The "More" Kids

1. 0:00 – 0:11

   Intro

   1. DRDebbie Reber0:00

      [gentle music]

2. 0:11 – 0:47

   Defining the “More” kid: intensity across environments

   1. DRDebbie Reber0:11

      I think there are people for whom navigating many environments that are kind of expected in society, whether that's school for little kids or the workplace for adults, social situations, there is just a little bit more intensity in how they experience it. And I, I like to think of the parents of these kids as kind of being engaged in an extreme sport. I say that we're like the wingsuit flyers of parenting because everything's just a little bit more intense for us.

   2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy0:42

      [gentle music]

3. 0:47 – 3:56

   Who are “kids who are more” (deeply feeling, reactive, resistant)?

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy0:47

      Let's talk about kids who are more. You might be thinking, "More what?" I'm just gonna say it again, because if you have one of these kids like I do, I know you get it. Kids who are more. More emotional, more reactivity, more resistance, more tears, more meltdowns, more defiance, more. And if you're nodding along, this episode is definitely for you, and I can promise you, you are one of millions of parents who are nodding and cannot wait for the rest of this. I often think about these kids as deeply feeling kids. I love these kids. I understand these kids. I have one of these kids. I worked with so many adults who were these kids, and I'm so proud of my approach to help these kids and their families. I'm also very aware that other people think about kind of kids who are more in a different way, and to me it's just all about parents having some framework that makes sense to them and help them feel empowered, which is why I'm so excited to have Debbie Reber on the podcast today. Debbie is a parenting activist, a bestselling author, a podcast host, a speaker, and a founder and CEO of Tilt Parenting. She focuses on helping parents of differently wired kids, and she's full of frameworks and strategies that are so important for parents to hear. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this. I don't know about you, but I'm already thinking about my family's summer vacation. And after so many years of traveling together, we now love staying on Airbnb, so our vacation can feel more like a vacation. On a recent trip to visit family in Chicago, we found the perfect family-friendly Airbnb that had toys for my youngest, family games for all of us, and even the same book series my oldest was in the middle of reading. Oh, and it gave me and my husband a living room, so we could actually have time to ourselves after our kids went to bed. It was an all-around win. Did you know that while you're away, your home could be a perfect Airbnb for another family? It's a great way to earn extra money to use on your family's next vacation. And speaking of making the most of family vacations, if you have a trip coming up, don't forget to check out our recent episode on family travel. We've gathered some practical and actionable tips to make your next vacation even more enjoyable for everyone. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host. [gentle music] Hi, Debbie. So good to have you here. I have so many questions for you. I would love to hear about why you use this term differently wired-

   2. DRDebbie Reber3:48

      Mm-hmm

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy3:48

      ... as opposed to neurodivergent. Are they the same? Are they different? Let's just kind of jump in there, and I know we'll go to lots of places after that.

4. 3:56 – 6:57

   Why Debbie Reber prefers “differently wired” (and how language reduces stigma)

   1. DRDebbie Reber3:56

      Yeah, sure. So I see them as being synonyms for each other, but when I first started Tilt Parenting, which was now eight years ago, and was early on in my journey, I have a 19-year-old, but was realizing my kid was differently wired, um, I really struggled with all of the deficit-based language surrounding neural divergence. And neural diversity as a term was really not commonly used in the vernacular, so I started talking about differently wired as a way to have a positive reframe for really any way of moving through the world, whether that's with a diagnosis of autism or ADHD or learning disabilities, or just someone who is maybe a little extra sensitive and isn't really thriving in their environments.

   2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy4:42

      And understanding it that way, differently wired, like, how do you feel like you've seen that help so many parents-

   3. DRDebbie Reber4:48

      Mm.

   4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy4:48

      And kids?

   5. DRDebbie Reber4:49

      Yeah, I mean, I, and I will say when I came up with the term, I got my child's approval, which was a big deal, because he was very, like, connected to the, the stigma and the negative connotations associated with so many things. So when I put it out into the world, the response was really immediate. People were so happy to have a term that felt positive, that wasn't focused on deficits, that didn't make them feel like they were, like, a member of a club they did not wanna be in. And it just kind of made sense in a way that, yeah, it just created more common peace. So it was really well-received.

   6. BKDr. Becky Kennedy5:24

      Mm. Sounds like there's something internally that just, like, felt right to people.

   7. DRDebbie Reber5:29

      Yeah.

   8. BKDr. Becky Kennedy5:29

      Like, ugh, that resonates.

   9. DRDebbie Reber5:30

      Yeah, yeah.

