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Monica and Adam Mosseri on Managing Separation Anxiety

Does your kid struggle to separate from you? Or maybe “struggle” feels like the world’s biggest understatement given the non-stop tears, screams, and clinging-on-for-dear-life that happens anytime you leave? You’re not the only one: Instagram CEO Adam Mosseri and his wife Monica get it. In fact, sometimes leaving their five-year-old son for date night feels more exhausting than relaxing. This week, the couple joins the podcast with Dr. Becky to brainstorm what’s going for their son when they leave and how to help him through the feelings behind his behavior. From keeping goodbyes short to telling stories from our own childhoods, the three talk through strategies to use both inside and outside the moment to reduce separation anxiety, increase safety, and ground ourselves (and our kids) in goodness. Join Good Inside Membership: http://www.goodinside.com Follow Dr. Becky on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drbeckyatgoodinside Sign up for our weekly email, Good Insider: https://www.goodinside.com/newsletter Want More? Check these out: What Should I Say When My Kid Is Afraid? - https://youtu.be/eDU4W85ez5g How Do I Handle Being Rejected by My Child? - https://youtu.be/tiLKBcHIDqs Why Won't My Kids Listen To Anything I Say? - https://youtu.be/Rb7FSL1y3Oo Deeply Feeling Kids Need a Different Approach - https://youtu.be/WQNM5EyDtKE Motherhood Doesn’t Have to Be Martyrdom - https://youtu.be/ywJMtRHzqFY

Dr. Becky KennedyhostAdam MosseriguestMonica Mosseriguest
May 6, 202237mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:01 – 1:02

    Good Inside Membership: expert-guided parenting resources and community

    1. BK

      Why is it so hard to find reliable answers to parenting questions? How is it in 2022 parents still search on Google for answers from strangers? Well, now there's a better way. Introducing the Good Inside Membership, an expert-guided, community-powered platform redefining modern parenting. In our library, you'll find hundreds of bite-sized videos, articles, scripts, and workshops tackling the trickiest parenting topics, and it doesn't stop here. We've created a private community guided by me, Dr. Becky, and coaches trained in the Good Inside parenting method. Here, you can ask questions, connect with other parents, or attend a live event on a topic that matters to you. This is the parenting handbook that doesn't exist. This is parenting advice at your fingertips, where you need it, when you need it the most. This is Good Inside Membership. Hi, I'm Dr. Becky,

  2. 1:02 – 3:50

    Dr. Becky’s mission and today’s focus: separation struggles are normal

    1. BK

      and this is Good Inside. I'm a clinical psychologist and mom of three on a mission to rethink the way we raise our children. I love translating deep thoughts about parenting into practical, actionable strategies that you can use in your home right away. One of my core beliefs is that we are all doing the best we can with the resources we have available to us in that moment. So even as we struggle, and even as we are having a hard time on the outside, we remain good inside. Today, I'm talking with Instagram CEO Adam Mosseri and his wife Monica Mosseri, parents of three young boys. Adam and Monica open up about their eldest's separation struggles and how it surfaces when they leave to go out for dinner or try to separate at soccer practice. We brainstorm together about what is going on when kids scream at your departure or refuse to join a class, and how to help our kids with the struggles they're having underneath these painful moments. Here's something I want to say before we dive in: it's normal for kids to protest separation. After all, we are their rocks and their source of stability, and moving away from us can feel really scary. To help our kids in these moments, we need to ground ourselves in what our role is versus what our kids' role is, and also we need to build skills outside separation moments that our kids can use during the separation moments. Well, lucky for you, Adam, Monica, and I cover all of this in our short conversation, so let's jump in. Adam and Monica, I'm so, so honored, so happy to have you here. Thank you for talking with me.

    2. AM

      Thanks for having us.

    3. MM

      Thanks for having us. We're very excited.

    4. AM

      We're fans.

    5. MM

      Yes.

    6. AM

      So we're excited to be here.

    7. MM

      Thank you for what you do. [laughs]

    8. AM

      We were listening to the podcast on a drive recently, just trying to be better parents. [laughs]

    9. MM

      Keep it together. [laughs] Trying to keep it together and be present parents.

    10. BK

      Well, when I record, you know, I often will record something and listen to it a lot later and review it, and I seriously will hear things that I say and I'll be like, "I, I have no recollection of saying that. I could have used that yesterday with my own kids, but now that I'm reviewing it, I'm gonna try that today." So we're in the same boat, listening to podcasts, trying to do better. So let's jump in. Just tell me a little bit about who you guys are and what's on your mind today.

