Parenting Without Punishment: What to Do When Your Kid Melts Down in Public

Dr. Becky 0:00 Okay, your kid is screaming in the middle of the grocery store. No, your kid is rolling around in the middle of a restaurant. Actually, no, sorry, your kid is jumping in mud in their dress clothes after you said, "Please don't jump in the mud in your dress clothes." Whatever it is, no matter where you are, there is always one person who walks by a situation like this and gives you the look, and you know the look because the look has a voice, even if you don't hear anything, and the voice says, "You're gonna let them get away with that?" And the voice then says to you, "If I don't handle this firmly and harshly, I'm gonna look permissive. I'm gonna look like I let my kid walk all over me. I'm gonna look like I am reinforcing bad behavior. I'm permissive. I'm a pushover." Now, I'm just gonna put it on the table, I've had that thought myself many times, so if this sounds familiar to you, I don't have a camera into your brain, I just can hear my own brain. But here's the thing. Is punishment actually the opposite of permissiveness? Hmm. Today we're gonna try something new. My friend, one of my favorite people to talk with about anything, Myleik Teele, is back with me, and we're going to start myth-busting some of the stickiest parenting beliefs out there. And this one thought, that if I don't punish, I'm permissive, is something that I think a lot of us just hold as truth. It's kind of nonfiction. Maybe it's not true, or maybe that thought needs a little updating. That's what we're gonna talk about today. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. I'm so glad you're here. This is a series we're calling Is It True? In each of these types of episodes, we're going to take one parenting idea that sounds obvious, you just kind of move past it, something we've said or believed or just held as the truth, and we're just gonna get curious about it. We're gonna also ask, "Is this idea helpful in the way we want to show up?" So Myleik, when you hear, "If you don't punish, you're permissive," what does that stir up in you?

Myleik Teele 2:24 It, I feel like so many people, if you see a kid, whatever the action is, a good parent does something. A good parent has an equal or greater-

Dr. Becky 2:40 Ooh

Myleik Teele 2:41 ... reaction to-

Dr. Becky 2:43 Every action has an equal-

Myleik Teele 2:44 Has an equal-

Dr. Becky 2:45 ... opposite reaction.

Myleik Teele 2:46 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 2:46 Yeah.

Myleik Teele 2:46 So it's like if you do this-

Dr. Becky 2:48 Mm

Myleik Teele 2:48 ... oh, you broke that. You hit that. Let me take it up a notch.

Dr. Becky 2:53 And, and there's a publicness of this, but I think this thought plays out in private, too.

Myleik Teele 2:57 Oh, it does.

Dr. Becky 2:58 I really think it's one of the oldest, deepest beliefs, and maybe it's so old because it's literally old from generations.

Myleik Teele 3:04 Right.

Dr. Becky 3:06 I, I can't l- let them get away with it, which I think is related. Letting someone get away with something means I'm not punishing it?

Myleik Teele 3:13 Right.

Dr. Becky 3:13 Is that... It feels like those are almost the same.

Myleik Teele 3:16 Right. Y- How will they get better if you don't punish it?

Dr. Becky 3:20 Then they think-

Myleik Teele 3:20 How will they learn if you-

Dr. Becky 3:22 Then they think-

Myleik Teele 3:23 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 3:24 ... I think it's okay.

Myleik Teele 3:25 It's okay.

Dr. Becky 3:26 So okay, so your kid does something in front of you, right? Either you say, "Oh, stop jumping on the couch," and they keep jumping on the couch.

Myleik Teele 3:34 Right.

Dr. Becky 3:34 Or they just say something really rude to you, or they don't listen, right? And if you don't punish, is it that you feel permissive? Or, like, what's the language that really you think parents are, like, struggling with about what this all means about them?

Myleik Teele 3:49 I know in that moment I'm probably thinking, oh, you think I'm weak.

Dr. Becky 3:53 Mm.

Myleik Teele 3:54 You think you can get over on me. You think that you're in charge.

Dr. Becky 3:59 Mm.

Myleik Teele 3:59 You know, you think you're the bo- you think you're the boss. You, you do whatever you wanna do around here. And so if I don't let you know who's in charge-

Dr. Becky 4:10 Mm

Myleik Teele 4:11 ... at all times-

Dr. Becky 4:13 Yeah

Myleik Teele 4:13 ... you know, I'm not doing my job.

Dr. Becky 4:16 Look, first of all, I think you're right, so thank you for naming that, and I, I just picture parents being like, "Yep, that is, yep, that's it." 'Cause it's, it's really, like, deep, like, if you think about that, like, what... So it's, 'cause this can happen, like, our kid can be two.

Myleik Teele 4:30 Yes.

Dr. Becky 4:31 They can be six. They can be 10, but they can be two.

Myleik Teele 4:35 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 4:36 And my kid does something I say not to do. I'm like, "Oh, you think you're the boss of me?"

Myleik Teele 4:39 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 4:39 Like, I don't maybe say that, but that, you think-

Myleik Teele 4:41 Oh, in my mind, yeah

Dr. Becky 4:42 ... yeah, like, you're saying I'm weak.

Myleik Teele 4:43 Yeah, you think-

Dr. Becky 4:44 You think-

Myleik Teele 4:44 Yeah. You can do whatever you want around here. You just get up. You, you, oh, you're not wearing that. You're throwing that away. Y- You're not eating that?

Dr. Becky 4:52 Wait, can I ask you a question? I never thought about this.

Myleik Teele 4:53 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 4:55 Do you think when you're sleeping and it's 2:00 AM with your four-month-old-

Myleik Teele 4:59 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 5:00 ... and they're screaming for you, ah, right?