   10. BKDr. Becky Kennedy5:31

       And how would you describe, like, how are these kids, these adults even, like, how are they different from maybe a neurotypical or maybe you say typically wired kid?

   11. DRDebbie Reber5:40

       I mean, I think of them as kind of the "More" Kids, um, and I know you have your Deeply Feeling Kids. I think they're similar in a lot of ways. I think most neurodivergent people are deeply feeling people. I think they're people for whom navigating many environments that are kind of expected in society, whether that's school for little kids or the workplace for adults, social situations, th- There is just a little bit more intensity in how they experience it.

   12. BKDr. Becky Kennedy6:09

       Mm.

   13. DRDebbie Reber6:09

       And I, I like to think of the parents of these kids as kind of being engaged in an extreme sport. I say that we're like the wingsuit flyers of parenting, because everything's just a little bit more-

   14. BKDr. Becky Kennedy6:20

       Yes

   15. DRDebbie Reber6:21

       ... intense for us.

   16. BKDr. Becky Kennedy6:23

       I really love that. It really resonated. Just everything's more. Like, okay, so I see that kid is having a hard time starting basketball. Oh, like, the hard time my kid's having is, is more. Like, I see it more.

   17. DRDebbie Reber6:36

       Yeah.

   18. BKDr. Becky Kennedy6:36

       It comes out more there, it comes out more... There's, there's a lot more. And so one of the things I often say to parents of deeply feeling kids is if it feels like your kid is having, let's say it's, you know, their, their moments are bigger and more difficult than other kids, like, I don't think you're crazy. Like, I, I believe you, and that's actually a helpful starting point. Is that... Is... You, you feel the same?

5. 6:57 – 10:58

   The parent experience: self-doubt, feeling behind, and “compare & despair”

   1. DRDebbie Reber6:57

      Yeah, absolutely, because I think so many of us feel like failures from the get-go, because, you know... I mean, again, when, when my child was young, there just weren't the same resources and even conversations around this, and so I constantly felt like I'm doing this wrong. I'm doing everything my friends are doing. I'm getting much different results, and so it's really hard to not make-

   2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy7:19

      Right

   3. DRDebbie Reber7:19

      ... that mean I'm bad at this.

   4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy7:21

      100%. So, you know, one of my ways in here, right? So I'm a clinical psychologist. I'm in private practice. I'm seeing so many families. I had my first kid. Right before I have any kids, I'm like, "I know exactly what to do." Then you have your own kids, you're like, "Wait a second." But I had my first kid, and definitely not perfect, definitely had some struggles. And I would say, like, when I would do things that I would think would be helpful, like, in general, and not, like, magic, but, like, they kind of were helpful. Like, there was a little bit of a, not perfect linearity, but if I zoomed out, a little bit of linearity. And I remember parents in my practice at the time, not all of them, some of them saying, "Dr. Becky, I'm doing exactly what you told me to do, but my kid is escalating. My kid covers their ears. My kid just yells, 'Stop talking, stop talking, stop talking.' My kid hisses. My kid is growling and trying to scratch me." And in the back of my head, Debbie, I, I, I, I feel awful saying this, but I want to be honest. In the back of my head, I'd think, like, "I, I don't think you're-

   5. DRDebbie Reber8:23

      Mm-hmm

   6. BKDr. Becky Kennedy8:23

      ... I don't think you're doing it right."

   7. DRDebbie Reber8:24

      Yeah.

   8. BKDr. Becky Kennedy8:24

      I would. And I think on the surface I'd say to them, "Okay, like, let's roll with it. We'll try some other things," right? And I started to get a little creative. But I did have that thought. And then I had my second kid, and I was like, "Wait, wait a second." Like, I'm watching myself do the things that, like, I know in my body-

   9. DRDebbie Reber8:44

      Mm-hmm

   10. BKDr. Becky Kennedy8:45

       ... I did with my first. Like, and I really kind of even hear the tone the same. And holy moly, and all of those peoples, their stories, like, it was like I heard echoes of them. And I was like there's, there's something here. And I don't know if you feel like that, but maybe for me, I have to be honest. Like, it was like I had to experience it to, like, feel it and believe it in the realest way.

   11. DRDebbie Reber9:08

       Yeah.

   12. BKDr. Becky Kennedy9:08

       And it is, it was so different.

   13. DRDebbie Reber9:10

       Well, I will say that I rolled the dice once, and I got lucky the first time. So I have one child, um, and I r- really went into my parenting journey feeling so intentional and equipped, and I'm a researcher, and I'm a problem solver, and my husband and I are, like, you know, a great team. You know, he's a project manager. Like, we've got this. And so I didn't have this experience of feeling competent once things started to really deteriorate, and I, I just felt like I was always behind and not able to figure out what to do to support this kid.