  3. 3:50 – 6:17

    Meet Adam and Monica Mosseri: three boys and post-COVID transition stress

    1. MM

      So let's see. We have three children, three boys. Our oldest is five, our middle is three, and our youngest is one and a half, and we're currently adjusting back to what is sort of a new normal. We have our kids back in school, and it wasn't the case last year, and we have a younger one-half-year-old who's starting to interact with other people and children who hasn't for the last, you know, two years almost.

    2. AM

      It's a COVID baby.

    3. MM

      Yes, it's a COVID baby.

    4. AM

      So he doesn't know people outside the pod.

    5. MM

      And we're, we're experiencing some challenging transitions back, um, particularly with our five-year-old, and so I think some of the things we were excited to get your advice on were specific to him, but then do sort of play out with our others as well.

    6. AM

      Challenging is, like, almost putting it a little bit lightly.

    7. MM

      [laughs]

    8. AM

      It's, [laughs] it's been a pretty rough couple months, uh, especially with the kids in and out of school with COVID scares. Anytime they get a cough, you know, out of school, PCR tests. We have, you know, colds run through the boys one at a time, so we had one sick yesterday, a different one sick this morning, and so we've had, [laughs] we've had some highs and some lows, I think it's fair to say.

    9. MM

      I think that's right.

    10. AM

      [laughs]

    11. MM

      And then in addition to that, having, you know, a five-year-old and a three-year-old and a one-year-old getting used to this new schedule where they're away from us, they're meeting new people, they're in a school learning new things, and they've been used to being by our side even while we've been working, you know, in and out of the house, uh, for the, for the last year and a half. So we're struggling.

    12. AM

      [laughs]

    13. MM

      And [laughs] we need Dr. Becky's help.

    14. BK

      Uh, I have three kids, too, and mine are a little bit more spaced out, but it's been really rough. I mean, I think I would say the same thing. Challenging is, like, a, I don't know, a nice enough euphemism for how it can feel, right? And the way we're all unwinding, uh, I don't even know if unwinding's the right word, but somewhat unwinding from at least the most intense phase thus far, [laughs] I hope ever, of the pandemic. It's been significant, right? I mean, it's, like, a lot on us. It's a lot on our kids. It's so many transitions. It's so many changes. It's so much uncertainty. One set of rules, another set of rules, right? Nothing that we can really, uh- Stay grounded in. So makes sense. I think you, your house, my house, like, we are definitely not the only two homes that are experiencing a lot of struggles. So let's jump into the specifics. Can I hear about whatever specifically is on your mind? Like, here's a situation, or here's the kind of theme?

    15. MM

      Yeah.

    16. AM

      [laughs]

  4. 6:17 – 8:17

    The core problem: intense distress when parents leave for date night or events

    1. MM

      I- I- I think the most recent one is really, maybe the theme is sort of attachment.

    2. BK

      Mm.

    3. MM

      And I would say we haven't left the kids really over the last year and a half, but we've started to get in a groove and do date night and have a couple of work obligations and friend obligations that take us out from dinner.

    4. BK

      Yeah.

    5. MM

      And our five-year-old can't handle it. "Where are you going? Why aren't you gonna stay for dinner? You always leave us"

    6. AM

      You don't spend enough time with us.

    7. MM

      You don't spend enough time with us.

    8. AM

      He gets really sad. He starts to cry.

    9. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    10. MM

      We've tried to give him a heads-up. We've, you know, given him our schedule for, for the week.

    11. AM

      We do Thurs- you know, we do Thursday date night, so he knows it's coming.

    12. MM

      It-

    13. AM

      That helps a little bit

    14. BK

      Mm.

    15. MM

      And, you know, after a day of school and after just feeling emotional, he, he breaks down, and he cries, and he usually loses it, and we're trying to get out of the house and not be too late or cancel, which, you know, we've sometimes done-

    16. BK

      Mm-hmm

    17. MM

      ... if we're feeling really exhausted, and just get out of the house and just sort of extract ourselves and quickly-

    18. AM

      But he needs to be, like, physically held by the nanny so that we can close the door. Like, it's that level of intensity.

    19. BK

      Yep. So yeah, that's what I wanna know. So when you said he can't handle it, right, he's telling you he doesn't like it. He's telling you he's upset. Okay, but it's more intense than that.

    20. AM

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    21. BK

      It's intense than that.