Myleik Teele 5:02 Right.

Dr. Becky 5:02 Do you think parents then are like, "Oh, you think you're the boss of me?" Or no, not then?

Myleik Teele 5:06 No.

Dr. Becky 5:07 Well, just w- let's walk through that.

Myleik Teele 5:08 Okay.

Dr. Becky 5:08 I've never thought about that.

Myleik Teele 5:09 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 5:09 Like, when does it-

Myleik Teele 5:10 When does it change?

Dr. Becky 5:11 So why not at four months?

Myleik Teele 5:12 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 5:12 But I-

Myleik Teele 5:12 But I think at that age we really do believe that they are helpless. But I think that the more that they are able to do and, you know, the more w- we start shifting, we're, we're changing colored cups now. We're, we're changing meals. We're, we're, we're doing all of these things that they want us to do, and then when we ask them to do something and they don't do it, it's like, "I've been doing, [laughs] I've been doing this all day."

Dr. Becky 5:38 Yeah.

Myleik Teele 5:39 "Putting your shoes on, changing your pants, and now I ask you to do one simple thing, and you can't do it."

Dr. Becky 5:44 Yeah.

Myleik Teele 5:44 "So who's in charge here, me or you?"

Dr. Becky 5:46 So I just think that that's interesting to track. Like, it's true. When my baby cried in the middle of the night-

Myleik Teele 5:52 Right, I didn't

Dr. Becky 5:52 ... or I took them out in an outfit and they spit up on it, I'm definitely not like, "Oh, you think you're the boss of me?"

Myleik Teele 5:58 Right.

Dr. Becky 5:59 Like, "Oh, you think we're just going home because of, you know, like, I had a plan to go out." We don't really think that with our nine-month-olds.

Myleik Teele 6:04 We don't, but at some point it does start to happen. Yeah, and it's just, it's not kind of nonstop.

Dr. Becky 6:10 Yeah, it is. But you know what's interesting? It's nonstop because we see the world through whatever glasses we're wearing.

Myleik Teele 6:17 Right.

Dr. Becky 6:18 And maybe you're seeing at a certain age, [laughs] never thought about it this way, one of the sets of glasses I don't even think we realize are on all the time is just power.

Myleik Teele 6:26 Yes.

Dr. Becky 6:27 Who has power?

Myleik Teele 6:28 Right. I was gonna ask you that because I'm like, I'm talk- I'm noticing the glasses, and I'm like at some point they come on, and they never [laughs] come off.

Dr. Becky 6:38 Right.

Myleik Teele 6:38 Yeah. I'm, I'm always seeing it that way.

Dr. Becky 6:41 Is it power dynamics? Are you evaluating your own strength and worth-

Myleik Teele 6:46 Yes

Dr. Becky 6:46 ... through your toddler's behavior?

Myleik Teele 6:48 Whether or not they're doing what I say sometimes.

Dr. Becky 6:51 Yep. Yes.

Myleik Teele 6:53 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 6:53 Yes, it is true. I am.

Myleik Teele 6:54 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 6:55 Is that not a good equation? [laughs]

Myleik Teele 6:56 Yeah, yeah. I, I am doing that.

Dr. Becky 6:58 Uh-huh.

Myleik Teele 6:58 Even if, even if I don't want to be doing it, I'm doing it.

Dr. Becky 7:02 Yeah.

Myleik Teele 7:04 Why?

Dr. Becky 7:05 A lot of us, if we think back on our earliest years, a lot of dynamics were around power. Power, fear.

Myleik Teele 7:12 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 7:12 Right? I'm gonna... Right? Like, kind of know my parents are more powerful. There's a lot of fear, so I'm gonna do this thing short-term until I'm out of their house.

Myleik Teele 7:19 Right.

Dr. Becky 7:19 And they lord things over us, and if you don't do this, then you don't get to do this. They're all, like, power equations.

Myleik Teele 7:26 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 7:26 And so I do think that lives deep i- in our bones. Way before we became a parent, it was just there's probably of the unwritten models of parenting had a lot to do, I think, with power and fear.

Myleik Teele 7:40 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 7:40 Right?

Myleik Teele 7:41 And outside of the home, too. I think about school, wherever you go. School, camp, you know, it was always that sorta-

Dr. Becky 7:47 Yeah

Myleik Teele 7:47 ... that sorta deal.

Dr. Becky 7:49 And so here's this moment. Let's just say it is my toddler, start there, won't put on their shoes. A- and even if it's my seven-year-old, 'cause I think some people say, "But my seven-year-old should know better," right? I mean, we all should know better with things, but-

Myleik Teele 8:01 Right

Dr. Becky 8:02 ... let's say there's a situation, and I think the parent starts thinking, "I can't put up with this."

Myleik Teele 8:07 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 8:07 "Also, they can't think this is okay. They can't feel like they run this house."

Myleik Teele 8:12 Right.

Dr. Becky 8:12 "I have to punish them." I have a question for you. [laughs] I don't, I don't know the right answer to this question either. What is punishment? Like, maybe what's an example of it? And what do we, even if it doesn't make sense, what do we think it does in terms of teaching and effectiveness?

Myleik Teele 8:28 You know, it's, "I want you to know that I didn't like what you did."

Dr. Becky 8:31 Uh-huh.

Myleik Teele 8:32 "I don't want it to happen again, and because you did that, I need to do something to you, take something from you. Something needs to happen to you so that you know not to do that again-

Dr. Becky 8:45 Mm-hmm

Myleik Teele 8:45 ... and that I don't like it."

