Sibling Rivalry in Tweens: How to Handle Conflict Without Taking Sides

1. 0:00 – 1:00

   Sponsor Message: Virtual eating disorder care with Equip

   1. BEDr. Becky0:00

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2. 1:00 – 2:01

   Why sibling relationships feel especially fraught in the tween years

   1. BEDr. Becky1:00

      of relationship, first experience of closeness, of conflict, of power, of repair, which is why it can feel so unsettling when that relationship suddenly gets rocky, especially in the tween years when an older child starts pulling away and a younger child is left trying to make sense of it. And as a parent, you're watching it all unfold, thinking, "What am I supposed to do here? Do I step in? Do I let it play out? What is my younger child learning from this?" Welcome to The In Between Years, a podcast from Goodinside for anyone raising, caring for, or loving a tween or teen. I'm Dr. Sheryl. The in between years are that stretch when kids are no longer little, but not yet fully grown. Friendships shift, emotions get bigger, identity is forming. So many moments that can leave parents wondering, what does it all mean? Recently, we've heard from several parents about how hard it is to

3. 2:01 – 3:37

   Meet Bridget KerMorris: therapist (and mom of seven) on middle-school family dynamics

   1. BEDr. Becky2:01

      parent tweens who have younger siblings. You have two unique developmental stages in your house, or even more, and tween behavior, the pushing away, the toggling between childish and adolescent, mean and loving, can be especially hard for that younger sibling to understand or deal with. Today, I'm joined by Bridget KerMorris. Bridget is a therapist who works closely with middle schoolers and their families, and she's also the mom of seven, so she brings both deep clinical insight and a lot of lived experience to these sibling dynamics.

   2. BKBridget KerMorris2:40

      I am a mom of seven. My youngest is six, and I have a 20-year-old, so that's my age range, and I am parenting my fourth middle schooler right now. And so I'm right in the thick of it with middle school parents, and so that's what I try to help parents with, this relational part of middle school. Because so much is happening in middle school, if you can have a really, really strong foundation at home, then kids really can navigate these years and move on and have a close relationship with their parents, and just be very, like, healthy and happy kids.

   3. BEDr. Becky3:11

      Okay. So I'm so amazed to hear that you are a mom of seven and a Stanford lawyer and a marriage and family therapist. Like, it's amazing to hear all these things about you. So I'm gonna have a blast with you right now, 'cause I'm gonna share an email that I got from a viewer, and you and I are gonna just chat about it, and we're gonna do this together. Are you ready for this?

   4. BKBridget KerMorris3:35

      I love it. Yes, let's go.

4. 3:37 – 5:05

   A parent’s dilemma: the 12-year-old who’s sweet one minute and mean the next

   1. BEDr. Becky3:37

      Okay. Okay, so I got an email from a parent of a 12-year-old boy and an eight-year-old girl, and the parent says sometimes her son is kind and wants to play, and sometimes he's mean or completely ignores his younger sibling. So before we even get into what to do, can you help us understand what we're actually seeing here? Like, how do you think of this when you hear a parent ask this kind of question?

   2. BKBridget KerMorris4:06

      First, I would just say, "Oh, my love," like, "I hear where you're at, and, um, I think that's so hard." And then when we look at it from the chil- children's angle, yeah, like, 8, 12, I mean, these are kind of middle years, but yeah, it's, the, your 12-year-old son is stepping into an age that is different. So there is this, like, you know, you differentiate between parents and children, but also siblings differ- differentiate as they grow into adulthood.

   3. BEDr. Becky4:34

      Yeah, absolutely. So I'm curious, like, what do you think, because you've had, you've had these age of kids before, what shifts do you think happen between, like, 8 and 12 that all of a sudden make this four-year span so incredibly different? Like, what have you seen? What have you experienced? How can we explain this maybe for parents who are just going through this, like, big age span and now it feels really consequential or really, like, a big deal?

