Puberty Is Starting Earlier - Here’s What Parents Need to Know

Dr. Becky 0:00 Today's episode is a really good one. I am talking with Dr. Sheryl Ziegler, who is incredible, about puberty. And if you're already thinking, "Oh, my kid's not getting to puberty yet," ah, I think this is a conversation, I know this is a conversation you are going to want to listen to much earlier than you might think. Not from a place of panic, fear-mongering. You need this zero from a place of, "Oh, that's interesting. Oh, I hadn't thought about that before. Oh, I didn't know that. Oh, I actually feel more empowered and confident." That's the feeling I know you're going to get today. That's the feeling I got. And so I am so excited for you to be here. I'm Dr. Becky. This is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this. Hi, Sheryl.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 0:41 Hi. How are you?

Dr. Becky 0:43 I am so excited to talk with you, and w- for so many different reasons. But one of the reasons I truly want to dive into puberty and talking about puberty with kids is, number one, I have a 13 and a 10-year-old. Like, holy moly, puberty.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 1:00 Yep.

Dr. Becky 1:01 And I don't think I've really ever s- said this out loud before. It just hasn't really come up. Like, my own puberty journey, I think truly was atypical in that I went through whatever version of puberty it was, um, very, very late. You and I are still looking for the height component. That one never really hit either of us, the, the growth spurt [laughs] . You know? But, like, I didn't get my period naturally. Like, I have... And I- I can talk about that. It probably won't be the focus of on- our conversation. But the reason I'm starting with it is because, like, even for my daughter, like, it's not even like I have had my own lived experience of being in these age ranges and, like, having my body kind of do the very natural thing it's supposed to do. And so in addition to wanting to always talk about the topics people don't like to get specific about, I just, like, always have a love for those topics, and this is one of them. Like, I really know that my journey was outside the norm, right? And so I want to be so much more equipped. And so that's what we're gonna talk about today. If we all start with, well, what was my puberty experience? Was I on the earlier side? Was I on the later side? What worries did I have? Even what I said to you, it's like the bigger gap probably between whatever our kid is going through and we go through, like, if you have a kid who's on the earlier, even normal side, and you are on the normal later side, like, that's going to feel like a v- a very intense thing for you. Like, oh, why is this starting, right? Or if your kid is late and you are early or mid, like, we all have that baseline, and just starting with that is so important.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 2:37 It's so important, and I think it's important for parents to know, like you're saying, what is normal today?

Dr. Becky 2:42 Yeah.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 2:42 Right? Do you know i- eight years old for a girl is on the earlier side of average, though. If you have an eight-year-old, that is not a reason to necessarily go see an endocrinologist.

Dr. Becky 2:54 Like, if I have an eight-year-old who I'm like, "I feel like my eight-year-old has breast buds"-

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 2:58 Yes

Dr. Becky 2:58 ... or my eight-year-old has pubic hair. Let's just name it.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 3:01 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 3:01 Like, are you saying, like, that, that's early, early normal these days?

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 3:04 E- early normal. Early no- you can go to the pediatrician-

Dr. Becky 3:07 Yeah

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 3:07 ... 'cause you probably will, 'cause it'll... That, you know, that's, like, second grade.

Dr. Becky 3:11 Right.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 3:11 That's second or third grade.

Dr. Becky 3:12 Yeah.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 3:13 And so parents are like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what's going on?" I've had parents even say to me, I see their eight or nine-year-old sitting in my office with clear, you know, small breast buds, and they say, "Oh, no, no, there's nothing going on there." And I'm thinking, wait, really? And this, this is not a one-off. This happens often where they'll say, "No, no, no, like, none of that's going on." And I'm thinking, but I'm looking at her. I can visually see it.

Dr. Becky 3:34 Yeah.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 3:34 Right? So whether it's a block because we're uncomfortable with that, we don't want to acknowledge it, I think that there are parents... And just to even that out, boys, it's nine. So a nine-year-old boy, but the thing is, a nine-year-old boy, his first sign of puberty is gonna be an enlarged scrotum, and his penis grows.

Dr. Becky 3:52 Hmm.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 3:52 And by 9 and 10, you don't, you're not usually giving them baths anymore. You're not seeing it.

Dr. Becky 3:58 Yeah.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 3:58 So they're going through even potentially those physical changes, and parents aren't seeing them. They don't notice it in a boy until he starts smelling or his voice starts cracking-

Dr. Becky 4:07 Yeah

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 4:07 ... or he starts, you know, kind of growing bigger. And by then he's been in puberty, honestly, probably by then, could be two years, even three, if you think of it as puberty starting in the brain.

Dr. Becky 4:17 Right.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 4:17 So it's like when you think of it this way and what's happening, childhood, actual childhood from, like, toddler to childhood, is getting shorter-

Dr. Becky 4:27 Hmm

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 4:27 ... and shorter, which there's some real sadness, even some grief there for some people.

Dr. Becky 4:31 And so just I want to mirror a couple things back to see if I got it right. Number one, just are you saying puberty is starting earlier than it did decades ago?

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 4:40 Yes. Yes. So in the... We'll start 100 years ago. 100 years ago, it's five y- it was five years older. So we're five years younger than 100 years ago. Think about Freud, what he called this stage. He called it latency.