    22. AM

      He will, like, he will try and follow us out the door, so we have to have, have to put him... He's not a small kid. We have to put him in the nanny's arms and, like, tell him you love him, tell him we'll be back in two hours and, and then close the door. And he will come around, but he, but o- once we leave, he can be upset for a period of time, and then he can get really mean, um, and kind of lets that anger out on, uh, on the nanny, which is not great either. Um, but clearly he's struggling. Clearly he's got, he's dealing with a lot, and, and so we're just trying to figure out how we can help him.

    23. MM

      With this transition.

    24. BK

      Yeah. And just so I know, is it the same type of separation struggles when he goes to school, or is, is that different?

    25. MM

      Less when he goes to school. Mostly when we're removing ourselves from, you know, a dinner or having to be out for a couple hours on a Saturday.

    26. AM

      We went to a wedding, like that kind of thing.

    27. MM

      Yeah, exactly.

  5. 8:17 – 9:45

    What it triggers in parents: guilt, impatience, and second-guessing leaving

    1. BK

      Uh, and before we get into some kind of brainstorming together, what, what comes up for you guys in those moments when you, kind of the door's closed, you're in the car, you're walking to where you're going? Like, what, what's that like?

    2. MM

      At first it's guilt because, oh, did I not spend enough time with him today? What, what are, by my hours of quality time with him this week? I start to quickly run through my head or around things, um, you know, just reflect back on the week, and so that's challenging.

    3. AM

      He throws some psychological bombs.

    4. MM

      He, yeah. He, he really-

    5. AM

      Like, he'll be like, "You spend, I spend more time with the nanny than I spend with you. You don't love me enough." Like, he-

    6. MM

      Mm-hmm

    7. AM

      ... you know, you don't, you know. He'll, he'll throw out some pretty serious emotional grenades.

    8. MM

      Yeah. So at first it's guilt, and then it quickly, because y- we try to talk him down, a- and then it quickly becomes sort of honestly impa- like we're b- becoming impatient, right?

    9. BK

      Yeah.

    10. MM

      And so, and then we have to extract ourselves.

    11. BK

      Yep.

    12. MM

      And then the first 30 minutes for us are unwind as well, 'cause what do we do? How do we make, how do we get him better prepared?

    13. BK

      Yeah.

    14. MM

      What can we do to make this easier on ourselves? Is it worth going out right now? Should we work through this phase?

    15. AM

      Yeah, like the come down kind of-

    16. MM

      Right. Should we work through this phase and then start introducing our, you know, date nights and other obligations? Should one of us leave, one of us stay? We really, we're really struggling.

    17. BK

      And w- maybe one more piece of data collection on my end before we go further. So he's saying like, "You don't love me. You spend, you spend more time at your job than you spend with me. You spend more time with this person." Like, right, kids say all types of things that- [laughs]

    18. AM

      Oh, yeah

    19. BK

      ... are a dagger to our heart.

    20. MM

      Mm.

    21. BK

      Right?

    22. MM

      Exactly.

  6. 9:45 – 11:21

    Current goodbye approach: long comforting talks, tagging in/out, and time pressure

    1. BK

      Just tell me what, what would I be seeing inside the home? One of you is saying what back or doing what in response?

    2. AM

      Usually it would be one of us. So one of us would try.

    3. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    4. AM

      And so one of us would, like, talk to him, give him a hug, hold him, say, "Hey, we're gonna be back in two hour" It helps if we're more specific.

    5. MM

      Mm-hmm. Yes.

    6. AM

      So, "We think we'll be back around 8:30. Maybe you'll still be up," 'cause he goes to bed around 7:30, 8:00, but sometimes he's still up. "We're gonna come in your room. We'll give you a kiss. You know, it's Thursday. We always do this every Thursday." You kinda like, you kind of like try to walk him through it. Uh, but he's so triggered. He's like in an emotional, he's out of control. Like, he's not like-

    7. MM

      Totally

    8. AM

      ... physically hitting necessarily or that kind of thing, but he's, he's not, it's hard to re- reason with him, so we just try to, like, ground him as much as we can. And then sometimes he will get there, and if he gets there, basically it might be 20 minutes of this or 25 minutes of like this sort of like-

    9. BK

      Mm

    10. AM

      ... like tantrum kind of s- style. But if he gets there, he'll then say, he's like, "Okay, bye." He'll say bye, and that's his way of, like, indicating that he's actually accepted that we're going to leave.

    11. MM

      But sometimes we don't have-

    12. AM

      But sometimes you won't

    13. MM

      ... the 30 minutes to give him to, to work through it, so we have to say, "We love you."

    14. AM

      We actually never do. We're almost always late to dinner 'cause-

    15. MM

      Yeah, like we have to say, "We love you. We'll see you soon."

