How We Grow Up: Inside the Adolescent Brain with Matt Richtel

1. 0:00 – 2:27

   Why Matt Richtel wrote the book: beyond the “teen mental health crisis” headline

   1. BEDr. Becky0:00

      All right. Today I'm speaking with Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and a dad of teenagers, Matt Richtel. Matt spent nearly two years reporting a powerful nine-part series in The New York Times on the post-pandemic adolescent mental health crisis, and the project evolved into a brand-new book. His book is How We Grow Up: Understanding Adolescence, and it's out today, July 8th. Matt and I had one of the most amazing conversations I've had with anyone in my life. It was truly one of those moments where I thought, "Oh, my goodness, how are we already at time? I could talk to you forever." You want to hear this conversation whether you have an adolescent or not. I promise you it's going to make you think new things. It's going to make you do something different in your home today, and I promise you it will not leave you feeling, "Ugh, it's too late," because it's actually all about what we do after the moments, like me, we mess up. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this. Hi, Matt.

   2. MRMatt Richtel1:03

      Hi, Becky. How are you?

   3. BEDr. Becky1:05

      I am... I'm good. I'm so excited to talk. Matt, I want to jump in just talking about your new book, How We Grow Up. I, I, I loved it. It's so important. And, and maybe we could just start, tell me a little bit about either your reacher- research process or, or your why. Like, what was going on that led you to write the book, that drove this?

   4. MRMatt Richtel1:25

      Yeah. W- um, first of all, thank you for asking. And, uh, ag- I will repeat, it's really great to be here. I've been listening to your show of late, and I, I really appreciate the fact that you're trying to make practical what can als- often be esoteric and glib, and I will make the same effort. And it, it's in that spirit in a way that got me working on this. I had done, spent two years doing a series on the adolescent mental health crisis, if you wanna call it that, and I realized in the course of reporting that that there was a fundamental question left unanswered, and that is, what is the nature of adolescence itself? And Becky, that, interestingly, that question, um, there's a much fresher answer than there has been in about 125 years, and it is absolutely material in explaining what's happening now to teens and adolescents,

2. 2:27 – 4:42

   A new definition of adolescence: integrating the known and the unknown

   1. MRMatt Richtel2:27

      two different things, um, and what we do about it. That's what led me into this. Also, Becky, I have two adolescents, [laughs] and I was like, "Hey, maybe I could learn something." [laughs] But, but what I learned, Becky, fundamentally that I would love to just ground this in, unless you steer me otherwise, is what adolescence is, and I, I come up with a framework synthesizing a whole bunch of research that I think reframes what we think of as adolescence, and this is what I would offer you. Adolescence is a process with a definitive purpose to integrate the known and the unknown.

   2. BEDr. Becky3:17

      Mm.

   3. MRMatt Richtel3:18

      What is known is what our parents and prior generations tell us, and what is unknown is two things. One, what actually works in the world, not what we've been told as adolescents, but what actually works. And secondarily, what new ground might we carve out as a generation in an effort to survive as individuals and as a new generation? So, uh, what we've thought for decades, Becky, centuries, is that this was a period of almost primitive, boorish, atavistic behavior. In point of fact, it is an inflection point of information processing the likes-

   4. BEDr. Becky4:08

      Mm

   5. MRMatt Richtel4:08

      ... of which you will never go through again.

   6. BEDr. Becky4:11

      So just, uh, I, I love that big picture idea. So adolescence, it, it has a purpose, right? There's this goal. There's something that has to be figured out, and this integration of what's known and unknown, what has been given to you and all of the things you could explore and discover. Like, your body, your brain is trying to synthesize, make sense of, balance, weigh, fig- figure out that equation.

3. 4:42 – 5:51

   Puberty as a neurological “big bang”: why teens orient outside the home

   1. MRMatt Richtel4:42

      I, I want you to imagine that you've been given a user manual by your parents, except that survival is too delicate and fragile to merely take the word of the manual. You must explore and probe, by definition, are you to survive. May I just pop into a bit of biology for a second?

   2. BEDr. Becky5:08

      I love... Do more than pop in. Just wade, wade in some biology.

   3. MRMatt Richtel5:13

      I will, I will wa- I will go ramsh-

   4. BEDr. Becky5:14

      [laughs]

   5. MRMatt Richtel5:14

      I will drown myself in biology.

   6. BEDr. Becky5:16

      And I will lift you out to, to continue the conversation. So you go first.

