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Parenting Without Punishment: What to Do When Your Kid Melts Down in Public

Your kid is melting down in public… and you feel it: “If I don’t shut this down, I'm a pushover. My kid will walk all over me." In this first episode of our new **Is It True?** series, Dr. Becky and Myleik Teele take a closer look at a belief so many parents carry, though rarely question: If I don’t punish, I'm being permissive. Together, they unpack what’s underneath that fear, why punishment can feel so satisfying (and why it often doesn’t work), and what it actually looks like to hold boundaries without being harsh or permissive. They also explore how this question lands differently for Black parents, where the stakes of “not listening” can feel much higher. This is the first in a recurring format we’ll revisit, slowing down common parenting beliefs and expanding them into something sturdier, more usable, and more true. And once you've listened, visit the Good Inside blog: https://www.goodinside.com/blog/is-it-true-is-not-punishing-permissive/ where Dr. Becky shares some examples of "same team leadership. Join Good Inside Membership: http://www.goodinside.com Follow Dr. Becky on Instagram: @drbeckyatgoodinside Sign up for our weekly email: https://www.goodinside.com/newsletter

Dr. BeckyhostMyleik Teeleguest
Mar 24, 202637mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:24

    Public meltdowns and the fear of “looking permissive”

    1. BE

      Okay, your kid is screaming in the middle of the grocery store. No, your kid is rolling around in the middle of a restaurant. Actually, no, sorry, your kid is jumping in mud in their dress clothes after you said, "Please don't jump in the mud in your dress clothes." Whatever it is, no matter where you are, there is always one person who walks by a situation like this and gives you the look, and you know the look because the look has a voice, even if you don't hear anything, and the voice says, "You're gonna let them get away with that?" And the voice then says to you, "If I don't handle this firmly and harshly, I'm gonna look permissive. I'm gonna look like I let my kid walk all over me. I'm gonna look like I am reinforcing bad behavior. I'm permissive. I'm a pushover." Now, I'm just gonna put it on the table, I've had that thought myself many times, so if this sounds familiar to you, I don't have a camera into your brain, I just can hear my own brain. But here's the thing. Is punishment actually the opposite of permissiveness? Hmm. Today we're gonna try something new. My friend, one of my favorite people to talk with about anything, Myleik Teele, is back with me, and we're going to start myth-busting some of the stickiest parenting beliefs out there. And this one thought, that if I don't punish, I'm permissive, is something that I think a lot of us just hold as truth. It's kind of nonfiction. Maybe it's not true, or maybe that thought needs a little updating. That's what we're gonna talk about today. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. I'm so glad you're here. This is a series we're calling Is It True? In each of these types of episodes, we're going to take one parenting idea that sounds obvious, you just kind of move past it, something we've said or believed or just held as the truth, and we're just gonna get curious about it. We're gonna also ask, "Is this idea helpful in the way we want to show up?" So Myleik, when you hear, "If you don't punish, you're permissive," what does that stir up in you?

  2. 2:24 – 3:49

    Why we think “a good parent” must react bigger than the kid

    1. MT

      It, I feel like so many people, if you see a kid, whatever the action is, a good parent does something. A good parent has an equal or greater-

    2. BE

      Ooh

    3. MT

      ... reaction to-

    4. BE

      Every action has an equal-

    5. MT

      Has an equal-

    6. BE

      ... opposite reaction.

    7. MT

      Yeah.

    8. BE

      Yeah.

    9. MT

      So it's like if you do this-

    10. BE

      Mm

    11. MT

      ... oh, you broke that. You hit that. Let me take it up a notch.

    12. BE

      And, and there's a publicness of this, but I think this thought plays out in private, too.

    13. MT

      Oh, it does.

    14. BE

      I really think it's one of the oldest, deepest beliefs, and maybe it's so old because it's literally old from generations.

    15. MT

      Right.

    16. BE

      I, I can't l- let them get away with it, which I think is related. Letting someone get away with something means I'm not punishing it?

    17. MT

      Right.

    18. BE

      Is that... It feels like those are almost the same.

    19. MT

      Right. Y- How will they get better if you don't punish it?

    20. BE

      Then they think-

    21. MT

      How will they learn if you-

    22. BE

      Then they think-

    23. MT

      Mm-hmm

    24. BE

      ... I think it's okay.

