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Good Inside with Dr. BeckyGood Inside with Dr. Becky

Navigating Your Kids' Friendships

As parents there are certain things we can control: what's served for dinner, how much screen time is allowed, or when bedtime is. But who our kids are friends with is not one of them. So what's a parent to do when their kid is friends with someone they don't particularly like and who isn't the greatest influence? On today's episode, Dr. Becky talks with a parent about how to handle tricky friendship dynamics. Join Good Inside Membership: bit.ly/3ItlQaz Follow Dr. Becky on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drbeckyatgoodinside Sign up for our weekly email, Good Insider: https://www.goodinside.com/newsletter Order Dr. Becky's book, Good Inside: A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be, at goodinside.com/book or wherever you order your books. Today’s episode is brought to you by Cerebelly: Cerebelly is baby food with 16 key nutrients that nourish a growing brain. Cerebelly’s organic, non-GMO recipes include vegetables as the main ingredient and offer nutrients that are matched to your child’s developmental stage. Cerebelly is Clean Label Project Certified, meaning they’ve been rigorously tested for over 400 heavy metals and toxins. Use the code GOODINSIDE for 20% off your first order and get an additional 15% off when you sign up for subscribe & save at cerebelly.com

Dr. BeckyhostParent (unnamed)guest
Feb 28, 202331mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:58

    The core dilemma: close-knit neighborhood, one “bad influence” friendship

    1. BE

      I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. I'm a clinical psychologist, I'm a mom of three, and I'm on a mission to rethink the way we raise our children.

    2. P(

      So, uh, I have, I have two children. The issue I'm dealing with in particular is with my six-year-old, and we've lived in this neighborhood for a couple of years now, and she has just entered public school, and we're, we're really lucky because we are surrounded by several houses with a lot of young families and kids who are the same age or of a similar age, and it has turned out to be a really close-knit group of kids. The issue that I am struggling with is that there is one family in particular, two girls, who I don't, [laughs] I don't like the influence that they have on my daughter. I don't like the way that they play. And so I'm struggling with, I guess, two things, which is, you know, how to guide my daughter in being friendly and being nice, but also not kind of taking on the behaviors she's learning from these girls. A- and also, you know, how to navigate the situation as a parent too, and not completely ostracize our family from this very tight-knit group of neighbors who don't all seem to have the same issues that we do with-

    3. BE

      Hmm

    4. P(

      ... with these particular kids.

    5. BE

      That is tricky.

    6. P(

      Yeah.

    7. BE

      And, and I know is something s- [laughs] most of us parents can relate to, right? And I love how you outlined a couple things there. Like, okay, well, how do I help my kid navigate it? Okay, how do I navigate it, because it also impacts my life, right?

    8. P(

      Correct.

    9. BE

      And what's this balance of, uh, you know, boundaries, and flexibility, and, you know, what's okay? One-on-ones, is that not okay? In a group it is okay. How do we talk about it after? What do I say to the other families? It's, it's, it's complicated, especially when you all live right there.

    10. P(

      Completely. Completely.

  2. 1:58 – 3:45

    What specifically feels unsafe or unacceptable about this child’s behavior

    1. BE

      Huh. Okay. So, uh, so just a few more details before we jump in further. Like the not liking their influence. Is this, you know, they wanna play with dolls and your daughter wants to do blocks? Is this, like, they are hurting your child when they are together in emotional or physical ways? Just, just describe it a little bit more.

    2. P(

      Yeah. So, so there's, there's two kids and it's... unfortunately it's also really the older sister in the situation too. The younger one I have less of an issue with, but the older one is very influential, of course, over her sister and over my daughter too, because she's a little bit older, a year or two older. And she's incredibly disrespectful to adults, which is the first thing that I have a hard time with. She calls her parents by their first names. She's very demanding when she's, you know, in our house or in our yard, doesn't, you know, doesn't use great manners and-

    3. BE

      Like, "Anne, get me water." Like that?

    4. P(

      That has actually happened, yes. That has, yes. We've actually had that actual, uh, interaction before. And also, she's very sort of destructive and violent in the way that she plays, and I've, I've witnessed it also in the presence of my toddler as well. And this, this was in our backyard and I said, "You know, I really don't want you playing that way in front of my little one. She's two. She doesn't understand." And this girl said back to me, "Well, she's gonna have to learn someday." [laughs] And-

    5. BE

      Hmm.

