Mom Rage with Anna Mathur

1. 0:00 – 0:00

   Intro

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy0:00

      [instrumental music]

2. 0:00 – 3:14

   Why “mom rage” matters—and why partners can engage in parenting work too

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy0:00

      Hi, I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. I'm a clinical psychologist and mom of three on a mission to rethink the way we raise our children. I love translating deep thoughts about parenting into practical, actionable strategies that you can use in your home right away. One of my core beliefs is that we are all doing the best we can with the resources we have available to us in that moment. So even as we struggle, and even as we are having a hard time on the outside, we remain good inside. Hi, Anna. I am so excited and honored for you to be on the podcast today, so welcome.

   2. AMAnna Mathur0:56

      Well, thank you so much. I am absolutely, it's such a privilege, and I am such... I've... Honestly, your, your work and resources have transformed my parenting, so this is a wonderful thing to be chatting with you today.

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:10

      Well, we can mutually fan girl, because I've been a fan of you for a really long time too, and I think I reached out to you on Instagram however long ago, feeling kind of sheepish. Um, and then, you know, we ended up connecting, and-

   4. AMAnna Mathur1:24

      We did

   5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:24

      ... I just always love talking with you.

   6. AMAnna Mathur1:27

      Do you know what? I think it was my husband that introduced me to you.

   7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:30

      Oh.

   8. AMAnna Mathur1:30

      He found one of your videos on Instagram, and he's like, "Wow, this lady is talking some powerful stuff." And yeah, that was, that was the beginning, so thank you.

   9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:40

      Well, that is very heartwarming. Uh, I feel like there's a way that that's gonna be related to what we're talking about, because I find so many of the women in heterosexual relationships that are in our community, and they often say, "How do I get my partner, how do I get my husband to watch a video or be engaged?" So how amazing for everyone to know also, like, it is possible, yeah, for a husband to take on that labor and say, "Hey, look what I found. You might be interested in this parenting-related video."

   10. AMAnna Mathur2:12

       Yeah. And I'm very glad. I'm very glad, and I, and I think that's it, isn't it? It's ideally having, being on the same page or at least kind of seeking those resources and that insight together means that you can implement it together. And yeah, it's been a bumpy journey, but we're, we're on it, and we're so grateful. Our kids are grateful. [laughs]

   11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy2:30

       Well, let me tell everyone the topic we will be talking about, because it is such an important one. It's something that you and I share as just a common area of interest, of importance, of helping parents understand what's going on, and it's the topic of mother rage-

   12. AMAnna Mathur2:47

       Yeah

   13. BKDr. Becky Kennedy2:47

       ... and irritability. And we can also, you know, kind of a little generalize that to parental rage. Um, and here, I think we're gonna be talking about maternal rage as related to kind of concepts around femininity and motherhood that have been given to us over the years. So let's just jump in. Like, what-

   14. AMAnna Mathur3:09

       Okay

   15. BKDr. Becky Kennedy3:09

       ... what is mom rage? What do you hear about it from other moms?

3. 3:14 – 8:05

   Defining mom rage through lived experience: the pandemic pressure-cooker

   1. AMAnna Mathur3:14

      So I'll, I'll share a bit of my own experience, because I think I've started hearing so much more of moms, like in my, in my community on social media, I've started hearing so many more of people's kind of behind-the-scenes experience since I've sh- started sharing mine. Because I think there is often so much kind of shame and self-judgment around rage and anger. So it's one of those things that we can feel really, it's hard to talk about it, it feels like it to be.

   2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy3:41

      Yeah.

   3. AMAnna Mathur3:41

      So when I started untangling it for myself with my psychotherapist head on, that's when I find that I can start removing that shame from my own experience, and then I can hopefully verbalize it and articulate it in a way that will help kind of chip away at that shame for other people so they can talk about it more openly. So I am quite a fiery person, I would say. I, I, I feel things quite big, mostly like my, uh, deeply feeling kid that I, that I have that, um, will hopefully not be so deeply feeling in the background as he's having his bath as we record. Um, so I've always felt emotions quite big, but I've learnt to really kind of, ooh, just contain them and, but not, not in a great way. Just kind of push them down. And I've, I've felt irritability with hormones, and kind of you know that, ooh, just, you know, things coming out sideways and trying to, trying to push that down as well for the sake of my relationship. And I kind of coped all right with that, to be honest. I didn't like it when I saw that rage or that frustration rise. However, the pandemic gave us so fewer opportunities to do the things that distill that anger.

   4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy4:48

      Mm.

