Stop Trying to Make Your Kids Happy | Dr. Becky

1. 0:00 – 1:41

   Intro: you were already good inside

   1. KBKate Bowler0:00

      Always a good time to rediscover the sense that your life before you were useful to anyone, you were already good.

   2. BEDr. Becky0:09

      Mm-hmm.

   3. KBKate Bowler0:11

      Inside. Good Inside. Good Inside.

   4. BEDr. Becky0:14

      [laughs]

   5. KBKate Bowler0:14

      Just reading all the branding.

   6. BEDr. Becky0:16

      [laughs] I did not ask her to add that.

   7. KBKate Bowler0:27

      I just want my kid to be happy. Of course we do. We want our kids to feel light, we want them to feel loved, we want them to move about the world with ease and confidence. But at the same time, maybe optimizing for our kids being happy is a little bit out of our control, or has a cost to us, or isn't actually good for them long term, which doesn't mean we want our kids to be unhappy. But in today's conversation with Kate Bowler, I talk about happiness and joy, and I can tell you it gave me a totally different perspective on my days with my kid. I mean, I end most days thinking about how the day went, and I know I'm gonna be asking myself different questions to assess [laughs] my day because of this conversation, and I have a feeling it's going to do that for you as well. Kate is a professor at Duke University. She's the author of so many amazing books. And she's honestly just a deep thinker who translates her thoughts into very practical, manageable ways to go about your life differently today. I know you're going to love this conversation. I think it's also going to lead to new thoughts and new associations, and a new way of seeing your day.

2. 1:41 – 3:00

   "You're only as happy as your unhappiest child"?

   1. KBKate Bowler1:41

      All right, here's where I wanna start. You are only as happy as your unhappiest child. True, not true?

   2. BEDr. Becky1:48

      I think people think it's true, and it, it shouldn't be.

   3. KBKate Bowler1:52

      Hmm. I've... Not that you wanna, like, look into the eyes of your child [laughs] and be like, "I'm thrilled"

   4. BEDr. Becky1:58

      Sorry you're having a bad time. [laughs]

   5. KBKate Bowler2:00

      [laughs] Is it the worst? Not for me. [laughs]

   6. BEDr. Becky2:04

      [laughs] But I think this endless calibration of our own emotional worlds to the unhappiness of our children has, like, got to stop.

   7. KBKate Bowler2:14

      Yeah. Where, okay, so you're saying I'm so attentive to and perceptive of my kid's emotional state, which probably I think I've noticed i- is more and more common, right?

   8. BEDr. Becky2:25

      Mm-hmm.

   9. KBKate Bowler2:25

      Because there's maybe, maybe an overcorrection, but I think it comes from a good place of feeling like nobody looked at my emotional state [laughs] when I was growing up, right? And-

   10. BEDr. Becky2:34

       No one, no one cared in the '80s

   11. KBKate Bowler2:35

       No one cared, no. And so I'm not gonna do that.

   12. BEDr. Becky2:38

       No.

   13. KBKate Bowler2:38

       But now I'm so attentive, and you're saying, 'cause your language is around kind of that being the barometer, now my mood, like, I don't even know what my mood is until I've kind of assessed my kids.

   14. BEDr. Becky2:50

       That's exactly right. And I think it starts with moms in particular believing that happiness is ultimately

3. 3:00 – 4:07

   Why moms became the family's happiness manager

   1. BEDr. Becky3:00

      the goal. Like, and I know we really share this deep and abiding hatred [laughs]

   2. KBKate Bowler3:05

      I would, yeah

   3. BEDr. Becky3:05

      But happiness has-

   4. KBKate Bowler3:06

      Hatred of happiness

   5. BEDr. Becky3:07

      ... hatred. [laughs]

   6. KBKate Bowler3:08

      Quote us, Kate and Dr. Becky hate happiness. Is that the-

   7. BEDr. Becky3:11

      She hates it.

   8. KBKate Bowler3:12

      Yeah.

   9. BEDr. Becky3:12

      I hate it.

   10. KBKate Bowler3:12

       I hate it.

   11. BEDr. Becky3:13

       [laughs] Agreed.

