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Let’s Talk Bullying With Dr. Sheryl Ziegler

Few things feel more triggering than hearing that your kid is being teased or left out. If your first instinct is to “fix” the situation - text the teacher, call a parent, march up to school - you’re not alone. But as Dr. Becky and Dr. Sheryl Ziegler explain, our own wounds can make us miss what our kids need most. This episode unpacks why bullying feels so personal - and how to reset before you react. Get the Good Inside App by Dr. Becky: https://bit.ly/4fSxbzk Your Good Inside membership might be eligible for HSA/FSA reimbursement! To learn more about how to get your membership reimbursed, check out the link here: https://www.goodinside.com/fsa-hsa-eligibility/ Follow Dr. Becky on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drbeckyatgoodinside Sign up for our weekly email, Good Insider: https://www.goodinside.com/newsletter For a full transcript of the episode, go to [ goodinside.com/podcast. Thank you to our sponsor Mommy’s Bliss. Find Mommy’s Bliss in-store and online at major retailers. Your future self will thank you. Thank you to our sponsor Skylight. Head to Skylight.com/BECKY for $30 off their 15-inch calendars. This offer expires December 31st of this year. Thank you to our sponsor Hot Wheels. Check out our full series with Hot Wheels at hotwheels.com/challengeaccepted Thank you to our sponsor Zelle. When it counts, send money with Zelle. At Good Inside, we’re shifting the narrative - away from instinct and toward education - because parenting isn’t something that just comes naturally. And the first step to real, cycle-breaking change? Understanding yourself—and the patterns you fall into. I’ve said it before: every parent has a pattern. But have you ever stopped to ask… what’s yours? Take the free quiz at goodinside.com/better to discover your parenting pattern. Good Inside Members! I wanted to let you know that Sheryl will be LIVE in the good inside community on Monday, Nov 3rd. RSVP now to save your spot. Not yet a Good Inside member? Learn more at goodinside.com

Dr. Sheryl Zieglerguest
Oct 21, 202537mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:07

    Bullying vs. mean kid behavior: why the distinction matters

    1. BE

      Bullying. I mean this, just saying that word makes my whole stomach drop, and it also makes me have this entire replay of my childhood and every single situation [laughs] when I felt left out and just didn't have that connected belonging feeling I was looking for. And at the same time, we know feeling left out is a part of childhood. So what do we do when our kid's left out? What do we do when our kid has other kids who are mean to them? And is there a difference between kids that are mean, feeling left out, and bullying? And do we do different things in different scenarios? This is such an important conversation, and I am so excited to have Dr. Sheryl Ziegler back on the podcast to explore all of these issues together. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this. So I wanna talk about bullying. This is a hot topic. I get asked about it all the time. I know you do, too. And there's so many different areas around it I want to explore, but maybe we could just riff a little. When you hear the word bullying, let's go, like, scenario scenario. What- what kind of situations come to mind that are kind of under that umbrella?

    2. SZ

      Yeah.

    3. BE

      What do you hear about?

    4. SZ

      Well, when someone asks me about it, the first thing I ask is, let's figure out if this is bullying or mean kid behavior.

    5. BE

      Hmm.

    6. SZ

      'Cause that's a big difference, and I think kids overuse the word bullying, too.

    7. BE

      Yes.

    8. SZ

      And to me, the word bullying is so serious that I wanna make sure we're on the same page. So what I'm looking for is, is it repetitive? Was it one time somebody was mean to you? Are they doing this often?

    9. BE

      Hmm.

    10. SZ

      The big thing is, is it... Are they doing the mean thing because they want to feel powerful over you? They wanna have power over you, they wanna make you feel smaller, they wanna be dominant over you. And is it intentional?

    11. BE

      Hmm.

    12. SZ

      Do you know for sure that they're doing this on purpose? Or did you not get invited to the sleepover because, you know, you're not that close, and they- they didn't think of you that way, or they only had two or three people over? So that's the first place I start, is-

    13. BE

      Yeah

    14. SZ

      ... I really wanna make sure we know what we're talking about-

    15. BE

      Hmm

    16. SZ

      ... because it's kinda two different paths.

  2. 2:07 – 3:17

    A quick scenario game: what counts as bullying vs. just “mean”?

    1. BE

      Okay, so then maybe we do this. We're gonna start with a little game. I'm gonna name scenarios, and you're gonna have incomplete information. So I know we both like nuance-

    2. SZ

      Mm-hmm

    3. BE

      ... but let's just play around.

    4. SZ

      Okay.

    5. BE

      And give me your instinct. Like, I think this is mean kid behavior, or this is bullying.

    6. SZ

      Yeah.