   7. MRMatt Richtel5:21

      In order to facilitate this evolution, if you will, biology, in order to facilitate this period of experimentation and probing, it sets off some hormones that prompt people to become hyper-aware of their environment. Adolescents. At puberty, which we tend to think of as this gateway to reproduction, in point of fact is this very fundamental neurological

4. 5:51 – 7:51

   Under the hood: MRI evidence that “strangers” become more rewarding than parents

   1. MRMatt Richtel5:51

      event in which a, a, a big bang of understanding suddenly the world around you, and you become hyper-attune through your hormones to people and things outside your home. I, I, I'll, I'll just give you one... I, what's fascinating today, Becky, that distinguishes this moment from all prior research in science is that for the first time we can look under the hood of the adolescent brain. And for centuries, the idea was that we've watched their behavior and tried to reverse engineer what was going on. But now, by way of example, we can see the changes inside the brain that a- that make people very alert at adolescence to their surroundings. And I'll just give you one bit of science that might hone in. There's a study out of Stanford called Pwiedischwalt, which sounds like a nonsense word, and it is. A Stanford researcher puts young children and adolescents in an, in an MRI machine and watches their brains, and watches the brains as the young people hear nonsense words spoken by three different people, their mothers and two complete strangers. And as puberty onsets and the hormones set in, the young person's brain lights up when the stranger talks. At younger ages, it's when the parent talks. The reward systems of the brain have become hyper attuned to the environment outside the home. Why would this be? Because for 10, 11, 12 years, you've been ca- taken care of in your home, and now you have to survive outside of it. You better well understand what's going on.

5. 7:51 – 10:01

   Explorer vs. nomad: keeping a teen’s home base without taking it personally

   1. BEDr. Becky7:51

      Uh, okay. So there's so many... Th- first of all, I'm taking copious notes. I'm taking copious notes. And I, no, but I, and I appreciate it. I'm learning so much. These are my favorite conversations, and I'm like, and so many things are pinging in my brain. But the first thing that's loud is that I wanna run by you, because when I talk to parents about teens, right, and kind of what's going on and what they need, and everyone's like, "What do I do about this? What do I do about this?" And I love all the practical stuff, I do, but to me, practical stuff without a fundamental understanding of what's really happening or a framework is useless. It doesn't even come to us in the moment 'cause we have no grounding to plant our strategic flags into. So one of the things I tell parents, and I'm wondering if this lines up with the biology, is like essentially for the first number of years of your kid's life, they, they live in your house. And, and, and obviously they leave your house, but proverbially, they live in your house. They're so happy to be there. They're building up comfort. They're building up safety independence. We all build up our capacity to be independent by how comfortable we are being relatively dependent and having that base. And then the door opens, and, and one of the things I think happens is, right, kids in adolescence are supposed to be explorers. They are supposed to travel around the world, because you can't really learn about the customs of other countries if you're not there. But one of the things that happens in this period when kids are understandably, and therefore also what you're saying, biologically exploring, is as parents, we take it very personally. And we, we then have our own defense mechanisms.

   2. MRMatt Richtel9:26

      Amen.

   3. BEDr. Becky9:26

      We pull away, and this is g- this, whenever I say this, it makes me very sad, okay? But like, instead of our kids being explorers, they become nomads. And the biggest difference between an explorer and a, and a nomad is whether you have a home base.

   4. MRMatt Richtel9:43

      Becky, are, are you a genius?

   5. BEDr. Becky9:45

      Oh. [laughs]

   6. MRMatt Richtel9:47

      [laughs] That is, that... Can I borrow the me- can I... Is there time to get the, the metaphor into the paperback?

   7. BEDr. Becky9:54

      [laughs]

   8. MRMatt Richtel9:55

      Look, you've said a mouthful. Um, can I break it down even further?

   9. BEDr. Becky10:01

      Please.

6. 10:01 – 13:07

   The power shift in the relay race: why “let go” triggers parents

   1. MRMatt Richtel10:01

      I just wanna m- really ground what you've said about a framework. Our framework has been fundamentally wrong. We have l- we have looked at young people as causing conflict as a form of rebellion, as a form of angst, as a form of anger. This is not accurate, and the reason it goes so squarely to your point is parents cannot take this personally. It is where the problems arise in that relationship. There are two reasons parents take this personally. The first is we are all ourselves insecure, and it's almost like our kids are a version of social media saying, "I hate you," [laughs] and it's hard not to take that personally. But there's another reason which is really vital. Adolescence is the proverbial handoff moment in life's relay race. We are handing off some control and power to the next generation, and that is freaking scary. It even reminds us of our own mortality. So not only are we feeling personally slighted, we are sensing a power shift. We, I cannot say strongly enough, Becky, that we cannot take this personally, and I do get into this in the book. I, I have a bit of a glo- glib phrase, which is, "Love, lead, and let go," but the let go part is essential. You cannot conflate yourself with your children.