   12. KBKate Bowler3:16

       Yeah. I think, well, 'cause happiness has such a distinct psychological profile. It's supposed to feel like ease. And if you think about happiness as ease, and then suddenly it's women's job to guarantee ease-

   13. BEDr. Becky3:35

       Mm

   14. KBKate Bowler3:35

       ... it's wild when you think about all the things that would have to fall under that list for that to be true. Do you, do you want a snack?

   15. BEDr. Becky3:42

       No, my, yeah

   16. KBKate Bowler3:43

       Is the temperature okay? Do you want a snack?

   17. BEDr. Becky3:45

       Right? [laughs]

   18. KBKate Bowler3:45

       Is the temp- Like, it would take, [laughs] it would take a thousand details to put everyone in your life at ease. Okay, we're gonna come back to the first thing I said, but now I'm onto a second thing, so I'm just gonna follow my thought, which is I just want my kids to be happy, but s- that swap is really powerful 'cause it changes that sentence for me. I just want things to be easy for my kid.

4. 4:07 – 7:57

   Happiness vs. ease

   1. KBKate Bowler4:07

      Like, and then it's, oh, I- I have a little more dissonance to that. Is that, do I really want that?

   2. BEDr. Becky4:12

      Yeah.

   3. KBKate Bowler4:13

      Right?

   4. BEDr. Becky4:13

      Yeah. I, I think you're right. I think we start with saying, "I just want them to be happy. I care so much about their happiness" but when you think about it like, "I want my kid to feel relaxed all the time. I want my kid to feel only comfort and no distress. I don't want my child to experience the gamut of human emotion-

   5. KBKate Bowler4:37

      Mm-hmm

   6. BEDr. Becky4:37

      ... and ever be uncomfortable"

   7. KBKate Bowler4:39

      Mm-hmm

   8. BEDr. Becky4:39

      ... then I think we start to realize how many things we would have to do to fill in a gap that maybe we should not be filling.

   9. KBKate Bowler4:47

      Oh, my goodness. I mean, yeah, the, it feels less enticing as soon as I replace it with ease, but maybe because I know if my kid only experiences ease and comfort in their early years when their body is being wired up for the rest of their life, then they're locked into a version of life where they should always be comfortable in that ease, even in adulthood.

   10. BEDr. Becky5:07

       Yeah.

   11. KBKate Bowler5:08

       Maybe even locked into a version of life where anything even a little bit hard feels this hard just 'cause their bodies kind of experience, like, wh- what, what, what is this? I never, I've never ha- [laughs] I've never had this before. But also nothing even about childhood is always comfortable and easy, so the other part of that that doesn't feel good to me is my brain goes to, oh, is that my job, then, to morph and to get ahead of something and to take away and to exit and th- that-

   12. BEDr. Becky5:36

       Yeah

   13. KBKate Bowler5:36

       ... it makes me think about how exhausting it can be as a mom in modern-day parenting, but maybe some of it is-

   14. BEDr. Becky5:41

       Yeah

   15. KBKate Bowler5:41

       ... this, this is how I'm operating all the time.

   16. BEDr. Becky5:43

       Yeah. I think we feel, like, plugged in to everyone else's nervous system.

   17. KBKate Bowler5:48

       Mm-hmm.

   18. BEDr. Becky5:49

       And that feels, well, for a lot of people, like, very tight and anxious and kind of, and worried-

   19. KBKate Bowler5:56

       Yeah

   20. BEDr. Becky5:56

       ... and notice-y. And if that's... It sort of, it, so then it creates two very distinct roles. The mom as the professional happiness manager

   21. KBKate Bowler6:06

       Mm

   22. BEDr. Becky6:06

       ... and the child as the, as the bubble-wrapped precious-

   23. KBKate Bowler6:15

       Darling

   24. BEDr. Becky6:15

       ... who is, whose job it is to feel this, to receive love as comfort.

   25. KBKate Bowler6:21

       Mm. Well, another question for you. It, you said is happiness ease? Is that, is that the correct understanding of happiness or do we misunderstand it?

   26. BEDr. Becky6:30

       Yeah. Happiness, well, it'll m- it'll make you feel relaxed, but happiness is, um, I think our culture thinks it's just positive feeling, but it's really many things that are going your way at once that will cause you to feel like you can settle in.

   27. KBKate Bowler6:47

       Mm.