    16. BK

      Yep.

    17. MM

      "We'll be back tonight." He's al- he's wondering sometimes, are you... And we're usually always, you know, we're, like, there's been, we've had one weekend away. Um, he's, "Are you, will you be back tonight? Will you, will I wake up in the morning and you'll be there?"

    18. AM

      Yeah.

    19. BK

      Yeah. Yeah.

    20. MM

      And so there's ser- there's anxiety here.

    21. AM

      And we tag in and out here, right? 'Cause we'll, if like if you f-

    22. MM

      Yep

    23. AM

      ... if one of us feels like one of us is getting short or about to get short, we'll kinda have the other one go in-

    24. MM

      Yep

    25. AM

      ... and talk to him and switch.

    26. BK

      And it sounds like, I just wanna make the assumption based on what you said, it sounds like he's staying with someone he knows. It's not that that's the-

    27. AM

      Yes.

    28. MM

      Yes, correct.

    29. BK

      Okay, great.

    30. MM

      Oh, yeah.

  7. 11:21 – 12:34

    Key reframe: kids’ feelings don’t determine the rightness of your decision

    1. BK

      Okay. Just so I know. Okay, so a couple ideas. First of all, his feelings about your going out, and I really mean this, are really important for us to separate from your decision about going out, right? So the intensity of his feelings about it does not indicate to me that you're making a bad decision, that we shouldn't, you know, do this, right? He's in an environment, it sounds like, where he's safe. Like, he's safe. He, he's staying in his house.

    2. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    3. BK

      He knows this other person. He's very comfortable. You trust that other person, right? And he would rather you not do this, and it's a huge change from a year and a half of probably never Right? Leaving him on a Thursday night.

    4. MM

      Correct.

    5. BK

      Right?

    6. AM

      Yeah.

    7. BK

      And, and I know it sounds like such a basic idea, but I think so often, I, I mean, I do this to my kids too. Like, I'll think, like, "How can I get my kid to do this or to stop doing this?" Versus, "Okay, my kid's gonna do that, and I kinda need to help, but, like, how can I show up in a way that I have control over?" Because when I show up a little bit differently, the system's different, and kids change when the system changes. So we're gonna get more concrete than that, but that's, like, an overarching thing I'm thinking about.

    8. MM

      Mm-hmm.

  8. 12:34 – 17:39

    Keep goodbyes short: stop the reassurance spiral and project calm leadership

    1. BK

      So first thing, talking about this for 20 minutes, way too long.

    2. MM

      [laughs]

    3. BK

      Way too long, right? It is, it's ruminative. It's just kind of cycling, right? And he's not, he's not able to get the thing he even wants, which is you just to stay home, right? And you're not really gonna be able to get the thing you want, which is it would be lovely if he said, "Oh, makes sense, Mom and Dad. Like, go have a date night. It's so good for your marriage. So great."

    4. MM

      [laughs] How I wish.

    5. BK

      Like, have fun, right? Like, not gonna happen. And also not his job, right?

    6. MM

      Right.

    7. AM

      Yeah.

    8. BK

      It's just not, it's not our kid's job to make us feel good about, you know, our time away from them, right? He's definitely experiencing separation anxiety, but in a way, the more we linger sometimes and stay and stay and stay ... Now, of course, I wouldn't suggest just peacing out either. There's a lot in between. But it can actually kind of just make a kid cycle more in their anxious state. So if you're leaving your house at, I'm making this up, 7:30, and you're like, "Ugh, we're often late," and we have a whatever time the reservation is, but we have to leave at 7:30. I actually think it's important for the two of you to be like, "We're leaving at 7:30." And actually keeping this period shorter-

    9. MM

      Mm-hmm

    10. BK

      ... is really important because what he's gonna get is we're not gonna try to convince him out of this feeling. That's what we're doing in those 20 minutes. We're trying to kind of convince him out of the feeling or don't feel it as intensely. When our kids feel like we're as scared of their feelings as they are, the feelings get worse.

    11. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    12. BK

      And one of the reasons kids feel like we're scared of their feelings is that we don't wanna tolerate it being there. We try to get them out of it. So as an example, I think instead of like, "Hey, we do this every Thursday night, and, like, it's gonna be okay," um, "Hey, Nico, listen, we're going out. You're gonna be really upset. That's okay. You're gonna cry, and, you know, whatever the nanny's name is is gonna be with you, and at some point the feeling is gonna start to feel better, and then Mommy and Daddy are gonna come back. That's what's about to happen." Okay, I'm gonna take a break and next part would pretty soon after look like this. "We're about to go. I'm gonna give you one hug. I know it's gonna feel really hard, and then we are turning, and we are walking away. You're safe. We love you. We'll see you in the morning." That's the separation routine.