   2. BEDr. Becky11:36

      Well, and I guess in this, like, visual, 'cause I find the visual helpful, my kid's in my house, then they need to be an explorer, but they do need this home base to return to. And again, the time your adolescents wanna return to your home base, let me just be clear, is, is only the inconvenient moments. You're like, "I have been inviting my kid into my freaking house all day and I am exhausted," and they come into my room at 11:30 and they wake me up, and they're kind of like, "I'm home," and you're like, "I'm sleeping," you know? And so, and it's true. They, they do. They come, they're explorers, and they're kind of like always on the night shift, and they, they wanna come home when you wanna come home. But if we don't take it personally, it doesn't mean we have to stay up with them for an hour when we have a big meeting the next day, but your reaction is, is very different, right? And so I think though, and this, uh, this goes so far in terms of not just adolescence, but how we prepare ourselves and our kids for this period- Is when our kids are in our house, right, which they, they are, right? But like that, that time, those early years, to the degree we are getting our self-worth as a parent from our kids being a mirrored version of us or from the way they tell us all the secrets of their friends or from the way we plan all their play dates and make sure they're in the right classes, if we are getting our self-worth not from things unrelated to our kids or even not from the way we are preparing our kids to be successful adults, but from the way they kind of attach to us so intensely, adolescence is going to feel very injurious.

7. 13:07 – 15:42

   Las Vegas parenting: experimentation is expected, but some boundaries are non-negotiable

   1. MRMatt Richtel13:07

      The, the challenges that get presented when we, when our self-esteem is taken from our kids and what it, what it winds up doing later on is it not only confuses us with them, but it makes it hard to set boundaries. And, and the reason I emphasize bound... L- I- I'd like to come back. I'd like- I mentioned, I alluded to Las Vegas, and I'd like to mention that earlier I mentioned that the, the adolescent brain becomes hyper attuned to the environment around it. I think of it as like a kid just stepped into Las Vegas, and there's bells and whistles and temptations. And as a parent, you're saying to them, "I already told you, this place is entirely fake. Here's the good restaurants. [laughs] Here's the places you should go. Here's the places you shouldn't go." But they cannot take your word for it in that moment. So once you understand that framework, let's just start with the most basic thing. You don't take it personally when they walk into the casino or the back alley because they're not doing it to tell you to go screw yourself or they're not listening to you. They're doing it because they fundamentally need to understand the environment on their own terms. So that's one thing I'd say. But the other thing I'd say, and this goes to boundaries, if they're in this environment, there are some places and spaces that we don't want them to explore, but they will survive, and there are some places and spaces that may kill them. And we are, this is where we're duty-bound to set clear boundaries, even if it means they scream, "I hate you. You don't understand me," because they can only survive if they get past the worst stuff. What do I mean? There are areas around addiction, around drinking and driving, around certain criminal behavior that you may not bounce back from. You could say to yourself as a parent, "Well, I lump those all together with missing a day of school or, um, you know, staying out past curfew," but they are not the same things. And as a parent, I would really urge you to set the boundaries around the important stuff and not care if your kid gets upset because that's your job.

