Parenting Teens While Navigating Perimenopause: One Mom’s Honest Story

1. 0:00 – 1:10

   When puberty and perimenopause collide: “stacked” family transitions

   1. SHDr. Sheryl0:00

      There's a particular kind of chaos that can happen in a family when everyone is going through a developmental transition at the same time. One child is entering puberty, another is approaching it, and meanwhile, as the parent, you may be navigating huge physical and emotional shifts in your own self. Exhaustion, menopause, irritability, grief, overwhelm, stress, loneliness. And what if you're a single parent? You're absorbing all of this on your own. Today, I'm talking with a mom of two who wrote in about parenting through exactly this season. We talk about emotional overload, single parenting, re-parenting yourself while raising kids, and what it means to stay connected when everyone's nervous system is stretched thin. I'm Dr. Sheryl. Welcome to The In Between Years. [gentle music] Hi, Camille.

   2. CACamille1:02

      Hi. Nice to meet you.

   3. SHDr. Sheryl1:04

      Tell me about yourself. What's happening in your world, in your house? I'm excited to get to know you.

2. 1:10 – 2:46

   Meet Camille: single mom of two, working full-time, managing nonstop schedules

   1. CACamille1:10

      Oh, thanks. Um, well, I am a single parent of two. I have a almost 10-year-old and almost 15-year-old, freshman in high school and rising fourth grader. We live outside of Nashville, and I'm a full-time working parent, so, and I do get to work from home. Um, so yeah, I'm juggling all the things. [laughs]

   2. SHDr. Sheryl1:32

      Yes, juggling all the things. And what's it like? What are your almost 10 and almost 15-year-olds, what are, what are they like these days?

   3. CACamille1:40

      Um-

   4. SHDr. Sheryl1:40

      They're, they're kind of both in in-between times, so I'm interested to hear that.

   5. CACamille1:43

      They, they are. My son is, um, he'll be 15 in about, in about a month. He is, um, finishing up his freshman year of high school. He is very much a- an athlete. Um, he's been doing basketball and football most of, since he could move [laughs] Um, and just moving into basketball now, so, uh, we do a lot of travel ball, so we're moving and shaking all the time. Uh, my youngest, she is more creative, more STEM-y. She's into piano. She takes art. She, um, went to an outdoor school on a farm her, um, early s- early education, I guess, or preschool and kindergarten and first grade. Um, so they're both very busy, very active kids. Um, and they actually, given the five year, three month, and five day spread, they get along really well. They do have their moments, but [laughs]

   6. SHDr. Sheryl2:35

      Okay. And as, as you know, I lo- I love hearing that. I love that you have both ends of, like, I've got a really athletic kid, and then I've got an artsy, science-y kind of kid.

   7. CACamille2:45

      Yeah.

3. 2:46 – 4:24

   Hormones in the house: sibling dynamics, mood swings, and naming what’s happening

   1. SHDr. Sheryl2:46

      And we're, no matter what, we're busy. And they are both, I mean, I'm gonna assume your 10-year-old may be is starting puberty, and your 14, almost 15-year-old is well into puberty.

   2. CACamille2:58

      Yes.

   3. SHDr. Sheryl2:59

      Yeah, so do we feel the hormones flying around?

   4. CACamille3:02

      Oh, yeah. There are days when, like I said, they do, they play well together, but there are days when the almost 15-year-old, my son, doesn't wanna do anything with her, and she's still in the play with me stage, and be with me stage, and he wants nothing to do with her. So she takes things very personally, um, even though we try to explain our bodies are doing different things right now, and sometimes our moods are gonna be funny, and this is what happens with big brother, [laughs] and one day it'll be you. Although, I've seen some mood shifts in her, too, more in the morning time. She's just our grumpy morning person, um, all of a sudden. So yeah, lots of moods happening. And I am an older parent. I started my family in my late 30s. I was, I'm what, um, the medical community likes to call advanced maternal. Um, so I had my-

   5. SHDr. Sheryl3:51

      Well, that's better than geriatric, right?

   6. CACamille3:53

      Right? I did hear that. [laughs]

   7. SHDr. Sheryl3:54

      [laughs]

   8. CACamille3:55

      I did hear that. Um, early w- on, I did hear that. I was like, "No, we need to say something different." Um, so, you know, I had my son at 36 and my daughter at 41. Um, so I am at a stage now, as you can do the math, where my body is changing, too.