   5. AMAnna Mathur4:48

      So for me, that, that rage, that feeling of, it's a mixture of overwhelmed, stress. It's lots of things. It's kind of really bubbling and physical and quite visceral. Um, but there were less opportunities to do those things that kind of really diffuse that for me. So for me, it was walking. Over here in England, we were allowed to walk once a day, and often I would walk with my kids, and they would start... Uh, someone would have a tantrum within feet of the house, and then we had to go back. And that was that done. So there was no walking. You know, there wasn't really seeing friends, having that community, those little chats that us mom have whilst kind of leaning against someone else's washing machine in their kitchen as the chaos is continuing. You know, there were less of those opportunities. Even the moments of space that you get when you walk around from the passenger seat of the car to the driver's seat of the car, and it's just that quiet. You know, there was none of those, those moments. And I started realizing that I was experiencing more of this, this kind of rage in a way that was so much more, again, visceral than I had experienced before. And there was this one moment, and I remember it so clearly. I was in the kitchen, and the three kids were there. It was just hard. We hadn't been out. And I, I messaged my husband, who was working upstairs, and I said, "You, you gotta come and swap out with me." Like, you have to, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna pop," I said, and he didn't read the message, 'cause he was on a conference call. 20 minutes later, I'm surprised I lasted that long, it just, I popped, and I roared like a lion. I screamed. I mean, I was almost bent double, because it was like this, this stuff, this, this noise just came out of me, and I can even feel it thinking about, like remembering that moment. And it was, it was uncontained and, you know, whoever in my house wasn't crying started crying. Like, my toddler had already been crying. She was on the floor. She cried harder. One of my kids came in from the other room wondering what the hell was going on. My husband [laughs] entered the room on the phone with the laptop in arms going, "Um, I, I, I'm really sorry. I'm gonna have to see you there." And, you know, it was, it was this moment that, that followed came the most, the biggest wave of guilt, the biggest wave of shame, and I thought, "I have to untangle what this is, because I am not going to be the only one roaring in my kitchen right now in life." So I started to think about it, and I started to realize that, you know, this, this anger, this rage in me was a very clear culmination of unmet need, chronically overlooked need due to circumstance or just purely because I found it hard to ask maybe sometimes, and un- unvalidated feelings that I hadn't been able to voice, that I hadn't, that I hadn't spoken about. And I think in talking about that then and once I'd kind of determined what I thought this was on social media, I started getting this huge kind of barrage of, of Me Toos. This is, wow, these are the moments I've been having. These are the, the feelings I have been having, and I have been shaming myself and feeling guilty, and then we just continue the cycle, and I w- I didn't want to be in that place.

4. 8:05 – 9:17

   Rage as a signal of unmet needs—not evidence of being a bad mom

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy8:05

      So I have so many different directions I'd, I'd love to explore with you, but I wanna actually go in none of them yet, 'cause I wanna come back to something you said. Rage as a symbol or a symptom or a sign of unmet needs.

   2. AMAnna Mathur8:24

      Mm.

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy8:24

      Not as a sign of badness, as a sign of there's something wrong with me, as a sign of what type of mom does that, do I not really love my kids, am I not fit to be a mom. Not... That's not what you said. You said rage as a symptom of unmet needs. Can you, can you unpack that term unmet needs a little bit?

   4. AMAnna Mathur8:46

      No, you know, yeah, and the badness is where I'd gone before, though, 'cause the badness is where I naturally jump to. So this is why I really had to unpack and unpick this, because I know that I am not bad. I know that I love my children. I know that I'm a good enough mum. And for me, those unmet needs were the overlooked opportunities for rest, or the opportunities that I saw but didn't feel deserving of, th- the lack of support and the support that was there that perhaps I found difficult

5. 9:17 – 13:21

   The “gap” between urge and action: how depletion collapses self-control

   1. AMAnna Mathur9:17

      to ask for. Because it's like a spiral, isn't it? You know, the more we push these things away or the more we overlook them or the more we can't grab hold of them, you know, it, it nudges our self-esteem down. It, it affects our confidence, and then we, you know, it's so easy just to spiral down, and there was, there were other little symptoms of this kind of rage and irritation, and it would be the, the gap between responding to my... Like, something happening, some challenging moment. Got a deeply feeling kid, you know, one of those moments where those, his emotions just, you know, feel really unregulated and all out there, and I'm that recipient. I am that, I am that absorber. I am that container. And I think the not having my needs met or not meeting them, not recognizing what they are, it, it lessens that gap between that trigger, that, that emotion from him, and how I respond. So I might then snap at him.

   2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy10:13

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AMAnna Mathur10:14

      Or I might say, "For goodness sake, Charlie, I haven't got time for this now," when actually what I really want to come out in those moments is this considered response. But we have to have energy for that.