5. 5:05 – 7:46

   What changes between 8 and 12: identity testing, big emotions, and social survival

   1. BKBridget KerMorris5:05

      I know for parents it can look like this pulling away from them, but it's really a shifting of kids are kind of walking around being like, "Am I likable?" Like, "Do people even like me, um, if I'm kind of prickly or hard?" Because sometimes I can't help it, right? Like, the emotions, a lot of middle schoolers, all middle schoolers, don't really understand what's going on for them inside. So, "If I'm prickly, like, will people still come back to me? Am I pushing them away?" That's a lot of internal work going on for these kiddos, and, um, so that's the real shift. Whereas an eight-year-old, I mean, certainly every eight-year-old is unique, right? But I think there's less of this, like, untangling. There's less of, like, "Whoa, where did this feeling come from?" Right? Like, I know for me, my older kids have said to me, in middle school, "I don't even know how I feel," right? Like, "I'm, like, happy, but for some reason I feel sad, and then I miss being little and... But I'm excited about growing up." [laughs] So yeah, those are the shifts I see, and I always look through this relational lens.

   2. BEDr. Becky6:04

      Yeah. I love that you, you were talking about what happens inside. So one of the things I think about, actually, as you were talking, I also looked down and I'm like, "What is this mom actually asking?" And I'm like, "Oh, she's actually asking, like, why is my 12-year-old, like, sometimes mean, sometimes understandable, but sometimes probably also sweet. Like, he feels like my wild card." And that makes sense. And for that 12-year-old, like you were talking about what's happening on the inside, and like in the brain, that's what I think about. In the brain, he's saying like, "I already know my role within my family with my younger brother, with my parents. So now, in order for me to survive in the outside world, I actually have to step away from these people and start getting in the social mix of things to find out, how am I in that world? Who likes me? Who's rejecting me? What do I like to do with them? Wait, but I feel like I have to fit in with them," at almost sometimes the cost of anything, even being, you know, mean to a younger sibling, making fun of them on a bus or, you know, picking on them. And although, yes, it's real that it feels painful and hard to see your kid changing that way, they're actually driven to do that so that they can say, "Oh yes, brain, you can calm down when we're outside of our family, 'cause I can survive in this world. I'm figuring this thing out." If they stayed there, if they didn't sort of navigate and push boundaries and push the limits and, you know, they need to be corrected to say like, "You can have those feelings, but you can't talk to your brother that way," right?

   3. BKBridget KerMorris7:46

      Mm-hmm.

6. 7:46 – 11:54

   From manager to coach: redefining the parent role as “home base”

   1. BEDr. Becky7:46

      If they don't have that, that's the part that gets more confusing. So I see what you're saying, like you're saying like, and also a parent's role shifts, and it does. I think when that same mom is parenting her eight-year-old, she's very much in charge still and making play dates and telling them what time they're gonna go to bed and what they're gonna eat and all the things, where they have to be. And then with a 12-year-old, you start becoming more of like, you know, a side-by-side coach. You're still sharing with them like, "Hey, this is how you would do this and this," but they've got a lot of opinions because they're wired to be separating from you so that they can figure themselves out and then come back to you. Like, that's where I always call it like home base. I'm wondering how you, like how you think of it. I don't know if you use the same terminology or different place. Like, how do you see the parent's role as the kid steps out then comes back, and steps out and comes back?