    7. BE

      Okay?

    8. SZ

      Let's do it.

    9. BE

      Okay. Um, my kid comes home and just said, "Ugh, they said I couldn't play four square with them today."

    10. SZ

      Mean.

    11. BE

      Mean. Okay. Um, someone was saying I'm a loser on the group chat.

    12. SZ

      I'd have to ask some follow-up questions. How often? Right? I'd have to know how often. It one time?

    13. BE

      One time.

    14. SZ

      Mean.

    15. BE

      Okay. Um, they don't want me to play soccer because I'm really not very good at soccer in an intense game of soccer.

    16. SZ

      Mean.

    17. BE

      Hmm. This one kid tends to pick me out every day at recess and tell me that I have no friends.

    18. SZ

      Probably bullying, or borderlining on bullying. And why? Because you said every day.

    19. BE

      Mm-hmm.

    20. SZ

      And intentionality picks me out.

    21. BE

      Hmm.

    22. SZ

      Right? So then the third aspect I would follow up on is, like, why do you think you?

    23. BE

      Hmm.

    24. SZ

      Why you, right? And that would be, like, the third piece that I'd need to know.

  3. 3:17 – 9:51

    Parents’ biggest obstacle: triggers and unresolved “old wounds”

    1. BE

      Interesting. So, a- and I do think I, uh, I'm hearing what you're saying, and I'll have parents come and say something to me like, "My kid is being bullied." And the reason I think the label matters is if the label... And I, I would probably say this is true of any label. If a label activates us and makes us as a parent kind of lose touch with a grounded, wise mind, that sturdy leader we all have, it's probably not that useful. Because whether your kid is having mean kid behavior or is being bullied, they- they probably need something from you.

    2. SZ

      Mm-hmm.

    3. BE

      Right? And so I think that's really important, which is, you know, noticing what comes up for you as a parent when your kid tells you, "I was left out," on one end of the spectrum one time, or, "Oh, a kid is targeting me every day at recess," on the other end of the spectrum. I actually think that's a really important starting point. So curious what you see, talking to parents. What... We're gonna get to the kid stuff, but what tends to come up for parents when they hear or see evidence of either their kid being left out, their kid having mean kid behavior, or their kid being kind of repeatedly targeted?

    4. SZ

      Old wounds.

    5. BE

      Say more.

    6. SZ

      Ugh. This is, this is one of those things that it doesn't matter where you grew up, how long ago that was, whatever your experience was. Most of us have stories from our childhood that they stay with us. We never forget. One time somebody said, "You know, you have chicken legs." You never forget it. 30 years later, you don't forget. Somebody said, "You know, your hair is, is stupid." You don't forget it. You don't forget even the mean things, right? And then we also, though, have... I mean, some numbers are, like, one in three people reporting feeling bullied.

    7. BE

      Hmm.

    8. SZ

      So that means you have a lot of parents walking around the world, probably this was not addressed. It could've been physical and verbal, and they just kinda had to deal with it. It-- If you watch movies, old movies, the kid being bullied is almost a rite of passage in childhood-

    9. BE

      Hmm

    10. SZ

      ... especially for boys. Although, interestingly, today, boys and girls are equally bullied.

    11. BE

      Mm-hmm.

    12. SZ

      But in the past, we have, right? We have movie after movie where sort of the schoolyard, bus stop, boys getting physically beat up-

    13. BE

      Yeah

    14. SZ

      ... and it's a rite of passage. It's kinda like get home, dust it off. Parents weren't very concerned. They said clean up and come sit down for dinner.

    15. BE

      Yeah.

    16. SZ

      And I think that was reflective of the times.

    17. BE

      Mm-hmm.

    18. SZ

      So then therefore, it's reflective of the stories we come into parenting with.

    19. BE

      A- and, and one thing I wanna double click on there that's really interesting is- I think about parents I've worked with when they come to me around, "Is my kid being bullied? My kid's being really left out," and some of the deeper themes we explore. And it really is so often one of the things you're describing, where we do end up getting into, "These kids picked on me on the bus. I was in, even though I was in fifth grade, and the fifth graders sit on the back of the bus, the fifth graders in the back of the bus always made me sit in the front of the bus, and I'd come home, and it was always like s- who cares? Moving on."

    20. SZ

      Mm-hmm.