8. 15:42 – 18:42

   How boundaries actually work: building the muscle early + redefining a boundary

   1. BEDr. Becky15:42

      So a couple things about that. Boundaries are my, my love language, right? And I think, again, like, a- and I know we haven't even gotten into it yet. I'm sure we will at some point. Everyone's like, "Well, how do I make sure my kid... I don't want my kid to get a phone until this age," and all this stuff. And I always say, "You know, look, boundaries are a muscle." The idea that you're gonna set your very first boundary and tolerate your kid being upset with you when they ask a phone, that, that's a joke. That's like asking a basketball player to miss a free th- to, to make a free throw when game seven is on the line when they've never made one in practice. [laughs] Like, that's not happening. So boundaries are a part of your relationship with your kid. In my mind, they need to be built into the fabric. Which is, I, I probably have a different version. It's my job is to set boundaries and care about your feelings. By the way, the caring about your feelings does not mean those feelings dictate your decisions. That's the duality we've lost, is the ability when our kids are young to start that with, "TV time is over. It is your bedtime. You're not having a sleepover. No, you can't have ice cream for breakfast. And ugh, I know, you wish you could. It would be so yummy. No, sweetie, I am blocking you from going to the freezer 'cause that's just not an option." Like, it's warm. It's firm. And so you're building that into the fabric of your relationship so that by the time you do say, "This is actually a limit," even as you're getting older, your kid's body is kind of like, "I am accustomed to this. Like, this is not the first time [laughs] my parent has done this."

   2. MRMatt Richtel17:03

      And Becky, can I reinforce, can I reinforce wh- why that's so in the child's interest?

   3. BEDr. Becky17:09

      Yep.

   4. MRMatt Richtel17:09

      The world is challenging and difficult. If you actually wanna help your kids survive, you don't mimic an environment where they're entitled to everything. [laughs] No one calls you and says, "Becky, hey, how would you like to have one of the top podcasts in the world? All you have to do is show up and smile." It doesn't work like that. You gotta work your tail off. "Hey, Matt, how would you like a job at The New York Times?" That doesn't happen. So when we say, "Don't go to the freezer. These are the rules. When you break the rules, this is what happens," it's much more consistent with the world around them.

   5. BEDr. Becky17:46

      But I'm gonna, I'm gonna just jump in here because I think it really matters, because my version is different. And I actually, I'll say this too, because I think boundaries are very misunderstood, and I think people think they're setting a boundary when they say to their kid, "Don't go to the freezer," or, "It's not iPad time." I would say those are requests. A boundary is what you tell your kid you will do, and it would require your kid to do nothing. Any time you're requiring your kid to do something for you to be successful, not only are you not setting a boundary, you're literally giving your power away to your two-year-old or to your 14-year-old. So a boundary would be saying, "I'm not letting you go to the freezer, and you're gonna be there." And if you're saying, "But my three-year-old is gonna go there when I'm not there," I'm like, "Yeah, because they're three, so they would do that. So you have to, you have to figure this out," right? Like, "I'm not gonna let you even see your iPad if it's not your iPad time." How many of us are successful at not taking our phone when it's visible, right?

   6. MRMatt Richtel18:34

      I, I like how you just set a boundary with me

   7. BEDr. Becky18:36

      [laughs] But, okay, but this-

   8. MRMatt Richtel18:39

      I think you might have

   9. BEDr. Becky18:41

      I think I might have. But this is actually-

   10. MRMatt Richtel18:42

       [laughs]

9. 18:42 – 20:43

   A cutting story that reveals what teens need: containment, not decision-by-teen

   1. BEDr. Becky18:42

      ... a good back and forth because it's so interesting. We're a good pair. You have a lot of research and, and, and biology in the way that's, you know, I'm aware of and not the thing I look into. But a story comes to mind that to me really, really shows why kids need boundaries, okay? And I, and I think it's right in line. So right, I, I'm in private practice. I'm seeing this, like, 16-year-old who's the snarkiest, the snarkiest human being I've ever met, and I, and I love it. I love a good challenge, you know? 'Cause under snarkiness is always pain that's just waiting to be seen. And she came to me after she was cutting for years. She was cutting her wrists, right? She was cutting, um, you know, and she was really struggling. And I remember the very first session. I was like, "Okay, how long have you been cutting?" She goes, "Two years." And like that, "Two years," like such attitude. And I was like, "Oh, well, you told me this is the first time you've seen a therapist." And she's like, "It is. My parents made me come," you know, or something like that. And I go, "Well, have your parents known about the cutting?" And she's like, "They have." And I was like, "Well, why, why have you not seen a therapist in two years?" And, and Matt, this is, I'll never forget. She goes, "Well, my parents tried two years ago, and they, and they said, you know, 'We're gonna have to see a therapist. We're worried about you.'" And I said, "Oh, so you're saying," okay, earmuffs anyone here, "you're saying I'm fucked up? You're saying I'm fucked up, and I'm the only one who has to go to therapy? You know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna go, and I'm gonna lie, and I'm just gonna make up stories and waste all of your money. You can't make me, okay?" Uh, whenever I tell this story, my heart races. Okay, and then I somehow in my good therapeutic moment just knew to shut the F up. "Becky, do not say anything." I just... And her entire body language changed. She looked to the ground like a five-year-old, and when she looked up at me, literally what she said was, "Can you believe they let me make that decision?"