    6. P(

      Yeah. And it, and she's, she's really sort of destructive with toys, so it's one of those things too where I always have to kind of caution my daughter, "Don't bring your things out there if you don't want them to get broken or dirty," because there's, like a almost a purposeful lack of, of respect or regard for other people's things, um, and feelings. And so it's, it's really hard for me to sit and watch that all kind of transpire because I can see what's gonna happen, and it usually does. Yeah.

    7. BE

      So, okay, my, my brain is full of different ideas.

    8. P(

      [laughs]

  3. 3:45 – 4:47

    Reframing the “bad kid”: empathy + boundaries can coexist

    1. BE

      The first thing I wanna say is, just because it'll, w- won't be our focus, but I wanna say it, is I feel for this child. Like, I feel for that, that kid, and how, and how out of control she must feel to not have boundaries that actually keep her emotionally, even physically, safe. And when this is not our own kid, it's not exactly our responsibility to, you know, set those boundaries. But also, I think one of the things we'll talk about is how actually you can set boundaries in a really clear way with your own kids, and definitely even around this child if she's in your house or playing with your kids. And actually how that's a really important message, I think when done in a certain way to your kids, it's actually a really hopeful message to her too in terms of, like, there are people who will help you, so you don't really wrap your identity around being such a destructive, quote, "bad kid," because she's not. And, um, I just wanna name that before we, we g- we move forward, right?

    2. P(

      Yeah.

  4. 4:47 – 7:13

    Scripts for disrespect: setting house rules without shaming

    1. BE

      Okay. Let's just start with this. "Anne, get me water." Right? Like, these things that happen in your home that, you know, are said directly to you or directly around you. Like, w- what might happen the next time she says something like that? Like, what, what's going on for you in that moment? How are you feeling? What might you say back? What would be the easiest or most natural thing to do?

    2. P(

      Yeah. I mean, it's, that's really tough for me because I know if it's my own child, I would say, "You need to say please. You need to rephrase that." You know? And, and she would, instantly.

    3. BE

      Uh-huh.

    4. P(

      But I have a hard time when it's someone else's child correcting their manners or correcting-

    5. BE

      Yeah

    6. P(

      ... their behavior, because it feels out of line even though it's, you know, at my own home.

    7. BE

      And you are not alone in that conflict. So I just wanna model something where, to me, it, it is possible to come up with these, like, m- m- a multiplicity of wins, where we're honoring our own values, we're helping our kids, and we're also, you know, kind of like respecting or seeing really the good inside, you know, a child, whether it's ours or another child who's kind of acting up in this way. So here's words that come to mind for me.

    8. P(

      Okay.

    9. BE

      You know, "That's not how we talk to people in this house. Look, I, I know you're a good kid, and I know you can find another way to ask me for that." So I'm just gonna pause, 'cause it's not like I expect this child to say Wow, thank you for seeing me in this way, and like, that feels so warm, and yes, actually, I'm sorry, can you please get me water? And I'm gonna start speaking that way all the time. Like, that's not gonna happen. Let's just put that out there. [laughs]

    10. P(

      Exactly. [laughs]

    11. BE

      Right? But there, there are a lot of messages, I think, with this. Number one, you're holding a boundary that you feel is important in your own home. Number two, it's not just forcing a kid. I actually think this is a better way even to respond to our own kids and say, "I kn-," you know, "You have to say please and thank you," 'cause then we're just slapping on surface level manners instead of doing what I think probably is more powerful even for them changing over time, which is naming something that's not okay, seeing them as a good kid under this rude behavior, and then giving a different set of expectations, you know, to kind of bring that good inside to the outside in how you make a request. And you're actually doing all of that. Like, I feel like you're respecting yourself, you're maintaining to your own kids the level of expectations you have, and I would argue, as like a bonus, I- I think you're giving something powerful to this other child, right? And I think there's a lot of extensions of that, right?

    12. P(

      Yeah.

