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Sex? After Kids? Tell Me More, Esther Perel

What happens when two become three, or four, or five? Who is responsible for the needs and wants of a couple when days are filled with playdates, pick-ups, and meal preps? Nights lack the erotic energy that couples need not only to survive but to thrive. This week, Dr. Becky consults with the renowned couples therapist, Esther Perel, to talk about what parents can do to rekindle their desires. Join Good Inside Membership: bit.ly/3Dyu8fv Follow Dr. Becky on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drbeckyatgoodinside Sign up for our weekly email, Good Insider: https://www.goodinside.com/newsletter Order Dr. Becky's book, Good Inside: A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be, at goodinside.com/book or wherever you order your books. For more Esther Perel, head to estherperel.com or listen to her podcast Where Should We Begin. Stories are the building blocks of relationships and Esther Perel designed a game to bring out the storyteller in you. Get yours at https://game.estherperel.com Today’s episode is brought to you by Lovevery: As parents, we are exhausted and overwhelmed, and thinking about playing with our kids can feel more stressful than fun. This is exactly what The Play Kits by Lovevery were made for. They tap into what your child is hungry to learn and provide play ideas and activities for parents - so you can have those great connected moments with your kids. Designed by child development experts for kids ages 0-4, each play kit comes with stage-based toys for your child AND a play guide for you with ideas about how to use the toys to play with your kids. Go to lovevery.com to learn more.

Dr. BeckyhostEsther Perelguest
Feb 7, 202331mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:56

    Esther Perel’s lens: modern love, culture, and sexuality

    1. BE

      Hi, Esther.

    2. EP

      Hello, Becky.

    3. BE

      I am so excited to have you on the podcast. And when I told the members of our community that you were coming on, people, I don't know a more sophisticated way of saying it, they freaked out. They just freaked out.

    4. EP

      [laughs]

    5. BE

      They're so excited. Um, and I join them in that feeling, so I'm, I'm just so happy that you're here.

    6. EP

      It's a treat, really.

    7. BE

      So for anybody listening who is not familiar with you or your work, tell us a little bit about who you are and the types of things you're interested in.

    8. EP

      So I'm a couples and family therapist. I was trained particularly in working with families and with couples, and I've had a predilection for working with people from multiple different cultural, racial, and religious backgrounds. I spent many, many years actually working with mixed families. Then I brought to that the subject of sexuality because it was also a cultural lens of how we look at sexuality in our relationships, and I am the author of, of two books, Mating in Captivity and The State of Affairs. I have two podcasts, Where Should We Begin? and How Is Work?, which both feature anonymous, raw, live couples therapy sessions, one in the romantic sphere, one in the workplace, where I invite you to come behind closed doors and see what really happens in the lives of couples behind closed doors. But this is what you do with parents. You do something very similar. You bring the parents out of their isolation, out of their shame, out of their, you know, this is just happening to me thing. Why can everybody else have normal kids and handle situations well? And, uh, and you create a community for the challenges of parenthood today, like I try to create a global community for the challenges of modern love.

  2. 1:56 – 3:05

    Why partnership health shapes parenting and the whole family system

    1. BE

      And I love the overlap that we're entering into here because so many of the challenges in parenting are the challenges of partnership while parenting, or maybe especially while parenting young kids.

    2. EP

      Mm-hmm.

    3. BE

      And when I think about the questions that come up the most from parents, when I might say to them something like, "Okay. I hear all the stuff going on with your kids. All important. We'll get to it. Let's kind of just put that to the side. Tell me about what else is going on in your life. Tell me the other things that are going on in your home," the state of the partnership i- is almost always, like, the first thing to come out. [laughs] You know, some version of, "Oh, there's so much conflict with my partner. I hate my husband. You know, we have different parenting styles. I do everything. I'm resentful. Um, you know, we're so disconnected. We're fighting all the time. Sex? Oh, sex. Oh, my goodness. N- none of that. That is so far from what's happening." And the relationship between how someone feels in their partnership and how their family system is functioning and the behaviors their child is, in a way, therefore displaying, are also interrelated.