   2. MRMatt Richtel20:30

      Can I, can I, um, reinforce... You mentioned our partnership where you actually do the things and I read the books. Um, can I reinforce what you've just said with some research?

   3. BEDr. Becky20:42

      Yes, please.

10. 20:43 – 23:18

    “Do nothing” as a high-skill move: letting the emotional wave pass before reasoning

    1. MRMatt Richtel20:43

       So there's a lot of talk today about a mental health crisis, and we can quibble over the questions. There's no doubt kids get o- young people get overwhelmed. I mentioned this Las Vegas environment that they're in. What is so vital about what you said based on the research I've looked at is that there are times, many of them, when what we need to help an adolescent do is move past a period of information overload or emotional overload. And what ha- what... You, you're telling that story for one purpose, but I hear something else in it also. I hear that you let that young person burst that emotional bubble. And, and what, what the research shows about therapy, DBT, CBT, and there's some other things I'll mention in a moment, is that helping young people get through an intense emotional moment before you try to engage them in the substance-

    2. BEDr. Becky21:48

       Yes

    3. MRMatt Richtel21:48

       ... will let them in effect reboot their brains. So [laughs] I, I can... The, the listener can't see, but I can see you, and it looks like you're agreeing.

    4. BEDr. Becky22:00

       Y- yes. I mean, I, I, I just, it really, you know, I think the most underutilized parenting strategy in the world is, and these are with capitals, doing nothing. Doing nothing on the outside, where everyone would say, "You're just gonna let your teen talk to you like that? You're gonna do nothing?" And what I would actually say to them if I was in a snarky mood is, "It looks like I'm doing nothing. It's 'cause I'm doing everything on the inside and managing my emotions. When I vomit my frustration and say, 'You can't talk to me,' that looks like I'm doing something. I am literally a child on the inside doing nothing." But letting your kid finish it out, just holding it, letting them finish it out so they don't have to keep seeking more ways to finish it out, trusting, having time, being there, and then having a moment for... And something usually shifts even before you have to do something. [laughs]

    5. MRMatt Richtel22:48

       When, when they are ready because when they're inflamed that way, "D- everyone in eighth grade hates me. You make that food every night. I ha- I despise you. Uh, I wanna go to the circus," or, you know, to be extreme, uh, "I, I don't know if I wanna be alive," a lot of those are happening in such a heightened emotional state, such an inflamed state, that trying to either reason or be angry only intensifies that state. And I, I might add one more bit of biology

11. 23:18 – 24:50

    Earlier puberty + slower executive function: the neurological mismatch behind big feelings

    1. MRMatt Richtel23:18

       here that, that is important. Um, the age of puberty in, in the year 1900 started at, uh, at 14 for girls, and now it's down to 12. And we can talk about why that is, but, uh, just setting it, w- the why aside for a second, boys are roughly along the same lines. It's hard to tell with boys 'cause they don't have a menstruation, which is a, um, the, you know, a, a demarcation point, but why is that important? It's important because those horm- those adolescent hormones, the sensitivity is starting earlier. It's starting earlier at a time there's a lot of fast information moving in the world. Remember, we talk about integrating the old and the new. The new is coming furiously quickly. So that can lead to these kind of heavy emotional experiences earlier and more often, but they don't mean your kid's any crazier, if you will, or that everyone in eighth grade hates them. It's just moving into Las Vegas even earlier than your ID says.

    2. BEDr. Becky24:22

       Uh, uh, and, and I know, I know, right, that puberty's happening earlier, but your prefrontal cortex is not developing earlier, right? [laughs]

    3. MRMatt Richtel24:30

       100% right. It, what... It's what causes the, the scientists in this field to speak of a neurological mismatch between what you're taking in And what you're able to process, hence these big emotional outbursts. But then we come in and say, "Don't talk to me that way," and the emotions go through the roof even more.