    25. MT

      It's okay.

    26. BE

      So okay, so your kid does something in front of you, right? Either you say, "Oh, stop jumping on the couch," and they keep jumping on the couch.

    27. MT

      Right.

    28. BE

      Or they just say something really rude to you, or they don't listen, right? And if you don't punish, is it that you feel permissive? Or, like, what's the language that really you think parents are, like, struggling with about what this all means about them?

  3. 3:49 – 4:52

    The hidden story underneath: power, weakness, and “who’s in charge?”

    1. MT

      I know in that moment I'm probably thinking, oh, you think I'm weak.

    2. BE

      Mm.

    3. MT

      You think you can get over on me. You think that you're in charge.

    4. BE

      Mm.

    5. MT

      You know, you think you're the bo- you think you're the boss. You, you do whatever you wanna do around here. And so if I don't let you know who's in charge-

    6. BE

      Mm

    7. MT

      ... at all times-

    8. BE

      Yeah

    9. MT

      ... you know, I'm not doing my job.

    10. BE

      Look, first of all, I think you're right, so thank you for naming that, and I, I just picture parents being like, "Yep, that is, yep, that's it." 'Cause it's, it's really, like, deep, like, if you think about that, like, what... So it's, 'cause this can happen, like, our kid can be two.

    11. MT

      Yes.

    12. BE

      They can be six. They can be 10, but they can be two.

    13. MT

      Yeah.

    14. BE

      And my kid does something I say not to do. I'm like, "Oh, you think you're the boss of me?"

    15. MT

      Yeah.

    16. BE

      Like, I don't maybe say that, but that, you think-

    17. MT

      Oh, in my mind, yeah

    18. BE

      ... yeah, like, you're saying I'm weak.

    19. MT

      Yeah, you think-

    20. BE

      You think-

    21. MT

      Yeah. You can do whatever you want around here. You just get up. You, you, oh, you're not wearing that. You're throwing that away. Y- You're not eating that?

  4. 4:52 – 7:05

    Why it doesn’t feel like a power struggle with babies—and when the ‘power glasses’ appear

    1. BE

      Wait, can I ask you a question? I never thought about this.

    2. MT

      Yeah.

    3. BE

      Do you think when you're sleeping and it's 2:00 AM with your four-month-old-

    4. MT

      Mm-hmm

    5. BE

      ... and they're screaming for you, ah, right?

    6. MT

      Right.

    7. BE

      Do you think parents then are like, "Oh, you think you're the boss of me?" Or no, not then?

    8. MT

      No.

    9. BE

      Well, just w- let's walk through that.

    10. MT

      Okay.

    11. BE

      I've never thought about that.

    12. MT

      Yeah.

    13. BE

      Like, when does it-

    14. MT

      When does it change?

    15. BE

      So why not at four months?

    16. MT

      Yeah.

    17. BE

      But I-

    18. MT

      But I think at that age we really do believe that they are helpless. But I think that the more that they are able to do and, you know, the more w- we start shifting, we're, we're changing colored cups now. We're, we're changing meals. We're, we're, we're doing all of these things that they want us to do, and then when we ask them to do something and they don't do it, it's like, "I've been doing, [laughs] I've been doing this all day."

    19. BE

      Yeah.

    20. MT

      "Putting your shoes on, changing your pants, and now I ask you to do one simple thing, and you can't do it."

    21. BE

      Yeah.

    22. MT

      "So who's in charge here, me or you?"

    23. BE

      So I just think that that's interesting to track. Like, it's true. When my baby cried in the middle of the night-

    24. MT

      Right, I didn't

    25. BE

      ... or I took them out in an outfit and they spit up on it, I'm definitely not like, "Oh, you think you're the boss of me?"

    26. MT

      Right.

    27. BE

      Like, "Oh, you think we're just going home because of, you know, like, I had a plan to go out." We don't really think that with our nine-month-olds.

    28. MT

      We don't, but at some point it does start to happen. Yeah, and it's just, it's not kind of nonstop.

    29. BE

      Yeah, it is. But you know what's interesting? It's nonstop because we see the world through whatever glasses we're wearing.

    30. MT

      Right.

  5. 7:05 – 8:12

    Where the punishment model comes from: power, fear, and old conditioning

    1. BE

      A lot of us, if we think back on our earliest years, a lot of dynamics were around power. Power, fear.