   14. BKDr. Becky Kennedy9:43

       Yeah, that feeling of feeling behind.

   15. DRDebbie Reber9:46

       Yeah.

   16. BKDr. Becky Kennedy9:46

       Like I'm trying all the things, and, like, nothing's working, and, you know, and then I see the kids around me, and I feel like their parents are doing the things I'm doing. But this comparison, can you talk about that a little bit?

   17. DRDebbie Reber9:57

       Yeah.

   18. BKDr. Becky Kennedy9:57

       I feel like that's so common.

   19. DRDebbie Reber9:58

       Oh my gosh. Yeah, I talk about the compare and despair, which is just a reality of life when you're raising a kid who's moving through the world differently. I think early on, you know, for me personally, it was so challenging, again, because I, I do think of myself as a pretty competent person and a problem solver. And so to just be continually feeling like a failure, and then seeing judgment from other parents, or seeing other kids kind of m- moving on in their education, or making choices, or doing things that I always envisioned would be what our family looked like, um, was so painful. And, you know, and I'll just say it doesn't really... That's always something that I personally, and many families in my community, have to always be aware of, especially as, like, graduation season rolls around, or prom season, or... You know, there, there are always these reminders that our path is a little different, and so a lot of the work we have to do is, uh, is on coming to peace with that.

6. 10:58 – 12:27

   A crucial reframe: nothing is wrong with you or your kid—your approach needs to change

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy10:58

      Yeah. I think you're right, that compare and despair, because I think one of the reasons we despair is on some level we think something's wrong with us, or we feel like our kid has something wrong with them.

   2. DRDebbie Reber11:08

      Mm-hmm.

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy11:08

      Right? And I think that's also one of the first messages I know... You're right. Like, there's so many frameworks maybe for understanding the same thing. Maybe understand something differently. To me, it's just about having any framework that actually feels like it makes sense to you and helps you-

   4. DRDebbie Reber11:20

      Mm-hmm

   5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy11:20

      ... move things forward. And I know for people I see as parents of deeply feeling kids, it's one of the first things I say, and it's so relieving. It's just, "There's nothing wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with your kid. You need a different way of understanding them." That's the start of probably a set of slightly different interventions. And, like, you're gonna feel better as soon as you even have that new understanding and know that there's a path. We think we are all gonna feel better when something changes, but I think we all feel better when we have some, like, aha moment that feels new and useful, and that resonates.

   6. DRDebbie Reber11:50

      Mm-hmm.

   7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy11:50

      And then we have hope. And I know that's what you give so, so many parents.

   8. DRDebbie Reber11:55

      Yeah, that sense of feeling seen is... It's just- It's so incredibly powerful because I think so many parents do isolate initially because of fear. Not only fear of the unknown, but fear of their children being, you know, stigmatized or having this label associated, and what is that gonna mean? And we can really just get so caught up in that. So to, to be seen and understood and realize, "Okay, I've got this. There's nothing wrong with me. There's nothing wrong with my kid," to take that anxiety away can be really powerful.

7. 12:27 – 13:50

   Tilt #1: Question everything you thought you knew about parenting

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy12:27

      So in your, in your book, you talk about these tilts, right? These kind of tangible, doable shifts parents of differently wired kids can make in their lives for kind of everyone's, the whole family's benefit, and there are 18 of them. I don't know if we'll get to all them. We probably won't, but if it's okay, I'd love to, like, name one, you know, name a few, and I'd love to jump into them. So starting with the first, question everything you knew about parenting. Tell me more.

   2. DRDebbie Reber12:55

      Yeah, I think we have to start there because, again, we go into this with this vision for the parent we're gonna be, the educational philosophy, you know, whether it's Montessori or Waldorf, or, you know, what's gonna work for my family, public school, private school, all of these ideas, and who are kids going to be? And we can cling to that vision so tightly, and it really has nothing to do with the human that comes into the world, this human that we're actually raising.

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy13:23

      Yeah.

   4. DRDebbie Reber13:24

      And so to start by just questioning everything and really examining, you know, what is true about this child, and maybe I need to ha- be more flexible about what might actually work. But a lot of this stuff is, i- it's really ground deep into us from our own childhoods, from, you know, our family culture, and so it can feel really disruptive to, to just kind of throw all the rules out.