    21. BE

      And one of these things I think that can happen is, and anyone listening right now, if you think back on your childhood, and you think about some version of, "I wasn't allowed to sit in the back of the bus," or, "These kids were mean to me," that pain is so real. Okay? Whether it's mean kid behavior or bullying, just for right now, that pain is so real and so intense, especially in a time of your life when peers mean so much. And if you grew up in a family that kind of pooh-pooh'd it, or was just like, "This is a rite of passage," I think something important to know is when you hear about your kid struggling with mean kid behavior, you might be triggered to react to your kid and almost kind of solve the problem so rapidly and quickly, maybe even in a more intense way than your kid felt it, in part because to some degree we're saying to our past, like, "I am also defending the fifth grader who wasn't allowed to sit in the back of the bus, and nobody heard me out, and nobody believed me." And I think those old wounds and triggers, where I know for me with my kids, there have been moments of, "Is this about my son? Is this about my daughter? I- is this something about what happened to me in fourth grade when my friends weren't nice to me in this situation?" And how much of what my kid needs am I able to see versus how much is that colored by something that almost has nothing to do with my kids?

    22. SZ

      A- absolutely.

    23. BE

      [laughs]

    24. SZ

      I mean, I sit across from people who will tell the story, and, and sometimes they do have that insight. And they'll say, "I have to tell you, I'm more fired up than ever about this particular story," you know, or, "This kid that continues to just harass my kid," and they'll get tears in their eyes. And I don't get tears in my eyes that often, but this one gets me too, because to see the, the adult, right, the 35-year-old mom, the 40-year-old dad, and I will tell you, dads get to tears just as quickly-

    25. BE

      Yeah

    26. SZ

      ... and see tears in their eyes, and I'm like, "I know right now in this moment, you are literally 10 years old."

    27. BE

      Yes. Yes.

    28. SZ

      You are 10 years old, and now you feel bigger, stronger, more confident, and you wanna come in and defend your kid. We wanna protect them from that pain that we felt that was unprocessed.

    29. BE

      The pain that was unprocessed and maybe was invalidated-

    30. SZ

      Absolutely

  4. 9:51 – 11:31

    Why middle school makes everything harder (and why kids may hide it)

    1. SZ

      Yes, and then throw on top of it that bullying peaks in middle school.

    2. BE

      Mm.

    3. SZ

      So, now you've got a 12, 13, 14 year old that is individuating from you.

    4. BE

      Yeah.

    5. SZ

      Right? So, first of all, is it safe to tell you this?

    6. BE

      Mm-hmm.

    7. SZ

      What are you gonna do if I tell you this thing? Second of all, is it okay for you to get involved?

    8. BE

      Mm.

    9. SZ

      Aren't I, like, a big boy, a big girl now? I'm supposed to do this on my own.

    10. BE

      Mm-hmm.

    11. SZ

      Why do I need you? And do you even know what you're talking about? Right? Like, and so it's actually peaking at a time where the kid is like, "Wait, I'm actually stepping away from you. You don't even know all my friends anymore. Maybe when I was in second grade, when someone was mean to me, you called their mom."

    12. BE

      Right.

    13. SZ

      We all-

    14. BE

      You may not even know who their mom is at this point.

    15. SZ

      Nope. You don't know who their parent is.

    16. BE

      So true.

    17. SZ

      Again, you don't know all their teachers. If they go, if they transition to a middle school, you don't know their, their world, really.

    18. BE

      Yeah.

    19. SZ

      I had a mom just say to me the other day, "I don't even know what the cafeteria looks like in my kid's school"

    20. BE

      Yeah

    21. SZ

      ... because he's a sixth grader.

    22. BE

      Yeah.

    23. SZ

      She's never been in it. So, these things are happening, peaking, actually, during a time where they are separating from you, and like you said, caring so much more about what their friends think. And so what do they do? Do they go to you? And then as the parent, how do you manage that? When do you take the break as a parent to say, "Hold on. Is this about me? What's my unresolved stuff?"

    24. BE

      Yep.

    25. SZ

      And so I think when parents do take the time, though, to do that, they feel emotions they n- they haven't felt in so long. They were living in there.

    26. BE

      Yeah.

    27. SZ

      They just didn't feel them.

    28. BE

      Yeah.

    29. SZ

      They bring them to that consciousness, and it can be really emotionally overwhelming.

  5. 11:31 – 12:57

    Hidden warning signs: stomachaches, untouched lunch, and school avoidance

    1. BE

      Yeah. Okay, so let's look at this whole arc. First of all, there's a situation where your kid comes home and tells you, "This is what someone said to me on the bus. No one played with me. This person's repeatedly targeting me." We can go through those, but what I wanna start with first is, how might you notice some of this stuff is going on in ways that aren't so obvious? 'Cause not every kid, especially at those ages, is so verbally direct.

