yeah.

   10. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson11:54

       And talk about, um, how they think their little brother felt. Um, w- and also to ask them You know, do you think you could have done something differently with this? Because now-

   11. BEDr. Becky12:08

       Yeah

   12. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson12:08

       ... your little brother's really upset. He's crying. And then maybe they, maybe they say, "N- no, he pushed me," and they don't wanna talk about it. But you can come back to it later if the child becomes defensive and doesn't wanna talk about it. Just, just to brainstorm, yeah, what do you do when, when somebody does something like that to you?

9. 12:28 – 14:08

   Why repeat, repeat, repeat beats "going gangbusters"

   1. BEDr. Becky12:28

      Yeah. So question for you. I know you know me well enough to know I don't believe this, but I think with a parent who's like, is that, is that permissive? Like, is that gonna lead to emotional immaturity? My kid just pushed the sibling, and now later I'm saying like, "What was going on for you, and what could you have done differently?" Like, that's not how I was raised. So h- how do you, how do you think about that?

   2. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson12:50

      Yeah, I think, I think parents feel a tremendous amount of pressure to do everything right. And, you know, that's not how it works. It, it, it's not how any of us learn. We all learn by repetition.

   3. BEDr. Becky13:05

      Mm.

   4. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson13:05

      And we all learn best, I mean, if you want the kind of learning that, uh, is integrated into your, like, your morals, moral code or your-

   5. BEDr. Becky13:15

      Yeah

   6. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson13:16

      ... your, your interpersonal relationships, you want something that you kind of understand and fall back on. That kind of learning takes repetition and it takes understanding. So, you know, bad news is that the best car- parenting [laughs] uh, mantra that I know is repeat, repeat, repeat. Because they're not gonna get it the first time. And if you come on like gangbusters in a very emotionally stimulating or overwhelming way, they're going to learn at a very deep level, this is below the conscious level, that at times things don't feel very safe with you, that you get so upset that they know they better not upset you further.

   7. BEDr. Becky14:04

      Ugh.

   8. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson14:04

      What great modeling for adult life-

   9. BEDr. Becky14:07

      Ugh

   10. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson14:07

       ... right? [laughs]

10. 14:08 – 18:31

    Quiet moments matter: connection and right-brain resonance build the foundation

    1. BEDr. Becky14:08

       You know, the other thing I think a lot about with parents is we all have these hard moments. Our kid's hitting, our kid lies to us, they slam the door, "You're the worst mom ever. We never do anything in this family." And you're like, "I just took you to Six Flags." Like, you know? Um, and then we have this hard moment, we survive it, and then there's all these quiet moments in between, right? Where I feel like so many parents feel so much pressure to get it right and, like, build this emotional maturity in the hard moments. But I'm curious your opinion on the hard moments versus, you know, the quiet moments, the things that you can do when, you know, you're actually just kind of chilling together and it's not a peak situation.

    2. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson14:49

       Yeah. Well, if you think about, um... I, I like to use examples from adult relationships too, because there really isn't that much difference. Um, and in any kind of long-term, committed relationship, uh, or I mean, it could even be between roommates.

    3. BEDr. Becky15:11

       Mm-hmm.

    4. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson15:11

       But there are moments of what we might call peaceful coexistence, and those are some of the sweetest, most connected, safe-feeling times in our relationship with somebody. These are, are the quiet times where we feel so safe with the other person that we're not needing to check in with them or, uh, monitor them. We're just able to be ourselves with them. So when you're doing that, being comfortable with each other, maybe you're each doing your own thing, that's one of the times when you're building that connection. The second thing I would say about it is that whenever you get a chance to make eye contact with your kid, and that, uh, sort of, uh, resonance gets to occur between your right brain and their right brain, and there's a, a kind of a feeling of, um, connection that you get me, I get you, w- we're both seeing each other, that there's nothing big or, or special about that in terms of it being a, you know, an eventful moment, but it lets the child know, and it reminds you, that we're here to make that kind of connection with each other. That's what feeds us. That's what puts the, the gas back in the tank. That's what fills us up and makes us feel really good inside. It's... I mean, we wanna give them all these other opportunities that have to do with, you know, developing their minds and developing their skills, of course. We wanna socialize them, all that stuff. But if we're not aware that they're really real inside, that they have a subjective inner world just like we do, that they feel things just as deeply and as painfully as we do, if we don't realize that, then we don't help our children learn about th- this very deep human side of themselves, and they don't learn how to handle it well.