   4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy10:26

      There's a couple things I wanna kinda speak to everyone listening right now. So for everyone listening right now, I want you to just ask yourself, "Have I had an episode or many, many, many episodes of this parental rage?" Just pause and ask yourself this, and hold next to your answer, especially if it's a yes, which I would guess is true for 100%-

   5. AMAnna Mathur10:53

      Mm

   6. BKDr. Becky Kennedy10:53

      ... of the human beings I know, including myself, is I'm still a good person. And then I want you to actually just say to yourself right now, "I must have important unmet needs. I must have important unmet needs." Anna is a licensed psychotherapist. So am I. Trust us when we say this is true. I must have important unmet needs. My rage is not a sign that I'm a bad parent or a bad person or that anything's wrong with me. My rage is a sign that I have unmet needs. And when I do have a whole host of unmet needs, and yes, it's normal to think, "I don't even know what my needs are," you can have unmet needs even if you don't know what your needs are. Very, very common. Then, Anna, what you were saying, and, and I'm a very visual person, so if you're like me and you're listening and you're not driving, you know, if you're driving, do not do what I'm saying. If you can put your hands out in front of you and, you know, kind of have a gap between them, and look at one hand and say, "This is an urge I'm having," and look at the other hand and say, "This is the actual action I'm having." And when we're in a place where we're more grounded, we can have an urge to yell at a kid, and it can be separate from the action of yelling at our kid, right? There's distance between our hands. Now, if you join me in kind of clapping your hands together, when we're in a place, and, and I'm curious if this is what you're saying, when we have these chronic kind of unmet needs, there's no space between urge and action. One just immediately converts into the other. So I have an urge to yell, and it's just coming out as a roar.

   7. AMAnna Mathur12:42

      Yeah, absolutely. It's like I, I liken it to, you know, when I'm really depleted, it's like my skin's gone.

   8. BKDr. Becky Kennedy12:48

      Mm-hmm.

   9. AMAnna Mathur12:48

      There's no buffer against the world. There's no... You know, the noise is louder. The stresses are more stressful. The challenges kind of are far more likely to floor me. I'm reacting to everything. My nervous system is just ready. It's wound up and ready, and-

   10. BKDr. Becky Kennedy13:03

       And you named yourself as a deeply feeling person-

   11. AMAnna Mathur13:05

       Yeah

   12. BKDr. Becky Kennedy13:05

       ... and it's one of the core things I think about deeply feeling kids and adults is their porousness, right? And that's what you're saying. No skin is, like, just complete porousness to the world.

   13. AMAnna Mathur13:13

       And I think, you know, even if people don't identify as a deeply feeling kid, when we're depleted, we're, we're more likely to get into that place. And as for not-

   14. BKDr. Becky Kennedy13:21

       Yes

6. 13:21 – 15:01

   Finding needs when you don’t know them: “trying on” possibilities

   1. AMAnna Mathur13:21

      ... knowing what those needs are, I've been there, and I, I sometimes what I find it really helpful to do, also very visual person, is I imagine standing in a shop and I'm trying on different clothes. And I'm, I'm, I'm just trying to... You know when you try things on, and sometimes you try something on and it just fits, and it fits and you know that it's the right fit for you. So the other day I was sitting in my car, and I was like, "Wow, I've got a need here. I don't know what it is." So I started listing them out to myself. I'm like, "Am I hungry? Am I tired? Do I need a hug? Am I lonely?" And that l- the word lonely just slotted into the core of me, and I was like, "Oh, I'm lonely," and I thought, "Right. There we go. That's the need there." And it's, I think sometimes we're so used to overlooking our needs-

   2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy14:06

      Mm

   3. AMAnna Mathur14:06

      ... that we don't even, we've lost the language of them for ourselves.

   4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy14:09

      But I love that. I love how you take away the morality around, "I don't know what my needs are," 'cause again, it's so easy for all of us to struggle with something and immediately convert that into badness or something's wrong with me. Even, like, I'm trying to figure out my needs. Okay, I have some needs. And you're right. Sometimes you go into a store and you think, "I do need new clothes. I don't know what I want, but I don't know exactly what I need, but I know I'm gonna go try some things on." And then you try something on and you say it fits, and you're like, "Awesome. I found something." Most people don't say to themselves, "God, what is wrong with me that I didn't know that I needed this red and pink polka dotted shirt? I should've known I was looking for this." No one says that. They just think, "Wow, cool. I went through a process and I found something that worked." So, uh, so empowering to think about our needs in that way. I'm just gonna try things on, I don't have to know if it fits, and trust over time that my body will just kinda click with something.

7. 15:01 – 16:30

   Why needs get buried: early learning, ‘need-less’ survival, and compassion

   1. AMAnna Mathur15:01

      Yeah, but this is what we do with our kids, isn't it? And there's always a, you know, there's always a little us inside of us, and for some of us that little us never really learnt the va- like, the value or the language for their needs. Or maybe they just hid them because... So for me there was, um, when I was young my sister had cancer, so there, there was so much going on that I wanted to be n- neat and tidy and almost need less. I didn't wanna add to the burden, so for me my needs just got pushed down. I didn't really value them. I didn't really have them validated 'cause I found it hard to talk about them. So, you know, for me, I need to go through that process, and I think as soon as we add that compassion and release that expectation of ourselves, we're less likely to get stuck because that shame and that self-judgment and that self-criticism that comes in those moments of frustration or rage or irritability because we don't like it, we don't like ourselves when we're like that. That's not, it doesn't fit with that view of how we think we should be as moms. And as soon as we release some of that shame and that judgment, we can see it for what it is. That is just a little flag that pops up and says, "Hey, you need something. Something's not quite right here. Are you okay? What do you need?" How can we start speaking to that little version of us inside that, you know, just like I do with my kids, "Are you okay?" Maybe they're, they're upset about something, and I just wanna gently find out what that is so that maybe I can, can sit with them in that or, or help them, support them.