    2. SZ

      Oh, yeah. I think some things, I mean, it's kind of by age, but I'll try to make it, like, middle-ish, like tween type of-

    3. BE

      Yeah

    4. SZ

      ... behavior, right? 'Cause younger kids are more likely to say, "So-and-so didn't sit with me today. So-and-so said I wasn't allowed at playgroup." These, like, the younger kids are more likely, and they don't know that they're reporting something. They're just telling you. But once they start to become a little bit more aware of social dynamics, you're gonna look for things like- The lunch comes back, it wasn't even touched.

    5. BE

      Mm.

    6. SZ

      Like, full lunch. Like, "Buddy, what's going on here? You didn't even touch your lunch today," right? There's a lot of reasons why that happens. They are saying they have a stomachache in the morning. They don't wanna go to school.

    7. BE

      Mm. Such a... And just, and double-click on that. What, what might that be a kid's body's way of saying?

    8. SZ

      Yeah, I ... It's, it's that fight, flight, or freeze. Like, I, it's scary there, it feels dangerous to me there, so I wanna f- I wanna flee from that.

    9. BE

      Yeah.

    10. SZ

      I don't wanna go there. And then it manifests in your stomach-

    11. BE

      That's right

    12. SZ

      ... or a headache.

  6. 12:57 – 18:40

    From “efficiency mode” to connection: responding to physical complaints differently

    1. BE

      And, and I know it's so easy to get into a cycle of, like, "You're fine." Like, "Oh, come on. You have a stomachache again?" And it almost can feel, when we're in, like, the rushing mindset of like, "I've just gotta get my kid out of the house, and I have so much to do," it can feel like your kid is trying to trick you or play you. And, and I think this is so important, feelings live in our body. And there's a lot of adults who when they're really nervous about going to a dentist, they don't say to their partner, "I'm feeling a little hesitant. I really am."

    2. SZ

      [laughs]

    3. BE

      No. They end up saying, "Oh, I had a lot of traffic. I missed it," or-

    4. SZ

      Bedtime

    5. BE

      ... right, they end up acting it out at work, right? Our body can act things out. So noticing your kid's kind of relatively chronic stomachaches before school is just so powerful for parents to know, "That could be my kid's way of communicating their feelings. That's not them lying to me."

    6. SZ

      Yes. And I, and I am with you. I think it's so hard for parents that are like, they'll call and they'll be like, "This is three mornings in a row now. They were fine the night before, and all of a sudden they wake up-

    7. BE

      Right

    8. SZ

      ... they've got this stomachache, conveniently five minutes before we're supposed to be heading out of the house."

    9. BE

      Right.

    10. SZ

      So they're angry. Now they're triggered, they're activated.

    11. BE

      That's right.

    12. SZ

      And like you said, like, we as adults wake up with a plan and a routine, right? We do this at 7:05, we're out the door at 7:15, whatever. So I really wanna emphasize, though, that when we look at bullying as-

    13. BE

      Yeah

    14. SZ

      ... is defined by bullying, one of the top two unintended consequences are poor academic functioning, increased abs- absenteeism.

    15. BE

      Mm-hmm.

    16. SZ

      So when I say that, you're gonna look for your kid's grades are going down.

    17. BE

      Mm.

    18. SZ

      They don't wanna do their homework, they don't care anymore about studying, and they're gonna start missing more school.

    19. BE

      And so if we think about the place of school as being a place that no longer feels safe, you think about it from that perspective, it makes sense that a kid would want to avoid engaging in that place or being at that place. And I think when you think about it that way, it, it's less likely to feel like an affront or like a trick. And if you think, "Okay, well, if there was a place I was supposed to go to every day and I actually didn't feel safe there," I would also come up with a lot of reasons to avoid it, because I felt like I was just trying to protect myself, right? And I think when we see it that way, we soften, like, "Oh, okay. Now I can enter into a different conversation with my kid."

    20. SZ

      Absolutely. And think about it even to add onto what you said, I don't feel safe there, but the people that are supposed to be in charge of loving me and keeping me safe, my parents, are telling me, "It's okay."

    21. BE

      "I have to go there."

    22. SZ

      "And you have to go."

    23. BE

      That's right. A- and the other thing I just wanna double-click on, because I was talking about this the other day and I think it resonated, when you're saying, "We have a plan. I gotta get out the door," I call that efficiency mode. Like, when I'm in efficiency mode, which by the way, can be rewarded in a lot of places in life, anything my kid does that's kind of off-script, I, I just see as inefficient, right?

    24. SZ

      Mm.

    25. BE

      And so any of us can miss signals in that mode. When you shift a little to, like, relationship or connection mode, your kid saying, "My stomach hurts every morning," becomes kind of a way you can pique your curiosity. Like, "Oh, I wonder, I wonder what that's trying to tell me. Oh, I wonder what's going on. Can I be curious about that?"