   9. SHDr. Sheryl4:12

      [laughs]

   10. CACamille4:12

       So we're having a lot of fun in my house with the ups and downs and learning how to manage emotional mood swings or fatigue. Um, so there's a lot that goes into it, yeah.

4. 4:24 – 6:53

   Realizing it’s a layered season: parenting with less energy and more intention

   1. SHDr. Sheryl4:24

      Yeah. When did you, um, kind of make that connection, that, oh, wait, they're, they're going through their mood swings, especially your son, and hmm, I think simultaneously, so am I?

   2. CACamille4:36

      Yeah.

   3. SHDr. Sheryl4:36

      Was that gradual, or was it, like, a sudden, a, you know, quick overnight, "Oh, yeah"?

   4. CACamille4:39

      I, I think it was gradual, but then, you know, someone pointed it out to me, like, "You're in this very layered season of life," and I'm like, "You are right." [laughs] I, there's a lot of layers, um, to the parenting experience I'm having. So yeah, it was a gradual, but then someone verbally pointed it out to me, so.

   5. SHDr. Sheryl4:59

      Yeah, I'm really, um, fascinated with this because I think now, thankfully, that over, especially s- feels like the last three years or so, menopause and perimenopause are having their moments.

   6. CACamille5:11

      They are.

   7. SHDr. Sheryl5:11

      We're now then realizing, oh, wait, wait, and kids are going through puberty because there are women that are having children older.

   8. CACamille5:18

      Yes.

   9. SHDr. Sheryl5:18

      They're literally going through these huge hormonal shifts at the same time.

   10. CACamille5:23

       The same time. [laughs] It's wild.

   11. SHDr. Sheryl5:26

       Yes.

   12. CACamille5:26

       It is wild. Um, and that's something, you know, I've had to incorporate into my parenting, is, like, recognizing I'm not always gonna have the energy. Every day is different, and I have to parent m- in the moment. I can't parent the way I want to. I have to be intentional about parenting where I'm at. Um, so it's been, it's been a ride the last couple years, for sure.

   13. SHDr. Sheryl5:48

       And do you use those words with your kids? Do you say to them, like, "Oh, big brother is going through puberty," or-

   14. CACamille5:54

       Yes

   15. SHDr. Sheryl5:54

       ... "I'm going through perimenopause"? You do.

   16. CACamille5:56

       Yeah, my daughter is very funny about it. She'll be like, "Must be the hormones," you know, or whatever. [laughs] Um-

   17. SHDr. Sheryl6:03

       Isn't that, we're having a role reversal where kids are saying to their parents-

   18. CACamille6:06

       Yeah

   19. SHDr. Sheryl6:06

       ... "Oh, it must be your hormones."

   20. CACamille6:07

       It's must be those hormones. Yeah. Um, yeah, it is funny. So yes, I do. I mean, they're aware. Uh, my daugh- I just had a birthday, and, um, my daughter's card was very sweet. It was like, "Even though you're 51, you look 48, Mom." I was like, "Woo-

   21. SHDr. Sheryl6:22

       [laughs]

   22. CACamille6:22

       ... a whole three years." [laughs] Like-

   23. SHDr. Sheryl6:26

       Oh my gosh, that is so... Was she trying to be funny, or was she just trying to be sweet?

   24. CACamille6:28

       She was trying to be sweet, I think.

   25. SHDr. Sheryl6:30

       [laughs]

   26. CACamille6:30

       I think she thought 48 is young, you know. Um, so that was funny. But yeah, she, she are very much aware of the stage I'm in as well. Um, we have, we have to have a lot of talks, like, "Mommy's not up for it right now," or I have to give myself a break a lot, um, just from all of the things, the busyness and the energy and the emotions and yeah.

5. 6:53 – 10:00

   Tween vs. teen needs: closeness, independence, and the “swinging door” effect

   1. SHDr. Sheryl6:53

      Yeah, so how would you describe, um, your experience of parenting a tween and a teen at the same time? What, what is that like?