  5. 7:13 – 8:18

    Intervening in rough play: be the barrier, protect both kids

    1. BE

      So you have a kid at your house who are always knocking down towers, and your kid's like, "Stop knocking down my towers," and she's like, "I don't care, I'm knock-," you know, something like that. Again, I think step one is us embodying our authority in setting a boundary. I'm not gonna let you continue to knock over towers. And honestly, I wouldn't let my kid continue to knock over your towers if you didn't like it either. So it seems like you want to knock things down. I'm gonna stand between you and my child, and if you wanna build your own block tower and knock it down over and over, you can do that to the side. And again, it's like I am stepping in first. I am protecting both kids. Like, I always feel like when we think about protecting kids, we think about protecting the kid who's, quote, the victim. I always think, like, the kid who's the seeming aggressor also needs protection from feeling like a bad kid. So I'm protecting everyone. So before we go further, like, tell me, tell me your thoughts about that, and maybe especially, and tell me what it would be like for you to, like, embody your authority in that way. We don't talk to people that way. I'm not gonna let you do that.

  6. 8:18 – 10:03

    The parent’s fear: becoming ‘the strict house’ and social backlash

    1. P(

      Yeah. You know, I, I like that idea, and I feel like I have done that in some of the instances where she sort of modeled violent behavior or violent play in front of my little one. I haven't thought about doing it in some of the simpler things like manners, um, and things like that. I think where I do get nervous is sort of when it comes back to the parents and what-

    2. BE

      Yeah

    3. P(

      ... you know, and what, what gets said when they go home because-

    4. BE

      Yeah

    5. P(

      ... you know, we're-

    6. BE

      So play that out

    7. P(

      ... geographically very close.

    8. BE

      She goes home.

    9. P(

      Yeah. [laughs]

    10. BE

      She goes home, and what, what's the worry? 'Cause knowing, like, playing out our worries are, are important, right?

    11. P(

      Yes.

    12. BE

      'Cause they then, our worries, when we don't play them out, just dictate what we do.

    13. P(

      Yeah.

    14. BE

      Right? So let's differentiate. So what are you worried might happen?

    15. P(

      I think that I'm worried that we're going to become the house or the parents that no one el- you know, the, that we're the strict kind of annoying parents on the block that no one wants to, they're, none of the kids wanna play there, and I'm afraid it's gonna reflect on my daughter more than anything.

    16. BE

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    17. P(

      That she's gonna get ostracized. I worry for her because she's really found this kind of group and loves it, but, um, the parents are pretty close, and we aren't yet.

    18. BE

      Got it. So my, my image, and tell me if this is right, is this girl's mother might say to another mom like, "Oh, do you hear Anne? Like, oh, she's like so strict with the kids."

    19. P(

      Precisely. [laughs]

    20. BE

      "She yells at other kids." Uh, and there's kind of like a joint eye roll, and then, you know, kind of plans are getting made, and all of a sudden there's fewer calls to you-

    21. P(

      Yes

    22. BE

      ... or you say, "Oh, I'll have the kids over at my house," and they're like, "Yes, actually, sorry, like, we're busy," or, or things like that.

    23. P(

      100%. That's what I worry about because from where I sit, it doesn't seem like the other parents are having the same experience that I am with-

    24. BE

      Yeah

    25. P(

      ... these kids in particular.

  7. 10:03 – 12:41

    Values vs. approval: the hidden cost of staying quiet

    1. BE

      And so a couple things that are coming to my mind now. So number one, I think it's just even if the worry persists, which it will, right? Our worries do persist. I just wanna name the difference between other parents don't seem to have the same issues-

    2. P(

      Mm-hmm

    3. BE

      ... and other parents wouldn't want to have their kids come to my house if I responded in a certain way to these issues. So those are two very different things, and I just think it's helpful, like, to even take our hands and be like, "Different things." In a way, a parent could hear about this and be like, "Oh, I don't want my kid to go to Anne's house. That sounds annoying." In theory, a parent could hear about this and be like, "Wow, sounds like Anne's really on top of the things that go on at her house. That's kinda cool, and maybe I wanna send my kids to her more often." You know, I don't know. [laughs]

    4. P(

      [laughs]

    5. BE

      Someone, look, someone's looking after my kids. That's pretty nice.

    6. P(

      That's also true.