  3. 3:05 – 4:08

    A historic shift: family stability now hinges on couple happiness

    1. EP

      They're absolutely interrelated, but I will give you... I will even push it a level above, is this: This is the first time in the history of humankind that the survival of the family depends on the happiness of the couple.

    2. BE

      Hmm. Wow.

    3. EP

      We used to get married, or that basically was the way to be in a committed relationship, and that was that. One time for life, and if you were stuck. Today, you can leave. And so the only reason, there's no excommunication, there is women who have enough to take care of themselves economically. The only reason the family will stay together is because the couple is relatively content. That means that if you're going to want to give everything to your children, you really wanna make sure that one of the things you give them is a relationship between two adults that is alive and thriving.

    4. BE

      Give everything to your children. L- l- let me open that door.

    5. EP

      [laughs]

    6. BE

      What, what, what do you see?

  4. 4:08 – 5:06

    Child-centrality vs. romantic expectations: competing demands on limited resources

    1. EP

      Well, there is an unprecedented child centrality that has almost reached an apex of folly at this point, and it is living side by side with a high, unprecedented rise of expectations of our romantic partnerships, and these two are clashing on resources.

    2. BE

      Mm-hmm.

    3. EP

      Time, money, attention, intimacy, connection. Who's gonna get it?

    4. BE

      So just tell me if this is right. I have higher expectations of partnership than we've ever had-

    5. EP

      Yep

    6. BE

      ... while I'm pouring more of my energy into my kids-

    7. EP

      That's right

    8. BE

      ... than I ever have.

    9. EP

      Yes, that's exactly it.

    10. BE

      And those are really hard to coexist.

    11. EP

      Put in very simple terms. Well, it's a pull.

    12. BE

      For sure.

    13. EP

      It's a pull. So, and at the same time, if you really wanna give more to your children, make sure to give more to the couple.

    14. BE

      Hmm.

    15. EP

      Because otherwise comes a time when there won't be a couple for the children.

  5. 5:06 – 6:22

    “I’m owed”: resentment, missing partners, and dividing accountability

    1. BE

      So I, I wanna jump into a specific, a- and I'm gonna a little bit make this up, but it's a myriad of so many people's stories.

    2. EP

      Yep.

    3. BE

      And I just hear their voices, right? Hearing what you're saying. "Put more into my, into my partnership? Uh, my partner [laughs] is someone I feel very angry with right now. My partner puts no energy into me or into the kids. My partner comes home and thinks they can just waltz in and play with the kids and doesn't think it's a big deal that I've been, you know, taking care of the family the whole day. How can I put more into my partnership when I feel like I'm owed more by my partner?"

    4. EP

      Right. But that is one litany you just gave me now, which is, you know, I'm a couples therapist. Uh, it's often a drop-off center where somebody drops off another person to come and say to me, "Here, here's the problem. Let me explain to you. I'm an expert on this problem, and then you can go and fix it." And much of what you start to do when you work with a couple is basically you try to divide accountability. You know, what is it that you do, that you bring? How is this... What are you doing together? That keeps this problem in place.

    5. BE

      Yep.

    6. EP

      That's an ecological view. How is the couple organized in such a way that you keep on being resentful and your partner keeps of being, being, mis- missing in action?

    7. BE

      Mm-hmm.

  6. 6:22 – 9:19

    Two grounding questions: does it matter—and how do you show it?

    1. EP

      So the first thing is, um, you, you know, does your relationship matter to you?

    2. BE

      Mm.

    3. EP

      That is the first question. You... Now, you can say, "I don't have anything left to give to this relationship," and then it divides in a few different strands. So we need to break your question in small pieces.

    4. BE

      I, I like your first question, right? A- and I wanna, like, allow the listeners to, like, sit with that as they're, I don't know, probably also driving or, I don't know, in a pick-up line or doing something else. Like, uh, that, that question really hit me. Just, like, does your relationship matter to you? It's interesting how quickly it seems like someone would say, "But this, but this," but it... just to sit with the question.