   2. CACamille7:04

      It, it's challenging 'cause they're in different stages, right? He is very much into this creeping into independent stage, but I still need to connect with him, and I still need to build trust with him, um, while he's learning how to manage his emotions and build that, you know, part of his brain. Um, I think it's executive function that we're trying to teach them as they, you know, get through this puberty stage. And my daughter still, she craves closeness and just wants to be a part of everything I'm doing and what I'm reading and what I'm, who I'm talking to, so she's still in that stage. But then she has, her moods too are starting. Um, so it's ju- it is a little bit exhausting, and I have to remember, you know, just this is the person you're dealing with right now. Now it's him, and now it's her. So remembering that closeness, and then he wants a little bit of independence, but he still sometimes will come in, you know, for that closeness. But just continuing to build trust with a teenager and then loving on my nine-year-old. You know, she's still that, still has that sweetness to her. But then I see the flashes of the tween, and I'm like, "Ah." [laughs] Like, how is this gonna go? Yeah.

   3. SHDr. Sheryl8:15

      Yeah.

   4. CACamille8:16

      It's, it's, it is exhausting. Yeah.

   5. SHDr. Sheryl8:18

      Yeah. I love the way, though, you're so clear about the stages that they're in-

   6. CACamille8:23

      Yeah

   7. SHDr. Sheryl8:23

      ... which is something I, I think for me, um, you know, having been in child development and child psychology for so long, I love that parents are able now to articulate-

   8. CACamille8:35

      Yeah

   9. SHDr. Sheryl8:36

      ... the tween years, that they really are legitimately, like she's probably still two feet fully in and like, you know, hugging on you-

   10. CACamille8:43

       Yeah

   11. SHDr. Sheryl8:43

       ... like a koala bear.

   12. CACamille8:45

       Yeah.

   13. SHDr. Sheryl8:45

       And you're gonna start noticing maybe even, you know, in the, in the upcoming months, and then she'll, like, dip a toe out, and then she'll come back in.

   14. CACamille8:52

       Yeah.

   15. SHDr. Sheryl8:52

       Right? And your son is probably one foot in and one foot out. Um, and so sometimes, yeah, he comes in and, and wants to talk forever and, you know, you know, hang out with you, and then, like, but solidly has a foot out too, which is like-

   16. CACamille9:04

       Right

   17. SHDr. Sheryl9:04

       ... "I'm gonna go do this." Like, "No, don't be around, and don't say too much. Don't embarrass me."

   18. CACamille9:09

       Oh, yeah, yeah.

   19. SHDr. Sheryl9:10

       [laughs]

   20. CACamille9:10

       Don't embarrass me. Don't be cringe mom.

   21. SHDr. Sheryl9:13

       Yeah. [laughs]

   22. CACamille9:13

       Um, yeah, all the fun, the fun slang now. Yes. That is, that is pretty spot on. Um, yeah, so it is, I think, you know, what is that like? I think it's... I don't know. I, I'm like, if I were 28 or 30, would this feel different? I don't know, you know? Um, I, it's just, it's a swinging door every day, and it's learning to set boundaries with myself too because I'm in a funny stage of life, you know, in this next transition, if you will. Um, and learning how to, you know, adapt to that and then self-care, you know, and learning how to set boundaries with the kids. Like, this isn't the time for that because I need [laughs] a break. Um, so it's been, it's been a, it's been an experience, for sure.

6. 10:00 – 11:29

   A surprising upside: shared empathy when everyone has mood swings

   1. SHDr. Sheryl10:00

      Yeah, you know, I just had this, a, a light bulb moment. Sometimes that happens, and when you said, um, "I don't know if this would be easier if right now I were 28 or 30-"

   2. CACamille10:10

      Mm-hmm

   3. SHDr. Sheryl10:10

      ... um, what's really interesting is I actually can feel that you have a greater compassion or empathy for them because you yourself know now in real life time what it feels like to have a mood swing or to wanna be with your kids so much and then have that moment of like, "Oh my gosh, I need a break. I need a break."

   4. CACamille10:30

      Yeah.

   5. SHDr. Sheryl10:30

      "Please step away." And I'm not sure, at different ages and stages, we have different appreciation for things, and I think you appreciate the fact that you can actually feel today what a mood swing feels like. For a lot of people, they're just like, "Oh, I remember. You know, I gave my parents-

   6. CACamille10:47

      Yeah. [laughs]

   7. SHDr. Sheryl10:47

      ... a hard time when I was a teenager," but it feels like a long time ago.