8. 13:50 – 19:06

   “There’s no such thing as reproduction”: grieving fantasies and meeting the real child

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy13:50

      Yeah. You know what? That reminds me of, um, Andrew Solomon's book, Far From The Tree. To me, I think every parent should read the prologue, and it always strikes me, his first line is, "There's no such thing as reproduction." And what he says is, "The word reproduction is a wish. It's a fantasy."

   2. DRDebbie Reber14:08

      Mm.

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy14:09

      "It's our desire on some level to live forever. We do not reproduce. We produce. Your child is not a reproduction of anything." And I think what you and I kind of probably would... One of many things I think we'd agree on is so many of our struggles with these kids come from that difference of reproduction-

   4. DRDebbie Reber14:28

      Mm-hmm

   5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy14:28

      ... versus production, and I know I'm not immune to it. Like, we all have this fantasy, right? In some ways, we're gonna live forever. Our best qualities are gonna be in our kids. They're not gonna have our worst, and nothing's gonna be that different. And instead, what he says about parenting, he goes, "Parenting is being forever cast into a relationship with a stranger."

   6. DRDebbie Reber14:44

      Mm. So good. [laughs]

   7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy14:45

      Sobering, but so good.

   8. DRDebbie Reber14:48

      Yeah.

   9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy14:48

      And maybe we don't say that, 'cause people would have [laughs] fewer children if you're like, "What? I don't know if I'm gonna do that." But you have this stranger that is produced, and you're like, "Who is this kid, and how do I get to know them?" And, you know, just curiosity.

   10. DRDebbie Reber15:03

       Mm-hmm.

   11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy15:03

       And I think maybe one of the things you're saying with throw out everything you know about parenting is, like, kind of these, these ideas about who our kid is going to be as some reflection of the best version of us-

   12. DRDebbie Reber15:15

       Yeah

   13. BKDr. Becky Kennedy15:15

       ... we have to really question that. That can really get in our way, and it's, it's so hard. It's so hard, right?

   14. DRDebbie Reber15:21

       It is so hard, 'cause our ego is really involved in our... just how we're perceived in the world. It's so tricky. I love that, uh, that quote. I read that book very many years ago.

   15. BKDr. Becky Kennedy15:30

       Right?

   16. DRDebbie Reber15:31

       Yeah. It's great.

   17. BKDr. Becky Kennedy15:32

       It's so good. I would actually take a picture on my Kindle of the prologue, and I would read it to a lot of parents-

   18. DRDebbie Reber15:37

       Mm

   19. BKDr. Becky Kennedy15:37

       ... because obviously he's such a brilliant writer, and that idea of... Like, I just think it does, it always hits me hard. Like, "Why is my kid doing this? I would never," and I was like, "Wait, wait. Right, because my kids..." Like, to some degree, it's helpful, like, my kid's a stranger. Like, why are th- Like, I could ask the same question, but in a very different tone. Like, why are they having such a hard time? There must be a reason. I'm gonna assume that. I'm gonna do what I always like to use. What is my most generous interpretation? The why is actually a helpful question if it comes from curiosity. But when it comes from these preconceived ideas and our wishes and our fantasies, then I know, for me at least, it's like an angry why. It's kind of like, "Why are you not being the version of the kid I always thought you would be?" [laughs]

   20. DRDebbie Reber16:16

       Yeah.

   21. BKDr. Becky Kennedy16:16

       And when I articulate that, I'm like, "Wow, that's offensive." Like, I don't think that's useful, but that, that comes through, I know, for me sometimes, too.

   22. DRDebbie Reber16:23

       Yeah, absolutely, and I think it's good to say that, because I think we can then have shame if we, if we don't share that out loud. I mean, I hear from parents all the time, especially around sports, right? Like, if... You know, I was an athlete, and my husband was a soccer player. Like, of course I assumed I was gonna be standing on the sidelines of all kinds of sporting events and cheering and all of that stuff, and my kid is not an athlete. Like, you know, going for a walk is a big effort at this point. Um, and so that's something, there's sadness around that, too, you know, because we associate so much meaning to those experiences and how important we think they are, and so then we perceive our kid's gonna miss out on this. And so we really have to do this, this deep work to understand where our pain points are.

   23. BKDr. Becky Kennedy17:07

       I think that's exactly right, and I think that idea of, like, the thing that actually helps us see our kid a little more clearly for who they are versus who we'd wanted is actually allowing for that very real loss. Like, that is loss for me. Like, I would've loved... If, if it's true, like, I would've loved to stand on the sidelines. Like-

   24. DRDebbie Reber17:22

       Mm

   25. BKDr. Becky Kennedy17:22

       ... not only do I think maybe my kid would've liked it, but if I kind of like, "Wait, my kid isn't me, so that's almost irrelevant," it's okay to say, "I would've liked that." Like, I would've loved if my kid was an amazing soccer player. Like, I would've actually loved that, and that is not my experience as a parent, and I'm, I'm actually really allowed to have feelings about that.