   28. BEDr. Becky6:47

       And so for me it would be this delicious beverage, a conversation with a friend I love-

   29. KBKate Bowler6:55

       You're welcome for both

   30. BEDr. Becky6:56

       ... a gorgeous setup. Like, things are... You feel yourself... Like, it, it, in that way, happiness is much more like math than other things.
5. 7:57 – 12:51

   What joy actually feels like

   1. KBKate Bowler7:57

      Those are, those are different.

   2. BEDr. Becky7:58

      I thought that happiness and joy were the same thing-

   3. KBKate Bowler8:01

      Mm

   4. BEDr. Becky8:01

      ... until I looked into happiness as this ease, this set of things going your way, a whole world built of small circumstances.

   5. KBKate Bowler8:13

      Mm.

   6. BEDr. Becky8:13

      And as someone who has had really long stretches in my life where I couldn't line things up, I spent a lot of my 30s with a stage four cancer diagnosis. Like, I've had long seasons where happiness was not always available.

   7. KBKate Bowler8:26

      Mm-hmm.

   8. BEDr. Becky8:27

      And so I just kinda went looking, like, well, if it can't always be happiness, is there some other beautiful thing-

   9. KBKate Bowler8:32

      Oh

   10. BEDr. Becky8:33

       ... that we can s- really, like, still promise each other-

   11. KBKate Bowler8:36

       Yeah

   12. BEDr. Becky8:37

       ... even when times get tough? And it turns out that joy is, is, like, a really beautiful, unusual thing.

   13. KBKate Bowler8:46

       Mm.

   14. BEDr. Becky8:47

       Like, if happiness is relaxed, joy is this big, bright, enlivening feeling.

   15. KBKate Bowler8:54

       Huh.

   16. BEDr. Becky8:54

       It'll make... It's like it startles you awake.

   17. KBKate Bowler8:56

       Mm.

   18. BEDr. Becky8:57

       So there's nothing relaxing about joy. In fact, some of the [laughs] historical descriptions of it, I really liked the C.S. Lewis one. It was so funny. He said, "You know it's joy when you feel like you've been stabbed with longing." [laughs] And I was like, stabbed?

   19. KBKate Bowler9:08

       Wow.

   20. BEDr. Becky9:08

       That's a little excessive.

   21. KBKate Bowler9:10

       Wow.

   22. BEDr. Becky9:10

       But, like, I, it makes you feel like it's outta nowhere.

   23. KBKate Bowler9:13

       Huh.

   24. BEDr. Becky9:14

       You c- you couldn't have predicted, predicted it 'cause it'll feel like two things. It'll feel like a surprise of temporary wholeness. So it's not like that slow math of happiness where everything's adding up. If you get a moment-

   25. KBKate Bowler9:28

       Mm

   26. BEDr. Becky9:28

       ... of joy, it's like in that one moment you will suddenly say, "Even if nothing is okay right now, it is deeply okay."

   27. KBKate Bowler9:37

       I'm thinking about myself in this chair being like, "Ah, happy." Like, that's happiness. And joy makes me... It's activating. Like, I wanna get out of the chair and go do something or be some effervescent, bubbly thing.

   28. BEDr. Becky9:51

       Yeah, that's right.

   29. KBKate Bowler9:52

       Mm-hmm.

   30. BEDr. Becky9:52

       'Cause it'll feel like your soul is saying yes.
6. 12:51 – 15:52

   What kids already understand about joy

   1. KBKate Bowler12:51

      we can learn from kids about joy.

   2. BEDr. Becky12:52

      Well, if the first one would be, like, everyone says, like, "Well, you have to stay in the moment." Well, what's nice about kids is, like, they can't not stay in the moment anyway. Like, no one has to be like, "Guys, come back to the now. Come back to the now."

   3. KBKate Bowler13:04

      Come back to the now. [laughs]

   4. BEDr. Becky13:07

      [laughs] I'm gonna start saying that. I'm gonna see what my eight-year-old does.

   5. KBKate Bowler13:09

      [laughs] That's right.

   6. BEDr. Becky13:11

      He's always in the now. That's why he doesn't wanna leave, he doesn't wanna, you know, anything.

   7. KBKate Bowler13:14

      Exactly.

   8. BEDr. Becky13:14

      Just wants to keep playing.

   9. KBKate Bowler13:15

      I live in the anxious middle future, where something might happen.