12. 24:50 – 30:21

    Repair prevents “anchorless” teens: returning after you mess up is the job

    1. BEDr. Becky24:50

       A- and I think the "don't talk to me that way" is a version. And again, we're not, we all say that. And I, I always like to say, anyone listening, you know, I always say at Good Inside we're, we're experts in imperfect parenting. That's what we're expert in. Everyone says, I say, "Don't talk to me that way. I can't talk to you right now." W- whatever it is. We all say that, and then we repair. That's the best it gets in a lot of moments. But when you repair and go back, "I wish I didn't say that. I wanna hear the end of your story. Something important was happening," this is what brings me back to, like, you are not leaving your kid as a nomad. Because if they are a nomad navigating this time truly without a base to come home to, that is when they get anchorless. That is an anchorless experience. And when you come back, y- y- by the way, you're not gonna get it right the first time, 'cause unless you're a parent who's listening to this and says, "You know what? Whenever I said to my parent, 'I hate you. You're the worst. I hate you,' they were so calm and grounded." Like, which probably everyone listening is like, "Yeah, that's, like, totally not what happened in my childhood." Then of course it's not gonna come naturally. Like, what comes naturally in parenting is how you were parented. So often the best it gets is returning, and when you return to your teen, "I'm sorry I reacted that way. There was something important. Let's figure it out," you are kind of saying, "I am still that base. You can still explore, but, like, you are not alone."

    2. MRMatt Richtel26:02

       If, if I play this out, Becky, over the years, the reason I named this book How We Grow Up is I don't think the things we're talking about are expressly limited to adolescence. I think this is, this is what I see happening broadly in society, is that we're at a time where there is a ton of information and things are changing quickly. Each of us come across moments where we become overwhelmed and emotive, and we're learning to cope with a very challenging environment. The things you're describing here, Becky, are like the lifeblood of being able to do it later. And the phrase I've come up with for this is, "I'd rather have a teen life crisis than a midlife crisis." Get the coping mechanisms down now, and then you can have those other 30 years to be happy, rather than buying a Porsche and a mistress, or mister, when you're in your 50s.

    3. BEDr. Becky27:01

       Uh, yeah. And, and look, the version of that, that, that I think, you know, in my language I would say is, like, when my, my kids right there- there's 18 years about that they'll be in my house, right? And then, I mean, hopefully then they're out. But, like, let's say we have those 18 years, and in a way, though, like, our kids are out of our house way longer than they're in our house, and the stakes only get higher. Every year the stakes get higher. Like, my kid freaks out and, I don't know, even, like, let's say they cheat on a test, they plagiarize a paper at age 13. I promise you the version of that that manifests at 30 is way more intense, okay? So whatever the issue is, my kid hits, my kid says, "I hate you," like, I really invite parents, and, and I think you need this phrase to be able to hold it, I really do give myself a sense of sick joy when I have moments like this with my kids. I really do, okay? Because the sick joy is like, if I'm driven by impact and not instant gratification, which is hard in this day and age, but if I am driven by impact, what my kid is saying is, "You have the opportunity to help me wire some circuitry for how to be resilient through this moment." Because it's true. I'm freaking out at age 13 that I wasn't invited to this person's sweet 16, okay? And I say to myself, "Who cares it's a sweet 16?" The sweet 16 situation will change, but that is the exact same thing as not finding a roommate in college, not being invited to the moms coffee after drop-off. It's the feeling of being left out and feeling less than and not knowing how to cope with it. Our feelings never change. And so when they come out in these huge waves, if you have a voice in your head that says, "Wait, I'm not doing something wrong. This happens to be inconvenient and hard, and it happens to be a moment where I could have massive impact," you do have, like, this almost kind of sick joy to help you reframe that moment.

    4. MRMatt Richtel28:58

       Can I ask you, Becky, when did you, when did it dawn on you in your own life that these are versions of the same thing? Was it through training, or did you personally experience a kind of epiphany or revelation about the nature of emotion?

    5. BEDr. Becky29:15

       Really good question. Um, I mean, I think maybe part of it, and one of the privileges I've really become acutely aware of from my childhood that I never knew was a privilege, is I did have a mom... I almost am, like, ashamed to admit it, right? We all have shame. I had a mom who, like, me and my friends would sit around our kitchen table with my mom a lot, and she was so non-judgmental because she's just, like, this deeply curious person, and we would talk about things. And, like, I remember in these moments, like, oh, like... And she'd help me probably connect the dots. Like, this is, like, m- my perfectionism and how it came out, trying to be the best in my teen years, that, that's the same as when I, you know, had a hard time, you know, not making the soccer team in third grade. Like, they're all versions of the same thing, and I think it's a training to realize that the themes in our life have nothing to do with on the surface and everything to do with the feeling. And there's actually not that many feelings we have. They're all, like, you know, they're a- they're very similar. [laughs]