    2. MT

      Yeah.

    3. BE

      Right? I'm gonna... Right? Like, kind of know my parents are more powerful. There's a lot of fear, so I'm gonna do this thing short-term until I'm out of their house.

    4. MT

      Right.

    5. BE

      And they lord things over us, and if you don't do this, then you don't get to do this. They're all, like, power equations.

    6. MT

      Yeah.

    7. BE

      And so I do think that lives deep i- in our bones. Way before we became a parent, it was just there's probably of the unwritten models of parenting had a lot to do, I think, with power and fear.

    8. MT

      Yeah.

    9. BE

      Right?

    10. MT

      And outside of the home, too. I think about school, wherever you go. School, camp, you know, it was always that sorta-

    11. BE

      Yeah

    12. MT

      ... that sorta deal.

    13. BE

      And so here's this moment. Let's just say it is my toddler, start there, won't put on their shoes. A- and even if it's my seven-year-old, 'cause I think some people say, "But my seven-year-old should know better," right? I mean, we all should know better with things, but-

    14. MT

      Right

    15. BE

      ... let's say there's a situation, and I think the parent starts thinking, "I can't put up with this."

    16. MT

      Mm-hmm.

    17. BE

      "Also, they can't think this is okay. They can't feel like they run this house."

    18. MT

      Right.

  6. 8:12 – 11:34

    Defining punishment: making the child feel bad so it stops

    1. BE

      "I have to punish them." I have a question for you. [laughs] I don't, I don't know the right answer to this question either. What is punishment? Like, maybe what's an example of it? And what do we, even if it doesn't make sense, what do we think it does in terms of teaching and effectiveness?

    2. MT

      You know, it's, "I want you to know that I didn't like what you did."

    3. BE

      Uh-huh.

    4. MT

      "I don't want it to happen again, and because you did that, I need to do something to you, take something from you. Something needs to happen to you so that you know not to do that again-

    5. BE

      Mm-hmm

    6. MT

      ... and that I don't like it."

    7. BE

      Okay, so actually I wanna break that down. Step one, I need you to know-

    8. MT

      Yep

    9. BE

      ... that I don't approve of this behavior.

    10. MT

      Step one.

    11. BE

      Okay. So punishment is a way of telling your kid that.

    12. MT

      Okay.

    13. BE

      Right?

    14. MT

      Yeah.

    15. BE

      We're, we're gonna think if there's alternatives for each of these needs, but-

    16. MT

      Okay

    17. BE

      ... I get as a parent if my kid is doing something that I don't think is okay, I actually understand. I kind of want them to know that I don't think it's okay. Totally reasonable. Whether that has to come out in punishment, we can think about, but punishment says that. Not okay.

    18. MT

      Right.

    19. BE

      Number two, punishment kind of says, um, "I don't want you to do this again."

    20. MT

      Mm-hmm.

    21. BE

      Maybe number three brings it together, that maybe the best way, tell me this is true, the best way of telling you I don't approve and trying to have something not happen again is to make you feel bad or to make you feel small or to deliver some type of emotional, physical-

    22. MT

      Yeah

    23. BE

      ... pain.

    24. MT

      Right.

    25. BE

      And is that-

    26. MT

      That's, that was my third, was something has to happen to you.

    27. BE

      Something has to-

    28. MT

      Something-

    29. BE

      ... happen to you.

    30. MT

      Yes.

  7. 11:34 – 14:22

    ‘The world is harsher’: Black parenting, safety, and the urgency to prepare kids

    1. MT

      When I think about being a Black parent, and I think about if there's no punishment-

    2. BE

      Yes

    3. MT

      ... if there's no clear consequence, how will my kid know that there are consequences in the world? Okay, you are five today, and I call your name, and you don't turn around, or you roll your eyes, or you hiss, and you're out in the real world, and you get pulled over-

    4. BE

      Yep

    5. MT

      ... and you do any one of those things, there is a great chance that You will be punished harshly, or you may not be alive

    6. BE

      And the layer I think that you're not saying but is implied, and, and is that is different for you than a white child

    7. MT

      Completely

    8. BE

      Yes. That is-

    9. MT

      Completely

    10. BE

      ... very real

    11. MT

      And so when I... You know, if when I'm with my kids, that is something that people say, is that that is something white kids can do

    12. BE

      Mm.