8. 16:30 – 22:18

   Guilt vs. shame: accountability that moves you forward vs. spirals that trap you

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy16:30

      Shame, compassion, blame, curiosity. I'm just thinking about these various ways we can react to those moments of that rage coming out. So can you explain, I know you explained this so beautifully, like, what, what do shame and blame really do to us after those moments?

   2. AMAnna Mathur16:46

      Yeah, so they just keep us stuck in that place because it's almost as if, let's say there's, there's a need for support or, or you're going through something, you've tucked it away because life is busy and fast, and actually you're really sad about something that has happened, and it's just pushed down and pushed down, and it's an unmet need to talk, an unmet f- a, an undisclosed, an unvalidated feeling, and it just comes out. And then we pile on that shame and we pile on that frustration and we kiss our kids good night and we think, "I'm gonna be better tomorrow. I'm gonna try harder." And we push further and we push further and we try harder and we up the pressure, and then we're more like- you know, that just adds it all on. So when, when we feel that guilt, it's, it's thinking actually that guilt has purpose. It's there to say, "Right. Let's do something about this." It's not saying... 'Cause I, I've got many friends who will say to me, "Anna, don't worry about it. Everyone shouts at their kids." I'm like, "Do you know what? I am worried about it because to me it's something that I want to work on."

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy17:44

      Mm.

   4. AMAnna Mathur17:44

      It's not... I'll say, I might even say to my, to my kids, "You know, I'm really sorry that my emotions came out like that. I'm really sorry that I did shouting." And they might say, "It's okay, Mommy." I'm like, "Actually, do you know what? It's not how, it's not how I ideally want to be. It's not how I want to talk sometimes. So I, I'm tired and I'm grumpy and I'm gonna work on that."

   5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy18:04

      Mm.

   6. AMAnna Mathur18:05

      You know? So actually it's, it's taking, it's being accountable and it's taking responsibility and it's thinking, "Where would you like to be?" And I, and I always say it's not all of the time, but more of the time. So as we work on these things, we have to have compassion and grace for ourselves because we're not perfect. And as we know, children don't need a perfect parent to prepare them for a very imperfect world. So it's, it's recognizing that when that guilt is there, it's there to prompt us-

   7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy18:30

      Mm

   8. AMAnna Mathur18:30

      ... not to shame us. We can slip into that shame, "I am bad, I am wrong, I am not good enough", or we can go into that let guilt prompt us to think, "Right, what's going on here? How can I resource myself? What can I do? What can I read? What can I listen to? Which of Dr. Becky's podcasts-

   9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy18:49

      Mm

   10. AMAnna Mathur18:49

       ... might be helpful right now?" You know, and it's meeting, it's meeting that need because we want to do well. We don't need to do perfectly, but we want, we want to do well. So it's letting that guilt prompt you, has a purpose. We don't need to fear it. It's just horrible when it turns into that shame, and we do not need that because then we're stuck in it. We're stuck.

   11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy19:12

       That's exactly right. And, uh, you know, I, I think about it so similarly, maybe with slightly different language, right? That I agree. Guilt, guilt is a really helpful emotion. I always think guilt reminds me what my values are. Like I'm, I'm-

   12. AMAnna Mathur19:27

       Yeah

   13. BKDr. Becky Kennedy19:27

       ... I'm happy that something reminds me of my values when I'm in a bad place. It helps me reorient. And I think how guilt, for everyone listening, how I think about guilt is different from shame. Guilt allows me to see my behavior as not in line with my values while holding kind of who I am as a person as separate from my behavior. Essentially, I'm a good person who did a not so good thing. My behavior with the yelling, not so good, not in line with my values. My personhood, my identity remains good. I am good inside. To me, shame is very different in that we use some behavior to essentially define and take over our personhood. So yeah, I, I still yelled. That's still not great in either scenario, guilt or shame. But in shame, what happens is e- e- essentially my behavior collapses into my identity. I am bad because I did a bad thing. And so there's, there's no quick and easy way, you know, to, [laughs] uh, to cope with, with that difference. But I do think that's like a little bit of a shorthand. When you're in that spiral, that's probably shame and not guilt. And just to almost hold your hands out and say, "Here I am as a person, I'm a good person", and look that way, and then look the other way at the other hand and say, "Here's that thing I did. Yep, that was not so good." And, and I find that useful. I'm a good person, and then I look the other way, who did not such a good thing. And the only way we can cope and move forward is from a place of feeling good inside because as long as you feel bad inside, your entire energy has to go into kind of surviving that feeling. There's no growth there. There's no growth in survival mode, right? Finding that goodness, reminding yourself, "I'm still a good person". I always say to parents, 'cause they say the same thing, "Well, am I gonna let my kid off the hook?" Right? You're not letting anyone off the hook. I always think you're keeping someone on the hook. If you actually want to help someone change, if you want them to be responsible for change, you have to hold your own goodness or that person's goodness. If you wanna let them off the hook, blame and shame and punish away. Punish yourself, punish your kid. That's actually a way you let someone off the hook because it's impossible to change.