Dr. Becky 4:55 Yeah.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 4:55 Nothing's going on. Everything's relaxed.

Dr. Becky 4:58 Everything's latent.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 4:59 Just-

Dr. Becky 4:59 Yeah

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 4:59 ... it's latent. Take a breath.

Dr. Becky 5:01 [laughs]

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 5:01 And it's like, oh, I'm so sorry to tell you, but you have, like, two years to take a breath, and then it's starting. So-

Dr. Becky 5:07 Huh.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 5:07 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 5:08 So parenting is harder than it was 100 years ago.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 5:10 It, it really-

Dr. Becky 5:10 We don't have the latent period [laughs] anymore.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 5:12 Yes. There's no, like, maybe when they're six and seven, maybe.

Dr. Becky 5:16 Right.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 5:17 But, like, the other thing, so since the 1980s, the stat is every decade, three months younger-

Dr. Becky 5:24 Wow

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 5:25 ... per decade.

Dr. Becky 5:26 Yeah.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 5:26 And it's continuing to trend that way, and the pandemic is what made this, for me, go beyond just, oh, this is a class that I really love giving, to actually we're, this is part of a mental health crisis.

Dr. Becky 5:39 Yes.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 5:39 And this is something I don't think that I can just keep to myself. This has to get bigger because endocrinologists, just like psychologists were saying, obviously, there's a huge mental health crisis, endocrinologists were reporting, "There's all of these young kids coming into my office who have breast buds and who are in puberty. Why is this happening?"

Dr. Becky 5:58 Yeah.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 5:59 So it really all kind of came together about four or five years ago.

Dr. Becky 6:03 Wow. And so puberty is starting earlier. That's a fact. Girls, eight, early normal in 2025. Boys, nine.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 6:13 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 6:13 And at the same time, the eight and nine-year-old by gender, one is gonna be a lot more visible, which makes me think might parents worry more, "Oh my God, my girl's starting puberty so early," even more than their sons?

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 6:24 Yes. And the data says that it is more worrisome for girls.

Dr. Becky 6:29 Mm.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 6:29 The list of potential negative outcomes or things that put them at greater risk is actually horrifying. It really is increased depression, increased anxiety, increased sexualization, earlier sexual activity or high-risk behavior, substance use, cancer. I mean, it's a long list. I, I've narrowed it down. I've consolidated it to, like, 10 factors. Whereas boys, and this is really worth thinking about, they get praised for earlier puberty. You're the tallest in the class. You're the one to get muscles first. You're probably going to be the fastest. So you're taller, faster, stronger. In our society, that's praised. That's, we look at that. You see a girl who's nine or 10 and she's developed, we start sexualizing her really early.

Dr. Becky 7:19 The things we need to be aware of for early puberty for girls versus boys, right? But a- and what you said really resonated, and how boys, it's kind of these traits that we praise. For girls it can be hyper-sexualization at a young age. But I think there's another layer, which is that we don't often talk about puberty, right? Like, I often think, what would it be like? Like, can you... I don't know if you thought about it this way. Imagine nobody telling you any part of what pregnancy would be like. Like, can you imagine, like, literally you're like, "What's happening to my belly?" Like, if, if nobody told you your, this whole part of your body was going to get very large, your breasts were gonna change. I mean, obviously anything about the arc of pregnancy, can you imagine how much worse than it already is kind of prenatal and postpartum depression would be, right?

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 8:07 Look, I just got, I just got the chills thinking about it.

Dr. Becky 8:09 Right?

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 8:09 Like, I've never thought of that analogy, but that is so true.

Dr. Becky 8:13 And that's what we do, right? That's basically what we do, right? And now that I'm in it with two of my kids, like, having your body physically change, it, it, it feels like this deep existential crisis. Like, a- am I me? Like, a- am I gonna survive this? What is... Literally, people are like, "My kid likes to be in control." They, they won't let their sister go and, you know, play the board game first. Okay, well, then think about that child when puberty isn't explained to them, [laughs] and that child has breast buds or suddenly they're like, "My scrotum is bigger." Like, that is going to feel ridiculously out of control. And so when I think about the risk to girls, and I don't know, I've never considered this, and I don't know if you have. Maybe we could just talk about it. Could any of the increased risks for early puberty for girls be doubled, quadrupled really by the fact that when you don't talk about it with girls, and given that for girls it is so public and so obvious to everyone else, that

Dr. Becky 9:15 that could be part of the risk factor? Can we reduce some of the early puberty risk for girls through helping parents feel more equipped to deal with their awkwardness, preview what's going to happen, talk to their kids? Like, could that actually reduce the risk?