13. 30:21 – 43:49

    Curiosity over judgment + coping over rumination: what to build for lifelong resilience

    1. MRMatt Richtel30:21

       Becky, may I interrupt and seize on a word you said? That, um, I- I've, I've circled two words for myself in my notes about things I'd urge parents broadly to encourage in their kids, and one of them is curiosity. And the reason I mention curiosity in the nature of your mo- in the, in the story with your mom, or more broadly, is- To the extent we approach things as curious, they become less threatening on their face, and our emotions don't explode to the point where we're then anxious or uncomfortable. And I think one of the challenges that parents face, and our culture faces, is that we are very tempted to know the answer, to wanna know the answers to everything, or feel like we have to. Um, you can see this running through the media environment, the political environment. But in point of fact is, during this period when your brain is open and plastic through adolescence, you are going to lay down certain habits. To the extent as a parent you can teach curiosity, you will make someone adaptable, flexible, able, and less emo- and more emotionally resilient. The other word I just wanna say I circled here... Or should I leave that aside and we talk about curiosity for a second?

    2. BEDr. Becky31:49

       Well, to me, c- let- let's start with curiosity. To me, curiosity and judgment are opposites. They're inherently oppositional, right? And our brain, when we see behavior, whether it's I hate you, whether it's hitting in a kid, whether it's a kid lying to your face, even though they say, "I didn't take money," and you're like, "I literally have a camera in my bedroom, and I see you taking the money from me to go to that concert," whatever it is. Curiosity is really hard, because our brain likes to see something that's behavior which is visible, and it short-circuits, and it tells us we know everything about the person. And then instead of having a gap between who someone is and what someone did, we actually have no gap. And so we respond to the person like they just are that behavior, and curiosity is the thing that breaks it down. Because what you said is curiosity, and I think this is what resilience is, it's our ability to not fully know. "Oh, well, I wonder what was going on. I wonder..." And people often say to me, "Oh, so it's okay they stole the money?" W- how did we get from curiosity to approval? Tho- those are completely different things.

    3. MRMatt Richtel32:50

       And I would, I would... I love that, the way you framed that, and I... It made me think of this phrase: Judgment is a sprint, curiosity's a marathon.

    4. BEDr. Becky32:57

       Oh, love that.

    5. MRMatt Richtel32:58

       And if you want [laughs] if you wanna get in-

    6. BEDr. Becky33:02

       Love it.

    7. MRMatt Richtel33:02

       [laughs]

    8. BEDr. Becky33:03

       Love it. Matt, you're on fire. [laughs]

    9. MRMatt Richtel33:07

       If you... It's a, it's a, it's a tandem. It's a duo.

    10. BEDr. Becky33:10

        It's good, yeah.

    11. MRMatt Richtel33:11

        I'm d- I wanna do, I want us to do, like, jazz hands and dance. Th- the... If you wanna get in shape, if you really want to be fit, you need the marathon mentality. And people... Th- there's a way in which judgment versus re- curiosity is fundamentally a resource question. It's an easier resource to just come up with a judgment, but the problem is you will then spend your life spending those resources with no positive return.

    12. BEDr. Becky33:46

        Yep.

    13. MRMatt Richtel33:46

        When you do the marathon, when you invest the resource in trying to understand what's going on, you get a major feedback loop later on.

    14. BEDr. Becky33:56

        A- a- and just for everyone listening, and I think this is, like, really poignant. A lot of the reasons we jump to conclusions and judge our kids in their worst moments is a resource thing. But a lot of it is because, if we're honest with ourselves, in our worst moments when we were kids, we were met with instant judgment. Like, so your body wired something bad on the surface next to, "I know everything I need to know about this person." Bad thing equals bad person. And then of course we have fear, and we're treating the other person like the enemy. And so I think there's a moment right now just for everyone even listening to pause, because there can be so much judgment. "I do that with my kid. Oh, no, I'm messing up my kid." Just pause for a sec. Compassion is not dangerous. And just say to yourself, like, "I bet there's a lot of moments when I could've used a lot more curiosity instead of judgment. Like, that would've been something that felt so good to me. And if I even do that one moment out of 100 for my kid and repair the times I didn't, like, I, I'm, I'm literally doing something probably no one's ever done in my lineage." Like, literally I'm starting a new pattern. [laughs] Wait, tell me about the other word. I know we're gonna be ending soon. What's the other word you circled? Let's jump into that, and then we'll pause for now.