   14. AMAnna Mathur21:39

       Yeah. So true, and I think a good way to determine whether you're feeling guilt or shame is to think, are you moving towards the thing, the resource, the support-

   15. BKDr. Becky Kennedy21:50

       Mm

   16. AMAnna Mathur21:50

       ... that is gonna help you, or are you actually moving away? Because-

   17. BKDr. Becky Kennedy21:54

       Mm

   18. AMAnna Mathur21:54

       ... what's the point? I'm gonna fail anyway, I'm just a terrible person, my kids deserve more than this, and then we're just swimming around in it, and we're less likely to do the thing, whether it's rest or have that conversation, 'cause we- we're so embarrassed about it. You know, it's, uh, is it moving you towards that thing or is it moving you away?

   19. BKDr. Becky Kennedy22:15

       I love all these images that we're, we're working with.

   20. AMAnna Mathur22:17

       Love an image.

9. 22:18 – 25:24

   Preventing rage proactively: “What do I feel? What do I need?” check-ins

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy22:18

      So I, I wanna move to, I know a question probably on many people's mind, what can I do proactively, you know, to have fewer of these moments, to have less rage build up and then kind of come out when everything's overflowing? Um, because that's, I think that's what's better for everyone involved.

   2. AMAnna Mathur22:38

      Yeah, and I think it's really just starting to notice and ask yourself, I just use these two little questions, what do I feel? What do I need? You know, we check in with our kids often, don't we? We monitor them. We just kind of give- we just glance at them, make sure that they're okay, make sure that they're not kind of looking really hungry or really sleepy or, you know, kind of starting a fight with one another, and we just kind of, we just, we're just aware. And I think when we notice ourselves checking in with our kids, what would it be like just to say to yourself, feeling, need, feeling, need. What do I feel? What do I need? Might be nothing, or it might be like, "Oh, I'm just feeling really hormonal and I really need a wee."

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy23:15

      Mm.

   4. AMAnna Mathur23:15

      You know, just starting to become sensitive and aware of what those needs are. Even if you can't meet them then, just even acknowledging it, naming it, noticing it is validating. It's saying, "I matter." So that, you know, sometimes we don't realize that, that we're at that place before we just hit the crash. You know, something happens, the cereal box falls out the cupboard, and we're a mess-

   5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy23:41

      Yes

   6. AMAnna Mathur23:41

      ... because we haven't noticed that actually we've been overlooking these things so chronically, and then we shame ourselves 'cause we're like, "Oh my goodness, why am I so upset about this?" You know, sometimes it is that straw that breaks the camel's back that finds us on the floor on a Wednesday afternoon, you know, having viscerally roared like a lion because I can't even remember what the trigger was at that moment. But it would've been something small.

   7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy24:06

      Yep.

   8. AMAnna Mathur24:06

      But actually, it, you know, and it's seeing, it's looking behind and thinking, instead of being cross with myself for what just happened that seemed so insignificant- What about looking back and thinking, "What contributed to that? What needs am I overlooking? How can I start just making space for them in normal life, day-to-day life?" Because the more we give, the more we need. It's simple science-

   9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy24:27

      Mm

   10. AMAnna Mathur24:28

       ... isn't it? You n- we know that when it comes to our car. We put the fuel in. The longer we drive, the more fuel we need. Yet with ourselves, I think, you know, we just look for all the hacks, the coffee, the, any way to kind of shortcut meeting a need so that we can just subdue it and silence it and tuck it away. And these things just build. They just become more urgent.

   11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy24:53

       I think that's really powerful, that idea of shortcuts. I'm, I'm not gonna remember, right, I don't remember where I read this, but someone said, like, "You know, there's always two problems with shortcuts. You get somewhere unprepared," right, "or you get somewhere before you're supposed to be there." And it, it's interesting, right, with self-care, like, is a shortcut to self-care, right, having a cup of coffee? Well, it might not be. You might actually need more time than that. You might need to do something different. And, you know, I think another piece that we, you

10. 25:24 – 27:30

    The bigger system: rejecting the ‘selfless mother’ ideal

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy25:24

       know, haven't gotten to yet is this, this is so much bigger than any one of us in terms of our, you know, pattern of not listening to or getting to know or meeting our own needs, right? We are up also against this, you know, huge, you know, societal construct around motherhood as such selflessness. It's always a term that I find terrifying, the idea of a mother as selfless or a father or any parent as selfless. Like, you know, I always think about a parent as, like, the leader of a family or the CEO. I just don't know anyone who wants a selfless CEO of anything. Like, you want someone to be without a self? That's actually, like, the most terrifying image.