Dr. Becky 8:46 Okay, so actually I wanna break that down. Step one, I need you to know-

Myleik Teele 8:50 Yep

Dr. Becky 8:50 ... that I don't approve of this behavior.

Myleik Teele 8:52 Step one.

Dr. Becky 8:53 Okay. So punishment is a way of telling your kid that.

Myleik Teele 8:57 Okay.

Dr. Becky 8:57 Right?

Myleik Teele 8:57 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 8:57 We're, we're gonna think if there's alternatives for each of these needs, but-

Myleik Teele 9:00 Okay

Dr. Becky 9:00 ... I get as a parent if my kid is doing something that I don't think is okay, I actually understand. I kind of want them to know that I don't think it's okay. Totally reasonable. Whether that has to come out in punishment, we can think about, but punishment says that. Not okay.

Myleik Teele 9:13 Right.

Dr. Becky 9:13 Number two, punishment kind of says, um, "I don't want you to do this again."

Myleik Teele 9:19 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 9:20 Maybe number three brings it together, that maybe the best way, tell me this is true, the best way of telling you I don't approve and trying to have something not happen again is to make you feel bad or to make you feel small or to deliver some type of emotional, physical-

Myleik Teele 9:40 Yeah

Dr. Becky 9:40 ... pain.

Myleik Teele 9:41 Right.

Dr. Becky 9:41 And is that-

Myleik Teele 9:42 That's, that was my third, was something has to happen to you.

Dr. Becky 9:45 Something has to-

Myleik Teele 9:45 Something-

Dr. Becky 9:45 ... happen to you.

Myleik Teele 9:47 Yes.

Dr. Becky 9:48 Do you think there is that equal opposite thing, where I'm upset about this-

Myleik Teele 9:53 Yes

Dr. Becky 9:53 ... so, so you have to be-

Myleik Teele 9:55 You need to feel some of this in some way.

Dr. Becky 9:58 I can't be the one watching you behave in this way and my body feels uncomfortable.

Myleik Teele 10:03 Right.

Dr. Becky 10:04 Like, is there an indignance there?

Myleik Teele 10:05 I mean-

Dr. Becky 10:05 Like, your body has to feel uncomfortable

Myleik Teele 10:06 ... but I mean, this is how I grew up. My mom's like, "Oh, you emb- you embarrass me." This would-

Dr. Becky 10:10 Tell me

Myleik Teele 10:11 ... before we go into a store.

Dr. Becky 10:12 Yeah.

Myleik Teele 10:12 "You embarrass me, and I'm going to embarrass you." And that sort of whatever I feel, you feel.

Dr. Becky 10:20 Hmm. And did she?

Myleik Teele 10:22 And so [laughs] yes.

Dr. Becky 10:24 [laughs]

Myleik Teele 10:25 Yes, she did, but or I knew. You know, it's like-

Dr. Becky 10:28 Mm-hmm

Myleik Teele 10:28 ... I was like I knew that if I made her uncomfortable, if I embarrassed her, she was going to ensure that I was also embarrassed.

Dr. Becky 10:39 Interesting.

Myleik Teele 10:40 Yep.

Dr. Becky 10:40 So this is old. Beyond the punishment-

Myleik Teele 10:42 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 10:43 ... part, even though it's part of the punishment, is-

Myleik Teele 10:45 Yeah

Dr. Becky 10:45 ... if I feel bad as a parent from a situation, you need to feel that way.

Myleik Teele 10:49 Yes.

Dr. Becky 10:50 And, and I just wanna say something 'cause my mind's going this direction, so I don't know if anyone listening is. [laughs] I don't know why I picture someone thinking maybe I'm thinking, "Oh, the days when children listened to parents in stores." [laughs]

Myleik Teele 11:03 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 11:03 Like, a littleness, bizar- like, a little nostalgia, like, oh, the days where I could in theory say to my kid, "If you do this, here's what's gonna happen," and they were, like, a little bit nervous enough to modify their behavior.

Myleik Teele 11:17 Yes.

Dr. Becky 11:17 'Cause I do think there's a little bit of wistfulness for the impact, maybe not the tactics-

Myleik Teele 11:23 Right

Dr. Becky 11:23 ... but the impact now.

Myleik Teele 11:24 For sure.

Dr. Becky 11:25 Right?

Myleik Teele 11:25 Yeah. It worked sometimes. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 11:27 It worked sometimes.

Myleik Teele 11:28 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 11:29 And I know you and I have talked about other consequences, long-term, short-term.

Myleik Teele 11:34 When I think about being a Black parent, and I think about if there's no punishment-

Dr. Becky 11:41 Yes

Myleik Teele 11:42 ... if there's no clear consequence, how will my kid know that there are consequences in the world? Okay, you are five today, and I call your name, and you don't turn around, or you roll your eyes, or you hiss, and you're out in the real world, and you get pulled over-

Dr. Becky 12:09 Yep

Myleik Teele 12:09 ... and you do any one of those things, there is a great chance that You will be punished harshly, or you may not be alive

Dr. Becky 12:20 And the layer I think that you're not saying but is implied, and, and is that is different for you than a white child

Myleik Teele 12:25 Completely

Dr. Becky 12:25 Yes. That is-

Myleik Teele 12:26 Completely

Dr. Becky 12:26 ... very real

Myleik Teele 12:27 And so when I... You know, if when I'm with my kids, that is something that people say, is that that is something white kids can do

Dr. Becky 12:36 Mm.

Myleik Teele 12:37 That is something white kids can do, and Black kids can't do that. Like, almost like we don't have the time. You know what I mean? It's like I have to speed this up because the world is not safe, and you, Becky, you can take seven years practicing, but I don't feel like I have that much time

Dr. Becky 12:56 Mm.