   2. BKBridget KerMorris8:41

      They think, "Oh, maybe I've done something wrong because my kiddo has made a decision that, oh my gosh, is ... Like, that's not the kid they are," right? And so I really try to bring a humanness into this relationship between parents and their middle schoolers. And so, um, one, like the parents, I think, I wanna remind them like how complex we are as parents, like how we don't always do everything that is in integrity. We don't always lean into our values at every moment, but this is why the relational skills at this age are so powerful. So you asked like how do I think of the home base. I think of it as a place where if parents can really love on themselves, like you know, self-compassion is a non-negotiable when you're a middle school parent. You have to be kind to yourself as a parent, and you have to really figure out like, "What is coming up for me as I see them go out and I can't protect them from everything?" Maybe they're getting a mean text, or they were excluded from the group chat. I mean, Dr. Sheryl, like you work with this age parents too, and just like, oh, yes, there's so much coming up. But I, I really try to remind parents like, "You're doing such a good job. You're doing so much right here." And when a parent can acknowledge that, that I actually find is the hardest thing for the parents I help, for them be, to be kind to themselves as parents. And when they're like, "Oh," like you said like, "He's doing his job of going out," and really like how is he gonna learn like how things land? Like, oh, actually, I get that reaction. I always say, "The world's gonna teach your child a lot," [laughs] right? There's lessons we can learn in the home, and they can ... and, and certainly like come back to the secure base and feel loved for absolutely who they are, but also when they're out in the world, they need that feedback, right? And so I think that is, it's so important. It's so fluid, right? But gosh, middle schoolers love their parents, and the parents are like, "Are you kidding me? They just like slam the door or roll their eyes." And I'm like, "No, no, no." Like attachment research tells us, and also just from working with so many families, I'm like, "Oh, your middle schooler's like obsessed with you." You know, they really, really want that from their parents, but they wanna be able to mess up sometimes, right? And that teaches them so much.

   3. BEDr. Becky10:58

      Yeah. You know, it brings up really, there's that first issue. You talked about self-compassion as a foundation, then the idea that, yep, 12 years old is really different from 8, and so they're gonna be out there doing things that are different and don't always seem so kind or nice. And then there's this third issue of siblings, sibling relationships, right? If this mom is looking at her two kids and they're fighting, or they're arguing, they're not getting along, what does that say about me as a parent? What am I failing at? And I think there is that understanding or maybe like a widening, a widening of the lens of understanding what are sibling relationships, and what do these dynamics mean? So I'll start with you. How do you think about sibling relationships? You're surrounded by them.

   4. BKBridget KerMorris11:51

      Yes.

   5. BEDr. Becky11:51

      You're witnessing them in your own home every day.

7. 11:54 – 13:10

   Sibling dynamics as a “lifelong group project”: normalizing conflict and teaching values

   1. BKBridget KerMorris11:54

      Um, [laughs] okay. I think of sibling relationships as a lifelong group project. No matter what, forever you're connected in some way. So I think of a couple things here. I think of in the moment- How we can help when they're having a moment of conflict, when people are saying unkind things. Like, I think in this case we're talking about, like, if the 12-year-old is saying unkind things to the younger sibling. So there's things you can do in the moment, and then there's just a whole lot of talking you can do outside of the moment, casually talking about relationships and what it's like to be with a sibling, and how it's okay to not always like them. It's not like they're just, like, shoving their younger sibling and then never thinking about it again. And so that's such a cool part of these middle years, that you really can start having more conversations about, about values, about who you wanna be in the world, about how you wanna treat people, and then also about, like, yeah, you can take space, and sometimes you can really not like your sibling. That is okay. That is okay to not like. You can feel inside, like, "I hate little brother right now, little sister." You can feel that. That's, like, a part of you coming up, right? And then there's how you behave, right? Then there's how you act, and you don't always have to act with every feeling that you have inside. But by all means, help your kid be honest with themselves about it.

8. 13:10 – 18:14

   Fairness, favoritism, and the parent trigger: validating without taking sides

   1. BEDr. Becky13:10

      Yeah. One of the things sometimes we like to say is, you know, your feelings aren't always facts, right? Sometimes you can observe and be like, "Hmm. Hate? Well, maybe I don't really." I mean, do you really hate your sibling? "Well, I don't like them right now." Okay, you don't like, you don't like what they did. You don't like that, you know, they made fun of you, or they cracked a joke about you and everybody laughed. That didn't feel good. So it's really, um, it's really interesting, 'cause yes, there's lots of feelings between siblings. There's often ... I mean, we all talk about sibling rivalry. There's often this what we call rivalry, which I think really is this comparison.

   2. BKBridget KerMorris13:44

      Yeah.

   3. BEDr. Becky13:44

      And siblings are often about fairness. Like, "That's not fair," or, "You love them more."

   4. BKBridget KerMorris13:51

      Absolutely.