    26. SZ

      Mm-hmm.

    27. BE

      And then we're probably more likely to hear a longer story.

    28. SZ

      Yeah. You know, as you were saying that, I was, like, getting into my mind around who are the parents that actually do tolerate that pretty well? And you know who it is? It's the parents who go, "I remember going through a stage."

    29. BE

      Mm.

    30. SZ

      "I had a stomachache every day. I remember going through a stage where I didn't go to school for, like, a whole week."

  7. 18:40 – 21:07

    The digital megaphone: why online cruelty feels inescapable

    1. SZ

      And like what we just said, like, those places are still places today, and there's also online.

    2. BE

      Yes, right. There's just more of them.

    3. SZ

      There's more of them, and sometimes the online part is the part that you're like, "I can't escape it, but Mom, you don't understand. They're saying these terrible things in this group chat about me. They passed around this picture on Snapchat of me," or, "They put together, you know, some AI deep fake of me, and it's going around, and I can't escape it at school, and I can't escape it at home."

    4. BE

      You know, it- it makes me think that experiences of bullying or mean kid behavior, either way, um, none of it is new in 2025, but the way it has a megaphone now is completely new.

    5. SZ

      Mm-hmm.

    6. BE

      That's what it is.

    7. SZ

      Mm-hmm.

    8. BE

      It's like your worst, most embarrassing, ashamed, alone moment that did happen when you, quote, "Weren't allowed to sit in the back of the bus," now is passed around online for a million people even outside of your school to see. I mean, the megaphone impact of that, it would be like somebody getting on a speaker when you were left out and telling the whole world that this was happening to you on the bus. I mean, it's... It really is so visceral when you think about it that way.

    9. SZ

      It really is, and it's, it's the fastest growing place-

    10. BE

      Ugh

    11. SZ

      ... where this kind of bullying inte- you know, intimidation is kind of happening. And what happens is these kids used to be able to come home and, like-

    12. BE

      Ugh

    13. SZ

      ... again, I, for some reason, I picture-

    14. BE

      The speaker.

    15. SZ

      Yeah, like, I picture this old movie, right, where the kid's running away from the bullies, and then he gets in the house, and he slams the door. And it's like, "Ah."

    16. BE

      Mm.

    17. SZ

      And maybe mom or dad, who were in the living room or kitchen, not knowing was even somewhat of a relief. Like, "Oh, hi, honey. How was your day?" "Oh, it was good." And they just... And then he could turn it off or press pause for like 12 hours, and now they absolutely can't.

    18. BE

      So interesting, where even if you had a parent who knew about it and invalidated it, it wasn't happening live at the same time digitally.

    19. SZ

      Mm-hmm.

    20. BE

      It was kind of over.

    21. SZ

      Mm-hmm.

    22. BE

      The invalidation definitely didn't feel good, but it wasn't happening in parallel with the activation of your body in real time. It's like this forever bullying, being left out script that's happening now.

    23. SZ

      That's right.

  8. 21:07 – 23:21

    Group chats as modern exclusion: ‘being in’ vs. ‘being kicked out’

    1. BE

      Ugh.

    2. SZ

      And I, I wanna, like... I wanna bring this back. Let's, let's-

    3. BE

      Yeah

    4. SZ

      We'll take it to the mean kid part.

    5. BE

      Okay.

    6. SZ

      Okay? So now you've got some mean kid stuff-

    7. BE

      Right

    8. SZ

      ... and online, and this is what I want parents to understand. I remember, it was a couple years ago, I did this... I did a segment called, like, group chats are the new, like, mean kid circles to hang out in. So I want them to understand that let's say there's a night and nobody's saying anything mean to you, or y- or nothing's happening on a group chat. What that actually means is you've probably been kicked out. And so I want parents to understand that being in there is so repetitively demoralizing. You know, it's just, it- it's an awful feeling. But being kicked out is almost as bad or worse, 'cause now I don't even know what is being said and what's being planned, and now I'm out.

    9. BE

      Yeah.

    10. SZ

      Like, and I don't know who my friends are. I don't know who to trust.

    11. BE

      Is it like not, no longer having a seat at the table, at the lunch table?

    12. SZ

      Totally. Right. Just like you-

    13. BE

      Mm-hmm

    14. SZ

      ... someone takes their butt and slides you right off that little bench that you used to sit on, and it's like, "There's no room for you."

    15. BE

      Yeah.

    16. SZ

      "And you have to be way across the room, and you don't know what we're talking about. And we're laughing, and we're whispering. We're doing all sorts of things."