    13. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    14. BK

      Anything more than that makes the anxiety cycle go around and around and around. So tell me thoughts about that, reactions to that, how that's similar or different from what you do currently.

    15. AM

      It's, uh, I think what happens-

    16. MM

      Yeah

    17. AM

      ... is I think we, uh, one of us will struggle in the moment to sort of do it-

    18. MM

      Right, right

    19. AM

      ... just because, 'cause, because usually it's, usually the predominant emotion is guilt, not-

    20. BK

      Yes

    21. AM

      ... not frustration to stop.

    22. BK

      Correct. Correct.

    23. AM

      Um, but yeah, no, I think that makes a ton of sense. I, I do feel like one of the things that's very clear about him is that he struggles with transitions more broadly.

    24. BK

      Yeah.

    25. AM

      And I do feel like it's really helpful to just think about the job in those moments as getting him through that transition and not necessarily having him be, like, ha- happy about it.

    26. BK

      Yeah.

    27. AM

      And I feel like there, there have been a, we've gotten better at a number of other parts of how we parent where, him through transitions, but I think in general we've made a mistake in a number of different places where we just drag it out too long, try to convince him-

    28. BK

      Yeah.

    29. MM

      Mm

    30. AM

      ... and he's not gonna be convinced 'cause you, he's saying things, and so your rational self wants to argue with his things that he's saying which don't make sense, but the truth is it's-

  9. 17:39 – 20:08

    Validate the magnitude of the emotion (not just the label)

    1. BK

      Beyond validating the emotion, which I know people talk about a lot, right? Like, you're, you're upset, or you wish we didn't go out. I, that's great. Sometimes kids, especially as they get older, some kids actually find that annoying, right? And they respond better to validating the magnitude of the emotion. So rather than, "You're upset we're going out," "Nico, you're not upset we're going out. You're not, like, upset the way you'd be upset, you know, if your block tower fell down. You're upset, like, as big as this house. Act- forget that. You're as upset as big as this neighborhood. You're h- upset as big as this whole co- count- bigger than the country? Okay, is it North America?" Right? Whatever you wanna play around with. "You're upset as a 10. Oh, it's not a 10, it's an 100," if he likes numbers. Just use the size. And- That really speaks to kids because I think what he's looking for, and this is gonna tie into another point, I think it's even why he says such biting things to you, he's looking for you to see that this isn't just painful, this is very painful. Again, very painful doesn't mean he's not safe, and it doesn't mean you don't have to go out. He's just looking for that to be seen and validated, and for the two of you to kind of be sturdy leaders through that. So that's another thing. Uh, you could do that in a moment, or I think a lot can be done outside the moment, too. So it's the next morning, "Ugh, last night was really hard, huh? You know what I'm thinking about? You know the other day that you, you got really, really mad because, ugh, you missed the soccer net, right? When you were playing, got so mad the goal didn't go in. That was mad. That wasn't like last night, though. Like, last night was huge mad. Like, how big was it?" And even kids will even- they'll show you. They'll go, "It is this big. That's how much I hate you going out to dinner." And that's actually the type of validation kids are looking for. Because for me, if I came home and I told my husband, like, I had some horrible day, I got fired, I, I don't know, like, horrible things happened, like, in my life, if he was just like, "Oh, that sounds bad," I'd be like, "No. Like, for- you don't understand," right? [laughs]

    2. MM

      Yeah.

    3. BK

      I'd be like, "No, no, no." And I would probably even escalate my expression because-

    4. MM

      Mm-hmm

    5. BK

      ... what I'd want him to say is, "Oh, that's not normal bad. That's, like, the worst day ever." And then I'd be like, "Okay, that's that connection."

    6. MM

      And even hearing you talk about that, he does use very angry sometimes. Like, he will try to let us know, and so we really have to acknowledge it, which I don't think we're doing. I think we're trying to bring him down versus acknowledging how he feels.

    7. AM

      We're definitely trying to bring him down.

    8. MM

      Yeah.

    9. AM

      We definitely acknowledge it, but we're not acknowledging the magnitude.

    10. MM

      Magnitude.

    11. AM

      He, he's-

    12. MM

      Correct

    13. AM

      ... one of the things that's kind of interesting is he's, as much as he struggles, he is good at expressing how he feels.

    14. MM

      Mm.