Myleik Teele 12:58 And so I have to show my kid, at least give them an idea of what the consequences might feel like so that maybe they won't want to do any of those things out in the world that could harm them

Dr. Becky 13:13 And what goes on in your body as you say all those words? I'm sure you're thinking about your kids

Myleik Teele 13:20 You know, it's awful because I can think about why my parents parented the way that they did, and I can know that it was, in some ways, when we talk about, you know, my number one job is to keep my child safe, I think they really believed that that's what they were doing, and I feel like there are a lot of Black parents that believe that they are keeping their kids safe that way

Dr. Becky 13:46 And, like, if my kid is unfairly singled out on the street-

Myleik Teele 13:52 Yes

Dr. Becky 13:52 ... pulled over, whatever it is-

Myleik Teele 13:54 Yes

Dr. Becky 13:54 ... they better know how to keep their body safe and calm and not do anything that could be interpreted

Myleik Teele 14:02 Correct, or they're in a group. You know, you're in a group of white kids

Dr. Becky 14:06 Uh-huh

Myleik Teele 14:08 You, you can't do what those kids can do. You know, if you're in a group of white kids, and you do the exact same thing-

Dr. Becky 14:17 Yeah

Myleik Teele 14:18 ... there is a chance that you will be punished-

Dr. Becky 14:20 Yeah

Myleik Teele 14:20 ... in a way that those other kids won't

Dr. Becky 14:22 And one of the things I think you and I, I think, agree on, what if the best chance of my kid learning how to stay calm in the face of authority isn't punishing? What if that only leads them to lock away their anger and rage, and that makes it more likely it comes out when they're teens, and they aren't scared of adults anymore because they're not small?

Myleik Teele 14:49 Yeah

Dr. Becky 14:50 Like, do you feel like that, beyond feeling better, do you... Are you like, "No, no, part of it is I actually think that is-"

Myleik Teele 14:54 No, I 1,000%.

Dr. Becky 14:56 Mm.

Myleik Teele 14:57 I, I see it now. He's at a point where he can start to tell you when something's going to bother him. It's like he can almost pin down what's going to... what sends him on a tear, and so he may not even do it. And so I am-

Dr. Becky 15:14 Ah

Myleik Teele 15:14 ... like, oh, my goodness. He is starting to learn the ways to stay safe, and even one of his teachers said, "No one can tell you how they're feeling better than he can."

Dr. Becky 15:25 Wow

Myleik Teele 15:26 And I, to me, I think that is what will keep him safe. But I think the hardest part, and I talk to you about this all the time, is that if, if I want my child, who will become an adult, to understand sort of, like, authority-

Dr. Becky 15:45 Yep

Myleik Teele 15:47 ... and to just stay calm in the moment, they have to be able to practice this with me

Dr. Becky 15:56 Yeah

Myleik Teele 15:57 And I think that's the hardest part of, like, they have to be able to yell and s- like, like you said, it is a practice-

Dr. Becky 16:06 Yeah

Myleik Teele 16:06 ... that they're not going to get the first time

Dr. Becky 16:09 Yeah

Myleik Teele 16:09 So sometimes, you know, it's like this is a long game. This is a long game, and I think that, okay, I'm gonna stay calm. They're going to have a moment, and I'm going to have to do that many times until they, you know, essentially co-regulate. But I think-

Dr. Becky 16:27 Yeah

Myleik Teele 16:27 ... that's the part that's the hardest, is that it's hard to believe that this could, quote-unquote, work

Dr. Becky 16:34 Well, it really sounds, it does sound like you're coaching. You're, you're, you're trying to coach him.

Myleik Teele 16:41 Yes

Dr. Becky 16:41 You're trying to coach him

Myleik Teele 16:43 Yes

Dr. Becky 16:43 What would you need? What will eventually help-

Myleik Teele 16:47 Right

Dr. Becky 16:47 ... you change your behavior? What's really going on? And if I wanna be your coach in that-

Myleik Teele 16:54 Yes

Dr. Becky 16:54 ... I kind of have to be on your team

Myleik Teele 16:56 Right

Dr. Becky 16:56 And we have to have a strong enough relationship that you're willing to be influenced by me even as you get older

Myleik Teele 17:02 Right

Dr. Becky 17:02 Right?

Myleik Teele 17:03 Yeah

Dr. Becky 17:04 I mean, I think about that a lot now. I have a 14-year-old, and I think you, uh, it- you still wanna have influence on your kid as they get older, almost especially. You're gonna have it in smaller doses-

Myleik Teele 17:15 Okay

Dr. Becky 17:15 ... but the stakes, the stakes get higher

Myleik Teele 17:17 Right

Dr. Becky 17:18 Right? And connection is always the portal to influence. Like, staying connected to someone, you're, if you're not connected to someone when you're 14, when your kid is 14, they have this realization, "I'm bigger than you. I really don't care about your timeouts." [laughs] Like, those things w- doesn't make sense. When I'm out, and I don't come home, if all you have is words and threats, and then I just get to go to school again tomorrow, like, there's-

Myleik Teele 17:45 Right

Dr. Becky 17:45 ... nothing. They, they kind of can call us-

Myleik Teele 17:48 Yeah

Dr. Becky 17:48 ... on our bluff

Myleik Teele 17:49 But connection, I think that is the, that is the place that I think it's tough because I feel like I was taught that-

Dr. Becky 17:56 Mm

Myleik Teele 17:56 ... if my kid does something bad, I go away from them

Dr. Becky 18:00 If my kid does something bad, we disconnect. I, I pull away my love as a punishment?

