Raising Kids in a World of Smartphones & AI

1. 0:00 – 1:59

   Why tech boundaries are the parenting hot spot (and why guidelines help)

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy0:00

      Managing technology is one of the most popular topics I'm asked about all the time. When should I give my kid a phone? What do I do about phones and bedtime, and what should I do to stay connected with my kid in a house where, honestly, me and my partner, we're on our phones a lot, too? Jean Twenge just wrote a new book, Ten Rules for Raising Kids in a High-Tech World. She's researched kids' mental health, development, technology for years, and I was so excited to read what she had to say. In this conversation, we're going to talk about some of the guidelines she's come up with based on all her research. And as you listen, what I'd encourage you to do is to think about, "What if this resonates with me? Is it helpful for me to have specific guidelines that maybe I haven't already developed in my house? Does that give me a foundation so I'm not kind of just deciding one thing one day and another thing a day after that?" I know this conversation is going to be really valuable, and it's going to lead to a lot of important conversations in your own home. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this. Hi, Jean.

   2. JTDr. Jean Twenge1:11

      Hi.

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:12

      So happy to have you on here today. Um, really, really looking forward to talking about your brand-new book, Ten Rules for Raising Kids in a High-Tech World. I was just telling you I was reading this book, and it just brought up so many actually important conversations I think to have with my kids of all ages and really just makes so concrete so many of the things that, as you know, parents are thinking about all the time. So, let's just start. Tell me a little bit about kind of the things that led you to write this book. Like, you're in this world of parenting, kids, mental health, technology. Give us a little insight into what was going on in your world that kind of led to this book that we have on the shelves today.

2. 1:59 – 3:36

   Jean Twenge’s research-to-real-life collision: from iGen to parenting three teens

   1. JTDr. Jean Twenge1:59

      Yeah, so I've been researching adolescent mental health and its relationship to technology for about a decade. I published a book in 2017 called iGen, uh, which was about Gen Z, and hypothesized that, you know, that huge increase that was starting to happen in teen depression might be linked to smartphones and social media. But at the time, my kids were pretty young. My oldest was 10. My youngest was five. I have three children, all girls. And, you know, we hadn't really had a whole lot of, "Oh, everybody's got a smartphone yet, uh, a- a- already," or, you know, "Mom, I really wanna be on social media." But that started to happen over the next few years, and so I really had this collision between my research life and then my re- res- my, my life as a mom of, um, now three teenagers, and that's really where this book came from, that and giving talks to lots of parents, even giving talks at corporate events when by the third question, it was, "What do I do about my kids and their technology use?"

   2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy3:07

      What were some of the themes you were hearing over and over from parents?

   3. JTDr. Jean Twenge3:11

      Oh, there were so, there were so many. So, it was, um, when should I give my kid a smartphone? Like, what's the right age? Um, or gaming or social media or the phone has just taken over my kid's life. How do I set boundaries so that doesn't happen? And then when I do that, how do I avoid them having a total meltdown?

   4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy3:34

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JTDr. Jean Twenge3:34

      That's just a sampling of some of the questions.

3. 3:36 – 6:19

   The real question isn’t avoiding meltdowns—it’s leading through them

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy3:36

      Yeah, that question is, is one I get a lot, too. In fact, it's kind of a general question about parenting. How do I do X without my kid having a meltdown? And I always say to parents, you know, the reason it's hard to answer that question is actually 'cause it's just the wrong question. The question needs to be, how can I do X and tolerate the fact that my kid is [laughs] going to have a meltdown, um, because they will, because nobody likes to be told no. No one loves it at any age. Um, and even if your parent has your best interest in mind long term, we all like gratification in the moment, and so a meltdown or push, pushback or talk back is often just your kid's way of saying, "I don't, I'm not getting the answer that I want to get." Um, and probably so much of quality parenting has to be those moments when you're making a decision for your kid's long-term interest, knowing they're not gonna like it short term. And I think phones and tech, as you know, it's such a primary example, um, of where, where we need to do that.

   2. JTDr. Jean Twenge4:35

      Yeah, absolutely, and I, I love that philosophy of thinking long term rather than short term, of, yeah, they might be upset in the moment, but you know what's best for them in the long run. Um, and I mention this in the book. There, when my kids were really young, someone said to me, "Remember, you're not raising children. You're raising adults," and I love that.

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy4:53

      It's so important. I'm just closing my eyes as I think about... And again, it's, it's hard to hold onto that every moment, and, and both of us, I'm sure as moms, too, there are certain decisions we make where like, "I'm optimizing the now. I just can't deal with this." [laughs] Like, "I just have to make this moment pass." We all need to give ourselves a pass for those moments, but when we think about patterns, how do I set boundaries? How do I, you know, tolerate my kid being upset with me? How do I tolerate my kid being upset with other people? That is the stuff that makes for super resilient adults, right, adults who are able to deal with not getting their way or not having the thing they want right away or who can deal with disappointment. That's what makes for resilience later on, and that doesn't, that doesn't just get gifted to someone at age 18, right?