    2. AMAnna Mathur26:06

       Yeah. Well, when you strip it back like that, you know, I think we think about it as giving and loving. And, you know, I started motherhood thinking that to love, and this is the, the narrative that I, I learnt as a child, that to love is to give yourself away without question, without, you know, without really showing the cost. And, and I think, you know, our kids need us to have a self because that is how that they, they learn, you know. Is it that all of these emotions stop when you become a mum, the rage, the boredom, the frustration, the apathy, the, you know, all of those feelings, do they just stop when we become mums? 'Cause sometimes I feel like that's, that's the pressure that we place upon ourselves, is that when we have a baby, we lose half the spectrum of human emotion, and we feel cross with ourselves when we feel anything other than that caricature or idea of nurturing and loving and sacrificial.

    3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy27:03

       Mm-hmm.

    4. AMAnna Mathur27:03

       You know, we give ourselves away, and then what have we got left?

    5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy27:06

       And, and I think, you know, it can be pretty practical sometimes. And to me, like, the idea of motherhood as selflessness or self-sacrificial, I can just say for me, does not serve me. That idea does not serve me, period. That to me as an adult is enough to rally around something different. It sounds like it doesn't really serve you either.

11. 27:30 – 29:06

    When self-sacrifice breaks you: the reflux story and losing access to joy

    1. AMAnna Mathur27:30

       No. Gosh, no, and it doesn't serve my kids, and it doesn't serve my family, and it doesn't serve my friendships. And I think this is what I started to realize when, so my second, uh, my lovely, deeply feeling kid had silent reflux, and it went undi- undiagnosed for the first kind of six months of his life, so he screamed and screamed, and it was awful. And I, I tried and I tried and I tried to f- to fix the world, and I couldn't. And I had less and less resources, and I remember just feeling like an utter... I felt like I was bad inside. I felt like if I was good inside, I would've been able to be enough for my child. So I kind of almost took and absorbed all of the blame and the pain and the, the, the difficultness about that situation. And I remember, you know, thinking, "I have pushed on and pushed on and pushed on 'cause I have felt this is what I should do as a good mum." And then I started to realize I wasn't happy. I wasn't happy. I was... You know, it wasn't just that the situation was difficult, it was just that I had nothing left of myself. I didn't even have a sense of humor anymore. 'Cause we need energy to laugh. We need energy to rationalize anxious thoughts. We need energy to coach ourselves through moments where we feel tempted to compare the living daylights out of ourselves against what we see on social media. We need energy to engage in other people, to invest in relationships. And I think I'd seen this giving of myself away as love, when actually, the, in reality, uh, chronically, it stopped me being able to truly give and receive love in a way that made life fulfilling, in a way that it should be.

12. 29:06 – 32:41

    In-the-moment boundaries: swimming, workouts, and tolerating kids’ protest

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy29:06

       So I would love to end with kind of taking some of this and turning it into some kind of really practical in-the-moment kind of strategies because I know people listening are thinking, "Okay, yes, probably that idea of motherhood or fatherhood as self-sacrifice, that doesn't serve me either." And, and just saying that out loud is so powerful. It takes away judgment, just whether an idea serves you or not. Does that serve me? It does not serve me. If we go with that, then I think putting that into action involves these moments of, like, how do I actually carve out time for myself? What do I say to myself to motivate doing that? And what do I say maybe to my kids, e- essentially, in those moments? And I, I would love, Anna, for you to go first. And it could be on something different, but I love a reel you have about, and it involves you swimming.

    2. AMAnna Mathur29:55

       Yeah.

    3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy29:55

       Can you speak about that and maybe relate that to, in a moment that you are choosing to, say, go swimming as an act of fulfilling a need you have, what, what do you say to yourself to convince yourself this is important, and what might you say to a kid who, let's be honest, is at the door saying, "No" or "Can I come with you?" Right?