    7. BE

      You know?

    8. P(

      Yeah.

    9. BE

      But a- and I'm not trying to say that's more likely. We never know.

    10. P(

      Mm-hmm.

    11. BE

      But I just think it's, it's helpful when we have a worry to, to come up with something alternative-

    12. P(

      Yeah

    13. BE

      ... just to realize, wait, I'm kind of locked in my worry as a truth, but there's actually other options here, too. So, you know, what, what you're also talking about here, which I think happens a lot in social situations, is this, I don't know, seeming conflict between, like, what feels right to me and what are in line with my values, and how are other people gonna react to that?

    14. P(

      Yeah.

    15. BE

      And I do feel in general like we worry more about how acting in line with our values will push people away-

    16. P(

      Mm-hmm

    17. BE

      ... than actually happens, 'cause I think we also don't think about, well, what's the cost of not acting in line with my values, both to myself, but also, just to put it out there, there could be a group of moms who talk, and they're like, "Wow, I can't believe all this, all this stuff Anne lets happen at her house. Like, did you see the way the kids were out of control and, like, she just did nothing? Oh, I don't, I don't want my kids to go to her house," right? Like, that could happen in a couple months, too.

    18. P(

      Yeah.

    19. BE

      You know, I, I, I don't think there's, like, an easy solution here i- in terms of that, that dynamic, but, but what I would say is I think our kids pick up on when we're uncomfortable with something and don't do something about it.

    20. P(

      Yeah.

    21. BE

      And I don't think that feel, I don't think that feels great to them.

    22. P(

      Mm-mm.

    23. BE

      And your kids also then kind of store, wow, like, these things keep happening. ... with this other child, and no one seems to stop it. And then I think sometimes they take it a step further into like, "I guess this is what I should expect," or, "I guess this is just what I have to put up with." And I know from your calling in that that's definitely not what you want-

    24. P(

      Right

    25. BE

      ... from your kids.

    26. P(

      That's right. Yeah.

    27. BE

      Or for your kids.

    28. P(

      Mm-hmm.

  8. 12:41 – 13:48

    How the child responds: looking to the parent for guidance

    1. BE

      So I wanna talk also a little bit about how your kids react.

    2. P(

      Mm-hmm.

    3. BE

      So what happens when you witness them, you know, the equivalent of getting their tower knocked over, getting things taken, or things broken? Like, if we were just observers, w- what do your kids do in those situations?

    4. P(

      When it's happened, she's often come back to me to look for the response, basically.

    5. BE

      Mm-hmm.

    6. P(

      You know, the, the time when the other girl took a Barbie and just threw it in the dirt just because, and she brought it in and was sort of like, "What do I do?" And, you know, "Look what she did." And I was kind of at a loss, you know? I just, uh... You know, I think I decided we control what we can control, and I said, "If you have things that are special to you or important to you, you can't bring them out then when you're playing with, with this girl." Um, but I think that's really hard, too, when it's okay with all the other kids but not with this one in particular. I don't know that I was fully articulating or even know how to articulate, you know, what the difference is here, and I didn't say anything to the other girl. It was mostly just about what my daughter could do to protect her-

    7. BE

      Yeah

    8. P(

      ... things.

  9. 13:48 – 17:21

    Build the foundation: helping kids name what they like and don’t like

    1. BE

      And what would your daughter say if you asked her, "Oh, what was that like for you when she did that?" What do you think your daughter would say?

    2. P(

      I think she would say, "I was sad, and I, and I didn't understand why she did it. There was no reason for it to happen. She just did it, and I don't know why."

    3. BE

      And if you pushed it, like, kind of another level and said, "Did you like that she did that to your doll?" what would your daughter say?

    4. P(

      Absolutely not. She would not be happy about it.

    5. BE

      And I think this is really important in peer relationships, and I guess I'm slightly biased to say it's especially important with girls-

    6. P(

      Yes

    7. BE

      ... to add in something like, "That's really important-

    8. P(

      Mm-hmm

    9. BE

      ... that you know what you like and don't like with other people.

    10. P(

      Mm-hmm.

    11. BE

      And you know you didn't like when she took your Barbie and rubbed it in the dirt." And I don't know, I picture your daughter just kind of, like, nodding. She's not gonna say anything profound.