   4. JTDr. Jean Twenge5:41

      Exactly, exactly. Yeah, that, that's why that parenting philosophy is so important, of having those boundaries in place, and then not only are you doing what's best for your kids, but they're learning how to live within that structure and those rules.

   5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy5:58

      Yeah. So- This book lays out 10 different rules, right? Let's just jump into a couple of them. So, um, I don't know, maybe this is an unfair question. I don't know if it's like asking you what your favorite, you know, your favorite child, but if you had to pick your favorite rule, I'm gonna give you free rein for the first one, what would that be?

4. 6:19 – 7:51

   Top rule: No devices in bedrooms overnight (sleep as the foundation)

   1. JTDr. Jean Twenge6:19

      Oh, that one's, that's, that's easy. Number two, uh, which is no devices in the bedroom overnight.

   2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy6:24

      Wait, that's my favorite. I knew we were gonna be friends.

   3. JTDr. Jean Twenge6:26

      Yeah.

   4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy6:26

      That's literally my favorite.

   5. JTDr. Jean Twenge6:28

      Yeah.

   6. BKDr. Becky Kennedy6:28

      And it's the thing I say to all parents. Like, starting today, you can make that rule, even if your kids-

   7. JTDr. Jean Twenge6:34

      Mm-hmm

   8. BKDr. Becky Kennedy6:35

      ... had it in their room forever. Like, it just should be foundational. But you're the expert on this, so why that? Why does that one number- why does number two rise to number one?

   9. JTDr. Jean Twenge6:43

      Yeah. I mean, for, for a bunch of reasons. I mean, so first is just how fundamental and important sleep is for both physical and mental health. And then just how much research there is about phones in the bedroom. Even if they're off, they interfere with sleep. The other thing I love about this rule is it's for everyone. It's not just for kids and teens, it's for adults of all ages. Everybody is gonna sleep better if, if the device is out of the bedroom. And it's also, it's just a, it's kind of like a no argument zone of, you know, especially with teenagers. Teenagers are gonna push back. That's kind of their job. But really, you do not need that overnight. When you are sleeping, you are supposed to be sleeping. And we're, we're not talking about like the laptop when I'm doing my homework in the evening or the phone when I'm texting my friends about the math homework. No, we're talking about after lights out when you're sleeping. No argument.

   10. BKDr. Becky Kennedy7:40

       And what do we know from research? Like, why does that affect kids' sleep and probably therefore their ment- their- therefore their mental health so much? Just for anyone who's not aware of it.

5. 7:51 – 11:03

   What the research shows: midnight-to-5AM phone use and mental health risk

   1. JTDr. Jean Twenge7:51

      Yeah. So this is something that really stunned me is, um, Common Sense Media did a study where they actually tracked kids' phone use, and the majority were using their phones between midnight and 5:00 AM on school nights.

   2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy8:10

      [gasps]

   3. JTDr. Jean Twenge8:10

      So that shows you just how pervasive it is.

   4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy8:13

      Yeah.

   5. JTDr. Jean Twenge8:13

      And that shows you immediately how big of a problem this is, that I mean, it's bad enough for the phone to be there, and then the brain is like, "Ooh, that phone's there. I wonder what's going on," and that compromising sleep. But actually waking up in the middle of the night or staying up that late on a school night to be on the device, just spectacularly bad for sleep, which is a, not getting enough sleep is a huge risk factor for mental health issues, as well as being problematic for physical health as well.

   6. BKDr. Becky Kennedy8:45

      And, and I think i- if we zoom out to adults, like we know this. You could be going through a really hard stage in your life and feeling down or feeling very anxious, but we all know if you have multiple nights in a row where you're not sleeping, it's almost impossible to disentangle what is exhaustion and depletion from what is my low mood. A- and so whenever I talk to parents and kind of ask them about phones in the bedroom, you know, when a kid is sleeping, I always say, "This, there's no shame here. We, we've all done, you know, whatever we've done up to this point. No one has their kind of guidelines with their kids around phones in a place that they feel amazing about." I don't, I've never met one parent who's like, "I feel great about the way I handle it." No one. So everyone's struggling. And so when parents report to me their kid spiked anxiety or my kid's not doing their homework or their academic performance is slipping or they think they're depressed, the truth is we have to factor out the sleep first. We have to figure out the piece to kind of see what's left over. And with the phone in the room, we're just not gonna be able to separate those. You know, I, I often think for me, if I knew, I don't know, like my husband put an amazing ice cream sundae next to my bed at 2:00 AM, like every night.