    13. MT

      That is something white kids can do, and Black kids can't do that. Like, almost like we don't have the time. You know what I mean? It's like I have to speed this up because the world is not safe, and you, Becky, you can take seven years practicing, but I don't feel like I have that much time

    14. BE

      Mm.

    15. MT

      And so I have to show my kid, at least give them an idea of what the consequences might feel like so that maybe they won't want to do any of those things out in the world that could harm them

    16. BE

      And what goes on in your body as you say all those words? I'm sure you're thinking about your kids

    17. MT

      You know, it's awful because I can think about why my parents parented the way that they did, and I can know that it was, in some ways, when we talk about, you know, my number one job is to keep my child safe, I think they really believed that that's what they were doing, and I feel like there are a lot of Black parents that believe that they are keeping their kids safe that way

    18. BE

      And, like, if my kid is unfairly singled out on the street-

    19. MT

      Yes

    20. BE

      ... pulled over, whatever it is-

    21. MT

      Yes

    22. BE

      ... they better know how to keep their body safe and calm and not do anything that could be interpreted

    23. MT

      Correct, or they're in a group. You know, you're in a group of white kids

    24. BE

      Uh-huh

    25. MT

      You, you can't do what those kids can do. You know, if you're in a group of white kids, and you do the exact same thing-

    26. BE

      Yeah

    27. MT

      ... there is a chance that you will be punished-

    28. BE

      Yeah

    29. MT

      ... in a way that those other kids won't

  8. 14:22 – 17:49

    Connection as the portal to influence—especially as kids get older

    1. BE

      And one of the things I think you and I, I think, agree on, what if the best chance of my kid learning how to stay calm in the face of authority isn't punishing? What if that only leads them to lock away their anger and rage, and that makes it more likely it comes out when they're teens, and they aren't scared of adults anymore because they're not small?

    2. MT

      Yeah

    3. BE

      Like, do you feel like that, beyond feeling better, do you... Are you like, "No, no, part of it is I actually think that is-"

    4. MT

      No, I 1,000%.

    5. BE

      Mm.

    6. MT

      I, I see it now. He's at a point where he can start to tell you when something's going to bother him. It's like he can almost pin down what's going to... what sends him on a tear, and so he may not even do it. And so I am-

    7. BE

      Ah

    8. MT

      ... like, oh, my goodness. He is starting to learn the ways to stay safe, and even one of his teachers said, "No one can tell you how they're feeling better than he can."

    9. BE

      Wow

    10. MT

      And I, to me, I think that is what will keep him safe. But I think the hardest part, and I talk to you about this all the time, is that if, if I want my child, who will become an adult, to understand sort of, like, authority-

    11. BE

      Yep

    12. MT

      ... and to just stay calm in the moment, they have to be able to practice this with me

    13. BE

      Yeah

    14. MT

      And I think that's the hardest part of, like, they have to be able to yell and s- like, like you said, it is a practice-

    15. BE

      Yeah

    16. MT

      ... that they're not going to get the first time

    17. BE

      Yeah

    18. MT

      So sometimes, you know, it's like this is a long game. This is a long game, and I think that, okay, I'm gonna stay calm. They're going to have a moment, and I'm going to have to do that many times until they, you know, essentially co-regulate. But I think-

    19. BE

      Yeah

    20. MT

      ... that's the part that's the hardest, is that it's hard to believe that this could, quote-unquote, work

    21. BE

      Well, it really sounds, it does sound like you're coaching. You're, you're, you're trying to coach him.

    22. MT

      Yes

    23. BE

      You're trying to coach him

    24. MT

      Yes

    25. BE

      What would you need? What will eventually help-

    26. MT

      Right

    27. BE

      ... you change your behavior? What's really going on? And if I wanna be your coach in that-

    28. MT

      Yes

    29. BE

      ... I kind of have to be on your team

    30. MT

      Right

  9. 17:49 – 18:56

    Withholding love is also punishment—and it breaks the ‘same team’ bond

    1. MT

      But connection, I think that is the, that is the place that I think it's tough because I feel like I was taught that-

    2. BE

      Mm

    3. MT

      ... if my kid does something bad, I go away from them

    4. BE

      If my kid does something bad, we disconnect. I, I pull away my love as a punishment?