   26. DRDebbie Reber17:39

       Yeah.

   27. BKDr. Becky Kennedy17:39

       I can give myself permission, and the more I do that, probably the less I'll act them out on my kid, but I think that- that's really important.

   28. DRDebbie Reber17:45

       Yeah. Absolutely.

   29. BKDr. Becky Kennedy17:48

       [outro music] Hey, Good Inside listeners. So sometimes with parenting, a podcast does the trick, and sometimes with parenting, we need a bit more. And I wanted to be sure you knew that we're set up to help you in those trickier times.

   30. BKDr. Becky Kennedy18:04

       The Good Inside Membership platform is your parenting encyclopedia, coupled with a community of parents and experts you trust, which means that no matter what you're going through, we've got you covered. And then we take it a step further, because I know that we're people who don't just want to solve a problem and return to baseline. We want to raise our baselines, right? And this is what we really do together: reduce triggers, learn to set boundaries, and access that sturdy leader that I know is inside all of us. It's all there when you're looking for that next step. And until then, please do check out goodinside.com/podcast. Scroll down to the Ask Dr. Becky section at the bottom and let me know what you wanna talk about in future podcast episodes. Okay, here's another tilt. Parent from a place of possibility

9. 19:06 – 20:49

   Tilt #2: Moving from fear to possibility (and why fear dominates)

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy19:06

      instead of fear. I'd love to hear about this with differently wired kids.

   2. DRDebbie Reber19:11

      Yeah, I mean, there's just a lot of fear. I think there's so much fear in all parenting, right? So we don't own this as parents of neurodivergent kids, but I think our path is so less clear at so many steps along the way. Like, even from a safety perspective, there's a wh- there's fear for, for a lot of parents because, you know, we might have kids who, who elope or don't have good street smarts, and so, like, building independence can be really scary. But just the fact that there are so many unknowns about what's gonna happen next year, what's gonna happen next week in this school, what does this mean if my kid is on screens all the time, and I read the research and, you know... And we know that these kids have really long, you know, launch pads, I guess, or runways, you know. A- and w- statistically, these kids have a harder time as adults with mental health challenges, with staying employed, all of those things. And so as a parent, you know, we don't want those outcomes. But it's really hard to not pivot to that place of fear. And so when I talk about pivoting from fear to possibility, it's, it's like a daily practice. It's something we have to always be checking in on ourselves, and checking in on our motivation behind our interactions with our kids, uh, the things that we're prioritizing for them, the pressure we're putting on our kids. Is that coming from fear? And if it is, how can we kind of-

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy20:34

      Mm

   4. DRDebbie Reber20:34

      ... shift it and think from a place of curiosity, you know, which you mentioned earlier, I think is such a great word, um, curiosity and possibility. And when we can show up from that place, it's just gonna feel so much better for everybody.

10. 20:49 – 24:25

    Same boundary, different energy: punishment vs protection

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy20:49

       You know, I was just talking about this the other day in, in a, in a workshop because I was saying our kids really do feel the place we're at when we intervene because sometimes the intervention, if someone described it simply concretely, it would be the same. But for example, I was talking about the difference of punishing and protecting our kids, especially our older kids. Punishment, I think, is something you do to your kid. Protection is something you do for your kid. On the surface, it might look like taking away their phone for a week based on something that happened, right? Where punishing would sound like, um, "I can't believe you did something so stupid. You know we don't do that in our family. I'm taking away your phone for a week"

    2. DRDebbie Reber21:28

       Mm-hmm

    3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy21:28

       ... you know? Where protection would be, "Hey, I'm kind of concerned about this text message I saw, and I feel like we have to, like, figure some stuff out together. I am gonna be taking away your phone for a week, and look, I know that stinks. I know it's a big deal. I don't take it lightly. I also don't take lightly your kind of safety, your digital safety, and it's my responsibility to teach you some things." So on the surface, it's interesting. It's not... Like, people are like, "You don't believe in punishment?" Like, it's kind of silly. Like, "So anything goes?" Like, I, I never said that. Actually, the intervention might concretely be the same.

    4. DRDebbie Reber21:55

       Mm-hmm.