   8. CACamille10:51

      Yeah.

   9. SHDr. Sheryl10:51

      You're in it, so you can really empathize. Have you ever, have you ever thought, had that thought?

   10. CACamille10:56

       No. I mean, I, I know I do have the empathy, but kno- knowing where it comes from and you pointing that out is actually makes a lot of sense, you know.

   11. SHDr. Sheryl11:05

       Yeah, like you can j- it's almost like you can join in with them, like-

   12. CACamille11:08

       Yeah

   13. SHDr. Sheryl11:09

       ... you're having your tween stuff, and you're having your teen puberty stuff, and I'm having my perimenopause or menopause stuff, and, um, let's all have grace with each other.

   14. CACamille11:17

       Yeah.

   15. SHDr. Sheryl11:17

       Let's all kinda be patient. I, there's just actually something really beautiful about that.

   16. CACamille11:22

       Oh, thanks. Yeah, it i- [laughs] beautiful and messy. Beautiful and messy.

   17. SHDr. Sheryl11:28

       Beautiful and messy.

   18. CACamille11:28

       Yeah.

   19. SHDr. Sheryl11:28

       Yes, yes.

   20. CACamille11:29

       Yeah.

7. 11:29 – 13:11

   What feels hardest: single-parent bandwidth, boundaries, and learning self-care late

   1. SHDr. Sheryl11:29

      So what's feeling kind of most messy or trying or hard for you right now with both the kids?

   2. CACamille11:36

      Well, I think, you know, I have extra layers, and, and depends who's hearing this, but, you know, add on, um, solo parenting or single parenting, however you wanna explain that. Um, n- the majority of the time, it's just me, and then they see their dad, um, you know, probably about once a month for a couple days or whatever. But- So I have them full-time every day, so I have that piece where there's no one to tap out to, right? When the kids are in a mood or I'm having exhaustion, I can't say, "Hey, high five. Um, it's your turn." [laughs] So I, I think the most challenging for me... And then I'm also working on some of my own personal growth, you know? As they're learning and growing, I'm also learning and growing with them. And so I'm, I think the challenging part is managing my emotions and kno- knowing how to set boundaries for myself to give myself a break. Those, uh, those reminders are difficult for me because I didn't grow up learning that, you know, or being taught, "This is what you need to do for you." It was just, I just didn't have that, um, access to that knowledge, if you will. So learning that as an adult, like you have to care for you. Pour into your own cup, as they like to say, before you can, um, help others or, you know, manage others is, is been the biggest challenge is just reminding myself, have grace with myself. You know, be intentional. You don't have to be perfect. Be consistent and be intentional. Those are kinda my mantras every day. Like, doesn't have to be perfect. [laughs] Um-

   3. SHDr. Sheryl13:10

      Yes.

   4. CACamille13:10

      Yeah.

8. 13:11 – 14:37

   The unspoken realities of single parenting: dating, support systems, and asking for help

   1. SHDr. Sheryl13:11

      Let, let's get, let... 'Cause you've, you've opened the door, and I wanna get really real about single parenting. In this country, we have a high percentage specifically of women, right? There's a high proportion of single parents that are women. And what is the real challenges? Like, just lay them out. What's hard about being a single parent at this stage of life right now?

   2. CACamille13:36

      Oh, gosh. It's kind of wild because my son is, you know, as I said, he's a teenager, so the interest in the opposite sex or, is there. And so I think he looks at me differently now knowing that I am single, if I do go on dates, so that's kind of strange and awkward, too. [laughs]

   3. SHDr. Sheryl13:53

      Oh, yeah, you're both dating at the same time.

   4. CACamille13:55

      Right. You know.

   5. SHDr. Sheryl13:57

      [laughs]

   6. CACamille13:57

      Um, but I think single parenting is hard. You know, there's a, uh, we are not set up systemically. There's just not a lot of support, and in having to be intentional again about, I was never a person who asked for help. I'm hyper-independent. And, um, it just became a, it's sink or swim. Either you lean on your community, or it's gonna get really hard for you. And so I've had to learn to ask for help, and that, and as a result, I've built a very beautiful community around me that helps me, you know, raise my kids, um, ultimately, or logistically helps me out [laughs] and just emotionally supports me. But that, that took some time to get there.