   7. JTDr. Jean Twenge10:02

      [laughs]

   8. BKDr. Becky Kennedy10:03

      Um, like if I knew he was doing that, like I feel like my body would have a way to override its sleep mechanism, and it would wake up for something that's very enticing to me. Now, I think we know social media and the constant stream of information is actually more addicting than an ice cream sundae, believe it or not, right? But if that's next to your kid, the sleeping brain, right, it, it's not as if there's no kind of in shallow sleep awareness of what's right next to you, right? It's why we all wake up when we have a big test the next day or when we have a plane to catch. Like, your mind kind of knows what's there. And in those shallow moments of sleep, you're just that much more likely to pop up and then probably what that study shows. I'm checking my phone. All of a sudden, I can't get back to sleep or I have interrupted sleep. And so I'm in complete agreement with you. And I often tell parents I have a hard time with rigidity, like except for things that are really harmful, but this to me is like a rigid rule that I think is really important 'cause it's truly

6. 11:03 – 14:03

   “It’s too late” isn’t true: changing tech rules without losing authority

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy11:03

      in the name of protecting every child. So what do you say to parents who are saying, "Okay, well, my kid is X years old. My kid's 17. They've slept with their phone in the room for however many years." And something I hear a lot from parents, I'm curious how you think about it, is like, "It's too late. Like, I can't go back-"

   2. JTDr. Jean Twenge11:19

      Mm-hmm

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy11:19

      ... "on this decision. The cat's out of the bag."

   4. JTDr. Jean Twenge11:21

      Can't put the genie back in the bottle.

   5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy11:21

      Yeah, exactly.

   6. JTDr. Jean Twenge11:22

      Right. Yeah.

   7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy11:22

      You can't put the genie out of the bo-

   8. JTDr. Jean Twenge11:24

      Yeah

   9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy11:24

      ... that's the better phrase.

   10. JTDr. Jean Twenge11:25

       Yeah, yeah.

   11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy11:25

       So yeah. How, how do you think-

   12. JTDr. Jean Twenge11:26

       Yeah

   13. BKDr. Becky Kennedy11:26

       ... about that?

   14. JTDr. Jean Twenge11:27

       You're the parent. You can always change. And, you know, if, if you got a 17-year-old who's heading to college in two weeks, it might be a little bit of a different conversation. But anything short of that, absolutely. And, and start now so then at college they'll maybe have that better habit. But I mean, I, I, I, I just don't, I don't buy that argument. I think there's always something that you can do. If you feel like, "Okay, I didn't do that right. I should've been doing this all along," then change. Change it.

   15. BKDr. Becky Kennedy12:01

       A- and I just wanna further empower parents listening because a- and I think, I think about it with a metaphor, and then also with, um, just something very practical. So metaphorically, right, if you think about, I don't know, I'm flying from New York to Los Angeles, and the pilot comes on and says, "I'm gonna get you to Los Angeles. We're due in at 5:00 PM." You're like, "All right. We're going as planned." If the pilot then says, "Oh, look, we're gonna be okay, but we need to make an emergency landing in Ohio," I just don't know many passengers who are like, "But you promised Los Angeles."

   16. JTDr. Jean Twenge12:34

       [laughs]

   17. BKDr. Becky Kennedy12:34

       "My ticket says Los Angeles. You're a liar." Like, any reasonable passenger would be like, "Well, yes, we both thought it was gonna be Los Angeles, but information has changed," right? And then if you, if, if we, if we laugh at that, I think the very practical thing to remember as a parent is we say to ourselves, "Well, I can't be inconsistent," or, "I lose my authority when I make these changes." You're actually not being inconsistent. To me, the job of a parent is to make the best decision with the information you have available in that time. The truth is, information changes. So you might have made the decision to allow your kid to have a phone in the room, and that was the best you did with the information you had at that time. Now, you have new information, and so even though the decision might change on the surface, you're actually being remarkably consistent internally in that you're actually continuing to do your job even as the decision changes. And I think that that's important for parents to know. Your consistency isn't judged just based on an external decision. Consistency is actually about attunement to your values, and you're being consistent by protecting your kid, actually changing your decision on the surface, but really helping them with the job you're doing underneath.

   18. JTDr. Jean Twenge13:46

       Absolutely. And I, I also just might, personally, I also think it's totally fine to say, "I made a mistake, and I'm gonna try to correct it."

   19. BKDr. Becky Kennedy13:57

       Oh, love that. Such, I mean, by the way, that's something we should say more often in non-tech areas, too. "I made a mistake."

   20. JTDr. Jean Twenge14:03

       Absolutely.

7. 14:03 – 15:37

   How to announce a tough boundary: name the reaction, stay sturdy

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy14:03

      "This parenting thing is tricky. I'm doing the best I can. I learned more, and I'm gonna go in a different direction." The other thing I'm curious what you think is whenever I tell my kids something that I know they're not gonna like to hear, I often just name that. Like, I'll say, "Look, I'm gonna tell you something. Might have a couple hard days in front of us. I don't expect you to cheerlead the decision I'm about to give you, and then I'm gonna change my policy with cell phones in the room. Here's why, 'cause I think I owe you that. I've learned it's really disruptive for sleep, and even if you tell me you're sleeping well, I, I know it's just an important thing to protect your sleep space. And so even though this decision might feel like punishment, I promise you it's actually coming from a place of protection. It's okay if you don't see it that way. Probably gonna be a couple tricky nights ahead, and then I just know we're gonna get to the other side." And just naming that in advance, you're kind of also saying to your kid, "I know you're gonna feel this way. I'm not gonna change my decision because you feel that way." And it's really a, a message of sturdiness. To tell your kid you're doing something to protect them, and their short-term protest won't change your mind, I, I actually think that's how we feel comforted by any leader, right? It's kind of like if you protest the emergency landing. "Oh, I have to get to LA." You really don't want the pilot to say, "Okay, fine, I won't." You know, you actually want them to stick to their guns.