    5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy21:55

       But our kids will know whether we're doing something to them from, by the way, just our own frustration or fear, or whether I'm doing something for them because I actually believe in their capability, I believe they're a good kid, and I believe part of my job is setting up a structure to help bring that out because I believe in their possibility and I have hope. And I, I, I just really wanna give that example to parents because I think when people say, "Oh, instead of, like, punishing" Which is often from fear, right?

    6. DRDebbie Reber22:19

       Mm-hmm.

    7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy22:20

       Like, an immediate punishment, I always say, like, in the real world, we punish our kids because we just don't know what to do in the moment, and we randomly say something that, by the way, we later take back and always undermine our own authority. It's like, "You can't watch TV for a week" And then I'm like, "Wait, did I say a week? Uh, I don't, I don't really... No, I don't think I said a week. I think I said a night" You know? And my kid's like, "Oh, my goodness" You know? And the idea of seeing possibility to me is kind of the same thing as best coaches do to their athletes. They're like, "Wow, my, my basketball player's really missing a lot of free throws." Like, oh, like, I could be like, "I'm worried you're gonna miss every shot for the rest of the, you know, season" Or I'm like, "Wait, their shot looks a little off. Like, what's going on there? Are they nervous? Is it actually their form? Is it, I don't know, their muscles?" Like, if I see them as being capable of developing some new skill-

    8. DRDebbie Reber23:04

       Mm-hmm

    9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy23:04

       ... then there's a lot of possibility and hope, and I think we all feel that difference.

    10. DRDebbie Reber23:08

        Yeah. It changes everything, and our kids are so attuned to us, you know? They know, they know-

    11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy23:14

        Mm-hmm

    12. DRDebbie Reber23:14

        ... what, what our intention is, even if the words coming out, out of our mouth, uh, are saying something different.

    13. BKDr. Becky Kennedy23:20

        That's exactly right. With differently wired kids, where, where do you see a lot of fear? Where is, like, where are parents very fearful?

    14. DRDebbie Reber23:27

        I really think it is about the, the future unknowns. I think that if a lot of... You know, I just was, uh, on a call with families in my community last night, and there's so much school refusal right now, and the anxiety, and mental health challenges, and just not thriving, really, socially, uh, all of these things. And we see the potential in our kids, and we know how incredibly bright they are and how they have so much to contribute to the world. And I think the fear is around them not thriving long-term, and then worrying, "Am I gonna make a mistake? Am I making the wrong choice?" Like, parents get paralyzed at every-

    15. BKDr. Becky Kennedy24:04

        Mm

    16. DRDebbie Reber24:04

        ... juncture because there's still this idea that if I make the right choice, or if I can control this, then I can guarantee this outcome. And that can be paraly- there's no right choice to make. We're feeling our way through this at every stage. But I think it is that fear that- Our kids ultimately aren't gonna make it.

11. 24:25 – 28:47

    The “fast-forward error”: catastrophizing today into a lifelong future

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy24:25

       Yeah. Can I ask you a question? You know, one of the kind of ultimate, I feel like, thought errors parents in general make-- I don't know if it's a error, it feels so harsh, but kind of this thought pattern that ends up being not so useful to us, is something I call the fast-forward error. So I see my kid today struggling with something, and I fast-forward usually not even, like, three months.

    2. DRDebbie Reber24:47

       Mm-hmm.

    3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy24:47

       You know, I don't know, I see my kid isn't listening to the music teacher, is, like, hitting their sibling, and I'm like, "Stop, that hurts," and they look at me, and they do it again. And I'm like, I see them as, like, a sociopath as a 30-year-old, and then I respond to my four-year-old, or my eight-year-old, whatever it is, as if they are that sociopathic 30-year-old. Not to say that would even be useful, but, like, it's like I fast-forward to the future, I have an idea I'm worried about, but then I accumulate all the things that would have led to that, and I feel all that today, and all of that is infused to this small moment in front of me.

    4. DRDebbie Reber25:21

       Yeah. Totally, totally relate to that. Um, even-

    5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy25:25

       [laughs]

    6. DRDebbie Reber25:25

       ... you know, having this idea when my kid was three or four, and I was having a really rough day, uh, very emotional, and my child was like, "Oh, can I ha- can I have a piece of bread?" Like, completely didn't track that I was upset. I'm like, "Who is this kid?" Like, what is wrong with this kid? Um, of course, now I know my child is incredibly, deeply empathetic. Um, but yeah, I think that is very true, and one of the things I talk to my families about all the time is to just remember that our kids are always, always, always changing. And sometimes they're changing, you know, in zigzag. It's not all full steam ahead.