    5. EP

      Correct.

    6. BE

      Like, does it matter?

    7. EP

      Correct.

    8. BE

      And, like, if the answer is a yes, allow that... Like, allow that to be enough for, like-

    9. EP

      Then, no, there's the second follow-up.

    10. BE

      Okay.

    11. EP

      Then the follow-up is, and what is it that you do to express its importance?

    12. BE

      Mm.

    13. EP

      Because when you take care of your little Smurfs, you are organizing activities. You are making sure that there is novelty. You go and make sure that they have new clothes, new friends, new explorations, new discoveries. You bring a tremendous amount of energy into that relationship, and so there is plenty to talk about, plenty to reflect upon, plenty of pictures to look at, et cetera. Now, tell me, how have you manifested, how have you shown to yourself, forget even to your partner, that your relationship matters? What have you done for that? Typically, the kid has a playdate every week, and many of the couples of the kind that you've just described have three dates a year, my birthday, your birthday, and our anniversary, and maybe we'll have sex on the anniversary just to make sure that we can still, you know, prove we are a couple, so to speak.

    14. BE

      Mm-hmm.

    15. EP

      So does it matter to you? And if so, what is it that you do that makes that importance visible?

    16. BE

      You know, it's so, uh, so simple what you're asking, and, and this is what I was saying to you before [laughs] we were recording, like, you have this way of reframing things with such simplicity, but they're so, it, it's so provocative at the same time. Is there, like, a myth out there or a fantasy, like, my partnership should work out in a way or, uh, without, without this effort? Or, uh, why, why is that so hard, to put the energy into your partnership to say, "Yeah, I have to plan things, too, and I also, just like with kids, I say sorry. I repair. I reconnect. I, you know, do fun things together. We play." W- why, why does that feel so unnatural- [laughs] ... in partnerships?

  7. 9:19 – 9:49

    Erotic energy isn’t just sex: it’s aliveness, play, and creativity

    1. EP

      When I wrote Mating in Captivity, I tried to really understand what happens to this, what I call the erotic energy, right? The creative energy that makes us feel alive, vibrant, vital. That's what you call to play, to, to roll on the floor-

    2. BE

      Create, yeah

    3. EP

      ... to laugh, to create, to tickle, to, to look at each other, to laugh together, et cetera.

    4. BE

      That's erotic energy. You're not just talking about, like, sexy time.

    5. EP

      No. No. No. I'm talking about that creative outburst, that-

    6. BE

      Mm-hmm

  8. 9:49 – 13:10

    Stability vs. novelty: what family life needs can undermine eroticism

    1. EP

      ... energy that makes you feel alive. Everyone understands it with children. And the way that I understood why it happens, there's a few different things happening in the couple, you know. First of all, when you have kids, it's a revolution in the couple. It completely shifts all the resources, the time, the attention, the intimacy, the money. It all shifts. Why? Because when you are in a relationship, you negotiate continuously two poles. You negotiate your need for stability and predictability and reliability, and then you also negotiate your need for novelty and exploration and risk and change and movement, et cetera. But when you have a child, you become stability. You become security so that the child can become adventure.

    2. BE

      Mm.

    3. EP

      The child itself is an adventure that you're going on and that you are accompanying, and so you try to stabilize yourself. And as a result, when people say, actually, if you ask me about sex, is that people say, "Sex in a couple? You must be kidding." And I say, "No, no, let's not talk about sex, but let's talk about that erotic energy, playfulness, imagination, aliveness, curiosity, engagement, et cetera." It is alive and well, but it is eros redirected. It all goes to the children.

    4. BE

      Mm.

    5. EP

      With the idea that the adults will kind of survive like a cactus-

    6. BE

      [laughs]

    7. EP

      ... that you not ev- don't even need to water, and on occasion, you look at, and it will give all its energy to the little ones. And slowly, it will begin to gasp. And then one person says, "What is going on here? Where are we at? We haven't, you know, whatever. We haven't gone hiking. We haven't been alone. We haven't gone on a date."