    15. MRMatt Richtel35:09

        The other, the other word I wanna say is coping mechanisms or calm.

    16. BEDr. Becky35:12

        Yeah.

    17. MRMatt Richtel35:12

        And I, I, I, I think if there's, if there's two things we could get our adolescents, our, our young people through adolescence with, it's curiosity, and then a sense that the thing... To, to apply that curiosity along with compassion to the way they process their emotions. And the, the... Sometimes I think of this generation, but I could argue this of prior generations. I, I think of adolescents a little bit as generation rumination. It's easy to channel a, an intense emotion into, um, a very specific thing. "Everyone in eighth grade hates me." Um, "Everything would be all right if just X or Y." But in point of fact, what those represent, just like you mentioned earlier how things in your life were part of the same or a piece of the same thing, in a lot of ways, those ruminations, that intensity, is an outgrowth of a really, uh, overwhelming emotional period. And to the extent that we can teach our young people how to work through those emotional periods without having the conversation with themselves, "Does everyone in eighth grade help, uh, hate me?" So earlier we talked about this idea that you wouldn't have the conversation, "Does everyone in eighth grade hate me?" until they were over the emotional hump. Similarly, could we teach young people to get over the emotional hump and then have the conversation with themselves? "Oh, wait, I'm not in a heightened emotional state. I don't actually believe everyone in eighth grade hates me." Can I give you a crazy personal example? From yesterday?

    18. BEDr. Becky36:55

        Sure.

    19. MRMatt Richtel36:56

        I was coming on this podcast this morning, and I am aware that that makes me a little bit nervous and anxious. I've thought about this stuff forever, but nonetheless, I know myself well enough that there's some performance here and some challenge here, and I got mad at our electrician yesterday.

    20. BEDr. Becky37:14

        Yep.

    21. MRMatt Richtel37:15

        And [laughs] I was walking with my wife afterwards, and I was like, "I'm not actually mad at Ben remotely. I love Ben. I know that tomorrow morning I'm gonna get up and get on with Becky, and I really wanna honor this work I've done and her show and not make a fool of myself." And so last night, I got into bed, and my wife came into bed, and I'd already understood this mechanism was at work. And she's like, "Hey, can we do this on Sunday?" And I found myself getting mad, and I said, "I love you, Meredith. I cannot process that information right now. This is something I've just gotta go through and cope with, and after, like, roughly around noon Eastern tomorrow, we can talk about whatever you want." And she was like, "I feel you."

    22. BEDr. Becky38:04

        Yeah. And, and look, I think that example, first of all, thank you for sharing that. And again, I think sometimes the best it gets is realizing after. That is, like, "Wait, I think I took that out on my electrician. That's probably a me thing." And again, it's just being curious. I wonder what was going on for me.

    23. MRMatt Richtel38:21

        To be clear, I did not actually get mad at the electrician. I felt some frustration. I really do. Ben, I'm sorry.

    24. BEDr. Becky38:28

        We all love Ben.

    25. MRMatt Richtel38:29

        [laughs]

    26. BEDr. Becky38:29

        Ben seems, Ben seems wonderful.

    27. MRMatt Richtel38:31

        Good dude.

    28. BEDr. Becky38:32

        And need his name, um, and number. Um, but, but I think that that's exa- that's exactly right. And just the thing I think we underestimate when we talk about coping, and we're gonna ... I know this could be its own, this is i- in some ways, its own episode. I feel like actually this is the Good Inside platform, so it's, it's not even safe to say it's an episode. There is no better coping strategy you can teach your kid than your ability to tolerate the things they can't tolerate. Kids learn emotion regulation. You can teach your kid breathing skills, and if we can't be with our kids in their hard times, it won't land. They learn that through we are relational beings. Now, that can feel like a lot of pressure. I think about that as what an amazing opportunity. Wait, I also struggle when there's uncertainty. I can build my own coping skills. That can help me as an adult while it helps my kid, and knowing I'm never gonna be perfect, and I always have repair in my back pocket. Like, that's a lot of bang for your buck in my mind.

    29. MRMatt Richtel39:30

        I would also put it another way. I tend to think of adolescents as startups, and we are people who have been through, we've gone public.

    30. BEDr. Becky39:40

        Yeah. [laughs]

Episode duration: 43:49