Myleik Teele 18:06 Yes

Dr. Becky 18:07 Yes, that, that is a punishment

Myleik Teele 18:08 That is a punishment. You know, I'm not talking, or I'm, you know, you can tell that I'm, I'm no longer dealing with you, and I think that is something that to go toward our kids when they do something we don't like-

Dr. Becky 18:21 Yes That we can still stay connected to the good kid underneath. This kind of brings it all together. I can tell my kid that behavior wasn't okay.

Myleik Teele 18:29 Right.

Dr. Becky 18:30 I can still see the good kid underneath. I'm not so much connecting to the bad behavior, as much as I'm staying connected to my good kid who's struggling.

Myleik Teele 18:40 Right.

Dr. Becky 18:40 And then I can act like a coach. To have this behavior change, I have to figure out, well, what's really going on, and then, yeah, kind of help them change through skills, not just probably power and fear.

Myleik Teele 18:54 Right, and giving it time.

Dr. Becky 18:56 Is there [laughs] another way, maybe that you've even played around with your kids, of letting your kids know that you do not approve of their behavior that doesn't involve punishment?

Myleik Teele 19:06 Yes.

Dr. Becky 19:07 Uh, so how, how... Just 'cause I actually think for a lot of people, they're like, "Are there other options?"

Myleik Teele 19:11 There, there are. I, I told you when I met you, I never wanted to, like... I, I certainly never wanted to hit my kids.

Dr. Becky 19:17 Yeah.

Myleik Teele 19:17 And I just never felt like punishing worked, because I'd been punished, and I'm just like, "I don't know that this works." But I feel like I can let my kids know, "This is not okay."

Dr. Becky 19:32 Mm-hmm.

Myleik Teele 19:34 And I don't necessarily need to make them feel like I feel, even if I am embarrassed, you know? It's like I have had my kid do things that were embarrassing or were hard, and I did not feel the need to, like, send him to his room to make him feel worse or take something from him.

Dr. Becky 19:58 Yeah.

Myleik Teele 19:59 So I mean, what have I done?

Dr. Becky 20:01 Yeah.

Myleik Teele 20:01 What have I done, you know? I might say, I'm trying to think of a specific example.

Dr. Becky 20:04 But you just said it. A- a- and actually, I think there's a version that's simple that you said but you didn't even realize. You can tell your kid, "That's not okay."

Myleik Teele 20:13 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 20:14 "That's not okay with me."

Myleik Teele 20:15 Right.

Dr. Becky 20:16 I, I mean, I could go so far permission any parent and say, "I do not approve of this behavior." Like, you can make it-

Myleik Teele 20:22 Right

Dr. Becky 20:23 ... crystal clear with your language.

Myleik Teele 20:24 Right.

Dr. Becky 20:25 But-

Myleik Teele 20:25 But you know, but let's just be honest, sometimes that does not feel like enough.

Dr. Becky 20:28 Well, I, I thought you were gonna say something else. It doesn't feel as good.

Myleik Teele 20:31 No. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 20:31 There is something-

Myleik Teele 20:32 No, it doesn't. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 20:33 Can we just let ourselves say there is something so cathartic-

Myleik Teele 20:37 Yes

Dr. Becky 20:37 ... about no dessert for a week, and you say it, and for the split second-

Myleik Teele 20:43 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 20:44 ... it, it, I'm b- I, it feels good.

Myleik Teele 20:46 It does.

Dr. Becky 20:46 It really does. [laughs] You're like, "I was so frustrated, and I get to" ... And I think this is what it is. I get to vomit all of my frustration-

Myleik Teele 20:56 Yes

Dr. Becky 20:56 ... onto my child.

Myleik Teele 20:57 Yes.

Dr. Becky 20:57 That's what it is. It's vomiting.

Myleik Teele 20:59 Right.

Dr. Becky 21:00 Right?

Myleik Teele 21:00 Of like this is what, either this is what happened to me, or this what, this is what would happen to me.

Dr. Becky 21:05 Yes.

Myleik Teele 21:05 Like, if, if I said to my mom, [laughs] if I gave an order of what I wanted, and then she brought it back and I said, "Oh, I don't want that anymore" [laughs] What? And my kids do that all the... "I didn't say, I don't want that."

Dr. Becky 21:21 Yeah.

Myleik Teele 21:21 "Mom, you know I don't want that. Why would you order that?" You said that.

Dr. Becky 21:26 This is what happens when you have children. Like, it is so crazy the gaslighting that happens.

Myleik Teele 21:31 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 21:31 I just wanna validate.

Myleik Teele 21:32 Okay, please.

Dr. Becky 21:33 I would like pasta and chicken, and you're like, "Sure, reasonable." And you literally go to your child, "Here is pasta and chicken," and they go, "I don't like pasta and chicken." And there are times when I've heard myself say things, like, it's like I need my kid to know that, like, I'm not crazy.

Myleik Teele 21:52 There's that.

Dr. Becky 21:53 Like, I need to be harsh to prove to my five-year-old that he did say pasta and chicken.

Myleik Teele 22:01 Yes.

Dr. Becky 22:01 'Cause if he gets so upset, you said it, and if you don't tell me you said it right now-

Myleik Teele 22:07 Yes

Dr. Becky 22:08 ... I am going to fill in the blank with something that I have at most a 15% chance of following through on.

Myleik Teele 22:12 Right.

Dr. Becky 22:13 Let's be clear. There are so many of us, I think especially women, who were taught to look elsewhere-

Myleik Teele 22:17 Mm

Dr. Becky 22:17 ... to learn our internal reality.