    8. BE

      Mm-hmm.

    9. EP

      "When is the last time we went dancing? When's the last time we touched each other and looked at each other the way that we are constantly adoring each other's kids? And when's the last time that when you say, 'How are you?' I didn't answer, 'How is Jimmy?' But actually, how are you? And not what you did and what you got done and what is off the list. How are you? What's happening to this person right here next to me, who is go- going through a lot of things?" That is the l- the, the, the loss that takes place, eros redirected. All that energy goes to the little ones. And then there's the next tension, which is that everything that family life flourishes on, consistency and routine, is often what kills the erotic. Eroticism thrives on this mystery, on the surprise, on the unknown, and it's as if people have enough of that coming just from their children.

    10. BE

      [laughs]

    11. EP

      And it's what, it's like eroticism thrives on everything that family life defends against.

    12. BE

      So those two poles, right?

    13. EP

      Yes.

    14. BE

      You're saying once you have s- young kids, like, it's actually understandable that you lean more into the stability and predictability side.

    15. EP

      Totally.

    16. BE

      Like, it's understandable. No one's doing anything wrong. [laughs] Like, that makes sense.

    17. EP

      And it used to be fine when we thought that family life should be about family, and that we didn't really care if a couple was romantic, and parents le- s- slept in separate beds the day after they were done conceiving. And all of that worked perfectly fine when we had a different conception of the adult relationship.

  9. 13:10 – 15:22

    Dogmatic parenting culture and ‘over-responsibility’ fuels overwhelm

    1. BE

      And in this day and age, right, where we are overwhelmed with information, I wonder also if that pull into the rigidity and the stability, right? Parents these days, it's like, "This is how you have to do this with your baby, and this is what you have to do." There's so much rigidity, right, and so much focus on, you know, the right way. I, I feel like these days there's even more of a pull, uh, you know, toward that, toward that end.

    2. EP

      Yes, because parenting and child-rearing practices have become very dogmatic in the West. Highly dogmatic, with a sense of over-responsibility on the parents, under-responsibility on the institutions and the society.

    3. BE

      Mm-hmm.

    4. EP

      So the parents are literally filtering through all the unknowns and all the pressures, and it's all on them. And every small movement can make or break the future of their little ones, with a sense of complete overwhelm and panic.

    5. BE

      Yeah.

    6. EP

      So the system in, that is in place, when I say the system, I'm saying the culture at large, is, um, really n- no longer saying child development is a natural process, that you go through certain stages, and the role of the parent is to shepherd you through those stages. No, today, child development is an artificial creation [laughs] on the part of the adults that are taking care of these children. And depending on how they respond to them, how they expose them, et cetera, they're going to create this creature versus that creature. So we are in a phase where culture is more important than nature.

    7. BE

      Mm.

    8. EP

      That changes, by the way. That changes every 10 years.

    9. BE

      Hmm. Are we close? Are we close to a shift maybe?

    10. EP

      I don't know, but I know that every time that you, you, that we get f- c- you know, hooked on a dogma when it comes to parenting-

    11. BE

      Yeah

    12. EP

      ... 10 years later, the truth of today is the joke of tomorrow.

    13. BE

      100%.

    14. EP

      So we have to really be under s- clear that these are not fundamentals. You have three. You know that what works for one is very different from what works for the other.

    15. BE

      Mm-hmm.

    16. EP

      And the, that what allows you to really flow is the fact that you can change because you see who is the other kids.

  10. 15:22 – 16:33

    Different kids require different parts of you (and it’s not a competence issue)

    1. BE

      I alway- I always say that, that my kids each require me to lead with a different part of me. Like, they all require different parents.

    2. EP

      Very well said. That's extremely well said.

    3. BE

      And so that's required me to do a lot of work to build certain... Certain of those parts are more natural to lead with.

    4. EP

      That's right.

    5. BE

      And others, you know, weren't, you know? [laughs] So-

    6. EP

      Which is super important in, when people get into the, "I'm not a good parent."

    7. BE

      Yes.