   2. JTDr. Jean Twenge15:22

      Yeah. Yeah, we're just, we're gonna keep flying even though one of our engines is totally out. You know, it'll... Yeah.

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy15:27

      Right.

   4. JTDr. Jean Twenge15:27

      Exactly. No. It, yeah, I love, and I love that. I mean, loving but firm, we all know that's the best parenting style from decades of research.

8. 15:37 – 18:55

   Parental controls: why they’re hard, why you still try, and what works better

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy15:37

      So talk to me next about parental controls 'cause I have to tell you, this is something I think is so important, and I have found my smartest, most capable friends find it extraordinarily tricky to actually put parental controls in place. And I think everyone needs a little education and pep talk about how some of this is possible.

   2. JTDr. Jean Twenge16:02

      Yeah. So look, I had a hard time with it, too. Um, I think everybody, everybody I know does. And some of that is, for whatever reason, the device-based controls, so let's say, you know, on a Mac laptop or an iPhone, um, or the Google setup on a, on an Android phone or, or a Chromebook. They're often really hard to figure out, even if you're educated, even if you, you know, research this stuff, even if you look it up online and do, you know, the step-by-step directions. There's also, like, kids find workarounds, which is extremely frustrating to a lot of parents. I hear that when I give parent talks all the time. Um, so I've come to the reluctant conclusion that you have to do something else. Um, so for a laptop, that it's probably gonna have to be third-party parental control software that you buy, and I hated coming to that conclusion 'cause I know it's, not all parents are gonna be able to afford that. I mean, the good news is it's, for the basic package, about 60 bucks a year. It's less than a streaming service, so that helps. Um, and then for phones, that, you know, don't give them a smartphone until they're driving is now the rule in, in our house, and that's rule number five in the book. Before that, give them a basic phone designed for kids that doesn't have those workarounds, so it basically has, like, built-in parental controls.

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy17:27

      And so I think one of the things you're saying, but I just wanna make sure, is parental controls on a kid's smartphone, it, it's really hard to do it well. Like, kids will find a workaround. You know-

   4. JTDr. Jean Twenge17:38

      Yeah

   5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy17:38

      ... I was talking to a friend about how-

   6. JTDr. Jean Twenge17:40

      You should still try.

   7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy17:41

      You still try.

   8. JTDr. Jean Twenge17:41

      You should still try, but yeah.

   9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy17:41

      Right. Where you can have certain limitations on your kid's browser, but if they're accessing a browser within Snapchat, none of those will apply.

   10. JTDr. Jean Twenge17:51

       Yes. Mm-hmm.

   11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy17:51

       Like, that's just one example, right?

   12. JTDr. Jean Twenge17:53

       Yeah.

   13. BKDr. Becky Kennedy17:53

       And so, and kids can get really smart, right? Kind of like they say, when there's a will, there's a way, and they, when they wanna find a way around it, they often will. And so I, I like this two things are true. Parental controls are important, and we should try, and- It's almost impossible to do them completely effectively, which is one of the reasons delaying a smartphone is almost the best parental control that there is.

   14. JTDr. Jean Twenge18:19

       It is. Absolutely. Exactly. Exactly. And you know, a while ago, the idea was, well, you know, if they don't have a smartphone, then the only other option is a flip phone. And you know, you can absolutely give your kid that if all you need is for you to be able to contact them and maybe for them to send a few texts here and there, but those are- they're really hard to text on. Uh, they stand out, so then other kids will know that you don't have a regular phone. But I love the phones designed for kids because they can easily have a c- they have a keyboard. They're standard phones with just a different platform, so they can text their friends and it doesn't stand out.

9. 18:55 – 21:12

   Rule: No smartphone until driving—why 16 matters for maturity and real life

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy18:55

      And tell me a little bit about the research you've done, kind of this no smartphone until you're driving. Just, you know, flesh that out for us a little bit.

   2. JTDr. Jean Twenge19:03

      Yeah. So my, my oldest is 18 now. So when, uh, when she was in high school, she actually had a flip phone, and she was cool with that. Um, she is a unique individual, and I always say that as a, as a compliment. Uh, so she was, she was cool with that for quite a long time. Then she started driving. She got her driver's license a little bit after she turned 16. And so she'd print out directions, you know, like it was, uh, you know, MapQuest from whatever it was. I remember doing this, like 2002. Uh, but you know, then you take a wrong turn, and then those directions don't help that much anymore. So we realized, you know, when she was about 16 and a half, about four months after getting her driver's license, probably a good idea to do the smartphone. And that's when it occurred to me she didn't really need the smartphone before she started driving. There really wasn't a compelling reason to get her an internet-enabled smartphone until then. And then just the more I thought about it, the more it, it really did make sense, that then they have the maturity. Also, if they have that driver's license or they're getting around on public transportation and are at least 16, then they don't have that choice of, "Oh, you know, Mom and Dad are busy. They can't drive me. I really wanna get together with my friends. Well, I guess it'll have to be Snapchat." They can get in the car and go see their friends.