  10. 20:08 – 22:31

    A related struggle: refusing to join soccer due to fear of failure and overwhelm

    1. AM

      Like, he'll say, "I'm so frustrated right now," and he'll, like, draw out the so really far. Or, like, a- another thing that we struggle with a little bit is kinda, um, I don't think it's a separation anxiety, but, like, when we take him to soccer he'll just, like, refuse to play.

    2. MM

      Mm.

    3. AM

      'Cause I think he's worried that he's gonna, like, mess it up or he doesn't know how, 'cause he hasn't been doing it for a year and all the kids have sort of advanced while he was gone. And he'll say, "I f- like, I don't like how I feel right now. I don't wanna feel this way, but I don't know how to make it," so, you know, "stop."

    4. MM

      Mm.

    5. AM

      Like, he'll, like, he'll be very expressive, which I think helps.

    6. BK

      Yep.

    7. AM

      But it, but it, but when he gets triggered, when he get- which, you know, whether it's anxious or mad or upset, like, it's, like, pretty all-encompassing, which I assume is standard. Um, but it is more so with him than with our others.

    8. MM

      But it brings up another point, which is y- this is, this example that Adam spoke about is also been challenging, where we signed him up for a soccer league outside of school, so different set of friends, all outside. He did it when he was three. It's been two years since he's done it since.

    9. AM

      He loved it when he was three.

    10. BK

      Mm.

    11. MM

      And he, it's week five, we go on Monday, and he will not play.

    12. BK

      Mm.

    13. MM

      He has all of these emotions, and he, I think, is worried. I was trying to extract what was happening over the last five weeks, 'cause every week has sort of been-

    14. BK

      Yeah

    15. MM

      ... I've gotten him more information and we've just sat there. But he's feeling like he doesn't wanna fail.

    16. BK

      Mm.

    17. MM

      And he doesn't, he's not as comfortable with playing. He's not as much a- in the routine as the other f- kids, well, at least that he's observing. And he's having these intense emotions, and he's communicating, "I don't know why I'm feeling this way. I don't like it."

    18. BK

      Mm.

    19. MM

      "I don't know why I'm feeling this way." And in talking to him when he's not in that state, I'm getting more of, "I don't really know how to play. What if they don't like me?"

    20. BK

      Mm.

    21. MM

      "What if I mess up?"

    22. BK

      I feel like even though we're transitioning to another topic, there is this, this similarity. Like, when he feels something, like you said, it's just, like, it's so big, and it can freeze him in, like, whatever state he's in, and it's hard to, it's, like, a little hard to move on-

    23. MM

      Correct

    24. BK

      ... from that.

    25. AM

      Yeah.

    26. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    27. BK

      Exactly.

    28. AM

      Yeah, and there's something similar, I don't s- I mean, one is us leaving, one is him trying something new, so obviously it's different. But there's some, there's this, there's, like, a thread around, like, just being super anxious-

    29. BK

      Mm-hmm

    30. AM

      ... and nervous, uh, and it being just, like you said, just totally overwhelming. Like, he just gets consumed by it.

  11. 22:31 – 27:11

    Help him relate to feelings without being controlled by them: curiosity and ‘naive scientist’ mode

    1. BK

      So he's there saying to you, "I don't know why I'm feeling this way," right? Kind of, "I am, and I'm stuck," or some, "I'm frozen." He's kind of saying that, right? So one of the most powerful things I think we can say to our kids is some version of, "Sometimes we feel things and we have no idea why. And actually, sometimes we never figure out why, but it's still okay to feel that way. I believe you you feel that way, and we'll figure it out." More uncomfortable than any feeling is feeling alone in a feeling or feeling like you're judging that feeling, 'cause then you're actually adding elements to the feeling that make it sticky. The feel- feelings themselves are not sticky. It's the stuff we add to them. And sometimes the quest to, like, understand and figure it out and figure it out can actually almost be shameful, or it can just be overwhelming. And so I think there's some good, you know, experimenting. That's what I would say you can do. I, I'm talking about on the weekend, and I don't know if you do this anyway, but there's some narrative a lot of us have just bought into of, like, "Don't bring it up." Like, "Don't put those ideas in their head." Like, that's just not true, right? We don't put thoughts or feelings in our kid's head, and it's usually not talking about stuff that gives our kids problems, not talking about it in advance. So let's say it's Saturday. I'd be like, "Nico, I'm, I'm just thinking about soccer. I'm wondering if you're gonna have that feeling, the, like, we don't even know what to name it, but just everything feels bad, and you don't really wanna do it. Like, I just, I wonder if you'll have that." What, what would he say?