    8. EP

      Of course you, you seem to have been perfectly fine for child number one and two, or one and three, or whatever, and this one is more challenging-

    9. BE

      Yes

    10. EP

      ... because they call something in you, a part of your leadership, that is more difficult.

    11. BE

      Yes.

    12. EP

      But that is to do with the relationship and the fit between one temperament and another, not your competence.

    13. BE

      100%. I feel like it, it calls out the m- one of the more underdeveloped parts of you.

    14. EP

      Yeah.

    15. BE

      Right? So I'm gonna, I'm gonna push this back to you. How, how did you manage this all, like, when you had young kids? Your parenting, your partnership, your... And, and the other thing that I know we both care a lot about is to be playful or have any erotic energy in a partnership. So many, especially women, have lost that themselves, right? Like, the ability to, uh, create space and play.

  11. 16:33 – 20:26

    Esther’s deliberate choices: resisting norms and protecting the couple

    1. EP

      But you know, I remember saying to my husband, "There's a few things we're not gonna do."

    2. BE

      Hmm.

    3. EP

      I do not want us to one day wake up and just say, "There's nothing here."

    4. BE

      Yeah.

    5. EP

      I've worked with enough couples. I also understood that we are gonna do these things very differently, and, um, I'm gonna leave every once in a while for a week, and you're gonna manage perfectly fine. And if that happens, then I should know that I need to trust you so that when I'm next to you, I don't need to on- constantly monitor you with the remote control. I made a lot of what I think are not particularly popular things in, in the American context.

    6. BE

      Ooh, such like-

    7. EP

      Like, I didn't accompany my kids to their games every Saturday.

    8. BE

      Mm-hmm.

    9. EP

      I thought that this is bizarre. So I had a way of, of setting things by bringing in a cultural, a difference from, as a European and from many other places where I've lived, and I just knew that this is not, this is not the truth. This is just one way that people do it here, but people do other things completely different. And this was true from the, from sharing the bed, to letting cry, to the, [laughs] to the bottle, to the c- [laughs] you know, from the beginning, the way... I read child-rearing books in French, in Flemish, in Hebrew, and in English. And for everything that was, I was told, "This is how you should do it," I then went to read and I saw that there is other cultures where they say the exact opposite. And I thought, "Oh, well then I can go for my own intuition."

    10. BE

      Yeah.

    11. EP

      If there isn't one truth, then I can figure out which one is the one that fits here. And that was so important for me. I am mo- I always wanted to write an article about that very experience of what it was like from zero to three to read child-rearing books from different cultural contexts. It really gave me such permission. To not think that I was doing it wrong. Later, I, um, you know, we had our, our fights because I also came from a model of, you know, I thought we're going to be equal, and no, we fell into traditional gender roles and gender divisions that it was just like, and this happened to me as well. But what we did have is a shared desire to make sure that the relationship stays vibrant.

    12. BE

      Mm.

    13. EP

      Because I had seen too many couples die on the vine.

    14. BE

      Yeah.

    15. EP

      And I was determined not to make that happen. So we traveled alone from the moment they were very little. L- small, little things, but we gave ourselves time away. We continued to go and listen to live music because we like that and it's an energizing thing, or to go dancing every once in a while. I mean, we continued to do things that were not just in the identity of the parent. There was, we were t- two colleagues. We would go to conferences together. We would learn new things. So we had new things entering into our system as well. I wanted to socialize. I understood that if you want a rich social life, you invite people into your house.

    16. BE

      Yeah.

    17. EP

      They come to you, then the kids are there. They can meet these adults. They can develop relationships with them over decades. They're in their late 20s now. They know these people since they're born. And they, you know, it became a kind of an extended family of sort. And I, I was deliberate about a lot of these things, I have to say. I, I... It became a mission for me to arrive on the other side and to feel like I'm so glad now we have a few more decades, hopefully, alone again.

    18. BE

      Mm-hmm.

    19. EP

      But not like, you know, I have nothing to say to this person.