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy20:23

      Mm. They're more mobile. They can kind of have more-

   4. JTDr. Jean Twenge20:26

      Yeah

   5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy20:26

      ... interactive social life once they're driving.

   6. JTDr. Jean Twenge20:29

      Exactly.

   7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy20:29

      And so the kind of, the delta between interactive real social life and online interactive social life w- will inherently be shorter when they have the agency and the mobility, you're saying?

   8. JTDr. Jean Twenge20:41

      Yeah, exactly. And just, you know, you think about, I mean, when do kids usually get phones these days? 10 or 11.

   9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy20:48

      Is that right? I'm just cur-

   10. JTDr. Jean Twenge20:49

       Yeah

   11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy20:50

       ... is that, is it-

   12. JTDr. Jean Twenge20:50

       Yeah

   13. BKDr. Becky Kennedy20:50

       ... most kids are getting smartphones at age 10 or 11?

   14. JTDr. Jean Twenge20:54

       Yeah. And that, that, yeah, and that's, that's almost always going to be just a, you know, regular internet-enabled Android or iPhone. Um, so that's, that's pretty young, and you think about the difference in maturity between an 11-year-old and a 16-year-old, and it's huge.

10. 21:12 – 22:03

    Smartphone access often equals social media access (and why that’s the real issue)

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy21:12

       Now, let me ask you one more question about that. A smartphone versus a smartphone with social media or all the apps, are you seeing it... Yes, they're different things, but practically, when most 10 or 11-year-olds are getting a phone, they are also just kind of getting access to, you know, social media along, along with it.

    2. JTDr. Jean Twenge21:32

       And that, that's part of the problem, right? So if you wanna keep your kids off social media as long as possible, it's really hard to do that if they have a smartphone, particularly a smartphone without any parental controls. But even if you put the parental controls on, like no downloading apps, which I do recommend, still, it's a lot easier for them to find a workaround on that than if you give them a kid's phone where that's just, it just can't happen. You know? It doesn't allow any social media apps at all. And, and I have to mention this, those phones designed for kids also

11. 22:03 – 25:39

    New frontier: AI companions, ‘AI boyfriends/girlfriends,’ and the illusion of intimacy

    1. JTDr. Jean Twenge22:03

       don't allow AI boyfriends and girlfriends, because that's the new thing.

    2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy22:07

       Say more about that, because I think that's really on parents' minds right now.

    3. JTDr. Jean Twenge22:11

       I know. So there are a bunch of apps out there, and, you know, there's, there's different AI platforms. So there's the kinda standard ChatGPT, which, you know, kids are using for homework and so on, but there are apps that are specifically designed to be an AI companion, and several of them are AI girlfriends or AI boyfriends, or they'll be, like, Sexy Chat, and these are all AI bots. And if you give your 11-year-old a smartphone without any controls on it, there's nothing stopping them from downloading these apps and then, you know, end, ending up having their first, quote, "romantic relationship" with a chatbot.

    4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy22:53

       And just to look at it, probably won't go off on this for too long, but one of the things, 'cause parents will say to me, like, "Is that so bad? Is this, is it nice that they have something that feels so, you know, validating or connecting?" And I understand the question. I think, you know, when we fast-forward for our kids, and again, we have this longer term vision for them, intimate relationships, sexual, non-sexual, just any type of intimate relationship is so awkward for so long, even if it's friendship. It, it's hard to be vulnerable. It's hard to tell the true story. It's hard to say, "I felt left out." It's hard to say, you know, "I didn't like it when..." It's hard to have a conversation with someone you have a crush on. Like, these are really awkward things because they're new. They require you to really put yourself out there. And one of, you know, just one of the things on the list that concerns me with these early, quote, "AI relationships" is they almost give the illusion or the feeling of intimacy without any hurdle of awkwardness or discomfort. And I think that's a really dangerous thing to pair, because when the younger generation feels like they can get all the benefits of intimacy without the risks and the awkwardness of vulnerability, it, it will have a profound impact on their ability to have actual human relationships, and the, it'll even lead to a sense of entitlement and kind of- Almost aggressive behavior when inherently normal, real, intimate relationships don't come with that same type of comfort and ease. And so I think that's a perspective I often ask parents to think about, right? Where it's not just about the short-term moment of, "Oh, I felt validated." Um, it's really important we make sure kids see intimate relationships for what they are and not have kind of a false security that they can be achieved so easily and kind of cheaply.

    5. JTDr. Jean Twenge24:46

       Yeah, absolutely, 'cause those chatbots, they're programmed to be affirming. That's what they do. And then you have that, quote, relationship, then what happens if you have a friendship or much less a romantic relationship with a actual flesh and blood human being who has feelings of their own and is not always going to agree with you?