    5. MT

      Yes

    6. BE

      Yes, that, that is a punishment

    7. MT

      That is a punishment. You know, I'm not talking, or I'm, you know, you can tell that I'm, I'm no longer dealing with you, and I think that is something that to go toward our kids when they do something we don't like-

    8. BE

      Yes That we can still stay connected to the good kid underneath. This kind of brings it all together. I can tell my kid that behavior wasn't okay.

    9. MT

      Right.

    10. BE

      I can still see the good kid underneath. I'm not so much connecting to the bad behavior, as much as I'm staying connected to my good kid who's struggling.

    11. MT

      Right.

    12. BE

      And then I can act like a coach. To have this behavior change, I have to figure out, well, what's really going on, and then, yeah, kind of help them change through skills, not just probably power and fear.

    13. MT

      Right, and giving it time.

  10. 18:56 – 22:53

    Non-punitive limit-setting: clear language, honest boundaries, and managing the urge to ‘vomit’ frustration

    1. BE

      Is there [laughs] another way, maybe that you've even played around with your kids, of letting your kids know that you do not approve of their behavior that doesn't involve punishment?

    2. MT

      Yes.

    3. BE

      Uh, so how, how... Just 'cause I actually think for a lot of people, they're like, "Are there other options?"

    4. MT

      There, there are. I, I told you when I met you, I never wanted to, like... I, I certainly never wanted to hit my kids.

    5. BE

      Yeah.

    6. MT

      And I just never felt like punishing worked, because I'd been punished, and I'm just like, "I don't know that this works." But I feel like I can let my kids know, "This is not okay."

    7. BE

      Mm-hmm.

    8. MT

      And I don't necessarily need to make them feel like I feel, even if I am embarrassed, you know? It's like I have had my kid do things that were embarrassing or were hard, and I did not feel the need to, like, send him to his room to make him feel worse or take something from him.

    9. BE

      Yeah.

    10. MT

      So I mean, what have I done?

    11. BE

      Yeah.

    12. MT

      What have I done, you know? I might say, I'm trying to think of a specific example.

    13. BE

      But you just said it. A- a- and actually, I think there's a version that's simple that you said but you didn't even realize. You can tell your kid, "That's not okay."

    14. MT

      Yeah.

    15. BE

      "That's not okay with me."

    16. MT

      Right.

    17. BE

      I, I mean, I could go so far permission any parent and say, "I do not approve of this behavior." Like, you can make it-

    18. MT

      Right

    19. BE

      ... crystal clear with your language.

    20. MT

      Right.

    21. BE

      But-

    22. MT

      But you know, but let's just be honest, sometimes that does not feel like enough.

    23. BE

      Well, I, I thought you were gonna say something else. It doesn't feel as good.

    24. MT

      No. [laughs]

    25. BE

      There is something-

    26. MT

      No, it doesn't. [laughs]

    27. BE

      Can we just let ourselves say there is something so cathartic-

    28. MT

      Yes

    29. BE

      ... about no dessert for a week, and you say it, and for the split second-

    30. MT

      Mm-hmm

  11. 22:53 – 24:02

    Why punishment often fails as a teaching tool: after-the-fact consequences don’t prevent in-the-moment impulses

    1. BE

      Uh, this part is always confusing. Like, I guess the theory is if they get so upset after a bad behavior, the next time they're in that situation, they're gonna think about, "Wait, the last time I did this, I got punished." Like, that's where it always a little bit breaks down for me. Like, wait a second, the last time I hit my sister, I didn't get dessert, so I am going to pause right now and not hit my sister. Like, I, I still... I, I feel like we're focusing punishment is on the after behavior.

    2. MT

      Yes.

    3. BE

      And it's hard for me to really make sense of, and then I think my kid before the behavior is gonna access the thing that happened last time after the behavior. Like, but I think that's, we kind of think it works like that.

    4. MT

      That's exactly how we think it works. I mean, as you were explaining that, and I'm like, oh, wow, yeah, I guess, I guess that doesn't make sense.

    5. BE

      Right. Right.

    6. MT

      Yeah.

    7. BE

      'Cause I don't even think it works like that, that well for adults, right?

    8. MT

      No.