    4. AMAnna Mathur30:11

       Yeah. So you know what? That was transformational for me, this realization that in, in doing these things to fill myself up- I was loving my children. I was literally equipping myself to be able to respond and react more lovingly to them. I was widening that gap between that reaction, that immediate whatever it was, the sniping remark or the shout. I was widening that gap between what I sometimes felt like doing, because I'm human and I have a reaction and a nervous system response to so- something, and sometimes I just wanna run out of the house, but I'm not gonna do that. And I'm far less likely to do that when I've had some breathing space, some time, some little something that invests back into myself. And it's, you know, it's not overlooking those small things. Even if it's 10 minutes to do a quick walk round the block and ground myself in nature and take some deep breaths, something is always better than nothing. But I started realizing that these things are acts of love towards my children, 'cause they literally... I remember saying to my therapist once on a, in one of the, uh, in the pandemic, I said, "It's like my parenting depends on me going for a walk." And she said, "Yeah, Anna, because it does." And it was like, wow. And I started seeing these things that historically for me had been so ridden with guilt, and, you know, oh, I feel bad doing this. And, you know, just it really, I started, it was like I just took these hazy old glasses off and started seeing these things for what they were. And a shower that I used to brand as self-care, wa-hey, I've ticked the self-care box, I had a shower. My husband doesn't come out the shower and go, "Wa-hey, I've ticked the self-care box," or, "I've had a glass of water. Wa-hey, go me." I had to start upping my, my level of what that actually meant for me. You know, what's ref- what's gonna refill and refuel me? It doesn't matter as much to what it is, but, but what it gives me. It doesn't need to look like it does for your mate or someone else on the internet. It's what gives, what gives you something. And as for the kids, they know that I do these things, and I say, "No, Mommy's gonna go and do her workout now. Here you go. You watch this for a little bit." And they can come and see me if they need anything, but they just, as I've implemented it more into my life, it's just become more normal for them.

    5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy32:24

       Mm-hmm.

    6. AMAnna Mathur32:25

       They know, they understand. They might not always like it, but they benefit. They might not like it sometimes, but they benefit, and that, that, that, that is far more important. I can deal with their momentary dislike when I know what I'm giving them as a result.

13. 32:41 – 36:40

    Owning your ‘other parts’: modeling a lived life beyond parenting

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy32:41

       I, I love that. And, you know, I think it, it's Glennon Doyle who talks about, you know, our kids learn what love is, and our kids will learn what parenthood is from us, and they'll repeat that, right? So the message you wanna give your kids around what does it mean, what is a mother, right? How does a mother love, in what ways, to herself, to her kids? Uh, they really benefit from having a mom who says, "I'm going to take a swim." Yes, that is important, right? And I'm going to exercise because it's for myself. I, you know, for me, one of the things I think about here is how important it is for me to go out with girlfriends or for me to go out with my husband and another couple without kids, right? And how important it is to maintain those other parts of me, part of friend, part of colleague, part wife, right? All the parts of me that are not mom, right? That being a mom is a part of me. I would say it's a important part of me, but I really mean this. It's still a part of me. It's a part of me, and if I don't attend to those other parts, the whole system breaks down, because w- I am not meant to turn into one of my parts. I- I- I- nothing works well. And so I think about, you know, the times that I carve out, you know, a dinner with a girlfriend, and then I can't put my kids to bed, or me and my husband both go out, right? And I do think there's something about really owning this to our kids that's so important, because I think when they hear our hesitation, you know, or almost when we ask for permission, "You have soccer with your friends. You know, I have to go out with my friends," like, whoa, of course they protest more, because what they really hear is, "My mom isn't so sure it's safe to go out with her friend. She's asking me, like a five-year-old, [laughs] essentially, for permission." That doesn't feel good for anyone, because it's just a reversal of roles. And it feels so good, really, to say to my kids in such a straightforward way, "I love being your mom, and I love being Dad's wife, and part of being a wife is actually spending time with your husband without your kids here. That's really important. That's why we go to dinner on Thursday nights with no kids." And it's so liberating to hear myself say that. I actually think it's so comforting for a kid to hear that in such a straightforward way. And so I think what I say to myself before that to motivate that is some version of, there are so many parts of me, and all of them are worthy of attention, right? Motherhood is a part of me, and that's only one part, and that a- allows me to own it. And then when my kids still do, 'cause of course they do, they're independent people, say, "No, but I want you to put me to bed," I can empathize. "Oh, you wish Mommy could stay tonight. I know you never like when a babysitter puts you to bed. I get that. It's gonna be one of the harder nights, and I know you can get through it." I actually can empathize with my kid because I don't see their protest as a sign I'm doing something wrong, 'cause I've already convinced myself of the importance of this decision.

    2. AMAnna Mathur35:53

       Powerful stuff. And then when you acknowledge all those different parts of yourself, instead of just living the one and deciding that that is the okay one and all the other ones have to, all the other parts have to live in the shadows, and then resentment comes in.

    3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy36:04

       Yeah. Like, fuck that. Is that okay? Like, right?

    4. AMAnna Mathur36:07

       Yeah.

    5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy36:07

       Yeah.

    6. AMAnna Mathur36:07

       You can say that. Yeah.

    7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy36:08

       Yeah, I said it.

    8. AMAnna Mathur36:10

       'Cause the kids will feel that.

    9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy36:11

       Yeah.