9. 14:37 – 18:03

   The emotional labor: who do you ‘download’ to at the end of the day?

   1. SHDr. Sheryl14:37

      Yeah. One of the things that I'm, I'm thinking about as you're sharing that piece is also that the emotional labor of being-

   2. CACamille14:45

      Mm-hmm

   3. SHDr. Sheryl14:45

      ... a single parent. And I'm thinking about, I have a friend who's, uh, recently a single parent, and there are occasions that have come up. There's been a graduation, you know, a milestone birthday, uh, prom season, and I notice that she shares with our friend group probably the way she would or wishes he could maybe with, you know-

   4. CACamille15:10

      Mm-hmm

   5. SHDr. Sheryl15:10

      ... their dad.

   6. CACamille15:11

      Yeah.

   7. SHDr. Sheryl15:11

      And, you know, there's like, "Oh, my gosh, look at her getting ready," and, "Look, this is the dress we picked out," or, "Oh, this is the flowers we're gonna use." And, and it, it struck me that, yeah, when you're, when you're not with the other parent, there's also just that emotional piece. You wanna share the highs and the lows and the-

   8. CACamille15:28

      Mm-hmm

   9. SHDr. Sheryl15:29

      ... the pictures, and you want someone to think your, your kid is as beautiful or as amazing or smart and intelligent. You know, you've... I, I found that at least with her, that I can tell she's wanting to share in that. And I'm wondering, for you, how has that emotional labor piece been?

   10. CACamille15:44

       It is challenging, and you do, it's, I'm acutely aware of that, that part of my experience. Um, I do have like [laughs] as you're saying, a group chat. I'm like, I do. I have group chats. I have different group chats. Different stages of life friends, right? And, um, there is that sharing piece. Like, I have a really close friend who, um, is a big part of our lives, and I will send her like, "Look at this picture that popped up of my son," you know, or, "Oh, my gosh, look at this video," and so nostalgic things, but then current events, too. Like, they'll check in, and say, "Hey, how did that game go?" Or, "Did she, you know, learn that piano piece?" Or whatever it is. But everyone is, you know, they kind of, I think they just realize, and they just, it becomes automatic. But that, again, it, you become acutely aware like, oh, at the end of the day, [laughs] you know, it's nighttime, it's like, who do I download to?

   11. SHDr. Sheryl16:38

       Yes.

   12. CACamille16:39

       You know?

   13. SHDr. Sheryl16:39

       Big time. I mean, I'm-

   14. CACamille16:40

       Yeah

   15. SHDr. Sheryl16:40

       ... that's what I'm doing. I'm tracking with you, and I'm like-

   16. CACamille16:42

       Yeah

   17. SHDr. Sheryl16:42

       ... okay, great, you've got the group chat, and you can share, which is actually amazing.

   18. CACamille16:45

       Yeah.

   19. SHDr. Sheryl16:45

       I'm sure there's plenty of single parents that may not have that. And you're right. Usually at the end of a night, no matter what stage or age your kids are, you kinda download to your partner or your spouse, and you go, "Oh, dinner was rough," or, "Oh, gosh, getting through homework, oh, I'm exhausted. Can you-

   20. CACamille17:04

       Yeah

   21. SHDr. Sheryl17:04

       ... do this in the morning?" You, you, and you don't even realize that you've got, you've got that other person. And so what do you do then at night?

   22. CACamille17:12

       Huh. Um, besides fall asleep really easily, um-

   23. SHDr. Sheryl17:16

       [laughs]

   24. CACamille17:17

       [laughs] I will either be texting with someone. I do on and off write in a journal. I'm not consistent about that practice. Um, I'll go through pictures and organize or just, you know, do something to, um, kind of wind down the day. Um, but it's usually pillow talking with my kids, you know? My son is a big pillow talker, so if he does have something to share, that's when he shares it, or I'll, you know, get to ask more questions at that time of day. And my daughter as well. She's still a snuggler and needs you to help her get to sleep, um, or at least, you know, sit there with her while she's trying to fall asleep. But so, yeah, I get to talk to them a lot about their days or what's happening the next day.