    9. BE

      Or it's, it's sophisticated to think my young kid is gonna be able to-

    10. MT

      Right

    11. BE

      ... think about all that behavior-

    12. MT

      Put all of those pieces together, right?

    13. BE

      Right.

    14. MT

      Hold on.

    15. BE

      [laughs]

    16. MT

      The last time I did this, let me s- I'm gonna take a deep breath.

    17. BE

      Henceforth.

    18. MT

      Yeah.

    19. BE

      Henceforth I shall not do.

    20. MT

      Right.

  12. 24:02 – 30:57

    What ‘same team leadership’ looks like in real life: dance/soccer refusal and getting out the door

    1. BE

      Okay. So let's just paint an alternative, and I think what you've said is really poignant. I haven't thought about it. It's, the alternative we're gonna paint isn't, "No big deal. Who cares about soccer? Let's go for ice cream," but any alternative to punishment might feel like that.

    2. MT

      Right.

    3. BE

      But let's, okay, so you go first.

    4. MT

      Okay.

    5. BE

      You sign him up for soccer.

    6. MT

      Yeah.

    7. BE

      You go to the first day of practice And I know you're sounding, I w- I'm not, I'm not judging you

    8. MT

      Yeah, yeah.

    9. BE

      Okay.

    10. MT

      You know?

    11. BE

      What do you do?

    12. MT

      I mean, what am I doing? Because I've been in this situation. It's like I sign up for dance, and we get to dance, and, and, and she's not going inside, and we're not leaving. That's kind of... I, I already committed to the time.

    13. BE

      Oh, yep.

    14. MT

      So that, that is what I'm telling myself, is that I'm going to be here for the 45 minutes. I don't want to be the person that's like, "Oh, you don't feel like it today? We'll just leave." And so I'm like, "All right. Why don't we stand, why don't we, like, look through the window?"

    15. BE

      Okay.

    16. MT

      "See how you feel, and then I will tell you, and then I'm going to go. I'm going to go, and the teacher is going to come get you," and I'm okay with her kind of crying through the class.

    17. BE

      I, by the way, you know your kid.

    18. MT

      Yeah.

    19. BE

      That's the thing.

    20. MT

      Yeah.

    21. BE

      The, you know your kid, and you kind of know, and I, I always love this phrase, like, you, you know her arc.

    22. MT

      Yes.

    23. BE

      So just s- say a little, like, why might this be, I always call it, why is this maybe just part of her arc?

    24. MT

      This, because, [laughs] because as soon as I, as soon as I walk away, her, all of the times this has happened, I get a photo of her [laughs] just more joyous than she was before we left. [laughs]

    25. BE

      And they're like, "Your daughter-

    26. MT

      You-

    27. BE

      "... is amazing in dance class." [laughs]

    28. MT

      And you, I'm, as soon as you walked away, Mom-

    29. BE

      Ugh

    30. MT

      ... she was fine.

  13. 30:57 – 33:18

    Prevention and earlier intervention: stepping in physically and collaboratively before damage happens

    1. MT

      I know. As you're sa- as you're saying this, my brain is just like-

    2. BE

      Yeah, yeah, go, go, go

    3. MT

      ... bubble- bubbling because [laughs] it almost feels like what you're saying is, as a parent, there are things that I can do to either slow myself down or prevent having to lean on just, "That's it. This is over," and what you're saying is, okay, if I prepare, like, a little bit, like you said, if I just, I'm gonna just prepare a little bit. If I know that this is an issue or, you know, if I don't want something broken, I may start the night before or before I get it, "Hey, we're gonna be getting a new..." My kids love to break TVs.

    4. BE

      Right. [laughs]

    5. MT

      I'm sorry.

    6. BE

      Yeah, [laughs] they're just, right.

    7. MT

      Your bank account.

    8. BE

      We're, we're going to be getting a new something.

    9. MT

      Yeah.

    10. BE

      Right, but also what I really love, and I think this one is, is tough for parents because, because of sometimes the age of, like, involving them-

    11. MT

      Yes

    12. BE

      ... of saying-

    13. MT

      Yeah

    14. BE

      ... "What do you think we might do-

    15. MT

      Yeah

    16. BE

      ... um, when we get the new television-

    17. MT

      Yes

    18. BE

      ... that, you know, maybe we won't throw toys in the living room?" You know, it may be what.

    19. MT

      Right.