    20. BE

      Well, uh, here's something, uh, I want to say to all the listeners, because what I, what I hear you saying, though, is, like, being deliberate, being intentional, and there's a tension. There's, like, a little bit of a fight for, for being able to maintain your relationship and being able to have that vibrancy and that energy. It doesn't just happen, and I, I like you're insane-

  12. 20:26 – 21:39

    Nothing ‘just happens’ anymore: connection must be premeditated

    1. EP

      No, you know how I see it. In a long-term relationship, everything that's going to just happen already has.

    2. BE

      [laughs]

    3. EP

      It's extremely deliberate.

    4. BE

      Yes.

    5. EP

      It's deliberate to say, "I'm gonna put my hands on your hand, even though it's more hairy than on the little silky skin of the baby, because we need to stay connected." It's deliberate to say, "Let's go out," and not to dinner and sit across the table from each other and finally talk about the kids, 'cause now we have each other's ear.

    6. BE

      Yeah.

    7. EP

      It's deliberate to say, you know, "We are going to take a night away," and not feel guilty about it, but actually think that this is extremely important to resource ourselves. It's willful. It's deliberate. It's det- it's premeditated, I would even say.

    8. BE

      Yeah.

    9. EP

      And so is the physical connection. Sometimes you have to just say, "It feels good." You know, it's deliberate sometimes to go to the gym. Not every time you go to the gym, you just wanna go there and you're running. But somehow in your head you know that you have rarely regretted afterwards.

    10. BE

      Mm-hmm.

    11. EP

      So if the connection is good, it's deliberate to say, "I wanna invest in this." But it's equally deliberate to tell your partner, "Thank you. This is important."

    12. BE

      Mm.

  13. 21:39 – 24:03

    Role distribution and complementarity: valuing the ‘other pole’

    1. EP

      You see, what feeds the system is the acknowledgement of the effort, too. So when you have little ones, I think it's very natural in a family to have a role distribution. You asked me before what's one of, one of my important core truths. This would be one of them. One parent i-... The frontline parent. This is true in same-sex couples, no different. So it's, it's not always gendered, but there is a frontline parent. It's also the one that wakes up more easily, that has a different sensory threshold. It's the one that maybe is not working for the moment or works with more flexible hours and can attend more to the disruptions that children bring in the life, all of that. But everyone understands frontline parent. The frontline parent looks at all the stuff, the domesticity, the chaos, the needs of the children, the childcare, whatever, the doctor's visit, you name it. The other parent, you can blame them and resent them for not doing what you do, or you can thank them for thinking about the stuff that you can't think about 'cause you're too involved. So if you understand a role distribution is that one-

    2. BE

      Like what, though? Like what? 'Cause I, I'm just, I'm just hearing someone think, like sitting on the couch watching TV?

    3. EP

      No.

    4. BE

      Right.

    5. EP

      Like one person says, "Shall we go for a hike?" While the other one is talking about what needs to be done. Or, "Shall we take a bike trip?" Or, "Shall we go, shall we call so and so and go out on Sat-" "How can you think about it? Don't you see the freaking mess that is..." You know, you only talk about play and having fun. Yes, because you don't, and you need someone who reminds you. In every couple, over time, where people say, we were able to maintain it, there is always one of them who says, "The other person just didn't let it go."

    6. BE

      Mm.

    7. EP

      "They made sure that we had a coffee or a breakfast. They made sure we had our date night. They made sure we still physically connected. And even though I didn't feel like it, it's because they didn't let up." So instead of fighting the difference-

    8. BE

      Mm-hmm

    9. EP

      ... develop a complementarity around it.

    10. BE

      And uh, there's so m- And, and I love the way you say, "And thank, thank the other person for holding that, that pole or that part." And so, uh, one of the things you do that I love is you, you turn things on their head and, and help us all see things differently. So I'm thinking about someone who recently wrote in this as a question for you, right? So it was a woman married to a man, and she said, you know, "I do," exactly, "I'm the frontline parent." It's not what she said-

    11. EP

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah

  14. 24:03 – 31:31

    When she wants help and he wants sex: translating bids for connection

    1. BE

      ... but essentially, "I'm the frontline parent, and I need my husband to do more with the kids. I need, I need him to come home from work earlier. I need him to acknowledge the mental load I have. And then at the end of the day, he i- is basically trying to have sex with me. Like, doesn't he understand that, like, I can't have sex after feeling so alone and so unsupported?" W- what ... Like, help us see that a little bit differently, and, and what would be some steps to take?