   5. BEDr. Becky13:51

      "He's your favorite," right? And they say those things because they are, they're testing this out. Like, what they're really saying is, like, "Right now in the moment, I feel less than, and I think that you value that other sibling more than me." And that's where I also see that parents can get triggered. Like, they get triggered. Like, "Don't be ridiculous," and then they invalidate it, right? "Don't be ridiculous. I love you all the same. You're just, you know, you just drove me a little crazy earlier, but that doesn't mean I don't love you, and I love you all the same," right? And I s- I use that example 'cause there's nothing wrong with saying that to your kids. Inherently, that's a pretty natural reaction for parents to say. Like, "I don't love anybody more than the other, but, you know, you guys are just fighting, and, you know, this is a normal..." I think this is a very normal, probably daily for some people, conversation. However, I do think there's a way to validate. Doesn't matter the age, right? The younger one, the older one, there's a way to validate them that doesn't say, "Oh, you're right. Right now, I really do like the other one better, 'cause they're cuter and they still like to snuggle with me."

   6. BKBridget KerMorris14:57

      That's [laughs] yeah.

   7. BEDr. Becky14:57

      Um, right? There's a way to do that validation. So I'm wondering how, how you look at it, like, how you think about, you know, advising parents, or, like, just having that conversation with parents around how do you validate a kid who's basically saying, "This isn't fair. You love them more, and you hate me," you know, when they're struggling?

   8. BKBridget KerMorris15:17

      Absolutely. Well, one, I would always thank them for bringing that to me as a parent, because I really try to remind middle school parents, because that's also something that's happening at this age, Dr. Sheryl. Our kids are bringing us tougher stuff, right? Like, this eight-year-old is not really diving into, like, interpersonal dynamics so much, right? It's just ... And also, I was gonna mention this earlier, but by the time kids are eight, I think his parents were like, "I'm amazing." Like, "I'm such a good parent." Like, "We're going on vacation. The kids are sleeping past 6:00," right? [laughs] Like, it feels different. And then you get into this middle school, 12 years old, and they're ... Part of it, I think, is that they're asking tougher questions. So even the fact that my kiddo's coming to me and being like, "This isn't fair," and, and that's why I wanna remind parents, like, just like a s- a kiddo might be like, "I hate my sibling," just say that inside, right? And we help them, like, kind of shape that and, like, dig into that. As a parent, it's like, how am I feeling as my kid is bringing this harder stuff? Because 100%, I never feel like I love any of my kids more than the other kid, but they're different. And so I do think there's this ... Like, and especially when you've got one in, like, elementary school, one in middle school, they're different. And so being able to have a nuanced conversation. So thank you for asking me that, and that is never my intent, for you to feel like I love your sibling more than you. Like, oh my gosh. And then you can really s- start ... 'Cause, you know, there's intent and impact, right? But it's like the impact, maybe in some of what we're doing as parents, does land on this middle schooler as you like them more, you love them more. And so let's help them flesh that out, right? But you, as a middle school parent, you need to do this work of being like, what comes up for me as my kid is asking these questions? 'Cause essentially, middle schoolers, they're really good at holding up a mirror to us as parents. And-

   9. BEDr. Becky17:10

      Oh, they sure are.

   10. BKBridget KerMorris17:11

       Yes.

   11. BEDr. Becky17:12

       They, they are. And so I'm listening to you talk, and I'm imagining, right, I'm imagining this scenario that a parent is confronted with, and I think, like, I want parents to hear what it could sound like to validate a kid who's like, "I think you love them more," and like this not, you know, or, "This is not fair." Which is to say a validating statement would be, like, "I really hear you saying that right now you s- you see things as being unfair."

   12. BKBridget KerMorris17:38

       Yeah.

   13. BEDr. Becky17:38

       "And you, you think that I'm loving or having a better time right now, you know, with this other sibling. And I can see how you would think that, because lately you and I, or earlier today, you and I had some conflict. And then you're looking at your brother and you're thinking, well, they don't look like they're having any problems. Like, you seemed, you smiled at him, you gave him his lunch, you went out the door, you gave him a hug and said goodbye, and there was no problem. But then you stayed back, and you and I had an argument. So I could see- How you would feel that way, right? I think that's the first part.