    5. BEDr. Becky17:29

       Yeah. A- and I think what you're saying, which is so powerful, is kids have a whole real internal life. And at the same time, because they're kids and they're forming their sense of self and their circuitry in relationship with us, if we don't approach them like that's true, they won't end up feeling like it's true, and that's so much around emotional immaturity, right?

    6. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson17:51

       A- absolutely. Yes, because the way that that becomes true, that you have an inner world and an inner self that you can call upon to become resilient, uh, and how important is that in success? Um, but you have something to fall back on within yourself. That comes from your relatedness to the important people in your life. So it's not, it's not the cherry on top. Uh, it is the ice cream. I mean, this is where, uh, where everything happens is in the recognition of what's going on inside that kid.

11. 18:31 – 20:57

    Bedtime resistance as communication: why adults regress when tired and stressed

    1. BEDr. Becky18:31

       And let's walk through an example, because I also want to show parents that when you recognize your kid has a whole internal world, I know, Lindsay, I speak for both of us in saying it's not like we'd say, "Oh, because they have an inner world, just let them scream and hit and do all the things." No. Right? That's, that's a different thing. So let's take an example where you've been with your kid, you even had a nice evening, and now it's time for your kid to brush their teeth. You know, you're gonna read them a book and put them to bed, and there's just massive resistance, massive protest. "Not going to my room." Let's start with the mindset where you're not really thinking about the fact that your kid has an inner world. What do you think if we play that out? How is a parent going to respond under that mindset?

    2. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson19:13

       Yes. Well, uh, th- this is something that I think is hard to remember [laughs] under those conditions because we get reactive, and our emotional maturity ourselves as, as adults goes down when we are stressed, tired, or sick. Okay?

    3. BEDr. Becky19:32

       Mm.

    4. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson19:32

       We slide right down the continuum into emotionally immature reactions whenever those three things happen. So at the end of the day when the child doesn't wanna go to bed, believe me, we are not at our-

    5. BEDr. Becky19:44

       Ugh

    6. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson19:44

       ... best either, okay? We just wanna-

    7. BEDr. Becky19:46

       Yep

    8. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson19:46

       ... solve the problem, get them in bed, and, you know, go watch television or whatever we're gonna do that evening.

    9. BEDr. Becky19:52

       Yep.

    10. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson19:53

        So it, it, it, it's a bit of an acquired skill to get in the frame of mind of treating every unpleasant situation as something that is a signal or a communication of their internal world. In other words, the behavior for a child is the way they communicate. They can't say, "Oh, Mother, Father, I'm experiencing separation anxiety after this long day, and it's hard for me to have a sense of safety when I lie down in my dark room." I mean, they can't do that. Okay?

    11. BEDr. Becky20:35

        Right. I mean, let's be honest. I think about a friend going on a work trip whose partner tends to, like, start to give her a hard time before she leaves, after she leaves, and he's not even completely emotionally immature. Us adults don't always say, "Hey, I'm experiencing separation anxiety." [laughs]

    12. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson20:50

        [laughs]

    13. BEDr. Becky20:50

        We act it out sometimes too.

    14. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson20:51

        Oh-

    15. BEDr. Becky20:52

        Right?

    16. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson20:52

        ... completely. It's-

    17. BEDr. Becky20:53

        [laughs]

    18. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson20:53

        ... it is very human. Okay?

    19. BEDr. Becky20:55

        Yes.

    20. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson20:56

        [laughs]

12. 20:57 – 23:04

    A concrete practice: resist the power-rush of losing it and aim for long-range outcomes

    1. BEDr. Becky20:57

       So for the parent listening who would love one or two concrete things to do, what can a parent do today to say, "I did something. I am doing something today that I know is building toward emotional maturity"?

    2. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson21:09

       Mm-hmm. It would, it would be basically to be able to say to yourself, "I resisted the impulse to lose it."