    2. EP

      First of all, I've been that person, just so-

    3. BE

      Mm-hmm

    4. EP

      ... it's not I can think this way and I c- but I also, I force myself to think a different way. And the first thing I would want you to think is that probably he feels just as alone.

    5. BE

      Hmm.

    6. EP

      Because first of all, quite often if you think all he wants is sex, you're missing it. All he wants is to connect with you, to feel less alone, but it is also the case that for men, intimacy, tenderness, connection, touch, affection are only allowed through the license of the sexual language.

    7. BE

      Just pausing that for a second, 'cause I think that's so important. And, and-

    8. EP

      When we divide she wants intimacy, she wants not to feel alone, he wants sex, we're, we're often off. It is sometimes true, but it is often off.

    9. BE

      But you're saying we probably want the same things.

    10. EP

      We want the same thing.

    11. BE

      And that doesn't mean your husband is gonna say, "That's true, sweetie. I want vulnerability and intimacy."

    12. EP

      No.

    13. BE

      That's not right. [laughs]

    14. EP

      That is not the language in which it will be spoken. The woman has, you know, w- every woman has received a licensed language that is, "Help me."

    15. BE

      Hmm.

    16. EP

      Every man has received a licensed language which is, "Make love to me." But we want the same thing. We don't want to be alone. We don't want to feel disconnected. We don't want to feel that we've become a function in the house-

    17. BE

      Yeah

    18. EP

      ... that the other person barely sees us anymore, that we're just a machine-

    19. BE

      Yeah

    20. EP

      ... and that we're just on a task list all the time. So the, here's what I say to this woman. Instead of you want him to help, he, he want him to help you, it, this may be all true, but it's not useful. So I'm gonna try to give you a different way to approach your guy and your predicament, because if you continue as is, it's just gonna be more of the same. And I know where it goes. I'm 40 years doing couples work. I kind of know where it goes. I see it. I see you around the corner before you get there, and that's why I say it like that. It's really annoying, because I'm gonna make you say things that are not what you really wanna say. So I'm s- I'm, I'm twisting you. This is, I, I know d- I know the moment, you know? So if you went to your husband, and instead of, "I need you to do more with the kids," "I miss you. I miss us. You know, it's like days go by, and we barely talk, connect, check in with each other. It's like what the hell has happened? And I would love to be able to think more about us. I know you've been asking for that. I know that you often reach out, and I'm just cold to you. I know that I'm often resentful. Of course, I think I'm legitimately resentful, and I think I'm right. That may be so, but that may not be wise. And I have a feeling that I would be much more available to us if when I ask you certain things, you could also be more responsive to me." So you first acknowledge him, then you take ownership for what you're not doing, and only then do you ask for more, more for what you want.

    21. BE

      Hmm. That, that order of operations really matters, right? [laughs] 'Cause as soon as we lead with you're not or I need-

    22. EP

      Mm-hmm

    23. BE

      ... the defensiveness that then we're against each other, right? And, and-

    24. EP

      Yeah. You're in an adversarial situation, but it's not just that it is defensive, it's that when you are in that dance, you reinforce in the other the very position that you actually don't want.

    25. BE

      Mm-hmm.

    26. EP

      Why would they wanna do more when all you're telling them is that they do nothing?

    27. BE

      Yeah.

    28. EP

      Tell them that you also want to feel closer to them, if that's the case, which I hope it is. Because if all you want is just a helper, then your partner is picking up on something.

    29. BE

      Mm-hmm.

    30. EP

      Which is why I ask you, does your relationship matter?

Episode duration: 31:45

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