    2. MM

      "Yes, I hate soccer." [laughs]

    3. AM

      Yeah. [laughs] Very strong, very strong language.

    4. MM

      "I don't wanna go to soccer." Yeah.

    5. BK

      I'd, I'd push. I'd be like, "Interesting. It's so funny, I just called the I don't know what to call it. You're calling it the I hate soccer, I don't wanna go. I feel like there's still a lot to figure out about that feeling, but here's something I know. When it comes up," and here's that magnitude thing. I'd be like, "When it comes up, it's huge. It's, like, so big. It's, like, another one of those, like, whoa, really big feelings. When you feel it, it's almost like if the feeling had words, it would be saying to you, 'You can't do soccer while I'm here. You can't do soccer while I'm here.' It, like, tells you not to do soccer. And- It feels really, really bad. What I'm trying to do there is validate it and kind of get curious about it, but not insinuate that this feeling locks him into, like, any one set of actions. And even the idea that a feeling says something or that a feeling wants to make something happen, we're doing something so powerful. We're really doing an act of mindfulness, which is the idea that there's a Nico and then there's something happening inside him, right? So as soon as any of us can say to ourselves, "Oh, there's this thought," whatever it is, "There's this thought that I'm a bad parent," or, "There's that thought that I'm not doing a good job at work," the thoughts don't have the same power because we're noticing it instead of the thought kind of becoming us. And this is, like, the first step I would wanna be working on with him. And you being kind of like a naive scientist is just, like, a really good stance to take because it helps us look at things instead of judge them. You're just kind of data collecting, right? Um, and you could ask a number of questions on Saturday. When that feeling comes up on Monday, do you think it'll be as big as last Monday or the same or bigger? Let's just, like, make some predictions, and maybe he's like, "It'll be bigger." Oh, interesting. Like, so if it was at, like, here, like, is it gonna be here? If it's out of 10, is it gonna be like an 11? Is it gonna be like 100? If it was the size of, you know, a beach ball, is it now gonna be the size of a restaurant? Like, whatever language would help him. The questions don't matter, obviously. It really doesn't. But what you're doing is you're creating a way to engage around the feeling. You're actually creating movement, which is the opposite of what you said happens, which is like this feeling comes up, and it's just like game over. That's the thing we want to shift. The feeling freezes him versus something he can look at. So before I go further, tell me about how that might go on a weekend. Could you imagine playing around with that with him?

    6. MM

      Yeah, absolutely. I think using numbers and just giving him that way to describe his feelings I think would be helpful. I'm guessing he would say-

    7. AM

      I don't wanna talk about it.

    8. MM

      He-

    9. BK

      Okay

    10. MM

      ... he might say he didn't wanna talk about it.

    11. BK

      Great

    12. MM

      But if I catch him and he, and he's willing to say, he'll be like, he'll say-

    13. AM

      A billion

    14. MM

      ... that my anger is, like, a million or a billion.

    15. BK

      Great, and if he says that, this is what I would say back: "I am so glad you told me that because if it's that big, just going must feel really hard. No wonder you don't wanna go. It makes sense. Oh, wow, that is such a big number. I didn't know that until you told me. I'm so glad we're talking about this." I'm, I'm seriously just over and over just kind of connecting, connecting, connecting on it, connecting on it, which is the opposite of that kind of frozen everyone get away from me state. Now, if he says, "I don't wanna talk about it," that'll be perfectly

  12. 27:11 – 34:24

    Reduce aloneness through storytelling—and remove the power struggle by backing off outcomes

    1. BK

      normal. I'd be totally nonchalant. I'd be like, "Oh, that makes sense," 'cause, like, sometimes parents ask, like, really annoying things, you know? You know what's so weird? You know what I never told you? Did I ever tell you about the time blank? This is, like, one of my favorite strategies, and I, I hate to call it a strategy 'cause it feels too, like, clinical, and I think it's really helpful also in the separation anxiety kind of situation. Did I ever tell you about the time that I was in a drama class, and I was the lead. I was the lead, and then the next year, you're, you're never gonna guess what happened. You're n- you're never gonna guess the part I got. You're never gonna guess it. Do you think I got the lead? And he's gonna be like, I don't know, "No," right? And I'd be like, "I did it, and I didn't wanna go." So essentially what we're doing is we're solving for the aloneness. Like, we, we always wanna solve for the aloneness, and one of the things I'm often trying to think about is, like, the idea of de-shaming your house, which [laughs] I'm like a constantly. Shame is the experience of feeling alone, and if kids feel alone in something, they actually feel unconnectable. And going back to you use the word attachment, attachment's what is, like, the prime evolutionary force for kids. They need to attach, and so if they feel unconnectable and alone, they do freeze in an animal defense state because it's actually, like, non-conducive to survival. So we always want to be helping our kids feel less alone. And it's obvious to us, oh, I've not wanted to join things. Like, oh, I have felt not good at things. But if we're not actually sharing those stories with our kids, they have no reason to believe those things have ever happened because our kids, and I'm gonna venture to say this about your kids especially, you two seem like extremely capable, smart, successful people. Is that, like, a okay thing to say out loud?