    3. BEDr. Becky21:18

       Mm.

    4. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson21:19

       Because w- we all experience the impulse to lose it when we're tired or stressed. Um, and it's the easiest thing in the world to do. It gives us a little power rush. We feel like we have been very effective as a parent. We feel like, uh, we have just shown ourselves that we can handle this in an authoritative way, and we feel good about that. But we won't feel good about it, um, later on when the child is fussy the next day, or they wake up with a nightmare, or they come and climb in bed at 3:00 in the morning. Uh, things have costs. And so to have that attitude of, "I'm going to handle this as best I can," now there's some times when you're not gonna be proud of how you react, but if I handle this with the eye toward, "I want the best possible long-range outcome," then see what comes to you in that moment about dealing with the child in a way that calms them down, or you work a deal with them, or you get them to look forward to something in the morning that you'll get to do, or we, uh, do a, you know, do a massage, or we do another song, or will they agree to that, and then will they go to bed? So you're, you're doing a, a bit of a collaborative n- uh, negotiation. That's not giving your power away. That's making sure that the outcome is going to be less bad than it would've been if you had lost it on them. That's all.

13. 23:04 – 27:00

    Dr. Becky’s wrap-up: “good kid having a hard time” and the curiosity cheat sheet

    1. BEDr. Becky23:04

       I love this image of thinking about your kids' annoying, difficult, less than ideal behavior as a window into their internal world. Now, I wanna say this does not mean we're permitting the behavior. Being curious about what's going on under bad behavior is simply a foundation to be able to intervene effectively. Like, if I had a habit of dropping my cellphone all the time and it cracking, and you heard me say, "I wonder what's going on for me. I wonder why I keep doing that," I don't think you'd say, "Becky, you are really permitting this whole dropping cellphone thing." You'd probably just say, "Yeah, of course you have to figure out why so you can change it." So that's what I wanna think about right now with you, and I want you right now in this instant to think about a behavior in your kid that is driving you nuts or that is ongoing. Maybe it's hitting. Maybe it's stealing. Maybe it's lying to your face. Maybe it's the bedtime protest. Maybe it's, "I'm not gonna wash my body in the bath." Whatever it is. And the first thing I wanna do is I want us to say something together. I just want you to put your hand on your heart and say, "I have a good kid." "I have a good kid having a hard time. I have a good kid who," and then say the behavior. "I have a good kid who's in a hitting stage. I have a good kid who won't wash their body in the bath. I have a good kid who's lying to my face." And after we've set the stage around that, I just want you to ask yourself, with generosity, "I wonder what's going on for my kid?" And I want you to really think about that behavior in your mind as a window into kind of the house that is your child. So there's the lying, and now you're almost gonna try to look through it, and no one can do that with clarity. There's no perfect answer, but it's the practice of trying to look through that actually builds all the emotional maturity we're talking about. So it's not about getting the right answer. It's actually just about the process of wondering. And here's my little cheat sheet. When I really can't figure it out and I'm kind of still in, "Oh, my kid's so annoying," mode, I just say to myself, "Why would I do that thing? Why would I be a kid who hits on a play date? Why would I lie to my parent at age eight? Why would I not wash my body in a bath? What's my most generous interpretation of why?" Now, there's obviously so much we can do after. There's then, "Okay, well, what do I do with that?" But it's actually a lot just to do that exercise, a lot meaning really powerful. And so I hope that gave you a tiny shift or maybe a new perspective, and I hope you know even going through that process is really big in terms of building emotional maturity. And I also feel like I wanna make sure you know that if you're looking for next steps and if you're looking for parents having honest, real, human, not AI, conversations about how we're raising kids and how we raise emotionally mature kids and how we still hold kids accountable for their behavior when we're also looking at their behavior as a window into their eternal life, that's what we do in the Good Inside community in the Good Inside app. And if you haven't already checked it out, just go to goodinside.com to learn more. It's always good to know about the resources that are available when you might want to take that next step. Okay, let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground, place a hand on your heart, and let's remind ourselves, even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I'll see you soon. [outro music]

Episode duration: 27:00