    7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy26:00

       Yes. I think that is one of the hardest things. I actually remember that very viscerally from when I had a baby, where I remember there were, like, you know, three days in a row where they didn't eat, or they had slept through the night for a while, and then they didn't. And the way I always described it is it felt like whatever was happening today, like, was the forever reality. Like, I have a kid who doesn't eat. But then, like, someone who knew me well would be like, "I was with you f- like, four days ago. Like, I'm not trying to invalidate that this is hard. That's just, like, that's not what I saw," right? And I think that's why these stages feel so hard. A stage would never feel hard if you were grounded in the fact that it was just a stage. Like, it wouldn't. So inherently, the trick it does on our brain is it makes us think this is the forever, which of course is a desperate, awful place to be in. And I love that you're saying, like, you actually have enough years of experience now as a parent, right, to say, like, "I've kind of experienced enough stages where my body kind of, like, trusts that maybe more than it used to." Love that.

    8. DRDebbie Reber27:04

       So my kid is 19, as I mentioned earlier, and is on this gap semester program in Ireland. And, um, honestly, like even a year ago, even three months ago, I wouldn't have been able to say that this was gonna happen. Um, and that's just such a reminder of how our kids are always changing. And as part of that, I've just been, over the past few years, really realizing that I keep waiting to get to some stage where things are gonna be just easy, and oh, we've made it. We're, we're there. And so I've spent a lot of time trying to hurry through what I'm in right now. And so I've been really working on intentionally just being present for this, because this is, you know, this is life. This is what we're doing right now. I'm parenting this kid right now.

    9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy27:47

       Yeah. And I, I think what's really beautiful about that is, like, I just know when we all have, I don't know, 30, 40-year-old children, let's say, I feel like we're gonna wanna say, "I had a relationship with my 10-year-old. I had a relationship with my 11-year-old, with my 12-year-old, with my 13-year-old," not, "Oh my goodness, I kind of fast-forwarded till 40. Here we are at 40, and I kind of missed out. Like, who were they? Like, what, what could we have done?" Not to say, not to be Pollyanna, it's not easy, you know? But just, this is where my kid is today, and what's a version of connecting to my kid today? And the irony, I always say, is to me, with the fast-forward error we all do, is the best thing for our kids down the line is to see what's going on with them today and try to meet their needs and build the skills they need today. So you're actually kind of in some ways, like, killing two birds with one stone. Anyway, Debbie, here's my question. Like, we wanna keep our kids safe, right? But safe doesn't mean always comfortable. And so what is this line between secure, safe, but

12. 28:47 – 30:21

    Safety vs comfort: scaffolding, attunement, and the “just-right challenge”

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy28:47

       on the other hand, something that I can't imagine is good for any kid is kind of some version of, like, over-catered to or coddled. How do you see that?

    2. DRDebbie Reber28:55

       It's such a good question, and it's, uh, something we talk a lot about. You know, I think of scaffolding when, when you ask this question. I think it is so important for us as parents to-- I talk about becoming fluent in who your child is, and that means really understanding them on such a deep level that you read their nonverbal cues, you, you c- you're attuned to their nervous system. You can kind of see where their threshold is, which might change from minute to minute, hour to hour, day to day, and always be trying to find that just right challenge, right? So we wanna be, of course, stretching our kids, and part of the job is looking for those windows of opportunity. And so I, like, I personally have gotten so good at noticing when there's an opening. I'm like, "Okay," like, "what am I gonna squeeze into this opening, and how can I connect some dots or help my child, you know, feel pushed a little bit further outside their comfort zone?" And we wanna do those things at the right time. If I do that when my kid has come home, and they're already activated, and they're kind of in shutdown mode, there's no learning that's gonna happen. So we wanna stay really attuned and always be looking for those opportunities. They might not happen that often, but we're always playing the, the long game here, right? So I always try to zoom out and remember the bigger goal and looking for opportunities to Whether it's executive function or emotional regulation to kind of stretch those skills.

13. 30:21 – 32:11

    Maintaining high expectations for growth without denying real differences

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy30:21

       Yeah, and to me, I just wanna emphasize, I think this is so important because I think too often in my private practice I saw parents who'd come in talking about their kids, um, and they, v- for various terms. They have ADHD, they're differently wired, they're, you know, they're deeply feeling, and so they can't do X, Y, Z. And I say, "Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa." Like, I, I, I'm not even gonna debate the nuance of whether they can or can't, but if this is the framework, then we're constantly reflecting to these kids, "You are not capable of learning." Now, maybe your learning's gonna be different, maybe your outcomes are gonna be different, but we definitely don't wanna limit any kid's sense of their competence based on any, you know, one specific term or, you know, any trait. And so to me, there's this nuance where we need a framework to understand our kids. Some kids are different. Like I said, I had these kids in my private practice. I have one of these kids myself. Their pathway is gonna be very different. Like, just like some kids take longer to learn how to swim, like, some kids take longer to regulate their emotion or take on challenges. 100%. To me, side by side with a nuanced understanding of our kid is just holding onto the idea of like, my kid is going to be able to overcome obstacles, and I'm going to both understand them and kind of reflect back that I see them as a kid who's capable of kind of growth in that way.