    20. BE

      You know-

    21. MT

      Yeah

    22. BE

      ... you get them involved, because I will just tell you, that is what happened.

    23. MT

      Yeah.

    24. BE

      My, this is definitely a punishable offense. My daughter threw a toy at the television, and it's done, and I, that's something that I probably would've been punished for.

    25. MT

      Yeah.

    26. BE

      And but it, but I, you know, I definitely didn't do the pre part, but now that I know, when I got the second television, you know, I'm like, "All right. Let's get you involved," and I did not, there was no punishment. I don't, I didn't yell, and it's just like, "Okay, let's not throw toys across the living room."

    27. MT

      And, and this is a hard part, when our kids are young especially, we'll see our kid near the TV throwing something we know they shouldn't throw-

    28. BE

      Mm-hmm

    29. MT

      ... and I'm so guilty of this. Stop throwing that. Please don't throw that. Even though the rule is no having that in the living room.

    30. BE

      Right.

  14. 33:18 – 37:00

    Final myth-bust: the opposite of punishment isn’t permissiveness—it’s same-team, sturdy leadership

    1. BE

      What is kind of the amended, let's see, that's the, the, like, is this true? If I don't punish, I'm permissive. If I don't punish, I'm weak. What's the kind of, yeah, where are we landing here?

    2. MT

      Where are we landing?

    3. BE

      Yeah.

    4. MT

      Yeah.

    5. BE

      Where are we landing this plane?

    6. MT

      If I don't punish, I am building skills. If I don't punish-

    7. BE

      Mm

    8. MT

      ... I am, I don't know, I'm staying connected. I'm-

    9. BE

      Yeah

    10. MT

      ... letting my child know that I am on their team-

    11. BE

      Mm-hmm

    12. MT

      ... and that I'm willing to however long it takes, like you said, if it was swimming, if it was anything else, however long it takes for us to learn this together because I feel like there's all these little things that we are punishing for.

    13. BE

      Yeah.

    14. MT

      And it's just like, you know, that I'm willing to, to stay with you in this until this changes, and eventually it does.

    15. BE

      I, I really like that. I think, trying to think where I'm landing. If I don't punish, or, like, the opposite of punishment isn't being weak and permissive. Maybe the, the true opposite of punishment is same team leadership.

    16. MT

      Yes.

    17. BE

      Right? 'Cause I think that's what I'm left with too. So much of punishing is just reacting to.

    18. MT

      Right.

    19. BE

      And I think the best leaders, they're not reacting to. They're grounded enough to, they make decisions. They, they, they lead. [laughs]

    20. MT

      Right.

    21. BE

      They don't just react, and so I think same team leadership is kind of what the best coaches do. I think it's what the best CEOs do when they're in hard moments, and that feels actually powerful to me.

    22. MT

      Yes.

    23. BE

      And I think that's important, 'cause I do think parents have an appropriate amount of power, not control, but just there's a p- there's an authority.

    24. MT

      For sure.

    25. BE

      And so there's, I think the opposite of punishment is embodying that authority and leading and coaching, being on the same team. So is it true if you don't punish, you're permissive? I'm gonna go first to Myleik to see where she landed, and then I'll share my thoughts. Is it true?

    26. MT

      No, it's not true. It's not true that if you don't punish, you're permissive. If you don't punish, you're taking the time to build skills for change, for the change that you actually wanna see.

    27. BE

      Yeah.

    28. MT

      You're not weak. You're not letting them walk over you. I think you're, you're fine if you don't punish.

    29. BE

      I really don't think I have that much to add. I think that's exactly right. [laughs] I don't think it's true either, and the thing I wanna do, if this resonates, I wanna let you know I'm gonna do this for you, is to me, sometimes the best way of bringing something to life is actually through a specific example. So what I'm gonna do on my blog as a follow-up, you can go to the show notes to get the link, is I'm gonna take a certain situation that drives us crazy at different age groups, so no matter how old your kid is, you'll have an example that makes sense. I'm gonna go through kind of punishment, what feels natural for most of us, permissiveness, and then what I kind of call good inside sturdy leadership, 'cause I think that's what this middle ground is that we're talking about. So you can kind of see it really clearly in very real-life examples. All right. Let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground. [upbeat music] Place a hand on your heart, and let's remind ourselves even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. See you soon. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 37:00

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