    12. P(

      Right.

    13. BE

      Like, "Thank you for setting me up for self-confidence," you know? Like, she's definitely not gonna say that. But I think that's really important. And, and while I think it's also important to help our kids learn skills, "Okay, well, what would you say to this kid? What are you gonna do next time?" I, I actually think all of that is secondary-

    14. P(

      Mm-hmm

    15. BE

      ... to helping our kids recognize, like [laughs] what they like and don't like, what they're comfortable with and not comfortable with, and building kind of real strength around recognizing what does and does not sit well with them in relationship with others. And I think if there were other kids around, and you have an amazing opportunity to build that skill further and say, "You know what's really cool about you? It seems like the other kids were laughing, or the other kids didn't mind that they did that with their dolls. And it- I actually think it's really cool about you that you know what you like and don't like, even when other people don't agree with you."

    16. P(

      Yeah.

    17. BE

      Tell me your reaction to hearing that. I don't know. I think [laughs] sometimes I think about the word-

    18. P(

      [laughs]

    19. BE

      ... and like, "Oh, I could have used to hear that."

    20. P(

      [laughs]

    21. BE

      Wow, that, that feels healing to my inner child.

    22. P(

      [laughs]

    23. BE

      I don't know about if that's at all similar with your... Did you ever hear words like that when you were a kid?

    24. P(

      You know, yeah. I, I did, actually. I, I do remember my dad in particular sort of guiding me through some really challen- more when I was probably in, like, middle school age, but guiding me through some challenging friendship times there. And I do remember standing up for myself in a way that sort of, I think it did ostracize me for a minute, but I can still remember it, and I feel kind of proud about, you know, standing up for myself in situations that didn't feel great with other girls. And I think, you know, my daughter is, she's young, but she's got a lot of big feelings. And so I think that she might be a little mad at me at first, but I think that it's one of those things where once she kind of internalizes it, it probably would be really empowering for her to feel that way.

    25. BE

      Because remember, like, empowering our kids to trust and name their feelings, actually, first of all, is very different from empowering them to act in any one way.

    26. P(

      Right.

    27. BE

      And actually, I'd argue that the strongest, most resilient, most kind of sturdy but also grounded, right, 'cause there's a groundedness to when you're sturdy, right? You're not reactive. You just, like, feel like you have your feet on the ground, and you can express yourself. That comes from recognizing and trusting your emotions.

    28. P(

      Yeah.

    29. BE

      So kids who are like, "I know I don't like that," those kids are much less likely to hit or to allow it to happen. They're more likely, probably in a social situation, to say, "I don't like when you do that. I'm not gonna play near you when I have my Barbies if you do that again."

    30. P(

      Yeah.

  10. 17:21 – 19:47

    From coaching to curiosity: ‘I wonder what you could do next time’

    1. BE

      Exactly. And I think, I think two things. So first, I think when we see our kids in uncomfortable social situations, and we think about, like, how we want them to respond, we skip an important step. We go right to, "You can say this-

    2. P(

      Mm-hmm

    3. BE

      ... to this person," instead of, "Well, what's going on for you, and what do you say to yourself when that happens?"

    4. P(

      Yeah.

    5. BE

      And so when she practices with you saying, "I don't like that. Yeah, Mom, no, I didn't like that, and I know I didn't like that," I think a step after could be, "You know, when you're playing with someone, and you don't like something, you can always pause or even step away and just say to yourself, 'I know I didn't like that, and I can trust that, or I can trust myself.'" Because I think actually when kids say that to themselves, they naturally end up saying the right words to other kids. Maybe they need a little bit of modeling from us or role play, right? But ironically, when we go right to, "So say to the other girl, 'Don't do that to my Barbie,'" we miss all the dynamics and the anxiety and the, "Oh, am I right to feel this way? Am I wrong to feel this way? But no one else is feeling this way. Am I overreacting?" We miss the foundational skill that's necessary to stand up to other kids.

    6. P(

      Right.