10. 18:03 – 19:26

    Dropping the “perfect parent” pressure: you can start connection rituals anytime

    1. SHDr. Sheryl18:03

       Yes, and I wanna point this out 'cause I know, I know someone is listening, and they're having that heart drop, like, [gasps] "I didn't do that. I didn't write journals to my kid-"

    2. CACamille18:11

       Oh, I know

    3. SHDr. Sheryl18:12

       ... when they were four," or, "My kid's already through high school. I never d-..." Like, we can all start today from where we're at. Even if your son is done with his freshman year, like, you could do it tonight. You could be like, "Hey, here's how freshman year looked. This is what I saw. This is how you grew-

    4. CACamille18:25

       Yeah

    5. SHDr. Sheryl18:25

       ... in every way," you know?

    6. CACamille18:27

       Yeah, and you're right. There is that pressure, too. We're in such a performance culture. [laughs] I s- I see it mostly with my kids that, you know, just there's so, so much pressure to just be this perfect parent, and I think, I'm like, "I just need to keep showing up consistently." [laughs] I, I mean, I'm not gonna get it right. I'm not gonna email my kid all these ideas and, and memories. And I just had this conversation with a couple girlfriends. We have a friend who cleaned out her attic, and she was like, "Oh, and I went through my kids' and put their memory stuff in a box." And my other friend was like, "I ha- don't have any of that." Like, [laughs] she was like, "Oh my gosh, you're so good." But it's, you know, it doesn't matter. Like, we have the memories in our minds, and you're right, it's, it's, it's whatever works for you, and you're right to take that pressure off. That's a good reminder for me, too, 'cause I do put a lot of pressure on myself, so.

    7. SHDr. Sheryl19:21

       Yeah. Like, today's the day you can start doing whatever it is you're, you feel inspired by, right?

    8. CACamille19:26

       Yeah.

11. 19:26 – 24:05

    ‘Do I have to be mom and dad?’ Gendered moments, role models, and safe communication

    1. SHDr. Sheryl19:26

       Um, so I'm wondering, when you are with, you know, the other parents that you're talking about, your friends, just other friend groups, have you ever had experiences where you feel like, um, you know, "I feel uncomfortable. It feels like everyone here has a partner," or the kids, you know, only see their dad kind of occasionally, and am I playing the role of mom and dad? Like, what are some of those, y- you know, insecurities or worries that you experience?

    2. CACamille19:58

       Yeah, those came up definitely early on. So even before we got divorced, he had taken a job overseas, so I was on my own, so to speak, during those years. Um, and it, really, those thoughts started popping up then, and it more, mostly around my son because my daughter was an infant and really just didn't know, um, any differently, but he did. He was five, a little over five, almost six when he started that, and so I would have those thoughts a lot, like, "My kid doesn't have his dad on the football field, flag football field," or, you know, or sitting court-side. So some of that feeling of like, "Oh, gosh, what do I need to do?" I did. I learned how to throw [laughs] a football. I can throw a mean spiral now.

    3. SHDr. Sheryl20:40

       Yay.

    4. CACamille20:40

       Um-

    5. SHDr. Sheryl20:41

       Is it at all gendered for you? So meaning, like, your son probably is learning how to shave, or he has-

    6. CACamille20:48

       Mm-hmm

    7. SHDr. Sheryl20:48

       ... to, you know, there's different things that are happening for him in terms of his development. So do you feel more comfortable with that 'cause you're like, "Yeah, I've been a single parent. I'm comfortable," or is this, are there certain times where you're like, "Wow, I could really use, you know, a male presence with him because I think there's things going on with him that maybe I don't fully understand-

    8. CACamille21:09

       That's right

    9. SHDr. Sheryl21:09

       ... or identify with"?

    10. CACamille21:11

        Yeah, I definitely have those moments, and thankfully, his dad now is not overseas. [laughs] He's two and a half hours away, so there's, there's times when he do- he's able to do that. You know, like, he buzzed his hair for the first time, um, and they loved that. But the shaving thing, and I just, all of that, I look and I'm like, "I wonder if he's comfortable to talk to me?" But that is one thing I'm super proud of and been intentional about, is I want my kids to feel safe enough to be honest with me, even if it's hard. Like, that's so important to me. I did not have that growing up. Um, so I work really hard at making sure he tells me, like, "Well, this isn't a you thing. It's a dad thing," or, um, "I don't wanna talk to Dad about this. I wanna talk to you about this," you know? Like, if it's a girl thing, he's like, "I wanna... No, I'm just gonna..." I'm like, "You don't wanna call Dad?" "No, I wanna talk [laughs] to you about this." I'm like, "Okay." So I- I think he's starting to recognize, too, where he needs one of us, you know, or the male role. But it would be nice. I mean, it is... It would be lovely to have a male presence permanently and full-time around my kids. But, um, like I said, you build that community around you, and, um, I'm, I'm very, uh, intentional, I don't wanna say picky [laughs] about who I expose them to 'cause I want them to be good role models, you know? So.