   10. BEDr. Becky13:21

       Every kid has this wonderful, like, oh, oh, ah. They- they'll be, like, drawing things.

   11. KBKate Bowler13:28

       Mm-hmm.

   12. BEDr. Becky13:28

       You know, like, just constantly making a world where they are.

   13. KBKate Bowler13:31

       Yeah.

   14. BEDr. Becky13:31

       And what's so beautiful about it is it's e- that kind of person, if joy is a surprise, that kind of person is much easier to surprise. Their head isn't in their phone. They're not totally stuck on a story of how it's gonna be. Like, that kind of person is open to, like, being visited by something lovely.

   15. KBKate Bowler13:53

       Mm.

   16. BEDr. Becky13:53

       So I think their quality of presence is... And I- I- I do that for myself. I try really, when- when I'm like, I don't know, I'm- I'm- I'm humming about something, I'm really too worried, I really try just to look at the, the look on my kid's face. 'Cause there's just, like, a... There's just, he's got these giant froggy eyes, and there's just an aw- awareness of where he is that makes me, that, like, brings me back-

   17. KBKate Bowler14:19

       Mm-hmm

   18. BEDr. Becky14:19

       ... to myself. So I think we can, like, definitely follow their lead in that way. The second thing that is so amazing about kids is you kinda have to believe in joy for it to find you.

   19. KBKate Bowler14:33

       Mm.

   20. BEDr. Becky14:33

       Because you have to be able to quiet those voices of- of doubt or despair about the world or about your life that says nothing will ever get better. And if you f- if you, if you follow the lead of your kid, they will very likely believe already that the world is full of treasures for them to find. And I know that, because my in-laws gave my son a metal detector. [laughs]

   21. KBKate Bowler15:00

       [laughs]

   22. BEDr. Becky15:02

       Just a walking nightmare.

   23. KBKate Bowler15:03

       Yeah.

   24. BEDr. Becky15:03

       A beep, beep, beep walking nightmare. [laughs]

   25. KBKate Bowler15:05

       Yep.

   26. BEDr. Becky15:06

       So it is full of literal treasures for him.

   27. KBKate Bowler15:08

       Uh-huh.

   28. BEDr. Becky15:09

       But when I watch him ruin my backyard with debris, what I'm, [laughs] what I'm learning from him every time is, like, he'll take a little bottle tab, you know, like the end of a aluminum can?

   29. KBKate Bowler15:22

       Yeah.

   30. BEDr. Becky15:23

       And I'll be like, "Can we just throw this out?" And he'll be like, "Dr. Pepper, the best drink of the day."
7. 15:52 – 20:03

   Why so many moms don't believe joy is for them

   1. BEDr. Becky15:52

      as adults.

   2. KBKate Bowler15:53

      How do we lose it?

   3. BEDr. Becky15:55

      I mean, who, who has time-

   4. KBKate Bowler15:59

      There's a lot of-

   5. BEDr. Becky16:00

      ... for that?

   6. KBKate Bowler16:01

      [laughs] For joy? To, to, to what? I w- what, you're gonna ask me to love my life?

   7. BEDr. Becky16:05

      I was planning on just living it, thank you.

   8. KBKate Bowler16:07

      Yeah.

   9. BEDr. Becky16:07

      [laughs] So some of it is that. Some of it is... And I think, I think it kind of almost made me sad when I was doing this joy research, realizing how many particularly women and moms don't believe that joy is for them. They really don't. Like, they would do anything to make their kids experience a beautiful moment.

   10. KBKate Bowler16:29

       Yeah.

   11. BEDr. Becky16:30

       They're gonna run around screaming about core memories-

   12. KBKate Bowler16:33

       Yep

   13. BEDr. Becky16:33

       ... until they die. [laughs] They're gonna buy expensive concert tickets a million miles away-

   14. KBKate Bowler16:38

       Yep

   15. BEDr. Becky16:38

       ... for, like-

   16. KBKate Bowler16:39

       For an artist they don't like, let's be honest.

   17. BEDr. Becky16:41

       [laughs]

   18. KBKate Bowler16:41

       Very basic. [laughs]

   19. BEDr. Becky16:42

       To be like, to be in, like, a Ramada Inn with three other people's children.

   20. KBKate Bowler16:46

       Yep. Mm-hmm.