    6. BKDr. Becky Kennedy25:09

       Or think you're brilliant. Like, I, I mean, really. Like, every time I chat anything with a, with an AI chat, it's like, "Oh, Becky, that's a great idea. Let me expand on it. Oh, brilliant. Oh, so smart." Like, literally, I, I almost feel myself getting a little frustrated at my husband. Like, "Do you not think I just said something brilliant?" Like, where is- where are my accolades, you know? Um, and so yeah, we notice that even in adulthood, right? And so I think that's just a really good point. Okay, another rule in your book, and I've seen this be so important in

12. 25:39 – 28:21

    Phone-free zones that rebuild connection: dinner, game night, and ‘no phubbing’

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy25:39

       my house, phone-free zones. Tell me about that.

    2. JTDr. Jean Twenge25:44

       Yeah. So just times and places when preferably everybody in the family just has those devices put away. So family dinner is a great example of that, or family game night, where we're gonna interact with each other face-to-face, and we're not gonna do this thing that social psychologists have come up with a clever name for, which is phubbing, a combination of phone and snubbing. Everybody has experienced it and hates it, and everybody does it. We don't want that. We wanna have that conversation face-to-face, have that time carved out when we can actually be there and be present with each other.

    3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy26:23

       I- it's interesting. This transition to the school year, um, I've thought a lot about family dinner, and part of it is that my youngest just doesn't need to go to bed as early as he used to because he's just getting older, right? When you have, like, really young kids, or you have a kid who needs to go to bed by 7:00 and another kid who doesn't get home from sports until 6:30, like, family dinner, I don't th- don't be so hard on yourself. It's- there's a period of time where it's really impossible, and that's okay. But I've thought about, hey, maybe my youngest can stay up a little later, and maybe my oldest can start homework a little later. And the way I thought about it in my head is just what if the thing I optimize for on weeknights is actually family dinner together? And, and I can tell you, it's completely changed this school year. I think it's been one of the best things our family has had happen. And the rules of family dinner aren't that rigid. We eat dinner together. There's one meal that we all have. Um, there's no phones anywhere. And we don't have such a routine. Like, sometimes we do tru- truth, sin, and lie about our day, or rose, thorn, or, you know, sometimes we just listen to each other. Um, but the essence of it is it is a container where we are together exactly, and there's no phones. Um, and it feels old school. We're just connecting and being present with each other. And it's, it just made me think about so many things I tell parents because I swear it's been more impactful on my relationship with my kids, their behavior, their cooperation. They're arguing with each other less. Them being kinder to each other. Maybe more than any of the more, like, complicated strategies that we think about doing. And it, it's almost remarkable how powerful it is in family life because it is actually a kind of a simple, old-school thing.

    4. JTDr. Jean Twenge28:09

       Yeah. That's, that's the charm of it. That's the beauty of it. And it's, I mean, it's just great for that feeling of, of togetherness and that you have, even if that's the only time that you all come together as a family on weeknights, then you have that.

13. 28:21 – 31:34

    Handling adult device slip-ups and the ‘look it up’ reflex

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy28:21

       What, what do you say to parents, 'cause I hear this, who are like, "You know, honestly, it's, it's my husband, it's my wife-

    2. JTDr. Jean Twenge28:28

       [laughs]

    3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy28:28

       ... who is the one," you know? Like, "Getting my kid to put down their phone for family dinner, like, that's, that's manageable, but it's really hard when my partner, you know, is, 'Oh, I have this thing come up at work,'" or, you know. I think one of the things that's interesting is someone asks a question, and we've been so programmed to say, like, "Let me look that up. Oh, wait, I can look that up," and then, right? So how, how do you manage that?

    4. JTDr. Jean Twenge28:48

       I mean, you know, just that honest conversation. And I think one thing is if you've, if let's say, you know, you have a spouse who is on call or is the contact for an elderly parent, and they really do have a compelling reason, then they should narrate what they're doing. Uh, "I'm so sorry. I do have to check this really quick." And then it's not just like, "Oh, you guys are boring. I'm gonna take out my phone." I actually think that's a great idea overall, you know, if you do find yourself really not being able to avoid taking out the phone or, yeah, if you're like, "Let me, let me look it up," or, like, we're arguing about what year did this movie come out, "I gotta hear it. I'll look that up really quick," but then put it away. But say that's what you're doing so then it's not like, "Oh, I'm gonna text my buddy."

    5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy29:34

       I love that. And, and the other thing is, just for anyone listening, it's really interesting to try to have a full conversation with multiple people without looking something up. Like, we all used to do that.

    6. JTDr. Jean Twenge29:44

       Yeah. [laughs]

    7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy29:44

       It was like, "What year did that come out?"

    8. JTDr. Jean Twenge29:46

       That's right. That's true.

    9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy29:46

       And everyone's like-

    10. JTDr. Jean Twenge29:47

        Yep

    11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy29:47

        ... "Nobody knows. Nobody knows."

    12. JTDr. Jean Twenge29:49

        Right.