    2. MM

      We appreciate that.

    3. AM

      Hanging on by a thread. [laughs]

    4. MM

      Yeah, right. Yeah, we appreciate that. Sure. [laughs] We'll take it. We'll take it.

    5. AM

      We'll take it though.

    6. BK

      But I don't mean it as a compliment. I didn't mean that. It, it worked. [laughs]

    7. MM

      [laughs] Yeah.

    8. BK

      You might not appreciate it. It works against us, right? Like, he- I don't know how many times he's been like, "Ugh, I just remember my dad being plagued with anxiety, and he can't even leave the house. I just remember my mom being plagued by uncertainty and feeling worse than everyone at something she does. Yep, that's all around me." And so if that feels like a solitary experience, and no one else has ever been in that position, then he's gonna get that much more frozen, forget because the feeling feels bad, just because he feels so alone in that.

    9. MM

      Different, yeah.

    10. BK

      So different.

    11. MM

      Yeah.

    12. BK

      And then so bad.

    13. MM

      Yeah.

    14. BK

      Right? And-

    15. MM

      Yeah

    16. BK

      ... I can't even tell you with my kids, like, they will come up to me, and they'll be like... Like, my daughter will fall on the sidewalk and skin her knee, and she'll be like, "Did you ever, when you were my age, fall and skin your knee while walking on Broadway?" You know, like, like, and I was like, "Yeah."

    17. AM

      [laughs]

    18. BK

      "I, I ac- I can't believe I didn't tell you that. I, I did." But they're really just saying, like, "Am I good? Am I lovable?"

    19. MM

      Right.

    20. BK

      [laughs] Am I okay-

    21. MM

      Right

    22. BK

      ... having this experience? And so I would share that, and then building off that, he needs to feel like you're uninvested in his joining soccer, and that's hard to do. So you're gonna have to fake it because, like-

    23. MM

      Oh, boy, yeah

    24. BK

      ... yep, yeah.

    25. AM

      Yeah. [laughs]

    26. MM

      I gotta pivot. It's okay. I can do this.

    27. AM

      [laughs]

    28. BK

      But you, you-

    29. MM

      Yeah

    30. BK

      ... have to be uninvested because the last thing we wanna do is take a situation that's hard and now add a power struggle to it, where if now his not joining soccer is a way to define himself, w- we don't win because- Kids at all age are trying to figure out who they are separate from their parents. So if they can not do soccer as a way of saying, "Oh, I really do know I'm my own person," like, it's just gonna be frustrating for everyone. So I think you wanna give him-

  13. 34:24 – 37:04

    Wrap-up: three takeaways for separation and resilience

    1. BK

      Thank you, Adam and Monica, for sharing so much about what's going on in your home, and for allowing us to explore different dynamics around separation. Let's tie it all together with three takeaways. One, keep your goodbyes short. We actually wanna spend a lot of time exploring separation dynamics, and practicing how to say bye, and speaking to underlying fears. And when the moment comes to say goodbye, do your routine, don't linger, and then leave and project confidence. Two, when kids struggle to separate or join something, remind yourself, "My goal isn't to help my child get out of a feeling. It's to help my child tolerate the feeling." Three, let's help our kids feel less alone in their struggles. When our kids feel less alone and more connected, all feelings become more manageable. You can help your kid feel less alone through storytelling, so talk to your child about moments you had a hard time separating when you were younger, or about your hesitation in saying goodbye. This helps a child build resilience during difficult moments. [gentle music] Thanks for listening to Good Inside. There are so many more strategies and tips I wanna share with you. Head to goodinside.com and sign up for Good Insider, my free weekly email with scripts and strategies delivered right to your inbox. And follow me on Instagram and Facebook, @drbeckyatgoodinside, for a daily dose of parenting and self-care ideas. Good Inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Beth Rowe and Marie Cecile Anderson, and executive produced by Erica Belsky and me, Dr. Becky. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review it, or share this episode with a friend or family member as a way to start an important conversation. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves, even as I struggle, and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 37:13

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