Myleik Teele 22:20 Yes.

Dr. Becky 22:20 Am I allowed to feel upset about this? Is this a big deal?

Myleik Teele 22:23 Right.

Dr. Becky 22:23 Right? And so if you're thinking, "Oh, my God, that's so pathetic," that's kind of right. I on some level do have this wish my kid will say, "You're right, Mom, I did say that."

Myleik Teele 22:31 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 22:32 That's when I can have more compassion rather than judgment for myself, because probably even before I became a mom, I was encouraged to kind of always look outside for validation.

Myleik Teele 22:44 Right.

Dr. Becky 22:44 And so sure, that pattern comes up now, and I can start to shift it now. But I just, uh, I hate the idea of a parent really blaming themselves for that. Like, that's probably historical.

Myleik Teele 22:52 Right.

Dr. Becky 22:52 Right?

Myleik Teele 22:53 Right.

Dr. Becky 22:53 Uh, this part is always confusing. Like, I guess the theory is if they get so upset after a bad behavior, the next time they're in that situation, they're gonna think about, "Wait, the last time I did this, I got punished." Like, that's where it always a little bit breaks down for me. Like, wait a second, the last time I hit my sister, I didn't get dessert, so I am going to pause right now and not hit my sister. Like, I, I still... I, I feel like we're focusing punishment is on the after behavior.

Myleik Teele 23:26 Yes.

Dr. Becky 23:27 And it's hard for me to really make sense of, and then I think my kid before the behavior is gonna access the thing that happened last time after the behavior. Like, but I think that's, we kind of think it works like that.

Myleik Teele 23:38 That's exactly how we think it works. I mean, as you were explaining that, and I'm like, oh, wow, yeah, I guess, I guess that doesn't make sense.

Dr. Becky 23:46 Right. Right.

Myleik Teele 23:46 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 23:46 'Cause I don't even think it works like that, that well for adults, right?

Myleik Teele 23:49 No.

Dr. Becky 23:49 Or it's, it's sophisticated to think my young kid is gonna be able to-

Myleik Teele 23:52 Right

Dr. Becky 23:53 ... think about all that behavior-

Myleik Teele 23:53 Put all of those pieces together, right?

Dr. Becky 23:55 Right.

Myleik Teele 23:55 Hold on.

Dr. Becky 23:56 [laughs]

Myleik Teele 23:56 The last time I did this, let me s- I'm gonna take a deep breath.

Dr. Becky 23:59 Henceforth.

Myleik Teele 24:00 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 24:00 Henceforth I shall not do.

Myleik Teele 24:02 Right.

Dr. Becky 24:02 Okay. So let's just paint an alternative, and I think what you've said is really poignant. I haven't thought about it. It's, the alternative we're gonna paint isn't, "No big deal. Who cares about soccer? Let's go for ice cream," but any alternative to punishment might feel like that.

Myleik Teele 24:17 Right.

Dr. Becky 24:17 But let's, okay, so you go first.

Myleik Teele 24:20 Okay.

Dr. Becky 24:20 You sign him up for soccer.

Myleik Teele 24:21 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 24:21 You go to the first day of practice And I know you're sounding, I w- I'm not, I'm not judging you

Myleik Teele 24:25 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Becky 24:26 Okay.

Myleik Teele 24:26 You know?

Dr. Becky 24:26 What do you do?

Myleik Teele 24:26 I mean, what am I doing? Because I've been in this situation. It's like I sign up for dance, and we get to dance, and, and, and she's not going inside, and we're not leaving. That's kind of... I, I already committed to the time.

Dr. Becky 24:40 Oh, yep.

Myleik Teele 24:40 So that, that is what I'm telling myself, is that I'm going to be here for the 45 minutes. I don't want to be the person that's like, "Oh, you don't feel like it today? We'll just leave." And so I'm like, "All right. Why don't we stand, why don't we, like, look through the window?"

Dr. Becky 24:56 Okay.

Myleik Teele 24:57 "See how you feel, and then I will tell you, and then I'm going to go. I'm going to go, and the teacher is going to come get you," and I'm okay with her kind of crying through the class.

Dr. Becky 25:11 I, by the way, you know your kid.

Myleik Teele 25:14 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 25:15 That's the thing.

Myleik Teele 25:16 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 25:16 The, you know your kid, and you kind of know, and I, I always love this phrase, like, you, you know her arc.

Myleik Teele 25:21 Yes.

Dr. Becky 25:22 So just s- say a little, like, why might this be, I always call it, why is this maybe just part of her arc?

Myleik Teele 25:26 This, because, [laughs] because as soon as I, as soon as I walk away, her, all of the times this has happened, I get a photo of her [laughs] just more joyous than she was before we left. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 25:42 And they're like, "Your daughter-

Myleik Teele 25:44 You-

Dr. Becky 25:44 "... is amazing in dance class." [laughs]

Myleik Teele 25:46 And you, I'm, as soon as you walked away, Mom-

Dr. Becky 25:49 Ugh

Myleik Teele 25:49 ... she was fine.

Dr. Becky 25:51 That's exactly right.

Myleik Teele 25:52 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 25:52 And I'll just paint a different picture in my house-

Myleik Teele 25:54 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 25:54 ... 'cause I think, let's talk about getting out of the house, right?

Myleik Teele 25:56 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 25:56 Which can feel like such a disaster, and my kids being so hard, and they're not getting ready. And again, first thought, punishment, because I need to let them know it's not okay.

Myleik Teele 26:03 Right.