   21. BEDr. Becky16:46

       It's like-

   22. KBKate Bowler16:47

       It's really true

   23. BEDr. Becky16:48

       ... anything for other people.

   24. KBKate Bowler16:50

       Yeah.

   25. BEDr. Becky16:50

       But if you ask them, "What lights you up? What brings you delight?"

   26. KBKate Bowler16:56

       Mm.

   27. BEDr. Becky16:56

       It will, it, nothing will come to mind.

   28. KBKate Bowler16:59

       Mm-hmm.

   29. BEDr. Becky17:00

       And that's because it's been a long time since we've even just wondered if that was something we should expect from our, a day, a week, a year, a life.

   30. KBKate Bowler17:15

       Yeah.
8. 20:03 – 22:45

   Finding joy during a stage four cancer diagnosis

   1. BEDr. Becky20:03

      end of everything I loved, I still had bizarre, beautiful moments of joy. And, like, I would have told you that that's impossible.

   2. KBKate Bowler20:14

      Oh.

   3. BEDr. Becky20:14

      That's... Like, I'm not that good of a person. [laughs] I can't engineer that. And I, you know, I am-

   4. KBKate Bowler20:22

      Are you thinking about one now?

   5. BEDr. Becky20:23

      There was just, like, I felt so... When you're that sick, nothing can be okay, right? Any- anything anyone says just isn't that true. Like, of course it will be horrible. Of course it will be painful. Like, I- the story is, well, nothing will ever be good again. And but then for a moment, like, I felt deeply whole, like loved, loved by other people, loved by God, just, like, loved. It was like, but it was like a little, it was like a gift and it, it came from outside myself. I couldn't have made it up. And then I felt, and I think this is the piece that I just think is so, like, important right now, is I felt carried by it because it, like, gives us strength to, to feel whole. And so if you're going through a horrible time, like I know it feels like we always have to crawl back out of the hole, crawl our way back to happiness, but, like, just knowing that, like, something a- as beautiful and temperate as joy can come find you in the dark and, and somehow convince a, a terrified and scared person that, like, their life is still somehow deeply meaningful and beautiful, like, I'm, I'm so grateful I can know that we can all have that. And, like, kids can have that. We can have that at any stage of our life. And I just, I know despair feels very loud for people, especially when they're tired, and they just wish, like, "No, no, just let me take care of everyone's needs, and then we're gonna be okay." And if it can't be like that, maybe we can renew a belief that the l- the best parts of life are not gonna skip you and go find somebody else with better luck and more money, [laughs] you know?

   6. KBKate Bowler22:21

      Yeah.

   7. BEDr. Becky22:21

      They can still, they can still pick you out of a lineup and convince you that, that your life is beautiful.

   8. KBKate Bowler22:28

      Are there things that block our potential for joy, even if there aren't things-

   9. BEDr. Becky22:32

      Yeah

   10. KBKate Bowler22:32

       ... that give us joy?

   11. BEDr. Becky22:33

       Yeah. I think huge b- joy blockers are, one is, is, is our, is our deep resentments, and I would love it if women-

   12. KBKate Bowler22:43

       Mm

   13. BEDr. Becky22:44

       ... felt

9. 22:45 – 27:16

   Resentment as a hidden joy blocker

   1. BEDr. Becky22:45

      very comfortable [laughs] talking-

   2. KBKate Bowler22:47

      Mm

   3. BEDr. Becky22:47

      ... about their resentments.

   4. KBKate Bowler22:49

      Yeah.

   5. BEDr. Becky22:49

      Because, I mean, it took me halfway through a book about joy to be like, "Am I very resentful?" [laughs]

   6. KBKate Bowler22:56

      Were you?

   7. BEDr. Becky22:57

      [laughs] Yes.

   8. KBKate Bowler22:57

      Yeah. [laughs]

   9. BEDr. Becky22:58

      About the amount of happiness I've created for other people.

   10. KBKate Bowler23:02

       Yeah.

   11. BEDr. Becky23:02

       Yeah. I'm pretty pissed off.

   12. KBKate Bowler23:05

       Mm. How much happiness have I created? Now, your, your language was interesting that you didn't say how much joy. So you're saying, "Am I a kind of condition creator for so many other people that it's blocked my ability to experience joy?"

   13. BEDr. Becky23:18

       That's, hmm, that's a perfect way to put it.