    13. BKDr. Becky Kennedy29:49

        "It's impossible to know." And you kind of wondered about it together, which is interesting. Wondering about something together is such a powerful way of connecting that sometimes short-circuiting to the right answer actually diminishes connection. "Oh, I think it was 1979. I'm pretty sure it was '81 'cause I remember this." "Oh, you remember it was, like, in '81? Wow, Dad, you're old." "Yeah, I am." Like, whatever the conversation ends up being, it actually only happens because you haven't- ... come up with the right answer. And, a- and I think about that often, how easily we can look something up and then the conversation's over. So it is kind of just a challenge to take on, can I have a family dinner or breakfast, whatever it is, where we don't have a phone? And you can even preview. There'll be probably a moment where everyone thinks, "Oh, let's just look this up online." We're just not gonna do it. It's not like we don't believe in finding out answers. We do. But once in a while, it's okay not to and just see what transpires. Um, because I do find the habit of, like, looking something up, in my family it's probably a sports score, we're very into sports, all of a sudden it's so hard to put your phone down right after. Then all of a sudden you see a notification, right? Um, and that is the thing of the phone. Like, one tiny ding leads you into an hour of a rabbit hole, and then you come out of your phone and you're like, "I can't even believe it's this time. I totally lost it." None of us are immune to that. So actually just trying to stop [laughs] the beginning of that downward spiral once in a while, I think is, you know, probably the most realistic.

    14. JTDr. Jean Twenge31:21

        Yeah. Absolutely.

    15. BKDr. Becky Kennedy31:23

        Any other rule in your book, I want people to read the book, so we're gonna leave them with a little of a cliffhanger, but anything that you're like, "Oh, geez, Becky, I gotta get this one in. This one, you know, also feels super important to talk about."

14. 31:34 – 33:37

    Rule 8: Give kids real-world freedom—the antidote to anxiety and overreliance on screens

    1. JTDr. Jean Twenge31:34

       Rule eight of give your kids real-world freedom.

    2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy31:37

       Mm.

    3. JTDr. Jean Twenge31:38

       It's not-

    4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy31:38

       Love this one.

    5. JTDr. Jean Twenge31:39

       Yep. So it's not just getting off the phone, it's what are they gonna do instead, and what does actually build resilience? Kids doing things on their own.

    6. BKDr. Becky Kennedy31:49

       Yes.

    7. JTDr. Jean Twenge31:49

       With, with their parents' approval, but without their parents' help, whether that's walking or biking to school, or going into a grocery store and buying something, or even at home, doing your own laundry, learning how to cook a meal and doing that for your family every once in a while.

    8. BKDr. Becky Kennedy32:06

       I, I love this and I love that this is a kind of side-by-side point to guidelines around containing phone use, because none of this is about trying to ruin our kids' childhood. Like, just to be clear. [laughs] We're not trying to just reduce things that give them pleasure, but we know, right, playing around on your phone all the time, and, and the way I think about it, and it's beyond just phones, it's even young kids and screen time, is, again, I'm not rigid about anything, but the more our kids learn that they can kind of get this easy, quick dopamine hit from something that requires no effort or struggle, that's just a dangerous combination. Like, I want my kids to know how to struggle, to know how to figure things out over time, to feel awkward, whether it's talking to someone they have a crush on, or it's awkward the first time you check out at a grocery store. Like, no kid is gonna do that for the first time and be like, "That's easy." The whole point is that it's awkward, it's hard, you take a step, and there's no better feeling in the world than watching yourself do something you thought you couldn't do. And so I think the whole point of rule number eight is we actually wanna set our kids up for more of that, right? That, like, that's actually part of our job too. And being on your phone a lot or high-tech, it can actually get in the way of that. So if we're reducing one, we really wanna increase the other.

    9. JTDr. Jean Twenge33:31

       Yep. Yep. Best, best cure for anxiety is experience. I think that really kinda sums it up.

15. 33:37 – 40:01

    Parents’ fear vs. real risk: recalibrating safety and scaffolding independence

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy33:37

       What do you, what is the pushback here, or maybe where do you just find parents are very anxious about this? Maybe where their own anxiety or maybe their own bad experiences kind of get in the way. What, what have you noticed?

    2. JTDr. Jean Twenge33:50

       Yeah. So I, I hear that a lot. Um, so I gave a talk over the weekend. Someone raised their hand and said, "You know, I love that thing about the real-world freedom, and I know that that's good, but what if I ask my six-year-old to go into the next aisle at the grocery store to grab something and come back to me?" With context, we're talking about the grocery store and probably, like, less than a minute. "What if they get kidnapped?"

    3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy34:16

       Yeah.

    4. JTDr. Jean Twenge34:16

       And I think that, given how vanishingly rare that is, especially, you know, when they're an aisle away at the grocery store, that's interesting. I think that says a lot about the anxiety that's out there among parents and in the whole society right now, when for most parents, this time now, when your kids are young, is safer than when you were the same age.