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 9:29 So that is like, that's, like, the spirit of this book. This book is, like, the roadmap to... It initially, right, in 2021 it was like we have to do something about the teen mental health crisis, and I'm like, but what, what happens in the stage before? And it's, like, exactly what you're saying. So for a girl, if she knew, it's not just her education, which is absolutely needed, but this is where it starts. I have this little part in the book where I say, "Here's how to talk to people about not commenting on your daughter's body, and here's a script." Literally, here's what you say to Grandma and Grandpa. Here's what you say to the coach. You know, you say to a coach something like, "Hey, you know, uh, you know, whatever. Jane's gonna be coming to your practice today. You know, there's a good chance she might be the tallest girl that you're gonna see. I'd really appreciate it if you don't comment about her physical body. She is still a nine-year-old girl, and the world already tells her over and over, and so there's these expectations on her. I just don't wanna put them on her." I mean, when I practice it, it's easy for me 'cause I've practiced it, right? But if I just said to you, "Hey, Becky, so the next time you go somewhere, just tell the coach, just tell him to stop commenting on your kid's body," like, you'd be like, "All right. How am I gonna say this?" And it's like we, we have to model it for them, too. Even if in the moment we walk in and Grandma and Grandpa say, "Whoa, look at you. You're such a young lady," first of all, they know what that means. You're such a young lady means you're sexually developing, right? And so, "You're such a young lady. Look at you in that dress," right? If we say things like, "You know what? This past week there was a spelling bee at school and they got second place," or, "We just got, you know, our, our itinerary for this camp. Then they're gonna try diving off a diving board for the first time," you switch the conversation. They are a child. We're not commenting on our, on their bodies that they have no control over. We're gonna talk about childlike things. I think that even could literally change, 'cause I say this is a societal issue. This is not for just parents. Oh, just parents alone are gonna change how we talk about puberty. This is a bigger issue. It's a systemic kinda issue.

Dr. Becky 11:29 Yeah. Yeah. So I, I think that's so powerful for parents because I think sometimes we often think, like, I have to say something back to that person, and maybe we do, but maybe we don't. Maybe it's actually just about shifting the focus, right? I think our kids, uh, like, our, our kids notice what we value and how we think about them, not by what we say but by the questions we ask, by the conversations at dinner, right? And so even shifting to, oh, ask Jane about, you know, her piano recital, um, it is, you know, going to have a profound impact, and whether or not you tell off your in-law in the moment, like, that, that's up to you.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 12:03 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 12:03 Like, based on your, your [laughs]

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 12:04 [laughs] You know, whatever feels right. Um-

Dr. Becky 12:07 Don't...

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 12:07 I mean, it, it- you're exactly right.

Dr. Becky 12:08 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 12:09 Like, you don't have to be confrontational. If you're proactive, like, you can be sh- really, really proactive and say, like, "Hey, you're, you guys are coming over. You know, Jane's 10 or Jane's nine. She's growing a lot."

Dr. Becky 12:19 Yeah.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 12:19 Like, we're just, we're not focusing on that though.

Dr. Becky 12:21 We talk about that.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 12:21 There's so many amazing cool things she's trying right now. Let's just focus on that. That can be proactive.

Dr. Becky 12:25 Yeah.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 12:25 That doesn't sound, I think, super confrontational. Or just in the moment, people are gonna throw you off for a loop. They're just going to. They're gonna say something, you know? And just parents having it in the backseat, like, you know, in their back pocket, like, "Yeah, this is what I'm gonna say in response," becomes easier. And then Dad is comfortable with it, and then all of a sudden, you know, Aunt is comfortable with it. And everybody gets on board. But it does probably have to start with a parent or, like, the primary caregiver being aware to do it.

Dr. Becky 12:54 Yeah. And so there's how we respond to other people talking about it, and then I guess, I, I think the thing I, I want us to dig in a little bit more, I, I have some thoughts about it too, is just how we talk to our kids about it, separate from, you know, the coach or the in-laws who might say inappropriate things. So let's jump off with this. What's scarier to a kid, puberty itself or not feeling prepared for puberty?

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 13:20 Yeah. I love that you asked it just like that 'cause I just did a segment yesterday about talking to kids about hate crimes and prejudice, and one of the things I said was it is scarier for kids to not know, right, rather than to know. You- it's anticipatory anxiety.

Dr. Becky 13:37 Yes.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 13:37 I talk about in the book, the anticipation of is oftentimes worse than-

Dr. Becky 13:42 Yeah

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 13:42 ... hey, this is what it's gonna be like. And I always say to the kids, like I say to the girls, I just say, I only do it with girls s- so far. I'm gonna develop a boys class, but not yet. So I say to the girls, "You guys, nature's so amazing." And this is how I talk, by the way, like the way you're gonna hear my voice change. Like, "You guys, nature is so amazing. It gives us, like, two, three years to go through this. Can you imagine? It's like, it's low and slow, and sometimes there might be, like, a little, we call them spurts, but, like, they're short. And then it just goes back again to low and slow. And before you know it, you guys are 15 and 16, and you're all caught up with each other."

Dr. Becky 14:16 Mm.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 14:16 That's my tone. That's, like, my casualness around it so that they don't think... I know some people will joke, like, "My kid went to sleep, and they woke up six inches taller." That didn't literally happen, but I totally get what they mean. It's probably more like your kid went to sleep day one of summer, and by first day of school the next year, yeah, they might have grown three or four inches. That's true. It feels dramatic, but it's not literally. Right? So the way that we talk about it, and, and it's like what you started with, we have triggers. We have, and this is not just women. We have women. We have men, whether it's their menstrual cycle, whether it's, you know, just their brain, their moods.