   14. KBKate Bowler23:21

       Hmm.

   15. BEDr. Becky23:21

       That is exactly how I felt. And I d- I had, I did not realize that I was, there was that much sort of just calcified frustration, especially because I had dug my way out of a tough situation and then tried to make it not just good for other people, easy for other people.

   16. KBKate Bowler23:42

       Hmm. What do you mean?

   17. BEDr. Becky23:43

       I mean, every, and I'll say this lovingly, every man in my life will never go without a snack, you know? I had to call myself on it the other day when I real- [laughs] realized I was opening chip bags for men on airplanes if they looked like my dad. [laughs]

   18. KBKate Bowler23:58

       Wow.

   19. BEDr. Becky23:58

       And I was like, "No, ma'am."

   20. KBKate Bowler23:59

       Hold on. This is old.

   21. BEDr. Becky24:00

       [laughs]

   22. KBKate Bowler24:00

       This is very old. My therapist would tell me to pause here.

   23. BEDr. Becky24:03

       [laughs]

   24. KBKate Bowler24:04

       Hold on.

   25. BEDr. Becky24:04

       This is going straight to therapy. [laughs]

   26. KBKate Bowler24:07

       Hold on a second.

   27. BEDr. Becky24:08

       This stranger looked so happy. I looked so surprised. I was like-

   28. KBKate Bowler24:11

       Wow

   29. BEDr. Becky24:11

       ... "And there's something wrong with me."

   30. KBKate Bowler24:13

       Mm.
10. 27:16 – 32:43

    The exercise: naming what it cost you

    1. KBKate Bowler27:17

       And so fair to say if you're wondering if it counts, just experiment. Experiment with it counting. Write it down.

    2. BEDr. Becky27:24

       Yeah.

    3. KBKate Bowler27:24

       Okay.

    4. BEDr. Becky27:25

       I think that's right. Take yourself seriously.

    5. KBKate Bowler27:28

       Yeah.

    6. BEDr. Becky27:28

       I don't think women believe themselves.

    7. KBKate Bowler27:31

       That's right.

    8. BEDr. Becky27:32

       So write it down and then just see. Do you believe that it cost you? Because if it did, it did.

    9. KBKate Bowler27:39

       I, I mean, I just wanna pause on that for a second. I always think the most confidence-building words you can ever say to a kid are just, "I believe you." That, that is what confidence is. It's believing your own experience, right? And, um, I, I, I don't think we were born not believing, not believing ourselves, but it was snatched, you know?

    10. BEDr. Becky27:58

        That's good.

    11. KBKate Bowler27:59

        Yeah. I feel like at the end of the day, if I think to myself, like, "Was I happy? Were my kids happy?"

    12. BEDr. Becky28:05

        Yeah.

    13. KBKate Bowler28:06

        Um, I'm oriented toward kind of the negative, toward the no, 'cause any moment of, like, not happiness becomes proof that, oh, I guess I wasn't happy. And that feels like the opposite of joy, where like, oh, was there... 'Cause joy is momentary anyway. Were there moments of joy? Like, oh, yes, yes, yes. It's so much easier to get to the affirmative-

    14. BEDr. Becky28:26

        Yeah

    15. KBKate Bowler28:27

        ... about joy than it is about happiness.

    16. BEDr. Becky28:30

        I totally agree, and I think it's also then such a relief to know that, like, it wasn't that big of a deal. I didn't have to do very much for it to happen.

    17. KBKate Bowler28:40

        Yeah, exactly.

    18. BEDr. Becky28:41

        Like, I wasn't a better person. I'm fine, for the record.

    19. KBKate Bowler28:44

        Yeah.

    20. BEDr. Becky28:44

        Not great. [laughs] Like...

    21. KBKate Bowler28:46

        Average.

    22. BEDr. Becky28:46

        And joy still happens to me all the time. [laughs]

    23. KBKate Bowler28:49

        Yeah.

    24. BEDr. Becky28:50

        And you know, like, I was on this little trip with my family this weekend, and it, it was, it was hot. There were a lot of non-orchestrated moments-

    25. KBKate Bowler28:58

        In- yeah

    26. BEDr. Becky28:58

        ... of family togetherness I didn't enjoy.

    27. KBKate Bowler29:00

        Uh-huh, yeah.