    17. BE

      And I think that's right, where if you think about it as a lunch table, you might not even love being at the table. You might not find the conversation terribly enticing, but I think we all know what happens when you're in a corner looking at the lunch table you were previously invited to sit at and watching them all talk to each other, and just again, how painful and real that is. But now it's digital, and you're just completely alone in the dark.

    18. SZ

      Completely.

    19. BE

      Right?

    20. SZ

      With, with what feels like no one in your corner, right? And, and to your point, the seat at the table, right, the seat at the metaphorical or literal table-

    21. BE

      Mm-hmm

    22. SZ

      ... it's like for a kid who's like, let's say in sixth grade, they're 12 years old, "Well, at least I got a seat." And to the outside world-

    23. BE

      Yeah

    24. SZ

      ... like, "I've got 10 kids I'm sitting with."

    25. BE

      Yeah.

    26. SZ

      "And, and, and I'm eating even if I don't say one word, but I'm monitoring what they're talking about."

    27. BE

      Yeah.

    28. SZ

      "I know that they're being mean, or they're not being mean, or they're talking about what they did over the weekend." And so you're at least one toe in, which for lots of kids feels so much better than you're out. You're out.

  9. 23:21 – 25:34

    The parenting middle path: not dismissing, not overprotecting

    1. BE

      So a couple things this makes me think about practically. I, I think it's so easy to hear this, and we all think as parents, like, "How do I protect my kids from these situations," right? And there's definitely things we can do over time that just help our kids build confidence, which in some ways is the most important thing to withstand tricky peer moments. But I think one of the things also that's realistic, I'm curious if you agree, is we can't fully protect our kids from experience. Like, they're, they're gonna happen. It's like turbulence on a plane. Like, you're never-

    2. SZ

      Mm-hmm

    3. BE

      ... gonna have a turbulence-free kind of flight.

    4. SZ

      Right. Right. And I think some... I think this is where I see a lot of deviation in how parents view it. Some are like, "Hey, you know, this is part of growing up. I went through it. They're gonna go through it." And so there's that. And then there's some who are like, "No."

    5. BE

      Mm.

    6. SZ

      "I need to protect my kid. They're sensitive," or, "They can't handle this the way maybe other kids can." And, and like you said, and then there's gray in the middle. So we also are parenting a generation of kids-

    7. BE

      Mm

    8. SZ

      ... pretty differently around this issue.

    9. BE

      Yeah.

    10. SZ

      And I think that is problematic because everything from the definition to when-

    11. BE

      Yeah

    12. SZ

      ... to get school involved, when not to, when to be involved, it really varies so much.

    13. BE

      A- and I guess my, my perspective on that is very similar to other extremes I see. I personally don't find either extreme helpful. "Look, my kid's gonna go through this. I went through this. I'm fine." I don't think that's helpful because the truth is, we probably needed something different than what we received in those moments. And again, because these moments have a megaphone now in the way they didn't, our kids have more needs. But the other end of the spectrum also doesn't feel that helpful. We can't fully protect our kids from these things. The best thing I think we can do is something in the middle, which is, how can I establish myself as a parent who's gonna know about these things, who can be supportive to my kid, who can really be a coach and a teammate to help my kid through these situations? And so, I guess one of my questions to you is, are there things we do proactively as a parent, forget just in the moment of mean kid behavior or bullying, that help us establish ourselves as the kind of parent our kid would come to in these situations?

  10. 25:34 – 28:59

    Proactive trust-building: use your own stories to open the door

    1. SZ

      I do. I think, I think one of the things that a parent can do proactively is to think to yourself, take 10 minutes out of your day, "What was middle school like for me? Who were my friends? Who was nice to me? Who was mean to me? Who was a special person in my life? Um, how did I deal with things?"

    2. BE

      Yeah.

    3. SZ

      Because, and I want you to, and I'm s- I'm specifically saying think of middle school because some of these things we're talking about are starting in third grade. So no matter how old your kid is-

    4. BE

      Mm-hmm

    5. SZ

      ... I still want you, 'cause probably, I know when I think back to third grade, I can think of times I'm sure my feelings were hurt, but the big stuff wasn't happening then. So I think, think back to that moment, and I've, and I've done this myself, which has been a really interesting process. And what was I going through? What was I thinking and feeling? What were my insecurities? All of those things. And then approach your kid, right, in a way that just says, um, you know, "I'm just, I'm here for you. There's some things that haven't changed probably since, you know, I was kind of your age." And yes, I know we say, oh, kids don't wanna hear that, but they actually do.

    6. BE

      Yeah.