Dr. Becky 14:53 Yeah.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 14:53 Why was I yelling at you? Why did I tell you I hated you? Oh my gosh, you're like my favorite person ever. Why don't I wanna be best friends? Why don't I wanna play with dolls anymore? When I say that one in my classes, there'll always be, I'd say, like, a couple of girls, one to three girls, that will cry. And they'll be like, "But I wanna keep playing with dolls." And it's like-

Dr. Becky 15:12 Ugh

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 15:12 ... heartbreaking-

Dr. Becky 15:13 Ugh

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 15:14 ... 'cause they know. They feel like the day puberty's obvious or I get my period, I gotta put the toys away.

Dr. Becky 15:20 Mm.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 15:21 And it's like that for a parent too to say, "No, you don't. But you know what? Your brain, it's got all these hormones flooding in it, and so that's why one day you might feel like throwing those dolls away, and the next day you feel like you secretly wanna take them out and play with them." And they need to know the brain part too.

Dr. Becky 15:37 That's exactly right. And I- and to flesh out that arc, 'cause I think probably it's like one day it's like, "I don't wanna play with these dolls anymore. Dolls are stupid. I throw them away." The next day I yell at my mom for throwing away my dolls.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 15:48 Yes.

Dr. Becky 15:48 That's probably what's gonna happen. [laughs]

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 15:49 Right. [laughs] Yes, exactly.

Dr. Becky 15:50 And the mom just has to be like, "Ugh, you wish you had them." Like, don't be right. Don't-

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 15:55 Right

Dr. Becky 15:56 ... "You threw them away." I've done that too many times. It just, it doesn't tend to end up in a good place. Um, but that, that's what it is. I feel like that's so much of puberty. I don't want my dolls anymore. I act on it. The next day I wish I had them. I can't tolerate that feeling. I act it out. I look at my mom. I blame my mom for doing it, even though obviously she didn't even know I threw out my dolls in the first place. [laughs]

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 16:15 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 16:15 Right? And all of this in kind of 24 hours. A- and the other, the other thing that I think really guides so much of my good decisions as a parent, never my bad decisions, um, is that, like, kind of information doesn't scare kids. It, it, it never scares kids when it's delivered from a trusted, loving adult. But noticing changes without having information terrifies kids and adults. So you could think about this in an environment unrelated to puberty. You hear Uncle whoever, cancer, chemotherapy, a few weeks to live, and everyone's like, "Oh, he's fine." You're like, well, I, I notice those things, and I don't have a story to understand it. That's scary and unformulated and just free floats as anxiety. And I think about that example and talk about it with parents all the time. But then what if instead of the changes being random snippets from a conversation about your uncle, it's the body you live in having changes you didn't expect? I, I, I mean, it's literally more visceral. Your, this is the thing we are in every day is our body. And so yes, I think, you know, it's interesting women-wise, right? Puberty, pregnancy, menopause.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 17:29 Perimenopause.

Dr. Becky 17:29 We have more stages than that. Perimenopause. Like, on, on these ends, the puberty and the perimenopause, we're maybe having our day of, like, let's explain these to people. Like, having these things just happen to you, right, we have work to do in pregnancy too, but at least we tell women that their body will change. Like, no one today is like, "What is happening to my, you know, belly button?" And so yes, talking to kids, and I, I know you, uh, and maybe we can transition to this, talking to kids matters. Helping kids anticipate it and knowing this, it almost preloads them with a, "Oh, at least I knew this was gonna happen." Like, what human doesn't like that?

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 18:06 Oh, yeah. Can you... Like, I don't know if it- if, like, as you're listening, think of a, a time maybe you did tell your kid something, or the kid that comes over that's like, this kid is so savvy. They know, like, all these things going on, right?

Dr. Becky 18:16 Yeah.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 18:17 And they're just like, "Oh, yeah, I already know that."

Dr. Becky 18:19 Yep.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 18:19 Yep, yep. And they, and they literally... Remember, this is industry versus inferiority, 6 to 12. This is like they wanna be good at stuff.

Dr. Becky 18:27 Yep.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 18:27 They wanna learn stuff. So if you go, "Oh, yeah, and by the way, this happens and that happens, and, like, you have these mood swings, or your body changes this way," they will walk around, like, head held high. "I know what's happening." They'll, they'll be proud.

Dr. Becky 18:40 Yeah.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 18:40 And that's the thing. It's like the de-stigmatizing-

Dr. Becky 18:43 Yes

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 18:43 ... of puberty, of talking about things that are awkward or uncomfortable. Like, I wanna eventually get through that, where this isn't an awkward conversation. This is, like perimenopause and menopause are having their moments, it's like, that's amazing. Now we know. I feel more empowered. I know what to do. I know what kind of doctor to go to. I know at least-

Dr. Becky 19:04 I don't feel crazy. I don't feel crazy

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 19:05 ... I don't feel crazy. This is normal. This is nor- Oh, wait, other marriages go through this? Oh, wait, other friendships go through this during this time?