    11. SHDr. Sheryl22:29

        Right, right. Which I, I, that's definitely something I feel like, you know, p- single parents talk to me a lot about, is-

    12. CACamille22:36

        Mm-hmm

    13. SHDr. Sheryl22:36

        ... when is the right time? When would I introduce this other person-

    14. CACamille22:39

        Yeah

    15. SHDr. Sheryl22:40

        ... into my kids' lives? That's, like, a whole nother part of it. But one thing I want to really understand, especially you've got experience now, is do you think as a single parent, as a primary single parent, that you do wind up playing the role of mom and dad in the way that we think about it? Or do you think that it's like, "No, this is just the role of mom, and I just ha- I just wear more hats." Like, how would you maybe do that, especially if someone's listening and they're newly single, or they have got younger kids?

    16. CACamille23:12

        I think initially I was trying to be two different people, right? Like, I was trying to be the cool dad, [laughs] learning how to throw the football, and, like, trying to show up for him that way, um, which that did make me a better person. I mean, I definitely found the athletic side of me that I didn't necessarily have as a younger person. Um, but I think now it's just I am a mom and a woman who wears many hats with my kids, and I don't put that pressure on myself to fill the, the other role. Like, I think you're, and I tell this to myself, and I would say this to anybody asking, but I, you're perfect enough the way you are. And again, I think our kids just need a consistent presence from us more than anything else, and that I've witnessed, you know, time and time again with my kids.

12. 24:05 – 29:04

    Re-parenting yourself: giving kids what you didn’t get—and the pain inside that

    1. SHDr. Sheryl24:05

       There's another phenomenon that happens to all parents, single or not, which is sometimes this idea of re-parenting.

    2. CACamille24:12

       Mm.

    3. SHDr. Sheryl24:13

       And I'm wondering if that's ever kind of crept into your life and how you define re-parenting yourself through these years.

    4. CACamille24:22

       Yeah. It crept up really early for me, um, when my son was in his toddler bed. I mean, it's like a very pivotal moment. I'm like, "Why am I so sad [laughs] ? This is not postpartum." Um, and I have always done therapy on and off for years. Um, and it occurred to me through, after that moment, that I think it's because I'm giving him things that maybe I didn't get, right? Or I'm showing up in ways... And I'm gonna get emotional. Um, you're gonna hear my voice quiver [laughs] if you're listening.

    5. SHDr. Sheryl24:59

       It's okay. It's okay.

    6. CACamille24:59

       But I'm showing up in ways that maybe my parents weren't capable of showing up. So in learning that about myself, I'm like, "Oh, geez. [laughs] I don't know what I'm doing." Like, do I know what I'm doing? I, you know, I would question, like, I don't think I know what I'm doing as a parent if I didn't get these things. So, you know, after years of parenting and a marriage that wasn't very healthy, um, and knowing, you know, that I needed therapy, I learned about myself, so much about myself, sometimes too much about myself, um, that [laughs] , you know, re-parenting or personal growth or however you wanna put it, I just, there were some things that weren't available to me in developmental years that I am able to give my kids, and that is such a wild experience. Because you're giving your kids this amazing thing, you know, whether it's consistent hugs or communication or whatever, but at the same time, you're like, "Ouch, I didn't get this." So you're, like, sad but excited [laughs] at the same time. It's like two things can be true at one time. Um, it's a wild experience. But yes, the phenomenon of re-parenting is real. Um, I will say, and I see this, I've seen it in myself, I see it in other parents too, that as we learn about ourselves and this re-parenting phenomenon, sometimes we hold our kids accountable for our childhood that we did or didn't get, right? And I think I've been guilty of that. Like, my kids should be grateful [laughs] that I'm this, that, or they have these things, or... But I'm like, I'm the one that chose to live here. I'm the one that chose to give them these things or parent this way. They didn't ask me for that, so they're, they shouldn't be accountable for what I'm choosing to do as a parent, right? Um, that's kind of crazy, too, through this re-parenting experience, if you will. And it's not that I think my parents were awful. It's just they, they had a certain capacity at that stage in their lives to give or not give what I needed as a kid. And, um, you realize that through your own parenting. Like, I don't know if I would've recognized that part of my development had I not become a mom.