    7. SZ

      They wanna know that we can relate.

    8. BE

      They do, and I, it just, it- it's making me think that saying to your kids, first of all, the starter sentence, "I have to tell you about something I was randomly thinking about. I wanna tell you something that just came up in my mind," just qualify it. It's so random, so your kid knows I'm just pontificating.

    9. SZ

      Mm-hmm.

    10. BE

      "I wanna tell you something I was randomly thinking about. There were so many times when I was probably right about your age that I felt so left out. Like, and those moments were so painful and so hard. And just putting out there, if any, like, thing like that has ever happened to you or does, you can totally talk to me about it." And, and just, I wanna hear your response, but the first thing I wanna say to qualify is if I say something like that to my own kid, I just want everyone to know, my kid will never say back to me in the moment, "I really needed to hear that. Thank you for laying the foundation for open communication." No. My kid will roll their eyes-

    11. SZ

      Mm-hmm

    12. BE

      ... and be like, "You're so weird."

    13. SZ

      Mm-hmm.

    14. BE

      And like, "Can you just get me pretzels? This conversation is over." Cringe. Okay.

    15. SZ

      [laughs]

    16. BE

      But we take our kids' reactions so literally.

    17. SZ

      Mm-hmm.

    18. BE

      I'm never put off by eye-rolling.

    19. SZ

      Mm-hmm.

    20. BE

      I, I don't know if I've said this to you, but I think eye-rolling is a kid's version of compromise, that rolling their eyes is a way of saying, "I actually think what you're saying is important, but I'm my own person. I'm not gonna fully take it in. I have to roll my eyes to kind of push it out. And when you turn it, turn around, I'm gonna" [laughs]

    21. SZ

      Take it.

    22. BE

      "I'm gonna take it in, but I'm not gonna let you know."

    23. SZ

      No.

    24. BE

      So every time I get an eye roll, it's funny. Parents are like, "Oh, how do you put up with that?" I'm like, "No, that is, like, a huge win in my book."

    25. SZ

      I agree with you.

    26. BE

      Mm.

    27. SZ

      An eye roll is like a concession.

    28. BE

      100%, a compromise, exactly.

    29. SZ

      Like, all right, I'll hear what you have to say. I'm not gonna tell you that it's anything meaningful to me.

    30. BE

      Right.

  11. 28:59 – 33:17

    In-the-moment response to mean kid moments: validate, pause, then plan later

    1. BE

      Leave it if you, if you want. And the chances are our kid's gonna pick it up. Okay, a couple other questions, 'cause look, mean kid behavior, bullying, let's just go over kind of each situation. I wanna get some feedback from you. So my kid comes home, and they say, "Nobody played with me at recess," and, "I tried to play with these kids at soccer, but they said, 'This is a serious soccer game. You're not good.'" W- what do you feel like a kid needs from a parent in that moment?

    2. SZ

      I mean, right then and there, just dropping into empathy, validation. Like, "Oh, buddy, I'm so sorry that happened. That must be really, really hard sitting there at recess, and they're not letting you play. Sorry that happened." And then pause.

    3. BE

      I, I wanna, I wanna emphasize that, 'cause it's similar to something I would say. Like, there's a less is more, and I think as a parent, we think it's not enough.

    4. SZ

      Mm-hmm.

    5. BE

      Like, do I have to, do I have... Okay, I'm gonna ask you. Do I have to call the school? What do you think?

    6. SZ

      No.

    7. BE

      No.

    8. SZ

      No.

    9. BE

      Right? Do I have to call all the parents- [laughs]

    10. SZ

      Nope

    11. BE

      ... of the kids?

    12. SZ

      Nope.

    13. BE

      A- and I think it's really helpful for people to hear that because we're all kind of just looking to feel like good parents, and if we feel like we're not reaching the standard, we're all gonna do more, right? But it is kind of. If I went home to my husband, and I was like, "Oh, I had this really bad day, and this meeting was bad. And honestly, these other people presented their work, and it was really good, and mine just wasn't," and like, if my husband's first reaction was like, "Well, I'm gonna call those people and..." Or, I'd be like-

    14. SZ

      Right

    15. BE

      ... "Whoa, like, where are you going? I'm just trying to share my experience [laughs] with you."

    16. SZ

      And it takes you out of your experience, too. Like, even the way you were just role-playing it, you're down. Like, "Oh, and then her presentation was better." And the second someone comes in to fix it, now you're gonna start defending. Now, all of a sudden, you're gonna start defend, "No, no, no. I mean, it's not that big of a deal."

    17. BE

      Exactly.

    18. SZ

      "I, I, I'm just telling you."

    19. BE

      Exactly.