    5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy34:38

       Yeah. I think we're talking about something really interesting psychologically in terms of how we process risk, because we know the risk to kids spending a lot of time on their phones. It's, it's massive. It's a known risk, but the risk isn't kind of, um, captured in the exact moment. The appearance of the moment is, like, my kid's just on their phone, right? Versus, it reminds me of a time when, you know, someone would say, "I don't know, I know someone has this illness at a dinner party. Should I go?" And they're like, "Oh, knowing that, I don't wanna go." But this is someone who gets on the subway all the time, and probably the chances that they're exposed to illness is, like, high, right? So our body kind of processes risk in an interesting way where we think letting my kid go to the aisle next door, we're thinking about something so bold as kidnapping in that moment. But the actual risk in that moment is probably less than the risk that is known from our kids, for example, spending too much time on their phone or sleeping with their phone in the room. And, and I'm curious how you respond to this. One of the things I often talk about with parents in terms of risk is how complete minimization of risk isn't a life strategy. Like, there's some amount of risk we have to take on to just live a worth, to live a life that's worth living, right? And where we are in that spectrum, everyone has a different amount, right? But minimizing risk at all times for your kids ironically will lead to a kid who is terrified of the world, because the message they've been given over and over is, "Nothing is safe for you to do." And so fast-forward 10, 20 years, this is a kid who's going to be an adult- Who finds it very, very hard to do something independently because their body gives them a message of risk, danger, kind of all the time

    6. JTDr. Jean Twenge36:36

       Exactly. And they're, they're scared to do things. They don't know how to do things. Um, you know, I teach on a college campus, and I give a lot of talks on college campuses, and everywhere I go, what I hear from staff and faculty is, "I have more and more students who can't make even simple decisions without texting their parents," and that they come in prepared academically, but not in terms of managing their life, even little things like they have no idea how to do laundry

    7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy37:03

       And so this is like, let's make this concrete for parents because everyone's starting point is going to be different, and sometimes if you know you're a parent who can feel pretty anxious about this, you can actually use that as a little bit of a compass. Like, okay, what gives me 10 out of 10 panic? The thought of my kid, I don't know, you know, let's say someone doesn't even live in New York City. I get, you're like, "The thought of my kid going on the subway by themselves, that's, you know, too high." Okay, great. So we're not gonna start there. And then maybe a different level you check in on is my kid going to the grocery store in our town while I'm parked in the car. Okay, maybe that still feels too hard. Maybe I'm in the store with my kid, but I stay in the aisle, and they go to check out by themselves. To think about this less as all or nothing and more as what is a little bit of discomfort I'm comfortable with as a parent, and I can kind of scaffold my kid from there, and then I think it becomes a lot more manageable. And I just wanna say as a parent who I think does give my kids a good amount of independence, I, I just wanna say it's completely true. There's nothing I've seen them ever do kind of academically or in sports even that has given them the confidence that walking to the local store has and bringing back breakfast for the family. Like, truly, because the experience of feeling like you're part of this world, the real world, and you're an agent in that world, and you can do things, and you can help, and you can have purpose and impact, uh, kids actually do crave that, and they almost get a high when they feel that. And by the way, the other thing I say to parents, do you know how much easier it is when your kid makes breakfast for themselves? Like, literally, we all, "I can't even sit down and have coffee." Like, I've learned, hold on a second, a little bit of work helping my... My eight-year-old makes a breakfast burrito for himself. He does. Uh, the full thing, start to finish. And you know what I'm doing when he's doing that? I don't know. I'm messing around. I'm sitting down. I'm drinking my coffee, right? And it's not always perfect, but the way your kid's independence gives you energy and literal time back, and your resentment and depletion goes down, I mean, that's one of the reasons no one talks about that is still a good reason to motivate a parent to help a kid be a little bit more on that track

    8. JTDr. Jean Twenge39:20

       Absolutely. I mean, it is really is a win-win situation. Kids do those things on their own. They gain confidence. It tamps down their anxiety. It tamps down your anxiety. And then, yeah, they've done their laundry. They've, uh, cooked dinner for the family. Then you don't have to do it. I love it

    9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy39:38

       All right. Well, thank you for this conversation. I really got so much out of your book, and it just made me think about things in a different way, and it also just really did generate important conversations with my kids. Um, and I wanna thank you for, like, all your years of work and research in this space. It's so important, and we're so grateful. So thank you

    10. JTDr. Jean Twenge39:58

        Thanks. Thanks for having me on

16. 40:01 – 41:23

    Closing takeaway: Start now—no phones in bedrooms, and you can always change course

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy40:01

       There's so many important things we talked about today, but if I had to choose one to rise to the top, it's actually Jean's second rule in the book, no phones in the bedroom at night. Now, I know a lot of us hear that, and we can spiral. Oh, does that mean I already messed up my kid? No. Something I tell myself all the time is the right time to change is always right now. We always say to ourselves, "It's too late. I messed it up." I think a different perspective is helpful. Today is always earlier than tomorrow. Remember, you are the pilot of your family's plane. You're a sturdy leader, and you can always change a decision so it's more in line with your own values. Let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground and a hand on your heart. Let's remind ourselves, even as I struggle on the outside, I remain good inside. I'll see you next time. [outro music]

Episode duration: 41:23