Dr. Becky 19:14 Yep.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 19:14 Like, if we don't talk about it, and we had this probably for hundreds of years, but at least for the last hundred years, where women weren't talking about what was happening to them, they were suffering in silence.

Dr. Becky 19:23 Yeah.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 19:23 And these kids maybe aren't, quote, "suffering in silence," but they're certainly... They're going through things. They're scared in silence, and then what do they do 'cause they're kids and they're curious? They go online.

Dr. Becky 19:34 Yep.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 19:34 They're gonna find the answer, the way we did. We went to older brothers and sisters.

Dr. Becky 19:39 Totally.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 19:40 They're gonna go online, and it's pretty easy to get in there and just ask the most embarrassing question.

Dr. Becky 19:44 Ugh, yes, and, and I think, you know, we want our kids to be curious about their bodies.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 19:49 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 19:50 Like, you can't ever get mastery over anything you're not curious about. So, like, before you get mastery over something, you have to have curiosity. So curiosity is a good thing, and curiosity's really powerful. Like, once curiosity about anything is there, it's going to move its way into knowledge and figuring it out. And one way, if we don't talk to our kids, is the random kid on the bus or the internet. I think the other way, and this goes back to the data, is behavior.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 20:18 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 20:18 It's just you act. We act out what we don't have language for. Literally, that's what... Again, if, like, I was, I don't know, in a foreign country, any country that speaks any other language but English, and nobody understood me, do you know what I would do to communicate with them? I would act it out because I don't have verbal language. And so I think there's this fear from parents, and I'm curious you think about this. Like, I don't wanna share... And I, I actually, I asked some questions to our Good Inside community, and they shared some of their fears or their barriers. And one big concern is, "I don't wanna share too much too soon," or, "If, if, if my kid asks me about one thing," like, for example, I have a good story about this. Like, my kid asked me about a 69, but they don't even know what oral sex is yet. So how, how do I speak about this? And I think there's this fear that if I share information, kind of my kid is going to act out more. But I do find this idea of when we have language for things, we all tend to act out less.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 21:25 Yeah, I mean, my wheels are turning as you're talking. Like, I... The first time that notion really, really came to me was when we started seeing suicide rates go younger and younger, and all of a sudden we have 10 to 14-year-old actual category. And that was the time where I would hear from parents like, "No way. I would never talk to my kids about this. I'm not gonna give them ideas." And I really do understand that fear.

Dr. Becky 21:52 Yeah.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 21:53 Like, ugh, I mean, this is not something anybody wants to talk about. However, the data consistently shows the more we talk about it, the more we give them language, the more permission we have to say, like, "Yeah, there's some really hard days. And you know what? Life is kind of like this ride. Do you know that? Like, one day you can feel up, and the next day you can feel down." And we then all of a sudden, we open up this space. It doesn't give them ideas. It gives them psychological safety to say, "Hey, guess what? This is one of those days where I just feel like what is the point of life?"

Dr. Becky 22:24 Yeah.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 22:24 And then you've talked about it already, so you're not gonna be reactive as the parent. And this could be about any topic, right? And you just kind of go, like, "All right, I'm gonna meet you right where we created this space, right where you're at right now, and this is gonna be safe for us." If you don't have these conversations, they will be happening elsewhere, and it won't be you. And I like to say, like, up until about 11 or 12, you are the single, you, the parent, are the single most influential, most important person in that kid's life. And 13, 14 comes, and it's their friends.

Dr. Becky 22:57 Yep.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 22:57 And they're looking for their identity. So if they don't have that with you, the parent, now, we don't know where they're gonna go, but their curiosity's gonna be there.

Dr. Becky 23:06 Yes. Okay, so let's talk about awkwardness. So most parents, right? So I, I did a poll on Instagram, so I'm gonna read some of these stats to you. Um, did you have an adult talk to you about puberty, okay?

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 23:20 No.

Dr. Becky 23:20 Right. [laughs]

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 23:21 So easy.

Dr. Becky 23:22 17% said yes, a lot of things. 41% said some things, but not others. 42%, definitely not. Are you crazy? That's what- [laughs]

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 23:32 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 23:32 Okay. Okay, and then what is your comfort level talking about puberty with your kids? 7%, ah, I'm terrified. 15%, pretty uncomfortable. 44%, this is the biggest, comfortable with some things, but definitely not others. And then the rest felt comfortable. So let's talk about that 67%, because to me, even if you're comfortable, but, but definitely if you're in the 67%, vast majority, awkwardness is coming along for the journey of talking to your kid. Like, it's kind of like when someone's like, "I wanna be really motivated to get out of bed in the morning, and then I'm gonna go to the gym." Like, if that's me, I'm like, well, that day's not coming. Like, I never wake up. Being like, "I cannot wait to go to the gym" [laughs] Best decision ever. Like, I gotta get there with the lack of motivation. So I think for parents, this idea of, like, how do I overcome the awkwardness and then talk to my kid? Like, I, I, I believe, I don't know if you do, like, the awkwardness, especially if you are someone where someone never talked to you, it's a sign that you have literally never had someone in the entire lineage of your family put language to this. So awkwardness, you know, is kind of the sign of newness. So how do you... You, you work with so many families around this. Like, when a family-- when a parent says like, "I, I just feel too awkward," or, "I'm gonna be awkward," or, "I'm gonna get it wrong," or, "I'm going to fumble," which I think everyone listening to this is like, "Oh, yeah, I wanna know Dr. Ziegler's answer to this," how do we deal with that?