   14. BKBridget KerMorris18:12

       First love that.

   15. BEDr. Becky18:12

       That's the validation.

   16. BKBridget KerMorris18:14

       Yeah.

9. 18:14 – 22:51

   Repair as the relationship skill: communicating importance and inviting feedback

   1. BEDr. Becky18:14

      And then the repair. So what does repair for you sound like?

   2. BKBridget KerMorris18:18

      I know with a lot of kids that they're like, "Well, I know my parents love me. Like, they buy me clothes." Like, well, you know, it's almost love is, like, almost a throwaway-type thing. But at this age, I feel like kids really think we don't like them very much, and I would see this in my clinical practice where parents would bring in their kid and, um, I would assume you had the same experience. Parents would bring in their kid, and they'd be like, "My kid has so much anxiety. They're the coolest kid in the world. She's so funny. She's so wonderful." And then I would... But it would be, you know, child therapy, right? I would be working with the child, and the child would say, "My dad really doesn't like me. I'm such a pa- like, I'm such a pain in the family. I make everyone upset." And I was like, "Oh, my gosh," right? Like, and this is when you think this is a family system, right, where we're not ... And the parents weren't doing anything wrong. The kid wasn't doing anything wrong, but they were just talking past each other. And so when I think of repair, and saying something like, "You are so important to me. Um, and, yes, like, I want this feedback. Is there something that we can do together that would, would help, that would make you feel like, um, like, would make you feel like you're important to me," um, it's such a beautiful way both to repair and to help our middle schoolers know, like, they can repair, right? Because middle schoolers, again, like, really love their parents. That's why I really ... I mean, I adore teenagers, too, but in the middle school years, middle schoolers love their parents, so they're looking to them for, like, how do I do this? How do I even mess up and say sorry? And so it's such an opportunity, so, yes, like, beginning where like, "Thank you for bringing this, and being true. What you shared was so beautiful. Like, this is what's actually happening in our home now. I'm so glad you brought that up. This shouldn't be something we don't talk about. And gosh, buddy, you're so important to me. Like, yeah, like, let's figure this out." Because, like, I want us to get along, but also in relationships we're not always gonna get along. And so just having this culture, right? It's a family culture then of, like... And as you were talking about, like, stretching out, coming back, stretching out, that happens in, you know, close relationships, too.

   3. BEDr. Becky20:26

      Yeah, I think, you know, that piece you said, "You're so important to me," I think, I think that we could even go a layer deeper, right? You can start off by saying, you know, they say y- things aren't fair. And then, you know, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I know that lately it's been really hard. I know that you and I have had some tensions. We're arguing about what you're gonna wear or, you know, what you're allowed to do and, you know, those kind of things, and so I can see that," right? That's part A. Then, "You're so important to me," right? So when you're working on sort of the repair, "And your thoughts, your opinions, what you think and feel about our relationship is equally or more important to me than anything else."

   4. BKBridget KerMorris21:14

      Uh, yes.

   5. BEDr. Becky21:15

      Right?

   6. BKBridget KerMorris21:15

      Right.

   7. BEDr. Becky21:15

      So really getting, honing in on that, like, "What you have to say, even if it's not so fun or hard for me to hear, is still something that I wanna hear."

   8. BKBridget KerMorris21:27

      Yeah.

   9. BEDr. Becky21:27

      "I wanna know that." That's where I think we elevate this. Like, whoa, like, "You're so important to me" could be on the same level of like, "I love you," right? It's something that, that's like, "I know you love me, and you..." But to say, like, "I care about all of the things that you have to say, even when they're hard"-

   10. BKBridget KerMorris21:47

       Mm, mm-hmm

   11. BEDr. Becky21:48

       ... I think that's, like, a repair and a message that probably for many parents they never, ever heard.