    20. SZ

      Right? So never go there. Even if inside, though, you're like, again, everything lives in our body, so you can feel your heart palpitating.

    21. BE

      Yes.

    22. SZ

      I feel, I feel my heart, like- ... breaking sort of.

    23. BE

      Yes

    24. SZ

      Sometimes when my kids tell me things, and it's acting. I act calm, engaged, present.

    25. BE

      Yep.

    26. SZ

      I stop what I'm doing, right? I- I'm gonna reflect back what they said. I'm gonna validate it, and then, like, in the case of, like, it... Okay, so tomorrow there's gonna be recess again. Whether it's right now, right, 'cause I said pause. You have to pause. I always tell parents we over-talk when we're nervous, right? So just pause, see what they say, and then at some point, whether it's then or two hours or at bedtime, you say, "So you have recess again tomorrow, huh?"

    27. BE

      Mm.

    28. SZ

      "Yeah. I wonder if you've thought about, like, what are you gonna do?"

    29. BE

      Yeah. Love that.

    30. SZ

      Right? So I'm, I'm getting to a plan.

  12. 33:17 – 34:56

    When it’s real bullying: treat it as safety, involve the child in action

    1. BE

      So now, now quickly let's just cover the other one fast. My kid comes and says, you know, "I've... Like, this kid's always picking me at recess." Um, you know, it's kind of repeated. It's targeted. W- what do you feel like a kid needs in that situation, at least as a start?

    2. SZ

      So I think you still start off with that validation and all, and, you know, that space and time and empathy, for sure. And you say, um, "This is a safety issue, and I love you enough to be brave to know that we have to do something about it."

    3. BE

      Yep.

    4. SZ

      And then pause, because they're going to say, "No."

    5. BE

      Yep.

    6. SZ

      "No, no, no, no. No, don't call the school. You're only gonna make it worse." And honestly, a lot of times the way adults handle it can make it worse. So you say, so if you're listening right now, and you're like, "Well, how do I know if it's gonna make it worse or not?" Even if they're just giving you that look, you can say, "I, I know that you're probably really scared right now. You're wondering how this is gonna affect things at school, what's gonna happen to the group. I get it. Let's do this together."

    7. BE

      Yep.

    8. SZ

      "I promise I won't make a call, or I won't send an email or anything without talking about it with you. We're gonna do this together, but this is now a safety issue, and it's my job to keep you safe."

    9. BE

      I, I love that. And then you, like, could throw a menu of options. We could do, "L- let's start with something. Let's see how that goes. We'll check in. We're on the same team. There's going to be action, 'cause it's a safety issue, but that doesn't mean it has to be done totally with my kid on the side." We could include them in it.

    10. SZ

      I think so. I think, I always like to say, "What they know is a lot less scary than what they don't know."

    11. BE

      Yes.

    12. SZ

      "Oh, my God, I just told you that I'm, like, being bullied at school, and now I think you're gonna go crazy. You're gonna show up at school tomorrow."

    13. BE

      Yep.

    14. SZ

      That's really scary for a kid.

    15. BE

      Uh-huh. Yes.

    16. SZ

      Really scary.

  13. 34:56 – 37:07

    Role play + takeaway: a simple validation script is often enough

    1. BE

      All right, your kid comes home and says they were left out at recess. Let's role play how a conversation could go between you and your kid. I'm gonna be the kid, and Dr. Sheryl's gonna be the parent. I had the worst recess today.

    2. SZ

      Oh, no, what happened?

    3. BE

      Well, I wanted to play basketball. I went up to the group playing basketball, and they were just like, "You can't play with us. You're short."

    4. SZ

      Ugh, I'm so sorry, buddy. That must have been so hurtful.

    5. BE

      It was. Okay, pause. I know what you might be thinking. "Okay, and then what? Do I call the parent? Do I come up with a solution for my kid if they wanna play basketball tomorrow?" Actually, no. Just pause. At this moment, your kid might ask for a snack or walk away. The most important thing to do is what you've already done. Just essentially say you're able to hear it. You validate this was hard, and from there, just let your kid take the lead. They might not need anything more than that. Hope that was helpful, and honestly, whenever anyone's learning kind of a new language, seeing it acted out in a role play is something that always helps things crystallize. If you're a Good Inside member, please check out the other two role plays I'm going to drop right into membership. One is about when your kid is hanging out with a kid that is a bad influence, but they just won't stop hanging out with them, and the second one is what happens when you get a call that your kid was mean to another kid, and how to handle that conversation. All right, let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground and a hand on your heart. [upbeat music] And let's remind ourselves, even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I'll see you soon. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 37:08

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