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 25:02 Yeah. Well, the first thing I wanna say is n- no parent goes into this saying, "Oh, I'm gonna skip an entire developmental stage and not tell my kid all this important stuff." No parent, right? Every parent is like, "I wanna do the best that I can do." And you know, I know the best you can do is usually as far as you've come, right?

Dr. Becky 25:24 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 25:24 You can only take a kid as far as you've gone. Like, if you're not willing to say... Like, I tell in the book that my own son, who was 11 at the time, was in fifth grade, he comes home from his sex ed talk and I'm thinking like, "I'm sure I've covered," like I feel like I've covered most bases, but I probably didn't cover everything. So he walks in confident and it wasn't, quote, "awkward," right? And I'm like, "How was it today?" And he was like, "It was fine." And I go, "Did you learn anything that we haven't talked about?" And he's like, "Yeah." Now he says that confidently.

Dr. Becky 25:55 Ooh.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 25:55 He's like, "Yeah." And I'm like, "Ah, cannot wait to know." He's like, "You didn't tell me that I could wake up in the morning with wet stuff in my pants." Yep, didn't. I didn't. Didn't talk to him about wet dreams.

Dr. Becky 26:05 Mm, classic wet dream conversation.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 26:08 Wet dreams, yeah.

Dr. Becky 26:08 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 26:08 I mean, so for the percentage of people on your little poll that said, "Yes, I'm confident," are they talking about masturbation, pornography, wet dreams, ejaculation? Like, there's this-- there's a lot of levels. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 26:21 Yep.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 26:22 Like, there's one thing to say, "Hey, bud, you're gonna grow taller and get a deeper voice, and it might crack, and like, you're gonna- muscles are gonna get bigger," and then to continue to progress. "Oh, you're gonna s- maybe start liking people in a different way than you have before." Okay, that gets a little harder. I've done this many times with thousands of kids.

Dr. Becky 26:38 Yeah.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 26:38 So I know like, I know where, like, the entry point is, like, pretty comfortable in the room, and then I know when people start fidgeting. So I forgot what your original question even is, but like-

Dr. Becky 26:49 Theawk- yeah

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 26:49 ... I'm sucked into the world of thinking about that.

Dr. Becky 26:50 Yeah. No, it's great. So a, a, a parent's listening to this and is saying, "Okay," like, "I hear this and I do want to talk-"

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 26:57 Oh, right

Dr. Becky 26:57 ... "to my son," let's say that-

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 26:59 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 26:59 ... "about the fact that, like, he is probably gonna have a wet dream, or he might," or what that is.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 27:04 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 27:04 Right? Or let's say I wanna talk to my daughter about masturbation, right?

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 27:10 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 27:10 Any of these kind of we're now level three.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 27:12 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 27:12 We're past level one and two, okay?

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 27:14 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 27:14 Um, and they say to you or me, like, "I, I feel... I, I, I feel awkward," or, "I'm g- I'm going to be awkward. I, I am telling you-"

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 27:23 [laughs] Right

Dr. Becky 27:23 ... "Sheryl, I will be awkward." How do you, how do you help? Like, h- how do we help people through that?

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 27:27 Yeah. I think, I think you think about your style, right? What works for you? And I w- like let's just pretend, like let's role play.

Dr. Becky 27:34 Yeah, let's do it.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 27:34 Like you asked me, literally you. I would say, "Okay, so what's your style with your kid? Like, do you think a book is gonna be good? Do you think you wanna watch a movie? Do you want to let him know, like, that you wanna have some talk or do you wanna just kinda casually bring it up?" First give me the setting.

Dr. Becky 27:48 Mm.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 27:49 Like tell me your style.

Dr. Becky 27:50 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 27:50 Right? And then I don't know, like tell me truthfully, what would be your style?

Dr. Becky 27:53 Well, I, I, I feel like I h- I have a lot of very... I, I feel actually fairly comfortable-

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 28:00 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 28:00 ... talking to my kids after I've done some work with my own puberty and just feeling like-

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 28:04 Yeah

Dr. Becky 28:05 ... I find this stuff so empowering to talk about.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 28:08 Are you an experience sharer then? Is that like the way you come in maybe?

Dr. Becky 28:11 Sometimes I feel like some of my best conversations about these types of topics are like while. Like while we take a walk, while we're in the car. Like not the like, "Hey, I'm gonna sit across from you and look at you in the eyes and talk about masturbation." Like I don't think anyone-

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 28:25 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 28:25 I don't know. That's not, you know?

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 28:26 Right.

Dr. Becky 28:26 So like kind of a kind of there's a third there. There's something else that's happening.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 28:32 Yeah. So like then I would be like, "Okay, great. So let's make sure that that's the setting. Okay, check." And then I would say to them, "Say the word or the topic out loud." And like most people will start to laugh. And I'm like, "Cool, get it out right now."

Dr. Becky 28:46 Yep.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 28:46 Like, "Just get it out."