   12. BKBridget KerMorris21:55

       Yeah, yeah. Well, and it's really, I think, telling your child, like, what a gift it is that they're bringing this to you, right? I mean, that's so tender how you shared that. I love that layer deeper. Because, yeah, it's, uh, so much of what parents worry about in this age, and then into the later teen years, is, "My kid doesn't talk to me. My kid doesn't come to me." And so this is where parents can really lay that foundation of anything, you can bring any- you can bring anything, right? But as a parent, for your kid to be able to bring an- anything, let's just be realistic. As a parent, we do need to be very kind to ourselves, right? Because it can be triggering when they bring this kind of stuff, as you and I talked about. And so really when you're saying that, it's like you really have to, to feel it, like, mean it. And, um, but I love that, 'cause when we think about a long-term close relationship into the teen years and beyond, this is what's gonna do it. These are the moments, right? So I love that you deepen that. Yeah.

10. 22:51 – 24:24

    When to step in vs. step back: pattern vs. moment, and safety thresholds

    1. BEDr. Becky22:51

       Yeah, and I think, you know, one of the things I think that can be helpful for parents is this idea around, you know, okay, yeah, your, you know, your kids were fighting with each other, or they can't seem to be getting along lately. And so is this a pattern, or was that a moment? That's, like, a good differentiating, I think, question, because we can, we as parents, we put a lot of our identity into how our kids do or perform or get along with each other. And so if we think, "Oh, my gosh, they've been fighting so much lately, and they say awful things to each other," A, I think sometimes we personalize that. Like, "I'm failing. That's me. I'm do- clearly I'm doing something wrong." And B, that does, that takes us out of the space of evaluating, like, it was almost like in the beginning, like, not all feelings are facts. Like, is, is this really a pattern, or are these moments? And if it's, there, there's a difference, what does that mean about me?

    2. BKBridget KerMorris23:51

       I think parents can trust themselves to know when to step in and when to not step in. So I think, yeah, we're gonna look, like, is this a pattern, um, or is this kind of a one-time thing? Is safety implicated? And when I say safety, there's obviously physical safety, but, like, emotional safety, too. Because- Kids can carry what their siblings say to them, right? They can carry that into adulthood. And so I think those are probably the two things in the moment that I would look at as a parent. But you're right, I mean, either of those can really hit at our heart and our sense of who we are as a parent.

11. 24:24 – 31:58

    Helping the younger sibling understand puberty and change (and not self-blame)

    1. BEDr. Becky24:24

       Yeah. I think, you know, as, as you were talking about that, and we're talking about, like, insight essentially, right? Like, how can I take a step away to gain some insight into what's really going on here? The other thing I think about with 8 and 12 is, have we explained to the eight-year-old, in an age-appropriate way, what the 12-year-old is going through?

    2. BKBridget KerMorris24:47

       Mm-hmm.

    3. BEDr. Becky24:47

       How, you know, what does middle school mean? And when, now that he's 12, or have you noticed, you know, w- whatever his name is, you know, "Have you noticed Ryan? He's ... How he's gotten taller?" Maybe, you know, his voice is getting a little deeper, or whatever's happening, right? Some, some signs of puberty, and explaining to an eight-year-old, "That's called puberty, and it happens to everyone. And when that happens, kind of a couple year process, and you grow and change on the outside and also on the inside. And that can mean that you have, like, these bigger mood swings, and the things you used to like to do, you don't like to do." So I'm, like, purposely, like, saying it how I might talk to an eight-year-old, because that's one thing that I've heard before about younger siblings is younger siblings are often like, "What happened to my brother or sister?" Like, "Why are they so different now?" And I think a lot of times we don't think to explain, you know, in an age-appropriate way to the younger siblings like, "Hey, here what's, here's what's going on," because they may not have, be going through it yet. "Here's what's going on." It, A, not only provides them with real information, but also helps them depersonalize what can probably feel really personal. Like, "Why don't you wanna play video games with me anymore, or hang out with me in my room anymore?" Like, it just for a younger sibling can feel like whiplash. Like, overnight you're just-

    4. BKBridget KerMorris26:05

       Yeah

    5. BEDr. Becky26:05

       ... not really nice to me anymore.