    28. BEDr. Becky29:00

        But, um, I started doing this ridiculous thing where I look over at my husband in a historical site, and I realize he doesn't know where we are. [laughs] Like, no.

    29. KBKate Bowler29:10

        He doesn't know you're at world's biggest pistachio.

    30. BEDr. Becky29:12

        Well, also, like, we're at Versailles, and he's like, "Who's Napoleon?"
11. 32:43 – 35:23

    "Everything happens for a reason"?

    1. KBKate Bowler32:43

       um, except that we don't usually know most of the reasons for why awful things happen, and it does become pretty cruel to look at someone whose life is coming apart and be like, "Just so you know, I, I know the reason."

    2. BEDr. Becky32:55

       Mm-hmm. What do kids understand about joy that adults do not?

    3. KBKate Bowler33:01

       They believe that the world is full and ready to be discovered, and that there are hidden treasures everywhere for anyone with eyes to see, and that is not only a fun and ridiculous way to see the world-

    4. BEDr. Becky33:18

       But you'll also find a lot of things in their pockets later that you'll have to throw out when they get th- to the dryer. What do you say to a parent who's realizing, "I have not experienced joy in a really long time"? I think first acknowledging the sadness to that, that that probably meant that they brought a lot of joy to other people, um, and that, and that it's always a good time to rediscover the sense that your life, before you were useful to anyone, you were already good-

    5. KBKate Bowler33:51

       Uh-huh

    6. BEDr. Becky33:51

       ... inside. Good inside. Good Inside.

    7. KBKate Bowler33:57

       [laughs]

    8. BEDr. Becky33:57

       Just reading all the branding.

    9. KBKate Bowler33:58

       [laughs]

    10. BEDr. Becky34:04

        I did not ask her to add that.

    11. KBKate Bowler34:06

        [laughs]

    12. BEDr. Becky34:07

        We are just spirit animal sisters.

    13. KBKate Bowler34:10

        Okay.

    14. BEDr. Becky34:10

        Um, when your son is older and someone asks him, "What was your mom like when you were younger?" what do you hope he says?

    15. KBKate Bowler34:18

        Well, I like that he always says that I'm friends with strangers, and it's [laughs] such a funny thing to say. But it's my feeling that the world is, is open, that there, that somebody will always have a funny story, and that, and that if joy is contagious, like, I am very likely to be, like, blown away by someone else's ridiculousness. So I, I think it's my favorite compliment, and I, I hope I still get it later.

    16. BEDr. Becky34:44

        That you're friends with strangers.

    17. KBKate Bowler34:45

        Just friends with strangers.

    18. BEDr. Becky34:46

        I mean, that's how we started out, Kate.

    19. KBKate Bowler34:48

        [laughs] That's right.

    20. BEDr. Becky34:49

        There we are. Well, thank you. You are just... You, you spark joy in so many, in me every time I talk to you, in your writing, in your blessings, and just-

    21. KBKate Bowler35:01

        Thanks

    22. BEDr. Becky35:01

        ... your way. Um, so thank you for bringing so much of it. So many things stick out about that conversation to me, but the one I'll keep thinking about is that if I ask myself, "Are my kids happy? Are my kids happy today?" I'm so

12. 35:23 – 37:11

    A better end-of-day question to ask

    1. BEDr. Becky35:23

       oriented to think about all the ways my kids weren't happy, and then to say, "No, my kids weren't happy," and feel like a failure. If I ask a different question, "Was there a moment of joy today?" it's so much easier to find the yes. It's actually so much more possible to kind of notice a moment and allow that to be meaningful without having one moment negate everything good in the day. Now, I asked Kate to do something. You know, Kate is just so incredibly talented at writing practical, everyday blessings, right? And I asked her to write a blessing for our listeners, for parents who, yeah, want the best for their kids, for parents who want their kids to be happy, but maybe also want a little bit more joy in their life. And so I'm going to link to that in show notes, and Kate just has this amazing way with words. Trust me, it's going to be worth going there, clicking on it, maybe even printing it out or screenshotting it to save it. Now, let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground, place a hand on your heart, and let's remind ourselves even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. Maybe as is right for this conversation, even as we struggle on the outside, remain capable of joy inside. I'll see you soon. [outro music]

Episode duration: 37:11