Dr. Becky 28:48 Yep.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 28:48 And that'll lead to, they'll say to me, they'll say-

Dr. Becky 28:50 Don't bury the lead.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 28:51 Right.

Dr. Becky 28:51 Just like put it out there.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 28:52 Just put it out there. Like, "Come on, let's do it." And so like, "Get your own comfortable," and then they start laughing and they're like, "Ah," and they're like, "I, I've never said these words to my kid before."

Dr. Becky 28:59 Yeah.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 28:59 I'm like, "Okay, great. Get it out with me."

Dr. Becky 29:01 Yeah.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 29:01 And then what I say to them is, "Do you know you, A, you don't have to have the answers to every question. B, you do not need to be smooth. You are not..." You can say to them, yeah, on, on a walk in your case, like, "You know, I know we were watching..." I always like a little bit of a context.

Dr. Becky 29:19 Okay.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 29:19 "We were watching that movie last night. Remember that kid?"

Dr. Becky 29:21 Yeah.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 29:21 "He, he started this tall and then he was 15 when he was done. There were all these changes in him. You know, like one of the things that can happen, I don't know, do the kids talk at school at all about like things like masturbation or whatever?" And you might get initial like, "Mom." And you'd be like, "I know it's uncomfortable. It's a little bit uncomfortable for me too, but you know what? I love you so much that I'm willing to have this uncomfortable conversation."

Dr. Becky 29:41 Yes.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 29:42 "And if I can be brave, you can be brave."

Dr. Becky 29:44 Yep.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 29:45 Now you're at their level. Like, you know, I'm not gonna say like I'm beyond awkward and I can't deal. Then I shouldn't be having it. But I'm a little bit uncomfortable.

Dr. Becky 29:51 Yeah.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 29:52 Say it to your kid.

Dr. Becky 29:53 I, and, and you're-- there's something I love that you're doing there. You're all kind of like we're in this together. Like it's not like-

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 29:58 We are

Dr. Becky 29:58 ... I am like person up here giving you some lecture and you're feeling awkward, so I love that. And I'm curious what you think about this, 'cause one of the things I tell parents a lot, because talking to parents about how to talk to their kids, yeah, about sex, about pleasure, I, I love these topics too, and I find just saying to your kid in the start, "Look, I might be awkward-" ... while I talk about this. But let me tell you why from the start. It's not because talking about it is wrong, it's not 'cause your interest is wrong, it's not because a question you asked me is wrong. Truly, like, no one talked to me about this, and I'm kind of the first person in the family to talk about this, and so new things tend to feel awkward, so that's why. A- and, and then, 'cause I do feel like sometimes unintentionally kids can code our awkwardness as wrong.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 30:44 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 30:44 Like, not that we're wrong, but that the topic is bad and shameful, when I think always awkwardness means new. It could be wrong, but it- it's definitely just always new. So I feel like, again, preloading that to a kid, it- it helps kind of, again, it helps contextualize your awkwardness-

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 31:01 I love-

Dr. Becky 31:01 ... if that happens. [laughs]

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 31:02 I love, love, love that so much, and I also love, like, I find this line, I've started to use it more, and I'm like, ooh, this is very effective in my own parenting-

Dr. Becky 31:10 Yeah

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 31:10 ... just to say, "You know, I've never had a 12-year-old boy before. Like, you're my first 12-year-old boy," or, "I've never had, or I've never had this conversation."

Dr. Becky 31:18 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 31:18 And so, like, almost asking them for some grace before we even start. Like, I might be a little bit weird, and I definitely don't know all the answers. Like, I want you to ask me all your questions, and I promise I'll get them-

Dr. Becky 31:29 Yes

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 31:29 ... but I'm also not just gonna make up answers.

Dr. Becky 31:31 Yep.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 31:31 Right? And that, if you set the tone from the beginning, all of a sudden I'm already calmer, 'cause you're already presuming you are not the expert, you don't know everything, but like, hey, let's do this together.

Dr. Becky 31:41 Love that.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 31:41 And it's like everybody's stress comes down, 'cause they are gonna ask you something you are not gonna know the answer to, or you're not positive.

Dr. Becky 31:47 Yeah, or I- I find a line that I've used a lot, sometimes it's true, and sometimes, like, I just need a, I just need a moment-

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 31:53 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 31:53 ... you know, is, "That's a great question, and it deserves a great answer. I'm gonna come back to you." And then sometimes I'm like, [gasps] okay, I didn't know my daughter was gonna come off the bus and ask me these questions, like, w- in public in our, you know, our lobby.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 32:05 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 32:05 Um, and so sometimes I've used that when I'm literally... And it could be something about history, or it could be something about the body. And sometimes I think I know the answer, I'm just not prepared to say it-

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 32:15 Totally

Dr. Becky 32:16 ... in that moment.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 32:16 Yes.

Dr. Becky 32:16 And either way, that- that- that's proved to be [laughs] useful.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 32:20 I love that.

Dr. Becky 32:21 You know? [laughs]

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 32:21 "That's a great question that deserves a great answer, and I probably only have, like, a mediocre answer for you right now, so, like, give me like an hour-

Dr. Becky 32:27 Yeah

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 32:27 ... or give me till tomorrow." I love that.