    6. BKBridget KerMorris26:08

       Yeah. No, I'm so glad that you mentioned that, because I think that what you're sharing, again, Dr. Sheryl, is let's have a home where we're honest about what's going on. We're not pretending, right? And this is when we talk about having real relationships with each other, and when we think long-term into the adult years. Like, these are the families that are close long-term, the ones who are human with each other and real with each other. So yeah, I'm thinking about when we talk to the younger sibling about it, one I'd also wanna know, what are you noticing? Like, how is this feeling for you? If it's a relational pattern, then it can, and it can be in the car, right? It doesn't need to be like a family powwow. Um, but it could be in the car. I'm like, "Hey, have you two noticed lately that, um, it seems like the same thing keeps happening? Like, how would you guys describe it?" And sometimes that can light a match, right? So we just go into it cautiously, but it's also like, "Hey, let's talk about how relationships ebb and flow, and it doesn't mean it'll always be like this," right? It's not re- But relationships do change, and that's such a, a cool thing to learn, actually, to have this elasticity, like, fluidity with relationships. And also, like, what can you control? What you do, right? And so even an eight-year-old can start to learn that. And with that, what can you control? Like, like, you don't need to fix anything right now, so. 'Cause I'm sure you've seen it, too, some really tender things where the eight-year-old's, like, trying to not ask so much, and like, "Oh, like, big brother can ..." I mean, it happens in my home, too. Like, "Oh, they can choose the movie," or whatever, you know? And it's like, that's okay sometimes, right? Like, that can be kindness. But also we wanna just be very clear, like, this is a normal part of development for them, and you'll go through it, too, right? And so, um, you don't need to try to make anything easier, right? Mom and Dad have got this, and I really, really want you to come to me anytime you're feeling confused.

    7. BEDr. Becky27:57

       Yeah. I, I think that that's sort of, um, there's a couple things I've, I've been writing down. Like, I wrote the word hope down, and I think a hopeful message for parents is that whatever state of a relationship your kids are in right now is not necessarily mean that this is the way it's always gonna be.

    8. BKBridget KerMorris28:17

       Yeah.

    9. BEDr. Becky28:18

       These relationships, right, they, they change and grow together, and they're very unique. Um, and the other thing that you said that I wanna underscore is, um, I love asking kids the question, like, "What have you noticed? What have you heard?" You know, "What's your experience?" I think that's great, 'cause sometimes we might go into it assuming, like, oh, man, it's been a week, and I'm, I'm gonna s- you know, say to my kid, "Listen, I know you and your brother have really been fighting a lot this week." And it's such a great reminder, like, before you dive into your thoughts and assumptions, just maybe start with more curiosity. Like, "How's it been, you know, this week with Ryan? How, how's it been going?" Right? And so let them let you know, like, "Oh, it's fine. It's..." You know, and maybe they genuinely, it's sort of like, "Yeah, you know, Mom, Dad, you just don't realize, like, this is just what we do now." You know, like, it could be something like that. It could be that they break down crying, and you actually didn't even realize how hard it's been for them. But I love the idea of saying, like, just sort of like, "How's it been for you? How do you think things are going?" first, before we dive in with our assumptions.