Dr. Becky 26:04 I, I want some validation that they're making mornings hard, and I don't want them to do this. Okay, if we put, well, there's other ways to do the first couple things, and maybe, I think we just have curiosity. Maybe punishment isn't the best way, and maybe there is a lot between punishment and weak and pathetic. So here's, like, again, a different way of intervening. First of all, I really do say to myself when we're in a hard morning stage, like, to myself, just, "Mornings have been rough, and my kids have been dragging their feet." I just tell them, "That is all true." Like, I know that. That matters. That, like, takes the heat down a tiny percentage 'cause I'm not looking for them to give me that.

Myleik Teele 26:40 Okay.

Dr. Becky 26:41 Number two, I, I think a lot about whether we approach our kids, our partners. Am I approaching you like you're on one side of the table and I'm looking at you like you are the problem?

Myleik Teele 26:55 Yes.

Dr. Becky 26:55 And there wouldn't be a problem. You just came to my side of the table. The ultimate partner fight. If you were like me-

Myleik Teele 27:02 Right

Dr. Becky 27:02 ... we wouldn't have an issue. [laughs] Right, versus, same with the kid, we're actually on the same side of the table, and together we're looking at a problem. And I think this is really powerful as an alternative to punishment because the problem isn't necessarily my kid. The problem is that mornings have been a disaster. And if I assume we're actually on the same team against that, I would actually have not a punishment approach, not a permissive approach, I would coach like a coaching approach. It's like if you have a kid who keeps missing layups, you could say, "I'm gonna punish you if you miss another one," but I actually don't know if there's any parent listening who's like, "Yes, yes to that coach. Punish my child," or if they want the coach who said, "Something's going on with layups. I'm on your team. Let's figure it out together."

Myleik Teele 27:50 I d-

Dr. Becky 27:51 What comes up for you?

Myleik Teele 27:51 I just, as long as I've been doing this, it is still sometimes a challenge to remember we are on the same team. I don't know that there's a parent out there that doesn't, that hasn't, like, mornings don't wear them down.

Dr. Becky 28:07 Right.

Myleik Teele 28:08 And if I could just say, you know, the morning is, is the issue, and it's not the fact that my kid never knows where their shoes are.

Dr. Becky 28:20 A- and, uh, look, and I do think this is a practice. Mindsets are practices, and our old mindsets come in, and the truth is, same team mindset is the opposite of punishment mindset. I don't think the opposite of punishing is permissiveness. Maybe the opposite of punishing is being on the same team, and being on the same team doesn't mean condoning behavior.

Myleik Teele 28:45 Right.

Dr. Becky 28:45 If I'm coaching a basketball team and my player has a lot of turnovers and I say, "Hey, I'm on your team. Let's figure it out together," it's interesting, I just don't think anyone thinks, "Oh, oh, so you're telling Jayson Tatum that it's okay he has turnovers." That, that's like a psychotic interpretation. No one would even think that if I'm Coach Mazzulla of the Boston Celtics, right? They would think, "That's a good coach." Of course you're on the same team. Everyone wants the same things. We forget I do have a good kid. It doesn't seem like it, but I do. So I just wanna finish this mornings, 'cause if I'm in a good spot, I'll talk to my kid at night, not in the morning when it's a disaster. "Hey, mornings have been really tough, and I actually think, I just wanted to let you know, first of all, it's nobody's fault. We're on the same team. I feel like you probably want them to go smoother, too. Like, nobody wants this yelling, screaming thing. And so I have a couple ideas what I could do. I wonder if you have a couple ideas that would make mornings easier for you, and we could, I don't even know, just kind of talk about it for a minute, and we can figure it out together." Because one of the things I learn every time I talk to my kids that way, and for someone thinking, "But my kid's two or three," I started talking to my kids that way when they were one and two. Uh, they're not gonna say anything profound, but this is all a practice for how you're relating, and even a young kid who can't articulate something sophisticated knows when they're being approached as opposite team or same team.

Myleik Teele 30:07 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 30:07 We just feel it, and I almost always get something, like, "You know, maybe I can put out my shoes the night before," and I can be like, "Great idea." Or if they don't, I could say something like, "Is it hard to leave the morning? Just hard to, like, get out of the house and-" Get ready for the day ahead, and usually, by the way, if anyone said that to me, I'd just be like, "Yes," you know?

Myleik Teele 30:31 Right.

Dr. Becky 30:32 And going back to that last thing of, but I want my kid to be less likely to do it again, when I bring my kid in on the same team, and they're involved in coming up with solution, I really mean this, I have found that to be consistently the most helpful thing in getting them to change behavior, because they're actually brought in to being part of a solution-

Myleik Teele 30:53 Right

Dr. Becky 30:53 ... instead of being labeled as the problem. I mean, it's completely different.

Myleik Teele 30:57 I know. As you're sa- as you're saying this, my brain is just like-

Dr. Becky 31:00 Yeah, yeah, go, go, go

Myleik Teele 31:01 ... bubble- bubbling because [laughs] it almost feels like what you're saying is, as a parent, there are things that I can do to either slow myself down or prevent having to lean on just, "That's it. This is over," and what you're saying is, okay, if I prepare, like, a little bit, like you said, if I just, I'm gonna just prepare a little bit. If I know that this is an issue or, you know, if I don't want something broken, I may start the night before or before I get it, "Hey, we're gonna be getting a new..." My kids love to break TVs.

Dr. Becky 31:44 Right. [laughs]

Myleik Teele 31:45 I'm sorry.

Dr. Becky 31:45 Yeah, [laughs] they're just, right.

Myleik Teele 31:47 Your bank account.