Dr. Becky 32:29 Give me a quick text with, a- a quick text with my mom friends. [laughs]

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 32:33 Totally. I need five minutes. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 32:36 [laughs]

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 32:36 Let me ChatGPT this. Let me, let me figure this out more.

Dr. Becky 32:38 There's pep talk in the mirror, I can do this, I can feel awkward, I hear Sheryl and Becky's words.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 32:42 Totally.

Dr. Becky 32:42 Yeah, and we can do this. Yeah.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 32:43 I love it. I hope people listening are like that relief, 'cause I think there's pressure-

Dr. Becky 32:47 Ugh

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 32:47 ... on parents that we have to know everything-

Dr. Becky 32:50 Yes

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 32:50 ... and we have to know the perfect thing to say. Like-

Dr. Becky 32:53 Ugh

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 32:53 ... by the way, the greatest thing to say maybe to one of my kids isn't the greatest thing for yours, or vice versa, right?

Dr. Becky 32:59 Totally.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 32:59 Like, you just don't, you gotta try this stuff out. And by the way, if someone, I know someone listening right now is like, "Okay, I tried this, and it went horribly wrong. I already... Like, what can I do?" And I'm always like, "You repair it. 'Hey, you know the other day when we talked about that thing?' Like, 'I did not even know what I was talking about,' or, 'I got so uncomfortable, I didn't even see that coming. I thought about it. You deserve more. Let... Can I go back? Can I redo that?'"

Dr. Becky 33:24 So beautiful.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 33:25 That is so humbling, and kids, there- there's just, there's a time where, yes, you're the authority, you're the one in charge, but there's also a time, especially when you're bonding and attaching to your kid during such a critical time, to just be like, "I am learning right alongside with you. This is amazing for me." And they might be like, "Well, it doesn't feel so amazing for me." I know, I can imagine that, but it's kind of really cool for me.

Dr. Becky 33:48 [laughs]

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 33:48 And let them see your excitement-

Dr. Becky 33:49 Yes

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 33:49 ... and also let them see your celebration. Your body is doing amazing things that deserve celebrating.

Dr. Becky 33:57 Yeah.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 33:57 How cool is this?

Dr. Becky 33:59 Oh.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 34:00 You know, just the energy and the excitement around your body's doing what it's supposed to do. It's like when you're growing a baby-

Dr. Becky 34:06 Yeah

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 34:06 ... and someone's like, "Look at you."

Dr. Becky 34:07 Mm.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 34:07 Right? Your belly's growing, and all these things. And you might at the moment be like, "Well, it doesn't feel so great. My feet are swollen, I'm nauseous, I've thrown up," but your body is doing what it's supposed to do. That's a beautiful thing. Like, it's just such a, it's like a l- it's like a hug. It's like a warm hug.

Dr. Becky 34:22 Yes.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 34:22 Like, it just feels comforting.

Dr. Becky 34:24 Oh, well, this conversation has felt like a warm hug to me. I know it will feel like a warm hug to everyone listening, and I- I think you and I have, uh, such a similar pep talk to people. Like, you're amazing for listening to this. It clearly says you're the type of parent who wants to have conversations that probably weren't had with you. That's the best it gets. In terms of what happens next-

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 34:47 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 34:48 ... it's going to be awkwardness, it's going to be a repair, it's going to be, "Oh, remember when I said that was a disgusting question? That, that, that was a me thing. Let me explain that. Let me try again." Right? Like-

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 34:57 Or an inappropriate question, right?

Dr. Becky 34:59 Inappropriate question.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 34:59 For some people, oh, I s- we didn't talk, this would've been forbidden.

Dr. Becky 35:02 Yes.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 35:03 Right? If you said, kinda gave your kid the message like, "We don't talk about that," or-

Dr. Becky 35:06 Yeah

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 35:07 ... like, and now you're thinking about it and you're like, "Why'd I do that?" Just go back.

Dr. Becky 35:10 100%, and look, this is as good inside as it gets, is there's nothing more powerful than repair.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 35:16 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 35:16 You wanna have a good moment with your kid? Mess up, check, we've all done that-

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 35:20 Yeah

Dr. Becky 35:20 ... and then repair.

Dr. Sheryl Ziegler 35:21 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 35:21 That's gonna be the best moment of your day. And so this follows that guideline, too. So thank you. You are incredible. I hope this is the first of many conversations we have. I think I speak for everyone listening. Um, also in knowing that they just want more of you. So, um, thank you for all of your important work and for just the way you share, um, so relatable, so usable, so, so deeply human. Um, and I'm, I'm really grateful. I was about to say that I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. I have a feeling you enjoyed this episode as much as I did, and I wanna make it really easy for you to do what I know you naturally want to do next, which is go get Sheryl's book. So this is The Crucial Years. It i- is just something that should be a staple in your home, and is so, so valuable. So here's The Crucial Years. And as always, if you liked this podcast episode, the podcast in general, please rate and review it. I read every single thing you write, and it actually really contributes to what I do next. Your voice really matters here. I'm so grateful to you. [outro music]