    10. AMAnna Mathur36:12

        You know? And what is it, is it Young that says how, you know, one of the biggest gifts w- essentially we can give our children is, is the lived life-

    11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy36:19

        Mm

    12. AMAnna Mathur36:20

        ... of a mo- Ah, a lived life. They are watching us not be self- selfless, not being selfish, but being self, to show them that they can grow up and be self too. When they grow up, they don't have to stop seeing their friends. They don't have to stop being able to sit and chill on the sofa. They don't have to stop having fun. They can carry on being their self too

14. 36:40 – 42:05

    Three takeaways + where to find Anna Mathur

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy36:40

       First of all, you and I could talk forever, and I know there'll be another opportunity, or I hope there will. The way I love to end podcasts is to give listeners three takeaways. So, so many important things, but we all know, me and you too, right, we're moms and multiple kids. Sometimes you're like, "Just tell me the things. Like, I, it's too much, too many things in my head." So I'm gonna ask you to take number one and three, and I'll jump in with number two.

    2. AMAnna Mathur37:03

       Okay.

    3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy37:03

       So if listeners are taking away three things-

    4. AMAnna Mathur37:07

       Mm-hmm

    5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy37:07

       ... from this conversation, what would those three things be?

    6. AMAnna Mathur37:11

       Feeling need, feeling need. Asking yourself, set it as a reminder on your phone, write it on the back of your hand, F-N. What do I feel? What do I need? Don't need to act on it now. You don't even need to understand why. Just acknowledge it and, and vocalize it to yourself. Yeah.

    7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy37:27

       Okay, I'm gonna take number two. Ask yourself right now, what part of me can I identify that's important beyond my role as a parent? And it doesn't have to be a friend or a wife. It can be a dancer. It can be a baker, even though you've never been a professional baker, you just like to bake. What other part of me can I identify beyond my role as a parent, and can I give that part a little bit more attention and time this week?

    8. AMAnna Mathur37:59

       Mm-hmm. Brilliant. I'm gonna think about that one as well. So my third one would be, see, when you feel guilt, see it as it's there, its purpose is to prompt you to think about a need that might've been overlooked. It is not there to shame you. What might it be prompting you to do?

    9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy38:20

       Love that. Now, can you tell everyone how they can get more of you? 'Cause I know everyone, like me, will want to follow up.

    10. AMAnna Mathur38:28

        So I'm on the Gram, Instagram, @annamathur, A-double N-A-M-A-T-H-U-R. I've got books. I've got one called My Nova Mother about worry and anxiety in motherhood. I've got one called Know Your Worth, which is about self-esteem, boundaries, people-pleasing, and then one recent one called The Little Book of Calm for new moms, which really everyone says is relevant regardless of how old your kids are. But it's just a little book of emotions, and you just skip to the emotion that you feel. You don't read it front to back, and you just get little kind of pep talks and words of encouragement, some ways of untangling that feeling. And yeah, I've got a podcast called The Therapy Edit, which is all little 10, 20-minute-long ramblings like this and chats with guests.

    11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy39:11

        I love how well you understand a parent's experience, even that. Like, this book is not meant to be read front to back. I hope everyone here heard that because that's a book I really want, right? The book that you're like, "This is meant to read in, like, two-minute chunks," right?

    12. AMAnna Mathur39:24

        Yeah, absolutely. That's where my mind is at the moment.

    13. BKDr. Becky Kennedy39:27

        Well, thank you so much for being here. I love this conversation that happened as we came together, and can't wait for our next opportunity to connect.

    14. AMAnna Mathur39:37

        I loved it too. Thank you for the privilege. [instrumental music plays]

    15. BKDr. Becky Kennedy39:41

        Thanks for listening to Good Inside. I love co-creating episodes with you based on the real-life tricky situations in your family. To share what's happening in your home, you can call 646-598-2543 or email a voice note to goodinsidepodcast@gmail.com. There are so many more strategies and tips I want to share with you and so many Good Inside parents I want you to meet. I'm beyond excited that we now have a way to connect and learn together. Head to goodinside.com to learn more about Good Inside Membership. I promise you, you're going to love it. It's totally game-changing. And if you're not already receiving my free weekly email, go to goodinside.com to sign up. You don't wanna miss it. Good Inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Mary Kelly, our senior producer is Beth Rowe, and our executive producers are Erica Belsky and me. If you enjoyed this episode, please do take a moment to rate and review it, or share this episode with a friend or family member as a way to start an important conversation. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves, even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside. [keyboard typing] Why is it so hard to find reliable answers to parenting questions? How is it in 2022 parents still search on Google for answers from strangers? Well, now there's a better way. Introducing the Good Inside Membership, an expert-guided, community-powered platform redefining modern parenting. In our library, you'll find hundreds of bite-sized videos, articles, scripts, and workshops tackling the trickiest parenting topics, and it doesn't stop here. We've created a private community guided by me, Dr. Becky, and coaches trained in the Good Inside parenting method. Here, you can ask questions, connect with other parents, or attend a live event on a topic that matters to you. This is the parenting handbook that doesn't exist. This is parenting advice at your fingertips, where you need it, when you need it the most. This is Good Inside Membership.

Episode duration: 42:26