Dr. Becky 31:47 We're, we're going to be getting a new something.

Myleik Teele 31:50 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 31:50 Right, but also what I really love, and I think this one is, is tough for parents because, because of sometimes the age of, like, involving them-

Myleik Teele 32:00 Yes

Dr. Becky 32:00 ... of saying-

Myleik Teele 32:00 Yeah

Dr. Becky 32:01 ... "What do you think we might do-

Myleik Teele 32:04 Yeah

Dr. Becky 32:04 ... um, when we get the new television-

Myleik Teele 32:07 Yes

Dr. Becky 32:08 ... that, you know, maybe we won't throw toys in the living room?" You know, it may be what.

Myleik Teele 32:15 Right.

Dr. Becky 32:16 You know-

Myleik Teele 32:16 Yeah

Dr. Becky 32:16 ... you get them involved, because I will just tell you, that is what happened.

Myleik Teele 32:19 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 32:19 My, this is definitely a punishable offense. My daughter threw a toy at the television, and it's done, and I, that's something that I probably would've been punished for.

Myleik Teele 32:28 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 32:29 And but it, but I, you know, I definitely didn't do the pre part, but now that I know, when I got the second television, you know, I'm like, "All right. Let's get you involved," and I did not, there was no punishment. I don't, I didn't yell, and it's just like, "Okay, let's not throw toys across the living room."

Myleik Teele 32:46 And, and this is a hard part, when our kids are young especially, we'll see our kid near the TV throwing something we know they shouldn't throw-

Dr. Becky 32:55 Mm-hmm

Myleik Teele 32:55 ... and I'm so guilty of this. Stop throwing that. Please don't throw that. Even though the rule is no having that in the living room.

Dr. Becky 33:03 Right.

Myleik Teele 33:04 Versus, hey, I'm coming over to you. We're on the same team. You know we don't do that. If you can't give it to me by the time I get there, I will carry it, I will carry you in it, whatever it is-

Dr. Becky 33:14 Right

Myleik Teele 33:14 ... to another room, like, kind of stepping in sooner.

Dr. Becky 33:18 What is kind of the amended, let's see, that's the, the, like, is this true? If I don't punish, I'm permissive. If I don't punish, I'm weak. What's the kind of, yeah, where are we landing here?

Myleik Teele 33:29 Where are we landing?

Dr. Becky 33:30 Yeah.

Myleik Teele 33:30 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 33:30 Where are we landing this plane?

Myleik Teele 33:32 If I don't punish, I am building skills. If I don't punish-

Dr. Becky 33:36 Mm

Myleik Teele 33:37 ... I am, I don't know, I'm staying connected. I'm-

Dr. Becky 33:42 Yeah

Myleik Teele 33:43 ... letting my child know that I am on their team-

Dr. Becky 33:46 Mm-hmm

Myleik Teele 33:46 ... and that I'm willing to however long it takes, like you said, if it was swimming, if it was anything else, however long it takes for us to learn this together because I feel like there's all these little things that we are punishing for.

Dr. Becky 33:59 Yeah.

Myleik Teele 33:59 And it's just like, you know, that I'm willing to, to stay with you in this until this changes, and eventually it does.

Dr. Becky 34:07 I, I really like that. I think, trying to think where I'm landing. If I don't punish, or, like, the opposite of punishment isn't being weak and permissive. Maybe the, the true opposite of punishment is same team leadership.

Myleik Teele 34:23 Yes.

Dr. Becky 34:23 Right? 'Cause I think that's what I'm left with too. So much of punishing is just reacting to.

Myleik Teele 34:28 Right.

Dr. Becky 34:29 And I think the best leaders, they're not reacting to. They're grounded enough to, they make decisions. They, they, they lead. [laughs]

Myleik Teele 34:39 Right.

Dr. Becky 34:39 They don't just react, and so I think same team leadership is kind of what the best coaches do. I think it's what the best CEOs do when they're in hard moments, and that feels actually powerful to me.

Myleik Teele 34:52 Yes.

Dr. Becky 34:52 And I think that's important, 'cause I do think parents have an appropriate amount of power, not control, but just there's a p- there's an authority.

Myleik Teele 35:01 For sure.

Dr. Becky 35:01 And so there's, I think the opposite of punishment is embodying that authority and leading and coaching, being on the same team. So is it true if you don't punish, you're permissive? I'm gonna go first to Myleik to see where she landed, and then I'll share my thoughts. Is it true?

Myleik Teele 35:21 No, it's not true. It's not true that if you don't punish, you're permissive. If you don't punish, you're taking the time to build skills for change, for the change that you actually wanna see.

Dr. Becky 35:31 Yeah.

Myleik Teele 35:32 You're not weak. You're not letting them walk over you. I think you're, you're fine if you don't punish.

Dr. Becky 35:40 I really don't think I have that much to add. I think that's exactly right. [laughs] I don't think it's true either, and the thing I wanna do, if this resonates, I wanna let you know I'm gonna do this for you, is to me, sometimes the best way of bringing something to life is actually through a specific example. So what I'm gonna do on my blog as a follow-up, you can go to the show notes to get the link, is I'm gonna take a certain situation that drives us crazy at different age groups, so no matter how old your kid is, you'll have an example that makes sense. I'm gonna go through kind of punishment, what feels natural for most of us, permissiveness, and then what I kind of call good inside sturdy leadership, 'cause I think that's what this middle ground is that we're talking about. So you can kind of see it really clearly in very real-life examples. All right. Let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground. [upbeat music] Place a hand on your heart, and let's remind ourselves even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. See you soon. [upbeat music]