    10. BKBridget KerMorris29:25

        Yeah. That, I'm so glad you double-clicked on that. Well, and I was thinking as you were saying it, I mean, so wise, Dr. Sheryl. We're, you're like, what is the skill that each of them needs now? And when we think about scaffolding, right? We're almost, like, scaffolding this changing relationship, as opposed to getting in the weeds. I mean, I don't even know all the language they're using, right? [laughs] Like, there's such, this, all these, like, new words and terminology, and like, sometimes I think they're, like, insulting each other, but like, they're really ... Like, "No, Mom, this means..." Like, it wouldn't even make sense for me to try to referee it. But it's like, what do they need right now? 'Cause also, we haven't mentioned this yet, but there is a power differential, right? When we think about kids of different ages, there's probably different sizes. Certainly in middle school, kids are growing really fast. So- These are all things that bring up a lot of fear in us as parents, and they're just realities as well. And so I think, yeah, like, what skill do you need? Like, the, for the younger kid, do you need help speaking up more, right? Do you need... You know, what, how can we help in these moments? Again, uh, if, unless safety is implicated, right? Like, if there's something physical going on, or like really cruel words. You know, I just wanna mention to parents, like, you can have, like, the ability to just stop it right there if there's safety, like, you know, either like, um, again, like cruel words. You can still have family values. That's something I always wanna point out, too, because I think, you know, language, it is your family. As parents, you can have value around, like, how you say things. If you don't tell each other maybe to shut up or something like that, right? You can have that. But beyond that, it's like, yeah, what do they need? Do they need help speaking up? Do they need help choosing different words to explain how they're feeling, or do they need the language to like, "Hey, I wanna step away now," right? Like, these are all okay, but it's not like any which way you say it is okay. Um, so I love that. And I wanted to mention, too, when you said, it's so brilliant, right? Like, how their relationship looks now is not the end of the story, right? I mean, that's the cool thing about being in a family, and I just think with middle school parents, I'm like, "There's so much runway," right? We're in the, we're in it every day. It's a day-to-day thing, and of course we want it to be pleasant and to feel good, but also, like, one day is just one day. Like, one argument's just one argument, and what's this idea of like you can always begin again, right? I mean, we live together, and even in the middle school years, it does feel like college is right there, but there are six years, right? Six, seven years until they are gonna head to college. So that's a lot of time to be able to help them get the skills they need.

12. 31:58 – 35:14

    Closing takeaways: conflict can be a good sign, and self-compassion keeps you steady

    1. BEDr. Becky31:58

       I could talk to you for much longer about this, but I am wondering, uh, we both talked about a lot of different things, if there was maybe one key point that you would want parents to hold onto about our conversation today. Is there one certain nugget, I think it was also important, but is there one thing that you would wanna just say, words of encouragement or hope for parents who are sort of in the thick of this right now?

    2. BKBridget KerMorris32:26

       Yes. Uh, I'm, I'm so glad you, you asked that, because as I was, was thinking about it, I was like, "What is, like, the thing I want parents to really know when they see sibling conflict?" 'Cause I know it brings up so much for us as parents. But they're doing their job. Like, this is like a relational training ground with siblings, and by the way, if you have an only child, like, they're, they have other relationships in their lives. But just know that they're doing their job. It's kind of like as parents when we mess up, and then we repair. [laughs] It's like we can be so hard on the mess up, but the repair is where the real relationship happens. It's the same for your kids. So when siblings aren't getting along, that's actually a good sign. That's a good sign that they're gonna be able to grow in their relationship, because it's actually, there are siblings who grow up with pretty much no conflict, this is not common, right? But no conflict, and then they're not close. And, and of course we don't have to have our kids close as adults, but I would say 99.9% of the parents who come to me want their kids to be close as adults. And so when we think about what's gonna make that close relationship, it is gonna be these moments of them learning how to repair with each other, and oh, my gosh, that is such a great skill they can bring into the world.

    3. BEDr. Becky33:38

       If you're parenting kids with a wide age gap, and you feel like you're constantly negotiating between two worlds, you are. You're parenting across development. Your four-year-old is not too much. Your eight-year-old is not too demanding. Your 12-year-old is right where he's supposed to be. And you are not a bad parent because you can't make everyone happy all the time. Starting with self-compassion when you're under stress goes a long way. "I'm a good parent in a hard stage." If this episode resonated, send it to a parent who's juggling two different developmental universes at once. And if you're curious to talk to other parents who are in this in-between place with you, these conversations are happening every day among members in the Good Inside community. Consider joining them. Visit goodinside.com to learn more. Okay, let's zoom out. Deep breath. [exhales] This in-between stage feels hard because it is hard. If you remember nothing else, remember this: They act like they don't need you, they still need you. I'll see you next week. [outro music]

Episode duration: 35:16