    7. SHDr. Sheryl27:27

       And through the re-parenting process, right, there, for some people, it's just like you said, it starts off with noticing at some point, wow, I'm, I'm able to give my kids what I didn't have and I desperately wanted, or I didn't even know that I wanted it-

    8. CACamille27:43

       Right

    9. SHDr. Sheryl27:44

       ... um, or that I needed it. And then there's the healing within that happens when not just we are doing better for our kids, or differently for our kids, but also how it impacts us.

    10. CACamille27:58

        Yeah.

    11. SHDr. Sheryl27:58

        So what has that part of re-parenting been like for you?

    12. CACamille28:02

        Uh, very emotional. [laughs] Um, and you do kind of a timeline of evaluation of, like, choices you've made, and how did I get from A to B to C to D? And, you know, I was just in survival mode. And so the impact it's had on me is just having compassion and grace for the, the things that I've done or chosen to do or not do. And, um, I now, instead of being so hard on myself, like, "Oh my gosh, I'm so behind. I'm 50 years old. I'm 51," I'm like, "Hey, this is my path, and I'm supposed to be here [laughs] where I am." And I took all of these years, it took me half a century to get here and to realize these things, and that is something. Some people go their whole lives, right, and they don't get a second chance at being the best version of themselves, and I do. So it's been an emotional [laughs] ride, a lot of grieving, but also I'm very excited, so.

13. 29:04 – 32:43

    Grief, lost time, and self-compassion—plus Dr. Sheryl’s closing permission slip

    1. SHDr. Sheryl29:04

       Yeah. Yeah. I... You're sharing so many important things, and I think that's, um... W- the way I want to sort of, like, end this, you just said, which is you said, "There's been a lot of grieving." And I'm wondering what that grief process, what's, what's been the grief about, and had you always thought of it as grief?

    2. CACamille29:29

       I don't think I thought of it as grief. I think I just was, um... I don't know. It wasn't grief until I realized, why am I so [laughs] sad about this? And I think it was just because so many years went by, and I was living in this space, right, in my head. Had I had this awareness about myself at a younger age, would my life be different? So I think the grieving is things that may or may not have been, right? And just being, being, and being accepting of where I've landed. Um, knowing, like you said earlier in our conversation, that you can start anytime, right? You can start your [laughs] email to your kids anytime. You can start- whatever it is at any time, you know, and to give myself grace, but that grieving is just loss, you know, lost time.

    3. SHDr. Sheryl30:21

       Yeah. Yeah

    4. CACamille30:21

       A lot of lost time.

    5. SHDr. Sheryl30:28

       I'm still thinking about what Camille said about all of these aspects of being a single parent. I had so many takeaways, but I'd say the first one that I walked away from was it's never too late to start, whether that's a new career, or writing emails to your kids that they can read when they're older, or even starting to date. There's nothing like today. And I'm also thinking about how she talked about how important it was for her to ask for help. I think this applies to all of us, but it especially is important when you're a single parent, and you really do need a community. You need some sort of help. And the third thing that was really so beautiful that we got to at the end was we can give our kids what we didn't have. I wanna give you a gift. I'm gonna give you a permission slip, a permission slip to ask for help. We get so fixated on how we think others will respond that we never make the ask in the first place. Chances are the people who care about you want to help, but they don't know how to take the first step, or what you need. So I'm officially saying it right now, Dr. Sheryl gives you permission to ask for help. Thank you so much for joining us on The In Between Years. If this conversation resonated with you, send it to another parent, or a caregiver, or an educator who's in this messy middle with you. Okay. Let's zoom out. Let's take a deep breath. This in-between stage feels hard because it is hard. If you remember nothing else, remember this: They act like they don't need you, they still need you. I'll see you next week. [outro music]

Episode duration: 32:44