    7. BE

      And I imagine you talking to your daughter- ... after, after this, not in the moment. Yeah, you, okay, and she says, "I, I yeah, I didn't like that." And then I can imagine taking that next step and saying, "Hmm, I wonder what you could do the next time you're with this girl," or you're with anyone, actually, and something happens that you don't like. What might you do? And then I think there's something to this, and I'm gonna model it for you. Hmm. Hmm, I wonder. And actually, you can see me. No one listening to the podcast can see me, but, like, I'm, like, looking up to the side as if I really don't know. Because the truth is, I don't know. There's not one right way. But validating what's happening for our kids, and then wondering with them about actions they might take, to me, is how we help kids feel comfortable, and then actually come up with solutions that they actually originate. What, what might she say? Or what... And, and, and if you're like, "Becky, she'd just, like, walk away and be like, 'I don't know, Mom. You're being weird,'" that, that's perfectly valid, too.

    8. P(

      [laughs]

    9. BE

      What might she say? I wonder what you can do the next time something like that happens.

    10. P(

      She'd probably go right to a, you know, "I don't like that," or, "Please don't do that." I don't know if she would actually have, like, the guts to do it in that group-

    11. BE

      Uh-huh

    12. P(

      ... setting, but I think-

    13. BE

      Yeah

    14. P(

      ... with me at least, that's what she would, what she would say she'd want to do, for sure.

  11. 19:47 – 22:29

    Practice reps at home: role-play low-stakes so kids can perform under stress

    1. BE

      Great. So then, a- and look, and this is not something I do in one conversation.

    2. P(

      [laughs] Right.

    3. BE

      We all, me too, I'm like, "But I have these minutes. I'm gonna get it all in."

    4. P(

      Right.

    5. BE

      It's very overwhelming, right? But I don't know, I could see playing with my child the next day, and maybe again, I'm, I don't know, I'm playing with blocks, and I say, "Ooh, what if I knocked over your tower right now?" And I look at her, and, like, there's a play to this, right?

    6. P(

      Mm-hmm.

    7. BE

      And she'd be like, "I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it, okay, honey? Okay." And I would. I'd, like, knock it down, right? Where we kind of set it up. Say, "Ooh, did you like that?" And probably my child would be like, "No, I, I d- I..." [laughs] And now, let me be clear. If my child just built some, like, amazing Lego tower-

    8. P(

      [laughs]

    9. BE

      ... I'm not so sadistic that I'd be like, "I'm gonna knock over your Lego tower." Like, no, there's, there's [laughs] there's lower lift ways. But, like, maybe we could even practice that. Let's build a little tower. I'm gonna knock it over. Oh, you didn't like that, okay. What might you wanna say to me? And then maybe she says to you, "I didn't like that." And I say, "Oh. Oh. Okay, well, I guess that makes sense you didn't like that. I, I wouldn't really like that either," you know? Something like that. You're almost, like, building, like, what I call, like, I feel like you're building a rep.

    10. P(

      Yeah.

    11. BE

      You know? Like-

    12. P(

      Yeah

    13. BE

      ... you've gotten practice in the, in the gym, you know? All right, because I think none of us use new skills first in high-stress situations.

    14. P(

      True. Right. Yeah.

    15. BE

      None of us.

    16. P(

      No.

    17. BE

      Right? It's, it's why people, you know, practice soccer not, you know, during the World Cup.

    18. P(

      [laughs]

    19. BE

      They practice and practice-

    20. P(

      Right

    21. BE

      ... so that they are slightly better during the World Cup, right?

    22. P(

      Yeah.

    23. BE

      And it, it really is. This is like a World Cup situation. You have an older kid, you're in the neighborhood, there's things that happen, like, okay, that is high stress. The game is on the line. So giving her opportunities to practice with you-

    24. P(

      Mm-hmm

    25. BE

      ... is so powerful, 'cause even if she doesn't say it at this age, we know that this feels important now, not for this girl in the neighborhood. It feels important for when she's in middle school, in high school, for when she's in her 30s.

    26. P(

      Yeah.

    27. BE

      And you want her to say in some higher stakes situation, "Yeah, I don't like that, and I trust myself, and I need you to stop." And actually reminding ourselves what my kid says to this other child is actually less important than the skills and practice I'm allowing my child to have with me for higher stake situations in the future, I think gives us a little relief to be like, "Okay, right. My child didn't fail."