    2. DRDebbie Reber31:40

       Yeah. Yeah, and looking for those opportunities. When, when our child does something, um, that was really brave or resilient, saying, "Oh my gosh, how, how did you do that? I noticed you just did that. That is so cool. You're really developing that, that trait, and it's really exciting to see." So we can be making those connections in real time so that they can really start internalizing those messages.

    3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy32:03

       Awesome. Well, thank you for all of this, Debbie. Is there anything today we haven't covered that you're like, "Ugh, I'd hate to end without saying this to parents"?

14. 32:11 – 36:43

    Closing guidance: your child isn’t broken—and don’t walk on eggshells

    1. DRDebbie Reber32:11

       I mean, the thing that I always like to share with parents, especially parents who are with younger kiddos on this journey and may be feeling overwhelmed, is just to, um, remember that your child is not broken. They do not need to be fixed. And I personally feel like having these more complex kids, they demand so much from us as parents, but that presents this opportunity to have even a deeper connection with them and to also grow more ourselves as parents. So if you can lean into it, it's an incredible journey.

    2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy32:42

       Well, thank you so much, and I appreciate, like, everything you're doing, all of your guidance, so helpful and so important.

    3. DRDebbie Reber32:49

       Oh, thank you so much, Becky. It was such an honor to chat with you today, and same back to you.

    4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy32:54

       Thank you. I have one final thought I wanna share. There's really this nuance in my mind in approaching our differently wired kids, or our kids I often think are deeply feeling kids. These kids go 0 to 60. They tend to push away help when they need it the most. They tend to become very overwhelmed by emotion or even talking about emotion. And to me, this nuance is we have to understand these kids and who they are. That is so important. They have to be understood, and they're tricky. And at the same time, we cannot walk on eggshells around these kids. Because when we walk on eggshells and we kind of let these kids, our deeply feeling kids' emotionality essentially be the pilot of the plane, what our kids actually feel from us is, "Oh my goodness, my feelings are so overwhelming to me, and holy moly, they are overwhelming to my parent. They are so overwhelming to the adults around me that the adults around me won't even be the authority I need. They won't even set boundaries. They're not even really fully in charge of decisions. They're kind of putting me in the driver's seat, and that is so not where I'm supposed to be, and I am so scared. I'm even more scared of myself. My feelings might actually be as overwhelming and toxic as I worry they are." And for all of you here who want a little more guidance on that, I just wanna make sure you know where to get it. My Deeply Feeling Kid workshop without a doubt addresses this, but I just added actually a new short video to our member library because I wanted to get at this specifically, and it's all about how to not walk on eggshells around your kid. Whether you have a deeply feeling kid, a not deeply feeling kid, a differently wired kid, what you think is a neurotypical kid, there are moments when we walk on eggshells, and having an understanding of why we don't wanna do this and what to do instead, to me, is game-changing in the family. So how not to walk on eggshells is now there in the library. I'm so excited that you know where to access it. Also, if you wanna learn more about Debbie, definitely check out her most recent book, Differently Wired: A Parent's Guide to Raising an Atypical Child With Confidence and Hope, and her Tilt Parenting podcast. Thanks to Airbnb. Remember, your home could be worth more than you think. Find out more at airbnb.com/host. Thank you for listening. To share a story or ask me a question, go to goodinside.com/podcast, or you could write me at podcast@goodinside.com. Parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world, and you deserve resources and support so you feel empowered and confident for this very important job you hold. I'm so excited to share Good Inside Membership. It's the first platform that brings together content and experts you trust with a global community of like-valued parents. It's game-changing and built for a busy parent who wants to make the most out of the few minutes they have. Good Inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Nuzum at Magnificent Noise. Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhi, Julia Knapp, and Kristen Mueller. I would also like to thank Erica Belsky, Mary Panico, Brooke Zandt, and the rest of the Good Inside team And one last thing before I let you go. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves, "Even as I struggle, and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside." [outro music]

Episode duration: 39:07