    28. P(

      Yes.

    29. BE

      They're building skills outside that moment.

    30. P(

      Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, and, and that's certainly a skill I would like her to have before-- I know that our most challenging friendship years are still ahead of us for her-

  12. 22:29 – 25:24

    Why the friendship persists: understand what ‘works’ for your child

    1. BE

      And I, and I have one more thought on this that I think is a really general thought, but definitely applies here, is I often think when we see a behavior in our kid that we kinda wanna change, right, I, I feel like my child w- would wanna stand up for themselves, or would wanna play with different kids, or whatever it is. We often miss thinking, like, but what about this behavior is working for my child? There must be something working about playing with a child who's not that nice, because if it wasn't working, my child would've already stopped playing. They would've said, "Mom, don't make me play with that child anymore."

    2. P(

      Right.

    3. BE

      And I think that this step of, okay, wait, something's working, and I actually need to connect to my child to understand that part, is the foundation for shifting in a slightly different direction. So I, I might separately just say to my child, "You know, it's kinda tricky. I know there's things about playing with her that you don't like, and we've talked about some of those, and even practiced how it might feel better to you. And, and here's something interesting. There's something about playing with her, and even maybe staying quiet when she takes some of your stuff, that, like, it probably feels, I don't know, is it, is it better or even safer, easier? And, and that's okay. And, and we can understand that together." And, and I think kids really need to hear that, or even hear, "Hey, what do you like about playing with her?" Right? We, we think so much like, oh, we'd say, "You don't like, we shouldn't have to have play dates with this kid, and this girl's mean to you. Why do you still want to invite her to your birthday party?" Instead of actually starting with, "There's something about this girl that's, you know, kind of compelling," or, "There's something about this girl you like," or, "There's something about not inviting this girl to your birthday party that you must be worried about. Let me actually understand that first. What might happen?" Right? And, and probably, Anne, it's not that dissimilar to what you struggled with, which is, I don't know, maybe if I stand up for myself, people won't like me or-

    4. P(

      Right

    5. BE

      ... people will laugh at me. And just being able to say back to a kid, "I get it."

    6. P(

      Mm-hmm.

    7. BE

      Or if they can't articulate a reason, just being able to say, "You know, it's tricky. I know it's always nice to have people to play with, and sometimes we worry when we stand up to people Then no one will wanna play with us. And if that's happening for you, I would get it. I have a feeling that would be really helpful for your daughter to hear from you as well.

    8. P(

      I agree. I agree.

    9. BE

      And even be able to say to her, "You know, I worry about those things, too."

    10. P(

      Yeah.

    11. BE

      Like, even as an adult, do you know that? I worry about that, too. And actually talking about the things we're worried about really helps because we can actually make better decisions when we share our worries with other people. Anything else around this that's, you know, kind of top of mind? Or is one last, like, ah, Becky, I can't get off the phone without asking you this one last thing about it?

  13. 25:24 – 29:58

    Navigating the parents: choose what you can live with + a ‘same team’ conversation option

    1. P(

      I mean, I guess any advice on navigating the parents. I think that that, you know, sort of separate from the, the girls together, um, I struggle with that, too. You know, we have a cordial relationship. We don't know them super well. Um, you know, we're friendly and we wave and say hello, but that's really the extent of it. And so I kind of don't know how to navigate a relationship with them because I'm trying to keep my daughter at arm's length from theirs a lot of the time, so it feels uncomfortable a lot of the time for me in social situations with them.

    2. BE

      Yeah. Look, I think it feels uncomfortable with anyone when we're not naming something that feels so big and true to us.

    3. P(

      Yeah.

    4. BE

      It, it, it does. It feels like we see this elephant and-

    5. P(

      Yes. [laughs]

    6. BE

      ... you know, you seem like someone, you like to be close with someone. You like to be honest with someone. So when you have this thing that is big for you and you don't even name it, it just feels super awkward. I don't think there's a right answer, and I think that's just important to say because it's not necessarily right to say, "I'm gonna sit these parents down and say this," and it's not necessarily right to, you know, avoid that, too. I think the thing that would guide me, like, everything is like, what, what can I live with?

    7. P(

      Yes.

    8. BE

      Like, what is just gonna be the thing that feels better for me? And I could see doing either and saying, "Okay, I'm just not really gonna say something for a myriad of reasons. I don't think it's gonna be so productive, and I'm gonna instead center my kid and center their experience. And when I'm around, maybe I'm gonna be out there a little bit closer-

    9. P(

      Mm-hmm

    10. BE

      ... when they're playing, so I can watch, so I can step in. Oh, I'm not gonna let you grab her Barbie again," right? Like, I'm gonna stop that, but that does not involve the parents. I could also, just based on various factors, right? Imagine sitting down with that other parent and saying, "Look, I wanna talk about something that I know is tricky and, you know, still, it just seems important, and I value honesty, and I, I actually feel like this could be something that makes us closer to, like, talk honestly about it, but I'm definitely nervous, so I'm just naming that upfront." And then maybe saying, "Look, we both have good kids. Like, let me just say that from the front. I have good kids. You have good kids, too, and sometimes things happen when our kids play, and maybe you think things happen from my kids that I don't know about. I'm totally open to hearing that in another conversation. I wanted to let you know that sometimes things have happened where I've had to step in because it seems like, you know, your daughter's desire to play with an item that my kids are having or play with it in a way that seems to feel fun to her, but really doesn't feel fun to my girls, has gotten to situations that really don't end up feeling so great. For example," you know, if you wanna share an example of what that happens. "And I just wanna let you know that when I'm around them, like, I'm probably gonna step in a little bit more. I actually think it's not only helpful for my kids, I think it's helpful for your kids, too, because I can't imagine it feels that great to play with something in a way that another child is upset about. And I don't know. I just, I don't know if you have any more information about this, but just thought we could, you know, talk it out knowing that we both want kind of the same things for our kids and our families." So I think, like, the framework that would inform that way of talking is, like, we're really all on the same team. We're on the same team in fighting the problem of not great situations that happen when our kids play together. This is not me against the parent. It's not even me against that kid. It's me and the parent against not so great unsafe play situations. And I think, you know, when we're talking to someone about something where there's a conflict, I think what someone's always assessing is like, "Are you saying I'm a bad person? Do you think I'm a bad person?" Do-- And, and as soon as they smell it, then they react in a, quote, "defensive way" 'cause they're defending their inherent goodness, which we all need to defend. And so I think often peppering in things like, "We both have good kids," peppering in, "I think we're on the same team here," peppering in, "I think we're working toward the same goal," it, it just is a reminder of that framework-

    11. P(

      Yeah

    12. BE

      ... and tends to increase the likelihood of a productive conversation.

    13. P(

      Thank you. That, that's helpful. I mean, and, and I don't have a friendship with them, so I know there isn't a whole lot to lose at this point, too. So I think that if I could be a little more honest about that, that it probably could help at least make me feel better about the situation, I think.

    14. BE

      Yeah. A- and I think, right, we know behavior is different from identity. This kid probably needs some help.

    15. P(

      Yes.

    16. BE

      And so just naming up front like, "Yeah, I know you have a good kid," or, "I know these conversations are hard. I trust our ability to, like, talk through something that's tricky because, you know, I, I think we both agree that it's just nice to be, like, honest in our developing friendship and relationship." There's a lot of generosity of spirit there.

    17. P(

      Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes sense. That makes sense.

  14. 29:58 – 31:31

    Closing: resources, membership plug, and ‘good inside’ reminder

    1. BE

      Well, thank you for sharing all this, and so relatable and so helpful to jump into it, really.

    2. P(

      Thank you. I appreciate your help.

    3. BE

      Thanks for listening. To share a story or ask me a question, go to goodinside.com/podcast. You could also write me at podcast@goodinside.com. Parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world, and parents deserve resources and support so they feel empowered, confident, and connected. I'm so excited to share Good Inside Membership, the first platform that brings together content and experts you trust with a global community of like-valued parents. It's totally game-changing. Good Inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Nuzum at Magnificent Noise. Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhi, Julia Natt, and Kristin Mueller. I would also like to thank Erica Belsky, Mary Panico, Ashley Valenzuela, and the rest of the Good Inside team. And one last thing before I let you go. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves, even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside. [outro music]

Episode duration: 31:37

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